Saw some photos on Flickr today of the 2008-era signage on Route 55 in Orange County and noticed that Anaheim and Riverside (the northbound control cities) are separated by a slash, instead of listed on their own lines:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/raymondyue/4825901880/
Seems like CalTrans's prior practice was to use a dash in the past:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/csampang/4807734920/in/set-72157624519667042/
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ffarm5.static.flickr.com%2F4122%2F4807734920_2bcca29318_z.jpg&hash=cdf7a9375b750bee097ce014b14170ad606f973f)
Do any other states do the two-cities-in-one-line practice to save space, and if so, how are the disparate destinations separated?
Quote from: TheStranger on July 25, 2010, 12:10:54 AM
http://www.flickr.com/photos/csampang/4807734920/in/set-72157624519667042/
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ffarm5.static.flickr.com%2F4122%2F4807734920_2bcca29318_z.jpg&hash=cdf7a9375b750bee097ce014b14170ad606f973f)
When I saw that old Falcon wagon and the old looking signs, I first thought this was a vintage photo until I saw the newer cars. Good job getting that old car in the photo, even though I doubt it was intentional.
This extremely ugly sign (death to Clearview) was found along US 75 in north Texas. I'm not sure if they always do it this way.
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ffarm5.static.flickr.com%2F4025%2F4441757904_12f46c7912.jpg&hash=50190589fc20c17d9d56c1a7293b0b7f0ddaf1d1)
Quote from: bugo on July 25, 2010, 12:31:16 AM
When I saw that old Falcon wagon and the old looking signs, I first thought this was a vintage photo until I saw the newer cars. Good job getting that old car in the photo, even though I doubt it was intentional.
Thanks! :-D I think the MacArthur Maze is the one place where I'm surprised by the utter lack of vintage photos - there are vintage, 1960s photos of nearby spots (the 80/580 split in Albany, the 5W/missing 50 trailblazer pair along the MacArthur Freeway) as well as a 1950s photo of 40/50 on the Skyway in SF...but nothing of the Maze itself or along the original Cypress Freeway.
Even if the 880 shields were replaced with 17 shields, the only way this could've truly been vintage is if there was no mention of 24 whatsoever (which until 1964 went through Berkeley, rather than to the MacArthur Freeway as it does now).
Quote from: bugoThis extremely ugly sign (death to Clearview) was found along US 75 in north Texas. I'm not sure if they always do it this way.
Thanks for reposting! The lack of separator between Denison and Greenville isn't really great legend - and with the space on the sign, couldn't "SOUTH" above the US 69 shield be on the left side, and the text on the right? Something more like this:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/csampang/4807129999/in/set-72157624519667042/
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ffarm5.static.flickr.com%2F4095%2F4807129999_c4bbc080c0_z.jpg&hash=2d2ab775246e47f3f3b68aba1557821ee2bc7984)
There is one on I-77 South (http://maps.google.com/?ie=UTF8&ll=41.129458,-81.652322&spn=0.007402,0.013797&z=16&layer=c&cbll=41.129325,-81.652346&panoid=IDB1ibzDUhyUOQQWoNqi8g&cbp=12,189.79,,0,4.16) before Exit 136 that has the same-line control city.
If I didn't know any better, I'd believe that Akron-Canton or Anaheim-Riverside were the same city.
For reasons beyond me, ODOT also does same line control cities for I-670 from I-71 SB. Dayton-Airport. Nowhere else in the city (discounting Dublin-Granville Rd)
According to the MUTCD, two separate cities on one line should be separated by a dash. The forward slash is only supposed to be used as the solidus (slanted line) in fractions.
I know there's been some Nevada signs that have used the forward slash to separate cities on a single line though. To me, it seems clearer to use the slash when the cities aren't related or won't be reached by the same highway.
With the existence of a couple of hyphenated cities (specifically Winston-Salem), I definitely think the slash might be the best solution for most places from here on out.
Either one though is better than "a small space" (i.e. the US 69 sign earlier in the thread)!
This is what I saw in Quebec a few years ago. A-15 northbound in Montreal...
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Flh3.ggpht.com%2F_ZkmN2RrOJxw%2FSvZOug2u-lI%2FAAAAAAAAQWU%2F5yy8W8MOQ_E%2Fs640%2FIMG_1092.JPG&hash=611e2408edd68b83ac95a8a29e17158a84ca3786)
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Flh3.ggpht.com%2F_ZkmN2RrOJxw%2FSvZOuyEx0XI%2FAAAAAAAAQWY%2FOpVFJIDsh80%2Fs640%2FIMG_1093.JPG&hash=25c4cbe4fe60d681e9edaea25885d581069f8fea)
Photos look fine.
Quote from: golden eagle on July 25, 2010, 05:56:10 PM
Photos look fine.
I meant that the photos had reflections on them, like the bottom one. I know some people aren't a fan of those.
Quote from: PennDOTFan on July 25, 2010, 06:24:42 PM
I meant that the photos had reflections on them, like the bottom one. I know some people aren't a fan of those.
hm, you're right. an absolute disaster. report to the ban chamber for ... reassignment.
OTA uses a comma in one place along the Will Rogers Turnpike (courtesy Eric Stuve):
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fokhighways.com%2F112802%2Fi44exit269.JPG&hash=f933ecf1a274fb1bf1e3135d68c14398c54aab37)
And this button copy sign uses a hyphen just before the H.E. Bailey resumes:
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.denexa.com%2Froadgeek%2Froad-photos%2Fmain.php%3Fcmd%3Dimage%26amp%3Bvar1%3Dok%252Fcomanche%252F044i_ex046.jpg%26amp%3Bvar2%3D1000_85&hash=75e8ce85d02fc11d5d926ad176123b092e3c52b4)
I would prefer a hyphen over a slash, but as has been said, with things existing like Winston-Salem, that is ambiguous. So I like OTA's comma usage, which brings the UK's signage practices to mind. Really, though, in the U.S. we separate destinations with a line break! If your project's budget rests on the sign panel cost difference between "Elgin - Apache" and "Elgin\nApache" then you are doing something terribly wrong!
EPIC BUMP!
Spotted two unusual control city separation practices in NE OK yesterday (in addition to another OTA comma–"Afton, Grove" or some such). One is a slash at the new exit off the Turner Turnpike–"Jones/Luther". There is no obvious reason why this is necessary, just OTA being OTA.
Another is in Tulsa, which uses a pipe of all things, it's on the ramp from WB I-44 to US 75–"Bartlesville|Okmulgee"!!
Quote from: Scott5114 on July 26, 2011, 08:29:06 PM
Another is in Tulsa, which uses a pipe of all things, it's on the ramp from WB I-44 to US 75–"Bartlesville|Okmulgee"!!
clearly, traffic coming out of Bartlesville is operated on by Okmulgee.
Quote from: Hot Rod Hootenanny on July 25, 2010, 02:58:22 PM
For reasons beyond me, ODOT also does same line control cities for I-670 from I-71 SB. Dayton-Airport.
I'm pretty sure it's because they forgot one when they first put the sign up. IIRC, Dayton/Airport is a patch. Actually, they may have changed it more recently so it just says Dayton, with an airport icon added to the top of the sign.
There's a pull-thru sign on the inbound 14th Street Bridge in DC that lists Capitol Hill on the top line and then "Nationals Park-Verizon Center" (separated by a hyphen rather than a dash because the text is so crammed in) on the bottom line.
I think this whole assembly is ugly:
http://maps.google.com/?ll=38.878038,-77.037495&spn=0.006373,0.016512&z=17&layer=c&cbll=38.87816,-77.037383&panoid=KUCPri4WRtg_WCTMtNJc7A&cbp=12,43.36,,0,-0.7
Quote from: 1995hoo on July 26, 2011, 10:24:53 PM
(separated by a hyphen rather than a dash because the text is so crammed in)
How many people know the difference?
(Edit: apparently not Brandon, see next post) For that matter, do the Standard Alphabets specify separate hyphens and dashes?
Illinois (IDOT and ISTHA) use a dash. Here's one on I-88:
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi837.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fzz298%2Fmidamcrossrds%2F100_0830.jpg&hash=e9129571d66647c753f35a4e31fe6797f378c3a6)
They even get used if they're on two separate lines:
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi837.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fzz298%2Fmidamcrossrds%2F100_0839.jpg&hash=8f0d487364653b2a13fc7dffb1da8815b312bdc6)
I think the case of twin cities like Bloomington-Normal is a little different.
I-69 at the interchange with I-75/US 23 has the control cities listed as Saginaw on the top line and Ann Arbor-Detroit on the bottom line.
there's always Massachusetts's famous "N.H.-Maine" on -495 (and, I think, I-95 too).
Quote from: NE2 on July 26, 2011, 10:44:33 PM
I think the case of twin cities like Bloomington-Normal is a little different.
However, "Bloomington" solo is the control of choice for I-55. It's not consistently one or the other (B vs. B-N).
Quote from: agentsteel53 on July 26, 2011, 11:10:31 PM
there's always Massachusetts's famous "N.H.-Maine" on -495 (and, I think, I-95 too).
Also MA60 west from 1. Random!
Quote from: vtk on July 26, 2011, 10:32:59 PM
Quote from: 1995hoo on July 26, 2011, 10:24:53 PM
(separated by a hyphen rather than a dash because the text is so crammed in)
How many people know the difference? (Edit: apparently not Brandon, see next post) For that matter, do the Standard Alphabets specify separate hyphens and dashes?
I will pick on the difference between an em dash and an en dash, so I admit I might be too attuned to these issues for purposes of road signs.
I'm pretty sure there is probably some difference in the standard alphabets, though, because I've noticed that on signs for the Franconia—Springfield Parkway (a road near my house) VDOT frequently uses an em dash to separate the two words, as contrasted with the hyphen the DC DOT used on the sign I linked before. Some of the signs do use en dashes instead, and an en dash is grammatically the more correct mark for that sort of name. Either one looks better than a hyphen.
Quote from: vtk on July 26, 2011, 10:17:04 PM
Quote from: Hot Rod Hootenanny on July 25, 2010, 02:58:22 PM
For reasons beyond me, ODOT also does same line control cities for I-670 from I-71 SB. Dayton-Airport.
I'm pretty sure it's because they forgot one when they first put the sign up. IIRC, Dayton/Airport is a patch. Actually, they may have changed it more recently so it just says Dayton, with an airport icon added to the top of the sign.
They actually have one of each through there now:
"Dayton" with a separate airport icon (http://maps.google.com/maps?q=e+fifth+ave&ll=39.988087,-82.985702&spn=0.00873,0.021136&t=h&z=16&layer=c&cbll=39.988189,-82.9857&panoid=goWg2vsn6eFIpxId5mdEEA&cbp=12,186.91,,0,-5.94)
"Airport/Dayton" on a single line (http://maps.google.com/maps?q=e+fifth+ave&ll=39.985686,-82.985337&spn=0.00873,0.021136&t=h&z=16&layer=c&cbll=39.985463,-82.985319&panoid=k-nPd6iUEH_sXqlkBryVug&cbp=12,167.45,,0,-9.96)
Quote from: The Premier on July 25, 2010, 11:31:57 AM
There is one on I-77 South (http://maps.google.com/?ie=UTF8&ll=41.129458,-81.652322&spn=0.007402,0.013797&z=16&layer=c&cbll=41.129325,-81.652346&panoid=IDB1ibzDUhyUOQQWoNqi8g&cbp=12,189.79,,0,4.16) before Exit 136 that has the same-line control city.
That's the first time I've seen ODOT use both Akron AND Canton as the Control City.
BTW, One of my biggest Pet Peeve in the air is when I fly into the Akron-Canton Airport, and nearly every person who works for the airline refers to it as the "Canton-Akron Airport", either because the airport itself is closer to Canton than Akron and/or because the airport's code is CAK. But you'll never hear a local call it that.
It is interesting in that, to me, using a forward slash (with a space on either side) would be the more clear way of separating two different destinations if they had to appear on one line. However, MUTCD guidance states that the hyphen be used for this separation, as the forward slash ("solidus") is intended to be used only for fractions.
Quote from: Hot Rod Hootenanny on July 25, 2010, 02:58:22 PM
For reasons beyond me, ODOT also does same line control cities for I-670 from I-71 SB. Dayton-Airport. Nowhere else in the city (discounting Dublin-Granville Rd)
My wife is from California and roads like Plain City-Georgesville just played hell with her brain for a while.
Quote from: Hot Rod Hootenanny on July 25, 2010, 02:58:22 PM
For reasons beyond me, ODOT also does same line control cities for I-670 from I-71 SB. Dayton-Airport. Nowhere else in the city (discounting Dublin-Granville Rd)
I thought "Dublin-Granville Rd" was the name of a single entity, not the town of Dublin and the Granville Road, but rather a single road with a hyphenated name.
Semantically, a hyphen makes sense if two cities are considered to be a single destination, like Bloomington-Normal, or even Dallas-Ft Worth if you're far away from it. If two otherwise-unrelated destinations are to be put on the same line -- like Louisville & Lexington -- I think semantically a semicolon, ampersand, or the word "or" would be best. Visually, a nice long dash (whose width is equal to or greater than the capital letter height) or a big dot are probably best at conveying the separation of the two destinations.
Really though, how often is it advantageous to put two destinations on the same line? You're going to potentially make the sign at least 8 feet wider that way, versus 2 feet taller by using two lines.
Quote from: agentsteel53 on July 27, 2011, 08:10:54 PM
Quote from: Hot Rod Hootenanny on July 25, 2010, 02:58:22 PM
For reasons beyond me, ODOT also does same line control cities for I-670 from I-71 SB. Dayton-Airport. Nowhere else in the city (discounting Dublin-Granville Rd)
I thought "Dublin-Granville Rd" was the name of a single entity, not the town of Dublin and the Granville Road, but rather a single road with a hyphenated name.
That's correct. Dublin—Granville Rd (most-correctly written with an en dash) is a single entity.
Quote from: vtk on July 27, 2011, 08:23:56 PM
That's correct. Dublin—Granville Rd (most-correctly written with an en dash) is a single entity.
is there BBcode for en dash? because I sure am not looking up the Unicode for it :sombrero:
Quote from: agentsteel53 on July 27, 2011, 08:36:37 PM
is there BBcode for en dash? because I sure am not looking up the Unicode for it :sombrero:
Don't know about BBcode, but on a Windows machine...
En dash — Alt+0150
Em dash – Alt+0151
Quote from: roadfro on July 27, 2011, 08:52:25 PM
Quote from: agentsteel53 on July 27, 2011, 08:36:37 PM
is there BBcode for en dash? because I sure am not looking up the Unicode for it :sombrero:
Don't know about BBcode, but on a Windows machine...
En dash — Alt+0150
Em dash – Alt+0151
The results of this of course depend on how well the website and the browser handle these non-ASCII characters. From these last few posts, it looks like it works well enough.
On a system with X (and the xorg.conf edited to enable a compose key), it's Compose + --- for an em dash and Compose + --. for an en dash.
Quote from: vtk on July 27, 2011, 09:04:07 PM
Quote from: roadfro on July 27, 2011, 08:52:25 PM
Quote from: agentsteel53 on July 27, 2011, 08:36:37 PM
is there BBcode for en dash? because I sure am not looking up the Unicode for it :sombrero:
Don't know about BBcode, but on a Windows machine...
En dash — Alt+0150
Em dash – Alt+0151
The results of this of course depend on how well the website and the browser handle these non-ASCII characters. From these last few posts, it looks like it works well enough.
If you can see the dashes in my autosignature, then em dashes at least are displaying properly for you. I've used en dashes in earlier posts in this thread.
Quote from: 1995hoo on July 27, 2011, 10:27:07 PM
Quote from: vtk on July 27, 2011, 09:04:07 PM
Quote from: roadfro on July 27, 2011, 08:52:25 PM
Don't know about BBcode, but on a Windows machine...
En dash — Alt+0150
Em dash – Alt+0151
The results of this of course depend on how well the website and the browser handle these non-ASCII characters. From these last few posts, it looks like it works well enough.
If you can see the dashes in my autosignature, then em dashes at least are displaying properly for you. I've used en dashes in earlier posts in this thread.
The forum seems to be served encoded as ISO-8859-1, which is essentially the Windows Western 8-bit character set. Furthermore, the FORM elements used on the forum specify that browsers should submit content in that encoding. I suspect that's the encoding used internally by the forum software. The only potential problem is that there's a chance some browsers (particularly on non-Windows platforms) might not properly submit content using that encoding, so users of those browsers might not be able to post using (for example) em dashes. This is why I try to build my content systems to accept UTF-8, as support for that seems to exceed any 8-bit encoding – except perhaps for pure ASCII, but that surprisingly has some caveats when it comes to form content.
Long story short, while possibly not everyone can post em dashes, everyone should be able to see them correctly.
Back on topic...
Um...
Oh yeah, I remember several years ago when a chunk of I-70 was under construction somewhere in Columbus. Heading into town, the EB guide signs for the I-270 SB exit were temporarily patched to read "Cincinnati/Wheeling". I think the patch was black on orange, even. The font was probably wrong, but I don't think I was aware of correct signage fonts yet... I could also nitpick the use of Cincinnati as a control city there, but that's for another thread entirely.
Quote from: vtk on July 31, 2011, 02:04:23 AM
The forum seems to be served encoded as ISO-8859-1, which is essentially the Windows Western 8-bit character set. Furthermore, the FORM elements used on the forum specify that browsers should submit content in that encoding. I suspect that's the encoding used internally by the forum software. The only potential problem is that there's a chance some browsers (particularly on non-Windows platforms) might not properly submit content using that encoding, so users of those browsers might not be able to post using (for example) em dashes. This is why I try to build my content systems to accept UTF-8, as support for that seems to exceed any 8-bit encoding – except perhaps for pure ASCII, but that surprisingly has some caveats when it comes to form content.
This is kinda an esoteric topic, so I won't go into the details.
But it is not a widespread issue because (1) Most modern Mac/Linux font families include the Windows character set and things usually "just work". (2) HTML5 actually requires that ISO-8859-1 documents support the Windows CP-1252 special characters, so if it isn't working, your software is not up to the latest standards.
Ludington-Clare on US-31 just east of Ludington
Quote from: TheStranger on July 25, 2010, 04:14:18 PM
With the existence of a couple of hyphenated cities (specifically Winston-Salem), I definitely think the slash might be the best solution for most places from here on out.
Either one though is better than "a small space" (i.e. the US 69 sign earlier in the thread)!
It's funny you mention that. To be honest, I don't think it really makes a difference, and I'm in favor of using a hyphen/dash/what-have-you in spite of (and perhaps in small part even because of) hyphenated cities.
For example, on I-5 in nearby Skagit County, you'll pass two consecutive exits with signs to "Sedro-Woolley" and "Bow-Edison". The catch? Sedro-Woolley is a single town, although like Winston-Salem, it was two separate towns long ago. Bow and Edison are two separate places along the same road, approximately 2 1/2 miles apart. This being said, I don't see it as terribly confusing, although perhaps it may just be a question of at what point do two cities become "twin cities"?
I think it's been long held (both on signage and off) that a dash is a perfectly acceptable and understandable way to combine two cities, particularly if they're reasonably close. (However, while I was browsing Wikipedia to confirm this, I found it interesting that you can fly into DFW: Dallas/Fort Worth International Airport or MSP: Minneapolis-St. Paul International Airport.)
Here's another example, from Illinois:
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi837.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fzz298%2Fmidamcrossrds%2F100_1369.jpg&hash=b7228d1290622cdf3115a7630ab191d9d923ada2)
Funny enough, there's a sign to the side with an arrow (just like the above) that has only Peru and Mendota.
Quote from: agentsteel53 on July 26, 2011, 11:10:31 PM
there's always Massachusetts's famous "N.H.-Maine" on -495 (and, I think, I-95 too).
...and on I-90 at the I-495 and I-95/MA-128 interchanges.