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National Boards => General Highway Talk => Topic started by: CapeCodder on July 09, 2022, 03:27:41 PM

Title: Why don't most states number exits on non-interstate expressways?
Post by: CapeCodder on July 09, 2022, 03:27:41 PM
I know MO doesn't, at least 10 years ago.
Title: Re: Why don't most states number exits on non-interstate expressways?
Post by: wanderer2575 on July 09, 2022, 04:12:35 PM
Michigan originally didn't, either.  Exit numbering started when signs were being replaced after Clearview took over.
Title: Re: Why don't most states number exits on non-interstate expressways?
Post by: US 89 on July 09, 2022, 04:25:59 PM
Utah numbers the exits on all of its freeways, including non-interstates. There are a few one-off exits on otherwise nonfreeway roads that don't have a signed number, but they are all assigned an internal number.

If I recall correctly, current MUTCD guidance is to include mile-based exit numbers on all freeways, but this is obviously slow to be adopted.
Title: Re: Why don't most states number exits on non-interstate expressways?
Post by: ethanhopkin14 on July 09, 2022, 04:26:19 PM
I don't know.

Growing up, that was the big difference between being on an interstate and a non-interstate freeway in Texas; the exit numbers and mile markers.  It was the steadfast difference, until I saw Central Expressway and my mind was blown.  A US highway with exit numbers?  Of course it is a weird situation being half mile based and half sequential (at the time I first saw it, it was all sequential because it was pre inside I-635 rebuild).  As I grew older, I saw some more non interstates with exit numbers, two in El Paso (Loop 375 and US-54), TX-130, US-82 and US-59 (non I-69).  The last two being random and intermingled with exits with no exit number in the middle of ones with exit numbers.  Basically, I can't figure Texas' non-interstate exit numbering theme, since all but US-75 have reference marker based exit numbers.  Since all non-interstate highways in Texas have reference markers, why don't all non-interstate freeways in Texas have exit numbers???
Title: Re: Why don't most states number exits on non-interstate expressways?
Post by: ozarkman417 on July 09, 2022, 04:44:13 PM
Quote from: CapeCodder on July 09, 2022, 03:27:41 PM
I know MO doesn't, at least 10 years ago.
Generally MO doesn't, but there are exceptions, such as MO-370 and MO-364. Those are fully-fledged freeways named after one of the interstates they terminate at.
Contrary to those examples, you have segments of state and US routes like US 54, 60, and 65 in the southern part of the state that have some lengthy freeway segments, but their exits are not numbered.
Title: Re: Why don't most states number exits on non-interstate expressways?
Post by: TheStranger on July 09, 2022, 05:07:18 PM
Before California went all-out with exit numbering with the 2001-present CalNEXUS project...

The 1971 exit numbering experiment in Los Angeles included several non-interstate freeways:

Route 11 (now I-110 and Route 110) from downtown towards Dodger Stadium
US 101 along the Santa Ana Freeway (between I-5 and the Four-Level)

I-5 near the East Los Angeles Interchange and portions of I-10 also got the test signage around that time.  Some of the 1971 signage (which was all center-justified external tab) was still up about 3-4 years ago but may have been replaced with newer, mostly internal-tab setups since.

Since 2001, California has basically tried to put numbered exits on ANY freeway, whether Interstate, state, or US route.  Route 33 from Ventura north is one of the very few exceptions.
Title: Re: Why don't most states number exits on non-interstate expressways?
Post by: RobbieL2415 on July 09, 2022, 05:24:13 PM
CT has been numbering exits on non-interstate freeways since at least the 1930s.
Title: Re: Why don't most states number exits on non-interstate expressways?
Post by: ztonyg on July 09, 2022, 05:33:09 PM
Arizona generally numbers all exits even on non-freeways.

The one exception being the AZ 71 / US 93 interchange.
Title: Re: Why don't most states number exits on non-interstate expressways?
Post by: cwf1701 on July 09, 2022, 07:43:17 PM
Quote from: wanderer2575 on July 09, 2022, 04:12:35 PM
Michigan originally didn't, either.  Exit numbering started when signs were being replaced after Clearview took over.
I remember US-23 between I-94 and the Ohio line having exit numbers in the late 1980s/early 90s. And i think M-14 also had them on its freeway section between I-94 and I-275 in that same time period.
Title: Re: Why don't most states number exits on non-interstate expressways?
Post by: jp the roadgeek on July 09, 2022, 09:35:11 PM
Quote from: RobbieL2415 on July 09, 2022, 05:24:13 PM
CT has been numbering exits on non-interstate freeways since at least the 1930s.

CT 72 didn't get exit numbers until the 90's.  And the Bradley Connector (CT 20) doesn't have any.
Title: Re: Why don't most states number exits on non-interstate expressways?
Post by: SkyPesos on July 09, 2022, 10:01:30 PM
Ohio used to not number exits on non-interstate freeways, until sometime in the past decade when they've been adding exit numbers to them. They even added exit numbers to some signalized turns on expressways for some reason, like the I-75 onramp at US 6 (https://goo.gl/maps/1fnHcr4jWXcRUEFC9) and I-270 onramp at US 23 (https://goo.gl/maps/CKkm5CQyYYRnCLg18).
Title: Re: Why don't most states number exits on non-interstate expressways?
Post by: wriddle082 on July 09, 2022, 10:06:33 PM
I think if TN didn't reset state highway mile markers at county lines, they would have exit numbers on all non-interstate freeways.  As it stands now, some have them but most don't.

Non-interstates with numbered exits include:
The infamous Sam Cooper Blvd. (which still features old I-40 exit numbers)
TN 386 Vietnam Veterans Blvd. (a rare case of exit numbers and mile markers not resetting at the Davidson/Sumner Co. line)
TN 155 Briley Pkwy.
TN 153 in Chattanooga
US 25E in the Morristown area

As far as I can tell, all other non-interstate freeways in TN have unnumbered exits, including TN 22 b/w Martin and Union City, most of US 27 in the Chattanooga area, and all freeways stretches of TN 111.  The portion of US 27 in Downtown Chattanooga that does have exit numbers is considered unposted I-124, so for the purposes of this thread it doesn't count.
Title: Re: Why don't most states number exits on non-interstate expressways?
Post by: Revive 755 on July 09, 2022, 11:09:53 PM
Quote from: US 89 on July 09, 2022, 04:25:59 PM
If I recall correctly, current MUTCD guidance is to include mile-based exit numbers on all freeways, but this is obviously slow to be adopted.

It is a full fledged standard.

Quote from: 2009 MUTCD 2E.31 Paragraph 02Interchange numbering shall be used in signing each freeway interchange exit. Interchange exit numbers shall be displayed with each Advance Guide sign, Exit Direction sign, and Exit Gore sign.

My guess on why many states only have exist numbers on interstates is due to not wanting to change exits if the route number or overall route length changes.  Interstate numbers and/or lengths don't seem to change that much.  A non-interstate route may have more changes as parts are rerouted onto other bypasses or decommissioned.
Title: Re: Why don't most states number exits on non-interstate expressways?
Post by: Great Lakes Roads on July 10, 2022, 02:17:42 AM
Prior to 2013, INDOT had two state highways that had exit numbers on the expressway system: IN 912 and (former) IN 265. Then, US 31 came along and added exit numbers on the Kokomo bypass, Plymouth to South Bend section, and the Hamilton County section from I-465 to SR 38. Ever since the Hamilton County segment of 31 was upgraded to a freeway, the SR 28 intersection in Tipton was replaced with an interchange, and two more interchanges will be coming to the Hamilton County segment: 236th Street and 276th Street.

The other highways (US 24, US 20/31, and SR 641) don't have exit numbers.
Title: Re: Why don't most states number exits on non-interstate expressways?
Post by: zachary_amaryllis on July 10, 2022, 02:54:49 AM
I can think of two in Colorado off the top of my head, there may be more.

A short stretch of CO-115 southwest of Colorado Springs has exit numbers.
And, there's (they might have fixed this by now) exit numbers on the northern/western part of CO-470
Title: Re: Why don't most states number exits on non-interstate expressways?
Post by: -- US 175 -- on July 10, 2022, 03:49:18 AM
Quote from: Revive 755 on July 09, 2022, 11:09:53 PM
Quote from: US 89 on July 09, 2022, 04:25:59 PM
If I recall correctly, current MUTCD guidance is to include mile-based exit numbers on all freeways, but this is obviously slow to be adopted.

It is a full fledged standard.

Quote from: 2009 MUTCD 2E.31 Paragraph 02Interchange numbering shall be used in signing each freeway interchange exit. Interchange exit numbers shall be displayed with each Advance Guide sign, Exit Direction sign, and Exit Gore sign.

My guess on why many states only have exist numbers on interstates is due to not wanting to change exits if the route number or overall route length changes.  Interstate numbers and/or lengths don't seem to change that much.  A non-interstate route may have more changes as parts are rerouted onto other bypasses or decommissioned.

Looks like TxDOT has a *lot* of work to do (with the MUTCD wording as "shall" and not "may") with several non-interstate freeways and exits not numbered.
Title: Re: Why don't most states number exits on non-interstate expressways?
Post by: Ted$8roadFan on July 10, 2022, 06:48:50 AM
Massachusetts numbers their non-interstate expressways with a few exceptions.
Title: Re: Why don't most states number exits on non-interstate expressways?
Post by: mrose on July 10, 2022, 07:13:18 AM
In my experience, Wisconsin almost always numbers non-interstate exits, and Nebraska almost never does.

Colorado seems to be a mixture.... in the Denver area, C-470 and Pena Blvd have exit numbers, but US 36 does not.
Title: Re: Why don't most states number exits on non-interstate expressways?
Post by: thenetwork on July 10, 2022, 10:50:05 AM
Quote from: zachary_amaryllis on July 10, 2022, 02:54:49 AM
I can think of two in Colorado off the top of my head, there may be more.

A short stretch of CO-115 southwest of Colorado Springs has exit numbers.
And, there's (they might have fixed this by now) exit numbers on the northern/western part of CO-470


The Central City Parkway is an un-numbered road that connects I-70 to the casino areas of Central City & Black Hawk, CO.  AFAIK, there is one lone "exit" that is noted as such.  Why they went through all the trouble on a non-numbered road is beyond me.

https://goo.gl/maps/vYDc7oP7C4MqumEi6
Title: Re: Why don't most states number exits on non-interstate expressways?
Post by: skluth on July 10, 2022, 11:56:00 AM
Because they don't have to number exits on non-interstate expressways and it costs money.
Title: Re: Why don't most states number exits on non-interstate expressways?
Post by: zachary_amaryllis on July 11, 2022, 03:29:54 AM
Quote from: thenetwork on July 10, 2022, 10:50:05 AM
Quote from: zachary_amaryllis on July 10, 2022, 02:54:49 AM
I can think of two in Colorado off the top of my head, there may be more.

A short stretch of CO-115 southwest of Colorado Springs has exit numbers.
And, there's (they might have fixed this by now) exit numbers on the northern/western part of CO-470

I swear I must have driven past that a million times and never noticed that.


The Central City Parkway is an un-numbered road that connects I-70 to the casino areas of Central City & Black Hawk, CO.  AFAIK, there is one lone "exit" that is noted as such.  Why they went through all the trouble on a non-numbered road is beyond me.

https://goo.gl/maps/vYDc7oP7C4MqumEi6
Title: Re: Why don't most states number exits on non-interstate expressways?
Post by: CapeCodder on July 11, 2022, 08:42:33 AM
Quote from: thenetwork on July 10, 2022, 10:50:05 AM
Quote from: zachary_amaryllis on July 10, 2022, 02:54:49 AM
I can think of two in Colorado off the top of my head, there may be more.

A short stretch of CO-115 southwest of Colorado Springs has exit numbers.
And, there's (they might have fixed this by now) exit numbers on the northern/western part of CO-470


The Central City Parkway is an un-numbered road that connects I-70 to the casino areas of Central City & Black Hawk, CO.  AFAIK, there is one lone "exit" that is noted as such.  Why they went through all the trouble on a non-numbered road is beyond me.

https://goo.gl/maps/vYDc7oP7C4MqumEi6

In a similar vein Pena Blvd gets full fledged end/begin signs.
Title: Re: Why don't most states number exits on non-interstate expressways?
Post by: andrepoiy on July 11, 2022, 05:17:08 PM
Ontario couldn't give two [insert word here] about numbering, thus there are freeways that are not numbered (Hwy 409), and partially numbered (Hwy 427). However, it also numbers freeway sections of mostly-non-freeway routes (e.g. parts of Highway 11).
Title: Re: Why don't most states number exits on non-interstate expressways?
Post by: bwana39 on July 16, 2022, 01:34:45 PM
In Texas, they were originally sequential on the Freeways that were with limited exception all interstates. US-75 north of downtown Dallas was an exception and it too was numbers sequentially.

In the mid-eighties, Texas adopted the policy of ABSOLUTELY following the FHWA standards for Interstate Highways if any upgrades, repairs, or replacements were done. While some things were grandfathered and others waivered, if there was maintenance a non-waivered deficiency was corrected. One of these upgrades was the mileage based exit numbers on the Interstates  (another was a huge bridge widening program in the nineties.)

The bottom line is exit numbers are convenience / marketing tools anyway. It is probably of greater utility to those who call everything "route" (root). Here where we tend to call Interstates,"interstate" and Farm Roads either "Farm Road" or "FM". We do tend to call both SH & US highways "highway", but... In urban areas, we even tend to call freeways and highways by their street name (ex R.L.Thornton FWY for I-30 east of Downtown Dallas and Preston Rd for SH-289.)
Title: Re: Why don't most states number exits on non-interstate expressways?
Post by: fwydriver405 on July 20, 2022, 03:36:11 PM
Most of the non-interstate freeways in Maine are unnumbered.

ME Route 703, the Maine Turnpike Approach, has lettered exits (https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=29087.0), but I'm not sure if those count as true "exit numbering" since those are gore only. The same question would apply on ME Route 701, the Scarborugh Connector, but that one just has an auxiliary banner beneath the "EXIT" gore sign (https://www.google.com/maps/@43.6241038,-70.3193749,3a,15y,21.54h,89.13t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sGRng6aKYoIBebPlTq6kKiQ!2e0!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fpanoid%3DGRng6aKYoIBebPlTq6kKiQ%26cb_client%3Dsearch.revgeo_and_fetch.gps%26w%3D96%26h%3D64%26yaw%3D176.2851%26pitch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100!7i16384!8i8192). On Route 703, the construction of the proposed Gorham Connector west of current Exit 45 may change that but time will tell.

The freeway portion of US 1 through Brunswick and Bath, as well as a short portion of the Westbrook Arterial are also unnumbered as well. I remember asking MaineDOT about this two years ago and this was their response:

Quote from: MaineDOTQ: Why are there no exit numbers on the freeway portion on US-1 in Bath?
A: Route 1 isn’t a control of access facility for its entire length, placing exit number in the middle of route 1 for a 5 mile stretch might cause confusion.  MaineDOT uses mile point numbers to number exits and several exits are less than a mile apart which would require us to put exit 60 A – B- C-D  So we decided it was less confusing leaving the exits as they are.
Title: Re: Why don't most states number exits on non-interstate expressways?
Post by: kirbykart on July 20, 2022, 03:45:57 PM
New York generally doesn't, but there are exceptions. Most of these involve state route extensions of 3dis. The Parkways have mostly unnumbered exits.
Title: Re: Why don't most states number exits on non-interstate expressways?
Post by: TheHighwayMan3561 on July 20, 2022, 03:51:16 PM
MN has numbered portions of some non-Interstate freeways, but the vast majority of those remain unnumbered.
Title: Re: Why don't most states number exits on non-interstate expressways?
Post by: jp the roadgeek on July 20, 2022, 06:30:01 PM
Quote from: kirbykart on July 20, 2022, 03:45:57 PM
New York generally doesn't, but there are exceptions. Most of these involve state route extensions of 3dis. The Parkways have mostly unnumbered exits.

Most of the NYC and LI parkways do have exit numbers.  The Taconic just added them a few years ago and The Hutch converted to mileage based exits a couple years me ago.  But the GCP/Northern State, Southern State/Heckscher, Belt/Cross Island, Saw Mill, and all the north/south LI parkways (with a lettered prefix) have exit numbers. 
Title: Re: Why don't most states number exits on non-interstate expressways?
Post by: Road Hog on July 20, 2022, 09:27:21 PM
US 67/167 northeast of Little Rock started numbering exits in the 1970s once the highway got up to Cabot, and kept the system all the way up to Walnut Ridge today. Wise move, because of the coming I-57 designation.
Title: Re: Why don't most states number exits on non-interstate expressways?
Post by: kirbykart on July 20, 2022, 09:42:02 PM
Quote from: jp the roadgeek on July 20, 2022, 06:30:01 PM
Quote from: kirbykart on July 20, 2022, 03:45:57 PM
New York generally doesn't, but there are exceptions. Most of these involve state route extensions of 3dis. The Parkways have mostly unnumbered exits.


Most of the NYC and LI parkways do have exit numbers.  The Taconic just added them a few years ago and The Hutch converted to mileage based exits a couple years me ago.  But the GCP/Northern State, Southern State/Heckscher, Belt/Cross Island, Saw Mill, and all the north/south LI parkways (with a lettered prefix) have exit numbers.
I didn't even think about LI Parkways.  :banghead: I actually didn't know about new exit numbers on the Taconic. So I guess most Parkways have numbers, most other non-Interstate freeways do not.
When I said mostly unnumbered exits on parkways, I was thinking of NSP (formerly Robert Moses) and LOSP.
Title: Re: Why don't most states number exits on non-interstate expressways?
Post by: MASTERNC on July 21, 2022, 08:29:15 PM
Pennsylvania does not number exits on most non-Interstate highways.  The exceptions I can think of are PA 28 in Pittsburgh and PA 60 near the Pittsburgh airport (before it became I-376)
Title: Re: Why don't most states number exits on non-interstate expressways?
Post by: MATraveler128 on July 21, 2022, 08:53:42 PM
Quote from: MASTERNC on July 21, 2022, 08:29:15 PM
Pennsylvania does not number exits on most non-Interstate highways.  The exceptions I can think of are PA 28 in Pittsburgh and PA 60 near the Pittsburgh airport (before it became I-376)

The US 6 freeway from Scranton to Carbondale uses exit numbers as well as PA 378 in Bethlehem. Both schemes are sequential.
Title: Re: Why don't most states number exits on non-interstate expressways?
Post by: jp the roadgeek on July 21, 2022, 11:30:54 PM
Quote from: BlueOutback7 on July 21, 2022, 08:53:42 PM
Quote from: MASTERNC on July 21, 2022, 08:29:15 PM
Pennsylvania does not number exits on most non-Interstate highways.  The exceptions I can think of are PA 28 in Pittsburgh and PA 60 near the Pittsburgh airport (before it became I-376)

The US 6 freeway from Scranton to Carbondale uses exit numbers as well as PA 378 in Bethlehem. Both schemes are sequential.

As are PA 28's.  Plus the mile markers on that section of US 6 are based on freeway miles, not on actual miles in the state.  Otherwise, you'd have some exit numbers in the 300's on that section.  PA 43 does have mileage based exit numbers, except there are no numbers on the portions concurrent with US 119 and US 40.
Title: Re: Why don't most states number exits on non-interstate expressways?
Post by: sbeaver44 on July 24, 2022, 09:01:04 AM
Quote from: jp the roadgeek on July 21, 2022, 11:30:54 PM
Quote from: BlueOutback7 on July 21, 2022, 08:53:42 PM
Quote from: MASTERNC on July 21, 2022, 08:29:15 PM
Pennsylvania does not number exits on most non-Interstate highways.  The exceptions I can think of are PA 28 in Pittsburgh and PA 60 near the Pittsburgh airport (before it became I-376)

The US 6 freeway from Scranton to Carbondale uses exit numbers as well as PA 378 in Bethlehem. Both schemes are sequential.

As are PA 28's.  Plus the mile markers on that section of US 6 are based on freeway miles, not on actual miles in the state.  Otherwise, you'd have some exit numbers in the 300's on that section.  PA 43 does have mileage based exit numbers, except there are no numbers on the portions concurrent with US 119 and US 40.
PA 581 has exit numbers too – they are also sequential, although the exits are close enough together they pretty much line up with mile markers, except for the I-83 junction.
Title: Re: Why don't most states number exits on non-interstate expressways?
Post by: MATraveler128 on July 24, 2022, 09:22:15 AM
The only freeways in Massachusetts that have unnumbered exits are MA 57 from Agawam to Springfield, MA 28 in Falmouth, US 44 west of Plymouth, and US 1 Northeast Expressway.

Edit: MA 79 in Fall River is unnumbered as well.
Title: Re: Why don't most states number exits on non-interstate expressways?
Post by: hotdogPi on July 24, 2022, 09:25:36 AM
Quote from: BlueOutback7 on July 24, 2022, 09:22:15 AM
The only freeways in Massachusetts that have unnumbered exits are MA 57 from Agawam to Springfield, MA 28 in Falmouth, US 44 west of Plymouth, and US 1 Northeast Expressway.

MA 79 in Fall River, Plimoth Plantation Highway, MA 18 in New Bedford, MA 116 in Amherst (although that's only one exit), Storrow Drive/Soldiers Field Rd, US 1 in Newburyport, MA 1A near the airport, US 5 in West Springfield, MA 88

That said, most of these are really short.
Title: Re: Why don't most states number exits on non-interstate expressways?
Post by: MATraveler128 on July 24, 2022, 09:41:24 AM
Quote from: 1 on July 24, 2022, 09:25:36 AM
Quote from: BlueOutback7 on July 24, 2022, 09:22:15 AM
The only freeways in Massachusetts that have unnumbered exits are MA 57 from Agawam to Springfield, MA 28 in Falmouth, US 44 west of Plymouth, and US 1 Northeast Expressway.

MA 79 in Fall River, Plimoth Plantation Highway, MA 18 in New Bedford, MA 116 in Amherst (although that's only one exit), Storrow Drive/Soldiers Field Rd, US 1 in Newburyport, MA 1A near the airport, US 5 in West Springfield, MA 88

That said, most of these are really short.

I always forget that those are actually freeways. But adding exit numbers to these would only make things more confusing.
Title: Re: Why don't most states number exits on non-interstate expressways?
Post by: Ted$8roadFan on July 24, 2022, 12:04:52 PM
In RI, most non-interstate freeways have exit numbers. The only ones I'm aware of that don't are the East Shore Expressway (Ri-114) between East Providence and Barrington and the RI-138 freeway between North Kingstown and the Newport/Pell Bridge.
Title: Re: Why don't most states number exits on non-interstate expressways?
Post by: MATraveler128 on July 24, 2022, 01:44:51 PM
Quote from: Ted$8roadFan on July 24, 2022, 12:04:52 PM
In RI, most non-interstate freeways have exit numbers. The only ones I'm aware of that don't are the East Shore Expressway (Ri-114) between East Providence and Barrington and the RI-138 freeway between North Kingstown and the Newport/Pell Bridge.

US 6 from Johnstown to Providence also doesn't have exit numbers.
Title: Re: Why don't most states number exits on non-interstate expressways?
Post by: fwydriver405 on July 24, 2022, 02:28:08 PM
US Route 4 and 7 in Vermont, if I recall correctly, have sequential exit numbers (with MILEPOINT EXIT XXX signs) on the freeway portions of those routes.

Vermont Route 289 not only has exit numbers through its short 6.34 km (3.94 mi) journey as a two lane expressway around Essex, all of the numbers are true mileage based (from the proposed western terminus at VT Route 127).

https://vtrans.vermont.gov/projects/exit-numbering