The Atlantic had a great review (https://www.theatlantic.com/books/archive/2022/06/meet-me-by-the-fountain-malls-book-review/661340/) of Meet Me By The Fountain by Alexandra Lange.
Predictions of the demise of the shopping mall go back decades and recently, photos of "dead malls" have been a staple in the press. But did you know mall visits in 2021 were 5% higher than before the pandemic?
The book debunks the snobbery shoveled at the mall by so many, including Victor Gruen, the man who invented it. The author notes what should be very obvious: that the mall is not just a place to spend money, but serves as a meeting place, just like Main Street used to be. She also notes how malls have adapted with new non-retail tenants.
I agree 100%. I find my local mall, Natick Mall, much more lively than Downtown Wellesley could ever hope to be. There are people from all walks of life there. And the mall is adapting. The space left behind when Sears closed has been replaced by a Wegmans. They also have apartments. Of course, that's not nearly as far as other malls have gone with aquariums, movie theaters, fine dining, and even offices.
I think the mall is going to be around for a long time to come.
The indoor mall is about as dead as it can be. There is a lot of reasons that concept was already in decline by the turn of the century, even really before online retail took off. All the same there will always be a place for brick and mortar retail, even if it takes up less of the overall retail market share. Strip malls/shopping centers seems to be the model that has held up versus the indoor mall.
In the retail business I'm part of we basically bottomed out around 2018-2019. We actually really didn't see much of a hit during 2020 despite COVID restrictions and there was a substantial rebound year in 2021. Really though the main store isn't what is growing, it is things like unstaffed mini markets and other smaller stores that carry mainly grab-n-go consumables.
A 5% increase from pre-pandemic levels doesn't mean much if that level was already substantially lower than a few years earlier.
Could have fooled me that malls aren't dinosaurs plodding toward extinction based on any time I've ever driven past the two malls in my city. Giant, empty parking lots all the time. One of them has Dave & Busters as an anchor tenant. (D&B: the suburban arcade for alcoholic man-children. :-D )
Malls in the 20th century sense are never going to be "cool" again. That's why they're tearing so many of them down these days and turning them into fake downtowns with names that contain pretentious misspellings of "town" and "center". :P
Quote from: triplemultiplex on June 22, 2022, 11:59:51 AM
Could have fooled me that malls aren't dinosaurs plodding toward extinction based on any time I've ever driven past the two malls in my city. Giant, empty parking lots all the time. One of them has Dave & Busters as an anchor tenant. (D&B: the suburban arcade for alcoholic man-children. :-D )
Malls in the 20th century sense are never going to be "cool" again. That's why they're tearing so many of them down these days and turning them into fake downtowns with names that contain pretentious misspellings of "town" and "center". :P
Have you walked inside those malls? Many of them have oversized parking lots for Black Friday.
I haven't encountered any dead malls. In my neck of the woods, Natick malls is doing fine, so are the shops at Chestnut Hill and the Burlington mall just finished a major expansion. My childhood mall in Danbury, CT was also bustling when I last visited.
^^^
In 2004 the Dillard's store I was loss prevention at in downtown Scottsdale at Fashion Square Mall did over $4 million on Black Friday. That store has an overall volume of $150 million. I guarantee the volume is less than half today and maybe they do $1-1.5 million on a Black Friday. Black Friday got over saturated by the big retailer and a lot of people jumped to online retail to avoid the hassle. I kind of find it amusing now that people are freaked out by the prospect of a 500k day when that used to be a normal Saturday/Sunday.
Quote from: kphoger on June 22, 2022, 11:50:53 AM
A 5% increase from pre-pandemic levels doesn't mean much if that level was already substantially lower than a few years earlier.
We had an overall 17% increase. Locally that translates to about a 5-6% increase for the main store. The remote locations I cited above were the stores that drove the majority of the increase.
Quote from: kernals12 on June 22, 2022, 12:25:20 PM
I haven't encountered any dead malls.
We have a whole thread dedicated to them: https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=4059.525
For balance, there's also this: https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=29458.0
I was shocked by the number of people at Woodfield in Chicago when I was there recently. Busiest I've ever seen a mall.
Quote from: kphoger on June 22, 2022, 12:30:34 PM
For balance, there's also this: https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=29458.0
And for even more balance, there's also this: https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=22917.0
Quote from: kernals12 on June 22, 2022, 12:25:20 PM
Have you walked inside those malls? Many of them have oversized parking lots for Black Friday.
Which is an incredible waste of valuable urban real estate that is also unnecessarily contributing to excessive storm runoff.
I'm sorry but fuck Black Friday. That's just the worst excuse to waste land in this manner. All that pavement because it
might get used for a few hours per year? That's madness. Late capitalism at its finest.
The last time I was in either of our malls, pretty sure I saw tumbleweeds. There was nothing in there for me anyway.
Ever notice how the entrance to every mall everywhere has that same nasty, old cigarette smell because jerk-off smokers feel entitled to take one last drag in the breezeway and toss their butts in the planters and stuff? But I suppose that just sets stage for the olfactory assault that is the shopping mall as the smell of bad cookies and the worst pizza money can buy wafts through the place and swirls with the acetate from the nail solon and the chlorine from the tacky fountain. Mall smell is inescapable.
Quote from: triplemultiplex on June 22, 2022, 01:56:49 PM
Which is an incredible waste of valuable urban real estate that is also unnecessarily contributing to excessive storm runoff.
I'm sorry but fuck Black Friday. That's just the worst excuse to waste land in this manner. All that pavement because it might get used for a few hours per year? That's madness. Late capitalism at its finest.
I'm curious to know how many of those spaces are actually "extra", and how many are required by law. After all, don't forget...
Quote from: jeffandnicole on March 23, 2022, 09:53:24 AM
To expand on that: Commercial properties are required to have a certain number of spaces per square footage of the building: ie, 5 spaces per 1,000 square feet. This generally leans towards very large parking lots where the further away spaces are never used.
Quote from: jeffandnicole on June 25, 2014, 09:12:26 AM
It can vary, but in NJ, generally it's 5 parking spots per 1,000 sq ft of building space. So a 200,000 sq ft Walmart would have about 1,000 parking spots.
Th big late 20th century mall in my area (Fox River Mall at I-41/College Ave (WI 125) and Wisconsin Ave (WI 96) near Appleton, WI) has been in a slow, inexorable decline since at least the double aughts now. I have some ideas on comprehensive redo of that area, but no money to do it. The township that it is in will be suffering BIG TIME when it finally dies for good, too.
:spin:
I stand by my thoughts on them - "Malls are sooooo 'last century'.
Mike
Quote from: triplemultiplex on June 22, 2022, 01:56:49 PM
Quote from: kernals12 on June 22, 2022, 12:25:20 PM
Have you walked inside those malls? Many of them have oversized parking lots for Black Friday.
All that pavement because it might get used for a few hours per year?
Dying malls have also been a good source of autocrosses and gymkhana, so add in...50 more hours per year...
Seriously, while not all malls are "dead", they're rarely (if ever) building all-new enclosed malls. We're at an inflection point where there's fewer half-busy malls than the closed and demolished facilities, which was a looming event since the 1990s, when every town got one but they didn't all need one. The indoor mall still works in places that have long bouts of crappy weather; cold weather is one thing, but excessive precipitation dampens enthusiasm and those purchases. Hey, eleven months out of the year, you don't have to fight for a great parking space. But I may visit one about once every year or two at most, way down from the 5-10 visits a year when I was a teenager.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not fan of the "lifestyle center" model with lots of overwrought frippery, limited design substance, overpriced knick-knacks, and a long walk to the parking lots which suck when it's raining. That any mall can thrive and re-invent itself is a good thing, but many of them are declining until the next concept can take over that real estate, and that's how it goes in America.
Quote from: triplemultiplex on June 22, 2022, 01:56:49 PM
Which is an incredible waste of valuable urban real estate that is also unnecessarily contributing to excessive storm runoff.
I'm sorry but fuck Black Friday. That's just the worst excuse to waste land in this manner. All that pavement because it might get used for a few hours per year? That's madness. Late capitalism at its finest.
Quote from: kphoger on June 22, 2022, 02:05:43 PM
I'm curious to know how many of those spaces are actually "extra", and how many are required by law. After all, don't forget...
Quote from: jeffandnicole on March 23, 2022, 09:53:24 AM
To expand on that: Commercial properties are required to have a certain number of spaces per square footage of the building: ie, 5 spaces per 1,000 square feet. This generally leans towards very large parking lots where the further away spaces are never used.
Quote from: jeffandnicole on June 25, 2014, 09:12:26 AM
It can vary, but in NJ, generally it's 5 parking spots per 1,000 sq ft of building space. So a 200,000 sq ft Walmart would have about 1,000 parking spots.
About five or six years ago, I took the extended family out to dinner at Southpointe Mall in Durham, which always seems to be overly crowded. After dropping everyone off wheelchair distance away from the restaurant, I then took off across the vast wilderpavement in search of a parking spot (since invariably, there are never any handicapped spots and I can walk the long distances). Anyhow, there were only a few spots remaining in the nether-reaches of the lot. A couple of cars pulled in beyond me, and lo-and-behold, the (then) mayor of Durham gets out of his car and gets ready for the long hike. I came up with something like "it must be a mayor's wildest dream to have a mall where he can only get the last parking spot". He smiled, and I hope that it made his day better.
The problem I have with the mall here in Norman is that, off the top of my head, it's all clothing and shoe stores. And Bath and Body Works. I don't need any of that often enough to go to the mall regularly enough to find other stores that might cause me to go to the mall more often.
Quail Springs has some other fun stuff in it, like a movie theater and an aquarium, but it's all the way up on Memorial, so it may as well be in Wichita.
Quote from: formulanone on June 22, 2022, 02:24:27 PM
Quote from: triplemultiplex on June 22, 2022, 01:56:49 PM
Quote from: kernals12 on June 22, 2022, 12:25:20 PM
Have you walked inside those malls? Many of them have oversized parking lots for Black Friday.
All that pavement because it might get used for a few hours per year?
Dying malls have also been a good source of autocrosses and gymkhana, so add in...50 more hours per year...
Seriously, while not all malls are "dead", they're rarely (if ever) building all-new enclosed malls. We're at an inflection point where there's fewer half-busy malls than the closed and demolished facilities, which was a looming event since the 1990s, when every town got one but they didn't all need one. The indoor mall still works in places that have long bouts of crappy weather; cold weather is one thing, but excessive precipitation dampens enthusiasm and those purchases. Hey, eleven months out of the year, you don't have to fight for a great parking space. But I may visit one about once every year or two at most, way down from the 5-10 visits a year when I was a teenager.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not fan of the "lifestyle center" model with lots of overwrought frippery, limited design substance, overpriced knick-knacks, and a long walk to the parking lots which suck when it's raining. That any mall can thrive and re-invent itself is a good thing, but many of them are declining until the next concept can take over that real estate, and that's how it goes in America.
One can count on their fingers the number of enclosed and partially enclosed malls built in the 2000s: Flatiron Crossing (Boulder/Denver); City Creek (Salt Lake, which essentially replaced two enclosed malls); Jordan Creek (W. Des Moines); the Mall at University Town Center (Sarasota FL-opened in 2014!).
I am probably forgetting about a few others.
One should also remember that the "lifestyle center" has one thing going for it: it is easier to repurpose than that enclosed mall. Case in point: Broadway Marketplace in Denver (S Broadway and Alameda) had a long-time tenant known as Kmart. After the Kmart closed around 2018, the building was replaced by one apartment building, with another under construction in the parking lot as we speak.
Quote from: brad2971 on June 22, 2022, 07:38:43 PM
Quote from: formulanone on June 22, 2022, 02:24:27 PM
Quote from: triplemultiplex on June 22, 2022, 01:56:49 PM
Quote from: kernals12 on June 22, 2022, 12:25:20 PM
Have you walked inside those malls? Many of them have oversized parking lots for Black Friday.
All that pavement because it might get used for a few hours per year?
Dying malls have also been a good source of autocrosses and gymkhana, so add in...50 more hours per year...
Seriously, while not all malls are "dead", they're rarely (if ever) building all-new enclosed malls. We're at an inflection point where there's fewer half-busy malls than the closed and demolished facilities, which was a looming event since the 1990s, when every town got one but they didn't all need one. The indoor mall still works in places that have long bouts of crappy weather; cold weather is one thing, but excessive precipitation dampens enthusiasm and those purchases. Hey, eleven months out of the year, you don't have to fight for a great parking space. But I may visit one about once every year or two at most, way down from the 5-10 visits a year when I was a teenager.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not fan of the "lifestyle center" model with lots of overwrought frippery, limited design substance, overpriced knick-knacks, and a long walk to the parking lots which suck when it's raining. That any mall can thrive and re-invent itself is a good thing, but many of them are declining until the next concept can take over that real estate, and that's how it goes in America.
One can count on their fingers the number of enclosed and partially enclosed malls built in the 2000s: Flatiron Crossing (Boulder/Denver); City Creek (Salt Lake, which essentially replaced two enclosed malls); Jordan Creek (W. Des Moines); the Mall at University Town Center (Sarasota FL-opened in 2014!).
I am probably forgetting about a few others.
SoNo Collection in Norwalk, CT and American Dream in NJ are two of the most recent indoor malls in the US to open that I can think of. Both opened in late 2019.
Quote from: kernals12 on June 22, 2022, 12:25:20 PM
Have you walked inside those malls? Many of them have oversized parking lots for Black Friday.
The parking lots are generally mandated by state/county/municipal guidelines that mandate a minimum number of parking spaces per square footage of the building. They're not guesses as to how many people will be shopping on Black Friday. If a mall were to open today, the number of parking spots would still be the same, even though it's obvious Black Friday wasn't the brick-and-mortar shopping day it once was.
Quote from: brad2971 on June 22, 2022, 07:38:43 PM
Quote from: formulanone on June 22, 2022, 02:24:27 PM
Quote from: triplemultiplex on June 22, 2022, 01:56:49 PM
Quote from: kernals12 on June 22, 2022, 12:25:20 PM
Have you walked inside those malls? Many of them have oversized parking lots for Black Friday.
All that pavement because it might get used for a few hours per year?
Dying malls have also been a good source of autocrosses and gymkhana, so add in...50 more hours per year...
Seriously, while not all malls are "dead", they're rarely (if ever) building all-new enclosed malls. We're at an inflection point where there's fewer half-busy malls than the closed and demolished facilities, which was a looming event since the 1990s, when every town got one but they didn't all need one. The indoor mall still works in places that have long bouts of crappy weather; cold weather is one thing, but excessive precipitation dampens enthusiasm and those purchases. Hey, eleven months out of the year, you don't have to fight for a great parking space. But I may visit one about once every year or two at most, way down from the 5-10 visits a year when I was a teenager.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not fan of the "lifestyle center" model with lots of overwrought frippery, limited design substance, overpriced knick-knacks, and a long walk to the parking lots which suck when it's raining. That any mall can thrive and re-invent itself is a good thing, but many of them are declining until the next concept can take over that real estate, and that's how it goes in America.
One can count on their fingers the number of enclosed and partially enclosed malls built in the 2000s: Flatiron Crossing (Boulder/Denver); City Creek (Salt Lake, which essentially replaced two enclosed malls); Jordan Creek (W. Des Moines); the Mall at University Town Center (Sarasota FL-opened in 2014!).
I am probably forgetting about a few others.
One should also remember that the "lifestyle center" has one thing going for it: it is easier to repurpose than that enclosed mall. Case in point: Broadway Marketplace in Denver (S Broadway and Alameda) had a long-time tenant known as Kmart. After the Kmart closed around 2018, the building was replaced by one apartment building, with another under construction in the parking lot as we speak.
I wonder why more conversion into apartments doesn't happen. Malls are usually serviced by one or more transit lines and apartment dwellers are more likely to use transit (mostly because they are less likely to own a vehicle). It seems like the perfect place to build apartments especially with the current rental crisis in many metros.
Quote from: skluth on June 22, 2022, 08:23:11 PM
Quote from: brad2971 on June 22, 2022, 07:38:43 PM
Quote from: formulanone on June 22, 2022, 02:24:27 PM
Quote from: triplemultiplex on June 22, 2022, 01:56:49 PM
Quote from: kernals12 on June 22, 2022, 12:25:20 PM
Have you walked inside those malls? Many of them have oversized parking lots for Black Friday.
All that pavement because it might get used for a few hours per year?
Dying malls have also been a good source of autocrosses and gymkhana, so add in...50 more hours per year...
Seriously, while not all malls are "dead", they're rarely (if ever) building all-new enclosed malls. We're at an inflection point where there's fewer half-busy malls than the closed and demolished facilities, which was a looming event since the 1990s, when every town got one but they didn't all need one. The indoor mall still works in places that have long bouts of crappy weather; cold weather is one thing, but excessive precipitation dampens enthusiasm and those purchases. Hey, eleven months out of the year, you don't have to fight for a great parking space. But I may visit one about once every year or two at most, way down from the 5-10 visits a year when I was a teenager.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not fan of the "lifestyle center" model with lots of overwrought frippery, limited design substance, overpriced knick-knacks, and a long walk to the parking lots which suck when it's raining. That any mall can thrive and re-invent itself is a good thing, but many of them are declining until the next concept can take over that real estate, and that's how it goes in America.
One can count on their fingers the number of enclosed and partially enclosed malls built in the 2000s: Flatiron Crossing (Boulder/Denver); City Creek (Salt Lake, which essentially replaced two enclosed malls); Jordan Creek (W. Des Moines); the Mall at University Town Center (Sarasota FL-opened in 2014!).
I am probably forgetting about a few others.
One should also remember that the "lifestyle center" has one thing going for it: it is easier to repurpose than that enclosed mall. Case in point: Broadway Marketplace in Denver (S Broadway and Alameda) had a long-time tenant known as Kmart. After the Kmart closed around 2018, the building was replaced by one apartment building, with another under construction in the parking lot as we speak.
I wonder why more conversion into apartments doesn't happen. Malls are usually serviced by one or more transit lines and apartment dwellers are more likely to use transit (mostly because they are less likely to own a vehicle). It seems like the perfect place to build apartments especially with the current rental crisis in many metros.
Apartments have very different design requirements from retail space (ceiling heights, ventilation, utilities etc.), so much so that it's often cheaper to demolish the mall and build a new apartment complex.
Quote from: Scott5114 on June 22, 2022, 06:35:38 PM
Quail Springs has some other fun stuff in it, like a movie theater and an aquarium, but it's all the way up on Memorial, so it may as well be in Wichita.
You're welcome to stop by our house for dinner while you're out, if that makes it worth the trip.
Quote from: SkyPesos on June 22, 2022, 07:42:39 PM
Quote from: brad2971 on June 22, 2022, 07:38:43 PM
One can count on their fingers the number of enclosed and partially enclosed malls built in the 2000s: Flatiron Crossing (Boulder/Denver); City Creek (Salt Lake, which essentially replaced two enclosed malls); Jordan Creek (W. Des Moines); the Mall at University Town Center (Sarasota FL-opened in 2014!).
I am probably forgetting about a few others.
SoNo Collection in Norwalk, CT and American Dream in NJ are two of the most recent indoor malls in the US to open that I can think of. Both opened in late 2019.
2000: Stonebriar Center mall, Frisco (suburban Dallas), TX
2001: The Shops at Willow Bend, Plano (suburban Dallas), TX
Quote from: jeffandnicole on June 22, 2022, 08:12:55 PM
The parking lots are generally mandated by state/county/municipal guidelines that mandate a minimum number of parking spaces per square footage of the building. They're not guesses as to how many people will be shopping on Black Friday. If a mall were to open today, the number of parking spots would still be the same, even though it's obvious Black Friday wasn't the brick-and-mortar shopping day it once was.
Which is a stupid law/rule/guideline. It's still wasted space. Like when you see the capital of some dictatorship in Asia or whatever with a 12 lane roadway leading to the palace or statue of dear leader or whatever all but vacant. But even lamer because it's a mall.
The obsession with "free" parking is killing us.
There may also be lease provisions requiring certain amounts of parking. That's common in suburban strip malls or similar, for example. At the one in our neighborhood, the grocery stores and a couple of the other stores that are relatively larger compared to other tenants all have lease provisions addressing minimum required parking. There's an ongoing discussion about what sorts of changes should be considered long-term and the parking issue came up as a reason why certain types of redevelopment cannot happen until current retailers' leases expire or are up for renegotiation. I have a feeling most tenants in major shopping malls don't have that sort of provision, but I don't doubt that many of the more significant anchor tenants very well may.
I honestly cannot remember the last time I was in a mall. It's probably been at least 7-8 years.
Pretty much the only time I go to the mall is when one of the boys needs a new pair of shoes.
The last time was actually to buy a hat from Lids for my dad as a Christmas present.
The only reason I go to the local mall is that they have a still-open Barnes and Noble
In my area the mall is a big deal when people have to go to Best Buy for the lastest computer, phone or TV.
The thing to remember is that, after 20 years of widespread internet access, only 13% of all retail sales are online, and until drone delivery is perfected, going to the store is the only way to buy what you want and get it on the same day. Many retailers are adapting by allowing people to order online then pick up at the store. Ironically, Amazon may wind up saving brick and mortar retail. Their Just-Walk-Out technology eliminates the most tedious part of shopping: waiting in the check-out line.
Quote from: kernals12 on June 25, 2022, 10:03:46 AM
... Ironically, Amazon may wind up saving brick and mortar retail. Their Just-Walk-Out technology eliminates the most tedious part of shopping: waiting in the check-out line.
I've used that a couple of times at the Amazon Fresh grocery store near us. Haven't been able to use it every time because a couple of times they didn't have any of the special shopping carts available. But it's really interesting to use that function when it's available. For once I agree 100% with kernals12 about something: The traditional grocery store checkout system is a massive waste of time. You take everything out of your cart and put it on a checkout belt so a store employee can rearrange it and put it all back in your cart.
Amazon's system, in which the special carts have barcode scanners inside, seems like it may be better-designed to combat the understandable shoplifting concerns that probably make some grocery stores reluctant to implement the self-scan systems offered as an option at some stores. The self-scan system will occasionally require an employee to audit your purchase by re-scanning some number of items for verification, but there are still going to be people who slip in small extra items or who scan a cheaper item and then put a more expensive item in the cart. Amazon's carts seem to be designed to prevent that sort of thing, although I'm sure some miscreant somewhere will find a way.
Quote from: 1995hoo on June 25, 2022, 10:46:02 AM
Quote from: kernals12 on June 25, 2022, 10:03:46 AM
... Ironically, Amazon may wind up saving brick and mortar retail. Their Just-Walk-Out technology eliminates the most tedious part of shopping: waiting in the check-out line.
I've used that a couple of times at the Amazon Fresh grocery store near us. Haven't been able to use it every time because a couple of times they didn't have any of the special shopping carts available. But it's really interesting to use that function when it's available. For once I agree 100% with kernals12 about something: The traditional grocery store checkout system is a massive waste of time. You take everything out of your cart and put it on a checkout belt so a store employee can rearrange it and put it all back in your cart.
Amazon's system, in which the special carts have barcode scanners inside, seems like it may be better-designed to combat the understandable shoplifting concerns that probably make some grocery stores reluctant to implement the self-scan systems offered as an option at some stores. The self-scan system will occasionally require an employee to audit your purchase by re-scanning some number of items for verification, but there are still going to be people who slip in small extra items or who scan a cheaper item and then put a more expensive item in the cart. Amazon's carts seem to be designed to prevent that sort of thing, although I'm sure some miscreant somewhere will find a way.
What ever happened to the "every item gets a RFID device" concept? I remember reading not long ago that retailers wanted to put a small RFID device on everything and the devices could be read in the shopping cart. You'd just pull up to the cashier or self-checkout where the RFID scanner detects and registers your items faster than any cashier, pay the cashier or machine, and leave with your purchases. Shoppers could place their purchases in their bags as they shop. No need to scan. Much harder to cheat the system if you can't access the tags to swap them surreptitiously.
Many items already have RFID tags, especially big box merchandise products from TVs to clothing. It might be too difficult for items like produce. But if you can get through your cart with the only things needing to be scanned being a few bananas or avocados it might still work.
Quote from: skluth on June 25, 2022, 11:22:43 AM
Quote from: 1995hoo on June 25, 2022, 10:46:02 AM
Quote from: kernals12 on June 25, 2022, 10:03:46 AM
... Ironically, Amazon may wind up saving brick and mortar retail. Their Just-Walk-Out technology eliminates the most tedious part of shopping: waiting in the check-out line.
I've used that a couple of times at the Amazon Fresh grocery store near us. Haven't been able to use it every time because a couple of times they didn't have any of the special shopping carts available. But it's really interesting to use that function when it's available. For once I agree 100% with kernals12 about something: The traditional grocery store checkout system is a massive waste of time. You take everything out of your cart and put it on a checkout belt so a store employee can rearrange it and put it all back in your cart.
Amazon's system, in which the special carts have barcode scanners inside, seems like it may be better-designed to combat the understandable shoplifting concerns that probably make some grocery stores reluctant to implement the self-scan systems offered as an option at some stores. The self-scan system will occasionally require an employee to audit your purchase by re-scanning some number of items for verification, but there are still going to be people who slip in small extra items or who scan a cheaper item and then put a more expensive item in the cart. Amazon's carts seem to be designed to prevent that sort of thing, although I'm sure some miscreant somewhere will find a way.
What ever happened to the "every item gets a RFID device" concept? I remember reading not long ago that retailers wanted to put a small RFID device on everything and the devices could be read in the shopping cart. You'd just pull up to the cashier or self-checkout where the RFID scanner detects and registers your items faster than any cashier, pay the cashier or machine, and leave with your purchases. Shoppers could place their purchases in their bags as they shop. No need to scan. Much harder to cheat the system if you can't access the tags to swap them surreptitiously.
Many items already have RFID tags, especially big box merchandise products from TVs to clothing. It might be too difficult for items like produce. But if you can get through your cart with the only things needing to be scanned being a few bananas or avocados it might still work.
Costs too much per item. The last pricing I recall seeing for RFIDs was $0.10 cents per tag. Vendors don't want to absorb the cost of individual RFID tags for standalone items and retailers don't want to pay employees to affix them.
Basically this is pretty similar to how EAS tags originally had to be affixed at the store level. Vendors outright refused to source tag EAS until the price point became basically nominal. The last pricing I've seen for EAS tags has them running at a range of $0.02-0.04 cents a unit. I think you are mistaking clothing and electronics tags for RFID when they are vendor sourced EAS.
Quote from: skluth on June 25, 2022, 11:22:43 AM
Quote from: 1995hoo on June 25, 2022, 10:46:02 AM
Quote from: kernals12 on June 25, 2022, 10:03:46 AM
... Ironically, Amazon may wind up saving brick and mortar retail. Their Just-Walk-Out technology eliminates the most tedious part of shopping: waiting in the check-out line.
I've used that a couple of times at the Amazon Fresh grocery store near us. Haven't been able to use it every time because a couple of times they didn't have any of the special shopping carts available. But it's really interesting to use that function when it's available. For once I agree 100% with kernals12 about something: The traditional grocery store checkout system is a massive waste of time. You take everything out of your cart and put it on a checkout belt so a store employee can rearrange it and put it all back in your cart.
Amazon's system, in which the special carts have barcode scanners inside, seems like it may be better-designed to combat the understandable shoplifting concerns that probably make some grocery stores reluctant to implement the self-scan systems offered as an option at some stores. The self-scan system will occasionally require an employee to audit your purchase by re-scanning some number of items for verification, but there are still going to be people who slip in small extra items or who scan a cheaper item and then put a more expensive item in the cart. Amazon's carts seem to be designed to prevent that sort of thing, although I'm sure some miscreant somewhere will find a way.
What ever happened to the "every item gets a RFID device" concept? I remember reading not long ago that retailers wanted to put a small RFID device on everything and the devices could be read in the shopping cart. You'd just pull up to the cashier or self-checkout where the RFID scanner detects and registers your items faster than any cashier, pay the cashier or machine, and leave with your purchases. Shoppers could place their purchases in their bags as they shop. No need to scan. Much harder to cheat the system if you can't access the tags to swap them surreptitiously.
Many items already have RFID tags, especially big box merchandise products from TVs to clothing. It might be too difficult for items like produce. But if you can get through your cart with the only things needing to be scanned being a few bananas or avocados it might still work.
But then why don't electronics and clothing retailers allow self check-out?
^^^
Because the tags are likely EAS and not RFID.
Quote from: skluth on June 25, 2022, 11:22:43 AM
Quote from: 1995hoo on June 25, 2022, 10:46:02 AM
Quote from: kernals12 on June 25, 2022, 10:03:46 AM
... Ironically, Amazon may wind up saving brick and mortar retail. Their Just-Walk-Out technology eliminates the most tedious part of shopping: waiting in the check-out line.
I've used that a couple of times at the Amazon Fresh grocery store near us. Haven't been able to use it every time because a couple of times they didn't have any of the special shopping carts available. But it's really interesting to use that function when it's available. For once I agree 100% with kernals12 about something: The traditional grocery store checkout system is a massive waste of time. You take everything out of your cart and put it on a checkout belt so a store employee can rearrange it and put it all back in your cart.
Amazon's system, in which the special carts have barcode scanners inside, seems like it may be better-designed to combat the understandable shoplifting concerns that probably make some grocery stores reluctant to implement the self-scan systems offered as an option at some stores. The self-scan system will occasionally require an employee to audit your purchase by re-scanning some number of items for verification, but there are still going to be people who slip in small extra items or who scan a cheaper item and then put a more expensive item in the cart. Amazon's carts seem to be designed to prevent that sort of thing, although I'm sure some miscreant somewhere will find a way.
What ever happened to the "every item gets a RFID device" concept? I remember reading not long ago that retailers wanted to put a small RFID device on everything and the devices could be read in the shopping cart. You'd just pull up to the cashier or self-checkout where the RFID scanner detects and registers your items faster than any cashier, pay the cashier or machine, and leave with your purchases. Shoppers could place their purchases in their bags as they shop. No need to scan. Much harder to cheat the system if you can't access the tags to swap them surreptitiously.
Many items already have RFID tags, especially big box merchandise products from TVs to clothing. It might be too difficult for items like produce. But if you can get through your cart with the only things needing to be scanned being a few bananas or avocados it might still work.
Meanwhile their Go Grocery stores use cameras to track everything instead of needing a special cart or RFID tags. It's also being used at Climate Pledge Arena, which is a great use case (high customer volume in a space that can be tightly controlled).
I wouldn't want to shop at a store where all checkout is automatically done with RFID tags or whatever. Too many chances for the company to rip you off by having the wrong tag scan, double scan, etc., and if you have 100+ items (like at a grocery store or whatever) it is too much trouble to stand there and audit the receipt before paying. And it would be even worse if there's no human there to immediately resolve any disputes and you're expected to go through some byzantine appeals system.
At least with a human checker you can casually keep an eye on what they're doing and if you hear a double beep or whatever ask for them to stop and check that it was scanned correctly.
Quote from: Scott5114 on June 25, 2022, 05:20:27 PM
I wouldn't want to shop at a store where all checkout is automatically done with RFID tags or whatever. Too many chances for the company to rip you off by having the wrong tag scan, double scan, etc., and if you have 100+ items (like at a grocery store or whatever) it is too much trouble to stand there and audit the receipt before paying. And it would be even worse if there's no human there to immediately resolve any disputes and you're expected to go through some byzantine appeals system.
At least with a human checker you can casually keep an eye on what they're doing and if you hear a double beep or whatever ask for them to stop and check that it was scanned correctly.
I don't see RFID as being any worse as self-checkout is now. All self-checkouts I have been in have people for assistance if things go awry.
Quote from: Rothman on June 25, 2022, 07:09:08 PM
Quote from: Scott5114 on June 25, 2022, 05:20:27 PM
I wouldn't want to shop at a store where all checkout is automatically done with RFID tags or whatever. Too many chances for the company to rip you off by having the wrong tag scan, double scan, etc., and if you have 100+ items (like at a grocery store or whatever) it is too much trouble to stand there and audit the receipt before paying. And it would be even worse if there's no human there to immediately resolve any disputes and you're expected to go through some byzantine appeals system.
At least with a human checker you can casually keep an eye on what they're doing and if you hear a double beep or whatever ask for them to stop and check that it was scanned correctly.
I don't see RFID as being any worse as self-checkout is now. All self-checkouts I have been in have people for assistance if things go awry.
Yes, but with a self-checkout the customer is actively part of the process. I know immediately if something double-scans and flag down the attendant for help.
I seem to remember reading in some of Amazon's pilot stores, you don't even explicitly check out. It just keeps track of what it thinks you walked out the door with, and then charges your credit card accordingly.
My observation: here in the KC area (Overland Park), Oak Park Mall is doing pretty well. I love it!
Quote from: Scott5114 on June 25, 2022, 05:20:27 PM
I wouldn't want to shop at a store where all checkout is automatically done with RFID tags or whatever. Too many chances for the company to rip you off by having the wrong tag scan, double scan, etc., and if you have 100+ items (like at a grocery store or whatever) it is too much trouble to stand there and audit the receipt before paying. And it would be even worse if there's no human there to immediately resolve any disputes and you're expected to go through some byzantine appeals system.
At least with a human checker you can casually keep an eye on what they're doing and if you hear a double beep or whatever ask for them to stop and check that it was scanned correctly.
The special carts at the Amazon Fresh store that I mentioned above work well in this respect because they have a screen that shows you what you've put in your cart, what it costs, and your running tab.
The only big mall around here that isn't dead (as compared to the original mall here in South Jacksonville, the old Philips Highway Plaza) is the nearby Avenues Mall, same zip code as mine. The Town Center doesn't count as it is an outdoor mall. Plus, Gate Parkway isn't always as well maintained as the State Roads that lead you to the older mall. Not to mention the occasionally bad traffic on it. Otherwise, you'd have to slog across the river to Orange Park and its mall, and that's not an easy trip whenever the Buckman Bridge is filled with traffic.
A recent casualty of the metro area is the original St. Augustine outlet mall, the one that was indoors. Strange to have seen it sit around not really being used for much. The outdoor version across 95 doesn't count as a traditional mall.
Quote from: JayhawkCO on June 23, 2022, 04:08:28 PM
I honestly cannot remember the last time I was in a mall. It's probably been at least 7-8 years.
I have not left any money behind at Fox River Mall here in the Appleton, WI area in at least 20 years, now, too.
Mike.
I remember the Natick Mall back when it was a typical postwar suburban shopping center with middle-of-the-road stores and a food court. Only a distant memory now. It was able to reinvent itself as a collection of upscale retailers and residences (in fact, I think the literal name is Collection), as it is located in a largely recession-resistant area with lots of affluence, which is why it continues to thrive. Reinvention appears to be the critical word for mall survival, as old stores leave (JC Penney) and new ones elect to move in (Wegmans), with other uses mixed in (condos).
Closer to me, the Arsenal Mall us technically dead, but is being reborn as Arsenal Yards with multiple mixed uses, spurred on by those priced out of or who want proximity to Cambridge. The Watertown Mall across the street is almost dead but will never die because of the RMV, Best Buy, and Target.
Quote from: Ted$8roadFan on June 26, 2022, 03:58:56 PM
I remember the Natick Mall back when it was a typical postwar suburban shopping center with middle-of-the-road stores and a food court. Only a distant memory now. It was able to reinvent itself as a collection of upscale retailers and residences (in fact, I think the literal name is Collection), as it is located in a largely recession-resistant area with lots of affluence, which is why it continues to thrive. Reinvention appears to be the critical word for mall survival, as old stores leave (JC Penney) and new ones elect to move in (Wegmans), with other uses mixed in (condos).
The Natick Mall is back to that name for whatever reason. As much as the stores are recession proof, the condos went for sale in 2007-2008, and some people bought those condos at super high prices relative to the huge price drop on the unsold ones as the last recession kicked in. I think the last unsold ones sold at about 50% of the first ones sold.
Quote from: Scott5114 on June 25, 2022, 07:40:33 PM
I seem to remember reading in some of Amazon's pilot stores, you don't even explicitly check out. It just keeps track of what it thinks you walked out the door with, and then charges your credit card accordingly.
This is the case for their Go (convenience stores) and Go Grocery/Fresh (actual grocery stores) brands. Usually I get a notification a few minutes after leaving with a virtual receipt and a feedback button to correct mistakes. I did have a few errors in the first few uses (back when the stores had just opened for public use), but now they've become fairly streamlined.
Much prefer it to dealing with self-checkout machines that yell and scream at you for everything. Way too much pressure when there's a line of people behind you as well.
Those self checkout machines are the bane of my existence. They are constantly screwing up and yelling at me to put stuff in the bagging area that I already fucking did. They're lucky they don't sell crowbars at the grocery store because I would have put one through a goddamn self-checkout machine by now.
Quote from: triplemultiplex on June 27, 2022, 04:45:37 PM
Those self checkout machines are the bane of my existence. They are constantly screwing up and yelling at me to put stuff in the bagging area that I already fucking did. They're lucky they don't sell crowbars at the grocery store because I would have put one through a goddamn self-checkout machine by now.
They're annoying but I refuse to stand behind someone with a $400 cart when I just need to pick up a thing of sour cream.
Self-checkouts became a lot less frustrating to me when I had one of the clerks explain the meaning of the red/green light. When the light is red it is weighing the basket and won't scan any items. Most of the time, if you don't touch the machine at all while the red light is on, it won't complain.
Quote from: Scott5114 on June 27, 2022, 04:58:03 PM
Self-checkouts became a lot less frustrating to me when I had one of the clerks explain the meaning of the red/green light. When the light is red it is weighing the basket and won't scan any items. Most of the time, if you don't touch the machine at all while the red light is on, it won't complain.
I don't know that I know what red/green light you're referring to. Might be a store specific thing?
Quote from: triplemultiplex on June 27, 2022, 04:45:37 PM
Those self checkout machines are the bane of my existence. They are constantly screwing up and yelling at me to put stuff in the bagging area that I already fucking did. They're lucky they don't sell crowbars at the grocery store because I would have put one through a goddamn self-checkout machine by now.
Lord help you if all you went to the store for was a single habanero pepper, and the self-checkout machine can't register 15 ounces' worth of product.
Quote from: JayhawkCO on June 27, 2022, 05:10:25 PM
Quote from: Scott5114 on June 27, 2022, 04:58:03 PM
Self-checkouts became a lot less frustrating to me when I had one of the clerks explain the meaning of the red/green light. When the light is red it is weighing the basket and won't scan any items. Most of the time, if you don't touch the machine at all while the red light is on, it won't complain.
I don't know that I know what red/green light you're referring to. Might be a store specific thing?
It's been on every one that I've used. It's not very attention-getting, you have to kind of notice it's there.
(https://miro.medium.com/max/1200/1*7jkZoYnm88Nyk59JrTuAWw.jpeg)
On this one, which is similar to the ones Walmart uses around here, it's the row of five red lights above the scanner. (They would turn green when the machine is ready for the next item.)
Hmmm... this looks pretty close to all of them around me and I don't see anything similar.
(https://ychef.files.bbci.co.uk/976x549/p052gc5b.jpg)
Might be one of the three lights to the left of the scanner. Keep an eye on it next time you go and see if you notice one of them changing whenever you scan an item. (On the NCR models used around here, you will also often hear an audible click when the light changes color, as the coin acceptor diverter switches into and out of the "reject all coins" position.)
From looking at various YouTube videos, I think the Kroger (Dillon's) ones may have green lights showing when it's ready, but they don't have red lights showing when it isn't.
(https://i0.wp.com/culinarylore.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/06/modern-self-checkout-grocery-scaled.jpg)
I haven't had a self-checkout machine tell me to put something in the bagging area for quite some time now -- like multiple years.
I had one do it last night at a QFC (Kroger). And a few days before at Safeway.
But plenty of parking is one of the few advantages the malls actually have!
I went to a mall about a month ago - Alderwood Mall, between Seattle and Everett. There were some other customers but not many. The stock in Macy's was in disarray - I was mainly looking for shoes and they just had a big pile of shoeboxes on the tables not in any order by style or size or anything. The boxes were closed so you'd have to open them or learn the meaning of the pseudo-hoity toity product names to find something you'd want to try on.
I really want to be able to try on clothes and footwear for a good fit. I don't want to live with something not quite right from Amazon.
Quote from: Rothman on June 27, 2022, 06:58:44 PM
I haven't had a self-checkout machine tell me to put something in the bagging area for quite some time now -- like multiple years.
I've had the problem of the bags being hard to open and it would tell me to place the item there when i was trying to open the bag.
Quote from: Big John on June 27, 2022, 09:04:44 PM
Quote from: Rothman on June 27, 2022, 06:58:44 PM
I haven't had a self-checkout machine tell me to put something in the bagging area for quite some time now -- like multiple years.
I've had the problem of the bags being hard to open and it would tell me to place the item there when i was trying to open the bag.
Here in NY, 99% of the time there are no bags, so there is no problem.
Also very happy that our self-checkout places are more evolved than in other states where they still check for placement in the bagging area by weight or whatnot. Like I said, it used to be that way here; I think stores got sick of paying employees to keep helping customers when they held up the line due to that crap. Time for other states to make the same realization and get out of living in the '00s! :D
Personally, I still like going to a mall. I just like the experience of going out getting out of the house. It's also a place to hang out with friends or go out on a date. You can't do any of that shopping online. I am not a big fan of shopping online anyways. I have had my identity stolen. I was once sent 2 shirts when I only ordered one I had to pay $9 for the return. I ordered a book that never came. I try avoid shopping online as much as possible.
Quote from: dvferyance on June 28, 2022, 03:53:56 PM
Personally, I still like going to a mall. I just like the experience of going out getting out of the house. It's also a place to hang out with friends or go out on a date. You can't do any of that shopping online. I am not a big fan of shopping online anyways. I have had my identity stolen. I was once sent 2 shirts when I only ordered one I had to pay $9 for the return. I ordered a book that never came. I try avoid shopping online as much as possible.
Not only have I not been in a mall in 7-8 years, I haven't "hung out with friends" in a mall in about 25 years.
Mall trips for us growing up involved a minimum 90 minute drive each way and chewed up an entire day. I hated them with a passion. Stores are soooo boring and hate shopping for just about everything. And the idea of going to a similar store because they might have slightly different stuff at a slightly different price always struck me as completely pointless. As if one's time isn't worth anything? Hello!
At the mall, I'd resort to sitting around in a bookstore thumbing through the latest Rand Mac and see if there were enough changes to justify buying a new one while everyone else traipsed around looking for their stupid hip shoes or CD's or whatever the hell. I never go to a store just to "browse" and maybe stumble upon something. I have something I want/need, I get in, I get it, I get out. None of this dicking around to see if there's anything "good" on the damn clearance rack.
Given the distances involved, I can count on one hand the number of times I was even the company of friends at a mall and even then it was a bore. Instead of twiddling my thumbs while my dad's looking at pants, I'm twiddling my thumbs while my friend is looking at CD's at Sam Goody or whatever the music store was. I will go on a five mile hike through the woods in at the drop of a hat, but make me walk back and forth through a goddamn mall and I'm ready to kill myself.
For me, it was the other way. I grew up in Atwood, KS. Going to the mall was a part of the family's occasional trips to Denver, CO–3½ hours one way, and generally an overnight stay in a hotel. Far from being boring, that trip was the only opportunity to shop for CDs, department store clothes, presents, books, all sorts of things. We'd spend a few hours there.
Heh. Country folk all up in here. Even in Albany, the people from the hinterlands consider the mall a destination. Interesting how you can spot who traveled a while and is cherishing their time there.
A date in a mall...I suppose my wife and I have seen a few movies at the mall recently.
Quote from: Rothman on June 27, 2022, 06:58:44 PM
I haven't had a self-checkout machine tell me to put something in the bagging area for quite some time now -- like multiple years.
I think it's programmed by item (randomly?). At my local Kroger, there are certain items that, when I buy them, always trigger a "put item in bagging area" announcement each time I scan them. Which is a real hoot when I'm buying a dozen of that item.
All of the self-checkouts I've used around here have been NCR models. I suppose it shouldn't be much of a surprise that other vendors don't provide that feedback in the same way, if at all.
I've noticed that NCR self-checkouts with the wireless scanner gun often implicitly assume that the item you're scanning with them is remaining in the cart, and thus do not prompt to weigh them (and the light stays green). If one has only a few items, it's simple to rapid-fire scan everything, pay, then bag.
The Netherlands got what they consider the first American-style megamall just last year, the Westfield Mall of the Netherlands (yes, it's got an English name), near The Hague. It has been absolutely mobbed and has caused a traffic nightmare (https://www.omroepwest.nl/nieuws/4585246/verkeerschaos-bij-de-mall-of-the-netherlands-maar-niet-bij-ikea-hoe-kan-dat), with experts saying they should set up a park and ride facility.
And Westfield says there's a market for 2 more such malls.
(https://www.deondernemer.nl/innovatie/groei/westfield-netherlands-twee-locaties~3408606)
I'd guess the next one should be in Utrecht, especially if the plan to widen the A27 to 14 lanes goes through.
Quote from: kernals12 on June 28, 2022, 11:50:37 PM
The Netherlands got what they consider the first American-style megamall just last year, the Westfield Mall of the Netherlands (yes, it's got an English name), near The Hague. It has been absolutely mobbed and has caused a traffic nightmare (https://www.omroepwest.nl/nieuws/4585246/verkeerschaos-bij-de-mall-of-the-netherlands-maar-niet-bij-ikea-hoe-kan-dat), with experts saying they should set up a park and ride facility.
And Westfield says there's a market for 2 more such malls.
(https://www.deondernemer.nl/innovatie/groei/westfield-netherlands-twee-locaties~3408606)
I'd guess the next one should be in Utrecht, especially if the plan to widen the A27 to 14 lanes goes through.
At last, Europe will deteriorate into American suburban hell. This was our plan since the Marshall Plan to take over...
Quote from: Rothman on June 29, 2022, 07:04:51 AM
Quote from: kernals12 on June 28, 2022, 11:50:37 PM
The Netherlands got what they consider the first American-style megamall just last year, the Westfield Mall of the Netherlands (yes, it's got an English name), near The Hague. It has been absolutely mobbed and has caused a traffic nightmare (https://www.omroepwest.nl/nieuws/4585246/verkeerschaos-bij-de-mall-of-the-netherlands-maar-niet-bij-ikea-hoe-kan-dat), with experts saying they should set up a park and ride facility.
And Westfield says there's a market for 2 more such malls.
(https://www.deondernemer.nl/innovatie/groei/westfield-netherlands-twee-locaties~3408606)
I'd guess the next one should be in Utrecht, especially if the plan to widen the A27 to 14 lanes goes through.
At last, Europe will deteriorate into American suburban hell. This was our plan since the Marshall Plan to take over...
Don't you mean the Marshalls Plan? :bigass:
Well Amazon is a worldwide market. Any mall overseas is also prone for their competition.
I think we can Factor in Amazon as the killer of retail stores.
Quote from: kernals12 on June 29, 2022, 07:54:57 AM
Quote from: Rothman on June 29, 2022, 07:04:51 AM
Quote from: kernals12 on June 28, 2022, 11:50:37 PM
The Netherlands got what they consider the first American-style megamall just last year, the Westfield Mall of the Netherlands (yes, it's got an English name), near The Hague. It has been absolutely mobbed and has caused a traffic nightmare (https://www.omroepwest.nl/nieuws/4585246/verkeerschaos-bij-de-mall-of-the-netherlands-maar-niet-bij-ikea-hoe-kan-dat), with experts saying they should set up a park and ride facility.
And Westfield says there's a market for 2 more such malls.
(https://www.deondernemer.nl/innovatie/groei/westfield-netherlands-twee-locaties~3408606)
I'd guess the next one should be in Utrecht, especially if the plan to widen the A27 to 14 lanes goes through.
At last, Europe will deteriorate into American suburban hell. This was our plan since the Marshall Plan to take over...
Don't you mean the Marshalls Plan? :bigass:
No, the Marshall Field Plan.