Quick search didn't reveal any previous discussion, so ... Interested in examples of runways that were abandoned and later repurposed as roads with (mostly) the original runway surface intact.
(Dual-purpose facilities that serve as both active roads and runways don't count, such as the one on the Dempster Highway.)
My example is from St. George UT, where the former SGU airport moved several miles away in 2011. In early 2022, a runway was used to connect the new Cloud Drive to the existing Tech Ridge Drive:
(https://i.imgur.com/wllj8KX.jpg)
Grand Central Ave., in Glendale, CA was a runway in years past for a long closed airport. For reference it is not far from the I-5/CA SR 134 interchange.
Do race tracks count? Sebring International Raceway in Florida and Silverstone Circuit in England are both former airfields with parts of old runways used as parts of the track, and I know there are more.
Doesn't quite count, because they did tear up the original surface and lay a new one, but... In Oklahoma City's Wheeler District, which used to be the downtown municipal airport, the main runway's alignment has a street laid over it now. The name of it? ... Run Way.
Another one that does count: a section of runway from the old Greater Southwest airport in Fort Worth became Amon Carter Boulevard.
(https://i.imgur.com/6P2U3Rv.jpg)
(Photo by Travis Church)
Syracuse Hancock Int'l should partially turn its old runway into parking.
Hong Kong's old Kai Tak Airport's runway is now a road with some development along it.
Pretty sure Loop Rd W at the site of the National Museum of the US Air Force at Wright-Patterson Air Force Base in Dayton, OH used to be an active runway
Many of Florida Atlantic University and Palm Beach State College (https://www.google.com/maps/@26.371331,-80.1033745,1477m/data=!3m1!1e3)'s roads or parking lots throughout the campuses are former runways.
The site has a darker history; it was once part of the Yamato Colony, and was seized by "eminent domain". It then became an Army Air Corps' training facility, and part of it became Boca Raton's municipal airport. Training changed to another site, and the site went to a new public University. (FAU has made some amends with its past, and frequently donates to the nearby Morikami Museum.)
But yeah, it was possible to drive like a nut on some the campus roads and still not get in anyone's way. There was never much of a battle for parking, either...local EMTs and helicopters used to train on some of the far-off runways. But there's been a lot of new construction over the last 20 years which eliminated a lot of the disused runways.
The former runways for Casper's old airport are now used as roads in the town of Bar Nunn WY (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bar_Nunn,_Wyoming).
The old Grand Rapids airport main runway became Roger B Chaffee Blvd.
http://www.airfields-freeman.com/MI/Airfields_MI_SW.htm#kentco
One of the closed runways at Arlington Municipal Airport in Washington was converted into a drive-up vaccination site.
(https://runwaygirlnetwork.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/03/Vaccination-site-on-closed-runway-at-Arlington-Municipal-Airport-on-Snohomish-County-WA.jpg)
Source: https://runwaygirlnetwork.com/2021/03/06/a-shot-in-the-arm-at-the-airport/
Quote from: Terry Shea on April 05, 2022, 12:26:15 AM
The old Grand Rapids airport main runway became Roger B Chaffee Blvd.
http://www.airfields-freeman.com/MI/Airfields_MI_SW.htm#kentco
I wondered if the street had reused a runway.
The company my dad worked for, Carpenter Paper Co., moved in the 60's to R B Chaffee from Market St near downtown. I worked in the warehouse 2 or 3 summers while in college.
I recall that an old article about Raleigh Municipal Airport discussed how some the developments along Chapanoke Road were constructed over the main north-south runway (14/32). Another article indicates that one of the main intersections in that development is directly at the main intersection of the runways. That doesn't look quite right. Rather, it appears that Chapanoke is parallel and just slightly north of the ramp to the old main terminal. If so, it appears that the intersection of Chapanoke Road and Ileagues Road sits upon the intersection of old Runway 14/32 and old Runway 4/22.
Oddly, the main east-west runway (9/27) was constructed perpendicular to US-401 (South Wilmington Street) and would have made a great roadway into the development. However, the interchange of South Saunders and South Wilmington (probably constructed in the late 1970s) is too close to where the extended runway would have intersected South Wilmington Street (US-70/US-401), which likely explains why the runway was not used for the development.
You'll have to dig through a bunch of other airports to get down to the old Raleigh Municipal Airport, but here's a link with some good info: http://www.airfields-freeman.com/NC/Airfields_NC_Raleigh.htm
There was a proposal (not sure how serious it was) to convert the old Pittsburgh Airport into a stadium. I had thought it was a good idea - the land was flat and the concourse had at least one restaurant. Instead the taxpayers got screwed twice (maybe three times if Three RIvers wasn't paid off) on PNC Park and Heinz Field.
Weren't many abandoned runways at WWII training bases later on used as competitive drag strips?
Mike
The old Salina, KS airport (http://www.airfields-freeman.com/KS/Airfields_KS_Wichita.htm#salina (http://www.airfields-freeman.com/KS/Airfields_KS_Wichita.htm#salina) had the taxiway turned into part of Markley Road, the runway turned into parking for baseball fields, and the apron turned into parking for a golf course: https://www.google.com/maps/@38.8189772,-97.5646825,2324m/data=!3m1!1e3 (https://www.google.com/maps/@38.8189772,-97.5646825,2324m/data=!3m1!1e3)
I seem to remember seeing a picture from Denver's former airport (Stapleton), in which one of the runways crossed I-70 on an overpass. Does a road now use that bridge, or was it taken down when Stapleton closed?
Quote from: KCRoadFan on April 06, 2022, 09:37:33 PM
I seem to remember seeing a picture from Denver's former airport (Stapleton), in which one of the runways crossed I-70 on an overpass. Does a road now use that bridge, or was it taken down when Stapleton closed?
Historic Aerials shows photos from 1999 whereby the runway bridges were removed (the airport moved in 1995).
Quote from: formulanone on April 06, 2022, 10:03:22 PM
Quote from: KCRoadFan on April 06, 2022, 09:37:33 PM
I seem to remember seeing a picture from Denver's former airport (Stapleton), in which one of the runways crossed I-70 on an overpass. Does a road now use that bridge, or was it taken down when Stapleton closed?
Historic Aerials shows photos from 1999 whereby the runway bridges were removed (the airport moved in 1995).
Yea, CDOT daylighted that I-70 overcrossing not long after DEN was moved to its present location in the mid 1990s.
mike
After KI Sawyer AFB closed, the civilian airport in Marquette, MI, moved there. The old Marquette County Airport is now an industrial park with some of the old taxiways and part of a runway used as roads:
http://mapper.acme.com/?ll=46.53342,-447.55659&z=16&t=S (http://mapper.acme.com/?ll=46.53342,-447.55659&z=16&t=S)
Quote from: mgk920 on April 08, 2022, 12:34:40 AM
Quote from: formulanone on April 06, 2022, 10:03:22 PM
Quote from: KCRoadFan on April 06, 2022, 09:37:33 PM
I seem to remember seeing a picture from Denver's former airport (Stapleton), in which one of the runways crossed I-70 on an overpass. Does a road now use that bridge, or was it taken down when Stapleton closed?
Historic Aerials shows photos from 1999 whereby the runway bridges were removed (the airport moved in 1995).
Yea, CDOT daylighted that I-70 overcrossing not long after DEN was moved to its present location in the mid 1990s.
mike
Its too bad they could not keep both and have a closer to center city option like Dallas has with Love Field.
Quote from: HighwayStar on April 10, 2022, 08:34:56 PM
Its too bad they could not keep both and have a closer to center city option like Dallas has with Love Field.
I hear the proximity to the mountains created problems with wind shear for pilots at Stapleton. So it wasn't just about needing more space or noise abatement when they moved the airport. They had safety concerns.
Which always struck me as weird because there are several other airports a similar distance to the mountains in other Front Range cities. Though none with nearly the traffic as Denver.
As it stands, it was the correct move to redevelop Stapleton rather than keep it. The gains in housing for a growing metro supersede the marginal convenience of some planes landing slightly closer to the city.
Quote from: triplemultiplex on April 11, 2022, 02:24:24 PM
Quote from: HighwayStar on April 10, 2022, 08:34:56 PM
Its too bad they could not keep both and have a closer to center city option like Dallas has with Love Field.
I hear the proximity to the mountains created problems with wind shear for pilots at Stapleton. So it wasn't just about needing more space or noise abatement when they moved the airport. They had safety concerns.
Which always struck me as weird because there are several other airports a similar distance to the mountains in other Front Range cities. Though none with nearly the traffic as Denver.
As it stands, it was the correct move to redevelop Stapleton rather than keep it. The gains in housing for a growing metro supersede the marginal convenience of some planes landing slightly closer to the city.
The worst turbulence I've personally experienced was on approach to Stapleton from the west.
Quote from: triplemultiplex on April 11, 2022, 02:24:24 PM
Quote from: HighwayStar on April 10, 2022, 08:34:56 PM
Its too bad they could not keep both and have a closer to center city option like Dallas has with Love Field.
I hear the proximity to the mountains created problems with wind shear for pilots at Stapleton. So it wasn't just about needing more space or noise abatement when they moved the airport. They had safety concerns.
Which always struck me as weird because there are several other airports a similar distance to the mountains in other Front Range cities. Though none with nearly the traffic as Denver.
As it stands, it was the correct move to redevelop Stapleton rather than keep it. The gains in housing for a growing metro supersede the marginal convenience of some planes landing slightly closer to the city.
I am well aware of the turbulence excuse, but it makes no sense when you consider they flew in and out of there for decades. It was definitely more of a NIMBY cause.
And housing can be put further out as well, but once you cannibalize an airport you will never be able to have one so conveniently close to city center again.
Quote from: HighwayStar on April 11, 2022, 04:27:49 PM
I am well aware of the turbulence excuse, but it makes no sense when you consider they flew in and out of there for decades. It was definitely more of a NIMBY cause.
Just because the airport can function doesn't mean it's running at peak efficiency or peak safety. I bet if you told a plane full of passengers that they were flying into an objectively more dangerous airport when a safer one was nearby, they wouldn't be too happy about it...
Quote from: US 89 on April 11, 2022, 06:17:50 PM
Quote from: HighwayStar on April 11, 2022, 04:27:49 PM
I am well aware of the turbulence excuse, but it makes no sense when you consider they flew in and out of there for decades. It was definitely more of a NIMBY cause.
Just because the airport can function doesn't mean it's running at peak efficiency or peak safety. I bet if you told a plane full of passengers that they were flying into an objectively more dangerous airport when a safer one was nearby, they wouldn't be too happy about it...
That is because the average person does not understand how statistics work. p = 0.00001 is twice p = 0.000005 but no rational person would worry about doing either as they are both safe in the grand scope of things. The old airport was perfectly safe, it just irritated the CAVE people.
"I am well aware of the reasons a decision was made, but I'm going to choose to disregard them because I like the reasons I made up in my head better."
Quote from: Scott5114 on April 11, 2022, 06:34:13 PM
"I am well aware of the reasons a decision was made, but I'm going to choose to disregard them because I like the reasons I made up in my head better."
pretext
a pretended reason for doing something that is used to hide the real reason
DIA is a better airport than Stapleton was anyway.
Quote from: kphoger on April 12, 2022, 09:31:49 AM
DIA is a better airport than Stapleton was anyway.
I never flew to/from Stapleton but the old photos looks like it was in need of expansion, but there wasn't any additional room for it. I'm comparing it to today's DEN, so that's not a perfect comparison, but it's hard to deny that as a valid reason to "move" the whole shebang way out into the sticks. Anything else smacks of story telling and yarn spinning.
If the population of Colorado Springs keeps up its trajectory, then it will probably become the de facto second airport for the Denver metro area (though it's a different agglomeration).
Quote from: formulanone on April 12, 2022, 09:38:15 AM
Quote from: kphoger on April 12, 2022, 09:31:49 AM
DIA is a better airport than Stapleton was anyway.
I never flew to/from Stapleton but the old photos looks like it was in need of expansion, but there wasn't any additional room for it. I'm comparing it to today's DEN, so that's not a perfect comparison, but it's hard to deny that as a valid reason to "move" the whole shebang way out into the sticks. Anything else smacks of story telling and yarn spinning.
If the population of Colorado Springs keeps up its trajectory, then it will probably become the de facto second airport for the Denver metro area (though it's a different agglomeration).
Back in the day, there used to be some subsidies to fly out of COS so we did it a couple of times because it was way cheaper. I've never noticed a price difference anymore, just less selection of times. I'm about 25 minutes to DIA and probably with good traffic, 70 minutes to COS, so wouldn't likely work for me. But, for those in Douglas County (Highlands Ranch, Lone Tree, Castle Rock, etc.), I can see it making sense from time to time.
Quote from: formulanone on April 12, 2022, 09:38:15 AM
Quote from: kphoger on April 12, 2022, 09:31:49 AM
DIA is a better airport than Stapleton was anyway.
I never flew to/from Stapleton but the old photos looks like it was in need of expansion, but there wasn't any additional room for it. I'm comparing it to today's DEN, so that's not a perfect comparison, but it's hard to deny that as a valid reason to "move" the whole shebang way out into the sticks. Anything else smacks of story telling and yarn spinning.
If the population of Colorado Springs keeps up its trajectory, then it will probably become the de facto second airport for the Denver metro area (though it's a different agglomeration).
This is the important part. Stapleton was an old, outdated, functionally restricted airport that needed to be completely overhauled or replaced. The terminal was a sprawling mess (that I had the misfortune to run the entire length of due to a late flight) that had been expanded to its limits. I can't point to any studies, but I'm sure it would have been far more expensive to fix Stapleton than just buy a lot of cheaper land on the edge of the city to start over.
DIA has its issues, including chronic baggage handling problems when it first opened, but was a dramatic improvement over Stapleton. It does a great job handling both the needs of the city and the western US hub of United in a way Stapleton never could.
Quote from: kphoger on April 12, 2022, 09:31:49 AM
DIA is a better airport than Stapleton was anyway.
I just flew in and out of there. It has aged very quickly. I didn't mind it in years past, but this time the layout and the wandering required to get around irked me more.
I actually haven't flown through Denver since 2006. But, back then at least, it seemed to me like what O'Hare wished it could be.
Quote from: Rothman on April 12, 2022, 01:32:32 PM
Quote from: kphoger on April 12, 2022, 09:31:49 AM
DIA is a better airport than Stapleton was anyway.
I just flew in and out of there. It has aged very quickly. I didn't mind it in years past, but this time the layout and the wandering required to get around irked me more.
What wandering? There's a train line connecting the main terminal to terminals A, B, and C. The train runs right down the center of those terminals, so once you get off, you walk in a straight line to your gate (or a slight pigtail at the end of Terminal B where the smaller United flights leave from).
Lots of other airports have signs that lead in multiple directions to get to different concourses/terminals, some of which take a lot longer than others. DIA doesn't have anything close to that since there's only one way to get between any two (other than the walkway from the main terminal to A).
(https://i.postimg.cc/wT5RBjLH/DIA.png)
Quote from: FrCorySticha on April 12, 2022, 10:41:17 AM
Quote from: formulanone on April 12, 2022, 09:38:15 AM
Quote from: kphoger on April 12, 2022, 09:31:49 AM
DIA is a better airport than Stapleton was anyway.
I never flew to/from Stapleton but the old photos looks like it was in need of expansion, but there wasn't any additional room for it. I'm comparing it to today's DEN, so that's not a perfect comparison, but it's hard to deny that as a valid reason to "move" the whole shebang way out into the sticks. Anything else smacks of story telling and yarn spinning.
If the population of Colorado Springs keeps up its trajectory, then it will probably become the de facto second airport for the Denver metro area (though it's a different agglomeration).
This is the important part. Stapleton was an old, outdated, functionally restricted airport that needed to be completely overhauled or replaced. The terminal was a sprawling mess (that I had the misfortune to run the entire length of due to a late flight) that had been expanded to its limits. I can't point to any studies, but I'm sure it would have been far more expensive to fix Stapleton than just buy a lot of cheaper land on the edge of the city to start over.
DIA has its issues, including chronic baggage handling problems when it first opened, but was a dramatic improvement over Stapleton. It does a great job handling both the needs of the city and the western US hub of United in a way Stapleton never could.
Yeah that is the same line of BS they fed everyone about Love Field, but a funny thing happened over time, people came to love the convenience of an airport close to downtown and the government had to put draconian restrictions on it to prevent people from using it. I suspect they learned their lesson with Love Field so that when it came time for Denver they decided to destroy it beyond all possible use so that everyone would have to use the new one.
Quote from: HighwayStar on April 12, 2022, 01:57:31 PM
Quote from: FrCorySticha on April 12, 2022, 10:41:17 AM
Quote from: formulanone on April 12, 2022, 09:38:15 AM
Quote from: kphoger on April 12, 2022, 09:31:49 AM
DIA is a better airport than Stapleton was anyway.
I never flew to/from Stapleton but the old photos looks like it was in need of expansion, but there wasn't any additional room for it. I'm comparing it to today's DEN, so that's not a perfect comparison, but it's hard to deny that as a valid reason to "move" the whole shebang way out into the sticks. Anything else smacks of story telling and yarn spinning.
If the population of Colorado Springs keeps up its trajectory, then it will probably become the de facto second airport for the Denver metro area (though it's a different agglomeration).
This is the important part. Stapleton was an old, outdated, functionally restricted airport that needed to be completely overhauled or replaced. The terminal was a sprawling mess (that I had the misfortune to run the entire length of due to a late flight) that had been expanded to its limits. I can't point to any studies, but I'm sure it would have been far more expensive to fix Stapleton than just buy a lot of cheaper land on the edge of the city to start over.
DIA has its issues, including chronic baggage handling problems when it first opened, but was a dramatic improvement over Stapleton. It does a great job handling both the needs of the city and the western US hub of United in a way Stapleton never could.
Yeah that is the same line of BS they fed everyone about Love Field, but a funny thing happened over time, people came to love the convenience of an airport close to downtown and the government had to put draconian restrictions on it to prevent people from using it. I suspect they learned their lesson with Love Field so that when it came time for Denver they decided to destroy it beyond all possible use so that everyone would have to use the new one.
Especially once they opened the train line from downtown to DIA, it's way less of a PITA for most people in the metro. Not to mention the toll roads that can help escape traffic if necessary. Stapleton was gross; I clearly remember sticky carpets. The fact that Denver is the 3rd busiest airport in the world at the moment could have never happened if it was still in Central Park.
Going to Stapleton, it was like, there's a gas station, there's a crack house, there's the airport, there's a porn store, oh wait! turn around! we missed the airport!
Quote from: HighwayStar on April 12, 2022, 01:57:31 PM
Quote from: FrCorySticha on April 12, 2022, 10:41:17 AM
Quote from: formulanone on April 12, 2022, 09:38:15 AM
Quote from: kphoger on April 12, 2022, 09:31:49 AM
DIA is a better airport than Stapleton was anyway.
I never flew to/from Stapleton but the old photos looks like it was in need of expansion, but there wasn't any additional room for it. I'm comparing it to today's DEN, so that's not a perfect comparison, but it's hard to deny that as a valid reason to "move" the whole shebang way out into the sticks. Anything else smacks of story telling and yarn spinning.
If the population of Colorado Springs keeps up its trajectory, then it will probably become the de facto second airport for the Denver metro area (though it's a different agglomeration).
This is the important part. Stapleton was an old, outdated, functionally restricted airport that needed to be completely overhauled or replaced. The terminal was a sprawling mess (that I had the misfortune to run the entire length of due to a late flight) that had been expanded to its limits. I can't point to any studies, but I'm sure it would have been far more expensive to fix Stapleton than just buy a lot of cheaper land on the edge of the city to start over.
DIA has its issues, including chronic baggage handling problems when it first opened, but was a dramatic improvement over Stapleton. It does a great job handling both the needs of the city and the western US hub of United in a way Stapleton never could.
Yeah that is the same line of BS they fed everyone about Love Field, but a funny thing happened over time, people came to love the convenience of an airport close to downtown and the government had to put draconian restrictions on it to prevent people from using it. I suspect they learned their lesson with Love Field so that when it came time for Denver they decided to destroy it beyond all possible use so that everyone would have to use the new one.
Did you ever actually fly into and through Stapleton and DIA, or are you just talking out of your ignorance and looking at maps? I've flown into and through both, and DIA is a massive improvement that was very much needed.
Quote from: HighwayStar on April 12, 2022, 01:57:31 PMYeah that is the same line of BS they fed everyone about Love Field, but a funny thing happened over time, people came to love the convenience of an airport close to downtown and the government had to put draconian restrictions on it to prevent people from using it.
No one put "draconian restrictions" on Midway, and yet you still can't get to every destination in the world from there, because the runways are too short to accommodate planes bigger than a 757.
This fantasy world you've created for yourself where literally everything is a conspiracy is fascinating.
a2 + b2 = dzlsabe
Quote from: FrCorySticha on April 12, 2022, 02:22:43 PM
Quote from: HighwayStar on April 12, 2022, 01:57:31 PM
Quote from: FrCorySticha on April 12, 2022, 10:41:17 AM
Quote from: formulanone on April 12, 2022, 09:38:15 AM
Quote from: kphoger on April 12, 2022, 09:31:49 AM
DIA is a better airport than Stapleton was anyway.
I never flew to/from Stapleton but the old photos looks like it was in need of expansion, but there wasn't any additional room for it. I'm comparing it to today's DEN, so that's not a perfect comparison, but it's hard to deny that as a valid reason to "move" the whole shebang way out into the sticks. Anything else smacks of story telling and yarn spinning.
If the population of Colorado Springs keeps up its trajectory, then it will probably become the de facto second airport for the Denver metro area (though it's a different agglomeration).
This is the important part. Stapleton was an old, outdated, functionally restricted airport that needed to be completely overhauled or replaced. The terminal was a sprawling mess (that I had the misfortune to run the entire length of due to a late flight) that had been expanded to its limits. I can't point to any studies, but I'm sure it would have been far more expensive to fix Stapleton than just buy a lot of cheaper land on the edge of the city to start over.
DIA has its issues, including chronic baggage handling problems when it first opened, but was a dramatic improvement over Stapleton. It does a great job handling both the needs of the city and the western US hub of United in a way Stapleton never could.
Yeah that is the same line of BS they fed everyone about Love Field, but a funny thing happened over time, people came to love the convenience of an airport close to downtown and the government had to put draconian restrictions on it to prevent people from using it. I suspect they learned their lesson with Love Field so that when it came time for Denver they decided to destroy it beyond all possible use so that everyone would have to use the new one.
Did you ever actually fly into and through Stapleton and DIA, or are you just talking out of your ignorance and looking at maps? I've flown into and through both, and DIA is a massive improvement that was very much needed.
I care about distance to my final destination, I don't really care how fancy the airport is. Not to mention you can remodel all of that anyway so there is no inherency to whatever airport you flew in or out of remaining the same.
Quote from: abefroman329 on April 12, 2022, 02:51:54 PM
Quote from: HighwayStar on April 12, 2022, 01:57:31 PMYeah that is the same line of BS they fed everyone about Love Field, but a funny thing happened over time, people came to love the convenience of an airport close to downtown and the government had to put draconian restrictions on it to prevent people from using it.
No one put "draconian restrictions" on Midway, and yet you still can't get to every destination in the world from there, because the runways are too short to accommodate planes bigger than a 757.
This fantasy world you've created for yourself where literally everything is a conspiracy is fascinating.
Red Herring. Midway is not under discussion here, and the reasons for limitations at that airport are not the same as those that were used to limit Love Field. Love Field did not support flights due to regulations, go read about the Wright Amendment, its not a "conspiracy theory" it happened.
Quote from: HighwayStar on April 12, 2022, 03:16:01 PM
I care about distance to my final destination, I don't really care how fancy the airport is. Not to mention you can remodel all of that anyway so there is no inherency to whatever airport you flew in or out of remaining the same.
But without expansion, which would not have been possible at Stapleton, you probably would have had to take another connection to get here, putting you much farther away temporally.
Quote from: HighwayStar on April 12, 2022, 03:17:22 PM
Quote from: abefroman329 on April 12, 2022, 02:51:54 PM
Quote from: HighwayStar on April 12, 2022, 01:57:31 PMYeah that is the same line of BS they fed everyone about Love Field, but a funny thing happened over time, people came to love the convenience of an airport close to downtown and the government had to put draconian restrictions on it to prevent people from using it.
No one put "draconian restrictions" on Midway, and yet you still can't get to every destination in the world from there, because the runways are too short to accommodate planes bigger than a 757.
This fantasy world you've created for yourself where literally everything is a conspiracy is fascinating.
Red Herring. Midway is not under discussion here, and the reasons for limitations at that airport are not the same as those that were used to limit Love Field. Love Field did not support flights due to regulations, go read about the Wright Amendment, its not a "conspiracy theory" it happened.
I'm familiar with the Wright Amendment, thanks.
Quote from: JayhawkCO on April 12, 2022, 03:19:59 PM
Quote from: HighwayStar on April 12, 2022, 03:16:01 PM
I care about distance to my final destination, I don't really care how fancy the airport is. Not to mention you can remodel all of that anyway so there is no inherency to whatever airport you flew in or out of remaining the same.
But without expansion, which would not have been possible at Stapleton, you probably would have had to take another connection to get here, putting you much farther away temporally.
Not inherently. You can do both, you can build a new airport AND keep the original one (ie the DFW & Love Field situation). Then the market can decide which flights need to go to each, with those who value the premium of convenience being able to choose that if they wish.
Talladega Superspeedway was built on top of an old air force base
https://www.google.com/maps/@33.5662083,-86.0669803,1819m/data=!3m1!1e3
Quote from: HighwayStar on April 12, 2022, 03:23:12 PM
Quote from: JayhawkCO on April 12, 2022, 03:19:59 PM
Quote from: HighwayStar on April 12, 2022, 03:16:01 PM
I care about distance to my final destination, I don't really care how fancy the airport is. Not to mention you can remodel all of that anyway so there is no inherency to whatever airport you flew in or out of remaining the same.
But without expansion, which would not have been possible at Stapleton, you probably would have had to take another connection to get here, putting you much farther away temporally.
Not inherently. You can do both, you can build a new airport AND keep the original one (ie the DFW & Love Field situation). Then the market can decide which flights need to go to each, with those who value the premium of convenience being able to choose that if they wish.
I guarantee refurbishment costs for Stapleton, not to mention lack of ability for larger jets would make that untenable and unprofitable. The property tax they get from the Central Park neighborhood alone would outweigh any financial benefit.
Quote from: JayhawkCO on April 12, 2022, 03:34:15 PM
Quote from: HighwayStar on April 12, 2022, 03:23:12 PM
Quote from: JayhawkCO on April 12, 2022, 03:19:59 PM
Quote from: HighwayStar on April 12, 2022, 03:16:01 PM
I care about distance to my final destination, I don't really care how fancy the airport is. Not to mention you can remodel all of that anyway so there is no inherency to whatever airport you flew in or out of remaining the same.
But without expansion, which would not have been possible at Stapleton, you probably would have had to take another connection to get here, putting you much farther away temporally.
Not inherently. You can do both, you can build a new airport AND keep the original one (ie the DFW & Love Field situation). Then the market can decide which flights need to go to each, with those who value the premium of convenience being able to choose that if they wish.
I guarantee refurbishment costs for Stapleton, not to mention lack of ability for larger jets would make that untenable and unprofitable. The property tax they get from the Central Park neighborhood alone would outweigh any financial benefit.
I find that dubious, and also keep in mind the temporal effect, Love Field was not heavily used for the first couple decades after DFW came in but eventually became very valuable.
Also the one time value of the property being sold off to other developers is bad accounting and is the type of BS that gets pulled all the time with transportation projects. The perpetual value to the public of improved transportation is worth more than the real estate.
Quote from: HighwayStar on April 12, 2022, 03:37:42 PM
Quote from: JayhawkCO on April 12, 2022, 03:34:15 PM
Quote from: HighwayStar on April 12, 2022, 03:23:12 PM
Quote from: JayhawkCO on April 12, 2022, 03:19:59 PM
Quote from: HighwayStar on April 12, 2022, 03:16:01 PM
I care about distance to my final destination, I don't really care how fancy the airport is. Not to mention you can remodel all of that anyway so there is no inherency to whatever airport you flew in or out of remaining the same.
But without expansion, which would not have been possible at Stapleton, you probably would have had to take another connection to get here, putting you much farther away temporally.
Not inherently. You can do both, you can build a new airport AND keep the original one (ie the DFW & Love Field situation). Then the market can decide which flights need to go to each, with those who value the premium of convenience being able to choose that if they wish.
I guarantee refurbishment costs for Stapleton, not to mention lack of ability for larger jets would make that untenable and unprofitable. The property tax they get from the Central Park neighborhood alone would outweigh any financial benefit.
I find that dubious, and also keep in mind the temporal effect, Love Field was not heavily used for the first couple decades after DFW came in but eventually became very valuable.
Also the one time value of the property being sold off to other developers is bad accounting and is the type of BS that gets pulled all the time with transportation projects. The perpetual value to the public of improved transportation is worth more than the real estate.
"20 minutes more convenient for HighwayStar" is different than millions of dollars of tax revenue.
From various articles about Stapleton:
(https://i.postimg.cc/Y2Q3Xcyh/DIA2.png)
(https://i.postimg.cc/GtPx9Ysk/DIA3.png)
(https://i.postimg.cc/YqkxZXJ8/DIA4.png)
Clearly it was just NIMBYism.
WTF are we even arguing about anymore?
Stapleton was a dog turd, and DIA replaced it. Could they have kept the old one around for _________ whatever reason? meh, maybe. Doesn't matter now.
Back on topic, it looks like one bit of the runway from Stapleton is still used as a parking lot. Nothing as a surface street.
Quote from: HighwayStar on April 12, 2022, 03:16:01 PM
Quote from: FrCorySticha on April 12, 2022, 02:22:43 PM
Did you ever actually fly into and through Stapleton and DIA, or are you just talking out of your ignorance and looking at maps? I've flown into and through both, and DIA is a massive improvement that was very much needed.
I care about distance to my final destination, I don't really care how fancy the airport is. Not to mention you can remodel all of that anyway so there is no inherency to whatever airport you flew in or out of remaining the same.
It would have just been quicker to respond "Ignorance". You don't know what you're talking about, and sadly, you're to full of yourself to realize it.
Quote from: FrCorySticha on April 12, 2022, 04:01:08 PM
Quote from: HighwayStar on April 12, 2022, 03:16:01 PM
Quote from: FrCorySticha on April 12, 2022, 02:22:43 PM
Did you ever actually fly into and through Stapleton and DIA, or are you just talking out of your ignorance and looking at maps? I've flown into and through both, and DIA is a massive improvement that was very much needed.
I care about distance to my final destination, I don't really care how fancy the airport is. Not to mention you can remodel all of that anyway so there is no inherency to whatever airport you flew in or out of remaining the same.
It would have just been quicker to respond "Ignorance". You don't know what you're talking about, and sadly, you're to full of yourself to realize it.
Not sure who came up with this special gatekeeper definition of only someone who flew into both can make a comparison, but it is neither objective nor relevant. Rather than actually answering my point (that I, like most people that fly, only care about how much time it takes, not how luxurious the carpet in the airport is) we keep drifting off into these irrelevant suppositions
Quote from: kphoger on April 12, 2022, 03:47:44 PM
WTF are we even arguing about anymore?
Stapleton was a dog turd, and DIA replaced it. Could they have kept the old one around for _________ whatever reason? meh, maybe. Doesn't matter now.
Those who do not learn from their history are doomed to repeat it.
Quote from: HighwayStar on April 12, 2022, 04:18:01 PM
I, like most people that fly, only care about how much time it takes, not how luxurious the carpet in the airport is
Not much time difference between the two that I can recall. DIA is served by a controlled-access highway, whereas Stapleton was in the middle of a bunch of local streets.
My mileage may have varied, though, coming in from out of town.
Quote from: HighwayStar on April 12, 2022, 04:23:07 PM
Those who do not learn from their history are doomed to repeat it.
So Denver is doomed... how, exactly? Are they wishing they had another airport or something?
Quote from: HighwayStar on April 12, 2022, 04:18:01 PMNot sure who came up with this special gatekeeper definition of only someone who flew into both can make a comparison
You, when you stated that no one who lives in NYC gets to have an opinion on whether they should have paved over Manhattan.
Quote from: kphoger on April 12, 2022, 04:28:18 PM
So Denver is doomed... how, exactly? Are they wishing they had another airport or something?
No thanks. Maybe another security line. Otherwise we're good.
Quote from: JayhawkCO on April 12, 2022, 01:52:06 PM
Quote from: Rothman on April 12, 2022, 01:32:32 PM
Quote from: kphoger on April 12, 2022, 09:31:49 AM
DIA is a better airport than Stapleton was anyway.
I just flew in and out of there. It has aged very quickly. I didn't mind it in years past, but this time the layout and the wandering required to get around irked me more.
What wandering? There's a train line connecting the main terminal to terminals A, B, and C. The train runs right down the center of those terminals, so once you get off, you walk in a straight line to your gate (or a slight pigtail at the end of Terminal B where the smaller United flights leave from).
Lots of other airports have signs that lead in multiple directions to get to different concourses/terminals, some of which take a lot longer than others. DIA doesn't have anything close to that since there's only one way to get between any two (other than the walkway from the main terminal to A).
(https://i.postimg.cc/wT5RBjLH/DIA.png)
Pfft. I'm talking what you have to go through to get from the gate, to the baggage claim and out of the airport. Compared to a lot of other airports I've been to, my experience at KDEN was awful.
You can keep trying to argue with me, but arguing against my own experience is pretty silly. :D
Quote from: HighwayStar on April 12, 2022, 04:18:01 PM
Not sure who came up with this special gatekeeper definition of only someone who flew into both can make a comparison, but it is neither objective nor relevant. Rather than actually answering my point (that I, like most people that fly, only care about how much time it takes, not how luxurious the carpet in the airport is) we keep drifting off into these irrelevant suppositions
Because you would actually know what you're talking about if you'd been to both airports. Your question has been answered by myself and others:
Quote from: FrCorySticha on April 12, 2022, 10:41:17 AM
Stapleton was an old, outdated, functionally restricted airport that needed to be completely overhauled or replaced. The terminal was a sprawling mess (that I had the misfortune to run the entire length of due to a late flight) that had been expanded to its limits.
Ignorance and stubbornness on your part are not a good combination. Denver is not Dallas, and Stapleton was not Love Field.
Quote from: kphoger on April 12, 2022, 04:28:18 PMSo Denver is doomed... how, exactly? Are they wishing they had another airport or something?
They don't even have one airport - everyone knows DIA is actually a FEMA concentration camp.
Quote from: abefroman329 on April 12, 2022, 04:31:32 PM
Quote from: HighwayStar on April 12, 2022, 04:18:01 PMNot sure who came up with this special gatekeeper definition of only someone who flew into both can make a comparison
You, when you stated that no one who lives in NYC gets to have an opinion on whether they should have paved over Manhattan.
It is 19 miles further from downtown, that is significant. Also roads can be improved, you can build a freeway to the old airport, but you cannot open a wormhole and reduce the mileage to the new one.
People living in Denver just get a substandard level of air service from what they should have had.
Quote from: HighwayStar on April 12, 2022, 04:34:16 PM
People living in Denver just get a substandard level of air service from what they should have had.
:-D :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D
Just keep proving you have no clue what you're talking about.
Quote from: FrCorySticha on April 12, 2022, 04:39:26 PM
Quote from: HighwayStar on April 12, 2022, 04:34:16 PM
People living in Denver just get a substandard level of air service from what they should have had.
:-D :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D
Just keep proving you have no clue what you're talking about.
Agreed. This guy seems clueless as to how service dramatically improved with the opening of DIA. Meanwhile, those of us who actually lived in the area at the time (granted, I lived 200+ miles away, but Denver was the closest non-prop-plane airport) just keep shaking our heads in disbelief.
Quote from: kphoger on April 12, 2022, 04:49:17 PM
Quote from: FrCorySticha on April 12, 2022, 04:39:26 PM
Quote from: HighwayStar on April 12, 2022, 04:34:16 PM
People living in Denver just get a substandard level of air service from what they should have had.
:-D :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D
Just keep proving you have no clue what you're talking about.
Agreed. This guy seems clueless as to how service dramatically improved with the opening of DIA. Meanwhile, those of us who actually lived in the area at the time (granted, I lived 200+ miles away, but Denver was the closest non-prop-plane airport) just keep shaking our heads in disbelief.
I don't care how much "service improved" after DIA opened because,
that is not the relevant criterion for comparison.You have to compare against the preferred alternative which would be to keep BOTH. So you would still gain whatever "improvements" you got from DIA, but would also incur the benefits of an airport close to city center. Ie. perm and do both. See DFW/Love Field for how this works, its not rocket science.
Quote from: HighwayStar on April 12, 2022, 04:52:43 PM
I don't care how much "service improved" after DIA opened because, that is not the relevant criterion for comparison.
You have to compare against the preferred alternative which would be to keep BOTH. So you would still gain whatever "improvements" you got from DIA, but would also incur the benefits of an airport close to city center. Ie. perm and do both. See DFW/Love Field for how this works, its not rocket science.
I'm sure the fact that we now have almost no flights cancelled due to weather whereas Stapleton would have flights cancelled due to low cloud cover quite often is irrelevant to you. Because you only care that Stapleton was closer to downtown. Got it. Twelve minutes of traffic is much more important than four hours of flight delays. You can say that we can have both, but we don't want both. No one would want to fly out of a sub-standard Stapleton that would be much more likely to have a flight cancelled. It's not much closer when you count all the shitty traffic that used to exist on Quebec when trying to leave the airport.
Quote from: kphoger on April 12, 2022, 04:49:17 PM
Agreed. This guy seems clueless as to how service dramatically improved with the opening of DIA. Meanwhile, those of us who actually lived in the area at the time (granted, I lived 200+ miles away, but Denver was the closest non-prop-plane airport) just keep shaking our heads in disbelief.
I was living in NE Montana at the time, so quite a bit farther, but Denver was and is an important air link out of Montana. The problems of Stapleton, building a new airport, and bugs of DIA were all important news for us. I still remember hearing about the cluster**** that DIA's auto baggage routing system was at the beginning. Fortunately, they got that sorted out very quickly.
Quote from: HighwayStar on April 12, 2022, 04:52:43 PM
Quote from: kphoger on April 12, 2022, 04:49:17 PM
Quote from: FrCorySticha on April 12, 2022, 04:39:26 PM
Quote from: HighwayStar on April 12, 2022, 04:34:16 PM
People living in Denver just get a substandard level of air service from what they should have had.
:-D :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D
Just keep proving you have no clue what you're talking about.
Agreed. This guy seems clueless as to how service dramatically improved with the opening of DIA. Meanwhile, those of us who actually lived in the area at the time (granted, I lived 200+ miles away, but Denver was the closest non-prop-plane airport) just keep shaking our heads in disbelief.
I don't care how much "service improved" after DIA opened because, that is not the relevant criterion for comparison.
You have to compare against the preferred alternative which would be to keep BOTH. So you would still gain whatever "improvements" you got from DIA, but would also incur the benefits of an airport close to city center. Ie. perm and do both. See DFW/Love Field for how this works, its not rocket science.
I would argue Service is a relevant standard for rating any airport. Especially when the previous airport was rapidly reaching a point of not being capable of providing a level of service acceptable to most in the industry.
Quote from: JayhawkCO on April 12, 2022, 03:50:14 PM
Back on topic, it looks like one bit of the runway from Stapleton is still used as a parking lot. Nothing as a surface street.
Before they started tearing up the field, there was a concert festival on one of the Stapleton runways. It was a lot of fun, and kind of cool from a geeky perspective to be partying where aircraft landed and took off for years.
Quote from: FrCorySticha on April 12, 2022, 05:05:24 PM
Quote from: JayhawkCO on April 12, 2022, 03:50:14 PM
Back on topic, it looks like one bit of the runway from Stapleton is still used as a parking lot. Nothing as a surface street.
Before they started tearing up the field, there was a concert festival on one of the Stapleton runways. It was a lot of fun, and kind of cool from a geeky perspective to be partying where aircraft landed and took off for years.
I bet - they used to do a 5K on the Runway at O'Hare and it was pretty cool to go for a run on a runway.
I went to a work party at a bar that opened in the former control tower at Stapleton. It has since closed but the building got purchased not too long ago. Story here. (https://www.denverpost.com/2021/11/24/punch-bowl-social-central-park-air-traffic-tower-sold/)
For a lot of people, Detroit City is closer than DTW. HS, I wonder why they couldn't keep flights there? Even Southwest moved to DTW.
Lots of examples. Mobile comes to mind.
CVG and Lunken Field, CMH and Rickenbacker...
Quote from: HighwayStar on April 12, 2022, 01:57:31 PM
Yeah that is the same line of BS they fed everyone about Love Field, but a funny thing happened over time, people came to love the convenience of an airport close to downtown and the government had to put draconian restrictions on it to prevent people from using it.
That's not what happened at all. Before DFW existed, Fort Worth tried to get Dallas to build a combined airport midway between the two cities that would replace the downtown Fort Worth and Dallas airfields. This was Amon Carter Greater Southwest Airport (GSW). However, because the plans placed the GSW terminal on the west side of the property, closer to Ft. Worth, Dallas pulled all of their funding from GSW and sank it all into Love Field. The FAA got pissed because with Dallas not closing its airport, they'd have to indefinitely fund two redundant commercial airports for Dallas and Fort Worth. They forced the construction of DFW and the abandonment of GSW to force Dallas to give up DAL. The FAA was clear on this at the time.
The reason the Wright Amendment happened was because when Southwest started at DAL, the federal government didn't want the city of Dallas to pull out of DFW and put them back in a position of having to fund two separate airports again. That would be more expensive and risk making DFW financially infeasible. By the time it was repealed, it was clear air traffic out of the Dallas-Fort Worth metroplex had grown enough that DFW and DAL could both be feasible.
Don't go injecting facts into the conversation.
Quote from: Scott5114 on April 13, 2022, 03:36:10 AM
Quote from: HighwayStar on April 12, 2022, 01:57:31 PM
Yeah that is the same line of BS they fed everyone about Love Field, but a funny thing happened over time, people came to love the convenience of an airport close to downtown and the government had to put draconian restrictions on it to prevent people from using it.
That's not what happened at all. Before DFW existed, Fort Worth tried to get Dallas to build a combined airport midway between the two cities that would replace the downtown Fort Worth and Dallas airfields. This was Amon Carter Greater Southwest Airport (GSW). However, because the plans placed the GSW terminal on the west side of the property, closer to Ft. Worth, Dallas pulled all of their funding from GSW and sank it all into Love Field. The FAA got pissed because with Dallas not closing its airport, they'd have to indefinitely fund two redundant commercial airports for Dallas and Fort Worth. They forced the construction of DFW and the abandonment of GSW to force Dallas to give up DAL. The FAA was clear on this at the time.
The reason the Wright Amendment happened was because when Southwest started at DAL, the federal government didn't want the city of Dallas to pull out of DFW and put them back in a position of having to fund two separate airports again. That would be more expensive and risk making DFW financially infeasible. By the time it was repealed, it was clear air traffic out of the Dallas-Fort Worth metroplex had grown enough that DFW and DAL could both be feasible.
I am not concerned with that early history as it is not relevant to my point. The main issue here is that Love Field was kept around after DFW and proved to be a valuable asset. The Wright amendment was an intervention to force people to use a less convenient airport because they knew damn well people would prefer Love Filed. Its repeal had nothing to do with traffic volumes and everything to do with it becoming a political target thanks to Southwest educating the consumer on why they could not get decent flights out of that airport.
If you lived or worked near downtown Dallas, then Love Field was convenient. For everyone else that was closer to DFW, then that was probably more convenient (and the shiny new thing at the time). So you're superimposing that everyone didn't like the new airport, when it was just those with a vested interest in their nearby airport not wanting to drive a little further to the new one, when they might have been happier overall with more flight choices and less traffic in the vicinity of DFW in the mid-1970s.
Anyway, so about those Abandoned Runways Turned Into Roads...which is the actual discussion topic and title, and totally not about conjecture, hearsay, and anecdotes of past and present airport facilities.
Quote from: HighwayStar on April 13, 2022, 11:20:22 AM
I am not concerned with that early history as it is not relevant to my point. The main issue here is that Love Field was kept around after DFW and proved to be a valuable asset. The Wright amendment was an intervention to force people to use a less convenient airport because they knew damn well people would prefer Love Filed. Its repeal had nothing to do with traffic volumes and everything to do with it becoming a political target thanks to Southwest educating the consumer on why they could not get decent flights out of that airport.
I'm going to say this again: Denver is not Dallas-Fort Worth. Stapleton was not Love Field. Denver has precisely zero need, and will have no need, for another airport. DIA meets every need for
people who actually live and fly there, even if you disagree. I'm sure you could find a handful of people in Denver who think as you do, but it is such a small number to be insignificant.
Quote from: FrCorySticha on April 13, 2022, 11:53:21 AM
Quote from: HighwayStar on April 13, 2022, 11:20:22 AM
I am not concerned with that early history as it is not relevant to my point. The main issue here is that Love Field was kept around after DFW and proved to be a valuable asset. The Wright amendment was an intervention to force people to use a less convenient airport because they knew damn well people would prefer Love Filed. Its repeal had nothing to do with traffic volumes and everything to do with it becoming a political target thanks to Southwest educating the consumer on why they could not get decent flights out of that airport.
I'm going to say this again: Denver is not Dallas-Fort Worth. Stapleton was not Love Field. Denver has precisely zero need, and will have no need, for another airport. DIA meets every need for people who actually live and fly there, even if you disagree. I'm sure you could find a handful of people in Denver who think as you do, but it is such a small number to be insignificant.
Asking the public, who have no idea of what could have been, if they think they have good enough airport service is a terrible test of that. There is no reason that the situation is not analogous, Denver is another US city, not a martian hamlet.
Quote from: HighwayStar on April 13, 2022, 11:55:43 AM
Quote from: FrCorySticha on April 13, 2022, 11:53:21 AM
Quote from: HighwayStar on April 13, 2022, 11:20:22 AM
I am not concerned with that early history as it is not relevant to my point. The main issue here is that Love Field was kept around after DFW and proved to be a valuable asset. The Wright amendment was an intervention to force people to use a less convenient airport because they knew damn well people would prefer Love Filed. Its repeal had nothing to do with traffic volumes and everything to do with it becoming a political target thanks to Southwest educating the consumer on why they could not get decent flights out of that airport.
I'm going to say this again: Denver is not Dallas-Fort Worth. Stapleton was not Love Field. Denver has precisely zero need, and will have no need, for another airport. DIA meets every need for people who actually live and fly there, even if you disagree. I'm sure you could find a handful of people in Denver who think as you do, but it is such a small number to be insignificant.
Asking the public, who have no idea of what could have been, if they think they have good enough airport service is a terrible test of that. There is no reason that the situation is not analogous, Denver is another US city, not a martian hamlet.
But you are, someone who lives on the other side of the country? I would trust the public who
actually use the airport over you. Show me the groundswell in Denver to have another, closer airport. Show me those who have ever regretted not having Stapleton. You have Google. Show them to me.
Quote from: HighwayStar on April 13, 2022, 11:20:22 AM
Quote from: Scott5114 on April 13, 2022, 03:36:10 AM
Quote from: HighwayStar on April 12, 2022, 01:57:31 PM
Yeah that is the same line of BS they fed everyone about Love Field, but a funny thing happened over time, people came to love the convenience of an airport close to downtown and the government had to put draconian restrictions on it to prevent people from using it.
That's not what happened at all. Before DFW existed, Fort Worth tried to get Dallas to build a combined airport midway between the two cities that would replace the downtown Fort Worth and Dallas airfields. This was Amon Carter Greater Southwest Airport (GSW). However, because the plans placed the GSW terminal on the west side of the property, closer to Ft. Worth, Dallas pulled all of their funding from GSW and sank it all into Love Field. The FAA got pissed because with Dallas not closing its airport, they'd have to indefinitely fund two redundant commercial airports for Dallas and Fort Worth. They forced the construction of DFW and the abandonment of GSW to force Dallas to give up DAL. The FAA was clear on this at the time.
The reason the Wright Amendment happened was because when Southwest started at DAL, the federal government didn't want the city of Dallas to pull out of DFW and put them back in a position of having to fund two separate airports again. That would be more expensive and risk making DFW financially infeasible. By the time it was repealed, it was clear air traffic out of the Dallas-Fort Worth metroplex had grown enough that DFW and DAL could both be feasible.
I am not concerned with that early history as it is not relevant to my point. The main issue here is that Love Field was kept around after DFW and proved to be a valuable asset. The Wright amendment was an intervention to force people to use a less convenient airport because they knew damn well people would prefer Love Filed. Its repeal had nothing to do with traffic volumes and everything to do with it becoming a political target thanks to Southwest educating the consumer on why they could not get decent flights out of that airport.
So you think that the best solution would have been analogous to LGA and JFK, or DCA and IAD?
Quote from: FrCorySticha on April 13, 2022, 11:57:27 AM
Quote from: HighwayStar on April 13, 2022, 11:55:43 AM
Quote from: FrCorySticha on April 13, 2022, 11:53:21 AM
Quote from: HighwayStar on April 13, 2022, 11:20:22 AM
I am not concerned with that early history as it is not relevant to my point. The main issue here is that Love Field was kept around after DFW and proved to be a valuable asset. The Wright amendment was an intervention to force people to use a less convenient airport because they knew damn well people would prefer Love Filed. Its repeal had nothing to do with traffic volumes and everything to do with it becoming a political target thanks to Southwest educating the consumer on why they could not get decent flights out of that airport.
I'm going to say this again: Denver is not Dallas-Fort Worth. Stapleton was not Love Field. Denver has precisely zero need, and will have no need, for another airport. DIA meets every need for people who actually live and fly there, even if you disagree. I'm sure you could find a handful of people in Denver who think as you do, but it is such a small number to be insignificant.
Asking the public, who have no idea of what could have been, if they think they have good enough airport service is a terrible test of that. There is no reason that the situation is not analogous, Denver is another US city, not a martian hamlet.
But you are, someone who lives on the other side of the country? I would trust the public who actually use the airport over you. Show me the groundswell in Denver to have another, closer airport. Show me those who have ever regretted not having Stapleton. You have Google. Show them to me.
Again, most people would never have formed an option on the matter, one airport was taken away and another put in its place. Most have no idea what happened or why it was sub optimal. Its like asking a 3rd grader to teach calculus.
Quote from: HighwayStar on April 13, 2022, 12:01:14 PM
Again, most people would never have formed an option on the matter, one airport was taken away and another put in its place. Most have no idea what happened or why it was sub optimal. Its like asking a 3rd grader to teach calculus.
Or, another possibility, they know better than you. But what do they know? They're just the people who actually live there and know the situation first hand.
I'm done. Have your "I out argued on the Internet!" trophy.
Quote from: HighwayStar on April 13, 2022, 12:01:14 PM
Most have no idea what happened or why it was sub optimal.
It was optimal.
Quote from: HighwayStar on April 13, 2022, 11:20:22 AM
Quote from: Scott5114 on April 13, 2022, 03:36:10 AM
Quote from: HighwayStar on April 12, 2022, 01:57:31 PM
Yeah that is the same line of BS they fed everyone about Love Field, but a funny thing happened over time, people came to love the convenience of an airport close to downtown and the government had to put draconian restrictions on it to prevent people from using it.
That's not what happened at all. Before DFW existed, Fort Worth tried to get Dallas to build a combined airport midway between the two cities that would replace the downtown Fort Worth and Dallas airfields. This was Amon Carter Greater Southwest Airport (GSW). However, because the plans placed the GSW terminal on the west side of the property, closer to Ft. Worth, Dallas pulled all of their funding from GSW and sank it all into Love Field. The FAA got pissed because with Dallas not closing its airport, they'd have to indefinitely fund two redundant commercial airports for Dallas and Fort Worth. They forced the construction of DFW and the abandonment of GSW to force Dallas to give up DAL. The FAA was clear on this at the time.
The reason the Wright Amendment happened was because when Southwest started at DAL, the federal government didn't want the city of Dallas to pull out of DFW and put them back in a position of having to fund two separate airports again. That would be more expensive and risk making DFW financially infeasible. By the time it was repealed, it was clear air traffic out of the Dallas-Fort Worth metroplex had grown enough that DFW and DAL could both be feasible.
I am not concerned with that early history as it is not relevant to my point.
Then your point has no bearing on reality and you posting here is a waste of everyone's time.
Quote from: kphoger on April 12, 2022, 02:13:53 PM
Going to Stapleton, it was like, there's a gas station, there's a crack house, there's the airport, there's a porn store, oh wait! turn around! we missed the airport!
:-D
Quote from: formulanone on April 12, 2022, 09:38:15 AM
Quote from: kphoger on April 12, 2022, 09:31:49 AM
DIA is a better airport than Stapleton was anyway.
I never flew to/from Stapleton but the old photos looks like it was in need of expansion, but there wasn't any additional room for it. I'm comparing it to today's DEN, so that's not a perfect comparison, but it's hard to deny that as a valid reason to "move" the whole shebang way out into the sticks. Anything else smacks of story telling and yarn spinning.
Too bad the annexation door was slammed on Denver like it was...
Mike
If the population of Colorado Springs keeps up its trajectory, then it will probably become the de facto second airport for the Denver metro area (though it's a different agglomeration).
Quote from: Scott5114 on April 13, 2022, 03:23:36 PM
Quote from: HighwayStar on April 13, 2022, 11:20:22 AM
Quote from: Scott5114 on April 13, 2022, 03:36:10 AM
Quote from: HighwayStar on April 12, 2022, 01:57:31 PM
Yeah that is the same line of BS they fed everyone about Love Field, but a funny thing happened over time, people came to love the convenience of an airport close to downtown and the government had to put draconian restrictions on it to prevent people from using it.
That's not what happened at all. Before DFW existed, Fort Worth tried to get Dallas to build a combined airport midway between the two cities that would replace the downtown Fort Worth and Dallas airfields. This was Amon Carter Greater Southwest Airport (GSW). However, because the plans placed the GSW terminal on the west side of the property, closer to Ft. Worth, Dallas pulled all of their funding from GSW and sank it all into Love Field. The FAA got pissed because with Dallas not closing its airport, they'd have to indefinitely fund two redundant commercial airports for Dallas and Fort Worth. They forced the construction of DFW and the abandonment of GSW to force Dallas to give up DAL. The FAA was clear on this at the time.
The reason the Wright Amendment happened was because when Southwest started at DAL, the federal government didn't want the city of Dallas to pull out of DFW and put them back in a position of having to fund two separate airports again. That would be more expensive and risk making DFW financially infeasible. By the time it was repealed, it was clear air traffic out of the Dallas-Fort Worth metroplex had grown enough that DFW and DAL could both be feasible.
I am not concerned with that early history as it is not relevant to my point.
Then your point has no bearing on reality and you posting here is a waste of everyone's time.
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