Recently, Biden has called for a three-month suspension of the federal gas tax, in hopes of giving families relief as the summer season approaches. However, this would slow down road construction as well, since it is an important source of funding. He proposed for other sources to continue providing funds for road construction to combat this, but how effective will it be?
While it is just for three months it would be interesting to see how much this affects the road network.
Link to article:https://www.cnn.com/2022/06/22/politics/gas-tax-suspension-biden/index.html (https://www.cnn.com/2022/06/22/politics/gas-tax-suspension-biden/index.html)
It's not going to happen. Biden's supporters are already angry about the lack of governmental services the US provides compared to other nations. Dropping a major tax, even temporarily, will make that worse.
Quote from: thspfc on June 23, 2022, 07:49:49 AM
It’s not going to happen. Biden’s supporters are already angry about the lack of governmental services the US provides compared to other nations. Dropping a major tax, even temporarily, will make that worse.
This strikes me as 100% gimmickry, just like the 'bug' lockdowns of a year or two ago were. If you really want fuel tax 'relief', then repeal ALL of the special fuel taxes and put all transport infrastructure spending on the federal and respective state 'feneral fund' budgets.
As for bringing fuel prices back down to more respectable levels, just undo all of the federal executive orders of 2021-01-20 and 2021-01-21.
Mike
Quote from: mgk920 on June 23, 2022, 08:00:31 AM
Quote from: thspfc on June 23, 2022, 07:49:49 AM
It's not going to happen. Biden's supporters are already angry about the lack of governmental services the US provides compared to other nations. Dropping a major tax, even temporarily, will make that worse.
This strikes me as 100% gimmickry, just like the 'bug' lockdowns of a year or two ago were. If you really want fuel tax 'relief', then repeal ALL of the special fuel taxes and put all transport infrastructure spending on the federal and respective state 'feneral fund' budgets.
As for bringing fuel prices back down to more respectable levels, just undo all of the federal executive orders of 2021-01-20 and 2021-01-21.
Mike
Although I can agree that this tax relief is minimal, the ideas the COVID lockdowns were just gimmicks and the executive orders mentioned, if repealed, would have a bigger effect on gas prices are more based upon fantasy than reality.
To answer the question in the title, I'd have to say there won't be an effect. People forget how easily the government borrows...
Yeah comparing a gas tax holiday to Covid lockdowns has me ROFL.
I would guess that a federal gas tax holiday would probably reduce prices about a dime. Big deal.
Quote from: SEWIGuy on June 23, 2022, 09:06:51 AM
Yeah comparing a gas tax holiday to Covid lockdowns has me ROFL.
I would guess that a federal gas tax holiday would probably reduce prices about a dime. Big deal.
The federal gas tax is 18.4¢ per gallon. On a 15-gallon fillup, that's $2.76. I guess there are people out there who fill up multiple times a week, and who don't make a lot of money, for whom that amount could add up. I suspect, however, that for the overwhelming majority of Americans, the amount is too small to be noticeable.
There is also the interesting point about whether a "gas tax holiday" might cause prices to rise if people who think they're "saving money" start driving more as a result of "lower gas prices." I'm not enough of an economist to have a meaningful opinion on that issue, but it's an interesting question.
QuoteThere is also the interesting point about whether a "gas tax holiday" might cause prices to rise if people who think they're "saving money" start driving more as a result of "lower gas prices." I'm not enough of an economist to have a meaningful opinion on that issue, but it's an interesting question.
You're bringing back memories of my undergraduate economics courses, namely Ricardian Equivalence Theorem (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ricardian_equivalence)
To the extent that you can study this stuff, economists generally believe that consumers/taxpayers don't change their consumption patterns for short-term changes.
Perhaps the best example that comes to mind is that in 1992, President George H W Bush instituted a moratorium on income tax withholding, with the idea that consumers would see a bigger net paycheck, and hence spend more, instituting consumer-driven growth. What happened, however, was that that taxpayers were wise enough to know that today's tax holiday would be made up for by tomorrow's increased collections. More recently, I think Trump did it at the tail end of his presidency in a similar effort, with similar results.
Quote from: 1995hoo on June 23, 2022, 09:17:10 AM
Quote from: SEWIGuy on June 23, 2022, 09:06:51 AM
Yeah comparing a gas tax holiday to Covid lockdowns has me ROFL.
I would guess that a federal gas tax holiday would probably reduce prices about a dime. Big deal.
The federal gas tax is 18.4¢ per gallon. On a 15-gallon fillup, that's $2.76. I guess there are people out there who fill up multiple times a week, and who don't make a lot of money, for whom that amount could add up. I suspect, however, that for the overwhelming majority of Americans, the amount is too small to be noticeable.
There is also the interesting point about whether a "gas tax holiday" might cause prices to rise if people who think they're "saving money" start driving more as a result of "lower gas prices." I'm not enough of an economist to have a meaningful opinion on that issue, but it's an interesting question.
I did mean a dime a gallon.
One thing I remember from my undergraduate economic days is that a cut in prices like this will still induce demand enough that prices will not drop the entire 18.4 cents - that both the consumer and the producer (gas company) will split that 18.4 is some way. How much? It depends on the "elasticity of demand" for the product - the more inelastic, the more that will be paid by the consumer.
And, when people have less tax taken out of their paycheck every week, they wonder why their year-end tax refund is smaller. D'oh!
Quote from: kphoger on June 23, 2022, 10:00:48 AM
And, when people have less tax taken out of their paycheck every week, they wonder why their year-end tax refund is smaller. D'oh!
Pretty much. Anyone who gets excited over a tax refund should realize that you were merely giving the government an interest-free loan, and they're paying you back the balance.
The ideal tax refund is zero (and if the early parts of the tax year are seeing red-hot market growth, you can argue that you'd rather under-withhold in the beginning, invest those extra dollars in the market, and then pay your refund after coming out on top, but that's a super specific strategy).
Quote from: 1995hoo on June 23, 2022, 09:17:10 AM
Quote from: SEWIGuy on June 23, 2022, 09:06:51 AM
Yeah comparing a gas tax holiday to Covid lockdowns has me ROFL.
I would guess that a federal gas tax holiday would probably reduce prices about a dime. Big deal.
The federal gas tax is 18.4¢ per gallon. On a 15-gallon fillup, that's $2.76. I guess there are people out there who fill up multiple times a week, and who don't make a lot of money, for whom that amount could add up. I suspect, however, that for the overwhelming majority of Americans, the amount is too small to be noticeable.
There is also the interesting point about whether a "gas tax holiday" might cause prices to rise if people who think they're "saving money" start driving more as a result of "lower gas prices." I'm not enough of an economist to have a meaningful opinion on that issue, but it's an interesting question.
Seems to me that’d be the case especially in places like here, where an 18 cent drop in prices would make the price of a gallon of regular start with a 4. $5 gas is a major psychological barrier, and I have to think seeing that go away would almost certainly get more people out on the road to “take advantage” given the recent short-term rapid increases.
I agree that it is entirely a political gimmick and there’s almost nothing good about the idea. Even if prices don’t rise due to artificially inflated demand, the average American gets around 25 mpg and drives 1200 miles in a month (that’s 48 gallons of gas). Getting rid of the 18.4¢ federal gas tax would save the average American a whopping $8.83 a month - almost nothing compared to rent or food or other typical expenses. Plus the government loses out on tax revenue. Fortunately, it looks like there is bipartisan opposition in Congress.
Not sure where Congress stands on this issue, but the proposal will require 60 votes in the Senate and a simple majority in the House.
Personally, I don't really think that this administration is at all interested in providing any relief to consumers. Kentucky's governor Andy Beshear, a Democrat who presumably supports Biden, requested the federal government to drop the requirement that more expensive reformulated gas be sold in Louisville and surrounding areas. The feds refused the request.
If the current administration in power was really serious, they'd suspend or rescind all regulations that push the cost of fuel upwards. Eliminating the RFG requirement would have been a simple step, but the administration refused to do even that at the request of an ally. That tells me that those in power actually want these high prices.
Quote from: SEWIGuy on June 23, 2022, 09:06:51 AM
Yeah comparing a gas tax holiday to Covid lockdowns has me ROFL.
I would guess that a federal gas tax holiday would probably reduce prices about a dime. Big deal.
Both are bad policies, but that's where the comparison ends.
If the tax holiday was to happen, it likely wouldn't be much of a factor in slowing down construction in the short term. The Feds are printing a lot of money and sending it to the states from the "bipartisan infrastructure" bill passed earlier this year. Most of that cash hasn't even been delivered or spent yet. All the tax holiday will do is increase the borrowing and add to the current inflation problem. Now, the inflation has already caused a spike in material costs which means each dollar gets you fewer lane miles built. So long-term the inflation will slow down construction due to costs which the tax holiday will marginally make worse.
Quote from: AlexandriaVA on June 23, 2022, 10:06:45 AM
Quote from: kphoger on June 23, 2022, 10:00:48 AM
And, when people have less tax taken out of their paycheck every week, they wonder why their year-end tax refund is smaller. D'oh!
Pretty much. Anyone who gets excited over a tax refund should realize that you were merely giving the government an interest-free loan, and they're paying you back the balance.
The ideal tax refund is zero (and if the early parts of the tax year are seeing red-hot market growth, you can argue that you'd rather under-withhold in the beginning, invest those extra dollars in the market, and then pay your refund after coming out on top, but that's a super specific strategy).
Eh. I know I am giving the government an interest free loan, but I still like getting a tax refund.
Quote from: US 89 on June 23, 2022, 10:09:02 AMFortunately, it looks like there is bipartisan opposition in Congress.
I suspect this is the true reason for the bipartisanship...
https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/democrat-joe-manchin-signals-support-bidens-call-gas/story?id=85558791 (https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/democrat-joe-manchin-signals-support-bidens-call-gas/story?id=85558791)
QuoteBiden is expected to call on Congress to suspend the federal gas tax, which amounts to roughly 18 cents of gasoline and 24 cents per gallon of diesel through the end of September. Manchin, who chairs the Senate Energy and Natural Resources Committee took issue with the timing ahead of the fall midterm elections.
"My other would be the political ramification. It goes off at the end of September. Which politician up here is going to be voting to put that 18-cent tax back on a month before the November election? So, we just dig the whole deeper and deeper and deeper," Manchin said.
Quote from: AlexandriaVA on June 23, 2022, 09:28:53 AMMore recently, I think Trump did it at the tail end of his presidency in a similar effort, with similar results.
It didn't even get that far, since many companies knew it was an advance and not a gift and just didn't adjust employees' withholdings. As I recall, not even every federal employee who would have been eligible for it, received it (it only applied to people making less than a certain amount per year).
Quote from: SEWIGuy on June 23, 2022, 09:58:29 AM
Quote from: 1995hoo on June 23, 2022, 09:17:10 AM
Quote from: SEWIGuy on June 23, 2022, 09:06:51 AM
Yeah comparing a gas tax holiday to Covid lockdowns has me ROFL.
I would guess that a federal gas tax holiday would probably reduce prices about a dime. Big deal.
The federal gas tax is 18.4¢ per gallon. On a 15-gallon fillup, that's $2.76. I guess there are people out there who fill up multiple times a week, and who don't make a lot of money, for whom that amount could add up. I suspect, however, that for the overwhelming majority of Americans, the amount is too small to be noticeable.
There is also the interesting point about whether a "gas tax holiday" might cause prices to rise if people who think they're "saving money" start driving more as a result of "lower gas prices." I'm not enough of an economist to have a meaningful opinion on that issue, but it's an interesting question.
I did mean a dime a gallon.
One thing I remember from my undergraduate economic days is that a cut in prices like this will still induce demand enough that prices will not drop the entire 18.4 cents - that both the consumer and the producer (gas company) will split that 18.4 is some way. How much? It depends on the "elasticity of demand" for the product - the more inelastic, the more that will be paid by the consumer.
I didn't mean to disagree with you on how many cents of price "relief" customers might actually see. I was just noting what the total amount would be if in fact the price dropped to reflect the full federal gas tax amount, which of course is impossible as a practical matter because there's no realistic way for the price to have an exact reflection of the 0.4¢ portion.
Quote from: abefroman329 on June 23, 2022, 10:27:16 AM
Quote from: AlexandriaVA on June 23, 2022, 09:28:53 AMMore recently, I think Trump did it at the tail end of his presidency in a similar effort, with similar results.
It didn't even get that far, since many companies knew it was an advance and not a gift and just didn't adjust employees' withholdings. As I recall, not even every federal employee who would have been eligible for it, received it (it only applied to people making less than a certain amount per year).
Some parts of the government refused to implement it at all. His order applied only to the Executive Branch–I believe I read he lacked the legal authority to order the other two branches to do it.
Quote from: 1995hoo on June 23, 2022, 10:32:51 AMSome parts of the government refused to implement it at all. His order applied only to the Executive Branch–I believe I read he lacked the legal authority to order the other two branches to do it.
Yeah, that's what I meant - I don't really think of Congressional staffers as "federal employees," and...jeez, I don't even know how the federal courts work in terms of being funded, or who reports to who.
Quote from: 1995hoo on June 23, 2022, 10:32:51 AM
I didn't mean to disagree with you on how many cents of price "relief" customers might actually see. I was just noting what the total amount would be if in fact the price dropped to reflect the full federal gas tax amount, which of course is impossible as a practical matter because there's no realistic way for the price to have an exact reflection of the 0.4¢ portion.
They could. After all, we've been paying 0.9¢ per gallon for decades. It just shows up as extra pennies from the 2nd gallon onward.
Quote from: FrCorySticha on June 23, 2022, 01:14:24 PM
They could. After all, we've been paying 0.9¢ per gallon for decades. It just shows up as extra pennies from the 2nd gallon onward.
A lot of gas station signs have the .009 part as a permanent fixture: that is, it's impossible to display a price of $4.275.
Quote from: SEWIGuy on June 23, 2022, 10:25:44 AMQuote from: AlexandriaVA on June 23, 2022, 10:06:45 AMQuote from: kphoger on June 23, 2022, 10:00:48 AMAnd, when people have less tax taken out of their paycheck every week, they wonder why their year-end tax refund is smaller. D'oh!
Pretty much. Anyone who gets excited over a tax refund should realize that you were merely giving the government an interest-free loan, and they're paying you back the balance.
The ideal tax refund is zero (and if the early parts of the tax year are seeing red-hot market growth, you can argue that you'd rather under-withhold in the beginning, invest those extra dollars in the market, and then pay your refund after coming out on top, but that's a super specific strategy).
Eh. I know I am giving the government an interest free loan, but I still like getting a tax refund.
I have heard of people who try to adjust their withholding so that their federal tax refund is just barely enough to pay their state taxes.
I have also heard of married couples with unbalanced money-management skills where one spouse pushes for overly high withholding essentially to force saving. An example might be a husband feeling he has to spend whatever money he has in the bank, but also being willing (for quiet at home if no other reason) to go along with the wife's plan to dedicate the tax refund check to a durable household improvement like replacing the garage door, repairing basement leaks, etc.
As for the gas tax holiday, I don't expect it to do much, for good or ill, if it passes. It's been a while since I looked at OHPI, but in at least a few recent years before covid we spent more on highways than came in through user fees like the gas tax. As it's a short-term intervention, I'd expect construction activity to continue as usual, just with a transiently higher level of subsidy.
Quote from: kphoger on June 23, 2022, 01:38:32 PM
A lot of gas station signs have the .009 part as a permanent fixture: that is, it's impossible to display a price of $4.275.
True, but what matters more is the pumps, and most of them can be updated to support 0.5¢.
Quote from: SEWIGuy on June 23, 2022, 10:25:44 AM
Quote from: AlexandriaVA on June 23, 2022, 10:06:45 AM
Quote from: kphoger on June 23, 2022, 10:00:48 AM
And, when people have less tax taken out of their paycheck every week, they wonder why their year-end tax refund is smaller. D'oh!
Pretty much. Anyone who gets excited over a tax refund should realize that you were merely giving the government an interest-free loan, and they're paying you back the balance.
The ideal tax refund is zero (and if the early parts of the tax year are seeing red-hot market growth, you can argue that you'd rather under-withhold in the beginning, invest those extra dollars in the market, and then pay your refund after coming out on top, but that's a super specific strategy).
Eh. I know I am giving the government an interest free loan, but I still like getting a tax refund.
The argument tends to imply that that there are only two things you can do with this money, have it withheld or invested. But if the refund would be $1,000, a lot of people would just spend that extra $19 a week on other things. And so getting that money back all at once is a significant, if somewhat contrived, windfall.
Quote from: FrCorySticha on June 23, 2022, 01:46:02 PM
Quote from: kphoger on June 23, 2022, 01:38:32 PM
A lot of gas station signs have the .009 part as a permanent fixture: that is, it's impossible to display a price of $4.275.
True, but what matters more is the pumps, and most of them can be updated to support 0.5¢.
Is it legal to advertise a price that isn't actually available?
Quote from: J N Winkler on June 23, 2022, 01:41:29 PM
As for the gas tax holiday, I don't expect it to do much, for good or ill, if it passes. It's been a while since I looked at OHPI, but in at least a few recent years before covid we spent more on highways than came in through user fees like the gas tax. As it's a short-term intervention, I'd expect construction activity to continue as usual, just with a transiently higher level of subsidy.
I don't think it'll do much either, mostly since as the price of gas increases, the federal gas tax represents a smaller and smaller proportion of the total amount, as seen in the following chart:
1.009 18.2%
1.509 12.3%
2.009 9.2%
2.509 7.4%
3.009 6.1%
3.509 5.3%
4.009 4.6%
4.509 4.1%
5.009 3.7%
5.509 3.3%
6.009 3.1%
We're in 3-4% territory now, which isn't going to affect people's choices all that much. Well, it won't affect them at the pump, it might affect them at the ballot box.
Quote from: CtrlAltDel on June 23, 2022, 01:50:59 PM
Quote from: FrCorySticha on June 23, 2022, 01:46:02 PM
Quote from: kphoger on June 23, 2022, 01:38:32 PM
A lot of gas station signs have the .009 part as a permanent fixture: that is, it's impossible to display a price of $4.275.
True, but what matters more is the pumps, and most of them can be updated to support 0.5¢.
Is it legal to advertise a price that isn't actually available?
I've only had the price not match on two occasions.
The first is a situation I've already described in another thread, wherein someone had entered the pump price with the decimal point shifted by two places and it was pumping for four cents per gallon instead of four dollars, or whatever. Obviously not the same type of situation.
The second was at
the old Boondocks truck stop (https://goo.gl/maps/P64NkLK3rNEEZrET7) on I-35 in Iowa. The pump price was more than the sign price by like ten or twenty cents. When I mentioned that to the lady behind the fuel counter as I was paying, she just said that apparently someone had updated the pumps but not the sign to reflect that day's price.
What's stopping the oil companies from simply pocketing the difference? I say it's a fat chance the price at the pump drops 18 cents per gallon if implemented. There will be just some hand-waving about oil prices and the companies will keep gas the same price and stuff the rest under their corporate mattress. A gas tax holiday is essentially a hand out to oil companies. Screw that noise.
And yes, on top of that, it's a revenue hit to fix our shitty roads.
It's a gamble. People might buy more gas if they drop the price at the pump. But how much more gas? based on how much of a price drop?
Quote from: triplemultiplex on June 23, 2022, 02:22:47 PM
What's stopping the oil companies from simply pocketing the difference? ....
This is one of the reasons the Virginia General Assembly rejected Gov. Youngkin's proposal for a three-month state gas tax holiday. The general argument you hear is that it probably becomes a function of competition–if some gas stations lower the price to reflect the tax not being charged, others would most likely follow suit to avoid losing business.
Quote from: 1995hoo on June 23, 2022, 09:17:10 AM
Quote from: SEWIGuy on June 23, 2022, 09:06:51 AM
Yeah comparing a gas tax holiday to Covid lockdowns has me ROFL.
I would guess that a federal gas tax holiday would probably reduce prices about a dime. Big deal.
The federal gas tax is 18.4¢ per gallon. On a 15-gallon fillup, that's $2.76. I guess there are people out there who fill up multiple times a week, and who don't make a lot of money, for whom that amount could add up. I suspect, however, that for the overwhelming majority of Americans, the amount is too small to be noticeable.
There is also the interesting point about whether a "gas tax holiday" might cause prices to rise if people who think they're "saving money" start driving more as a result of "lower gas prices." I'm not enough of an economist to have a meaningful opinion on that issue, but it's an interesting question.
Don't expect much, if any of that 18.4 cents to get passed on from the retailer to the consumer. This has no effect on the oil companies or the refiners. Retailers historically make about $.15/gallon, and with prices constantly rising, I seriously doubt they're pulling in anywhere near that. The retailers are responsible for paying this tax and are the ones who will benefit. Furthermore, they may receive 20-40,000 gallons per week, which they have to pay for upfront. So we're talking anywhere from $100-$200,000 a week to fill their tanks. With the wholesale price constantly rising and a great deal of uncertainty about how high prices will go, most retailers probably can't chance running short on cash and not having enough to pay for fuel deliveries.
Quote from: triplemultiplex on June 23, 2022, 02:22:47 PM
What's stopping the oil companies from simply pocketing the difference? I say it's a fat chance the price at the pump drops 18 cents per gallon if implemented. There will be just some hand-waving about oil prices and the companies will keep gas the same price and stuff the rest under their corporate mattress. A gas tax holiday is essentially a hand out to oil companies. Screw that noise.
And yes, on top of that, it's a revenue hit to fix our shitty roads.
Quote from: triplemultiplex on June 23, 2022, 02:22:47 PM
What's stopping the oil companies from simply pocketing the difference? I say it's a fat chance the price at the pump drops 18 cents per gallon if implemented. There will be just some hand-waving about oil prices and the companies will keep gas the same price and stuff the rest under their corporate mattress. A gas tax holiday is essentially a hand out to oil companies. Screw that noise.
And yes, on top of that, it's a revenue hit to fix our shitty roads.
This has nothing to do with the oil companies or the refiners. The tax is imposed on the retailers. They're the ones who will benefit from this, but they typically only make about $.15/gallon. I wouldn't expect them to pass on much, if any, of this tax holiday. With wholesale prices constantly rising, they're probably making far less than $.15/gallon right now. And considering that they may typically require 20-40,000 gallons/week costing them $100-&200,000/week, they'll probably be reluctant to pass on any savings, not knowing how much of a cash outlay they may need weeks or months down the road.
The retailers, not the oil companies, would be the ones who would pocket the difference if the federal tax was suspended but the stations didn't lower their prices as a result.
Kentucky's governor announced a ridiculous gimmick a few weeks ago and got roundly, and rightly, roasted for it. Kentucky's sliding-scale gas tax was set to go up 2 cents on July 1. A few years ago, the legislature tinkered with the tax, which is tied to prices, by setting a floor in case demand or prices drop, and a sliding scale to capture more revenue if prices skyrocket and consumption drops as a result. The governor announced that he was going to suspend the scheduled two-cent increase. His legal authority to do was questioned, since the legislature is the body that set the tax rate and the legislature should be the entity empowered to change it. Also, saving customers a planned two penny increase per gallon is laughable.
Most gas station displays now are digital, which means the little superscript "9" can be changed to any other number. In fact, several years ago, I saw a station outside Grayson, Ky., that had a price that didn't end in "9." It was early in the morning, though, before dawn, so I didn't get a picture of it.
Quote from: kphoger on June 23, 2022, 02:17:04 PM
The second was at the old Boondocks truck stop (https://goo.gl/maps/P64NkLK3rNEEZrET7) on I-35 in Iowa. The pump price was more than the sign price by like ten or twenty cents. When I mentioned that to the lady behind the fuel counter as I was paying, she just said that apparently someone had updated the pumps but not the sign to reflect that day's price.
I've found this happens often in Nebraska. Not only is there often a large variation in gas prices between stations at the same exit, but many stations lure people in with a low price on the sign where there are no pumps (or maybe just one pump) that actually have that price.
Quote from: hbelkins on June 24, 2022, 09:32:19 AM
Most gas station displays now are digital, which means the little superscript "9" can be changed to any other number. In fact, several years ago, I saw a station outside Grayson, Ky., that had a price that didn't end in "9." It was early in the morning, though, before dawn, so I didn't get a picture of it.
Slightly off-topic, but in Canada where gas is priced per liter instead of per gallon, often they use different thousandths digits than nine. Examples here (https://www.google.com/maps/@46.2856598,-81.7747051,3a,15y,316h,91.76t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sKDE_xASLz25H4BFSiiJvZQ!2e0!7i16384!8i8192) and here (https://www.google.com/maps/@46.4722608,-81.0292023,3a,75y,29.4h,91.98t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s3adfWAsdA-6bkSj2DfCRhw!2e0!7i16384!8i8192). Of course they use 9s as well (https://www.google.com/maps/@46.2133433,-82.0719804,3a,75y,104.9h,90.59t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sKgAjltrNdsYs-18dQlGwGQ!2e0!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fpanoid%3DKgAjltrNdsYs-18dQlGwGQ%26cb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile.gps%26w%3D203%26h%3D100%26yaw%3D141.48264%26pitch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100!7i16384!8i8192), but not always as a rule.
Quote from: hbelkins on June 24, 2022, 09:32:19 AM
Most gas station displays now are digital, which means the little superscript "9" can be changed to any other number. In fact, several years ago, I saw a station outside Grayson, Ky., that had a price that didn't end in "9." It was early in the morning, though, before dawn, so I didn't get a picture of it.
The sign being digital doesn't mean the digit can be changed. Some examples:
Take a close look at
this digital sign (https://goo.gl/maps/XnCdCa3bjn5x534u9), and you can see that the manufacturer didn't even bother including any digit segments other than those used in the number
9.
Take a close look at
this digital sign (https://goo.gl/maps/B8q5FM6xuBWgxWKFA), and you can see that even a grade that's completely unavailable (Diesel) still has the
9/
10 illuminated.
(https://frinkiac.com/img/S08E22/1113027.jpg)
I don't have a picture of it, but I remember when I was a kid, there was one gas station in Fairfax City that had a price sign showing 0.7¢ at the end. I don't recall the brand of gas nor much else about it other than that I believe I recall it being at the corner of North Street and University Drive. Maybe cpzilliacus might recall something at that location.
Another instance of digital signs with only 9/10: https://www.google.com/maps/@40.561364,-74.579485,3a,15y,163.11h,94.85t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1srrzQlZ3azxQMFW9gY3dy7A!2e0!7i16384!8i8192?hl=en (https://www.google.com/maps/@40.561364,-74.579485,3a,15y,163.11h,94.85t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1srrzQlZ3azxQMFW9gY3dy7A!2e0!7i16384!8i8192?hl=en)
Here, the sign appears to be partially broken so one can see that only the 9/10 have actual digits.
Quote from: tsmatt13 on June 24, 2022, 05:15:49 PM
Another instance of digital signs with only 9/10: https://www.google.com/maps/@40.561364,-74.579485,3a,15y,163.11h,94.85t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1srrzQlZ3azxQMFW9gY3dy7A!2e0!7i16384!8i8192?hl=en (https://www.google.com/maps/@40.561364,-74.579485,3a,15y,163.11h,94.85t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1srrzQlZ3azxQMFW9gY3dy7A!2e0!7i16384!8i8192?hl=en)
Here, the sign appears to be partially broken so one can see that only the 9/10 have actual digits.
Off topic, but who makes a gas price sign with regular in green and diesel in red? That's gotta be confusing.
Quote from: US 89 on June 24, 2022, 05:17:27 PM
Quote from: tsmatt13 on June 24, 2022, 05:15:49 PM
Another instance of digital signs with only 9/10: https://www.google.com/maps/@40.561364,-74.579485,3a,15y,163.11h,94.85t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1srrzQlZ3azxQMFW9gY3dy7A!2e0!7i16384!8i8192?hl=en (https://www.google.com/maps/@40.561364,-74.579485,3a,15y,163.11h,94.85t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1srrzQlZ3azxQMFW9gY3dy7A!2e0!7i16384!8i8192?hl=en)
Here, the sign appears to be partially broken so one can see that only the 9/10 have actual digits.
Off topic, but who makes a gas price sign with regular in green and diesel in red? That's gotta be confusing.
I've seen it the other way around. And if you are colorblind?
Quote from: US 89 on June 24, 2022, 05:17:27 PM
Off topic, but who makes a gas price sign with regular in green and diesel in red? That's gotta be confusing.
I think only Delta Gas seems to do this. Most of their signs have the traditional colors, but this station in Branchburg has their colors swapped too. Both of these stations opened in 2020, so I'm guessing Delta's newer stations have the colors swapped:
https://www.google.com/maps/@40.568732,-74.6302493,3a,15y,217.85h,91.14t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sS1DplulUSpCAn5fluof7gw!2e0!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fpanoid%3DS1DplulUSpCAn5fluof7gw%26cb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile.gps%26w%3D203%26h%3D100%26yaw%3D310.12442%26pitch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100!7i16384!8i8192?hl=en (https://www.google.com/maps/@40.568732,-74.6302493,3a,15y,217.85h,91.14t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sS1DplulUSpCAn5fluof7gw!2e0!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fpanoid%3DS1DplulUSpCAn5fluof7gw%26cb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile.gps%26w%3D203%26h%3D100%26yaw%3D310.12442%26pitch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100!7i16384!8i8192?hl=en)
Quote from: tsmatt13 on June 24, 2022, 05:15:49 PM
Here, the sign appears to be partially broken so one can see that only the 9/10 have actual digits.
No, it's just the way signs like that show up in GSV photos.
Here's the same sign on the same day: https://goo.gl/maps/N9LHFdiKxHA5p3kv8
Quote from: US 89 on June 24, 2022, 05:17:27 PM
Off topic, but who makes a gas price sign with regular in green and diesel in red? That's gotta be confusing.
In Mexico, the usual colors are green for regular, red for premium, and black for Diesel. Pump handles match the sign in color, although it's all full service anyway.
Example: https://goo.gl/maps/VMU668JpZKzqAniv8
Quote from: US 89 on June 24, 2022, 05:17:27 PM
Quote from: tsmatt13 on June 24, 2022, 05:15:49 PM
Another instance of digital signs with only 9/10: https://www.google.com/maps/@40.561364,-74.579485,3a,15y,163.11h,94.85t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1srrzQlZ3azxQMFW9gY3dy7A!2e0!7i16384!8i8192?hl=en (https://www.google.com/maps/@40.561364,-74.579485,3a,15y,163.11h,94.85t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1srrzQlZ3azxQMFW9gY3dy7A!2e0!7i16384!8i8192?hl=en)
Here, the sign appears to be partially broken so one can see that only the 9/10 have actual digits.
Off topic, but who makes a gas price sign with regular in green and diesel in red? That's gotta be confusing.
Similarly, I hate how BP's pump handles are always green.
Quote from: kphoger on June 24, 2022, 06:15:41 PM
Quote from: tsmatt13 on June 24, 2022, 05:15:49 PM
Here, the sign appears to be partially broken so one can see that only the 9/10 have actual digits.
No, it's just the way signs like that show up in GSV photos.
Here's the same sign on the same day: https://goo.gl/maps/N9LHFdiKxHA5p3kv8
Strangely, if you go to your street view link and move forward a little, the sign turns black. Maybe the street view camera coincidentally caught the sign breaking?
Quote from: tsmatt13 on June 24, 2022, 08:11:06 PM
Quote from: kphoger on June 24, 2022, 06:15:41 PM
Quote from: tsmatt13 on June 24, 2022, 05:15:49 PM
Here, the sign appears to be partially broken so one can see that only the 9/10 have actual digits.
No, it's just the way signs like that show up in GSV photos.
Here's the same sign on the same day: https://goo.gl/maps/N9LHFdiKxHA5p3kv8
Strangely, if you go to your street view link and move forward a little, the sign turns black. Maybe the street view camera coincidentally caught the sign breaking?
No, the sign isn't broken. There is nothing wrong with the sign.
AC-powered LEDs turn on and off very rapidly as the current alternates. This flickering is too fast for the human eye to detect. However, if a camera happens to fire at the precise moment that the LEDs are not getting power, the LED will look "broken". But it's not. This behavior can be observed on any LED hooked directly to AC power (if it goes through one of those box thingies on the power cord, it will be behave normally, because that box converts it to DC power).
Quote from: Scott5114 on June 24, 2022, 08:30:37 PM
No, the sign isn't broken. There is nothing wrong with the sign.
AC-powered LEDs turn on and off very rapidly as the current alternates. This flickering is too fast for the human eye to detect. However, if a camera happens to fire at the precise moment that the LEDs are not getting power, the LED will look "broken". But it's not. This behavior can be observed on any LED hooked directly to AC power (if it goes through one of those box thingies on the power cord, it will be behave normally, because that box converts it to DC power).
That is interesting! I checked, and most other digital gas station signs are like this as well.
Quote from: Scott5114 on June 24, 2022, 08:30:37 PM
Quote from: tsmatt13 on June 24, 2022, 08:11:06 PM
Quote from: kphoger on June 24, 2022, 06:15:41 PM
Quote from: tsmatt13 on June 24, 2022, 05:15:49 PM
Here, the sign appears to be partially broken so one can see that only the 9/10 have actual digits.
No, it's just the way signs like that show up in GSV photos.
Here's the same sign on the same day: https://goo.gl/maps/N9LHFdiKxHA5p3kv8
Strangely, if you go to your street view link and move forward a little, the sign turns black. Maybe the street view camera coincidentally caught the sign breaking?
No, the sign isn't broken. There is nothing wrong with the sign.
AC-powered LEDs turn on and off very rapidly as the current alternates. This flickering is too fast for the human eye to detect. However, if a camera happens to fire at the precise moment that the LEDs are not getting power, the LED will look "broken". But it's not. This behavior can be observed on any LED hooked directly to AC power (if it goes through one of those box thingies on the power cord, it will be behave normally, because that box converts it to DC power).
This is because LEDs only work if current is flowing in a particular direction, right? Trying to dig up my basic circuits knowledge here...
And yeah, I've observed this many a time, though usually it's me trying to take a photo of a VMS over a freeway.
Quote from: tsmatt13 on June 24, 2022, 05:15:49 PM
Here, the sign appears to be partially broken so one can see that only the 9/10 have actual digits.
Quote from: kphoger on June 24, 2022, 06:15:41 PM
No, it's just the way signs like that show up in GSV photos.
Here's the same sign on the same day: https://goo.gl/maps/N9LHFdiKxHA5p3kv8
Quote from: tsmatt13 on June 24, 2022, 08:11:06 PM
Strangely, if you go to your street view link and move forward a little, the sign turns black. Maybe the street view camera coincidentally caught the sign breaking?
Quote from: Scott5114 on June 24, 2022, 08:30:37 PM
No, the sign isn't broken. There is nothing wrong with the sign.
AC-powered LEDs turn on and off very rapidly as the current alternates. This flickering is too fast for the human eye to detect. However, if a camera happens to fire at the precise moment that the LEDs are not getting power, the LED will look "broken". But it's not. This behavior can be observed on any LED hooked directly to AC power (if it goes through one of those box thingies on the power cord, it will be behave normally, because that box converts it to DC power).
Quote from: US 89 on June 25, 2022, 02:35:37 PM
This is because LEDs only work if current is flowing in a particular direction, right? Trying to dig up my basic circuits knowledge here...
And yeah, I've observed this many a time, though usually it's me trying to take a photo of a VMS over a freeway.
There's an art form to getting camera shutters to avoid capturing the LED flash phenomenon. Anyhow, the LED control circuit is likely not a simple 60 Hz phased input, in which the flash is visible to some people. There are several options for control circuitry, but the simplest is the bridge-rectifier solution using small diodes. That solution doubles the flash rate to 120 Hz and also minimizes the duration of the flash. But if even one of the diodes goes bad (about the same failure rate as an light-emitting diode), you'll see a bunch of longer flashes through a camera lens. I've done a bunch of circuit analyses on ring-rectifier designs, but never looked a the voltage-crossover spikes in the output. Should be an interesting circuit review.
Quote from: US 89 on June 25, 2022, 02:35:37 PM
This is because LEDs only work if current is flowing in a particular direction, right? Trying to dig up my basic circuits knowledge here...
That
sounds right, but honestly electrical engineering stuff is one of those things that just barely escapes my mind no matter how hard I try to internalize it. I still get volts and amps mixed up.....
Quote from: Scott5114 on June 24, 2022, 08:30:37 PM
Quote from: tsmatt13 on June 24, 2022, 08:11:06 PM
Quote from: kphoger on June 24, 2022, 06:15:41 PM
Quote from: tsmatt13 on June 24, 2022, 05:15:49 PM
Here, the sign appears to be partially broken so one can see that only the 9/10 have actual digits.
No, it's just the way signs like that show up in GSV photos.
Here's the same sign on the same day: https://goo.gl/maps/N9LHFdiKxHA5p3kv8
Strangely, if you go to your street view link and move forward a little, the sign turns black. Maybe the street view camera coincidentally caught the sign breaking?
No, the sign isn't broken. There is nothing wrong with the sign.
AC-powered LEDs turn on and off very rapidly as the current alternates. This flickering is too fast for the human eye to detect. However, if a camera happens to fire at the precise moment that the LEDs are not getting power, the LED will look "broken". But it's not. This behavior can be observed on any LED hooked directly to AC power (if it goes through one of those box thingies on the power cord, it will be behave normally, because that box converts it to DC power).
I've noticed this photographing scoreboards. Sometimes it shows up with all the lights off. I figured it was because there was some flashing. A 1/500 of a second exposure time might capture it while the lights are out. I think if I turn up exposure time to something like 1/50 it would catch the lights being on, but with other adjustments compensating for the long exposure, the lights might appear faint. Sometimes the lights appear in the photo as on but dim, probably because they were on for only a fraction of the exposure time. I've never tried to find the settings that will capture the lights well, but I need to do that, in case I want to record an important score.
Quote from: US 89 on June 25, 2022, 02:35:37 PM
This is because LEDs only work if current is flowing in a particular direction, right? Trying to dig up my basic circuits knowledge here...
Actually, it's the other way around. Diodes are designed to block the flow of electricity in [only] one direction. But indeed, LEDs only light up when the polarity on the input side of the diode is positive.