Sometimes when a road intersects another road, the name of the road changes.
I noticed that in the Greater Toronto area, there appears to be 3 ways of signing such an intersection.
1) Toronto: Both signs are on the far side, no arrows.
(https://i.imgur.com/XBRjfpq.png)
2) York Region (and Durham Region): Sign for the road on the left is on the near side, with arrows.
(https://i.imgur.com/Tq7YJOc.png)
3) Mississauga (and Brampton, Oakville, Burlington): One sign with both names and arrows.
(https://i.imgur.com/ggOymVe.png)
Personally, I don't really like the one sign approach, as the names are shrunk to the point where sometimes it is very difficult to read.
Which configuration do you prefer? Is there another approach that might be better? Also, feel free to post examples from your own jurisdiction
Quote from: andrepoiy on March 25, 2022, 02:53:45 PM
Sometimes when a road intersects another road, the name of the road changes.
I noticed that in the Greater Toronto area, there appears to be 3 ways of signing such an intersection.
1) Toronto: Both signs are on the far side, no arrows.
[snipped]
2) York Region (and Durham Region): Sign for the road on the left is on the near side, with arrows.
[snipped]
3) Mississauga (and Brampton, Oakville, Burlington): One sign with both names and arrows.
[snipped]
Personally, I don't really like the one sign approach, as the names are shrunk to the point where sometimes it is very difficult to read.
Which configuration do you prefer? Is there another approach that might be better? Also, feel free to post examples from your own jurisdiction
I think in the case of that, all you need to do is make a bigger sign. The two other approaches might be unclear to some drivers, especially the second one. To me, the sign on the mast draws attention away from the street blade on the near side, and the arrows are small.
We don't always get overhead street signs here.
Sometimes we have overhead signs with arrows:
https://goo.gl/maps/2kBCQdHpbMwoeMLb8 <--I think these are nice and clear
https://goo.gl/maps/BMmVZWh8W4kG8mmm6 <--I think this one is poorly-positioned in an area that already has lots of signs and visual clutter
https://goo.gl/maps/7z7Z8Ja6c7EJiFeK8 <--The one on the other side of that second intersection has less visual clutter but is less clear than the first ones above
Sometimes the overhead sign has a separator line:
https://goo.gl/maps/ceXa3jYdq8YgmBWB7
Sometimes there'll be a sign posted in advance of the intersection:
https://goo.gl/maps/LzcuUUj3DGqgxqeV8 (that intersection also has a blue overhead sign with arrows)
Sometimes, you're expected to spot the tiny sign mounted to a pole somewhere:
https://goo.gl/maps/EeWAD2wBb7avYow78
https://goo.gl/maps/E9UTrRUffdvGDTYH8 <--good luck with that one
On the whole, I think I prefer the mast-arm-mounted ones with arrows because they minimize the amount of looking around needed to find the street names. The advance green sign is even better, but it's not practical on all routes for various reasons.
I like the New England way: No signs.
These are the two approaches that I think are common in the Seattle region:
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51959915627_df6ddc0b20_o.png)
Street blade with name change (https://flic.kr/p/2naw9Eg) by Jacob Root (https://www.flickr.com/photos/62537709@N03/), on Flickr
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51961474560_f4d92feb0c_o.png)
Street blade with name change (https://flic.kr/p/2naE95q) by Jacob Root (https://www.flickr.com/photos/62537709@N03/), on Flickr
I'm used to the version where both street names are indicated at the usual place on the mastarm (like the last image Jake Root posted). So long as the text is an acceptable size, this is the least surprising way of handling it and thus most clear.
For ground-level installs, Norman will ensure that the text is of sufficient size by putting each street name on its own blade (https://www.google.com/maps/@35.2088533,-97.494309,3a,26.5y,254.21h,91.07t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sAsmdjdHFnH5ixpidpe7lGw!2e0!5s20161001T000000!7i13312!8i6656), thus making a three-high stack of blades. (Sadly, this particular stack has been replaced and the newest install omits the sign for one direction, but I've seen other instances of this style around town, I just don't remember where.)
Madison, WI has a mix: both the "one sign on each side" (https://www.google.com/maps/@43.0736765,-89.4340352,3a,37.5y,125.57h,95.68t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sULvXvAVeerIRHh4ClF8Hhg!2e0!7i16384!8i8192?hl=en) and the "both names on one sign" (https://www.google.com/maps/@43.0632712,-89.4006805,3a,37.5y,8.6h,89.75t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sXW1Cnv31GBNN7V4bHTzBkg!2e0!7i16384!8i8192?hl=en) setups can be seen throughout that city.
I'm good with any approach that:
- Mentions both road names
- Has arrows indicating which leg of the road has which name
- Has both road names clearly visible and in sufficiently large lettering
- Is otherwise MUTCD compliant
I tend not to prefer street blades posted at overhead locations on the near side of an intersection. You can't see them from the stop bar.
At one point, Seattle's overhead signs showed the street name to the right only (https://www.google.com/maps/@47.6257163,-122.3388173,3a,76.8y,98.23h,94.43t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s52iO6hsPYbtlZ7M69ylvwQ!2e0!7i16384!8i8192?hl=en), with only the side-mounted signs showing the other street name. This seems... less than ideal.
Thankfully, later installations have switched to using the standard stacked design, even when it doesn't seem to be super necessary (https://www.google.com/maps/@47.6017352,-122.3307685,3a,36.3y,101.73h,97.77t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s0xCezUYf13HWfB9iBCQCqg!2e0!7i16384!8i8192?hl=en).
Nevada's typical way of dealing with this at signalized intersections tends to be to just show the street name on each side of the street with the typical double-sided lighted street name signs, sometimes with arrows.
- Sands Ave/Twain Ave @ Paradise Rd, Las Vegas (https://goo.gl/maps/HF4jdwXboajAfAGR6)
- Rampart Blvd/Ft Apache Rd @ Charleston Blvd, Las Vegas (https://goo.gl/maps/cZ9kNNtXv9oeb7oUA)
- Sunset Rd/Sunset Way/Mtn Vist St, Henderson (https://goo.gl/maps/d9jtMC1J6mk6G8dE6) (Sunset Rd takes a 90° turn here; this also shows Henderson's unique-for-NV SNS mounting style)
- Fremont St/Chisholm Trl @ US 95A (I-80 Bus), Fernley (https://goo.gl/maps/q4QnFE9FB9rmmUQC6)
- Sparks Blvd/Highland Ranch Pkwy @ Pyramid Hwy (SR 445), Sparks (https://goo.gl/maps/dukDSNf3jbGASnUE9)
- Veterans' Pkwy/Sparks Blvd @ Greg St, Sparks (https://goo.gl/maps/entVsDJEDNEGXydf8) (newer, has arrows)
- Evans Ave/Socrates Dr @ McCarran Blvd (SR 659), Reno (https://goo.gl/maps/kzZdMmaiheVZhN9u9)
Although one thing they're doing in Reno lately is attaching the LED street name sign directly to the mast arm (instead of it being free-swinging from the mast arm), so it's only a one-sided sign. This isn't all bad, but isn't helpful where a street name changes...like here where Sierra St turns into Comstock Dr at N Virginia St (https://goo.gl/maps/72uAEhQScmpNMDDT9), and there's no indication that the road name on the left side of the intersection is different. Sparks is also attaching the LED SNS to the mast arm now, but at least they're using a larger sign (with arrows) to indicate the name change, like here at Kietzke Lane/Battle Born Way at Galletti Way (https://goo.gl/maps/CAaQ7Xb9Cajv9f7N9).
Here (https://www.google.com/maps/@41.7285739,-87.5428184,3a,75y,14.66h,92.18t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sI0vvAWnGGpd0w6Feh3aVhw!2e0!7i16384!8i8192) is the ultimate example in Chicago, where both streets change names at the same time (Lake Shore Drive becomes Harbor Avenue, and Mackinaw Avenue becomes Ewing Avenue). In both cases, the overhead signs are marked with arrows.
I think the short answer is that NY is all over the place with this. Outside of the cities, few signals had mast arms until recently, so street sign blades on mast arms are generally a more recent development.
On lightpost only (https://goo.gl/maps/WEq8Tc6qJepHka4eA) (this is probably most common)
On lightpost with arrows (https://goo.gl/maps/tYCPfUhV7HuqYzpU8)
On mast arm (old style) (https://goo.gl/maps/y1CQZhks3vZ5MfUh8)
On mast arm (new install) (https://goo.gl/maps/X23oTQJZorBucfnK7)
On a separate advance LGS (https://goo.gl/maps/jrALBwpPpd3UJzEt9)
On a separate LGS at the intersection (https://goo.gl/maps/bX89NNdjAYWzzZr3A)
And just for good measure, in case that last one was too big for you, how about this one (https://goo.gl/maps/v64EUCsYfCtb8DRy6)? It's an interesting one because the road actually changes names here (https://goo.gl/maps/wbFYUjP5nPsDGPVF8) (at the town line), not at the intersection -
Having both names on one sign with arrows is the only good way of doing it. Drivers only look for signs on their side of the road. That is how it is done around here. In Florida, they do it the other way, and it makes finding the street that you are looking for almost impossible
Sign it on the cross street on the signal.
Quote from: epzik8 on March 31, 2022, 06:49:29 AM
Sign it on the cross street on the signal.
But then what do you do when there's no mast arm?
Even worse can be an intersection where a named roadway turns left (or right), and other names continue straight and to the right (left). If you're approaching one of these following the through road, it's important to know that the through road turns, and you may need to know any or all of "<-- Road A ^^ Road B Road C -->". (If you're approaching on a non-through road, they can list both, usually using a bent two-headed arrow for the through road.)
The one in my current town takes the approach of ignoring the straight-ahead road's name, both on the median advance LGS and on the mast arm signage. They also don't draw any special attention to the fact that if you want to stay on "Las Posas Rd", you need to turn at the next signal. Definitely not the best solution.
Another that I know of does much better, with a fairly-large advance GS that actually lists all three roads with the appropriate arrows, the left mast arm has "<-- Road A Road B ^^", and the right mast arm has "^^ Road B Road C -->".
^ That reminds me of this intersection (https://goo.gl/maps/AX4kShrBDwiz4LkdA), where Tobey Rd makes a left turn and has a short overlap with Stone Rd. Not often you see two road names overlap when neither road is numbered.
Quote from: GaryA on March 31, 2022, 12:16:40 PM
Even worse can be an intersection where a named roadway turns left (or right), and other names continue straight and to the right (left). If you're approaching one of these following the through road, it's important to know that the through road turns, and you may need to know any or all of "<-- Road A ^^ Road B Road C -->". (If you're approaching on a non-through road, they can list both, usually using a bent two-headed arrow for the through road.)
The one in my current town takes the approach of ignoring the straight-ahead road's name, both on the median advance LGS and on the mast arm signage. They also don't draw any special attention to the fact that if you want to stay on "Las Posas Rd", you need to turn at the next signal. Definitely not the best solution.
Another that I know of does much better, with a fairly-large advance GS that actually lists all three roads with the appropriate arrows, the left mast arm has "<-- Road A Road B ^^", and the right mast arm has "^^ Road B Road C -->".
It should be pretty easy to adapt MUTCD 2D-10 to such a situation. Here's a quick mock-up I did by modifying an existing D3-2 option.
(https://i.imgur.com/PUs9JDT.png)
See also the signage on the mast arm in the link I just posted.
Basically, a street-blade version of this (https://goo.gl/maps/tqRxfebNMaHnWYXJ7) or this (https://goo.gl/maps/frXEAPQ8V8KCm6Gq7).
Here's how Norman handles that situation: https://www.google.com/maps/@35.2065526,-97.4107943,3a,19.2y,31.04h,89.92t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s-bHUTRrvaSELu4QVyeASiQ!2e0!7i16384!8i8192 (pan around to see how the other streets at this intersection are signed). The arrows change appropriately based on which side of the blade you're facing.