anyone got a photo of one of these signs? or any I-x80 shields instead of I-x76?
what year was it changed to I-76? Around 1963 is what I've heard; is that correct?
^^^
I'm not sure of the date myself, but IIRC only the section of I-80S from the Monroeville exit of the turnpike. (Today's I-376/US 22) got renumbered at this time. The portion from Monroeville westward was changed along with the Ohio remnant in the early 70s.
oh right, it got changed in segments. the eastern segment I've heard is 1963. the western segment is 1972, but it seems to have done in the context of a greater number swap.
(//www.aaroads.com/shields/img/PA/PA19720761i1.jpg)
given that 279 is now 376, Penna seems to really like doing confusing renumberings in the Pittsburgh area.
They should have just made the Parkway West I-376 back then as well.
Quote from: Mr_Northside on July 28, 2010, 03:33:20 PM
They should have just made the Parkway West I-376 back then as well.
I wonder if there's any photos of the Parkway West and East (east of I-79) signed as I-70N...or was it just plain I-70?
What I want to know is if somebody has a picture of a I-876 shield posted along I-579. ;)
Quote from: rickmastfan67 on July 28, 2010, 03:41:44 PM
What I want to know is if somebody has a picture of a I-876 shield posted along I-579. ;)
I've certainly never seen such a thing. Or a 70N, which I am not sure existed.
Quote from: agentsteel53 on July 28, 2010, 03:43:25 PM
Quote from: rickmastfan67 on July 28, 2010, 03:41:44 PM
What I want to know is if somebody has a picture of a I-876 shield posted along I-579. ;)
I've certainly never seen such a thing. Or a 70N, which I am not sure existed.
Well then, how about a I-479 shield? That had 5 years to live before being turned into I-876 (which only had 1 year itself) before permantly becoming I-579.
Quote from: rickmastfan67 on July 28, 2010, 03:52:12 PM
Well then, how about a I-479 shield? That had 5 years to live before being turned into I-876 (which only had 1 year itself) before permantly becoming I-579.
why so many renumberings?
Quote from: agentsteel53 on July 28, 2010, 04:12:34 PM
Quote from: rickmastfan67 on July 28, 2010, 03:52:12 PM
Well then, how about a I-479 shield? That had 5 years to live before being turned into I-876 (which only had 1 year itself) before permantly becoming I-579.
why so many renumberings?
Those even first digits implied a connection with the Parkway East on the south end - except I'm not sure that was ever proposed!
[Fixed quote tags. Remember, your text goes
after all of the [/quote] tags! -S.]
Quote from: agentsteel53 on July 28, 2010, 04:12:34 PM
Quote from: rickmastfan67 on July 28, 2010, 03:52:12 PM
Well then, how about a I-479 shield? That had 5 years to live before being turned into I-876 (which only had 1 year itself) before permantly becoming I-579.
why so many renumberings?
No idea, ask PennDOT. lol.
Quote from: agentsteel53 on July 28, 2010, 03:43:25 PMI've certainly never seen such a thing. Or a 70N, which I am not sure existed.
If only there was a website about Highways in Pennsylvania that could answer your queries.
In all of the trips to the Carnegie Library and Heinz History Center, I have not found any pictures that show guide signs nor shields but just shots of various sections of expressway. Adam Prince found that article, as well as another about the Parkway Central flooding which showed a guide sign that said "I-79 NORTH - North Shore. Even the Historic Pittsburgh Image Collections (http://digital.library.pitt.edu/images/pittsburgh/) only has scenes with some shields that are noticeable in the backgrounds.
Quote from: PAHighways on July 28, 2010, 10:00:34 PM
If only there was a website about Highways in Pennsylvania that could answer your queries.
if only that website had an I-70N page, because I don't know which page to look on to find out whether or not there was an I-70N.
Quote from: agentsteel53 on July 28, 2010, 10:12:19 PMif only that website had an I-70N page, because I don't know which page to look on to find out whether or not there was an I-70N.
Well it does have a Google-powered search engine where upon typing either "I-70N" or "Interstate 70N" would result in "...did not match any documents." Failing that, clicking on the graphic that says "Interstate Highways" would take you to a page where there is a link to all decommissioned Interstates.
Quote from: PAHighways on July 28, 2010, 10:25:46 PM
Failing that, clicking on the graphic that says "Interstate Highways" would take you to a page where there is a link to all decommissioned Interstates.
you buried that link pretty good there! alternately, you could just
tell us why so many decommissionings, renumberings, etc. I'm sure all the information is readily available on your website, but it's proving extremely difficult to find.
Or go find a 1960 Rand McNally road atlas, Jake.
I have at least one state official with I-70N on it as well.
Quote from: osu-lsu on July 29, 2010, 12:08:48 AM
Or go find a 1960 Rand McNally road atlas, Jake.
I doubt that will tell me
why the route numbers got changed so often.
Quote from: TheStranger on July 28, 2010, 05:08:23 PM
Quote from: agentsteel53 on July 28, 2010, 04:12:34 PM
Quote from: rickmastfan67 on July 28, 2010, 03:52:12 PM
Well then, how about a I-479 shield? That had 5 years to live before being turned into I-876 (which only had 1 year itself) before permantly becoming I-579.
why so many renumberings?
Those even first digits implied a connection with the Parkway East on the south end - except I'm not sure that was ever proposed!
One was. Look here: http://www.pahighways.com/interstates/I579.html It's the first picture.
Quote from: agentsteel53 on July 28, 2010, 11:13:00 PMyou buried that link pretty good there!
It's "buried" because those are historical routes and the ones that are currently signed get the top billing.
Quote from: agentsteel53 on July 28, 2010, 11:13:00 PMalternately, you could just tell us why so many decommissionings, renumberings, etc.
I-70 and I-79 were routed through Pittsburgh when the Department of Highways adhered to the rule that 2dis go through cities and even 3dis bypass the city as I-279 had originally. Then they gave up trying to put Pittsburgh on a major I-x0, and made it a straight route between Washington and New Stanton. The FHWA has a page (http://www.fhwa.dot.gov/infrastructure/i76.cfm) about the changes after 70's realignment.
Quote from: agentsteel53 on July 28, 2010, 11:13:00 PMI'm sure all the information is readily available on your website, but it's proving extremely difficult to find.
That is why there is a site search.
Quote from: PAHighways on July 29, 2010, 07:26:01 PM
It's "buried" because those are historical routes and the ones that are currently signed get the top billing.
maybe have both the active and defunct on one page? the page is long enough; having it be 20 screens vs 30 won't make a difference ... at the top you can add icons to page-jump links to each route so they can be reached with one click. Maybe color-code the active and defunct routes? Seems like gray is a fairly standard color for defunct routes across many roadgeek pages.
QuoteThat is why there is a site search.
the site search is pretty unintuitive to find - it's at the bottom of the first page, well past other bits of information, on a somewhat-too-cute "blue informational sign" (with incorrect fonts, alas). In the case of smaller browser windows, it requires at least one page-down key to get it to show fully. You did mention that the search is google-indexed, so maybe put a nice big GOOGLE logo at the top of the page? That will easily draw people's eyes. I think they've spent about 8 bazillion dollars optimizing their logo and saturating the market with it. May as well be the beneficiary of their research! :sombrero:
Quote from: rickmastfan67 on July 28, 2010, 03:52:12 PM
Well then, how about a I-479 shield? That had 5 years to live before being turned into I-876 (which only had 1 year itself) before permantly becoming I-579.
my question remains: why 479, to 876, to 579? The even to odd change I can understand if the road does not terminate at another interstate at both ends, but it seems like 479 and 876 are equally valid even numbers, especially given that it was an x79 for just a year between x76 incarnations.
there's something superfluous about
both 479 and 876 being used.
Quote from: agentsteel53 on July 29, 2010, 08:43:25 PM
Quote from: rickmastfan67 on July 28, 2010, 03:52:12 PM
Well then, how about a I-479 shield? That had 5 years to live before being turned into I-876 (which only had 1 year itself) before permantly becoming I-579.
my question remains: why 479, to 876, to 579? The even to odd change I can understand if the road does not terminate at another interstate at both ends, but it seems like 479 and 876 are equally valid even numbers, especially given that it was an x79 for just a year between x76 incarnations.
there's something superfluous about both 479 and 876 being used.
No idea how it actually happened, but here's a theory:
You have 76 into the city (now 376), 79 into the city (now 279), and 479 connecting the two. 79 then moves out of the city and swaps with 279. 479 would now run from 279 to 76. "479" would therefore be a spur off a spur, whereas 876 would at least be a spur off the main route. One year later, now 76 moves out, COMBINED with the fact that now the interchange is on indefinite hold between 876 and what is now 376. Since the Interstate really only connects at one end (to 279), it ends up having to be an x79 after all.
that makes sense. looks like Penn DOT's priority was fastidious adherence to regulation, as opposed to the resulting driver confusion ... "wait, weren't there 876 shields here?" "nah, you're thinking of 479"
why not go 479 to 476, then? 476 wasn't in use then (it was still Penna 9, the Scranton Extension) and all PA would've had to do was print up a bunch of single-digit patches.
Quote from: agentsteel53 on July 29, 2010, 08:56:39 PM
476 wasn't in use then (it was still Penna 9, the Scranton Extension) and all PA would've had to do was print up a bunch of single-digit patches.
It's not relevant to the Pittsburgh situation, but I-76 left Pittsburgh 8 years before PA 9 was reborn.
According to PAHighways: http://www.pahighways.com/interstates/pdi.html#I80S - Decommissioned in 1972
While according to PAHighways: http://www.pahighways.com/state/PA1-50.html#PA9 - wasn't commissioned until 1980
Quote from: agentsteel53 on July 29, 2010, 08:56:39 PM
that makes sense. looks like Penn DOT's priority was fastidious adherence to regulation, as opposed to the resulting driver confusion ... "wait, weren't there 876 shields here?" "nah, you're thinking of 479"
why not go 479 to 476, then? 476 wasn't in use then (it was still Penna 9, the Scranton Extension) and all PA would've had to do was print up a bunch of single-digit patches.
Probably because the Blue Route was already planned - I'm guessing it was given the number 476 even before it was built enough to be signed.
Quote from: agentsteel53 on July 29, 2010, 08:41:21 PMmaybe have both the active and defunct on one page? the page is long enough; having it be 20 screens vs 30 won't make a difference ... at the top you can add icons to page-jump links to each route so they can be reached with one click. Maybe color-code the active and defunct routes? Seems like gray is a fairly standard color for defunct routes across many roadgeek pages.
The reason they are off on their own page is to not confuse the general public as are the decommissioned US routes. As for a color-coding system, there is already one in place with "old paper" background and original shields used to denote decommissioned routes.
Quote from: agentsteel53 on July 29, 2010, 08:41:21 PMthe site search is pretty unintuitive to find - it's at the bottom of the first page, well past other bits of information, on a somewhat-too-cute "blue informational sign" (with incorrect fonts, alas). In the case of smaller browser windows, it requires at least one page-down key to get it to show fully.
The site is formatted for 1024x768 as the logs indicate that most traffic comes from people using that resolution. As for the font on the sign, it ended up looking like that when I resized the image.
Quote from: agentsteel53 on July 29, 2010, 08:41:21 PMYou did mention that the search is google-indexed, so maybe put a nice big GOOGLE logo at the top of the page? That will easily draw people's eyes. I think they've spent about 8 bazillion dollars optimizing their logo and saturating the market with it. May as well be the beneficiary of their research! :sombrero:
Google has the option to allow people to co-brand the search page and put the website logo at the top or side.
Quote from: AlpsROADS on July 29, 2010, 08:52:19 PMNo idea how it actually happened, but here's a theory:
You have 76 into the city (now 376), 79 into the city (now 279), and 479 connecting the two. 79 then moves out of the city and swaps with 279. 479 would now run from 279 to 76. "479" would therefore be a spur off a spur, whereas 876 would at least be a spur off the main route. One year later, now 76 moves out, COMBINED with the fact that now the interchange is on indefinite hold between 876 and what is now 376. Since the Interstate really only connects at one end (to 279), it ends up having to be an x79 after all.
Give that man a cigar.
The reason for the 79/279 swap was due to the Parkway North being shelved until the late 80s and wanting to keep I-79 a continuous route, much like on the other end of the state 76 and 676 were swapped due to the then incomplete state of the Vine Street Expressway.
Quote from: PAHighways on July 30, 2010, 12:24:41 AM
The reason for the 79/279 swap was due to the Parkway North being shelved until the late 80s and wanting to keep I-79 a continuous route, much like on the other end of the state 76 and 676 were swapped due to the then incomplete state of the Vine Street Expressway.
What's interesting about that:
- in the I-79 case, this ended up keeping the logical through route on one corridor, though I guess the similar concept of the 2di/main route entering a city well away from the direct path existed in Detroit with 75/275 (the bypass never being completed to its full extent!).
- in I-76's case, had it remained on the Vine Street Expressway as completed, it would have ended up having that stoplight at Ben Franklin Square, while the Schuylkill is at least a rudimentary full limited-access route.
California had something similar occur in the early 1970s when I-15 was shifted from the then-complete, but not fully-limited access ex-US 395 route in Riverside/San Bernardino (part of which had been finished and signed as I-15 in the 1960s) to the then-mostly incomplete Route 71/Route 31 corridor, IIRC in order to get interstate funding for the Ontario Freeway. As it turned out, what became I-15E at the time and is now I-215 would not become fully limited access south of Route 60 until the early 90s - something that makes me wonder if it would've been completed faster if it had remained the mainline interstate, instead of a 3di post-1982.