This is a phenomenon I tend to experience whenever I travel to the family home in Mexico or do something like camping. Specifically there is something I really like about minimalism and making do with what you have. That kind of is obvious with the camping scenario but maybe less so with the Mexico example.
At the house in Mexico it is pretty bare bones all things considered. The house is largely open air and basically brick based. This means you have to deal with insects and loud noises given there essentially no barrier to either. There isn't any air conditioning and about the best way to cool yourself is a fan in the shade. We have basic cable which can be viewed through the twenty plus year old TV, no internet so far. Appliances are largely manually operated (example lighting the hot water heater) and tend to very basic by modern standards. There isn't really a yard to maintain as landscape tends to be native to the area. Driving is a thing, but it is often easier just to walk places or ride a bike.
Every time I come home from the above two scenarios to my modern domestic American life I tend to feel empty for some reason. I don't feel like as though having a modern home along with everything it entails brings me much happiness, it feels hollow. About the closest I've come State side to living as described above was on Cudjoe Key in a rental when I worked on base in Key West.
The gist I've gotten on the forum is this line of thought tends to run contrary to my own. Is anyone else out there dissatisfied with modern American domestic amenities and looking to minimize as much as possible?
I have a similar sentiment when traveling for weeks at a time, living and working out of my Subaru. Because it's my home-away-from-home, I tend to pack just the necessities: camera gear, laptop with attached storage, bedding, canister fuel and stove + provisions, battery pack, and a cooler. It's also literally been home as I've been homeless for a month (because of moving hiccups). I've enjoyed it and it makes me really become a minimalist and it makes me plan for daily life, which I really don't do when I am in a traditional house.
What do I really need to survive? Where can I sleep at? Where can I get a shower (or how)?
I feel refreshed after each overlanding trip but essentially decompress for a few days when I am at the house. There is a lot more distractions in the house that I wish I didn't have but it is what it is.
I sometimes get a feeling of emptiness/hollowness when returning from traveling, but I can't say I've ever associated it with modern lifestyle/amenities or the lack thereof... more just a feeling that I've done something enjoyable but now it's over and it's too bad it couldn't last forever.
I suppose I could be described as a minimalist in some ways... I've never liked clutter or having stuff just for the sake of having it, I have a very basic wardrobe that covers the basics but doesn't include anything that could be described as bright or flashy, and prefer quality over quantity when it comes to just about anything. But I certainly don't object to modern conveniences like dishwashers, washing machines, and especially air conditioning and the Internet. Not sure I could do without those last two! :D
Since you mention insects and loud noises, neither of those bother me much. I'm used to pretty much all kinds of noise being from a good size family, and several years of sleeping in a modified lower level/basement cured me of any fear of insects as killing spiders etc. became a regular occurrence.
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on July 25, 2022, 10:02:28 PMThe gist I've gotten on the forum is this line of thought tends to run contrary to my own. Is anyone else out there dissatisfied with modern American domestic amenities and looking to minimize as much as possible?
There is a whole literature on how materialism breeds alienation--a Google search on {alienation of materialistic lifestyle} turns up interesting links.
This said, while I am very conscious of decompressing for a day or so after I return from a long trip, I can't honestly say that my usual approach to camping reflects a minimalist lifestyle, since I stay at developed campgrounds, drive a vehicle that likes paved roads, don't usually skip hot showers, and rely on a whole infrastructure of gas stations, big-box discounters, greasy-spoon establishments, etc. for food, fuel, and other necessities. I'm not sorry to return to a microwave, oven, glass-top range, dishwasher, and refrigerator at home, because those appliances genuinely save time and labor when self-catering. For me, I think the psychological transition has more to do with moving away from experiencing changes of scene on a daily basis and returning to the grind of routine in the same place.
Living in a city with active events generally helps, I find. I spend the weekends in Seattle or Bellevue and am generally happier doing so than being stuck in the suburbs.
Everyone is entitled to their opinions. That said, I don't feel the same way as Max or others in this thread.
Through time humanity has made unbelievable advances that make our lives easier. You bet I'm going to take advantage of all of those I can afford, leaving more time to do things besides surviving.
Also, a feeling of emptiness upon returning home from traveling does not always, or even usually, reflect minimalism. Obviously going back to work is going to suck after a great vacation.
Quote from: webny99 on July 25, 2022, 10:44:02 PM
I sometimes get a feeling of emptiness/hollowness when returning from traveling, but I can't say I've ever associated it with modern lifestyle/amenities or the lack thereof... more just a feeling that I've done something enjoyable but now it's over and it's too bad it couldn't last forever.
Quote from: J N Winkler on July 25, 2022, 11:46:54 PM
For me, I think the psychological transition has more to do with moving away from experiencing changes of scene on a daily basis and returning to the grind of routine in the same place.
Quote from: thspfc on July 26, 2022, 08:01:40 AM
Also, a feeling of emptiness upon returning home from traveling does not always, or even usually, reflect minimalism. Obviously going back to work is going to suck after a great vacation.
I find it interesting that three of us expressed a similar thought in three very different ways!
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on July 25, 2022, 10:02:28 PM
This is a phenomenon I tend to experience whenever I travel to the family home in Mexico or do something like camping. Specifically there is something I really like about minimalism and making do with what you have. That kind of is obvious with the camping scenario but maybe less so with the Mexico example.
At the house in Mexico it is pretty bare bones all things considered. The house is largely open air and basically brick based. This means you have to deal with insects and loud noises given there essentially no barrier to either. There isn’t any air conditioning and about the best way to cool yourself is a fan in the shade. We have basic cable which can be viewed through the twenty plus year old TV, no internet so far. Appliances are largely manually operated (example lighting the hot water heater) and tend to very basic by modern standards. There isn’t really a yard to maintain as landscape tends to be native to the area. Driving is a thing, but it is often easier just to walk places or ride a bike.
Every time I come home from the above two scenarios to my modern domestic American life I tend to feel empty for some reason. I don’t feel like as though having a modern home along with everything it entails brings me much happiness, it feels hollow. About the closest I’ve come State side to living as described above was on Cudjoe Key in a rental when I worked on base in Key West.
The gist I’ve gotten on the forum is this line of thought tends to run contrary to my own. Is anyone else out there dissatisfied with modern American domestic amenities and looking to minimize as much as possible?
I generally agree. However ...
Quoteinsects
It depends on the Insect. For example I love: Black Soldier Flies, Moths, Butterflies, and Ladybugs. This does not mean that I am going to leave any unscreened doors and unscreened windows.
QuoteH.V.A.C.
I love Heat Pumps, and can dehumidify the entire year. I do not want moisture to destroy the house.
QuoteBasic Cable
I have not missed it since 2007. Not much worth watching. And all the classic television is available with Outdoor Antennas.
QuoteInternet
As much as I hate it, I am not going to do with out it. It is not even possible.
QuoteAppliances
The only appliances I ever use are Slow Cookers, Electric Skillets, ... this includes Baby Electric Skillets that are so tiny they can fit in Cargo Pants Pockets. ... Dishwasher, Laundry Machines and the Washer is top load Impeller, Refrigerator, Freezer, Ice Machine ... It is separate appliance. Rice Machine, Coffee Machine, Tea Machine, Instant Water Heater. ... Also ... H.V.A.C. Is Package Units so the typical closet for them is empty.
QuoteLandscape
My land has no lawn. I never liked mowing lawns any ways.
QuoteTransportation
It is nice to ride buses and trains at least some times. Drivers of Automobiles can make me nervous. Walking and Riding Bicycles are dangerous.
QuoteDissatisfaction With Modern American Domestic Life
QuoteModern
Lots of these things are surprisingly not Modern. They have been around for decades or even centuries. Any thing from Marker Boards to Battery Electric Vehicles to Diesel Electric Vehicles to Ordering On Line have been here for 50+ Years.
QuoteDissatisfaction With Modern American Domestic Life Taken Literally
What I can gladly do with out is certain Cultures such as Too Long Did Not Read, News Feed & Weed, Stoners & Stories, that stupid band, and that stupid gamer, and gang culture.
I try to keep every thing in Simple English, avoiding Slang, and this also includes Initials. This is why steam is from my ears when I see advertisements for that stupid band, and Gang Culture seems to have made "Original" or perhaps "Classic" is now "The O.G." Or Original Gangster. ... Must Every Thing Be Gangster?! And that Gamer has changed probably every body's interactions with each other. "Bro" (and its variations) is some thing I limit to Relatives, people that I stayed with when younger ... and certainly not enemies. There is also the "Bro Fist", which is a type of Drug Transaction. I want absolutely nothing to do with Drugs nor Gangs ... this also includes Native African Black Males Wearing Socks With Sandals.
Quote from: thspfc on July 26, 2022, 08:01:40 AM
Everyone is entitled to their opinions. That said, I don’t feel the same way as Max or others in this thread.
Through time humanity has made unbelievable advances that make our lives easier. You bet I’m going to take advantage of all of those I can afford, leaving more time to do things besides surviving.
Also, a feeling of emptiness upon returning home from traveling does not always, or even usually, reflect minimalism. Obviously going back to work is going to suck after a great vacation.
QuoteThrough time humanity has made unbelievable advances that make our lives easier. You bet I’m going to take advantage of all of those I can afford, leaving more time to do things besides surviving.
Not every thing that is unbelievable is an advance.
A Video For People Who Did Not Read:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aP2jErXpNS4
For clarity the insects in question referenced in the original post were included annoyances like flies up to more exotic bugs like large locusts, army ants and roaches/water bugs.
Quote from: webny99 on July 26, 2022, 09:02:46 AM
Quote from: webny99 on July 25, 2022, 10:44:02 PM
I sometimes get a feeling of emptiness/hollowness when returning from traveling, but I can't say I've ever associated it with modern lifestyle/amenities or the lack thereof... more just a feeling that I've done something enjoyable but now it's over and it's too bad it couldn't last forever.
Quote from: J N Winkler on July 25, 2022, 11:46:54 PM
For me, I think the psychological transition has more to do with moving away from experiencing changes of scene on a daily basis and returning to the grind of routine in the same place.
Quote from: thspfc on July 26, 2022, 08:01:40 AM
Also, a feeling of emptiness upon returning home from traveling does not always, or even usually, reflect minimalism. Obviously going back to work is going to suck after a great vacation.
I find it interesting that three of us expressed a similar thought in three very different ways!
Count me in. I am not a minimalist by any stretch, and may even be the opposite. I like duplicates of everything, so when a charging cable gets lost or breaks, I have 18 more to back it up (and I get nervous when my back up supply dwindles). Yes I also get very depressed when a vacation or travel comes to a close. Some vacations I finally start getting used to a nomadic life, just to come back home and have to go to my usual work routine that I was running away from to begin with. Another layer to my depressions is, I am the vacation planner of the family. I plan it, the RV parks we go to, the National Parks we go to, the roadside attractions, the hikes, the beaches and of course the route we take. When it's all over, all of that, the months and/or weeks of planning, plus the actual trip itself come to a screeching halt. Sometimes it's a lot to take in.
"I try to keep every thing in Simple English, avoiding Slang, and this also includes Initials. This is why steam is from my ears when I see advertisements for that stupid band, and Gang Culture seems to have made "Original" or perhaps "Classic" is now "The O.G." Or Original Gangster. ... Must Every Thing Be Gangster?! And that Gamer has changed probably every body's interactions with each other. "Bro" (and its variations) is some thing I limit to Relatives, people that I stayed with when younger ... and certainly not enemies. There is also the "Bro Fist", which is a type of Drug Transaction. I want absolutely nothing to do with Drugs nor Gangs ... this also includes Native African Black Males Wearing Socks With Sandals."
Wut.
Quote from: Rothman on July 26, 2022, 11:02:56 AM
"I try to keep every thing in Simple English, avoiding Slang, and this also includes Initials. This is why steam is from my ears when I see advertisements for that stupid band, and Gang Culture seems to have made "Original" or perhaps "Classic" is now "The O.G." Or Original Gangster. ... Must Every Thing Be Gangster?! And that Gamer has changed probably every body's interactions with each other. "Bro" (and its variations) is some thing I limit to Relatives, people that I stayed with when younger ... and certainly not enemies. There is also the "Bro Fist", which is a type of Drug Transaction. I want absolutely nothing to do with Drugs nor Gangs ... this also includes Native African Black Males Wearing Socks With Sandals."
Wut.
"Wut." is also very :confused: I have difficulty with this one also.
Quote from: In_Correct on July 26, 2022, 12:02:38 PM
Quote from: Rothman on July 26, 2022, 11:02:56 AM
"I try to keep every thing in Simple English, avoiding Slang, and this also includes Initials. This is why steam is from my ears when I see advertisements for that stupid band, and Gang Culture seems to have made "Original" or perhaps "Classic" is now "The O.G." Or Original Gangster. ... Must Every Thing Be Gangster?! And that Gamer has changed probably every body's interactions with each other. "Bro" (and its variations) is some thing I limit to Relatives, people that I stayed with when younger ... and certainly not enemies. There is also the "Bro Fist", which is a type of Drug Transaction. I want absolutely nothing to do with Drugs nor Gangs ... this also includes Native African Black Males Wearing Socks With Sandals."
Wut.
"Wut." is also very :confused: I have difficulty with this one also.
It's just the very sarcastic version of what. It appears to be well-earned in this case.
:paranoid: The problem with modern American life is that it has experienced tremendous change over the past few decades. Not only does the cost of housing take up a bigger percentage of a paycheck, but we are more connected than we were even ten years ago.... especially if you are in IT.
Quote from: J N Winkler on July 25, 2022, 11:46:54 PM
There is a whole literature on how materialism breeds alienation--a Google search on {alienation of materialistic lifestyle} turns up interesting links.
Interesting in right! In particular, I found an article from The Guardian, and this passage stood out to me:
Quote
Another paper, published in Psychological Science, found that people in a controlled experiment who were repeatedly exposed to images of luxury goods, to messages that cast them as consumers rather than citizens and to words associated with materialism (such as buy, status, asset and expensive), experienced immediate but temporary increases in material aspirations, anxiety and depression. They also became more competitive and more selfish, had a reduced sense of social responsibility and were less inclined to join in demanding social activities. The researchers point out that, as we are repeatedly bombarded with such images through advertisements, and constantly described by the media as consumers, these temporary effects could be triggered more or less continuously.
That would seem to summarize the breakdown of society quite well.
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/dec/09/materialism-system-eats-us-from-inside-out
There are some modern amenities that I can certainly live without. I don't need a dishwasher or an electric can opener. Bare-bones basic models of other appliances/devices are also fine with me. A washing machine that washes, a dryer that dries, a refrigerator that keeps cold food cold and frozen food frozen, are all I need. I'm not a fan of all the bells and whistles that are standard on new vehicles. I can do without TPMS and backup cameras.
But having said that, I like the modern conveniences offered by technological developments and am not inclined to take a step backwards. That's one reason I'm not a fan of camping. My idea of "roughing it" is a motel where there's no refrigerator in the room and you have to bring a cooler inside to keep your drinks cold.
Quote from: ZLoth on July 26, 2022, 12:48:22 PM
:paranoid: The problem with modern American life is that it has experienced tremendous change over the past few decades. Not only does the cost of housing take up a bigger percentage of a paycheck, but we are more connected than we were even ten years ago.... especially if you are in IT.
Amusingly I feel about the same if not slightly less connected to the world than I did my younger years. Granted, my Dad was also the Vice President of marketing for Prodigy Online during the 1990s. I spent a considerable amount of time on early bulletin boards and chat rooms before the turn of the century. Suffice to say we had a lot more access to online everything and stuff like early cellular technology than probably 99% of families in the 1990s. I didn't have a cell phone after becoming an adult until my job paid (mandated I get one) in 2009. I did go until about 2007 without internet, cable has been on/off my entire adult life.
I do wonder sometimes if so much early exposure to modern communications technology turned me off to them somehow? It was interesting to hear my Dad make presentations or do media interviews about how the internet and communications technology was the future given how right he was. I certainly never really ever considered following in his footsteps career wise unlike my siblings.
Quote from: ZLoth on July 26, 2022, 12:48:22 PM
:paranoid: The problem with modern American life is that it has experienced tremendous change over the past few decades. Not only does the cost of housing take up a bigger percentage of a paycheck, but we are more connected than we were even ten years ago.... especially if you are in IT.
The connectivity I don't have much of a problem with. I run a D&D game, which takes place in a medieval setting, so we essentially have a simulation of a less-connected world. The only long-distance communication medium is the mail, which takes a few days to get anywhere. This has turned into a major problem for the players many times; often the bad guy could be easily stopped from what they're doing if only the players could contact someone in the next city over, or alert the capital as to what's going on, or whatever. It's gotten to the point where each group of characters has made a point to figure out some way to shim in some sort of magical communication gadget to get around these limitations. Point being, when you have to live without, you realize how much worse it is. I wouldn't want to have to deal with that aspect of living in that world in real life.
The thing you mention about cost of housing is spot-on, though. The personal finance hive mind says your housing cost should be 30% of your income. I live in a decent-ish house in an okay-ish neighborhood. It's not a particularly desirable area but it's not the slums either. My house payment is $1038/month or $12,456/year, which is really affordable compared to a lot of cities. To follow that 30% rule, you would need an income of $41,520/year. Assuming you work an average 40 hour/week job, that comes out to roughly $20/hour. There are a few jobs around here that pay that much, but not many, and most of them involve busting your ass for tips, so getting the full $20/hour is never guaranteed. And this is living in a bottom-of-the-barrel state. If you want to live somewhere in America that's got a halfway-functional government, climate that doesn't suck, and schools worth a damn, you will be paying more, probably much much more.
A related source of dissatisfaction with modern American life is how it feels like we are nickel and dimed for so many things that previous generations weren't. And how you can end up with massive amounts of debt and not a whole lot to show for it (ask anyone under 40 with a college degree, or anyone who's needed a hospital, how that's working out for them). And if you really look at a lot of advertisements, they've completely given up on serving the common man and are instead focused on hawking luxury goods or solutions for business owners. This ties into the housing thing too because most new housing being built isn't workhorse housing for the middle class, it's luxury housing, because that's more profitable. Those of us in the middle class are basically forgotten about by corporate America because it's so much easier and more profitable to chase after a few dollars from the rich people.
^^^
I never bothered to do the actual percentage on what our mortgage comprises out of our average net income but apparently it is 9.6%. And people think I'm nuts for wanting to stay in central California until I max out my pension in ten years. I'll have to use that percentage the next time my wife brings up getting a bigger house (which I don't want).
Quote from: ZLoth on July 26, 2022, 12:48:22 PM
:paranoid: The problem with modern American life is that it has experienced tremendous change over the past few decades. Not only does the cost of housing take up a bigger percentage of a paycheck, but we are more connected than we were even ten years ago.... especially if you are in IT.
The times people are living in are always "modern".
Imagine the thrill people had when they first got a solid roof. Or indoor plumbing. Or electric. Or their first TV.
The advances we have today are significant compared to what people had in the 1980s. Which is significantly improved upon what people had in the 1940s.
This video is indeed how long people need to work. Hopefully if they do not get sick, they can work that long. Usually they hope to get a promotion during this time. With School Employees for example, I can think of six teachers. Five were promoted to Administration. These five are married. Another one barely paid her house off after a life of moving numerous times and also being a widow. Her house is cosigned by one of her sons, who now has the house. She worked full time until around 70. Probably in her 90s right now, she is staying with other family members. Despite working at Schools being stereotypically being abysmally low paying jobs, especially considering they must attend Graduate School successfully, there is an increasing amount of people who end up WORSE than that.
Or Just Watch The Video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2eXU2p982GQ
I had a friend who had a couple of old-timey sawmills operated with steam engines. One of those steam engines was also attached to a 10-foot log splitter (I've never seen one before or since). Yet, when he wanted to set up a split rail fence along the road he hand-split all of the oak logs into (you guessed it) 10-foot sections. At one time, he had more than a 1/4-mile of hand split stacked railing running in the three different sections along the edge of the road.
I sometimes have the same sentiments. When I was growing up, there were very few power tools in West Virginia other than push mowers. I would spend much of my summers mowing the weeds on a steep mountainside where my great-grandparents lived with a scythe (pronounced like "sigh" in much of West Virginia, with a silent TH). Whenever I use a weedeater on some of our steep banks, I often long for an old scythe because it will cut a 30-inch swath whereas I'm lucky to cut a 14-inch swath with my weedeater. At my age, I'd probably die just trying to swing it a few times on level ground, much less on a steep embankment.
Quote from: Dirt Roads on July 27, 2022, 10:36:57 AM
I sometimes have the same sentiments. When I was growing up, there were very few power tools in West Virginia other than push mowers. I would spend much of my summers mowing the weeds on a steep mountainside where my great-grandparents lived with a scythe (pronounced like "sigh" in much of West Virginia, with a silent TH). Whenever I use a weedeater on some of our steep banks, I often long for an old scythe because it will cut a 30-inch swath whereas I'm lucky to cut a 14-inch swath with my weedeater. At my age, I'd probably die just trying to swing it a few times on level ground, much less on a steep embankment.
Around here, the tool's name was pronounced "size."
My dad had a couple of them, but they've long since gone missing. I wish I could find them, or purchase something similar. They're the best tool I've found for chopping down wild roses or blackberries.
Quote from: Scott5114 on July 26, 2022, 01:54:50 PM
A related source of dissatisfaction with modern American life is how it feels like we are nickel and dimed for so many things that previous generations weren't.
I wish we were in an age of being nickel-and-dimed...we're Lincoln-and-Hamilton'd now.
There's a lot of personal and varied reasons for personal dissatisfaction, and I think a large part of it is the massive amounts of complexity that we've added to life. There's more to go wrong and that tends to put people on edge that something is potentially about to fail or leave less room for backup.
We also tend to be overloaded with information; on vacation, we tend to tune a lot of that out. We give ourselves the focus on other stimuli so we can avoid the typical everyday distractions.
Lastly, I think there's also a lot of artificial concerns that we have to occasionally let go. Everyone has to figure those out for themselves.
Part of me wants your standard American life. A decent place to live, a car that doesn't suck, a decent paying job, with someone to spend your days with. The other part of me wants to say ”to hell with it”, turn a school bus into an RV, and spend the rest of my life traveling around the country and doing odd jobs for a living.
I hate sameness. I've moved three times going on four in the past year, maybe even five depending on how things go with this contract I'm currently in, as I try to find what's right for me and adapt to the punches that have been thrown at me so far. I'd probably never succeed with the latter option but it's appealing. Wherever I do find myself, it's going to have to be interesting.
Quote from: formulanone on July 27, 2022, 11:41:29 AM
... we're Lincoln-and-Hamilton'd now.
A rare reference to US currency that
also applies in Canada (https://www.google.com/maps/dir/Hamilton,+ON,+Canada/Lincoln+M.+Alexander+Pkwy,+Hamilton,+ON,+Canada/@43.2358226,-79.9232724,13z/data=!3m1!4b1!4m14!4m13!1m5!1m1!1s0x882c986c27de778f:0x2b6aee56d8df0e21!2m2!1d-79.8711024!2d43.2557206!1m5!1m1!1s0x882c9af169c7e2b5:0x2bf238f93e4ddf2a!2m2!1d-79.8745759!2d43.2158103!3e0) :-D
I am mixed about this because I was born in the USA but everybody around me came from a different country and when I hear their stories they are exciting. Those are stories about their home countries respectively like Mexico, China, Vietnam, South Korea, Taiwan and Philippines. I always hear that their traditions/Domestic life are exciting. In my case I had to learn to be about about them and I tend to be on the odd side or end up seeing my culture as dull on my end.
Quote from: bing101 on July 27, 2022, 12:09:29 PM
I am mixed about this because I was born in the USA but everybody around me came from a different country and when I hear their stories they are exciting. Those are stories about their home countries respectively like Mexico, China, Vietnam, South Korea, Taiwan and Philippines. I always hear that their traditions/Domestic life are exciting. In my case I had to learn to be about about them and I tend to be on the odd side or end up seeing my culture as dull on my end.
I wouldn't get too down about it. People view their history thru rose-colored glasses, so the fact that all those families immigrated here speaks for itself.
I guess I had it different, working in my teens with many fellow teens that fled Cambodia and their childhood sucked for obvious reasons. Their culture was obliterated in their motherland, but thankfully they were able to rebuild it abroad.
I've gotten soft in my older age, both figuratively and literally. A rustic weekend now and then might be nice but I really need my comfortable bed, climate control, and wi-fi.
I'm perfectly fine with being away from home for one or two nights, but anything more than that gets a little bit interesting unless you have a "base" to operate from. That's partly due to my earlier point about not having a very big or fancy wardrobe... which makes it easier to pack lightly but also means what I do have doesn't last as long before it needs washing.
Quote from: NWI_Irish96 on July 27, 2022, 03:50:51 PM
I've gotten soft in my older age, both figuratively and literally. A rustic weekend now and then might be nice but I really need my comfortable bed, climate control, and wi-fi.
I'm the opposite. Can't wait to get out of town and go camping somewhere, which I did last week and am doing again this weekend. I'll be climbing another 14er too.
This is me on top of Handies Peak last Thursday.
(https://i.postimg.cc/0NnjDXns/20220721-105757.jpg)
Quote from: SectorZ on July 27, 2022, 03:47:35 PM
Quote from: bing101 on July 27, 2022, 12:09:29 PM
I am mixed about this because I was born in the USA but everybody around me came from a different country and when I hear their stories they are exciting. Those are stories about their home countries respectively like Mexico, China, Vietnam, South Korea, Taiwan and Philippines. I always hear that their traditions/Domestic life are exciting. In my case I had to learn to be about about them and I tend to be on the odd side or end up seeing my culture as dull on my end.
I wouldn't get too down about it. People view their history thru rose-colored glasses, so the fact that all those families immigrated here speaks for itself.
Meanwhile, I would love to immigrate
out of the United States but I don't qualify to legally do so in any of the countries I would be interested in.
Quote from: JayhawkCO on July 27, 2022, 04:09:55 PM
Quote from: NWI_Irish96 on July 27, 2022, 03:50:51 PM
I've gotten soft in my older age, both figuratively and literally. A rustic weekend now and then might be nice but I really need my comfortable bed, climate control, and wi-fi.
I'm the opposite. Can't wait to get out of town and go camping somewhere, which I did last week and am doing again this weekend. I'll be climbing another 14er too.
This is me on top of Handies Peak last Thursday.
I feel bad or off I don't go regularly do things like hike, drive or explore stuff. I find things like sleeping in or sitting on the couch to be oddly stressful. My wife fortunately is pretty understanding about me going out the door at 4:30 AM on a random weekday to go hike to some long derelict ghost town on a long unmaintained road.
Quote from: Scott5114 on July 27, 2022, 04:28:40 PM
Quote from: SectorZ on July 27, 2022, 03:47:35 PM
Quote from: bing101 on July 27, 2022, 12:09:29 PM
I am mixed about this because I was born in the USA but everybody around me came from a different country and when I hear their stories they are exciting. Those are stories about their home countries respectively like Mexico, China, Vietnam, South Korea, Taiwan and Philippines. I always hear that their traditions/Domestic life are exciting. In my case I had to learn to be about about them and I tend to be on the odd side or end up seeing my culture as dull on my end.
I wouldn't get too down about it. People view their history thru rose-colored glasses, so the fact that all those families immigrated here speaks for itself.
Meanwhile, I would love to immigrate out of the United States but I don't qualify to legally do so in any of the countries I would be interested in.
They even have a word for that, emigration.
I take it based on some of your posts that a certain desert area southeast of Europe is out of the question?
Quote from: SectorZ on July 27, 2022, 05:35:35 PM
Quote from: Scott5114 on July 27, 2022, 04:28:40 PM
Quote from: SectorZ on July 27, 2022, 03:47:35 PM
Quote from: bing101 on July 27, 2022, 12:09:29 PM
I am mixed about this because I was born in the USA but everybody around me came from a different country and when I hear their stories they are exciting. Those are stories about their home countries respectively like Mexico, China, Vietnam, South Korea, Taiwan and Philippines. I always hear that their traditions/Domestic life are exciting. In my case I had to learn to be about about them and I tend to be on the odd side or end up seeing my culture as dull on my end.
I wouldn't get too down about it. People view their history thru rose-colored glasses, so the fact that all those families immigrated here speaks for itself.
Meanwhile, I would love to immigrate out of the United States but I don't qualify to legally do so in any of the countries I would be interested in.
They even have a word for that, emigration.
I take it based on some of your posts that a certain desert area southeast of Europe is out of the question?
Heh. Yeah, I wouldn't last too long there. I'd probably mouth off to some sheik and get the Khashoggi treatment.
I'd really like to live in one of the Nordic countries, or perhaps western Europe. But that's probably never going to happen, so instead I'm looking at just moving to a different state.
Quote from: Scott5114 on July 27, 2022, 06:15:07 PM
Quote from: SectorZ on July 27, 2022, 05:35:35 PM
Quote from: Scott5114 on July 27, 2022, 04:28:40 PM
Quote from: SectorZ on July 27, 2022, 03:47:35 PM
Quote from: bing101 on July 27, 2022, 12:09:29 PM
I am mixed about this because I was born in the USA but everybody around me came from a different country and when I hear their stories they are exciting. Those are stories about their home countries respectively like Mexico, China, Vietnam, South Korea, Taiwan and Philippines. I always hear that their traditions/Domestic life are exciting. In my case I had to learn to be about about them and I tend to be on the odd side or end up seeing my culture as dull on my end.
I wouldn't get too down about it. People view their history thru rose-colored glasses, so the fact that all those families immigrated here speaks for itself.
Meanwhile, I would love to immigrate out of the United States but I don't qualify to legally do so in any of the countries I would be interested in.
They even have a word for that, emigration.
I take it based on some of your posts that a certain desert area southeast of Europe is out of the question?
Heh. Yeah, I wouldn't last too long there. I'd probably mouth off to some sheik and get the Khashoggi treatment.
I'd really like to live in one of the Nordic countries, or perhaps western Europe. But that's probably never going to happen, so instead I'm looking at just moving to a different state.
New England would definitely suit you if you could stand the winters, which I presume you could if you're interested in Scandinavia.
Quote from: SectorZ on July 27, 2022, 06:19:54 PM
Quote from: Scott5114 on July 27, 2022, 06:15:07 PM
Quote from: SectorZ on July 27, 2022, 05:35:35 PM
Quote from: Scott5114 on July 27, 2022, 04:28:40 PM
Quote from: SectorZ on July 27, 2022, 03:47:35 PM
Quote from: bing101 on July 27, 2022, 12:09:29 PM
I am mixed about this because I was born in the USA but everybody around me came from a different country and when I hear their stories they are exciting. Those are stories about their home countries respectively like Mexico, China, Vietnam, South Korea, Taiwan and Philippines. I always hear that their traditions/Domestic life are exciting. In my case I had to learn to be about about them and I tend to be on the odd side or end up seeing my culture as dull on my end.
I wouldn't get too down about it. People view their history thru rose-colored glasses, so the fact that all those families immigrated here speaks for itself.
Meanwhile, I would love to immigrate out of the United States but I don't qualify to legally do so in any of the countries I would be interested in.
They even have a word for that, emigration.
I take it based on some of your posts that a certain desert area southeast of Europe is out of the question?
Heh. Yeah, I wouldn't last too long there. I'd probably mouth off to some sheik and get the Khashoggi treatment.
I'd really like to live in one of the Nordic countries, or perhaps western Europe. But that's probably never going to happen, so instead I'm looking at just moving to a different state.
New England would definitely suit you if you could stand the winters, which I presume you could if you're interested in Scandinavia.
Oh, I definitely could. My wife, however, a native of the San Diego area, probably couldn't. She already complains when it gets down in the 40s here in the winter. The horror.
Of course, part of the appeal of Scandinavia is the strong social safety net (i.e. social democracy) they have there, which as far as I know New England can't hold a candle to, try as they might. Some things, like the health insurance system, are just too entrenched here to offer any reasonable hope that they will change to my liking at any point, so the only choices are stay and bitch about it or leave.
Quote from: JayhawkCO on July 27, 2022, 04:09:55 PM
Quote from: NWI_Irish96 on July 27, 2022, 03:50:51 PM
I've gotten soft in my older age, both figuratively and literally. A rustic weekend now and then might be nice but I really need my comfortable bed, climate control, and wi-fi.
I'm the opposite. Can't wait to get out of town and go camping somewhere, which I did last week and am doing again this weekend. I'll be climbing another 14er too.
This is me on top of Handies Peak last Thursday.
(https://i.postimg.cc/0NnjDXns/20220721-105757.jpg)
The lack of snowpack on your peak causes me great heartache.
Quote from: Road Hog on July 27, 2022, 09:09:47 PM
The lack of snowpack on your peak causes me great heartache.
It's late July. This isn't abnormal. There were still a couple of snowfields in the couloirs, but after June, you rarely run into too much snow even at 14,000 feet (actually normally very little at 14,000 since it gets wind scraped during the winter and gets exposed to the sun unlike couloirs on the north faces.)
Quote from: SectorZ on July 27, 2022, 03:47:35 PM
I guess I had it different, working in my teens with many fellow teens that fled Cambodia and their childhood sucked for obvious reasons. Their culture was obliterated in their motherland, but thankfully they were able to rebuild it abroad.
It's situations like this (along with the ongoing invasion of Ukraine) that remind one not to get too down about current middle-class life in America.
Quote from: Scott5114 on July 27, 2022, 06:32:40 PMOf course, part of the appeal of Scandinavia is the strong social safety net (i.e. social democracy) they have there, which as far as I know New England can't hold a candle to, try as they might. Some things, like the health insurance system, are just too entrenched here to offer any reasonable hope that they will change to my liking at any point, so the only choices are stay and bitch about it or leave.
I don't know if this is an option you have already explored, but some EU countries allow indefinite expatriatism, meaning that if you have a male-line ancestor from one of them, you can recover citizenship and use that to apply for a passport, which then allows you to live and work anywhere in the EU. I know of people who have done this for Italy and Luxembourg.
While I have great respect and affection for European social democracy, no country is perfect. In the US, health care is probably the single most conspicuous policy field where the tablecloth fails to cover the table, but European countries have bare patches of their own, often relating to provision of transport infrastructure, managing the general price level, or keeping unemployment low. To give an example at the consumer level, not having to pay (or carry private insurance) to see the doctor or go to the hospital can be offset to some degree by having to pay purchase tax of almost 100% for a new car. It takes a fair amount of research and thought to navigate these tradeoffs.
New Zealand is also as far left as some of the other countries mentioned here.
Quote from: J N Winkler on July 27, 2022, 09:51:53 PM
Quote from: Scott5114 on July 27, 2022, 06:32:40 PMOf course, part of the appeal of Scandinavia is the strong social safety net (i.e. social democracy) they have there, which as far as I know New England can't hold a candle to, try as they might. Some things, like the health insurance system, are just too entrenched here to offer any reasonable hope that they will change to my liking at any point, so the only choices are stay and bitch about it or leave.
I don't know if this is an option you have already explored, but some EU countries allow indefinite expatriatism, meaning that if you have a male-line ancestor from one of them, you can recover citizenship and use that to apply for a passport, which then allows you to live and work anywhere in the EU. I know of people who have done this for Italy and Luxembourg.
While I have great respect and affection for European social democracy, no country is perfect. In the US, health care is probably the single most conspicuous policy field where the tablecloth fails to cover the table, but European countries have bare patches of their own, often relating to provision of transport infrastructure, managing the general price level, or keeping unemployment low. To give an example at the consumer level, not having to pay (or carry private insurance) to see the doctor or go to the hospital can be offset to some degree by having to pay purchase tax of almost 100% for a new car. It takes a fair amount of research and thought to navigate these tradeoffs.
I'm not really certain how viable that would be in my case; I'm told I have German ancestry on my father's side (thus my bizarre surname) and Norwegian ancestry on my mother's, but I'm not really sure if sufficient documentation exists to pass muster to get a passport. But further investigation might be warranted. I'm lucky to have a job with an employer in the United States that can theoretically be done from anywhere, so the possibility exists of taking advantage of one of the "digital nomad" visa programs that were implemented in the aftermath of the covid pandemic.
In addition to the appeal of European social democracy, I feel like my personal values are falling more and more out of step with those of the United States as a whole, and certainly Oklahoma in particular. I'm hoping that relocating to a different part of the country could be enough to remedy this, but I can't shake the feeling that the gulf between where I am and where the country is will continue to grow unless we reach some sort of turning point that changes its trajectory.
Quote from: J N Winkler on July 27, 2022, 09:51:53 PM
Quote from: Scott5114 on July 27, 2022, 06:32:40 PMOf course, part of the appeal of Scandinavia is the strong social safety net (i.e. social democracy) they have there, which as far as I know New England can't hold a candle to, try as they might. Some things, like the health insurance system, are just too entrenched here to offer any reasonable hope that they will change to my liking at any point, so the only choices are stay and bitch about it or leave.
I don't know if this is an option you have already explored, but some EU countries allow indefinite expatriatism, meaning that if you have a male-line ancestor from one of them, you can recover citizenship and use that to apply for a passport, which then allows you to live and work anywhere in the EU. I know of people who have done this for Italy and Luxembourg.
While I have great respect and affection for European social democracy, no country is perfect. In the US, health care is probably the single most conspicuous policy field where the tablecloth fails to cover the table, but European countries have bare patches of their own, often relating to provision of transport infrastructure, managing the general price level, or keeping unemployment low. To give an example at the consumer level, not having to pay (or carry private insurance) to see the doctor or go to the hospital can be offset to some degree by having to pay purchase tax of almost 100% for a new car. It takes a fair amount of research and thought to navigate these tradeoffs.
Hmm. I can trace my male lineage back to France (circa 1700), so that means I could get French citizenship?
I'd have to get a new job though. My US government job can be done remotely but it has to be from within the US. I also don't speak any language other than English so that could be problematic if I don't move to the British Isles.
Quote from: formulanone on July 27, 2022, 09:37:07 PM
Quote from: SectorZ on July 27, 2022, 03:47:35 PM
I guess I had it different, working in my teens with many fellow teens that fled Cambodia and their childhood sucked for obvious reasons. Their culture was obliterated in their motherland, but thankfully they were able to rebuild it abroad.
It's situations like this (along with the ongoing invasion of Ukraine) that remind one not to get too down about current middle-class life in America.
We certainly complain about first world problems. It's about time to schedule a trip to the 2nd or 3rd world for some perspective. I know my kids and I know nothing of the types of issues my wife grew up with being born into a concentration camp in Laos due to her father being a Colonel in the Royal Lao Army during the Communism sweep through SE Asia back 50+ years ago. It gives a whole new meaning to what one can live without, when you are pushed into a camp, provided absolutely nothing, and expected to be re-educated and survive on your own efforts. Or not. No skin off their backs. Then, they managed to get the family back together as the males were in a separate camp from the females, and escape under threat of being shot in the dead of night across the Mekong River into Thailand. 2 years of Thai refugee camp were an upgrade as rice and a shelter were provided, not to mention luxuries like a toilet. She certainly doesn't take nearly as much for granted as me and my kids do, although a 2 bedroom 1 bath trailer house weren't exactly a luxurious upbringing on my part.
Quote from: index on July 27, 2022, 12:00:43 PM
Part of me wants your standard American life. A decent place to live, a car that doesn't suck, a decent paying job, with someone to spend your days with. The other part of me wants to say " to hell with it" , turn a school bus into an RV, and spend the rest of my life traveling around the country and doing odd jobs for a living.
I hate sameness. I've moved three times going on four in the past year, maybe even five depending on how things go with this contract I'm currently in, as I try to find what's right for me and adapt to the punches that have been thrown at me so far. I'd probably never succeed with the latter option but it's appealing. Wherever I do find myself, it's going to have to be interesting.
I feel that. Usually, I'd hop jobs every 5 years or so so I could command a better salary/benefits, but I really don't feel like leaving my current employer since they allowed me to go full-time remote at the beginning of the pandemic. It's gotten easier with many more vehicle choices available now than before - want to go budget? Convert a bus or buy a used van. Want to go upscale? Get a converted Mercedes-Benz van. Need internet? There is T-Mobile Home Internet or Starlink. Need a shower? Hook up a tank and pressurize your water. Need electricity? Throw up some solar panels, an inverter, and some batteries.
I find that roughing it in the woods for a weekend or whatever to be restorative. Nothing helps one appreciate their comfy bed more than a having a restless night of interrupted sleep on a cot or air mattress while every little mouse fart and toad hop activates the primitive part of the brain that assesses threats in the night. But getting up because the sun has risen and going to bed because the firewood is getting low does feel better on some basic level.
It's even more invigorating when there is mildly inclimate weather. My last camping trip, I road out some light overnight thunderstorms. Nothing severe with like big winds and stuff; just a fireworks show of lightning and some heavy rain. Laying in my tent with nothing but a thin fabric between me and the rain, it makes me think about how much it probably sucked for our ancestors. Or I guess for many of our fellow humans today. I thought about what it would have taken to actually live off what this woods provided. It would be hard. Yeah I caught a bunch of fish that day and could have easily fed myself, but I had modern fishing tackle and some night crawlers I bought at a store. Without that gear, those worms would've been MY meal in that situation. :P
The other thing I find about camping like that is how much less sitting I do. A typical day for me is probably way too much sitting, staring at a screen. Out there, something always needs to be done. Cut firewood, set up the tent, prepare my bedroll, traipsing through the woods to fish a creek; lots of moving around. It feels like I earned the right to sit there around the fire in the evening sucking down beers compared to some evening at home where I'm just watching some bullshit on TV.
But at the same time, I never sleep well out there, especially the first night. For a while at like 3 AM when you find yourself needing to get up to take a leak (from all those campfire beers) it's a whole process. Where's the flashlight? Where are my shoes? Where's the tent zipper? Okay what's the minimal distance I need to go to water a tree? Then reverse it all and try to fall back asleep. In those moments, I miss my bed. But by the time the sun is up, that is all forgotten.
After a weekend camping, I am invariably scratched and nicked by various twigs and thorns. Probably have a few bug bites; maybe some sunburn cuz I missed a spot with the sunscreen. I smell like old smoke, Deep Woods Off, and B-O and can't wait for a hot shower. It's clear to me it would be tough to live like that so I return home I think with a better appreciation of the amenities I take for granted.
And a side note, having camping gear means you're pretty much always prepared for a power outage or some other short term emergency that takes away one of those conveniences. When I lost power for two days in June, it was only an inconvenience, not a crisis. I would have been fine for twice that long no problem.
Quote from: JayhawkCO on July 27, 2022, 04:09:55 PM
Quote from: NWI_Irish96 on July 27, 2022, 03:50:51 PM
I've gotten soft in my older age, both figuratively and literally. A rustic weekend now and then might be nice but I really need my comfortable bed, climate control, and wi-fi.
I'm the opposite. Can't wait to get out of town and go camping somewhere, which I did last week and am doing again this weekend. I'll be climbing another 14er too.
This is me on top of Handies Peak last Thursday.
[snipped]
I've recently got more into the outdoors than I have before and I have to say, I really enjoy it. My most recent trip to the OBX really inspired me. I've been camping, fishing, and canoeing among other things as of late and I hope I can get to the point where I can comfortably accommodate a lifestyle like that. Next time my partner and I go, we want to try to camp on the beach on Ocracoke Island.
This summer has definitely made me want to get a good off-road car like an Outback or something so I can take it to the beach or strap a boat to the top of it, plus hold a bunch of gear in the trunk and maybe carry some bikes. Right now I've got a shitty commuter car that's really holding me back. Maybe even a truck, I've chopped my own firewood and dumping it into the back of a 2015 Mirage isn't fun to clean up.
Quote from: index on July 29, 2022, 01:11:29 AM
Quote from: JayhawkCO on July 27, 2022, 04:09:55 PM
Quote from: NWI_Irish96 on July 27, 2022, 03:50:51 PM
I've gotten soft in my older age, both figuratively and literally. A rustic weekend now and then might be nice but I really need my comfortable bed, climate control, and wi-fi.
I'm the opposite. Can't wait to get out of town and go camping somewhere, which I did last week and am doing again this weekend. I'll be climbing another 14er too.
This is me on top of Handies Peak last Thursday.
[snipped]
I've recently got more into the outdoors than I have before and I have to say, I really enjoy it. My most recent trip to the OBX really inspired me. I've been camping, fishing, and canoeing among other things as of late and I hope I can get to the point where I can comfortably accommodate a lifestyle like that. Next time my partner and I go, we want to try to camp on the beach on Ocracoke Island.
This summer has definitely made me want to get a good off-road car like an Outback or something so I can take it to the beach or strap a boat to the top of it, plus hold a bunch of gear in the trunk and maybe carry some bikes. Right now I've got a shitty commuter car that's really holding me back. Maybe even a truck, I've chopped my own firewood and dumping it into the back of a 2015 Mirage isn't fun to clean up.
As you alluded to, I think a lot of the people who don't enjoy the outdoors just don't have the right gear, either because of the cost or just lack of experience. It's been a lot of money to get our outdoors set up the way we want it, but it makes it so much easier when you have gear that you've used a bunch and it works well for what you intend to do. When I moved back to Colorado, I drove a late model Kia, but I realized quickly to do the things I wanted to do, I would need something more robust so I traded it in for a 12 year old Xterra.
Once you've been in the outdoors, whether just hiking, camping, or going all the way to backpacking, you just feel more comfortable out there and the silence of the outdoors (mountains in my case), go from being moderately scary to being your medicine.
Quote from: JayhawkCO on July 29, 2022, 09:29:34 AM
Quote from: index on July 29, 2022, 01:11:29 AM
Quote from: JayhawkCO on July 27, 2022, 04:09:55 PM
Quote from: NWI_Irish96 on July 27, 2022, 03:50:51 PM
I've gotten soft in my older age, both figuratively and literally. A rustic weekend now and then might be nice but I really need my comfortable bed, climate control, and wi-fi.
I'm the opposite. Can't wait to get out of town and go camping somewhere, which I did last week and am doing again this weekend. I'll be climbing another 14er too.
This is me on top of Handies Peak last Thursday.
[snipped]
I've recently got more into the outdoors than I have before and I have to say, I really enjoy it. My most recent trip to the OBX really inspired me. I've been camping, fishing, and canoeing among other things as of late and I hope I can get to the point where I can comfortably accommodate a lifestyle like that. Next time my partner and I go, we want to try to camp on the beach on Ocracoke Island.
This summer has definitely made me want to get a good off-road car like an Outback or something so I can take it to the beach or strap a boat to the top of it, plus hold a bunch of gear in the trunk and maybe carry some bikes. Right now I've got a shitty commuter car that's really holding me back. Maybe even a truck, I've chopped my own firewood and dumping it into the back of a 2015 Mirage isn't fun to clean up.
As you alluded to, I think a lot of the people who don't enjoy the outdoors just don't have the right gear, either because of the cost or just lack of experience. It's been a lot of money to get our outdoors set up the way we want it, but it makes it so much easier when you have gear that you've used a bunch and it works well for what you intend to do. When I moved back to Colorado, I drove a late model Kia, but I realized quickly to do the things I wanted to do, I would need something more robust so I traded it in for a 12 year old Xterra.
Once you've been in the outdoors, whether just hiking, camping, or going all the way to backpacking, you just feel more comfortable out there and the silence of the outdoors (mountains in my case), go from being moderately scary to being your medicine.
The noises of the outdoors can definitely be frightening sometimes, lol. I remember going to a state park in the dead of night for my first time and I was totally creeped out. We were by a lake and there was this chorus of really weird sounding, high-pitched frogs or something, and every now and then they'd just instantly cut off and go dead silent. Calm before the storm type stuff. Felt like the build-up to a murder scene in a horror film. The kind of movie where the park ranger finds a dead body in the woods.