I'm curious how common it is for an undivided road to have turn lanes in both directions at once due to closely spaced left turns in opposite directions... not necessarily at an interchange, but just between any two signalized intersections.
This seems pretty rare around here, but I can think of two examples:
NY 33A/NY 386 (https://goo.gl/maps/yWWGAyTB6dNopem49) between Wegmans Plaza and NY 386 North
NY 96 (https://goo.gl/maps/3Ebi1NqKU1gFsgQu6) between NY 251 and Lane Rd
Obviously quite common at diamond interchanges, so I will ignore those.
One example that immediately comes to mind is South Tacoma Way between 100th and WA-512, in Lakewood (Google Maps (https://www.google.com/maps/@47.1653224,-122.4838975,374m/data=!3m1!1e3)):
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51964754101_f976ae4d26_o.png)
South Tacoma Way Double Left Turns (https://flic.kr/p/2naWWYe) by Jacob Root (https://www.flickr.com/photos/62537709@N03/), on Flickr
Quote from: jakeroot on March 27, 2022, 02:31:27 PM
One example that immediately comes to mind is South Tacoma Way between 100th and WA-512, in Lakewood (Google Maps (https://www.google.com/maps/@47.1653224,-122.4838975,374m/data=!3m1!1e3)):
That's an interesting one, because of the double turn lanes in both directions but also the dividers down the center of the road. I wonder how many people have attempted a left turn out of one of the businesses and encountered an unexpected bump.
Quote from: webny99 on March 27, 2022, 03:59:59 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on March 27, 2022, 02:31:27 PM
One example that immediately comes to mind is South Tacoma Way between 100th and WA-512, in Lakewood (Google Maps (https://www.google.com/maps/@47.1653224,-122.4838975,374m/data=!3m1!1e3)):
That's an interesting one, because of the double turn lanes in both directions but also the dividers down the center of the road. I wonder how many people have attempted a left turn out of one of the businesses and encountered an unexpected bump.
That's the other thing that's a bit annoying, because of the divider, lots of U-turns would, at least theoretically, be required, yet neither intersection permits them (there is a right turn overlap with each left turn). Honestly, the amount of random middle-of-the-road U-turns that happen around there is pretty hilarious, it's quite common.
The only example I've seen this outside of interchanges was when my family went to Pensacola when I was in 7th grade.
US 98 Business, on Navy Boulevard, has two extremely long left turn lanes instead of a center lane setup. Why? I don't know.
https://www.google.com/maps/@30.4102334,-87.2642374,206m/data=!3m1!1e3
US 422 in Warren, OH has left turn lanes in both directions: https://goo.gl/maps/zZZEuZoBFAYKgTBv7
Because of the sight line issues the offset turn lanes cause, the left turns are protected-only. Warren was looking at reconfiguring the turn lanes to allow converting things to protected-permitted operation.
Another Washington example: 100th Street NE (https://goo.gl/maps/fE3RdikbehEpV8fh8) in Marysville. There's a left turn lane for the free turn onto Shoultes Road. As you can imagine, it backs up onto State Avenue often, so I was disappointed to see no redesign planned as part of the widening/bridge replacement in the area.
A similar situation on Maple Road (https://goo.gl/maps/1j2S3zCPSpopPzfz7) in Lynnwood.
Here's one in South Jordan, UT... although this one is really weird because the directions are actually reversed, with a maybe questionable use of a yellow line to separate them:
https://www.google.com/maps/@40.5419933,-112.0119951,58m/data=!3m1!1e3
Market Street between US 130 North and US 130 South: https://goo.gl/maps/bVPUDAUgQDWRFwVW9
Mall Drive between NJ 38 & a jughandle/entrance to the mall complex (1 NB vs 2 SB to boot): https://goo.gl/maps/ixSvfLaMoRQ72VVR7
Quote from: Hobart on March 27, 2022, 07:38:04 PM
The only example I've seen this outside of interchanges was when my family went to Pensacola when I was in 7th grade.
US 98 Business, on Navy Boulevard, has two extremely long left turn lanes instead of a center lane setup. Why? I don't know.
https://www.google.com/maps/@30.4102334,-87.2642374,206m/data=!3m1!1e3
Wow, those are extremely long. I can't imagine either direction would need more than half that length.
Quote from: US 89 on March 27, 2022, 10:05:44 PM
Here's one in South Jordan, UT... although this one is really weird because the directions are actually reversed, with a maybe questionable use of a yellow line to separate them:
https://www.google.com/maps/@40.5419933,-112.0119951,58m/data=!3m1!1e3
Questionable indeed. That seems downright dangerous, most drivers are trained to stay right of yellow lines. Staying arrow straight through the intersection will lead you into the turn lane, but all you need is a driver to overthink it a bit to get someone heading the wrong way.
Quote from: US 89 on March 27, 2022, 10:05:44 PM
Here's one in South Jordan, UT... although this one is really weird because the directions are actually reversed, with a maybe questionable use of a yellow line to separate them:
https://www.google.com/maps/@40.5419933,-112.0119951,58m/data=!3m1!1e3
What the !? I'm trying to think of what the advantage of this configuration is. At least it's divided between the wrong way turn lanes and regular lanes, and it maybe improves sightlines and shortens the length of the turns, but still seems unnecessarily complicated. It's not intuitive to have to exit left a whole intersection early. I could easily see people unfamiliar with the area missing the turn.
For the northeast to northwest movement, I would think a Jersey jughandle would make a lot more sense - there's already one built in!
Quote from: jakeroot on March 27, 2022, 10:39:19 PM
Quote from: US 89 on March 27, 2022, 10:05:44 PM
Here's one in South Jordan, UT... although this one is really weird because the directions are actually reversed, with a maybe questionable use of a yellow line to separate them:
https://www.google.com/maps/@40.5419933,-112.0119951,58m/data=!3m1!1e3
Questionable indeed. That seems downright dangerous, most drivers are trained to stay right of yellow lines. Staying arrow straight through the intersection will lead you into the turn lane, but all you need is a driver to overthink it a bit to get someone heading the wrong way.
The problem is that technically a yellow line doesn't mean "stay right", it means "traffic flows the opposite direction on either side of this line". So, if anything, both sides of the lane should have yellow stripes.
Quote from: Scott5114 on March 27, 2022, 11:08:12 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on March 27, 2022, 10:39:19 PM
Quote from: US 89 on March 27, 2022, 10:05:44 PM
Here's one in South Jordan, UT... although this one is really weird because the directions are actually reversed, with a maybe questionable use of a yellow line to separate them:
https://www.google.com/maps/@40.5419933,-112.0119951,58m/data=!3m1!1e3
Questionable indeed. That seems downright dangerous, most drivers are trained to stay right of yellow lines. Staying arrow straight through the intersection will lead you into the turn lane, but all you need is a driver to overthink it a bit to get someone heading the wrong way.
The problem is that technically a yellow line doesn't mean "stay right", it means "traffic flows the opposite direction on either side of this line". So, if anything, both sides of the lane should have yellow stripes.
While technically true, I bet the vast majority of drivers don't interpret it that way. If you follow that meaning of the yellow line to the letter, shouldn't that also mean the insides of all DDI crossovers would need yellow lines? Good luck finding that in real life.
Aren't most DDI's divided, though? To me, a single yellow line says this is the left edge of the road or carriageway, which is different from a double yellow line.
Quote from: Scott5114 on March 27, 2022, 11:08:12 PM
The problem is that technically a yellow line doesn't mean "stay right", it means "traffic flows the opposite direction on either side of this line". So, if anything, both sides of the lane should have yellow stripes.
But by virtue of being a left hand drive country, yellow also means, in 99.99999% of cases, stay right of the line.
I'm guessing if you drew a yellow line on a piece of paper, and said which side of it should you drive on, pretty much everybody's going to say "the right".
Right. But because of that distinction, the MUTCD has no way to communicate "drive to the left, and only the left of this line". There's just white (same direction) and yellow (opposite direction). "Must keep left of this line" is a rare enough situation that a special pavement marking for it would not be easily recognized by most people since they wouldn't see it very often.
I think dotted white lines through the intersection (and maybe yellow too), as is frequently seen for left turns including at this very intersection, would really help here.
Maybe i missed something, but who said there was a problem?
Unusual? Yes. Accidents and confusions? Let's see the data.
I think a third yellow line in the center will help. That will allow drivers to see it as two two-way roads side by side in the form of ↓↑↓↑.
How about bright green as a "keep left of this line" color? I can't think of that as being used for anything right now.
Quote from: HighwayStar on March 28, 2022, 01:26:18 PM
How about bright green as a "keep left of this line" color? I can't think of that as being used for anything right now.
That's a common color for bike lanes.
Quote from: US 89 on March 28, 2022, 02:04:55 PM
Quote from: HighwayStar on March 28, 2022, 01:26:18 PM
How about bright green as a "keep left of this line" color? I can't think of that as being used for anything right now.
That's a common color for bike lanes.
Well it could still serve that purpose as a "keep left" line so bikes have room. I'd rather use it for that than bike lanes.
Perhaps the solution is just not to allow traffic travelling the "wrong way" to be separated by anything other than a physical barrier.
I.e., if traffic is coming at you from your right, ideally there should be more than just paint between you. Anywhere but parking lots, at least.
Going off of the more up to date imagery in Google Earth, Huntington Drive kind of has this at the Rolls Drive intersection in Algonquin, IL. The taper for the WB dual left to SB Randall Road starts about 165 feet east of Rolls Road and is about up to a full lane width at Rolls Road. The EB left turn lane occurs next to the WB taper. Location in Google Maps prior to completion (https://goo.gl/maps/UEuyfiXLTMc1eFTN8).
A little to the south there is a WB left next to an EB dual left on Harnish Drive west of Randall Road. (https://goo.gl/maps/cJYUEBrNM7biZ2oVA)
EDIT:: There is another WB left next to an EB dual left in the area on Polaris Drive. (https://goo.gl/maps/v4RxwptkZnsmaV2XA) Google Earth has the post-construction imagery.
Until recently, there was this setup (https://goo.gl/maps/8WaHsT3VsiFLY3Hj8) in Wichita. Basically a two-lane TWLTL. However, it was recently converted into a "normal" TWLTL.
Business US 127 in St. Johns, MI: Street View link (https://goo.gl/maps/8ErEy3bERfaUKVc2A)
Apparently when US 27 followed this route, this section had a median and left turns were handled by Michigan Lefts. It was paved sometime in the 70s or 80s, I think, well before 27 (now 127) was moved onto the bypass east of town.
Quote from: kphoger on March 30, 2022, 02:16:34 PM
Until recently, there was this setup (https://goo.gl/maps/8WaHsT3VsiFLY3Hj8) in Wichita. Basically a two-lane TWLTL. However, it was recently converted into a "normal" TWLTL.
I found something similar in
Cleona, PA (https://goo.gl/maps/h16NqMWUxg5mHd5a8), but it's even longer. About a mile long, in fact.
What about this one (that technically is a TWLTL?) on NH Route 28 in Salem, from Pattee Rd the "Fun City Trampoline Park Salem" to a little south of Kelly Rd? Been like this for about 16 years now:
https://www.google.com/maps/@42.7531001,-71.2073044,264m/data=!3m1!1e3
Quote from: fwydriver405 on April 06, 2022, 08:13:31 PM
What about this one (that technically is a TWLTL?) on NH Route 28 in Salem, from Pattee Rd to a little south of Kelly Rd? Been like this for about 16 years now,
https://www.google.com/maps/@42.7531001,-71.2073044,264m/data=!3m1!1e3
What is that, like a double TWLTL?
Quote from: jakeroot on April 06, 2022, 08:23:58 PM
Quote from: fwydriver405 on April 06, 2022, 08:13:31 PM
What about this one (that technically is a TWLTL?) on NH Route 28 in Salem, from Pattee Rd to a little south of Kelly Rd? Been like this for about 16 years now,
https://www.google.com/maps/@42.7531001,-71.2073044,264m/data=!3m1!1e3
What is that, like a double TWLTL?
I have never seen anything like that. If you ask me, that should be restriped to a single TWLTL, shift the travel lanes inward, then turn the remaining shoulder space into bike lanes. There's a road diet I can get behind.
That may be striped for two lanes, but it's barely wider than many regular TWLTL's, like this one (https://goo.gl/maps/8MR2Zh5D71LdNFhS7) on NY 104 (ironically part of a road diet a few years ago).
My PA example above is also quite instructive on this point: pan around and you'll notice the TWLTL is striped for one lane on one side of the intersection and two on the other with no difference in road width. That one is also "doubled" for about twice as long as the NH example, although at least it has standard white stripes adjacent to the lanes instead of yellow.
How about two left turn lanes with room for a TWTL in between? Harrodsburg, KY: https://goo.gl/maps/F7xSzk6nLYKDXH5c6
This used to be two left turn lanes (but has since been striped as a TWTL with through lanes shifting inward to create shoulders), also in Harrodsburg, KY: https://goo.gl/maps/sDtBoe5aSKkBKv4E9
This happens in more than one instance along US-1 (Connecticut Ave) in Norwalk, CT.
https://www.google.com/maps/@41.0981789,-73.4441062,3a,60y,77.2h,78.76t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1st7p9WXPVsWuDUj7syKfe-g!2e0!7i16384!8i8192 (https://www.google.com/maps/@41.0981789,-73.4441062,3a,60y,77.2h,78.76t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1st7p9WXPVsWuDUj7syKfe-g!2e0!7i16384!8i8192)