AARoads Forum

I was reading the article Children of cheapskates share their parents' most outrageous penny-pinching hacks (https://markholtz.info/2om), and it got me to thinking about how some of these "frugal" people can be downright plain annoying. Some examples come to mind:

• The people who insist on paying CA$H for everything. I understand the undertones behind this habit... if you are handing over cash to pay for items, it makes you more cost-conscious of what you spend your money on. Having said that, I prefer to use my credit card to pay for my purchases including the recurring bills, and, most importantly, pay it off every month so that I don't pay interest. Since I have a rewards card, I'm saving up the year-end cash-back to pay for some appliance replacement, and more importantly, build up my credit rating (https://markholtz.info/2on) so that I was able to purchase a home. Which brings me to my next point...
• The people who crow about paying CA$H for their home. All well and good, until you look at the details. The house is a big small, and doesn't meet their needs. They are out in the middle of the country, meaning they have to travel a significant distance to the store, further to the warehouse store, and even further to get to work. That's a problem that was underscored the past several months when gas prices hit record levels making every mile hurt in the wallet. And, the Internet connectivity, being that it is "wireless Internet", isn't all that great and expensive which poses a challenge working from home. But, hey, they paid CA$H for their home. :banghead: Meanwhile, I have a decent home where I can work to work, shopping is very close by, and I have gigabit Internet in both upload and download speeds.
• The "mommy fixes" where the repair usually consists of transparent or duct tape, all just to save five-ten bucks from purchasing a new replacement. Note that I'm not lumping the "self-repair" people in this category, as they are actually watching the YouTube HowTo videos, ordering the parts, and doing thew repair themselves.
• The folks who do anything to avoid the delivery fee even though their vehicle is ill-equipped to handle the item purchased which has lead to some very amusing pictures posted on the Internet.
• The folks who purchase the absolute cheapest products who, by nature, may lack features and functionality, and because of the lower quality, promptly falls apart a short time after the warranty expires.
• Likewise, the folks who life's mantra is "if it ain't broke, don't fix it". Slight problem... the item they are utilizing is so technologically obsolete to the point where they are hunting FleaBay to find the replacement parts that are no longer made by the manufacturer. I should emphasize that the actual replacement is both cheaper to operate and increases productivity, resulting in long term savings to offset the replacement cost.
• Not spending the little bit of money for preventative maintenance, including regular computer backups and oil changes. Nope, nope, don't have the time or money for that, but SURPRISE when there is a major repair or restoration bill that costs more and puts you out of action for days!

My parents weren't cheap but I ended up being more so.  I never found having more "stuff"  than necessary brought me much more than added stress.  Having less clutter and consumer goods always equated for me to more happiness, to each their own...

That said, I did purchase a car for cash which I knew would be technologically obsolete in a decade.  But then again, said car becoming obsolete was kind of the point. 

I saw this sticker in New York the other night and it fits this thread.

(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20220903/0a7fe90a8e43b073ff4f2d1eca6c51c3.jpg)


What gets me is being cheap to the point where it interferes with life. One of my mother's friends lives in Reston. Her husband was a law school classmate of my father's and they are longtime family friends of ours; I bought my first car from him. He died a few months before my father did and, weirdness of weird, they are inurned very near each other at Arlington Cemetery. Anyway, he was exceedingly cheap. Insanely cheap. He refused to use the Dulles Toll Road under any circumstances, no matter how much time it saved him, and he wouldn't let his wife do so either. She still won't use it now, despite riding that way when my mother was driving and being amazed at how much faster it was. There are all sorts of other things she won't buy because her late husband wouldn't buy them–despite money not being a problem. It doesn't make sense to me, but I guess in a way maybe it is similar to Stockholm Syndrome.

I pay cash for pretty much everything.
One place I saw said to use debit over $22 and credit under $22. (This was in New Hampshire, where there's no tax.)

Regarding saving money: keep in mind that driving costs 35¢ per mile (thanks Alps for correcting me). A closer restaurant can be cheaper even if the prices are higher. Same for grocery stores.

Only 35¢ per mile? The current GSA rate, effective July 1, is 62.5¢ per mile (even recognizing gas prices have dropped these past few weeks).

For really large purchases, or if I'm buying online, i use a credit card. For more routine purchases, i tend to use cash. Credit cards are usually easier, but not always cheaper, esp. w/fees.

Quote from: Max Rockatansky on September 03, 2022, 12:23:39 PMI never found having more "stuff"  than necessary brought me much more than added stress.  Having less clutter and consumer goods always equated for me to more happiness, to each their own...

There is something to the saying "Don't let the items you have own your life."

Quote from: ZLoth on September 03, 2022, 01:49:49 PM

Quote from: Max Rockatansky on September 03, 2022, 12:23:39 PMI never found having more "stuff"  than necessary brought me much more than added stress.  Having less clutter and consumer goods always equated for me to more happiness, to each their own...

There is something to the saying "Don't let the items you have own your life."

Quote from: 1995hoo on September 03, 2022, 01:16:15 PM
Only 35¢ per mile? The current GSA rate, effective July 1, is 62.5¢ per mile (even recognizing gas prices have dropped these past few weeks).

Amusingly my travel claim forms still display 58.5¢ per mile.

Quote from: Max Rockatansky on September 03, 2022, 02:01:25 PM

Quote from: 1995hoo on September 03, 2022, 01:16:15 PM
Only 35¢ per mile? The current GSA rate, effective July 1, is 62.5¢ per mile (even recognizing gas prices have dropped these past few weeks).

Amusingly my travel claim forms still display 58.5¢ per mile.

Next year, you'll have 2 mileage lines on Schedules C, E, and F: one for mileage before 7/1, and another 7/1 and after.

Quote from: ZLoth on September 03, 2022, 12:18:17 PMThe people who crow about paying CA$H for their home. All well and good, until you look at the details. The house is a big small, and doesn't meet their needs. They are out in the middle of the country, meaning they have to travel a significant distance to the store, further to the warehouse store, and even further to get to work. That's a problem that was underscored the past several months when gas prices hit record levels making every mile hurt in the wallet. And, the Internet connectivity, being that it is "wireless Internet", isn't all that great and expensive which poses a challenge working from home. But, hey, they paid CA$H for their home. :banghead: Meanwhile, I have a decent home where I can work to work, shopping is very close by, and I have gigabit Internet in both upload and download speeds.

I think the cash-on-the-barrelhead approach (which I have followed for cars but not for houses) has as much, if not more, to do with avoiding getting locked into a monthly payment.  It doesn't have to mean living in the country.  I have known people who have done it by living in a trailer park, by living in a prefab house on a city lot they own, or by buying a fixer-upper at auction.  These are all people with steady employment who had the financial capacity to carry mortgages but chose not to do so.

Yeah, I know people that don't have mortgages and live quite well without the narrow stereotyping mentioned in the OP.

OP sort of reeks of jealousy in that regard, or trying to make himself feel superior to those without mortgages or a monthly payment. "But my house is better and in a better location" just doesn't represent the population.

Quote from: J N Winkler on September 03, 2022, 03:21:41 PMI think the cash-on-the-barrelhead approach (which I have followed for cars but not for houses) has as much, if not more, to do with avoiding getting locked into a monthly payment.  It doesn't have to mean living in the country.  I have known people who have done it by living in a trailer park, by living in a prefab house on a city lot they own, or by buying a fixer-upper at auction.  These are all people with steady employment who had the financial capacity to carry mortgages but chose not to do so.

Perhaps. The example I cited factors in the cost of gas to drive to your needs, the additional wear and tear on a car due to the longer distances and the resulting need to more frequently replace the vehicle due to the milage, and the higher insurance costs because of all that driving to and from work. Plus, the cost of moving again. All that offsets the savings from having a "I paid CA$H" home.

Believe it or not, I was in this situation at the beginning of 2019 when I was job relocated to the North Dallas area, and thank goodness before the real estate market became a surreal estate market. One neighborhood caught my eye being especially close to my workplace, and when I looked at the surrounding area, the more I liked it. Nearby medical center? Check. Light rail to downtown DFW? Five minute drive to the station-NICE! Multiple shopping areas within 10-15 minutes. And, it's a nice neighborhood within walking distance to my workplace. I later on discovered that it is on the same electric circuit as the fire station and the medical center, thus a priority for power restoration. And, it was within my target price range. My mother thought that I paid "too much" for the home, and could have gotten something better and cheaper elsewhere. Probably, but it neatly fit my criteria. I wasn't looking for a "show home", just some modest place that is fairly easy to maintain. So, a small mortgage was going to be involved in the end. Flash forward to now. Because of the down payment made at the time of purchase, plus the money from some nice gains from selling stock, I was able to reduce my mortgage principal by a significant amount. I was also able to refinance to a 15 year fixed at 3.25%, and by paying extra on the principal, I should have my mortgage retired in seven years. Meanwhile, three years later, I'm looking at the nearby apartment rental rates, and I'm paying less in principal/interest/escrow than someone who is renting a two-bedroom apartment with half the square footage than my four bedroom home.

Yes, I realize that there are folks who get a home, but are barely able to afford it with just the monthly payments, and who would be hurting if a major repair occurs. And, yes major repairs will occur. Having said that, the mortgage interest and property tax is tax deductible from Federal income tax. The point I'm making is that you shouldn't just consider "having a home paid off" as a primary factor in choosing a home, but having a home that you will be happy in.

Quote from: 1995hoo on September 03, 2022, 01:16:15 PM
Only 35¢ per mile? The current GSA rate, effective July 1, is 62.5¢ per mile (even recognizing gas prices have dropped these past few weeks).

Depends what you're looking at.  The standard mileage rate of 62.5¢ is intended to cover not only fuel but also vehicle maintenance and wear/tear.  The mileage rate for relocation (qualifying active military servicemembers) and medical, which covers only fuel, is only 22¢.

Quote from: Max Rockatansky on September 03, 2022, 02:01:25 PM
Amusingly my travel claim forms still display 58.5¢ per mile.

Generally your employer may reimburse any amount it wishes, up to the rate limit.  If they reimburse less, you can claim the difference as a business expense on your income tax return.  My previous employer's reimbursement rate was always at least a dime under the current IRS rate.  Cheapskate.

Quote from: 1 on September 03, 2022, 01:11:09 PM
I pay cash for pretty much everything.
One place I saw said to use debit over $22 and credit under $22. (This was in New Hampshire, where there's no tax.)

That's probably for the store's benefit, not yours. I'm guessing that's the point where fees become cheaper for them when people elect to use a card.

Quote from: wanderer2575 on September 03, 2022, 07:27:58 PM

Quote from: 1995hoo on September 03, 2022, 01:16:15 PM
Only 35¢ per mile? The current GSA rate, effective July 1, is 62.5¢ per mile (even recognizing gas prices have dropped these past few weeks).

Depends what you're looking at.  The standard mileage rate of 62.5¢ is intended to cover not only fuel but also vehicle maintenance and wear/tear.  The mileage rate for relocation (qualifying active military servicemembers) and medical, which covers only fuel, is only 22¢.

Quote from: Max Rockatansky on September 03, 2022, 02:01:25 PM
Amusingly my travel claim forms still display 58.5¢ per mile.

Generally your employer may reimburse any amount it wishes, up to the rate limit.  If they reimburse less, you can claim the difference as a business expense on your income tax return.  My previous employer's reimbursement rate was always at least a dime under the current IRS rate.  Cheapskate.

I'm a Federal employee, the amusement is our travel department hasn't given us new forms with the current mileage rate. 

In my past employment in the private world my mileage reimbursement rate was usually between .48-.52 cents on the mile circa 2010-2013. 

The running theme of the OP in this thread feels like "just have money, why is that so hard?" to me.

Quote from: ZLoth on September 03, 2022, 12:18:17 PM
The people who insist on paying CA$H for everything. I understand the undertones behind this habit... if you are handing over cash to pay for items, it makes you more cost-conscious of what you spend your money on. Having said that, I prefer to use my credit card to pay for my purchases including the recurring bills, and, most importantly, pay it off every month so that I don't pay interest. Since I have a rewards card, I'm saving up the year-end cash-back to pay for some appliance replacement, and more importantly, build up my credit rating (https://markholtz.info/2on) so that I was able to purchase a home.

I try to pay cash for everything I can. Most of this is not for my own benefit, though, but rather a desire to allow the merchant to avoid credit card fees. (As a small business owner myself, they are a bane of my existence. I take them into account as part of my pricing, but on the rare occasion where someone pays with actual cash, it's a pleasant surprise to get a few dollars extra in profit.)

For cases where I can't pay with actual paper money, I try to use the debit card. I try to avoid the credit card whenever possible because I am afraid of getting myself into a situation where expenditures are greater than income and the deficit turns into a long-term balance. The interest charges more than offset whatever meager cash back can be accrued on the same amount. It's all well and good to say "well just don't spend more than your income", but that is hard to do when you budget for an expected income of X and it ends up being less than that because a member of the household was ill, because payroll screwed up their check, because sales figures didn't meet what was projected, etc. If you are paying upfront you have more control to adjust spending on the fly.

Quote from: ZLoth on September 03, 2022, 12:18:17 PMThe "mommy fixes" where the repair usually consists of transparent or duct tape, all just to save five-ten bucks from purchasing a new replacement. Note that I'm not lumping the "self-repair" people in this category, as they are actually watching the YouTube HowTo videos, ordering the parts, and doing thew repair themselves.

Some people don't have the five-to-ten bucks to effect a proper repair. Five to ten bucks adds up if you have a bunch of stuff break at once. There is also the opportunity cost of spending the time repairing it properly; if a repair costs me five dollars but takes two hours to do, and I value my time at $20/hour, then the true cost of the repair is $45. This is of particular import to those who are self-employed (as I am), because any time I spend on this sort of thing is time I can't spend making money.

There's also the problem that acquiring the skills and tools needed to effect repairs often takes time and money. Sure, it's a simple five-minute repair that you can fix with $2.50 worth of wood screws...if you have thirty years woodworking experience and $7500 worth of power tools at your disposal.

Quote from: ZLoth on September 03, 2022, 12:18:17 PMThe folks who do anything to avoid the delivery fee even though their vehicle is ill-equipped to handle the item purchased which has lead to some very amusing pictures posted on the Internet.

I've found that the best way to avoid delivery fees is to be in good graces with someone that owns a truck. After they help you, order a pizza for them. This may or may not be less than the delivery fee, but you get to hang out with your friend and eat pizza afterward.

Speaking of pizza, I've taken to ordering carryout lately. (Apologies to Zachary, should he read this.) I live near enough to Pizza Hut that I figured out that, even at the IRS mileage rate, it's faster and cheaper for me to go get the pizza myself than to have it delivered. (The only exception is if something's going on at the house where I don't want to leave; e.g. we have people over).

Quote from: ZLoth on September 03, 2022, 12:18:17 PMNot spending the little bit of money for preventative maintenance, including regular computer backups and oil changes. Nope, nope, don't have the time or money for that, but SURPRISE when there is a major repair or restoration bill that costs more and puts you out of action for days!

Sometimes there literally isn't enough money. My backyard fence is falling apart, but any amount of yelling "I need to spend a little money on preventative maintenance!" at the bank doesn't cause them to deposit anything in my account.

At least for a few of the items you mentioned, I don't see how this is being a cheapskate.

Quote from: ZLoth on September 03, 2022, 12:18:17 PM
I was reading the article Children of cheapskates share their parents' most outrageous penny-pinching hacks (https://markholtz.info/2om), and it got me to thinking about how some of these "frugal" people can be downright plain annoying. Some examples come to mind:

• The people who insist on paying CA$H for everything. I understand the undertones behind this habit... if you are handing over cash to pay for items, it makes you more cost-conscious of what you spend your money on. Having said that, I prefer to use my credit card to pay for my purchases including the recurring bills, and, most importantly, pay it off every month so that I don't pay interest. Since I have a rewards card, I'm saving up the year-end cash-back to pay for some appliance replacement, and more importantly, build up my credit rating (https://markholtz.info/2on) so that I was able to purchase a home. Which brings me to my next point...

There can be reasons for this, such as they have bad credit and can't get a rewards card.  Cash Back and Points cards tend to be available to those with good or excellent credit.  People that can qualify for a rewards card are missing out if they don't get one.  This could be because they already have a card and don't want to bother applying for a card, or don't understand how they can work to their benefit.  But either way, it's not being a cheapskate, but rather probably being a little uneducated as to the benefits of having one.

Quote from: ZLoth on September 03, 2022, 12:18:17 PM

• The people who crow about paying CA$H for their home. All well and good, until you look at the details. The house is a big small, and doesn't meet their needs. They are out in the middle of the country, meaning they have to travel a significant distance to the store, further to the warehouse store, and even further to get to work. That's a problem that was underscored the past several months when gas prices hit record levels making every mile hurt in the wallet. And, the Internet connectivity, being that it is "wireless Internet", isn't all that great and expensive which poses a challenge working from home. But, hey, they paid CA$H for their home. :banghead: Meanwhile, I have a decent home where I can work to work, shopping is very close by, and I have gigabit Internet in both upload and download speeds.

Is this opinion or fact?  Are these people saying they paid cash but now they're pissed their stuck far away from everything in a small house?  Or is it you looking at it thinking they should be living closer to whatever you consider is closer?  There's a bit of give and take with this one.  They may be stuck further away, but they're also not paying hundreds a month in interest charges on a mortgage.  That's a lot of gas they have to buy, even at $5 a gallon, to make up for that money given to the bank.  Roughly speaking, for every $100,000 spend on a house, over $100,000 is spent on the interest over a 30 year loan.  There's a bit of a tradeoff paying cash if it means living further away, but that's ultimately quite a bit of money saved.  If they like living further away, again, that's not being a cheapskate; that's simply a life choice.

Regarding the discussion of buying a home with cash, I feel like living around Boston that buying a house with cash is so foreign due to needing to be fairly well off to do so.

Heck I just had a former neighbor refinance a 30 yr. mortgage on his condo at age 70. The bank didn't bat an eye that he has pretty much a 100% chance of not being alive by the end.

I was doing some home repair yesterday and this thread makes me think of how there's a difference between doing something low-cost but effective and doing something just to cheap out that will fall apart. We live in a townhouse that has settled a bit over 30 years and two doors were out of plumb. A cheap and easy repair is to use hinge shims to straighten them. Took maybe 10 minutes to do both doors. That's easy and simple and effective.

Similarly, at the moment my car's driver's door has an issue where the handle you pull on the inside to open the door isn't working. I haven't gotten around to taking it in to get it fixed, so I roll down the window, reach outside to open the door, and then roll the window back up. Dumb, I know, but in the short term it works.

On the other hand, the guy who owns the house next door to us (he rents it out) is a do-it-yourselfer who is not as competent as he thinks he is. I shudder at the memory of the day he was up in a tree with a chainsaw trying to trim the tree instead of paying someone to do it. It wound up all lopsided and ugly because he didn't know how to trim it properly. (Thankfully it has now been replaced.) He replaced cabinets himself and the former tenant told me they fell off the wall one day. Sometimes it makes more sense to hire someone to do the job properly.

At the moment we have the cash on hand to pay off our home.  However doing so now will destroy our retirement accounts.  At this point it isn't worth doing something like that for our super low $1,200 dollar mortgage.  Given inflation ticks at 3-4% annually I don't really think it will be worth it to just up and pay off the loan, we might as well just like the mortgage pay out naturally. 

That said, we do find ourselves in a home with a rapidly rising value.  The city we live in is becoming a popular escape for the Bay Area, the single-family home supply is artificially being kept small regulations and a new school district is in the process of being built.  I have 14 years until I can take full/penalty free retirement from work and I believe my wife is about 12 away.  We probably can write our own meal ticket and pay cash for a home somewhere else if we manage to stay employed. 

https://www.investopedia.com/terms/f/financial-independence-retire-early-fire.asp (https://www.investopedia.com/terms/f/financial-independence-retire-early-fire.asp)

https://www.businessinsider.com/personal-finance/joining-fire-movement-navy-2022-8 (https://www.businessinsider.com/personal-finance/joining-fire-movement-navy-2022-8)
Interesting how much of this frugal and cheapskate statements seen here are tied to this one the Financial Independence, Retire Early movement aka (FIRE Movement) this is a series of tips to succeed financially and live without debt. Note I don't know if this is possible in your situation but it is possible for those living without credit and wealthy.
https://www.businessinsider.com/warren-buffett-modest-home-bought-31500-looks-2017-6 (https://www.businessinsider.com/warren-buffett-modest-home-bought-31500-looks-2017-6)

https://www.cnbc.com/video/2022/04/30/we-will-always-have-a-lot-of-cash-on-hand-says-warren-buffett.html (https://www.cnbc.com/video/2022/04/30/we-will-always-have-a-lot-of-cash-on-hand-says-warren-buffett.html)
I understand some in the frugality groups look at Warren Buffett financial model as their framework to succeed in life.

Quote from: SectorZ on September 04, 2022, 08:18:06 AMHeck I just had a former neighbor refinance a 30 yr. mortgage on his condo at age 70. The bank didn't bat an eye that he has pretty much a 100% chance of not being alive by the end.

Hopefully, the neighbor was able to refinance before the interest rates shot upward earlier this year. Still, I would hate to enter retirement without a paid-off residence.

Quote from: 1995hoo on September 04, 2022, 09:06:02 AMI was doing some home repair yesterday and this thread makes me think of how there's a difference between doing something low-cost but effective and doing something just to cheap out that will fall apart. We live in a townhouse that has settled a bit over 30 years and two doors were out of plumb. A cheap and easy repair is to use hinge shims to straighten them. Took maybe 10 minutes to do both doors. That's easy and simple and effective.

I need to do that on one set of doors in my Texas home. Definitely not a "mommy fix".

Quote from: Max Rockatansky on September 04, 2022, 10:08:58 AMAt the moment we have the cash on hand to pay off our home.  However doing so now will destroy our retirement accounts.  At this point it isn't worth doing something like that for our super low $1,200 dollar mortgage.  Given inflation ticks at 3-4% annually I don't really think it will be worth it to just up and pay off the loan, we might as well just like the mortgage pay out naturally.

Just as a point of clarification.... does that $1,200 mortgage payment include the escrow payment for the property tax and homeowners insurance?

My own fiscal priorities is to fully fund my retirement accounts each year, followed by paying off my home by just adding an additional payment on the principal each month. The mortgage interest is deductible from the federal income taxes if you itemize. While I could pay off the mortgage now, I lose some of that opportunity cost of having that money to invest.

Quote from: Max Rockatansky on September 04, 2022, 10:08:58 AMThat said, we do find ourselves in a home with a rapidly rising value.  The city we live in is becoming a popular escape for the Bay Area, the single-family home supply is artificially being kept small regulations and a new school district is in the process of being built.  I have 14 years until I can take full/penalty free retirement from work and I believe my wife is about 12 away.  We probably can write our own meal ticket and pay cash for a home somewhere else if we manage to stay employed.

If you are talking about the San Francisco Bay Area... there have been many retirees who have moved to other states in order to afford to retire. I know that with California companies relocating to Texas, that has helped drive up real estate prices where people are overpaying on homes (and with CA$H) too. Texas may have no state income tax, but it's made up in the property tax assessments (which, thankfully, remain local).

Yes, it is a ballpark estimate off the current escrow.  It has tended to be on an upward projection over the years given the assessed property value has increased.  Nonetheless that's about the going rate for a one bedroom apartment in most places I've lived previously.  I don't think that low of a payment is something we can easily replicate given we live in a city of over 500,000 residents (Fresno).  That said, our ambitions for retirement likely have us moving to a more rural area up north either in far northern California or southern Oregon.

Florida had a similar hook with property taxes versus no income taxes.  I seem to recall to be exempt from certain properties taxes in Florida you had to be a part resident (I believe less than six months) and claim your house as a second home.  That went a long way to explain why there is so many transient snow birds during the Fall-Winter seasons.

Quote from: 1995hoo on September 03, 2022, 01:16:15 PM
Only 35¢ per mile? The current GSA rate, effective July 1, is 62.5¢ per mile (even recognizing gas prices have dropped these past few weeks).

Quote from: wanderer2575 on September 03, 2022, 07:27:58 PM
Depends what you're looking at.  The standard mileage rate of 62.5¢ is intended to cover not only fuel but also vehicle maintenance and wear/tear.  The mileage rate for relocation (qualifying active military servicemembers) and medical, which covers only fuel, is only 22¢.

Amusingly my travel claim forms still display 58.5¢ per mile.

Quote from: Max Rockatansky on September 03, 2022, 02:01:25 PM
Generally your employer may reimburse any amount it wishes, up to the rate limit.  If they reimburse less, you can claim the difference as a business expense on your income tax return.  My previous employer's reimbursement rate was always at least a dime under the current IRS rate.  Cheapskate.

Quote from: Max Rockatansky on September 03, 2022, 07:47:51 PM
I'm a Federal employee, the amusement is our travel department hasn't given us new forms with the current mileage rate. 

In my past employment in the private world my mileage reimbursement rate was usually between .48-.52 cents on the mile circa 2010-2013.

This may have changed, but I'm pretty sure that Federal reimbursements (for Federal employees and Federally-funded projects) are based on an annual schedule that are locally adjusted (and not modified whenever the IRS business mileage rates change).  One should also keep in mind that the main purpose of the IRS business mileage rates is to collect taxes on those individuals who have very generous travel benefits.  The [Internal Revenue] Tax Code establishes the rules for the mileage rate so that the amount over that rate must be included as taxable income.  Max Rockatansky is correct, it's not a mandate for anyone (including Federal employees) to receive the maximum non-taxable rate allowed by IRS regulations.

Quote from: ZLoth on September 03, 2022, 06:49:08 PMThe point I'm making is that you shouldn't just consider "having a home paid off" as a primary factor in choosing a home, but having a home that you will be happy in.

I suspect you don't realize how right you are saying this.
Just keep in mind, "happy" is a highly variable criteria.
It doesn't necessarily means the same for different people. Someone may say that living in the house which is paid off makes them happy. Or fixing a broken thing makes them happy. Or having a piece of mind about all that stuff sitting in storage that is readily available for them.
To each their own!
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fcdn.shopify.com%2Fs%2Ffiles%2F1%2F0471%2F8211%2F9071%2Fproducts%2Fpcfi68_1200x1200.jpg&hash=62720e3367fc6d3fba721ad0b230d7b347845419)

Quote from: kalvado on September 05, 2022, 08:37:37 AM

Quote from: ZLoth on September 03, 2022, 06:49:08 PMThe point I'm making is that you shouldn't just consider "having a home paid off" as a primary factor in choosing a home, but having a home that you will be happy in.

I suspect you don't realize how right you are saying this.
Just keep in mind, "happy" is a highly variable criteria.
It doesn't necessarily means the same for different people. Someone may say that living in the house which is paid off makes them happy. Or fixing a broken thing makes them happy. Or having a piece of mind about all that stuff sitting in storage that is readily available for them.
To each their own!

Actually, when I was preparing to relocate from California to North Texas, I actually made a list of what I considered extremely important (single story,  good high speed internet, close to work), what was nice to have (four bedroom because my mother who was moving with me insisted on a guest bedroom), what is nice NOT to have (pool), and what is a dealbreaker (two story). My list as a never-married single guy with adult caregiver needs is going to be different from a younger family of four where a good school district and parks may play a more crucial factor. Furthermore, it must be affordable within one's budget, not "barely making it and hopefully, nothing major happens".

Where I lived in Sacramento County, it was, at times, considered extremely remote. My parents intended the home to be a temporary place when it was purchased in 1977, but we ended up living there for 41 years. The best I could do for Internet connectivity was ADSL at 15 Megabit down/3 Megabit up. One of the banes of my existence was the notorious Sunrise Bridge in Fair Oaks, CA (https://www.google.com/maps/place/Sunrise+Bridge/@38.634661,-121.2693545,19z/data=!4m13!1m7!3m6!1s0x809ad8571a60897b:0x9e9dfe26ef7e4c5e!2sFair+Oaks,+CA!3b1!8m2!3d38.6446264!4d-121.2721718!3m4!1s0x809add4c839f6597:0xa36dd94567289888!8m2!3d38.6335863!4d-121.2691605), which was notorious for being extremely congested, but for most of my working life there (over 25 years), I had to cross it to get to my job. The only thing that kept me there was inheriting the low property tax rate, but I wanted out of California (multiple reasons), and the stress of living in a corner of Sacramento county all factored in my home purchase decision at the beginning of 2019, and I was damn lucky to get the home that I wanted. In the 3½ years since I purchased my home in north Texas, the estimated value went up 50% based upon the average value across RedFin, Zillow, and Realtor. And, this was before the real estate markets markets went surreal.

The kicker? We know people who lived in the Sacramento/Roseville area who super-commuted to their jobs in the San Francisco Bay Area. That, on a good day, could be two hours in each direction, plus the higher wear-and-tear and insurance costs (not to mention the higher gas prices that California is known for). The problem is, the homes were affordable in Sacramento/Roseville, while the advertising for SF area homes was like this (From a Marketwatch article published April, 2016 (https://www.marketwatch.com/story/the-ridiculousness-of-san-francisco-real-estate-summed-up-in-one-billboard-2016-04-05):

(https://ei.marketwatch.com/Multimedia/2016/04/05/Photos/NS/MW-EJ447_CHMgvN_20160405113902_NS.jpg?uuid=859fc1ec-fb44-11e5-818a-0015c588dfa6)

Yup, it was a long reply, but I rather have the home that I have now with a modest outstanding mortgage if it means that I have a lifetime home where I am happy.

I get the disdain for the Bay Area super commute and rapid urbanization of the Sacramento area.  All the same, the impression I get from your posts regarding where you talk about moving to Texas is that you think that the entirety of California is unlivable and expensive urban hell hole.  I certainly thought similar when I worked remotely from Phoenix in the major Southern California cities.  Back in 2016 I took a transfer out to NAS Lemoore after I looked into the real estate market and found it to be actually more affordable to where I was living in Orlando.  That mortgage price I noted above in Fresno is about what I was paying for an apartment in Orlando. 

Quote from: Max Rockatansky on September 05, 2022, 01:52:20 PMI get the disdain for the Bay Area super commute and rapid urbanization of the Sacramento area.  All the same, the impression I get from your posts regarding where you talk about moving to Texas is that you think that the entirety of California is unlivable and expensive urban hell hole.

I said it before, and I'll say it again... the California that my family moved to in 1977 is not the California my mother and I escaped from at the end of 2018. There is a whole thread titled The California Dream Is Dying (https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=29815) about this. Sure, the weather is nice and the scenery is great, but what's the point in living in paradise if you can't afford to live there? You take a look at the gas price thread (https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=62.msg2767724#msg2767724), and I'm posting the Costco/Sam's Club prices in both north Texas and Sacramento where I lived/worked. The price difference is almost always $1.50 per gallon. The vehicle registration costs and cost of living (food, gas, housing costs, electricity) are much higher. Most of California's electricity is provided by PG&E (Pacific Gas and Electric), however, they are often referred to as Pacific Graft and Extortion. Their maintenance (or lack thereof) of the power lines, plus bad forest maintenance practices by the state of California, has led to some bad forest fires. One of them, the Camp Fire of November 2018, resulted in the worst air quality in Sacramento (over 300 AQI) of the entire time I lived there, and effectively wiped the town of Paradise off the map of California. Don't even get me started on that high speed "choo choo" which has turned into a monetary black home which has no hopes of breaking even, and we don't even have a completion date.

The big "bully" of California is the Los Angeles-Long Beach-Anaheim, CA Metro Area, and that area treats the rest of the state as "the big water straw". That MSA has a estimated combined population of 13,211,027 people, or 33.6% of the population of California (https://markholtz.info/msa-losangeles) . Only the states of Texas (28,635,442), Florida (21,216,924), and New York (19,514,849) have more people than this area. Los Angeles County alone is the most populated county in the United States (almost twice of #2 Cook County, Illinois at 5,169,517) and has 10,040,682 people, which makes up 25.4% of California's population. 41 states have less people than Los Angeles County. In addition, eighteen congressional districts are either partially or fully in Los Angeles County equaling that of the states of Illinois and Pennsylvania. Only the states of Texas, Florida, and New York have more congressional representatives. And 25% of the registered voters in California live in Los Angeles county. The "big sister" of California is the San Francisco-Oakland-Berkeley, CA Metro Area which has a estimated combined population of 4,709,220 people (https://markholtz.info/msa-sanfrancisco) (between #24 Alabama and #25-Louisiana), or 12.0% of the population of California. Combine that was Los Angeles, and we have a population of 17,946,602, or 45.5% of California's total population.

Here is the joker in all of this... the immediate previous homeowners moved to Irvine, CA, and put the bare minimum in maintaining the home. So, I have home improvement projects for the next several years.

So in summary, I'm correct that this at the root of it is just another thread about how you think Texas is better than California in every single way?  You moved to Texas because it fits your situation better, why hold on to such bitterness about something that is behind you?  I couldn't fathom acting like this about Michigan or Arizona changing to something untenable for me now that I've moved several times over. 

Quote from: Max Rockatansky on September 05, 2022, 09:32:49 PM
So in summary, I'm correct that this at the root of it is just another thread about how you think Texas is better than California in every single way?  You moved to Texas because it fits your situation better, why hold on to such bitterness about something that is behind you?  I couldn't fathom acting like about Michigan or Arizona changing to something untenable for me now that I've moved several time over. 

A lot of Texans are just like that. Having to deal with Texan exceptionalism wafting up over the border is one of the most obnoxious things one has to deal with living in Oklahoma (and is a big chunk of the reason why Oklahomans tend to dislike Texas). 

Quote from: Scott5114 on September 05, 2022, 09:41:19 PM

Quote from: Max Rockatansky on September 05, 2022, 09:32:49 PM
So in summary, I'm correct that this at the root of it is just another thread about how you think Texas is better than California in every single way?  You moved to Texas because it fits your situation better, why hold on to such bitterness about something that is behind you?  I couldn't fathom acting like about Michigan or Arizona changing to something untenable for me now that I've moved several time over. 

A lot of Texans are just like that. Having to deal with Texan exceptionalism wafting up over the border is one of the most obnoxious things one has to deal with living in Oklahoma (and is a big chunk of the reason why Oklahomans tend to dislike Texas).

It was certainly was not something I enjoyed when I was working in New Mexico or the oil towns of the western Texas.  The irony I found was that New Mexico was much more an actual match for what Texas Bravado claims the state to be. 

Quote from: ZLoth on September 05, 2022, 12:53:14 PM

Quote from: kalvado on September 05, 2022, 08:37:37 AM

Quote from: ZLoth on September 03, 2022, 06:49:08 PMThe point I'm making is that you shouldn't just consider "having a home paid off" as a primary factor in choosing a home, but having a home that you will be happy in.

I suspect you don't realize how right you are saying this.
Just keep in mind, "happy" is a highly variable criteria.
It doesn't necessarily means the same for different people. Someone may say that living in the house which is paid off makes them happy. Or fixing a broken thing makes them happy. Or having a piece of mind about all that stuff sitting in storage that is readily available for them.
To each their own!

Actually, when I was preparing to relocate from California to North Texas, I actually made a list of what I considered extremely important (single story,  good high speed internet, close to work), what was nice to have (four bedroom because my mother who was moving with me insisted on a guest bedroom), what is nice NOT to have (pool), and what is a dealbreaker (two story). My list as a never-married single guy with adult caregiver needs is going to be different from a younger family of four where a good school district and parks may play a more crucial factor. Furthermore, it must be affordable within one's budget, not "barely making it and hopefully, nothing major happens".

Where I lived in Sacramento County, it was, at times, considered extremely remote. My parents intended the home to be a temporary place when it was purchased in 1977, but we ended up living there for 41 years. The best I could do for Internet connectivity was ADSL at 15 Megabit down/3 Megabit up. One of the banes of my existence was the notorious Sunrise Bridge in Fair Oaks, CA (https://www.google.com/maps/place/Sunrise+Bridge/@38.634661,-121.2693545,19z/data=!4m13!1m7!3m6!1s0x809ad8571a60897b:0x9e9dfe26ef7e4c5e!2sFair+Oaks,+CA!3b1!8m2!3d38.6446264!4d-121.2721718!3m4!1s0x809add4c839f6597:0xa36dd94567289888!8m2!3d38.6335863!4d-121.2691605), which was notorious for being extremely congested, but for most of my working life there (over 25 years), I had to cross it to get to my job. The only thing that kept me there was inheriting the low property tax rate, but I wanted out of California (multiple reasons), and the stress of living in a corner of Sacramento county all factored in my home purchase decision at the beginning of 2019, and I was damn lucky to get the home that I wanted. In the 3½ years since I purchased my home in north Texas, the estimated value went up 50% based upon the average value across RedFin, Zillow, and Realtor. And, this was before the real estate markets markets went surreal.

The kicker? We know people who lived in the Sacramento/Roseville area who super-commuted to their jobs in the San Francisco Bay Area. That, on a good day, could be two hours in each direction, plus the higher wear-and-tear and insurance costs (not to mention the higher gas prices that California is known for). The problem is, the homes were affordable in Sacramento/Roseville, while the advertising for SF area homes was like this (From a Marketwatch article published April, 2016 (https://www.marketwatch.com/story/the-ridiculousness-of-san-francisco-real-estate-summed-up-in-one-billboard-2016-04-05):

(https://ei.marketwatch.com/Multimedia/2016/04/05/Photos/NS/MW-EJ447_CHMgvN_20160405113902_NS.jpg?uuid=859fc1ec-fb44-11e5-818a-0015c588dfa6)

Yup, it was a long reply, but I rather have the home that I have now with a modest outstanding mortgage if it means that I have a lifetime home where I am happy.

I know that pretty well here in Solano County, CA we have to house both Sacramento and Bay Area commuters at the same time. I know the Fairfield,Suisun City and Vacaville areas have been mentioned at one point for having "affordable housing" for households that commute to both Sacramento and San Francisco at the same time. But that is now having to deal with traffic going to both places at the same time on I-80.  But then again we have to wait 2-3 decades to find out when Texas have issues of unaffordable housing in Austin, Dallas, Houston, Fort Worth and San Antonio. I bet it will happen at some point and where cheapskates will go after Texas is uncertain for now.

Quote from: Scott5114 on September 05, 2022, 09:41:19 PM

Quote from: Max Rockatansky on September 05, 2022, 09:32:49 PM
So in summary, I'm correct that this at the root of it is just another thread about how you think Texas is better than California in every single way?  You moved to Texas because it fits your situation better, why hold on to such bitterness about something that is behind you?  I couldn't fathom acting like about Michigan or Arizona changing to something untenable for me now that I've moved several time over. 

A lot of Texans are just like that. Having to deal with Texan exceptionalism wafting up over the border is one of the most obnoxious things one has to deal with living in Oklahoma (and is a big chunk of the reason why Oklahomans tend to dislike Texas).

Ok California used to be the same as Texas at one point when we hyped up the California Dream but we have to wake up to reality and understand that things don't last forever and reforms will have to be at play.  I can see why Texas along with Arizona, Nevada, Tennessee, Georgia and North Carolina has an ax to grind with Ex-California Residents in that they don't want their state to be gentrified like San Francisco and San Jose went through.

Quote from: bing101 on September 06, 2022, 12:07:53 AM

Quote from: Scott5114 on September 05, 2022, 09:41:19 PM

Quote from: Max Rockatansky on September 05, 2022, 09:32:49 PM
So in summary, I'm correct that this at the root of it is just another thread about how you think Texas is better than California in every single way?  You moved to Texas because it fits your situation better, why hold on to such bitterness about something that is behind you?  I couldn't fathom acting like about Michigan or Arizona changing to something untenable for me now that I've moved several time over. 

A lot of Texans are just like that. Having to deal with Texan exceptionalism wafting up over the border is one of the most obnoxious things one has to deal with living in Oklahoma (and is a big chunk of the reason why Oklahomans tend to dislike Texas).

Ok California used to be the same as Texas at one point when we hyped up the California Dream but we have to wake up to reality and understand that does not last forever and reforms will have to be at play.  I can see why Texas along with Arizona, Nevada, Tennessee, Georgia and North Carolina has an ax to grind with Ex-California Residents in that they don't want their state to be gentrified like San Francisco and San Jose went through.

Michigan went through the downward cycle of decline when I was growing up.  The adults I was around seemingly were in denial a decline was in place for decades due to a dying economy (the auto industry).  I see a similar decline beginning in the major urban areas of California and a similar trend of denial.  The difference with California compared to Michigan is that it isn't beholden to a single economic driver.  There are certainly areas of California like the Central Valley and Central Coast which are beginning to boom. 

Let's not forget though, even in California there is precedent for boom and decline.  The northern parts of California once were dominate based off the fortunes of mining and logging, who even has living memory of those times now?  Nothing stays the same forever, the best any of us can do is find a place that makes us happy.  That may or may not be something static, for everyone that's a different thing.  Either way, I see zero need to hold bitterness about a place someone lived previously or hold antagonist views on how frugal someone may/may not be with their money.

Quote from: bing101 on September 06, 2022, 12:07:53 AM

Quote from: Scott5114 on September 05, 2022, 09:41:19 PM

Quote from: Max Rockatansky on September 05, 2022, 09:32:49 PM
So in summary, I'm correct that this at the root of it is just another thread about how you think Texas is better than California in every single way?  You moved to Texas because it fits your situation better, why hold on to such bitterness about something that is behind you?  I couldn't fathom acting like about Michigan or Arizona changing to something untenable for me now that I've moved several time over. 

A lot of Texans are just like that. Having to deal with Texan exceptionalism wafting up over the border is one of the most obnoxious things one has to deal with living in Oklahoma (and is a big chunk of the reason why Oklahomans tend to dislike Texas).

Ok California used to be the same as Texas at one point when we hyped up the California Dream but we have to wake up to reality and understand that does not last forever and reforms will have to be at play.  I can see why Texas along with Arizona, Nevada, Tennessee, Georgia and North Carolina has an ax to grind with Ex-California Residents in that they don't want their state to be gentrified like San Francisco and San Jose went through.

Texas has an ax to grind with the entire rest of the world because it's not Texas. It has nothing to do with rationality. They talk shit on Oklahoma too, and it's not like Oklahoma is anything but a small cheap Texas with an inferiority complex.

Quote from: Max Rockatansky on September 05, 2022, 09:32:49 PMSo in summary, I'm correct that this at the root of it is just another thread about how you think Texas is better than California in every single way?

No.

It is about the antics of frugal bordering on cheapskate people who take actions that are "penny wise, pound foolish", or who take the cheapest way out as a short-term solution, but it ends up being more expensive in the long run. We just went down this rabbit hole because of my criticism of people who take a home in the middle of nowhere just to say "I paid for it in CA$H", only to end up paying more because you have to drive long distances to shop, take the kids to school, and go to work, or the lack of services because you are in the middle of nowhere because of that choice, and then you complain about it.

Quote from: Max Rockatansky on September 05, 2022, 09:32:49 PMYou moved to Texas because it fits your situation better, why hold on to such bitterness about something that is behind you?

Because some of the "leaders" embrace the policies adopted by California and want to have the entire nation adopt those same problematic policies. You take a look at the top states for doing business, and Texas ranks near the top. Forbes (https://www.forbes.com/best-states-for-business/list/#tab:overall) ranks Texas as #2, while California is #31. CNBC (https://www.cnbc.com/2021/07/13/americas-top-states-for-business.html) ranks Texas as #4, but California as #33. In an extreme case, ChiefExecutive (https://chiefexecutive.net/texas-tops-2022-best-worst-states-for-business-survey-of-ceos/) ranks Texas as #1, while Illinois, New York, and California is ranked #48, #49, and #50. It should be noted that people are also fleeing Chicago, Illinois and New York City as well. And, you can take a look at this opinion video on why people are leaving California (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NMFk_i7GQPc), which is one of multiple videos with the theme "WTF happened to California"?

Guess which state my family moved away from in 1977. Ironically, upstate New York near Rose, NY which happened to be about 45 miles away from Rochester. Rochester used to be a great city as well.

Texas has already changed since I moved here 3½ years ago. The gold rush days of picking up a property cheap here is already over. I look at the value of my home, and I would not be able to afford it today. Just because Texas worked out for me doesn't mean it will work out for everyone, and I advise anyone to make sure to check out some other states as well. It just happened that my job relocated to north Texas. And, unfortunately, Austin is turning into California East. I don't want to turn Texas into California, I just want to live in peace as a Texan. Now, pass me to brisket and point me to Buc-ees.

You keep mentioning costs, but wages are higher in California than in Texas.

Quote from: ZLoth on September 06, 2022, 06:26:56 AM
You take a look at the top states for doing business, and Texas ranks near the top. Forbes (https://www.forbes.com/best-states-for-business/list/#tab:overall) ranks Texas as #2, while California is #31. CNBC (https://www.cnbc.com/2021/07/13/americas-top-states-for-business.html) ranks Texas as #4, but California as #33. In an extreme case, ChiefExecutive (https://chiefexecutive.net/texas-tops-2022-best-worst-states-for-business-survey-of-ceos/) ranks Texas as #1, while Illinois, New York, and California is ranked #48, #49, and #50.

Those rankings are for the corporate side, not the workers' side. They don't matter to most individuals.

Quote from: 1 on September 06, 2022, 06:35:39 AMYou keep mentioning costs, but wages are higher in California than in Texas.

Wages are higher in California.... because the cost of living is higher in California.

Quote from: 1 on September 06, 2022, 06:35:39 AM

Quote from: ZLoth on September 06, 2022, 06:26:56 AM
You take a look at the top states for doing business, and Texas ranks near the top. Forbes (https://www.forbes.com/best-states-for-business/list/#tab:overall) ranks Texas as #2, while California is #31. CNBC (https://www.cnbc.com/2021/07/13/americas-top-states-for-business.html) ranks Texas as #4, but California as #33. In an extreme case, ChiefExecutive (https://chiefexecutive.net/texas-tops-2022-best-worst-states-for-business-survey-of-ceos/) ranks Texas as #1, while Illinois, New York, and California is ranked #48, #49, and #50.

Those rankings are for the corporate side, not the workers' side. They don't matter to most individuals.

Yes, they do. Creating a friendly business environment creates employment for individuals. And, I feel the opportunities in the DFW area are better than they were in the Sacramento area.

Quote from: 1 on September 06, 2022, 06:35:39 AM
You keep mentioning costs, but wages are higher in California than in Texas.

Quote from: ZLoth on September 06, 2022, 06:26:56 AM
You take a look at the top states for doing business, and Texas ranks near the top. Forbes (https://www.forbes.com/best-states-for-business/list/#tab:overall) ranks Texas as #2, while California is #31. CNBC (https://www.cnbc.com/2021/07/13/americas-top-states-for-business.html) ranks Texas as #4, but California as #33. In an extreme case, ChiefExecutive (https://chiefexecutive.net/texas-tops-2022-best-worst-states-for-business-survey-of-ceos/) ranks Texas as #1, while Illinois, New York, and California is ranked #48, #49, and #50.

Those rankings are for the corporate side, not the workers' side. They don't matter to most individuals.

Think about it from the business perspective: if same product can be made in a state with $1M homes and in a state with $400k homes, where would end product be more competitive? That's not the only factor, apparently. NY is murdered by teacher's union, for example; not sure what the deal is with IL. But overall, the more money is spent on keeping things moving - the higher end price to the customer would be. 
Of course, that's not true for every business; local restaurants would have to be local no matter what (although there may be fewer of them at the end of the day), some businesses are locked in to customer locations. Global business, though, moves from California to Texas to China and further on, especially as workforce qualifications and available resources  cannot support keeping it in expensive location any further. 

Total aside, at the Philadelphia Meet there was Buc-ee's stickers being handed out given since it has become a meme for a lot of us in the road community.  I'm still amazed at how a handful of Freewayjim types have inspired so much dislike of a business as they have with Buc-ee's. 

Regarding moving, I'm presently on my third work stint in California and the first time working here.  I'm not a particular fan of everything that goes on here also politically.  All the same really life is what you make of it and it.  When it comes down to much of the political arena doesn't have the affect on day to day life that people tend to give it.

During the first two times I worked in California it was down south in the bigger cities.  I was offered transfer opportunities, but none of them came with relocation raises that made it worth it (I seem to recall asking 25% and only getting 10-15% counter offers).  With the current instance where I am now I got the increase I wanted, but I'm also in a way less urbanized area and didn't have anyone to compete with on the transfer.  I also had the opportunity to buy into real estate reasonably here, I was only looking to rent during the previous two stints. 

It feels odd sometimes that getting into a home when we did actually went exactly to plan, but sometimes things like that work out.  My usual stance on a work location is to stay 2-4 years and move on the next transfer.  Presently I'm on year 7 for current location and I don't anticipate transferring soon because of the cost of living associated with a having a largely static low cost mortgage.  Perhaps when another city presents itself that has the following we will consider moving:

-  An affordable real estate market like the one we bought into. 
-  A location that my wife can continue to use her four year degree and keep building on her current pension (worth noting that I wasn't married until I moved to California).
-  Has similar outdoor recreational access. 

In particular that last item was by far the worst things about Florida.  In Florida outdoor opportunities for things like hiking were plainly minimal at best.  Sure the cost of day to day goods was low, but what does that matter when you are so bored that it becomes borderline depressing?  Maybe it's just me, but the concept of moving somewhere just to sit around and never do anything to be a different type frugality. 

Quote from: kalvado on September 06, 2022, 07:17:47 AM

Quote from: 1 on September 06, 2022, 06:35:39 AM
You keep mentioning costs, but wages are higher in California than in Texas.

Quote from: ZLoth on September 06, 2022, 06:26:56 AM
You take a look at the top states for doing business, and Texas ranks near the top. Forbes (https://www.forbes.com/best-states-for-business/list/#tab:overall) ranks Texas as #2, while California is #31. CNBC (https://www.cnbc.com/2021/07/13/americas-top-states-for-business.html) ranks Texas as #4, but California as #33. In an extreme case, ChiefExecutive (https://chiefexecutive.net/texas-tops-2022-best-worst-states-for-business-survey-of-ceos/) ranks Texas as #1, while Illinois, New York, and California is ranked #48, #49, and #50.

Those rankings are for the corporate side, not the workers' side. They don't matter to most individuals.

Think about it from the business perspective: if same product can be made in a state with $1M homes and in a state with $400k homes, where would end product be more competitive? That's not the only factor, apparently. NY is murdered by teacher's union, for example;

Wut. :D

Quote from: ZLoth on September 06, 2022, 06:26:56 AM

Quote from: Max Rockatansky on September 05, 2022, 09:32:49 PMSo in summary, I'm correct that this at the root of it is just another thread about how you think Texas is better than California in every single way?

No.

Apparently, it's about how Texas used to be better than California in every single way.

That would explain why he didn't bring up Texas's more recent electricity fiasco, which killed anywhere from 200 to 700 people.

Quote from: Max Rockatansky on September 03, 2022, 07:47:51 PM

Quote from: wanderer2575 on September 03, 2022, 07:27:58 PM

Quote from: 1995hoo on September 03, 2022, 01:16:15 PM
Only 35¢ per mile? The current GSA rate, effective July 1, is 62.5¢ per mile (even recognizing gas prices have dropped these past few weeks).

Depends what you're looking at.  The standard mileage rate of 62.5¢ is intended to cover not only fuel but also vehicle maintenance and wear/tear.  The mileage rate for relocation (qualifying active military servicemembers) and medical, which covers only fuel, is only 22¢.

Quote from: Max Rockatansky on September 03, 2022, 02:01:25 PM
Amusingly my travel claim forms still display 58.5¢ per mile.

Generally your employer may reimburse any amount it wishes, up to the rate limit.  If they reimburse less, you can claim the difference as a business expense on your income tax return.  My previous employer's reimbursement rate was always at least a dime under the current IRS rate.  Cheapskate.

I'm a Federal employee, the amusement is our travel department hasn't given us new forms with the current mileage rate. 

In my past employment in the private world my mileage reimbursement rate was usually between .48-.52 cents on the mile circa 2010-2013. 

Your travel isn't filed electronically? There is a system called E2 for claiming government travel. You just input your dates, destination, mileage, and upload your hotel bill and it calculates everything.

Ironically, as I was reading this topic, I got an email that the minimum government rate for hotels is going up from $96 to $98 on 10/1.

Quote from: Rothman on September 06, 2022, 08:54:07 AM

Quote from: kalvado on September 06, 2022, 07:17:47 AM

Quote from: 1 on September 06, 2022, 06:35:39 AM
You keep mentioning costs, but wages are higher in California than in Texas.

Quote from: ZLoth on September 06, 2022, 06:26:56 AM
You take a look at the top states for doing business, and Texas ranks near the top. Forbes (https://www.forbes.com/best-states-for-business/list/#tab:overall) ranks Texas as #2, while California is #31. CNBC (https://www.cnbc.com/2021/07/13/americas-top-states-for-business.html) ranks Texas as #4, but California as #33. In an extreme case, ChiefExecutive (https://chiefexecutive.net/texas-tops-2022-best-worst-states-for-business-survey-of-ceos/) ranks Texas as #1, while Illinois, New York, and California is ranked #48, #49, and #50.

Those rankings are for the corporate side, not the workers' side. They don't matter to most individuals.

Think about it from the business perspective: if same product can be made in a state with $1M homes and in a state with $400k homes, where would end product be more competitive? That's not the only factor, apparently. NY is murdered by teacher's union, for example;

Wut. :D

You never realized what the cost of K-12 in NY is, right?

There's frequently a cost to living in low cost-of-living areas.  Certain jobs may not be available (although that may be less of a concern given the greater acceptance, for now, of WFH), fewer desirable recreational activities may be available, the weather may suck, school quality may be crap, culture may be repressive, etc.

I tend to make big decisions with essentially cost-benefit analyses.   However, some of the costs and benefits that need to be considered don't have dollar signs attached.  Evaluating those will depend on you / your family's interests, needs, and preferences.

Living in Connecticut is financially expensive (although not as expensive as a few other places).  However, accepting that expense opens the door to access to multiple potential jobs for my profession, easy access to a variety of recreational activities, a climate I find more comfortable than many other places, etc., etc., etc.

My wife and I have looked at moving someplace less expensive, but the intangible costs of things that we would give up don't have me terribly excited about such a move.

Quote from: CtrlAltDel on September 06, 2022, 08:59:56 AM

Quote from: ZLoth on September 06, 2022, 06:26:56 AM

Quote from: Max Rockatansky on September 05, 2022, 09:32:49 PMSo in summary, I'm correct that this at the root of it is just another thread about how you think Texas is better than California in every single way?

No.

Apparently, it's about how Texas used to be better than California in every single way.

That would explain why he didn't bring up Texas's more recent electricity fiasco, which killed anywhere from 200 to 700 people.

And I remember NE electricity fiasco of 2003... And controlled power outages in CA. Which gives?

Quote from: NWI_Irish96 on September 06, 2022, 09:08:28 AM

Quote from: Max Rockatansky on September 03, 2022, 07:47:51 PM

Quote from: wanderer2575 on September 03, 2022, 07:27:58 PM

Quote from: 1995hoo on September 03, 2022, 01:16:15 PM
Only 35¢ per mile? The current GSA rate, effective July 1, is 62.5¢ per mile (even recognizing gas prices have dropped these past few weeks).

Depends what you're looking at.  The standard mileage rate of 62.5¢ is intended to cover not only fuel but also vehicle maintenance and wear/tear.  The mileage rate for relocation (qualifying active military servicemembers) and medical, which covers only fuel, is only 22¢.

Quote from: Max Rockatansky on September 03, 2022, 02:01:25 PM
Amusingly my travel claim forms still display 58.5¢ per mile.

Generally your employer may reimburse any amount it wishes, up to the rate limit.  If they reimburse less, you can claim the difference as a business expense on your income tax return.  My previous employer's reimbursement rate was always at least a dime under the current IRS rate.  Cheapskate.

I'm a Federal employee, the amusement is our travel department hasn't given us new forms with the current mileage rate. 

In my past employment in the private world my mileage reimbursement rate was usually between .48-.52 cents on the mile circa 2010-2013. 

Your travel isn't filed electronically? There is a system called E2 for claiming government travel. You just input your dates, destination, mileage, and upload your hotel bill and it calculates everything.

Ironically, as I was reading this topic, I got an email that the minimum government rate for hotels is going up from $96 to $98 on 10/1.

I'm at an NF agency, generally we lag behind everyone on being to date on things like that.  Our Travel Branch still hasn't gotten me the travel card I was approved for two months ago.

Quote from: Max Rockatansky on September 06, 2022, 12:18:48 AM

Quote from: bing101 on September 06, 2022, 12:07:53 AM

Quote from: Scott5114 on September 05, 2022, 09:41:19 PM

Quote from: Max Rockatansky on September 05, 2022, 09:32:49 PM
So in summary, I'm correct that this at the root of it is just another thread about how you think Texas is better than California in every single way?  You moved to Texas because it fits your situation better, why hold on to such bitterness about something that is behind you?  I couldn't fathom acting like about Michigan or Arizona changing to something untenable for me now that I've moved several time over. 

A lot of Texans are just like that. Having to deal with Texan exceptionalism wafting up over the border is one of the most obnoxious things one has to deal with living in Oklahoma (and is a big chunk of the reason why Oklahomans tend to dislike Texas).

Ok California used to be the same as Texas at one point when we hyped up the California Dream but we have to wake up to reality and understand that does not last forever and reforms will have to be at play.  I can see why Texas along with Arizona, Nevada, Tennessee, Georgia and North Carolina has an ax to grind with Ex-California Residents in that they don't want their state to be gentrified like San Francisco and San Jose went through.

Michigan went through the downward cycle of decline when I was growing up.  The adults I was around seemingly were in denial a decline was in place for decades due to a dying economy (the auto industry).  I see a similar decline beginning in the major urban areas of California and a similar trend of denial.  The difference with California compared to Michigan is that it isn't beholden to a single economic driver.  There are certainly areas of California like the Central Valley and Central Coast which are beginning to boom. 

Let's not forget though, even in California there is precedent for boom and decline.  The northern parts of California once were dominate based off the fortunes of mining and logging, who even has living memory of those times now?  Nothing stays the same forever, the best any of us can do is find a place that makes us happy.  That may or may not be something static, for everyone that's a different thing.  Either way, I see zero need to hold bitterness about a place someone lived previously or hold antagonist views on how frugal someone may/may not be with their money.

True there are some cities in California that did go Bankrupt in the 2008 recession like Vallejo ,CA it's because it was once known for Ship Building on Mare Island at one time. In recent years Vallejo is known as a place that attracts people that cannot afford a home in San Francisco, Oakland and Berkeley but want to be near their jobs in the city it was at one time viewed as being a cheapskate. Also Vallejo is known for being a stand in for San Francisco in movie scenes to get around the costs of filming in San Francisco.  The other industry in Vallejo is assembling Rail parts on Mare Island at the Alstom factory. In this case Alstom assembles light rail for Los Angeles Metro.

https://www.visitvallejo.com/film-office/13-reasons-why-film-locations-in-vallejo-ca (https://www.visitvallejo.com/film-office/13-reasons-why-film-locations-in-vallejo-ca)
https://www.businessinsider.com/photos-of-vallejo-california-what-its-like-2017-7 (https://www.businessinsider.com/photos-of-vallejo-california-what-its-like-2017-7)
https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/economy/vallejo-calif-once-bankrupt-is-now-a-model-for-cities-in-an-age-of-austerity/2012/05/23/gJQAjLKglU_story.html (https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/economy/vallejo-calif-once-bankrupt-is-now-a-model-for-cities-in-an-age-of-austerity/2012/05/23/gJQAjLKglU_story.html)

https://solanopublictransitfans.neocities.org/
Also Vacaville has been stepping up to attract Biotech Companies to the area as part of the battle to keep jobs from moving to other states and to offset jobs losses from other industries. This is a three part ploy to get attention from  investors in the Bay Area, get attention from lobbyists in Sacramento and researchers from UC Davis. All of this is that there are parts of California that are responding to the downturn in response to jobs moving to Texas.

https://www.davisvanguard.org/2021/07/vacaville-lands-a-major-bay-area-biotech-company/ (https://www.davisvanguard.org/2021/07/vacaville-lands-a-major-bay-area-biotech-company/)
https://solanoedc.org/news/vacaville-stepping-up-its-biotech-attraction-and-retention-efforts (https://solanoedc.org/news/vacaville-stepping-up-its-biotech-attraction-and-retention-efforts)
https://www.thereporter.com/2021/07/09/agenus-purchases-site-in-vacaville-for-biomanufacturing-center/ (https://www.thereporter.com/2021/07/09/agenus-purchases-site-in-vacaville-for-biomanufacturing-center/)
The point is that there are parts of California that are not in denial of a downturn. It's those that went through bankruptcies in the recent past like Vallejo. Note Vacaville was also affected due to the effects of Vallejo going bankrupt in 2008 and are in the same county as Vallejo, CA are.

It's odd how the epicenter of recent recessions the 2008 edition and the 2020 COVID-19 shutdown due to quarantine operations at Travis Air Force Base originated in Solano County, CA and that's what sparked some people to leave the state of California in both cases. This is where Texas end up having an Ax to grind on California.


https://www.cbsnews.com/sacramento/news/travis-afb-4-coronavirus-cases/ (https://www.cbsnews.com/sacramento/news/travis-afb-4-coronavirus-cases/)

Quote from: CtrlAltDel on September 06, 2022, 08:59:56 AMApparently, it's about how Texas used to be better than California in every single way.

I never claimed that Texas is better in every single way, only that I'm happier here than in California.

Quote from: CtrlAltDel on September 06, 2022, 08:59:56 AMThat would explain why he didn't bring up Texas's more recent electricity fiasco, which killed anywhere from 200 to 700 people.

Are you talking about the February, 2021 extreme weather event where it snowed in Houston as well as the DFW area (where the expected snowfall is a "dusting" in the northern part once a year.... maybe), but the only snowplows were at the airport? That Dallas hit the third lowest recorded low on record? Or how most of the Texas infrastructure is built for high temperatures, high winds, and occasional "rocks from the sky" (that's large-sized hail), not "Wisconsin-type winter temperatures"? Should I also mention that I'm currently paying 10.91¢/kWh which, although a increase from last years rate of 8.67¢/kWh? SoCal Edison (https://www.sce.com/residential/rates/Standard-Residential-Rate-Plan) charges 28¢/kWh for their tier 1 service, while San Diego Gas and Electric (https://www.sdge.com/total-electric-rates) charges 39.295¢/kWh.

Should I also mention that California wants to ban gas cars by 2035 (https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2022/09/03/california-gas-car-ban-17-states-follow/7987248001/), but turns around and says "Don't charge your electric vehicles during this heat wave, the electric system is strained" (https://www.nytimes.com/2022/09/01/us/california-heat-wave-flex-alert-ac-ev-charging.html)?

Quote from: kalvado on September 06, 2022, 09:43:09 AM

Quote from: Rothman on September 06, 2022, 08:54:07 AM

Quote from: kalvado on September 06, 2022, 07:17:47 AM

Quote from: 1 on September 06, 2022, 06:35:39 AM
You keep mentioning costs, but wages are higher in California than in Texas.

Quote from: ZLoth on September 06, 2022, 06:26:56 AM
You take a look at the top states for doing business, and Texas ranks near the top. Forbes (https://www.forbes.com/best-states-for-business/list/#tab:overall) ranks Texas as #2, while California is #31. CNBC (https://www.cnbc.com/2021/07/13/americas-top-states-for-business.html) ranks Texas as #4, but California as #33. In an extreme case, ChiefExecutive (https://chiefexecutive.net/texas-tops-2022-best-worst-states-for-business-survey-of-ceos/) ranks Texas as #1, while Illinois, New York, and California is ranked #48, #49, and #50.

Those rankings are for the corporate side, not the workers' side. They don't matter to most individuals.

Think about it from the business perspective: if same product can be made in a state with $1M homes and in a state with $400k homes, where would end product be more competitive? That's not the only factor, apparently. NY is murdered by teacher's union, for example;

Wut. :D

You never realized what the cost of K-12 in NY is, right?

You're saying the teachers in NY should be paid less because unions advocate for higher wages...when there's a teacher shortage?

Quote from: ZLoth on September 06, 2022, 06:26:56 AM
Guess which state my family moved away from in 1977. Ironically, upstate New York near Rose, NY which happened to be about 45 miles away from Rochester. Rochester used to be a great city as well.

Hey, it still is a great city (I wouldn't blame anyone for leaving Rose though) :-P

Quote from: Rothman on September 06, 2022, 10:52:28 AM

Quote from: kalvado on September 06, 2022, 09:43:09 AM

Quote from: Rothman on September 06, 2022, 08:54:07 AM

Quote from: kalvado on September 06, 2022, 07:17:47 AM

Quote from: 1 on September 06, 2022, 06:35:39 AM
You keep mentioning costs, but wages are higher in California than in Texas.

Quote from: ZLoth on September 06, 2022, 06:26:56 AM
You take a look at the top states for doing business, and Texas ranks near the top. Forbes (https://www.forbes.com/best-states-for-business/list/#tab:overall) ranks Texas as #2, while California is #31. CNBC (https://www.cnbc.com/2021/07/13/americas-top-states-for-business.html) ranks Texas as #4, but California as #33. In an extreme case, ChiefExecutive (https://chiefexecutive.net/texas-tops-2022-best-worst-states-for-business-survey-of-ceos/) ranks Texas as #1, while Illinois, New York, and California is ranked #48, #49, and #50.

Those rankings are for the corporate side, not the workers' side. They don't matter to most individuals.

Think about it from the business perspective: if same product can be made in a state with $1M homes and in a state with $400k homes, where would end product be more competitive? That's not the only factor, apparently. NY is murdered by teacher's union, for example;

Wut. :D

You never realized what the cost of K-12 in NY is, right?

You're saying the teachers in NY should be paid less because unions advocate for higher wages...when there's a teacher shortage?

I am saying that NY is top 1 in K-12 per-student spending; 20% more than CT (second place) and almost 2x US average.  With graduation rates significantly below national average, if you will...

Quote from: kalvado on September 06, 2022, 10:58:17 AM

Quote from: Rothman on September 06, 2022, 10:52:28 AM

Quote from: kalvado on September 06, 2022, 09:43:09 AM

Quote from: Rothman on September 06, 2022, 08:54:07 AM

Quote from: kalvado on September 06, 2022, 07:17:47 AM

Quote from: 1 on September 06, 2022, 06:35:39 AM
You keep mentioning costs, but wages are higher in California than in Texas.

Quote from: ZLoth on September 06, 2022, 06:26:56 AM
You take a look at the top states for doing business, and Texas ranks near the top. Forbes (https://www.forbes.com/best-states-for-business/list/#tab:overall) ranks Texas as #2, while California is #31. CNBC (https://www.cnbc.com/2021/07/13/americas-top-states-for-business.html) ranks Texas as #4, but California as #33. In an extreme case, ChiefExecutive (https://chiefexecutive.net/texas-tops-2022-best-worst-states-for-business-survey-of-ceos/) ranks Texas as #1, while Illinois, New York, and California is ranked #48, #49, and #50.

Those rankings are for the corporate side, not the workers' side. They don't matter to most individuals.

Think about it from the business perspective: if same product can be made in a state with $1M homes and in a state with $400k homes, where would end product be more competitive? That's not the only factor, apparently. NY is murdered by teacher's union, for example;

Wut. :D

You never realized what the cost of K-12 in NY is, right?

You're saying the teachers in NY should be paid less because unions advocate for higher wages...when there's a teacher shortage?

I am saying that NY is top 1 in K-12 per-student spending; 20% more than CT (second place) and almost 2x US average.  With graduation rates significantly below national average, if you will...

Right, so your solution would be to cut costs without consideration of the varied cost of living across the state (Westchester vs. Malone).

ETA:  Also have to wonder about the quality of education.  Take Utah, where almost everyone graduates from high school, but the content of their curriculum is not on the same level as anywhere in New England.

(Of course, quality varied greatly in NY, too)

Quote from: Rothman on September 06, 2022, 11:01:38 AM

Quote from: kalvado on September 06, 2022, 10:58:17 AM

Quote from: Rothman on September 06, 2022, 10:52:28 AM

Quote from: kalvado on September 06, 2022, 09:43:09 AM

Quote from: Rothman on September 06, 2022, 08:54:07 AM

Quote from: kalvado on September 06, 2022, 07:17:47 AM

Quote from: 1 on September 06, 2022, 06:35:39 AM
You keep mentioning costs, but wages are higher in California than in Texas.

Quote from: ZLoth on September 06, 2022, 06:26:56 AM
You take a look at the top states for doing business, and Texas ranks near the top. Forbes (https://www.forbes.com/best-states-for-business/list/#tab:overall) ranks Texas as #2, while California is #31. CNBC (https://www.cnbc.com/2021/07/13/americas-top-states-for-business.html) ranks Texas as #4, but California as #33. In an extreme case, ChiefExecutive (https://chiefexecutive.net/texas-tops-2022-best-worst-states-for-business-survey-of-ceos/) ranks Texas as #1, while Illinois, New York, and California is ranked #48, #49, and #50.

Those rankings are for the corporate side, not the workers' side. They don't matter to most individuals.

Think about it from the business perspective: if same product can be made in a state with $1M homes and in a state with $400k homes, where would end product be more competitive? That's not the only factor, apparently. NY is murdered by teacher's union, for example;

Wut. :D

You never realized what the cost of K-12 in NY is, right?

You're saying the teachers in NY should be paid less because unions advocate for higher wages...when there's a teacher shortage?

I am saying that NY is top 1 in K-12 per-student spending; 20% more than CT (second place) and almost 2x US average.  With graduation rates significantly below national average, if you will...

Right, so your solution would be to cut costs without consideration of the varied cost of living across the state (Westchester vs. Malone).

You don't need to be a chef to say that the meal is spoiled. Same here - I am neither a high school teacher nor I sit on BOCES board. What I see is a problem with too much money being  spent inefficiently. What I see as well is a very  strong union opposing any changes other than another raise.
It is probably not about paychecks per se, it may very well be about numerous government mandates used to patch the system and protections for those who shouldn't be protected. (this is how to say "NY" and "union" without saying those words!) 

Having electricity prices too low will just encourage wasting electricity, something California is trying to avoid but Texas doesn't care about. You are aware of global warming, right?

Quote from: 1 on September 06, 2022, 11:27:36 AM
Having electricity prices too low will just encourage wasting electricity, something California is trying to avoid but Texas doesn't care about. You are aware of global warming, right?

There is some sense in higher prices pushing for more savings; but that is also a handicap for certain businesses where energy costs are significant. Think heavy industry, big data, AI... Water desalination, which may become make-it or break-it for CA...

Oh, and by the way. It is no longer "global warming". It is "climate change".

Quote from: kalvado on September 06, 2022, 11:41:24 AM

Quote from: 1 on September 06, 2022, 11:27:36 AM
Having electricity prices too low will just encourage wasting electricity, something California is trying to avoid but Texas doesn't care about. You are aware of global warming, right?

There is some sense in higher prices pushing for more savings; but that is also a handicap for certain businesses where energy costs are significant. Think heavy industry, big data, AI... Water desalination, which may become make-it or break-it for CA...

Oh, and by the way. It is no longer "global warming". It is "climate change".

Worth noting, my peak PG&E bill usually is in August and usually is a tick below $300 dollars.  July is the only other consistent month which tops $220 for electricity.  I kept my house at the same temperature in Scottsdale but I was breaking $400 easily for electricity from the Salt River Project a decade ago (which is probably $500 easily now factoring inflation).

Referencing the 2035 EV mandate cited above, I agree the situation doesn't look optimal for California being able to accommodate.  Canyon Diablo is probably going to have a delayed shuttering the best plans the state has for additional capacity is large wind farm concept.  I find that to be an odd contradiction, but taking the last Nuclear Generation capacity out of the grid doesn't seem short term feasible. 

Something interesting I've observed as a California resident that surprised me is the cost of water and how cheap it is.  In Arizona water was super expensive, even if you didn't have a manicured grassy lawn.

Quote from: MikeTheActuary on September 06, 2022, 09:44:48 AM
There's frequently a cost to living in low cost-of-living areas.  Certain jobs may not be available (although that may be less of a concern given the greater acceptance, for now, of WFH), fewer desirable recreational activities may be available, the weather may suck, school quality may be crap, culture may be repressive, etc.

I tend to make big decisions with essentially cost-benefit analyses.   However, some of the costs and benefits that need to be considered don't have dollar signs attached.  Evaluating those will depend on you / your family's interests, needs, and preferences.

Living in Connecticut is financially expensive (although not as expensive as a few other places).  However, accepting that expense opens the door to access to multiple potential jobs for my profession, easy access to a variety of recreational activities, a climate I find more comfortable than many other places, etc., etc., etc.

My wife and I have looked at moving someplace less expensive, but the intangible costs of things that we would give up don't have me terribly excited about such a move.

Plus the tax burden can be shifted, other costs can be higher, more fees, etc.  Sure, your income/school/sales taxes may be low or non-existent, but you're probably paying more in fees, private school (whereas public school is just fine in suburban districts in high tax NY), etc.  Case in point: car registration is fairly cheap here in NY (just ~$55 every other year for my Civic), but in several "low tax" states, that same registration could cost hundreds of dollars annually.

Quote from: Max Rockatansky on September 06, 2022, 11:59:03 AM
Something interesting I've observed as a California resident that surprised me is the cost of water and how cheap it is.  In Arizona water was super expensive, even if you didn't have a manicured grassy lawn.

I may remember it wrong, but my impression was this is due to CA being very bully during Colorado River negotiations. They basically got the best terms for water - for amount and availability. They will have to evacuate Phoenix and Vegas before CA gets it allocation cut.

Quote from: kalvado on September 06, 2022, 12:30:31 PM

Quote from: Max Rockatansky on September 06, 2022, 11:59:03 AM
Something interesting I've observed as a California resident that surprised me is the cost of water and how cheap it is.  In Arizona water was super expensive, even if you didn't have a manicured grassy lawn.

I may remember it wrong, but my impression was this is due to CA being very bully during Colorado River negotiations. They basically got the best terms for water - for amount and availability. They will have to evacuate Phoenix and Vegas before CA gets it allocation cut.

Yes, if I recall correctly Nevada only gets 4% of the Colorado River Watershed allotment.  A good chunk of the California share goes to Ag projects out in Imperial Valley.  I seem to recall the water rights from the Colorado being largely predicated off of population of the states involved in the 1930s. 

Locally the water supply is coming more from the Sierra Nevada Mountains via snowmelt and distribution via the California Aqueduct or related systems.  But the again, San Joaquin Valley is semi-arid for that very reason compared to the actual portion of the Sonoran Desert which is Imperial Valley.

Quote from: ZLoth on September 06, 2022, 06:48:50 AM

Quote from: 1 on September 06, 2022, 06:35:39 AMYou keep mentioning costs, but wages are higher in California than in Texas.

Wages are higher in California.... because the cost of living is higher in California.

Quote from: 1 on September 06, 2022, 06:35:39 AM

Quote from: ZLoth on September 06, 2022, 06:26:56 AM
You take a look at the top states for doing business, and Texas ranks near the top. Forbes (https://www.forbes.com/best-states-for-business/list/#tab:overall) ranks Texas as #2, while California is #31. CNBC (https://www.cnbc.com/2021/07/13/americas-top-states-for-business.html) ranks Texas as #4, but California as #33. In an extreme case, ChiefExecutive (https://chiefexecutive.net/texas-tops-2022-best-worst-states-for-business-survey-of-ceos/) ranks Texas as #1, while Illinois, New York, and California is ranked #48, #49, and #50.

Those rankings are for the corporate side, not the workers' side. They don't matter to most individuals.

Yes, they do. Creating a friendly business environment creates employment for individuals. And, I feel the opportunities in the DFW area are better than they were in the Sacramento area.

Mind explaining which industries do well in Texas than California? The energy sector, defense contractors and Big Tech are factors that Texas favors OK then.

Biotech, Pharmaceutical industry, "Green Jobs" and legalized pot, Venture Capital sectors are ones that favor California then.

I see this as people claiming to be Frugal and Cheapskates.



They are people from the samples I seen ask questions about retiring at early ages. Well in some industries that could be true but for people who had to go to graduate school or majored in Biology and had a postdoc or MD along the way retiring early is out of the question and not likely.

Living in Kansas, I have to smile as I see people debate the relative affordabilities of California, Texas, New York, and Connecticut.

Quote from: kalvado on September 06, 2022, 11:10:26 AM

Quote from: Rothman on September 06, 2022, 11:01:38 AM

Quote from: kalvado on September 06, 2022, 10:58:17 AM

Quote from: Rothman on September 06, 2022, 10:52:28 AM

Quote from: kalvado on September 06, 2022, 09:43:09 AM

Quote from: Rothman on September 06, 2022, 08:54:07 AM

Quote from: kalvado on September 06, 2022, 07:17:47 AM

Quote from: 1 on September 06, 2022, 06:35:39 AM
You keep mentioning costs, but wages are higher in California than in Texas.

Quote from: ZLoth on September 06, 2022, 06:26:56 AM
You take a look at the top states for doing business, and Texas ranks near the top. Forbes (https://www.forbes.com/best-states-for-business/list/#tab:overall) ranks Texas as #2, while California is #31. CNBC (https://www.cnbc.com/2021/07/13/americas-top-states-for-business.html) ranks Texas as #4, but California as #33. In an extreme case, ChiefExecutive (https://chiefexecutive.net/texas-tops-2022-best-worst-states-for-business-survey-of-ceos/) ranks Texas as #1, while Illinois, New York, and California is ranked #48, #49, and #50.

Those rankings are for the corporate side, not the workers' side. They don't matter to most individuals.

Think about it from the business perspective: if same product can be made in a state with $1M homes and in a state with $400k homes, where would end product be more competitive? That's not the only factor, apparently. NY is murdered by teacher's union, for example;

Wut. :D

You never realized what the cost of K-12 in NY is, right?

You're saying the teachers in NY should be paid less because unions advocate for higher wages...when there's a teacher shortage?

I am saying that NY is top 1 in K-12 per-student spending; 20% more than CT (second place) and almost 2x US average.  With graduation rates significantly below national average, if you will...

Right, so your solution would be to cut costs without consideration of the varied cost of living across the state (Westchester vs. Malone).

You don't need to be a chef to say that the meal is spoiled. Same here - I am neither a high school teacher nor I sit on BOCES board. What I see is a problem with too much money being  spent inefficiently. What I see as well is a very  strong union opposing any changes other than another raise.
It is probably not about paychecks per se, it may very well be about numerous government mandates used to patch the system and protections for those who shouldn't be protected. (this is how to say "NY" and "union" without saying those words!)

Which changes would increase the graduation rate that the union opposes?

Thank goodness for a strong union for keeping governors from making disastrous decisions that would make the situation even worse.

Quote from: kalvado on September 05, 2022, 08:37:37 AM

(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fcdn.shopify.com%2Fs%2Ffiles%2F1%2F0471%2F8211%2F9071%2Fproducts%2Fpcfi68_1200x1200.jpg&hash=62720e3367fc6d3fba721ad0b230d7b347845419)

Next on This Old House!

Mike

Quote from: 1 on September 06, 2022, 11:27:36 AM
Having electricity prices too low will just encourage wasting electricity, something California is trying to avoid but Texas doesn't care about. You are aware of global warming, right?

Definitely! We've got to do EVERYTHING that we can to head off that looming new Global Ice Age!!!

:-o

Mike

Quote from: Rothman on September 06, 2022, 01:59:37 PM
Which changes would increase the graduation rate that the union opposes?
Thank goodness for a strong union for keeping governors from making disastrous decisions that would make the situation even worse.

As far as I understand, seniority based employment - as opposed to merit based - is one of the big things. Younger teachers were kicked out and would not return.
https://tntp.org/news-and-press/view/new-yorks-outdated-tenure-laws

Any objective evaluation - although that is a tough issue by itself - is another one:
https://www.nysut.org/members/member-guide/appr

That is not the key financial issue; just some examples of why union protecting membes first doesn't necessarily acts in the interest of students and general public. 

Quote from: kalvado on September 06, 2022, 02:15:52 PM

Quote from: Rothman on September 06, 2022, 01:59:37 PM
Which changes would increase the graduation rate that the union opposes?
Thank goodness for a strong union for keeping governors from making disastrous decisions that would make the situation even worse.

As far as I understand, seniority based employment - as opposed to merit based - is one of the big things. Younger teachers were kicked out and would not return.
https://tntp.org/news-and-press/view/new-yorks-outdated-tenure-laws

Any objective evaluation - although that is a tough issue by itself - is another one:
https://www.nysut.org/members/member-guide/appr

That is not the key financial issue; just some examples of why union protecting membes first doesn't necessarily acts in the interest of students and general public.

There are many, many reasons why FDR and George Meany *strongly* opposed that creation of public/government employee unions.

:banghead:

Mike

My wife and I don't even have a credit card.

Quote from: mgk920 on September 06, 2022, 02:40:18 PM

Quote from: kalvado on September 06, 2022, 02:15:52 PM

Quote from: Rothman on September 06, 2022, 01:59:37 PM
Which changes would increase the graduation rate that the union opposes?
Thank goodness for a strong union for keeping governors from making disastrous decisions that would make the situation even worse.

As far as I understand, seniority based employment - as opposed to merit based - is one of the big things. Younger teachers were kicked out and would not return.
https://tntp.org/news-and-press/view/new-yorks-outdated-tenure-laws

Any objective evaluation - although that is a tough issue by itself - is another one:
https://www.nysut.org/members/member-guide/appr

That is not the key financial issue; just some examples of why union protecting membes first doesn't necessarily acts in the interest of students and general public.

There are many, many reasons why FDR and George Meany *strongly* opposed that creation of public/government employee unions.

:banghead:

Mike

Pfft.  I can agree on the tenure program.  My kids had a couple of dud teachers...then again, what student doesn't?

But, like NYSUT says, they are for evaluations in that link you provided.

However, it's not clear how those factor into graduation rates.

Finally, if you're jealous of union benefits, get your own.  No need to tear down everyone else to your level.

Quote from: Rothman on September 06, 2022, 04:44:06 PM

Quote from: mgk920 on September 06, 2022, 02:40:18 PM

Quote from: kalvado on September 06, 2022, 02:15:52 PM

Quote from: Rothman on September 06, 2022, 01:59:37 PM
Which changes would increase the graduation rate that the union opposes?
Thank goodness for a strong union for keeping governors from making disastrous decisions that would make the situation even worse.

As far as I understand, seniority based employment - as opposed to merit based - is one of the big things. Younger teachers were kicked out and would not return.
https://tntp.org/news-and-press/view/new-yorks-outdated-tenure-laws

Any objective evaluation - although that is a tough issue by itself - is another one:
https://www.nysut.org/members/member-guide/appr

That is not the key financial issue; just some examples of why union protecting membes first doesn't necessarily acts in the interest of students and general public.

There are many, many reasons why FDR and George Meany *strongly* opposed that creation of public/government employee unions.

:banghead:

Mike

Pfft.  I can agree on the tenure program.  My kids had a couple of dud teachers...then again, what student doesn't?

But, like NYSUT says, they are for evaluations in that link you provided.

However, it's not clear how those factor into graduation rates.

Finally, if you're jealous of union benefits, get your own.  No need to tear down everyone else to your level.

Well, one thing you may or may not realize, school education is VERY EXPENSIVE. It makes total sense to look at costs and deliverables. NY fails on both.
How expensive you may ask? right now, NYS public schools spend $24k per student per year - so by the end of high school (with diploma or not) it is $300k total per kid. Think about it as a loan, similar to college loan, we both are paying off from our taxes. In case you think college loans are expensive....
So if you plan to work for 36 years (3x12), it is currently $8k/year for you or me.  Compared to about $1200/working adult spending of NYSDOT
I would say this is pretty serious amount of money, and at a first glance that spending is inefficient. At a second glance, it is very inefficient....

Quote from: kalvado on September 06, 2022, 05:27:11 PM

Quote from: Rothman on September 06, 2022, 04:44:06 PM

Quote from: mgk920 on September 06, 2022, 02:40:18 PM

Quote from: kalvado on September 06, 2022, 02:15:52 PM

Quote from: Rothman on September 06, 2022, 01:59:37 PM
Which changes would increase the graduation rate that the union opposes?
Thank goodness for a strong union for keeping governors from making disastrous decisions that would make the situation even worse.

As far as I understand, seniority based employment - as opposed to merit based - is one of the big things. Younger teachers were kicked out and would not return.
https://tntp.org/news-and-press/view/new-yorks-outdated-tenure-laws

Any objective evaluation - although that is a tough issue by itself - is another one:
https://www.nysut.org/members/member-guide/appr

That is not the key financial issue; just some examples of why union protecting membes first doesn't necessarily acts in the interest of students and general public.

There are many, many reasons why FDR and George Meany *strongly* opposed that creation of public/government employee unions.

:banghead:

Mike

Pfft.  I can agree on the tenure program.  My kids had a couple of dud teachers...then again, what student doesn't?

But, like NYSUT says, they are for evaluations in that link you provided.

However, it's not clear how those factor into graduation rates.

Finally, if you're jealous of union benefits, get your own.  No need to tear down everyone else to your level.

Well, one thing you may or may not realize, school education is VERY EXPENSIVE. It makes total sense to look at costs and deliverables. NY fails on both.
How expensive you may ask? right now, NYS public schools spend $24k per student per year - so by the end of high school (with diploma or not) it is $300k total per kid. Think about it as a loan, similar to college loan, we both are paying off from our taxes. In case you think college loans are expensive....
So if you plan to work for 36 years (3x12), it is currently $8k/year for you or me.  Compared to about $1200/working adult spending of NYSDOT
I would say this is pretty serious amount of money, and at a first glance that spending is inefficient. At a second glance, it is very inefficient....

So, now we're back to you cutting funding to our schools...

Why pay for schools when you could be on par with the likes of WV or MS...?

Imagine thinking the private sector is one giant meritocracy.

As late as 1960, the official position of the state of California was to "...reaffirm the long established principle that state colleges and the University of California shall be free to all residents of the state."

Quote from: Rothman on September 06, 2022, 07:05:48 PM

Quote from: kalvado on September 06, 2022, 05:27:11 PM

Quote from: Rothman on September 06, 2022, 04:44:06 PM

Quote from: mgk920 on September 06, 2022, 02:40:18 PM

Quote from: kalvado on September 06, 2022, 02:15:52 PM

Quote from: Rothman on September 06, 2022, 01:59:37 PM
Which changes would increase the graduation rate that the union opposes?
Thank goodness for a strong union for keeping governors from making disastrous decisions that would make the situation even worse.

As far as I understand, seniority based employment - as opposed to merit based - is one of the big things. Younger teachers were kicked out and would not return.
https://tntp.org/news-and-press/view/new-yorks-outdated-tenure-laws

Any objective evaluation - although that is a tough issue by itself - is another one:
https://www.nysut.org/members/member-guide/appr

That is not the key financial issue; just some examples of why union protecting membes first doesn't necessarily acts in the interest of students and general public.

There are many, many reasons why FDR and George Meany *strongly* opposed that creation of public/government employee unions.

:banghead:

Mike

Pfft.  I can agree on the tenure program.  My kids had a couple of dud teachers...then again, what student doesn't?

But, like NYSUT says, they are for evaluations in that link you provided.

However, it's not clear how those factor into graduation rates.

Finally, if you're jealous of union benefits, get your own.  No need to tear down everyone else to your level.

Well, one thing you may or may not realize, school education is VERY EXPENSIVE. It makes total sense to look at costs and deliverables. NY fails on both.
How expensive you may ask? right now, NYS public schools spend $24k per student per year - so by the end of high school (with diploma or not) it is $300k total per kid. Think about it as a loan, similar to college loan, we both are paying off from our taxes. In case you think college loans are expensive....
So if you plan to work for 36 years (3x12), it is currently $8k/year for you or me.  Compared to about $1200/working adult spending of NYSDOT
I would say this is pretty serious amount of money, and at a first glance that spending is inefficient. At a second glance, it is very inefficient....

So, now we're back to you cutting funding to our schools...

Why pay for schools when you could be on par with the likes of WV or MS...?

That's exactly what I mean when I talk about quality of education in NY. We're talking about distant top 1 spender, but somehow that means aiming to the bottom of the pack...

Quote from: kalvado on September 06, 2022, 07:58:24 PM

Quote from: Rothman on September 06, 2022, 07:05:48 PM

Quote from: kalvado on September 06, 2022, 05:27:11 PM

Quote from: Rothman on September 06, 2022, 04:44:06 PM

Quote from: mgk920 on September 06, 2022, 02:40:18 PM

Quote from: kalvado on September 06, 2022, 02:15:52 PM

Quote from: Rothman on September 06, 2022, 01:59:37 PM
Which changes would increase the graduation rate that the union opposes?
Thank goodness for a strong union for keeping governors from making disastrous decisions that would make the situation even worse.

As far as I understand, seniority based employment - as opposed to merit based - is one of the big things. Younger teachers were kicked out and would not return.
https://tntp.org/news-and-press/view/new-yorks-outdated-tenure-laws

Any objective evaluation - although that is a tough issue by itself - is another one:
https://www.nysut.org/members/member-guide/appr

That is not the key financial issue; just some examples of why union protecting membes first doesn't necessarily acts in the interest of students and general public.

There are many, many reasons why FDR and George Meany *strongly* opposed that creation of public/government employee unions.

:banghead:

Mike

Pfft.  I can agree on the tenure program.  My kids had a couple of dud teachers...then again, what student doesn't?

But, like NYSUT says, they are for evaluations in that link you provided.

However, it's not clear how those factor into graduation rates.

Finally, if you're jealous of union benefits, get your own.  No need to tear down everyone else to your level.

Well, one thing you may or may not realize, school education is VERY EXPENSIVE. It makes total sense to look at costs and deliverables. NY fails on both.
How expensive you may ask? right now, NYS public schools spend $24k per student per year - so by the end of high school (with diploma or not) it is $300k total per kid. Think about it as a loan, similar to college loan, we both are paying off from our taxes. In case you think college loans are expensive....
So if you plan to work for 36 years (3x12), it is currently $8k/year for you or me.  Compared to about $1200/working adult spending of NYSDOT
I would say this is pretty serious amount of money, and at a first glance that spending is inefficient. At a second glance, it is very inefficient....

So, now we're back to you cutting funding to our schools...

Why pay for schools when you could be on par with the likes of WV or MS...?

That's exactly what I mean when I talk about quality of education in NY. We're talking about distant top 1 spender, but somehow that means aiming to the bottom of the pack...

Pfft.  You've only mentioned graduation rates, which aren't normalized statistics across states.

Quote from: Rothman on September 06, 2022, 08:10:04 PM

Quote from: kalvado on September 06, 2022, 07:58:24 PM

Quote from: Rothman on September 06, 2022, 07:05:48 PM

Quote from: kalvado on September 06, 2022, 05:27:11 PM

Quote from: Rothman on September 06, 2022, 04:44:06 PM

Quote from: mgk920 on September 06, 2022, 02:40:18 PM

Quote from: kalvado on September 06, 2022, 02:15:52 PM

Quote from: Rothman on September 06, 2022, 01:59:37 PM
Which changes would increase the graduation rate that the union opposes?
Thank goodness for a strong union for keeping governors from making disastrous decisions that would make the situation even worse.

As far as I understand, seniority based employment - as opposed to merit based - is one of the big things. Younger teachers were kicked out and would not return.
https://tntp.org/news-and-press/view/new-yorks-outdated-tenure-laws

Any objective evaluation - although that is a tough issue by itself - is another one:
https://www.nysut.org/members/member-guide/appr

That is not the key financial issue; just some examples of why union protecting membes first doesn't necessarily acts in the interest of students and general public.

There are many, many reasons why FDR and George Meany *strongly* opposed that creation of public/government employee unions.

:banghead:

Mike

Pfft.  I can agree on the tenure program.  My kids had a couple of dud teachers...then again, what student doesn't?

But, like NYSUT says, they are for evaluations in that link you provided.

However, it's not clear how those factor into graduation rates.

Finally, if you're jealous of union benefits, get your own.  No need to tear down everyone else to your level.

Well, one thing you may or may not realize, school education is VERY EXPENSIVE. It makes total sense to look at costs and deliverables. NY fails on both.
How expensive you may ask? right now, NYS public schools spend $24k per student per year - so by the end of high school (with diploma or not) it is $300k total per kid. Think about it as a loan, similar to college loan, we both are paying off from our taxes. In case you think college loans are expensive....
So if you plan to work for 36 years (3x12), it is currently $8k/year for you or me.  Compared to about $1200/working adult spending of NYSDOT
I would say this is pretty serious amount of money, and at a first glance that spending is inefficient. At a second glance, it is very inefficient....

So, now we're back to you cutting funding to our schools...

Why pay for schools when you could be on par with the likes of WV or MS...?

That's exactly what I mean when I talk about quality of education in NY. We're talking about distant top 1 spender, but somehow that means aiming to the bottom of the pack...

Pfft.  You've only mentioned graduation rates, which aren't normalized statistics across states.

Any other parameter to look at? or "you just need to feel it!"?
A high school diploma is a significant thing for an adult, easily meaning being able to get a job or not. And high school diplomas are recognized across the nation, as far as I understand...

Quote from: kalvado on September 06, 2022, 08:46:13 PM

Quote from: Rothman on September 06, 2022, 08:10:04 PM

Quote from: kalvado on September 06, 2022, 07:58:24 PM

Quote from: Rothman on September 06, 2022, 07:05:48 PM

Quote from: kalvado on September 06, 2022, 05:27:11 PM

Quote from: Rothman on September 06, 2022, 04:44:06 PM

Quote from: mgk920 on September 06, 2022, 02:40:18 PM

Quote from: kalvado on September 06, 2022, 02:15:52 PM

Quote from: Rothman on September 06, 2022, 01:59:37 PM
Which changes would increase the graduation rate that the union opposes?
Thank goodness for a strong union for keeping governors from making disastrous decisions that would make the situation even worse.

As far as I understand, seniority based employment - as opposed to merit based - is one of the big things. Younger teachers were kicked out and would not return.
https://tntp.org/news-and-press/view/new-yorks-outdated-tenure-laws

Any objective evaluation - although that is a tough issue by itself - is another one:
https://www.nysut.org/members/member-guide/appr

That is not the key financial issue; just some examples of why union protecting membes first doesn't necessarily acts in the interest of students and general public.

There are many, many reasons why FDR and George Meany *strongly* opposed that creation of public/government employee unions.

:banghead:

Mike

Pfft.  I can agree on the tenure program.  My kids had a couple of dud teachers...then again, what student doesn't?

But, like NYSUT says, they are for evaluations in that link you provided.

However, it's not clear how those factor into graduation rates.

Finally, if you're jealous of union benefits, get your own.  No need to tear down everyone else to your level.

Well, one thing you may or may not realize, school education is VERY EXPENSIVE. It makes total sense to look at costs and deliverables. NY fails on both.
How expensive you may ask? right now, NYS public schools spend $24k per student per year - so by the end of high school (with diploma or not) it is $300k total per kid. Think about it as a loan, similar to college loan, we both are paying off from our taxes. In case you think college loans are expensive....
So if you plan to work for 36 years (3x12), it is currently $8k/year for you or me.  Compared to about $1200/working adult spending of NYSDOT
I would say this is pretty serious amount of money, and at a first glance that spending is inefficient. At a second glance, it is very inefficient....

So, now we're back to you cutting funding to our schools...

Why pay for schools when you could be on par with the likes of WV or MS...?

That's exactly what I mean when I talk about quality of education in NY. We're talking about distant top 1 spender, but somehow that means aiming to the bottom of the pack...

Pfft.  You've only mentioned graduation rates, which aren't normalized statistics across states.

Any other parameter to look at? or "you just need to feel it!"?
A high school diploma is a significant thing for an adult, easily meaning being able to get a job or not. And high school diplomas are recognized across the nation, as far as I understand...

Sure, diplomas have that significance.  But strictly looking at graduation rates and blaming lower rates on teacher unions when there are a whole host of other variables out there affecting graduation rates out there is inappropriate.

Just looking at graduation rates in a vacuum is like looking solely at GDP when comparing countries' economic output.  That's why you see GDP per capita or GDP per whatever to make the statistic comparable.  In other words, you're not controlling for things like crappy schools in other states, environmental factors, socioeconomics, percent English learners, etc., etc., which may have a much stronger effect on graduation rates than teachers unions.

Coincidentally enough, my statistics book from grad school used an example of research done on actual education achievement as determined by test scores to show how complicated the variables affecting real education achievement are.  So, sure, check out Introduction to Econometrics by Stock and Watson, chapter 5 in particular.

Quote from: Rothman on September 07, 2022, 07:10:46 AM

Quote from: kalvado on September 06, 2022, 08:46:13 PM
Any other parameter to look at? or "you just need to feel it!"?
A high school diploma is a significant thing for an adult, easily meaning being able to get a job or not. And high school diplomas are recognized across the nation, as far as I understand...

Sure, diplomas have that significance.  But strictly looking at graduation rates and blaming lower rates on teacher unions when there are a whole host of other variables out there affecting graduation rates out there is inappropriate.

Just looking at graduation rates in a vacuum is like looking solely at GDP when comparing countries' economic output.  That's why you see GDP per capita or GDP per whatever to make the statistic comparable.  In other words, you're not controlling for things like crappy schools in other states, environmental factors, socioeconomics, percent English learners, etc., etc., which may have a much stronger effect on graduation rates than teachers unions.

Coincidentally enough, my statistics book from grad school used an example of research done on actual education achievement as determined by test scores to show how complicated the variables affecting real education achievement are.  So, sure, check out Introduction to Econometrics by Stock and Watson, chapter 5 in particular.

So, let's try again.
What are the factors you want to look at - other than saying "it is all very complicated"?
I would compare NY with surrounding states - NJ (as a proxy for NYC), VT (as a proxy for upstate), CT, PA, NH and MA.
All those states have somewhat lower spending than NY, higher graduation rates, higher average SAT scores with similar participation rates (top-10 SAT scorer states have few kids taking exam)... Can you point a finger at the parameter that explains being top-1 spender without demonstrable change in outcome?  I have only two suggestions: either it is union, or NYS kids are much dumber than US average... 
And again - this is not some academic discussion. School spending reflects on overall tax burden and affects viability of business in the state. Would it be better for kids' future to have more chance of economic success without having to move far away?

Higher graduation rate is not always better. If the graduation rate is too high, that means the goal is set too low, and some kids are graduating that shouldn't be.

Quote from: 1 on September 07, 2022, 10:22:11 AM
Higher graduation rate is not always better. If the graduation rate is too high, that means the goal is set too low, and some kids are graduating that shouldn't be.

Totally true, especially with states setting their own standards. Interestingly enough, US graduation rate was slowly growing over past 15 years after 25 years of stagnation.
SAT could be a good metric, but it is not uniformly applied. Many states with high scores have few kids taking exam.

Quote from: 1 on September 07, 2022, 10:22:11 AM
Higher graduation rate is not always better. If the graduation rate is too high, that means the goal is set too low, and some kids are graduating that shouldn't be.

Some Children Left Behind

Quote from: kalvado on September 07, 2022, 10:19:48 AM

Quote from: Rothman on September 07, 2022, 07:10:46 AM

Quote from: kalvado on September 06, 2022, 08:46:13 PM
Any other parameter to look at? or "you just need to feel it!"?
A high school diploma is a significant thing for an adult, easily meaning being able to get a job or not. And high school diplomas are recognized across the nation, as far as I understand...

Sure, diplomas have that significance.  But strictly looking at graduation rates and blaming lower rates on teacher unions when there are a whole host of other variables out there affecting graduation rates out there is inappropriate.

Just looking at graduation rates in a vacuum is like looking solely at GDP when comparing countries' economic output.  That's why you see GDP per capita or GDP per whatever to make the statistic comparable.  In other words, you're not controlling for things like crappy schools in other states, environmental factors, socioeconomics, percent English learners, etc., etc., which may have a much stronger effect on graduation rates than teachers unions.

Coincidentally enough, my statistics book from grad school used an example of research done on actual education achievement as determined by test scores to show how complicated the variables affecting real education achievement are.  So, sure, check out Introduction to Econometrics by Stock and Watson, chapter 5 in particular.

So, let's try again.
What are the factors you want to look at - other than saying "it is all very complicated"?
I would compare NY with surrounding states - NJ (as a proxy for NYC), VT (as a proxy for upstate), CT, PA, NH and MA.
All those states have somewhat lower spending than NY, higher graduation rates, higher average SAT scores with similar participation rates (top-10 SAT scorer states have few kids taking exam)... Can you point a finger at the parameter that explains being top-1 spender without demonstrable change in outcome?  I have only two suggestions: either it is union, or NYS kids are much dumber than US average... 
And again - this is not some academic discussion. School spending reflects on overall tax burden and affects viability of business in the state. Would it be better for kids' future to have more chance of economic success without having to move far away?

If those are your only two suggestions, then you really do need to read the chapter I provided.

A bunch of those other states also have teachers unions...

Quote from: Rothman on September 07, 2022, 11:28:17 AM

Quote from: kalvado on September 07, 2022, 10:19:48 AM

Quote from: Rothman on September 07, 2022, 07:10:46 AM

Quote from: kalvado on September 06, 2022, 08:46:13 PM
Any other parameter to look at? or "you just need to feel it!"?
A high school diploma is a significant thing for an adult, easily meaning being able to get a job or not. And high school diplomas are recognized across the nation, as far as I understand...

Sure, diplomas have that significance.  But strictly looking at graduation rates and blaming lower rates on teacher unions when there are a whole host of other variables out there affecting graduation rates out there is inappropriate.

Just looking at graduation rates in a vacuum is like looking solely at GDP when comparing countries' economic output.  That's why you see GDP per capita or GDP per whatever to make the statistic comparable.  In other words, you're not controlling for things like crappy schools in other states, environmental factors, socioeconomics, percent English learners, etc., etc., which may have a much stronger effect on graduation rates than teachers unions.

Coincidentally enough, my statistics book from grad school used an example of research done on actual education achievement as determined by test scores to show how complicated the variables affecting real education achievement are.  So, sure, check out Introduction to Econometrics by Stock and Watson, chapter 5 in particular.

So, let's try again.
What are the factors you want to look at - other than saying "it is all very complicated"?
I would compare NY with surrounding states - NJ (as a proxy for NYC), VT (as a proxy for upstate), CT, PA, NH and MA.
All those states have somewhat lower spending than NY, higher graduation rates, higher average SAT scores with similar participation rates (top-10 SAT scorer states have few kids taking exam)... Can you point a finger at the parameter that explains being top-1 spender without demonstrable change in outcome?  I have only two suggestions: either it is union, or NYS kids are much dumber than US average... 
And again - this is not some academic discussion. School spending reflects on overall tax burden and affects viability of business in the state. Would it be better for kids' future to have more chance of economic success without having to move far away?

If those are your only two suggestions, then you really do need to read the chapter I provided.

A bunch of those other states also have teachers unions...

OK, go ahead and provide some suggestions. I specifically don't compare NY with MS or ND, my comparison is for the northeast. And again, question is not "why graduation rate is lower", q
uestion is "what those extra dollars actually buy us?"

And I am not saying union is an unconditionally bad thing. It really depends, it is stupid to deny positive things unions did.
Problem of some unions (and not only unions) is that they are pushing things too far. Like Albany police union standing for their members (good thing,right?) - e.g. fighting against firing of a cop after he did a drunk hit-and-run with bodily injury to the other side. 

So then we should ALL just throw more money at it.  But when is it 'enough'?

Mike

Quote from: Scott5114 on September 03, 2022, 08:09:11 PM
Sometimes there literally isn't enough money. My backyard fence is falling apart, but any amount of yelling "I need to spend a little money on preventative maintenance!" at the bank doesn't cause them to deposit anything in my account.

Well put.

I feel like the OP's solution to the problem is basically "People should spend more money".  Then, when it's pointed out that they don't have any more money to spend, he'd say "People should have more money".

Quote from: kalvado on September 07, 2022, 12:04:41 PM

Quote from: Rothman on September 07, 2022, 11:28:17 AM

Quote from: kalvado on September 07, 2022, 10:19:48 AM

Quote from: Rothman on September 07, 2022, 07:10:46 AM

Quote from: kalvado on September 06, 2022, 08:46:13 PM
Any other parameter to look at? or "you just need to feel it!"?
A high school diploma is a significant thing for an adult, easily meaning being able to get a job or not. And high school diplomas are recognized across the nation, as far as I understand...

Sure, diplomas have that significance.  But strictly looking at graduation rates and blaming lower rates on teacher unions when there are a whole host of other variables out there affecting graduation rates out there is inappropriate.

Just looking at graduation rates in a vacuum is like looking solely at GDP when comparing countries' economic output.  That's why you see GDP per capita or GDP per whatever to make the statistic comparable.  In other words, you're not controlling for things like crappy schools in other states, environmental factors, socioeconomics, percent English learners, etc., etc., which may have a much stronger effect on graduation rates than teachers unions.

Coincidentally enough, my statistics book from grad school used an example of research done on actual education achievement as determined by test scores to show how complicated the variables affecting real education achievement are.  So, sure, check out Introduction to Econometrics by Stock and Watson, chapter 5 in particular.

So, let's try again.
What are the factors you want to look at - other than saying "it is all very complicated"?
I would compare NY with surrounding states - NJ (as a proxy for NYC), VT (as a proxy for upstate), CT, PA, NH and MA.
All those states have somewhat lower spending than NY, higher graduation rates, higher average SAT scores with similar participation rates (top-10 SAT scorer states have few kids taking exam)... Can you point a finger at the parameter that explains being top-1 spender without demonstrable change in outcome?  I have only two suggestions: either it is union, or NYS kids are much dumber than US average... 
And again - this is not some academic discussion. School spending reflects on overall tax burden and affects viability of business in the state. Would it be better for kids' future to have more chance of economic success without having to move far away?

If those are your only two suggestions, then you really do need to read the chapter I provided.

A bunch of those other states also have teachers unions...

OK, go ahead and provide some suggestions. I specifically don't compare NY with MS or ND, my comparison is for the northeast. And again, question is not "why graduation rate is lower", q
uestion is "what those extra dollars actually buy us?"

And I am not saying union is an unconditionally bad thing. It really depends, it is stupid to deny positive things unions did.
Problem of some unions (and not only unions) is that they are pushing things too far. Like Albany police union standing for their members (good thing,right?) - e.g. fighting against firing of a cop after he did a drunk hit-and-run with bodily injury to the other side.

1) Air conditioning, evidently, compared to Ohio

2) Glad that you see the situation as more nuanced than "teachers union is murdering us."

Quote from: ZLoth on September 03, 2022, 12:18:17 PM
The folks who do anything to avoid the delivery fee even though their vehicle is ill-equipped to handle the item purchased which has lead to some very amusing pictures posted on the Internet.

This is the only one that bothers me, because it involves creating a hazard on the road for others. If you can't get it home safely or afford the delivery fee, then buy a less expensive model.

Quote from: ZLoth on September 03, 2022, 12:18:17 PM
The people who insist on paying CA$H for everything. I understand the undertones behind this habit... if you are handing over cash to pay for items, it makes you more cost-conscious of what you spend your money on. Having said that, I prefer to use my credit card to pay for my purchases including the recurring bills, and, most importantly, pay it off every month so that I don't pay interest. Since I have a rewards card, I'm saving up the year-end cash-back to pay for some appliance replacement, and more importantly, build up my credit rating (https://markholtz.info/2on) so that I was able to purchase a home. Which brings me to my next point...

Some people just aren't good at controlling their use of credit, so for them it makes sense. For anyone else, there are tons of benefits to building up and using credit, and people should be aware of that, but in the end their choice doesn't impact me.

Quote from: ZLoth on September 03, 2022, 12:18:17 PM
The people who crow about paying CA$H for their home. All well and good, until you look at the details. The house is a big small, and doesn't meet their needs. They are out in the middle of the country, meaning they have to travel a significant distance to the store, further to the warehouse store, and even further to get to work. That's a problem that was underscored the past several months when gas prices hit record levels making every mile hurt in the wallet. And, the Internet connectivity, being that it is "wireless Internet", isn't all that great and expensive which poses a challenge working from home. But, hey, they paid CA$H for their home. :banghead: Meanwhile, I have a decent home where I can work to work, shopping is very close by, and I have gigabit Internet in both upload and download speeds.

The "mommy fixes" where the repair usually consists of transparent or duct tape, all just to save five-ten bucks from purchasing a new replacement. Note that I'm not lumping the "self-repair" people in this category, as they are actually watching the YouTube HowTo videos, ordering the parts, and doing thew repair themselves.

The folks who do anything to avoid the delivery fee even though their vehicle is ill-equipped to handle the item purchased which has lead to some very amusing pictures posted on the Internet.

The folks who purchase the absolute cheapest products who, by nature, may lack features and functionality, and because of the lower quality, promptly falls apart a short time after the warranty expires.

Likewise, the folks who life's mantra is "if it ain't broke, don't fix it". Slight problem... the item they are utilizing is so technologically obsolete to the point where they are hunting FleaBay to find the replacement parts that are no longer made by the manufacturer. I should emphasize that the actual replacement is both cheaper to operate and increases productivity, resulting in long term savings to offset the replacement cost.

Not spending the little bit of money for preventative maintenance, including regular computer backups and oil changes. Nope, nope, don't have the time or money for that, but SURPRISE when there is a major repair or restoration bill that costs more and puts you out of action for days!

All of these things boil down to cost benefit analysis of different options. Yes, in a lot of cases spending more up front saves you later, even if you have to borrow with interest to do so, but again, it doesn't affect me so it doesn't bother me.

Frugality sounds more like the group involved benefit from certain economic, fiscal and monetary conditions of the era.

Quote from: kalvado on September 06, 2022, 11:41:24 AM

Quote from: 1 on September 06, 2022, 11:27:36 AM
Having electricity prices too low will just encourage wasting electricity, something California is trying to avoid but Texas doesn't care about. You are aware of global warming, right?

There is some sense in higher prices pushing for more savings; but that is also a handicap for certain businesses where energy costs are significant. Think heavy industry, big data, AI... Water desalination, which may become make-it or break-it for CA...

Oh, and by the way. It is no longer "global warming". It is "climate change".

In the big picture, it is global warming. The planet is getting warmer. "Climate change" is a term used to dumb it down for people who can't understand why the planet getting warmer overall sometimes causes extreme weather events that don't necessarily include the temperature rising, like blizzards, hurricanes, floods, wildfires, and droughts.

Quote from: Rothman on September 07, 2022, 01:11:06 PM

Quote from: kalvado on September 07, 2022, 12:04:41 PM

Quote from: Rothman on September 07, 2022, 11:28:17 AM

Quote from: kalvado on September 07, 2022, 10:19:48 AM

Quote from: Rothman on September 07, 2022, 07:10:46 AM

Quote from: kalvado on September 06, 2022, 08:46:13 PM
Any other parameter to look at? or "you just need to feel it!"?
A high school diploma is a significant thing for an adult, easily meaning being able to get a job or not. And high school diplomas are recognized across the nation, as far as I understand...

Sure, diplomas have that significance.  But strictly looking at graduation rates and blaming lower rates on teacher unions when there are a whole host of other variables out there affecting graduation rates out there is inappropriate.

Just looking at graduation rates in a vacuum is like looking solely at GDP when comparing countries' economic output.  That's why you see GDP per capita or GDP per whatever to make the statistic comparable.  In other words, you're not controlling for things like crappy schools in other states, environmental factors, socioeconomics, percent English learners, etc., etc., which may have a much stronger effect on graduation rates than teachers unions.

Coincidentally enough, my statistics book from grad school used an example of research done on actual education achievement as determined by test scores to show how complicated the variables affecting real education achievement are.  So, sure, check out Introduction to Econometrics by Stock and Watson, chapter 5 in particular.

So, let's try again.
What are the factors you want to look at - other than saying "it is all very complicated"?
I would compare NY with surrounding states - NJ (as a proxy for NYC), VT (as a proxy for upstate), CT, PA, NH and MA.
All those states have somewhat lower spending than NY, higher graduation rates, higher average SAT scores with similar participation rates (top-10 SAT scorer states have few kids taking exam)... Can you point a finger at the parameter that explains being top-1 spender without demonstrable change in outcome?  I have only two suggestions: either it is union, or NYS kids are much dumber than US average... 
And again - this is not some academic discussion. School spending reflects on overall tax burden and affects viability of business in the state. Would it be better for kids' future to have more chance of economic success without having to move far away?

If those are your only two suggestions, then you really do need to read the chapter I provided.

A bunch of those other states also have teachers unions...

OK, go ahead and provide some suggestions. I specifically don't compare NY with MS or ND, my comparison is for the northeast. And again, question is not "why graduation rate is lower", q
uestion is "what those extra dollars actually buy us?"

And I am not saying union is an unconditionally bad thing. It really depends, it is stupid to deny positive things unions did.
Problem of some unions (and not only unions) is that they are pushing things too far. Like Albany police union standing for their members (good thing,right?) - e.g. fighting against firing of a cop after he did a drunk hit-and-run with bodily injury to the other side.

1) Air conditioning, evidently, compared to Ohio

2) Glad that you see the situation as more nuanced than "teachers union is murdering us."

1) I don't believe AC would cost anywhere close to $1K per student annually.
2) I definitely see it that way. NYSUT is one of those unions which desperately need a reality check.

Quote from: NWI_Irish96 on September 07, 2022, 01:11:42 PM

Quote from: ZLoth on September 03, 2022, 12:18:17 PM
The folks who do anything to avoid the delivery fee even though their vehicle is ill-equipped to handle the item purchased which has lead to some very amusing pictures posted on the Internet.

This is the only one that bothers me, because it involves creating a hazard on the road for others. If you can't get it home safely or afford the delivery fee, then buy a less expensive model.

If you found the item for free on Craigslist, then "buy a less expensive model" isn't really an option.

We used to own a plastic backyard slide, maybe five or six feet tall.  Ahead of my wife getting her home daycare licensed, we realized that it was too tall to pass state daycare regulations, so we offered it for super-cheap on Craigslist.  The woman who contacted us for it was a single mom barely making ends meet.  We decided to not even charge her for it at all.  But, to get it to her house, I took the sections apart and strapped them to the top of my car.

Quote from: NWI_Irish96 on September 07, 2022, 01:36:20 PM
In the big picture, it is global warming. The planet is getting warmer. "Climate change" is a term used to dumb it down for people who can't understand why the planet getting warmer overall sometimes causes extreme weather events that don't necessarily include the temperature rising, like blizzards, hurricanes, floods, wildfires, and droughts.

Isn't it also because "warm" sounds like a good thing to most people?  That's also why "greenhouse effect" didn't last very long as a term:  greenhouses are full of vibrant life.

Quote from: NWI_Irish96 on September 07, 2022, 01:36:20 PM

Quote from: kalvado on September 06, 2022, 11:41:24 AM

Quote from: 1 on September 06, 2022, 11:27:36 AM
Having electricity prices too low will just encourage wasting electricity, something California is trying to avoid but Texas doesn't care about. You are aware of global warming, right?

There is some sense in higher prices pushing for more savings; but that is also a handicap for certain businesses where energy costs are significant. Think heavy industry, big data, AI... Water desalination, which may become make-it or break-it for CA...

Oh, and by the way. It is no longer "global warming". It is "climate change".

In the big picture, it is global warming. The planet is getting warmer. "Climate change" is a term used to dumb it down for people who can't understand why the planet getting warmer overall sometimes causes extreme weather events that don't necessarily include the temperature rising, like blizzards, hurricanes, floods, wildfires, and droughts.

"global warming" doesn't seem to materialize.  Climate change is a replacement much more nuanced concept.
Sir Karl would argue that such approach means climatology is no longer a science, but that in a whole different flame.

Quote from: kphoger on September 07, 2022, 01:53:01 PMThat's also why "greenhouse effect" didn't last very long as a term:  greenhouses are full of vibrant life.

I mean, I definitely associate "greenhouse" with "place that is uncomfortably warm" (see, e.g. Garfield Park Conservatory), but "hothouse effect" would have been a better idea.

Quote from: kphoger on September 07, 2022, 01:53:01 PMWe used to own a plastic backyard slide, maybe five or six feet tall.  Ahead of my wife getting her home daycare licensed, we realized that it was too tall to pass state daycare regulations, so we offered it for super-cheap on Craigslist.  The woman who contacted us for it was a single mom barely making ends meet.  We decided to not even charge her for it at all.  But, to get it to her house, I took the sections apart and strapped them to the top of my car.

That was a mitzvah.

Quote from: kphoger on September 07, 2022, 01:53:01 PMIsn't it also because "warm" sounds like a good thing to most people?  That's also why "greenhouse effect" didn't last very long as a term:  greenhouses are full of vibrant life.

I think part of the reason we struggle with terminology is that humans are very bad at thinking about long-term trends, and many of the negative effects we worry about involve great shortening of recurrence intervals for things like hurricanes, tornadoes, rainfall of intolerably high intensity, wet-bulb heat waves, and so on.

Quote from: ZLoth on September 06, 2022, 10:47:55 AM

Quote from: CtrlAltDel on September 06, 2022, 08:59:56 AMApparently, it's about how Texas used to be better than California in every single way.

I never claimed that Texas is better in every single way, only that I'm happier here than in California.

So, what then is better in California, do you think?

Quote from: ZLoth on September 06, 2022, 10:47:55 AM

Quote from: CtrlAltDel on September 06, 2022, 08:59:56 AMThat would explain why he didn't bring up Texas's more recent electricity fiasco, which killed anywhere from 200 to 700 people.

Are you talking about the February, 2021 extreme weather event where it snowed in Houston as well as the DFW area (where the expected snowfall is a "dusting" in the northern part once a year.... maybe),

Yes. The one that came after something broadly similar happened ten years prior and that led to recommendations that a bunch of things be addressed but that weren't, thus leading to a crystal clear example of the penny-wise pound-foolish actions you deride in your OP. That one, yes.

Quote from: CtrlAltDel on September 07, 2022, 03:15:02 PM
So, what then is better in California, do you think?

Cabernet Sauvignon, Pinot Noir.

Quote from: kphoger on September 07, 2022, 03:32:07 PM

Quote from: CtrlAltDel on September 07, 2022, 03:15:02 PM
So, what then is better in California, do you think?

Cabernet Sauvignon, Pinot Noir.

And, if you're into that sort of thing, Humboldt Gold.

Quote from: NWI_Irish96 on September 07, 2022, 01:36:20 PM

Quote from: kalvado on September 06, 2022, 11:41:24 AM

Quote from: 1 on September 06, 2022, 11:27:36 AM
Having electricity prices too low will just encourage wasting electricity, something California is trying to avoid but Texas doesn't care about. You are aware of global warming, right?

There is some sense in higher prices pushing for more savings; but that is also a handicap for certain businesses where energy costs are significant. Think heavy industry, big data, AI... Water desalination, which may become make-it or break-it for CA...

Oh, and by the way. It is no longer "global warming". It is "climate change".

In the big picture, it is global warming. The planet is getting warmer. "Climate change" is a term used to dumb it down for people who can't understand why the planet getting warmer overall sometimes causes extreme weather events that don't necessarily include the temperature rising, like blizzards, hurricanes, floods, wildfires, and droughts.

Per the IPCC and NOAA, "climate change" is to discuss any change in climate regardless of source, including things like volcanic activity that can force temperatures downward. "Global warming" is to discuss warming caused solely by human activity. The media tends to conflate the two, which causes others to do so.

Quote from: abefroman329 on September 07, 2022, 02:15:34 PM

Quote from: kphoger on September 07, 2022, 01:53:01 PMThat's also why "greenhouse effect" didn't last very long as a term:  greenhouses are full of vibrant life.

I mean, I definitely associate "greenhouse" with "place that is uncomfortably warm" (see, e.g. Garfield Park Conservatory), but "hothouse effect" would have been a better idea.

"Greenhouse effect" is absolutely still a term - it's just not a great way to talk about human-caused climate change because it's a fundamental part of any atmosphere and an absolute necessity for life on this planet. Given the constant radiation output from the sun and the distance between it and Earth, the average global temperature should be about -1F ... which is obviously far too cold for liquid water except maybe in some areas in the tropics. But measurements show the average global temperature to be 57F. Why? Greenhouse gases absorb some of the planet's outgoing heat and re-radiate it back to the surface instead of letting it all be lost to space.

(Yeah, I totally dug out my Intro to Environmental Science notes from freshman year of undergrad for this. It's also not as well known that water vapor is responsible for over half of Earth's greenhouse effect.)

Quote from: US 89 on September 07, 2022, 07:56:39 PM

Quote from: abefroman329 on September 07, 2022, 02:15:34 PM

Quote from: kphoger on September 07, 2022, 01:53:01 PMThat's also why "greenhouse effect" didn't last very long as a term:  greenhouses are full of vibrant life.

I mean, I definitely associate "greenhouse" with "place that is uncomfortably warm" (see, e.g. Garfield Park Conservatory), but "hothouse effect" would have been a better idea.

"Greenhouse effect" is absolutely still a term - it's just not a great way to talk about human-caused climate change because it's a fundamental part of any atmosphere and an absolute necessity for life on this planet. Given the constant radiation output from the sun and the distance between it and Earth, the average global temperature should be about -1F ... which is obviously far too cold for liquid water except maybe in some areas in the tropics. But measurements show the average global temperature to be 57F. Why? Greenhouse gases absorb some of the planet's outgoing heat and re-radiate it back to the surface instead of letting it all be lost to space.

(Yeah, I totally dug out my Intro to Environmental Science notes from freshman year of undergrad for this. It's also not as well known that water vapor is responsible for over half of Earth's greenhouse effect.)

Some of us also remember when CFCs were regulated...

Quote from: Rothman on September 07, 2022, 09:22:57 PM

Quote from: US 89 on September 07, 2022, 07:56:39 PM

Quote from: abefroman329 on September 07, 2022, 02:15:34 PM

Quote from: kphoger on September 07, 2022, 01:53:01 PMThat's also why "greenhouse effect" didn't last very long as a term:  greenhouses are full of vibrant life.

I mean, I definitely associate "greenhouse" with "place that is uncomfortably warm" (see, e.g. Garfield Park Conservatory), but "hothouse effect" would have been a better idea.

"Greenhouse effect" is absolutely still a term - it's just not a great way to talk about human-caused climate change because it's a fundamental part of any atmosphere and an absolute necessity for life on this planet. Given the constant radiation output from the sun and the distance between it and Earth, the average global temperature should be about -1F ... which is obviously far too cold for liquid water except maybe in some areas in the tropics. But measurements show the average global temperature to be 57F. Why? Greenhouse gases absorb some of the planet's outgoing heat and re-radiate it back to the surface instead of letting it all be lost to space.

(Yeah, I totally dug out my Intro to Environmental Science notes from freshman year of undergrad for this. It's also not as well known that water vapor is responsible for over half of Earth's greenhouse effect.)

Some of us also remember when CFCs were regulated...

They are still being regulated; ones that are used now are supposingly much safer for ozone.
Ozone hole is no longer in the news, but it is still there. I have a hard time saying if it is CFC regulation that made things change, or if there is something else.  Some things really make too little sense...
(https://eoimages.gsfc.nasa.gov/images/imagerecords/149000/149010/ozone_avg_1979-2021.png)

Quote from: CtrlAltDel on September 07, 2022, 03:15:02 PM

Quote from: ZLoth on September 06, 2022, 10:47:55 AM

Quote from: CtrlAltDel on September 06, 2022, 08:59:56 AMApparently, it's about how Texas used to be better than California in every single way.

I never claimed that Texas is better in every single way, only that I'm happier here than in California.

So, what then is better in California, do you think?

First off, I will admit to missing the hot-summer Mediterranean climate with the lower humidity making some of the high summer days bearable. Here in north Dallas, the humidity is somewhat higher, and there have been days where it was 100℉ and a wind was blowing. On the other hand, Dallas has weather that is more interesting, while Sacramento has "weather".

There is also some spectacular scenic routes in Northern California. Besides CA-1/US-101 along the coast, there is also CA-70, CA-88, CA-49, and CA-32 through the Sierra Nevadas. I had plans to do a end-to-end trip on US-395, but alas, plans fell through. Those trips are off the normal paths of I-80/US-50, so mobile coverage is spotty to non-existent. I cannot speak to Southern California, as I've only been there about five times in 41 years. I really need to explore Texas a bit more.

Having said that, life is better in Texas. The travel opportunities from DFW International (https://markholtz.info/flightsfromdfw) and Love Field (https://markholtz.info/flightsfromdal) is much better than Sacramento "International" (https://markholtz.info/flightsfromsmf). In 2018, I saved up and took a cruise which departed from Miami. There are no non-stops to Miami, so my flight was from SMF to Washington DC to Miami. (The alternative was Houston International). The alternative would have been through a Bay Area airport, which would have meant at least 2-3 hour drive each way... just to save $20? No thanks. Also, the cost of living for me is lower in DFW and better career opportunities.

Quote from: ZLoth on September 08, 2022, 11:05:37 AM
Having said that, life is better in Texas. The travel opportunities from DFW International (https://markholtz.info/flightsfromdfw) and Love Field (https://markholtz.info/flightsfromdal) is much better than Sacramento "International" (https://markholtz.info/flightsfromsmf). In 2018, I saved up and took a cruise which departed from Miami. There are no non-stops to Miami, so my flight was from SMF to Washington DC to Miami. (The alternative was Houston International). The alternative would have been through a Bay Area airport, which would have meant at least 2-3 hour drive each way... just to save $20? No thanks. Also, the cost of living for me is lower in DFW and better career opportunities.

Definitely understandable, but that's a comparison between the two cities, not their respective states.

Quote from: ZLoth on September 08, 2022, 11:05:37 AM
Having said that, life is better in Texas. The travel opportunities from DFW International (https://markholtz.info/flightsfromdfw) and Love Field (https://markholtz.info/flightsfromdal) is much better than Sacramento "International" (https://markholtz.info/flightsfromsmf). In 2018, I saved up and took a cruise which departed from Miami. There are no non-stops to Miami, so my flight was from SMF to Washington DC to Miami. (The alternative was Houston International). The alternative would have been through a Bay Area airport, which would have meant at least 2-3 hour drive each way... just to save $20? No thanks.

You could compare Los Angeles (LAX) with, for example, El Paso to approximately same effect. This is about a major city with airline hub vs a smaller one, regardless of state.

Quote from: webny99 on September 08, 2022, 11:07:57 AM

Quote from: ZLoth on September 08, 2022, 11:05:37 AM
Having said that, life is better in Texas. The travel opportunities from DFW International (https://markholtz.info/flightsfromdfw) and Love Field (https://markholtz.info/flightsfromdal) is much better than Sacramento "International" (https://markholtz.info/flightsfromsmf). In 2018, I saved up and took a cruise which departed from Miami. There are no non-stops to Miami, so my flight was from SMF to Washington DC to Miami. (The alternative was Houston International). The alternative would have been through a Bay Area airport, which would have meant at least 2-3 hour drive each way... just to save $20? No thanks. Also, the cost of living for me is lower in DFW and better career opportunities.

Definitely understandable, but that's a comparison between the two cities, not their respective states.

To be fair, you are talking about the third largest state verses the second largest state in terms of land area. Even if you chop California's land area in half and call it Northern California, that still is slightly larger than #15 Nebraska. Cut that in half again, and we're talking about a land area smaller than #37 Virginia. My stomping grounds have been mainly Northern California, and it has been extremely rare that I have gone further south than Modesto. And, traveling to Los Angeles is a whole day's drive and hopefully a good selection of music and audiobooks as you drive down Interstate 5, which isn't exactly a scenic drive.

Now, we are switching over to Texas, and that state is larger than most COUNTRIES. I have barely explored my new home state.

In addition, consider the population density. Check out this YouTube video:


You will notice that the states in the western half of the United States tend to be larger in land mass, but also a corresponding low population density compared with the eastern half. Per this list (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_states_and_territories_of_the_United_States_by_population_density), the top ten population-dense states are in the eastern half of the United States. California and Hawaii make up #11 and #13, while New York is #7, but has only 30.2% of the land area. And where is the highest population density area of New York State?

So...  you're agreeing with him?

Because both CA and TX are such large states, and because they're both in the western part of the US, it's fair to suppose that the advantages Dallas has over Sacramento might be offset by the advantages Los Angeles has over Lubbock?

Quote from: ZLoth on September 08, 2022, 01:12:09 PM
To be fair, you are talking about the third largest state verses the second largest state in terms of land area. Even if you chop California's land area in half and call it Northern California, that still is slightly larger than #15 Nebraska. Cut that in half again, and we're talking about a land area smaller than #37 Virginia. My stomping grounds have been mainly Northern California, and it has been extremely rare that I have gone further south than Modesto. And, traveling to Los Angeles is a whole day's drive and hopefully a good selection of music and audiobooks as you drive down Interstate 5, which isn't exactly a scenic drive.

Now, we are switching over to Texas, and that state is larger than most COUNTRIES. I have barely explored my new home state.

In addition, consider the population density. Check out this YouTube video:

You will notice that the states in the western half of the United States tend to be larger in land mass, but also a corresponding low population density compared with the eastern half. Per this list (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_states_and_territories_of_the_United_States_by_population_density), the top ten population-dense states are in the eastern half of the United States. California and Hawaii make up #11 and #13, while New York is #7, but has only 30.2% of the land area. And where is the highest population density area of New York State?

This is definitely a head scratcher. What he seems to be saying is that California is big, but it doesn't count as big, since he didn't really travel to most of it when he lived there, but that Texas is big and because it's big, he hasn't really traveled to most of it in the time he's lived there.

Quote from: kalvado on September 08, 2022, 10:01:52 AM

Quote from: Rothman on September 07, 2022, 09:22:57 PM

Quote from: US 89 on September 07, 2022, 07:56:39 PM

Quote from: abefroman329 on September 07, 2022, 02:15:34 PM

Quote from: kphoger on September 07, 2022, 01:53:01 PMThat's also why "greenhouse effect" didn't last very long as a term:  greenhouses are full of vibrant life.

I mean, I definitely associate "greenhouse" with "place that is uncomfortably warm" (see, e.g. Garfield Park Conservatory), but "hothouse effect" would have been a better idea.

"Greenhouse effect" is absolutely still a term - it's just not a great way to talk about human-caused climate change because it's a fundamental part of any atmosphere and an absolute necessity for life on this planet. Given the constant radiation output from the sun and the distance between it and Earth, the average global temperature should be about -1F ... which is obviously far too cold for liquid water except maybe in some areas in the tropics. But measurements show the average global temperature to be 57F. Why? Greenhouse gases absorb some of the planet's outgoing heat and re-radiate it back to the surface instead of letting it all be lost to space.

(Yeah, I totally dug out my Intro to Environmental Science notes from freshman year of undergrad for this. It's also not as well known that water vapor is responsible for over half of Earth's greenhouse effect.)

Some of us also remember when CFCs were regulated...

They are still being regulated; ones that are used now are supposingly much safer for ozone.
Ozone hole is no longer in the news, but it is still there. I have a hard time saying if it is CFC regulation that made things change, or if there is something else.  Some things really make too little sense...
(https://eoimages.gsfc.nasa.gov/images/imagerecords/149000/149010/ozone_avg_1979-2021.png)

Ozone hole has begun to slowly shrink. The problem with CFCs is they have exceptionally long atmospheric lifetimes, which means their effects persist long after they stop being emitted. Incidentally, this is why CFCs were introduced in the first place - earlier refrigerants included far more toxic and reactive compounds like ammonia, sulfur dioxide, or methyl chloride. The advantage of CFCs is that they are entirely nontoxic and do not react in the troposphere. The problem is if they get up to the stratosphere, they participate in a catalytic ozone-depleting cycle (in other words, a chemical reaction involving a CFC molecule and ozone occurs that destroys the ozone and gives you back the CFC molecule to destroy some more ozone, and so on...).

The industry has largely switched to HCFCs, which are more reactive than CFCs giving them less opportunity to get up to the stratosphere where they can cause ozone problems. Unfortunately, that doesn't eliminate the issue entirely, and it turns out HCFCs are just as potent greenhouse gases...

Quote from: kalvado on September 08, 2022, 12:11:37 PM

Quote from: ZLoth on September 08, 2022, 11:05:37 AM
Having said that, life is better in Texas. The travel opportunities from DFW International (https://markholtz.info/flightsfromdfw) and Love Field (https://markholtz.info/flightsfromdal) is much better than Sacramento "International" (https://markholtz.info/flightsfromsmf). In 2018, I saved up and took a cruise which departed from Miami. There are no non-stops to Miami, so my flight was from SMF to Washington DC to Miami. (The alternative was Houston International). The alternative would have been through a Bay Area airport, which would have meant at least 2-3 hour drive each way... just to save $20? No thanks.

You could compare Los Angeles (LAX) with, for example, El Paso to approximately same effect. This is about a major city with airline hub vs a smaller one, regardless of state.

Sacramento Metro Airport is mainly like Oakland Airport in the Bay Area and Burbank Airport in Los Angeles it's that they mainly deal with budget flights.  The major hubs like LAX and SFO  really do international flights.

Quote from: kalvado on September 08, 2022, 12:11:37 PM

Quote from: ZLoth on September 08, 2022, 11:05:37 AMHaving said that, life is better in Texas. The travel opportunities from DFW International (https://markholtz.info/flightsfromdfw) and Love Field (https://markholtz.info/flightsfromdal) is much better than Sacramento "International" (https://markholtz.info/flightsfromsmf). In 2018, I saved up and took a cruise which departed from Miami. There are no non-stops to Miami, so my flight was from SMF to Washington DC to Miami. (The alternative was Houston International). The alternative would have been through a Bay Area airport, which would have meant at least 2-3 hour drive each way... just to save $20? No thanks.

You could compare Los Angeles (LAX) with, for example, El Paso to approximately same effect. This is about a major city with airline hub vs a smaller one, regardless of state.

Actually, Las Vegas, DFW, and Houston are closer in flight times than LAX for international destinations. Having said that, SFO is much closer than LAX to Sacramento.

I've never found it difficult to find an eastbound connecting flight from FAT (Fresno-Yosemite).  Usually you can get where you want to go pretty easily if you are willing to layover at Denver, Dallas or Phoenix.  Usually any cost benefit to going to San Jose, San Francisco or Los Angeles is offset by the cost in gas it takes to get to those airports for direct flights. 

All the same, I generally don't consider flying as an option unless the destination I'm heading is a 10-12 hour drive away.  As example, last it cost us fraction of what it would have to drive to Boise than it would have driving.  I think we net saved about $1,000 dollars foregoing two adult tickets versus what we paid for in gas.  Considering how many blogs spawned from cool roads and road related stuff on Gribblenation it was even more of a no-brainer to drive in that scenario.  We did end up renting a van in Boise to finish the last leg of the trip to Yellowstone given I had a five passenger car and my brother leases. 

Quote from: Max Rockatansky on September 09, 2022, 12:06:40 PMAll the same, I generally don't consider flying as an option unless the destination I'm heading is a 10-12 hour drive away.  As example, last it cost us fraction of what it would have to drive to Boise than it would have driving.  I think we net saved about $1,000 dollars foregoing two adult tickets versus what we paid for in gas.  Considering how many blogs spawned from cool roads and road related stuff on Gribblenation it was even more of a no-brainer to drive in that scenario.  We did end up renting a van in Boise to finish the last leg of the trip to Yellowstone given I had a five passenger car and my brother leases.

Isn't this a board that favors road trips over airplane trips anyways? At the same time, it's kinda hard to drive to a certain state or many countries.

Quote from: ZLoth on September 09, 2022, 01:45:23 PM

Quote from: Max Rockatansky on September 09, 2022, 12:06:40 PMAll the same, I generally don't consider flying as an option unless the destination I'm heading is a 10-12 hour drive away.  As example, last it cost us fraction of what it would have to drive to Boise than it would have driving.  I think we net saved about $1,000 dollars foregoing two adult tickets versus what we paid for in gas.  Considering how many blogs spawned from cool roads and road related stuff on Gribblenation it was even more of a no-brainer to drive in that scenario.  We did end up renting a van in Boise to finish the last leg of the trip to Yellowstone given I had a five passenger car and my brother leases.

Isn't this a board that favors road trips over airplane trips anyways? At the same time, it's kinda hard to drive to a certain state or many countries.

I certainly do. I've never enjoyed flying. First of all I'm a big guy and airplane seating is really uncomfortable for me. Secondly I'm not a patient person and when you fly you wait to check your bags, wait to get through security, wait to board the plane, wait to takeoff, wait to get off the plane, wait to collect your bags. I like being able to just get in my car and go. Plus there's the added fun of adding to my TravelMapping and MobRule portfolios that you don't get when you fly.

Now, I'm not big on the multi-day, cross country trips like I used to be, so anything more than a 10-12 hour drive I now prefer to fly, but I'll take an 8 hour drive over a 2 hour flight every single time.

With a family of five, if it doesn't cross an ocean, then we're driving.

Quote from: ZLoth on September 09, 2022, 01:45:23 PM

Quote from: Max Rockatansky on September 09, 2022, 12:06:40 PMAll the same, I generally don't consider flying as an option unless the destination I'm heading is a 10-12 hour drive away.  As example, last it cost us fraction of what it would have to drive to Boise than it would have driving.  I think we net saved about $1,000 dollars foregoing two adult tickets versus what we paid for in gas.  Considering how many blogs spawned from cool roads and road related stuff on Gribblenation it was even more of a no-brainer to drive in that scenario.  We did end up renting a van in Boise to finish the last leg of the trip to Yellowstone given I had a five passenger car and my brother leases.

Isn't this a board that favors road trips over airplane trips anyways? At the same time, it's kinda hard to drive to a certain state or many countries.

Indeed, all the same sometimes what kinds of road play a factor for me.  If I was spending a couple days on cool two lane mountain roads to get some place, flying is certainly out.  12 hours on the road on mostly Interstate though and I'm at least checking flight options.

Another factor I have to consider now is that my wife doesn't have the affinity for driving and exploring weird places that I do.

Quote from: ZLoth on September 09, 2022, 01:45:23 PM
Isn't this a board that favors road trips over airplane trips anyways? At the same time, it's kinda hard to drive to a certain state or many countries.

I would say yes, with limits.  There's an amazing number of people out there that will spend more time getting to and waiting to fly at a nearby airport than could have just driven to their destination in the same amount of time.  The people on this board favors longer trips, but there is a point where flying is the preferred option.  And for many, if they've already driven the same area over and over again relatively near their home, it may just be easier to fly over that part of the country, land, rent a car and start their road trip from there!

Quote from: jeffandnicole on September 09, 2022, 02:53:50 PM

Quote from: ZLoth on September 09, 2022, 01:45:23 PM
Isn't this a board that favors road trips over airplane trips anyways? At the same time, it's kinda hard to drive to a certain state or many countries.

I would say yes, with limits.  There's an amazing number of people out there that will spend more time getting to and waiting to fly at a nearby airport than could have just driven to their destination in the same amount of time.  The people on this board favors longer trips, but there is a point where flying is the preferred option.  And for many, if they've already driven the same area over and over again relatively near their home, it may just be easier to fly over that part of the country, land, rent a car and start their road trip from there!

Which can be the case for me, especially with Interstate corridors.  I've clinched several of the big Interstates already, I don't "need"  to see them again given limited access tends to bore me. 

Quote from: jeffandnicole on September 09, 2022, 02:53:50 PM

Quote from: ZLoth on September 09, 2022, 01:45:23 PM
Isn't this a board that favors road trips over airplane trips anyways? At the same time, it's kinda hard to drive to a certain state or many countries.

I would say yes, with limits.  There's an amazing number of people out there that will spend more time getting to and waiting to fly at a nearby airport than could have just driven to their destination in the same amount of time.  The people on this board favors longer trips, but there is a point where flying is the preferred option.  And for many, if they've already driven the same area over and over again relatively near their home, it may just be easier to fly over that part of the country, land, rent a car and start their road trip from there!

Actually you would hear that post-9-11 security killed a lot of short air routes just because flight became too long due to security timing.
However, breakeven point maybe 4-5 hours total trip time, which is 300-400 miles give or take.

Quote from: kalvado on September 09, 2022, 04:16:09 PM

Quote from: jeffandnicole on September 09, 2022, 02:53:50 PM

Quote from: ZLoth on September 09, 2022, 01:45:23 PM
Isn't this a board that favors road trips over airplane trips anyways? At the same time, it's kinda hard to drive to a certain state or many countries.

I would say yes, with limits.  There's an amazing number of people out there that will spend more time getting to and waiting to fly at a nearby airport than could have just driven to their destination in the same amount of time.  The people on this board favors longer trips, but there is a point where flying is the preferred option.  And for many, if they've already driven the same area over and over again relatively near their home, it may just be easier to fly over that part of the country, land, rent a car and start their road trip from there!

Actually you would hear that post-9-11 security killed a lot of short air routes just because flight became too long due to security timing.
However, breakeven point maybe 4-5 hours total trip time, which is 300-400 miles give or take.

I found it to be more like 6-8 for locales west of the Rockies.  Examples I ran into regularly was my work sites in eastern New Mexico and western Texas.  It was almost always faster just to get in my work car and drive than the turn around of flying.  Flying including getting to the airport, waiting at the airport, the flight, getting out of the airport and getting a rental car.  From El Paso or Albuquerque it was usually at least another ninety minute to three hour drive to get where I needed to go.  I could usually straight shot those locations in 6-8 hours blasting down I-10, US 60 or I-40 from Phoenix.  At best a flight (assuming it is was on time) might save me a net hour.  That was hardly ever worth it in that work scenario given I was reimbursed for my mileage.

Quote from: ZLoth on September 09, 2022, 01:45:23 PM
Isn't this a board that favors road trips over airplane trips anyways? At the same time, it's kinda hard to drive to a certain state or many countries.

Quote from: jeffandnicole on September 09, 2022, 02:53:50 PM
I would say yes, with limits.  There's an amazing number of people out there that will spend more time getting to and waiting to fly at a nearby airport than could have just driven to their destination in the same amount of time.  The people on this board favors longer trips, but there is a point where flying is the preferred option.  And for many, if they've already driven the same area over and over again relatively near their home, it may just be easier to fly over that part of the country, land, rent a car and start their road trip from there!

Quote from: kalvado on September 09, 2022, 04:16:09 PM
Actually you would hear that post-9-11 security killed a lot of short air routes just because flight became too long due to security timing.
However, breakeven point maybe 4-5 hours total trip time, which is 300-400 miles give or take.

Tying all these themes together, I found that the combination of security timing and extra time spent on the tarmac more than justified my roadtrip pleasures.  I had a project post September 11 where I worked one week a month on the Lower Manhattan Recovery.  It was almost guaranteed that you would spend 4 hours on the tarmac at RDU before getting a slot into LaGuardia or JFK, then spend another 4 hours on the tarmac there waiting for a gate to open.  Including the AirTrain out to the subway, it the ordeal was approaching 12 hours for a 45-minute flight.  It was easier to drive to BWI and spend the night near the airport, then take Amtrak up first thing in the morning.

Quote from: jeffandnicole on September 09, 2022, 02:53:50 PM

Quote from: ZLoth on September 09, 2022, 01:45:23 PM
Isn't this a board that favors road trips over airplane trips anyways? At the same time, it's kinda hard to drive to a certain state or many countries.

I would say yes, with limits.  There's an amazing number of people out there that will spend more time getting to and waiting to fly at a nearby airport than could have just driven to their destination in the same amount of time.  The people on this board favors longer trips, but there is a point where flying is the preferred option.  And for many, if they've already driven the same area over and over again relatively near their home, it may just be easier to fly over that part of the country, land, rent a car and start their road trip from there!

I did this last October where I flew to Philly in order to road trip Atlantic Canada and New England. I don't need to see any more of the plains states unless I'm specifically visiting there.

Ah, yes, road trips. There is nothing like being alone in the car, driving down a route you haven't taken before, listening to music or an audiobook you have stored on your mobile device, enjoying a change of scenery, and . Compared to Northern California, DFW is a great launching point for road adventures. The southern endpoint of US-75 is in Dallas, but goes almost all the way up to the Canadian border in Minnesota, with a quick hop west, and you can be taking I-29/I-35 back to Dallas. Likewise, the western endpoint of US-80 is in Dallas, but the eastern endpoint is through Savannah, GA to Tybee Island. Plus Interstates 20, 30, 35, and 45. The challenge has been that, since 2019, I had to deal with the major expensive of moving halfway across the country, Covid and the resulting 12 hour workdays, and now having to be an adult caregiver.

Now that traveling is back in vogue, what challenges me is when people fly to the destination, take a cheaper hotel, then end up having to rent a car to get to the destinations they want to visit. Especially when, for a little bit more, they could have a hotel room within walking distance or a short public transit ride and not deal with the traffic. My last major vacation in 2018 in Miami, and I stayed in the Brickell district and within walking distance of the Brickell Metromover/Metrorail station which gave access to multiple tourist destinations.

Quote from: Scott5114 on September 03, 2022, 08:09:11 PM
Speaking of pizza, I've taken to ordering carryout lately. (Apologies to Zachary, should he read this.) I live near enough to Pizza Hut that I figured out that, even at the IRS mileage rate, it's faster and cheaper for me to go get the pizza myself than to have it delivered. (The only exception is if something's going on at the house where I don't want to leave; e.g. we have people over).

A lot of people are doing that, especially if they're close to the store. I get it -- the mysterious 'delivery charge' that I certainly get none of, tipping, all of that. At least you're not a dick about it. There's an apartment complex behind the store, that depending on the building, it's faster to just walk. I've walked deliveries there before. I don't mind 'I don't want to pay the extras, so I'll go get it myself'. It's the "I mind the extra charges, so I'm going to order and take it out on the guy that drives the car" that bugs me.

Quote from: zachary_amaryllis on September 10, 2022, 08:33:22 AM

Quote from: Scott5114 on September 03, 2022, 08:09:11 PM
Speaking of pizza, I've taken to ordering carryout lately. (Apologies to Zachary, should he read this.) I live near enough to Pizza Hut that I figured out that, even at the IRS mileage rate, it's faster and cheaper for me to go get the pizza myself than to have it delivered. (The only exception is if something's going on at the house where I don't want to leave; e.g. we have people over).

A lot of people are doing that, especially if they're close to the store. I get it -- the mysterious 'delivery charge' that I certainly get none of, tipping, all of that. At least you're not a dick about it. There's an apartment complex behind the store, that depending on the building, it's faster to just walk. I've walked deliveries there before. I don't mind 'I don't want to pay the extras, so I'll go get it myself'. It's the "I mind the extra charges, so I'm going to order and take it out on the guy that drives the car" that bugs me.

Our favorite (non-chain, local) pizza place at one point had a small discount or some incentive to pick up our pizza ourselves because they had such a hard time finding and keeping drivers.

We go get our pizza from the local restaurant which is two miles down the road.  It's not worth the delivery fee charge for a two mile drive.  They even offer uncooked pizzas which save us about $6 dollars if we are inclined bake ourselves (my wife pretty adept at it).

All I can say about frugality depending who you look are people looking at their actions now with long term effects implications when it comes to their budgets. The people I see that claim to be Frugal and Cheapskates look at Warren Buffett and his home as a framework on how to live their lives.
https://medium.com/live-your-life-on-purpose/warren-buffetts-frugal-lifestyle-is-the-secret-to-happiness-e06e739e5790
Who would "Frugal and Cheapskates" look up to if Buffet were to leave?
Who is your candidate that this group would look up to?

(https://image.cnbcfm.com/api/v1/image/48336321-Omaha-Nebraska-Driveway-Homes-Billionaires-Warren-Buffett-CNBC.jpg?v=1350683097&w=1400&h=950)

Quote from: bing101 on September 10, 2022, 11:43:12 AM
All I can say about frugality depending who you look are people looking at their actions now with long term effects implications when it comes to their budgets. The people I see that claim to be Frugal and Cheapskates look at Warren Buffett and his home as a framework on how to live their lives.
https://medium.com/live-your-life-on-purpose/warren-buffetts-frugal-lifestyle-is-the-secret-to-happiness-e06e739e5790
Who would "Frugal and Cheapskates" look up to if Buffet were to leave?
Who is your candidate that this group would look up to?

(https://image.cnbcfm.com/api/v1/image/48336321-Omaha-Nebraska-Driveway-Homes-Billionaires-Warren-Buffett-CNBC.jpg?v=1350683097&w=1400&h=950)

The idolization of Warren Buffett glosses over the fact that he's just as cutthroat, if not more, as any other businessperson (IMHO, he's also a jerk if you look at his life comprehensively).  He also did not amass his fortune just through frugality, but by having a good mind for quantitative analysis and therefore increasing his chances of making good investments through evaluation.  He coldly followed his analysis and invested accordingly, which a lot of other people would think as very risky if they did the same things themselves. Therefore, looking to him as some sort of paragon of frugality seems misplaced.

Having only recently come to a financial milestone in my life where I at least have a net worth in the black, I'm not sure there is a perfect role model out there.  Dave Ramsey's blind to the fact that some people have worked themselves into such a hole that they don't have enough hours in the day or capacity to earn enough to get out.  Suze Orman has been legitimately lampooned for similar reasons ("What do you mean you can't save up an emergency fund living paycheck to paycheck?").  I admire those who are able to save up for a few years and are somehow able to "retire," but that's not in my cards given my income level and frankly, desires (e.g., travel).

Just seems that people's financial dreams are all different and therefore they need a conglomeration of advice or examples to achieve them.

Quote from: bing101 on September 10, 2022, 11:43:12 AM
All I can say about frugality depending who you look are people looking at their actions now with long term effects implications when it comes to their budgets. The people I see that claim to be Frugal and Cheapskates look at Warren Buffett and his home as a framework on how to live their lives.
https://medium.com/live-your-life-on-purpose/warren-buffetts-frugal-lifestyle-is-the-secret-to-happiness-e06e739e5790
Who would "Frugal and Cheapskates" look up to if Buffet were to leave?
Who is your candidate that this group would look up to?

(https://image.cnbcfm.com/api/v1/image/48336321-Omaha-Nebraska-Driveway-Homes-Billionaires-Warren-Buffett-CNBC.jpg?v=1350683097&w=1400&h=950)

"Frugal"  and "ownership of a Mk4 Jetta"  don't belong together. Although the photo in the article itself shows a Camry, which is much less of a money pit.

Quote from: Takumi on September 10, 2022, 12:26:24 PM

Quote from: bing101 on September 10, 2022, 11:43:12 AM
All I can say about frugality depending who you look are people looking at their actions now with long term effects implications when it comes to their budgets. The people I see that claim to be Frugal and Cheapskates look at Warren Buffett and his home as a framework on how to live their lives.
https://medium.com/live-your-life-on-purpose/warren-buffetts-frugal-lifestyle-is-the-secret-to-happiness-e06e739e5790
Who would "Frugal and Cheapskates" look up to if Buffet were to leave?
Who is your candidate that this group would look up to?

(https://image.cnbcfm.com/api/v1/image/48336321-Omaha-Nebraska-Driveway-Homes-Billionaires-Warren-Buffett-CNBC.jpg?v=1350683097&w=1400&h=950)

"Frugal"  and "ownership of a Mk4 Jetta"  don't belong together. Although the photo in the article itself shows a Camry, which is much less of a money pit.

Berkshire Hathaway owns over 100 automobile dealerships, so perhaps Warren Buffett doesn't pay a cent for repairs and maintenance.

Quote from: Takumi on September 10, 2022, 12:26:24 PM

Quote from: bing101 on September 10, 2022, 11:43:12 AM
All I can say about frugality depending who you look are people looking at their actions now with long term effects implications when it comes to their budgets. The people I see that claim to be Frugal and Cheapskates look at Warren Buffett and his home as a framework on how to live their lives.
https://medium.com/live-your-life-on-purpose/warren-buffetts-frugal-lifestyle-is-the-secret-to-happiness-e06e739e5790
Who would "Frugal and Cheapskates" look up to if Buffet were to leave?
Who is your candidate that this group would look up to?

(https://image.cnbcfm.com/api/v1/image/48336321-Omaha-Nebraska-Driveway-Homes-Billionaires-Warren-Buffett-CNBC.jpg?v=1350683097&w=1400&h=950)

"Frugal"  and "ownership of a Mk4 Jetta"  don't belong together. Although the photo in the article itself shows a Camry, which is much less of a money pit.

The frugal billionaire shtick is kind of pointless, even if Warren Buffett literally eats at McDonalds. But at least he's not like this guy:

https://www.mansionglobal.com/articles/in-miami-a-waterfront-estate-with-two-homes-sells-for-a-record-106-875-million-01662144514

Quote from: formulanone on September 10, 2022, 05:58:14 PM

Quote from: Takumi on September 10, 2022, 12:26:24 PM

Quote from: bing101 on September 10, 2022, 11:43:12 AM
All I can say about frugality depending who you look are people looking at their actions now with long term effects implications when it comes to their budgets. The people I see that claim to be Frugal and Cheapskates look at Warren Buffett and his home as a framework on how to live their lives.
https://medium.com/live-your-life-on-purpose/warren-buffetts-frugal-lifestyle-is-the-secret-to-happiness-e06e739e5790
Who would "Frugal and Cheapskates" look up to if Buffet were to leave?
Who is your candidate that this group would look up to?

(https://image.cnbcfm.com/api/v1/image/48336321-Omaha-Nebraska-Driveway-Homes-Billionaires-Warren-Buffett-CNBC.jpg?v=1350683097&w=1400&h=950)

"Frugal"  and "ownership of a Mk4 Jetta"  don't belong together. Although the photo in the article itself shows a Camry, which is much less of a money pit.

Berkshire Hathaway owns over 100 automobile dealerships, so perhaps Warren Buffett doesn't pay a cent for repairs and maintenance.

Sure, but if you want to emulate him...yeah, get another car.

Quote from: bing101 on September 10, 2022, 11:43:12 AM(https://image.cnbcfm.com/api/v1/image/48336321-Omaha-Nebraska-Driveway-Homes-Billionaires-Warren-Buffett-CNBC.jpg?v=1350683097&w=1400&h=950)

When I talk a look at this home, the things that I think of are as follows:

• How much are the property taxes?
• How much are the utility bills?
• How long does it take to clean that size of a home especially that it's a two-story?

I'm sure it's a nice home, but it's just too big for me.

Quote from: ZLoth on September 12, 2022, 06:49:36 AM
How long does it take to clean that size of a home especially that it's a two-story?

It probably initially took a long time to set up the cleaning service, but now they're probably just on a schedule.

Quote from: JayhawkCO on September 12, 2022, 07:12:04 AM

Quote from: ZLoth on September 12, 2022, 06:49:36 AM
How long does it take to clean that size of a home especially that it's a two-story?

It probably initially took a long time to set up the cleaning service, but now they're probably just on a schedule.

Right? I think if I were to hit the lottery, I wouldn't necessarily upgrade my house to be too much bigger; beyond about five or six bedrooms I would struggle to come up with things to do with the space...but I would hire someone to help run the house. Having someone to do the dishes so I don't have to sounds way more luxurious than having a 15-bedroom mansion.

Warren Buffet already lives in what would be considered a $1+ million "mansion" in other parts of the country. Good for him being content, but it's far from "modest".

I seem to recall Suze Orman's early newspaper articles telling people to get into serious debt like college loans because it was "good debt" or something ("Don't worry about it!") like that and it would be paid off later. Seems her tune has changed on that. Wish I kept that article though, it was a hoot.

Dave Ramsey is popular simply because so many people are lousy with money that they make his techniques look like magic. Financial literacy is pretty poor in this country. A good percentage of the people featured on Ramsey's clips would buy more junk/non-essentials before putting food on the table or a roof over their head!

People are also pretty damned lazy and won't even do what websites call "hacks". Things like asking if there is a discount for paying in cash, cutting coupons, or stocking up on sale items. Way too many people focus on stuff like monthly payments, leading to paying more for things like cars and insurance (paid in full policy discounts have saved me thousands over the years). I never lease cars and even when I did trade a car after 3 years, I still came out ahead. I also don't have to deal with the pressure of having to find a new car when the lease period ends or worry about going over mileage.

Debt sucks. If there is one thing Orman gets right is that it allows other people to control and manipulate you on top of the anxiety it brings. Ever wonder why federal security clearances check your finances? Because you are more likely to take a bribe in exchange for state secrets.

As far as I'm concerned, there are only the following "good" debts:

• Short term debts that are paid off immediately.
• 0% financing on large purchases provided that you follow the terms.
• Loans where you can deduct the interest and property taxes, like a mortgage.

All must be within reason, of course. As I have stated before, I put all of my bills except my mortgage on my credit card, but that credit card is paid off every month (because it's one of the higher interest cards), and I get money back at the end of the year. I did use 0% financing when I replaced my air conditioner (paid more for a energy efficient variable speed) in 2020, and had it paid off within a year.

Yes, a mortgage is "good debt", but with caveats. In the past two years when, for multiple reasons (low interest rates, high demand for home because more space was needed), we had a surreal estate market, and people were trying to get into a home... any home... and were making some questionable decisions in the name of Fear Of Missing Out (FOMO), including waiting home inspections and appraisal contingencies, and are in homes that they can barely make the payments on, never mind the . With the rise in interest rates and the corresponding decrease in home demand, there is now a price correction, and some of these folks are now underwater. While I admit that I purchases my home in a slight rush, I also had my mortgage set up "ready to close", and did my research ahead of time, and stuck with my budget. Three years later, I am satisfied with my decision with my "modest" home especially when I look at the nearby apartment rental prices and home values. In my state, the homestead exemption which caps the rise in property taxes only applies to primary residences, not rental homes, and this year's assessments are going to be hard for those landlords who will pass that cost along in the form of a stiff increase in the rent.

As for car leases, I'm sure that the model fits some people, but I haven't found a business cases where it works for me. Because of the mortgage above, I'm holding off on purchasing a new car until after my home is paid off, plus the current car market is not in a good state to purchase a good car at a decent price. And, it'll probably be that way for another year.

I do agree that "financial literacy" education is in a sad shape. Some of this falls upon the parents who aren't great with finances themselves. Part of good financial planning is figuring out what is important to you first, and how you want to accomplish it. For me, the priority means I save up for retirement, followed by paying off my home. This means I will only take a good vacation every few years.

Student loans are indeed horrible nowadays.  We've gone from really being able to work through college (aside from some outliers that will probably die of a heart attack in their 40s), to Gen X low interest rates (<3%) to Gen Z loan shark rates (8%+).

Having two kids in college myself, have to say my kids managed their debt a lot better than I did (both graduating with minimal outstanding debt).  I'm still aghast with the burdens placed upon kids nowadays though:  They have to be more exact with guessing what the job market will be like years down the road so they don't get a useless degree and then they have to be financial wizards to avoid being strapped for the next few decades.

Our society is a dystopia.

Higher education is in deep trouble. 

I half-wonder if the mortgage interest deduction is overly relied on. The standard deduction for 2022 is $12,950. Married filing jointly is $25,900. Head of Household is $19,400.  If someone has no other deductions to itemize, that's quite a bit of interest one has to accumulate to make itemizing worthwhile, which means they either have a high-priced house, high interest rate, or both.  That's fine if it's affordable, what they wanted or within their budget. It's not fine if they went a bit overboard.

Or let's think of it this way: a single person paid $13,000 in interest. It's more advatagous to itemize. But they would've gotten $12,950 anyway. Are they deducting $13,000 of interest... or $50?

Quote from: jeffandnicole on September 13, 2022, 09:09:42 AM
I half-wonder if the mortgage interest deduction is overly relied on. The standard deduction for 2022 is $12,950. Married filing jointly is $25,900. Head of Household is $19,400.  If someone has no other deductions to itemize, that's quite a bit of interest one has to accumulate to make itemizing worthwhile, which means they either have a high-priced house, high interest rate, or both.  That's fine if it's affordable, what they wanted or within their budget. It's not fine if they went a bit overboard.

Or let's think of it this way: a single person paid $13,000 in interest. It's more advatagous to itemize. But they would've gotten $12,950 anyway. Are they deducting $13,000 of interest... or $50?

The new higher standard deduction (was it set to expire like other elements of the bill?) did throw things out of whack, but if you're itemizing when you should be taking the standard, you need to do what the government has been incentivizing everyone to do:  Buy tax preparation software.

Of course, the higher standard deduction did kill billions in charitable giving since the tax incentive dissipated.

Also remember that deductions are not a straight subtraction off one's tax bill, but adjustments to one's taxable income.

Quote from: Ted$8roadFan on September 13, 2022, 09:01:52 AM
Higher education is in deep trouble.

I don't really think the institutions are in trouble per se.  What is more in trouble is the mentality that going to college is manifest destiny for all.  Or at the very least, is the benefit of going to college versus seeking a career that doesn't require a huge amount student loan debt.

Quote from: Max Rockatansky on September 13, 2022, 10:26:40 AM

Quote from: Ted$8roadFan on September 13, 2022, 09:01:52 AM
Higher education is in deep trouble.

I don't really think the institutions are in trouble per se.  What is more in trouble is the mentality that going to college is manifest destiny for all.  Or at the very least, is the benefit of going to college versus seeking a career that doesn't require a huge amount student loan debt.

I think you'll see college attendance continue to increase, but the distribution will change. You'll have fewer people, especially among those not planning on going into law or medicine where grad school admission is ultra-competitive, opting for private universities over state schools, and you'll have more people in general opting for online and regional public institutions over the big state schools.

While I absolutely loved my experience at Notre Dame, and to a certain extent you can't put a price tag on that, the value added came nowhere close to what I had to pay in loans and interest.

Quote from: NWI_Irish96 on September 13, 2022, 10:33:59 AM

Quote from: Max Rockatansky on September 13, 2022, 10:26:40 AM

Quote from: Ted$8roadFan on September 13, 2022, 09:01:52 AM
Higher education is in deep trouble.

I don't really think the institutions are in trouble per se.  What is more in trouble is the mentality that going to college is manifest destiny for all.  Or at the very least, is the benefit of going to college versus seeking a career that doesn't require a huge amount student loan debt.

I think you'll see college attendance continue to increase, but the distribution will change. You'll have fewer people, especially among those not planning on going into law or medicine where grad school admission is ultra-competitive, opting for private universities over state schools, and you'll have more people in general opting for online and regional public institutions over the big state schools.

While I absolutely loved my experience at Notre Dame, and to a certain extent you can't put a price tag on that, the value added came nowhere close to what I had to pay in loans and interest.

My wife and I have had massively different approaches to our careers.  I basically only went to college at local schools when I had money and time, I sought out field experience early.  My field is heavily reliant on experience over education, her's is the opposite but is way more competitive.  She on the other hand went to a big four year school and incurred student debt from it.  I'm still at present moment ahead of her by about 20% on pay but I was able to invest far more since I didn't have student loan debt.  I predict she will pass by base work income in the next decade.  That's a pretty long game to play to get into a competitive field to only really have it start paying off approaching a decade and half working. 

If I could do it again I would have enlisted and took advantage of GI Bill.  Military experience generally equates in what I do so it could have been a potential boon to get a free four year degree. 

Just a few observations:

*  Warren Buffett was a congressman's son, so he was born on third base, and early in his career he was also a finance bro, so his fortune was seeded by successful speculation.  He is also a classic example of how the investment opportunities open to you increase with the amount of money you have available to invest.  He did not become the Sage of Omaha as a retail investor or solely through value investing.

*  The FIRE gurus (Mr. Money Mustache (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mr._Money_Mustache) being a classic example) tend to underplay the fact that their lifestyles are possible as a result of great financial success early in life, typically as a result of involvement in tech startups that took off.  Much of what they suggest amounts to "it takes money to save money."

*  Dave Ramsey is selling a message of redemption to the income-constrained working class:  it is no accident that much (nearly all?) of his shtick consists of holding up people who make money-management mistakes and saying, in effect, "Don't be like these degenerates."  Hence the constant use of words like stupid and wise in morally loaded ways--direct quote (https://www.forbes.com/sites/garrettgunderson/2021/01/28/how-well-does-dave-ramseys-advice-hold-up-to-scrutiny/?sh=5c2c365c71ce):  "100% of the people that built wealth saved money, on purpose, a lot. Some people do it poorly in a stupid money market account and make no money on their money. Others do it wisely in mutual funds that outperform the S&P 500."  It's not dispensing financial advice in a neutral manner:  it's building engagement through appeals to tribalism.

Quote from: Max Rockatansky on September 13, 2022, 10:26:40 AM

Quote from: Ted$8roadFan on September 13, 2022, 09:01:52 AM
Higher education is in deep trouble.

I don't really think the institutions are in trouble per se.  What is more in trouble is the mentality that going to college is manifest destiny for all.  Or at the very least, is the benefit of going to college versus seeking a career that doesn't require a huge amount student loan debt.

I agree that (a) college isn't for everyone and (b) there are a ton of jobs that require a college degree, but shouldn't, but if you think the situation with student lending for higher ed is bad, well, the trade schools and coding bootcamps are even worse.  With the latter, I took a data analytics bootcamp that was worth its weight in gold, but they didn't require a college degree to enter the program.  Never mind the fact that almost all of the jobs it was training you for required a college degree...

My wife attended college for one semester back in 2000.  We still haven't paid off her student loan.

Last year, we finally had enough in the bank to pay it off entirely.  But I knew our car was on its last leg, and I didn't want to pay off the last of our debt only to be stuck with having to buy a new vehicle.  But neither did I want to spend that money to buy something that's salable (a car) and be left with debt that's not (a student loan).  So I decided to just sit on the money and do neither.  People thought I was being foolish.  Then, later that year, the car threw a rod.  So now we have a new vehicle, but we also still have student loan debt.

We also don't know if it will qualify for Biden's student loan forgiveness program.  We meet the income requirement and she was a Pell grant recipient–however, the loan was government-backed but privately issued, the program it was issued under hasn't existed since 2009, and the loan has changed hands under consolidation two times over the years.  It's one of those grey areas.

Quote from: kphoger on September 13, 2022, 02:57:42 PMthe loan was government-backed but privately issued

Then it should qualify

Quote from: kphoger on September 13, 2022, 02:57:42 PMthe program it was issued under hasn't existed since 2009

Shouldn't matter

Quote from: kphoger on September 13, 2022, 02:57:42 PMand the loan has changed hands under consolidation two times over the years.

Also shouldn't matter

Quote from: abefroman329 on September 13, 2022, 03:15:40 PM

Quote from: kphoger on September 13, 2022, 02:57:42 PMand the loan has changed hands under consolidation two times over the years.

Also shouldn't matter

Yeah, well it's this part that gives me question marks:

Quote from: National Association of Student Financial Aid Administrators
Consolidated loans are eligible as long as all of the underlying loans that were consolidated were first disbursed on or before June 30, 2022. If a borrower consolidated federal loans into a private non-federal loan, the consolidated private loan is not eligible for debt relief, according to [the Department of Education].

We'll have to dig into it some more.

Quote from: kphoger on September 13, 2022, 03:36:04 PM

Quote from: abefroman329 on September 13, 2022, 03:15:40 PM

Quote from: kphoger on September 13, 2022, 02:57:42 PMand the loan has changed hands under consolidation two times over the years.

Also shouldn't matter

Yeah, well it's this part that gives me question marks:

Quote from: National Association of Student Financial Aid Administrators
Consolidated loans are eligible as long as all of the underlying loans that were consolidated were first disbursed on or before June 30, 2022. If a borrower consolidated federal loans into a private non-federal loan, the consolidated private loan is not eligible for debt relief, according to [the Department of Education].

We'll have to dig into it some more.

Oh, yeah, I thought you meant that the loan had been sold to another servicer.  Yeah, seems unlikely.

Quote from: abefroman329 on September 13, 2022, 03:38:51 PM

Quote from: kphoger on September 13, 2022, 03:36:04 PM

Quote from: abefroman329 on September 13, 2022, 03:15:40 PM

Quote from: kphoger on September 13, 2022, 02:57:42 PMand the loan has changed hands under consolidation two times over the years.

Also shouldn't matter

Yeah, well it's this part that gives me question marks:

Quote from: National Association of Student Financial Aid Administrators
Consolidated loans are eligible as long as all of the underlying loans that were consolidated were first disbursed on or before June 30, 2022. If a borrower consolidated federal loans into a private non-federal loan, the consolidated private loan is not eligible for debt relief, according to [the Department of Education].

We'll have to dig into it some more.

Oh, yeah, I thought you meant that the loan had been sold to another servicer.  Yeah, seems unlikely.

I'm not entirely sure how to tell if our loans were consolidated into "a private non-federal" or not.  How can I tell?

Quote from: Rothman on September 13, 2022, 08:50:19 AMStudent loans are indeed horrible nowadays.  We've gone from really being able to work through college (aside from some outliers that will probably die of a heart attack in their 40s), to Gen X low interest rates (<3%) to Gen Z loan shark rates (8%+).

There is a lower-cost path to higher education which is that you take your "core" general education classes at the community college level, then transfer over to the college/university levels. At the end, the employer only cares about your degree, and not really the path you got there. Unfortunately, too many parents tell the kids "You need to go to Prestigious U! Get the student loans!" without understanding the full consequences. Then, when the repayment time comes, you are just looking at the numbers and picking the lowest number, not realizing that it is only payment the interest and not paying down the actual principal. I actually got my degree by working fulltime, going to school part time, and saving up all my paid time off for major exam days.

One thing that troubles me is that we don't put more emphasis on the trade schools. Some of these trades, once you have the experience, pay some serious money, but we tend to look down on them here in the states.

Quote from: kphoger on September 13, 2022, 04:39:56 PMI'm not entirely sure how to tell if our loans were consolidated into "a private non-federal" or not.  How can I tell?

It's something you would have had to apply for.

So you have federal student loans, which don't really have any underwriting criteria at all, which means they don't use risk-based underwriting or pricing, which means everyone gets the same interest rate.

Then you have private student loans, which pretty much use the same risk-based underwriting and pricing as any other unsecured loan, which means you could get a better interest rate than federal student loans (or you could get a worse one).

So, in some situations, it would make sense to consolidate your federal student loans with a private lender, since then you'd get a better interest rate and a lower monthly payment.  But, again, if you (or your wife) had done that, then you would have had to apply to do it.

Quote from: kphoger on September 13, 2022, 04:39:56 PM

Quote from: abefroman329 on September 13, 2022, 03:38:51 PM

Quote from: kphoger on September 13, 2022, 03:36:04 PM

Quote from: abefroman329 on September 13, 2022, 03:15:40 PM

Quote from: kphoger on September 13, 2022, 02:57:42 PMand the loan has changed hands under consolidation two times over the years.

Also shouldn't matter

Yeah, well it's this part that gives me question marks:

Quote from: National Association of Student Financial Aid Administrators
Consolidated loans are eligible as long as all of the underlying loans that were consolidated were first disbursed on or before June 30, 2022. If a borrower consolidated federal loans into a private non-federal loan, the consolidated private loan is not eligible for debt relief, according to [the Department of Education].

We'll have to dig into it some more.

Oh, yeah, I thought you meant that the loan had been sold to another servicer.  Yeah, seems unlikely.

I'm not entirely sure how to tell if our loans were consolidated into "a private non-federal" or not.  How can I tell?

I had Direct Loan Consolidated Loans.  Still federal.

There's a site that can help studentaid.gov

Quote from: Rothman on September 13, 2022, 05:44:58 PM
There's a site that can help studentaid.gov

OK, so that's what I'm coming around to:  if the loans still show up under the studentaid.gov site, then does that mean they are still federal and therefore not private?  Do they disappear from that site if they're consolidated into a non-federal private loan?

Is there any penalty for applying and getting rejected? (i.e. is there a waiver application fee or a "under penalty of perjury I swear these loans are forgivable"?) If not, I would be apt to just apply for a waiver and let the government figure out whether I qualify or not.

For the sake of clarity, let me just specify that we have two "FFELP Consolidated" loans that appear on the studentaid.gov site.

Quote from: kphoger on September 13, 2022, 07:50:40 PMFor the sake of clarity, let me just specify that we have two "FFELP Consolidated" loans that appear on the studentaid.gov site.

AFAICT, that should mean you qualify for the debt forgiveness, since the types of private loans that don't are not visible on the federal system.

Quote from: J N Winkler on September 13, 2022, 08:35:46 PM

Quote from: kphoger on September 13, 2022, 07:50:40 PMFor the sake of clarity, let me just specify that we have two "FFELP Consolidated" loans that appear on the studentaid.gov site.

AFAICT, that should mean you qualify for the debt forgiveness, since the types of private loans that don't are not visible on the federal system.

I thought FFELP were in some sort of gray area that the Feds were sorting out still.

A 9/10/2022 webpage from a firm called Tate Law states:

Quote
Initially, the White House said that only those with loans held by the Education Department would qualify for debt cancellation. But the department later clarified that FFEL borrowers could consolidate their loans into a Federal Direct Consolidation Loan to qualify. ... Those with private student loans are locked out of it permanently. But borrowers with commercially held FFEL Loans can crack into the cancellation opportunity by consolidating into a Direct Consolidation Loan. Nearly all FFEL borrowers can consolidate – even those who already have an FFEL Consolidation Loan. (In that case, you're effectively refinancing the loans with the federal government.) The only people who can't consolidate are those with joint spousal consolidation loans. Federal law blocks their eligibility for consolidation.

https://www.tateesq.com/learn/what-is-a-ffelp-loan

Quote from: ZLoth on September 13, 2022, 05:10:14 PM

Quote from: Rothman on September 13, 2022, 08:50:19 AMStudent loans are indeed horrible nowadays.  We've gone from really being able to work through college (aside from some outliers that will probably die of a heart attack in their 40s), to Gen X low interest rates (<3%) to Gen Z loan shark rates (8%+).

There is a lower-cost path to higher education which is that you take your "core" general education classes at the community college level, then transfer over to the college/university levels.

This is precisely what I am doing for college. Better yet, I'm receiving it for free* thanks to a generous statewide program (https://dhewd.mo.gov/ppc/grants/aplusscholarship.php). The prospect of carrying a significantly higher amount of debt (not only because of tuition but also not being able to live at home) is what scared me out of attending my University of choice for four years: Missouri S&T. I do work, but let's just say I did go to a four year institution and lived by myself. The hours and wage I work for would likely not cover my expenses, that is, not without careful planning and extreme frugality.. if that.
*does not cover books and fees, only tuition.

Quote from: Scott5114 on September 13, 2022, 07:28:06 PM
Is there any penalty for applying and getting rejected? (i.e. is there a waiver application fee or a "under penalty of perjury I swear these loans are forgivable"?) If not, I would be apt to just apply for a waiver and let the government figure out whether I qualify or not.

Well, our next step now will be to try and consolidate our two already-consolidated loans into one federal direct consolidation loan–even though they don't appear to meet any of the requirements for doing so.  We'll see what happens...

Well, there went that.  The program has been struck down by a district judge as overreach by the President without legislative authority.  The expected appeal probably won't get anywhere.

We successfully consolidated our loans under the US Dept of Education, but it no longer matters.

Quote from: kphoger on November 11, 2022, 09:49:55 AM
Well, there went that.  The program has been struck down by a district judge as overreach by the President without legislative authority.  The expected appeal probably won't get anywhere.

We successfully consolidated our loans under the US Dept of Education, but it no longer matters.

Why would the appeal go nowhere?

Quote from: Rothman on November 11, 2022, 10:07:25 AM

Quote from: kphoger on November 11, 2022, 09:49:55 AM
Well, there went that.  The program has been struck down by a district judge as overreach by the President without legislative authority.  The expected appeal probably won't get anywhere.

We successfully consolidated our loans under the US Dept of Education, but it no longer matters.

Why would the appeal go nowhere?

Because it's going to the 5th Circuit Court of Appeals, which is one of the nation's most conservative.

Quote from: kphoger on November 11, 2022, 11:05:12 AM

Quote from: Rothman on November 11, 2022, 10:07:25 AM

Quote from: kphoger on November 11, 2022, 09:49:55 AM
Well, there went that.  The program has been struck down by a district judge as overreach by the President without legislative authority.  The expected appeal probably won't get anywhere.

We successfully consolidated our loans under the US Dept of Education, but it no longer matters.

Why would the appeal go nowhere?

Because it's going to the 5th Circuit Court of Appeals, which is one of the nation's most conservative.

There's also a challenge in a different circuit, so this is going to end up at the Supreme Court. This particular court has been both very conservative but also very strong defenders of executive power, so who knows which of those wins out over the other.

Quote from: NWI_Irish96 on November 11, 2022, 11:20:23 AM

Quote from: kphoger on November 11, 2022, 11:05:12 AM

Quote from: Rothman on November 11, 2022, 10:07:25 AM

Quote from: kphoger on November 11, 2022, 09:49:55 AM
Well, there went that.  The program has been struck down by a district judge as overreach by the President without legislative authority.  The expected appeal probably won't get anywhere.

We successfully consolidated our loans under the US Dept of Education, but it no longer matters.

Why would the appeal go nowhere?

Because it's going to the 5th Circuit Court of Appeals, which is one of the nation's most conservative.

There's also a challenge in a different circuit, so this is going to end up at the Supreme Court. This particular court has been both very conservative but also very strong defenders of executive power, so who knows which of those wins out over the other.

I read up more since asking.  It really isn't looking good.  Supreme Court doesn't have to hear the case and they're also conservative.

Student loan borrowers must not be that big of a faction of the voting constituency, or they've been disenfranchised for politicians being willing to snatch money out of their hands like this.

Quote from: NWI_Irish96 on November 11, 2022, 11:20:23 AM

Quote from: kphoger on November 11, 2022, 11:05:12 AM

Quote from: Rothman on November 11, 2022, 10:07:25 AM

Quote from: kphoger on November 11, 2022, 09:49:55 AM
Well, there went that.  The program has been struck down by a district judge as overreach by the President without legislative authority.  The expected appeal probably won't get anywhere.

We successfully consolidated our loans under the US Dept of Education, but it no longer matters.

Why would the appeal go nowhere?

Because it's going to the 5th Circuit Court of Appeals, which is one of the nation's most conservative.

There's also a challenge in a different circuit, so this is going to end up at the Supreme Court. This particular court has been both very conservative but also very strong defenders of executive power, so who knows which of those wins out over the other.

If it ends up in the Supreme Court (if it is even heard) odds are the student loan relief is still being tossed. 

Quote from: Rothman on November 11, 2022, 11:24:04 AM
Student loan borrowers must not be that big of a faction of the voting constituency, or they've been disenfranchised for politicians being willing to snatch money out of their hands like this.

To be fair, I never had the money in my hands to begin with.  They've just been told the President doesn't have the authority to put it in my hands (which, honestly, is a decision I fundamentally agree with).  I mean, we knew this was possibility going in.  It's just still a bummer.

Quote from: Rothman on November 11, 2022, 11:24:04 AM

Quote from: NWI_Irish96 on November 11, 2022, 11:20:23 AM

Quote from: kphoger on November 11, 2022, 11:05:12 AM

Quote from: Rothman on November 11, 2022, 10:07:25 AM

Quote from: kphoger on November 11, 2022, 09:49:55 AM
Well, there went that.  The program has been struck down by a district judge as overreach by the President without legislative authority.  The expected appeal probably won't get anywhere.

We successfully consolidated our loans under the US Dept of Education, but it no longer matters.

Why would the appeal go nowhere?

Because it's going to the 5th Circuit Court of Appeals, which is one of the nation's most conservative.

There's also a challenge in a different circuit, so this is going to end up at the Supreme Court. This particular court has been both very conservative but also very strong defenders of executive power, so who knows which of those wins out over the other.

I read up more since asking.  It really isn't looking good.  Supreme Court doesn't have to hear the case and they're also conservative.

Student loan borrowers must not be that big of a faction of the voting constituency, or they've been disenfranchised for politicians being willing to snatch money out of their hands like this.

Elections have passed, and in 2 years things will be forgotten. Back to business as usual.

Quote from: kalvado on November 11, 2022, 11:59:24 AM

Quote from: Rothman on November 11, 2022, 11:24:04 AM

Quote from: NWI_Irish96 on November 11, 2022, 11:20:23 AM

Quote from: kphoger on November 11, 2022, 11:05:12 AM

Quote from: Rothman on November 11, 2022, 10:07:25 AM

Quote from: kphoger on November 11, 2022, 09:49:55 AM
Well, there went that.  The program has been struck down by a district judge as overreach by the President without legislative authority.  The expected appeal probably won't get anywhere.

We successfully consolidated our loans under the US Dept of Education, but it no longer matters.

Why would the appeal go nowhere?

Because it's going to the 5th Circuit Court of Appeals, which is one of the nation's most conservative.

There's also a challenge in a different circuit, so this is going to end up at the Supreme Court. This particular court has been both very conservative but also very strong defenders of executive power, so who knows which of those wins out over the other.

I read up more since asking.  It really isn't looking good.  Supreme Court doesn't have to hear the case and they're also conservative.

Student loan borrowers must not be that big of a faction of the voting constituency, or they've been disenfranchised for politicians being willing to snatch money out of their hands like this.

Elections have passed, and in 2 years things will be forgotten. Back to business as usual.

And also, the kind, caring and über-compassionate people over at the Internal Revenue Service will want to all know about any of your forgiven debts and be wanting to have their concerns regarding them to be fully addressed in the year that they are forgiven.

Mike

I wouldn't give up on student loan debt relief until all of the legal challenges have played out.  The percentage of the US population that is affected is fairly large--26 million people, or almost 10%--so I frankly doubt the opponents really want to catch the car they are chasing.  Tactical patience is a fundamental rule when dealing with gridlock.

Quote from: mgk920 on November 11, 2022, 12:21:50 PMAnd also, the kind, caring and über-compassionate people over at the Internal Revenue Service will want to all know about any of your forgiven debts and be wanting to have their concerns regarding them to be fully addressed in the year that they are forgiven.

Nope!  Not for this debt forgiveness action.  It is specifically exempt from federal income tax (thanks to ARPA, supposedly, though I haven't seen chapter and verse cited).  But there is the potential for state income tax liability.

Quote from: mgk920 on November 11, 2022, 12:19:11 PM
And also, the kind, caring and über-compassionate people over at the Internal Revenue Service will want to all know about any of your forgiven debts and be wanting to have their concerns regarding them to be fully addressed in the year that any such debts are forgiven.

That was one of the thrusts of the lawsuit that was put forth a few weeks ago:  a handful of states (but none of the ones bringing the suit, IIRC) claim income tax on debt forgiveness payments, whereas Biden's plan explicitly prohibited such.  The states claimed that that part of the plan would result in financial damages to such states.  The counterargument is that the money wasn't actually guaranteed to the states in the first place, therefore the damages were only hypothetical:  after all, if people simply paid off their loans, then the hypothetical wouldn't apply.

The other thrust is that the plan would prompt people who held FFEL loans to rush and consolidate them with the US Department of Education in order to qualify–and, as those loans were privately held by quasi-state firms with lots of asterisks, some states could stand to lose out by the loan holders all jumping ship en masse.  (This perfectly describes our own personal situation.  My wife had an FFEL loan, and we rushed to consolidated it with the Dept of Ed.)

Quote from: kalvado on November 11, 2022, 11:59:24 AM

Quote from: Rothman on November 11, 2022, 11:24:04 AM

Quote from: NWI_Irish96 on November 11, 2022, 11:20:23 AM

Quote from: kphoger on November 11, 2022, 11:05:12 AM

Quote from: Rothman on November 11, 2022, 10:07:25 AM

Quote from: kphoger on November 11, 2022, 09:49:55 AM
Well, there went that.  The program has been struck down by a district judge as overreach by the President without legislative authority.  The expected appeal probably won't get anywhere.

We successfully consolidated our loans under the US Dept of Education, but it no longer matters.

Why would the appeal go nowhere?

Because it's going to the 5th Circuit Court of Appeals, which is one of the nation's most conservative.

There's also a challenge in a different circuit, so this is going to end up at the Supreme Court. This particular court has been both very conservative but also very strong defenders of executive power, so who knows which of those wins out over the other.

I read up more since asking.  It really isn't looking good.  Supreme Court doesn't have to hear the case and they're also conservative.

Student loan borrowers must not be that big of a faction of the voting constituency, or they've been disenfranchised for politicians being willing to snatch money out of their hands like this.

Elections have passed, and in 2 years things will be forgotten. Back to business as usual.

Wonder what business as usual means.  Probably another upcoming one-term Republican president.

Quote from: J N Winkler on November 11, 2022, 12:26:00 PM
Nope!  Not for this debt forgiveness action.  It is specifically exempt from federal income tax (thanks to ARPA, supposedly, though I haven't seen chapter and verse cited).  But there is the potential for state income tax liability.

SEC. 9675. MODIFICATION OF TREATMENT OF STUDENT LOAN FORGIVENESS.

    (a) In General.--Section 108(f) of the Internal Revenue Code of 1986
is amended by striking paragraph (5) and inserting the following:
            ``(5) Special rule for discharges in 2021 through 2025.--
        Gross income does not include any amount which (but for this
        subsection) would be includible in gross income by reason of the
        discharge (in whole or in part) after December 31, 2020, and
        before January 1, 2026, of--
                    ``(A) any loan provided expressly for postsecondary
                educational expenses, regardless of whether provided
                through the educational institution or directly to the
                borrower, if such loan was made, insured, or guaranteed
                by--
                          ``(i) the United States, or an instrumentality
                      or agency thereof,
                          ``(ii) a State, territory, or possession of
                      the United States, or the District of Columbia, or
                      any political subdivision thereof, or
                          ``(iii) an eligible educational institution
                      (as defined in section 25A),
                    ``(B) any private education loan (as defined in
                section 140(a)(7) of the Truth in Lending Act),
                    ``(C) any loan made by any educational organization
                described in section 170(b)(1)(A)(ii) if such loan is
                made--
                          ``(i) pursuant to an agreement with any entity
                      described in subparagraph (A) or any private
                      education lender (as defined in section 140(a) of
                      the Truth in Lending Act) under which the funds
                      from which the loan was made were provided to such
                      educational organization, or
                          ``(ii) pursuant to a program of such
                      educational organization which is designed to
                      encourage its students to serve in occupations
                      with unmet needs or in areas with unmet needs and
                      under which the services provided by the students
                      (or former students) are for or under the
                      direction of a governmental unit or an
                      organization described in section 501(c)(3) and
                      exempt from tax under section 501(a), or
                    ``(D) any loan made by an educational organization
                described in section 170(b)(1)(A)(ii) or by an
                organization exempt from tax under section 501(a) to
                refinance a loan to an individual to assist the
                individual in attending any such educational
                organization but only if the refinancing loan is
                pursuant to a program of the refinancing organization
                which is designed as described in subparagraph (C)(ii).
        The preceding sentence shall not apply to the discharge of a
        loan made by an organization described in subparagraph (C) or
        made by a private education lender (as defined in section
        140(a)(7) of the Truth in Lending Act) if the discharge is on
        account of services performed for either such organization or
        for such private education lender.''.

    (b) <>  Effective Date.--The amendment made by
this section shall apply to discharges of loans after December 31, 2020.

My understanding of this is that all of the cases against the program are weak, because the standing of the plaintiffs have been weak. That is, in order to be able to bring a case to court, the plaintiff must be able to demonstrate that they were harmed in some tangible way by the defendant's actions. That is kind of hard to do with "the government is not collecting money it is owed", especially because courts have ruled in the past that merely being a taxpayer does not grant an entity standing in cases having to do with the government spending (or in this case, not collecting) tax money. In this case, the supposed aggrieved parties are people who were denied access to the program, and resolving "these people couldn't get into the program" with the relief of "destroy the entire program so nobody can get into it" is...well, you insert your own adjective.

So Judge Pittman is probably out of line here in striking the program down. The government has a crystal-clear path here to getting his ruling thrown out here on technical grounds, i.e. asking the Fifth Circuit to rule on standing rather than the merits of the case itself, thus hopefully sidestepping any political opinions of the judges themselves. In order to rule against the government and allow the throw-out to stand, the Fifth Circuit basically has to put its fingers in its ears and go "la la la la la I've never seen a law book before what is precedent".

I'd welcome input from those with actual legal experience here in case I've gotten any of the details wrong.

Given upper court rulings lately that have totally ignored precedent in favor of current political dogma...don't give me hope.

I wonder if this would have substantially changed midterm election results had it been announced a week earlier.

Quote from: US 89 on November 12, 2022, 09:51:20 AM
I wonder if this would have substantially changed midterm election results had it been announced a week earlier.

Doubtful–there have already been a few "district court strikes it down and circuit court reverses the strike-down" cycles before the elections.

Quote from: SectorZ on September 04, 2022, 08:18:06 AM
Regarding the discussion of buying a home with cash, I feel like living around Boston that buying a house with cash is so foreign due to needing to be fairly well off to do so.

Heck I just had a former neighbor refinance a 30 yr. mortgage on his condo at age 70. The bank didn't bat an eye that he has pretty much a 100% chance of not being alive by the end.

Ah, the "mort" in "mortgage" means death.  That means unlike most debts if you die still owing some one it, your heirs still have to pay it or lose the property.

Sigh.... this has resulted in an argument between my mother and I today...

We previously had a George Foreman GR10ABW Champ Grill with Bun Warmer (https://amzn.to/3FYllW1) that served us well for 15 years. However, the handle on the bun warmer broke off recently, and the lid hit the kitchen counter and put in a noticeable crack. Finding the replacement parts were impossible, so I checked, and a replacement non-stick griller, minus bun warmer (https://amzn.to/3VVyvZi) was just $30. We weren't using the bun warmer anyways, so no big loss. Oh boy! My mother got on my case because "it wasn't broken, it was still cooking". My pushback was that it was a safety issue as it was a hot surface, plus I could not get replacement parts to fix it.

A common theme among suburban townships around here is their extreme cheapness when it comes to their infrastructures.  Many of their streets are downright awful.  They will be in a real world of hurt when their late 20 century tax bases (ie, the big mall and the Big Box™ retailers. etc) go away and they can no longer ignore their falling apart streets.  And they thought that they were being smart and frugal....

Mike

Quote from: ZLoth on December 13, 2022, 12:11:30 PM
Sigh.... this has resulted in an argument between my mother and I today...

We previously had a George Foreman GR10ABW Champ Grill with Bun Warmer (https://amzn.to/3FYllW1) that served us well for 15 years. However, the handle on the bun warmer broke off recently, and the lid hit the kitchen counter and put in a noticeable crack. Finding the replacement parts were impossible, so I checked, and a replacement non-stick griller, minus bun warmer (https://amzn.to/3VVyvZi) was just $30. We weren't using the bun warmer anyways, so no big loss. Oh boy! My mother got on my case because "it wasn't broken, it was still cooking". My pushback was that it was a safety issue as it was a hot surface, plus I could not get replacement parts to fix it.

This stuff makes me insane(r). My mom will spend 20 minutes with a rubber scraper to get 1/4 teaspoon of mayo out of what normal people would consider an empty jar. We had to get a new fridge to replace the one she's had since 1978. She wanted to get it repaired. I don't know a lot, but it seems like something that old... yeah.
Very similar argument.

Quote from: zachary_amaryllis on December 15, 2022, 10:38:56 AM

Quote from: ZLoth on December 13, 2022, 12:11:30 PM
Sigh.... this has resulted in an argument between my mother and I today...

We previously had a George Foreman GR10ABW Champ Grill with Bun Warmer (https://amzn.to/3FYllW1) that served us well for 15 years. However, the handle on the bun warmer broke off recently, and the lid hit the kitchen counter and put in a noticeable crack. Finding the replacement parts were impossible, so I checked, and a replacement non-stick griller, minus bun warmer (https://amzn.to/3VVyvZi) was just $30. We weren't using the bun warmer anyways, so no big loss. Oh boy! My mother got on my case because "it wasn't broken, it was still cooking". My pushback was that it was a safety issue as it was a hot surface, plus I could not get replacement parts to fix it.

This stuff makes me insane(r). My mom will spend 20 minutes with a rubber scraper to get 1/4 teaspoon of mayo out of what normal people would consider an empty jar. We had to get a new fridge to replace the one she's had since 1978. She wanted to get it repaired. I don't know a lot, but it seems like something that old... yeah.
Very similar argument.

Especially since we are talking about objects that don't go technologically obsolete like computers and mobile phones, and aren't expensive to replace.

I don't know that I'd have replaced that George Foreman, but that has more to do with the fact that it would have to get in line behind a whole bunch of other things I need to spend money on more pressingly. If it was still usable and not, like, an active fire hazard I'd probably just keep using it.

Quote from: Scott5114 on December 15, 2022, 12:47:05 PM
I don't know that I'd have replaced that George Foreman, but that has more to do with the fact that it would have to get in line behind a whole bunch of other things I need to spend money on more pressingly. If it was still usable and not, like, an active fire hazard I'd probably just keep using it.

One thing is upgrade of a working thing, repairing faulty old piece is another story.
Sometimes repairs can be done relatively easily; sometimes parts availability would be a problem (is it legal to recharge a fridge with 1978 refrigerant today?), sometimes benefits of upgrade, if that is possible, make repairs a non-starter. Sometimes legacy has to be carried over despite all costs.

My bet there is no real reason to have 40 year old refrigerator serviced beyond minor cord or plug fixes.

Quote from: kalvado on December 15, 2022, 03:21:37 PM

Quote from: Scott5114 on December 15, 2022, 12:47:05 PM
I don't know that I'd have replaced that George Foreman, but that has more to do with the fact that it would have to get in line behind a whole bunch of other things I need to spend money on more pressingly. If it was still usable and not, like, an active fire hazard I'd probably just keep using it.

One thing is upgrade of a working thing, repairing faulty old piece is another story.
Sometimes repairs can be done relatively easily; sometimes parts availability would be a problem (is it legal to recharge a fridge with 1978 refrigerant today?), sometimes benefits of upgrade, if that is possible, make repairs a non-starter. Sometimes legacy has to be carried over despite all costs.

My bet there is no real reason to have 40 year old refrigerator serviced beyond minor cord or plug fixes.

Well, the George Foreman ZLoth was talking about had a cracked lid and a missing handle. Not having seen the crack myself, I don't know to what extent it was just a cosmetic thing (he mentioned a "safety issue" but that could mean anything between "fire hazard" and "it is slightly easier to burn yourself if you're careless"), but I generally have no qualms about using things that are damaged so long as they aren't entirely unusable for their purpose. My wicker laundry hamper has had one of its handles held together by gaffer tape for years now, for instance; the cloth liner covers the handles so it's not really visibly obvious. Even if it was, it lives in my bedroom so the only person who would ever see it is me.

As for servicing of outdated appliances, it is possible that someone may value the design or construction of an old appliance to the extent that they would rather repair it, even if that is not the easiest or most economical option, because comparable products do not exist in the new-product market. I pretty much exclusively use 1980s IBM keyboards if I have any say in the matter. Recently I had one that was starting to have the spacebar double-trigger, so my first inclination was to open it up and try cleaning the contacts, but I ended up opting to just swap it out for another one of the same age and model that I had on hand and make it future me's problem.

I could, of course, easily buy a brand new keyboard on Amazon for $15, but practically no new keyboard on the market is built like a tank the way the Model M is. When mine starts to actually wear out I will probably move heaven and earth to find parts to keep the damn thing in service.

I used a George Foreman well past the time its non-stick coating had eroded on the bottom half, because I thought they were much more expensive than they actually are.

We don't even own a George Foreman grill--the unique selling point (draining the grease as the meat cooks) isn't really something we need.

Quote from: Scott5114 on December 15, 2022, 03:40:48 PM

Quote from: kalvado on December 15, 2022, 03:21:37 PM

Quote from: Scott5114 on December 15, 2022, 12:47:05 PM
I don't know that I'd have replaced that George Foreman, but that has more to do with the fact that it would have to get in line behind a whole bunch of other things I need to spend money on more pressingly. If it was still usable and not, like, an active fire hazard I'd probably just keep using it.

One thing is upgrade of a working thing, repairing faulty old piece is another story.
Sometimes repairs can be done relatively easily; sometimes parts availability would be a problem (is it legal to recharge a fridge with 1978 refrigerant today?), sometimes benefits of upgrade, if that is possible, make repairs a non-starter. Sometimes legacy has to be carried over despite all costs.

My bet there is no real reason to have 40 year old refrigerator serviced beyond minor cord or plug fixes.

Well, the George Foreman ZLoth was talking about had a cracked lid and a missing handle. Not having seen the crack myself, I don't know to what extent it was just a cosmetic thing (he mentioned a "safety issue" but that could mean anything between "fire hazard" and "it is slightly easier to burn yourself if you're careless"), but I generally have no qualms about using things that are damaged so long as they aren't entirely unusable for their purpose. My wicker laundry hamper has had one of its handles held together by gaffer tape for years now, for instance; the cloth liner covers the handles so it's not really visibly obvious. Even if it was, it lives in my bedroom so the only person who would ever see it is me.

As for servicing of outdated appliances, it is possible that someone may value the design or construction of an old appliance to the extent that they would rather repair it, even if that is not the easiest or most economical option, because comparable products do not exist in the new-product market. I pretty much exclusively use 1980s IBM keyboards if I have any say in the matter. Recently I had one that was starting to have the spacebar double-trigger, so my first inclination was to open it up and try cleaning the contacts, but I ended up opting to just swap it out for another one of the same age and model that I had on hand and make it future me's problem.

I could, of course, easily buy a brand new keyboard on Amazon for $15, but practically no new keyboard on the market is built like a tank the way the Model M is. When mine starts to actually wear out I will probably move heaven and earth to find parts to keep the damn thing in service.

Tastes, apparently, differ - I remember those keyboards, and I am not a fan. I had a similar workout weight-grade Dell keyboard for a while, no regrets once I forgot hot soldering iron on  top (well, it STUNK!)
As for "built like a tank" - I am not sure that is actually an advantage. I would rather get a new one once in a while without a stockpile of crumbs and hair inside. If you are interested, I should have a half-male mouse somewhere (mouse with only one ball). Stockpile of crap on the ball and rollers is included...

The switch action on modern keyboards is reminiscent of sticking one's finger in a jar of peanut butter. If it doesn't feel and sound like I'm using a typewriter I'm not interested.

Quote from: Scott5114 on December 15, 2022, 03:40:48 PM
no new keyboard on the market

I'm still hoping Santa will drop a PS/2 to USB-A adapter in my stocking.

Quote from: kphoger on December 15, 2022, 04:41:51 PM

Quote from: Scott5114 on December 15, 2022, 03:40:48 PM
no new keyboard on the market

I'm still hoping Santa will drop a PS/2 to USB-A adapter in my stocking.

that has to be supported by the keyboard. I don't think older  ps2 keyboards would work that way.
setting up some small microcontroller as a middle man - like pi pico - should be pretty doable though 

I got a Ducky keyboard with Cherry MX Blue switches.  I love the clicky mechanical keyboards...

I was using a PS2 keyboard plugged through an adapter to a USB port on my work computer and it worked fine.

At home I have a Goldtouch keyboard and I really like the feel of the keys.  Not peanut buttery at all.

Quote from: Scott5114 on December 15, 2022, 03:40:48 PMAs for servicing of outdated appliances, it is possible that someone may value the design or construction of an old appliance to the extent that they would rather repair it, even if that is not the easiest or most economical option, because comparable products do not exist in the new-product market. I pretty much exclusively use 1980s IBM keyboards if I have any say in the matter. Recently I had one that was starting to have the spacebar double-trigger, so my first inclination was to open it up and try cleaning the contacts, but I ended up opting to just swap it out for another one of the same age and model that I had on hand and make it future me's problem.

I could, of course, easily buy a brand new keyboard on Amazon for $15, but practically no new keyboard on the market is built like a tank the way the Model M is. When mine starts to actually wear out I will probably move heaven and earth to find parts to keep the damn thing in service.

The Model M keyboards are legendary, and I can understand why you love one. There is now a New Model M by UniComp that costs a little over $100 and isn't through Amazon. Unfortunately, due to supply chain issues with the microcontroller, they aren't promising any order fulfillments until late January, 2023 minimum.

Trust me, your wrists would appreciate it if you spent more than $15 for a keyboard, especially if you spend the entire day and evening earning a paycheck from it. My go-to keyboard has been the Microsoft Natural Ergonomic Keyboard 4000 which was introduced in 2005 and discontinued on 2019, and I've been through several of those over years, including destroying several of them through spilling a drink into them. The last time I ordered one was at the beginning of 2019 for $40 each, but, as a discontinued product, it is now easily listed as $400. :-o Time to find a different model, even if it means I will also go with a Elgato Stream Deck Mini (https://amzn.to/3j9hXOY) to launch several of my go-to programs such as Notepad++ (https://markholtz.info/npp) and KeePass (https://markholtz.info/keepass). I also dislike that several of the ergo keyboard designs available try to go away from the traditional keyboard design, especially with the placement of the arrow keys and the Insert/Delete/Home/End/PageUp/PageDown keys. :banghead:

What you may want to do is go over to Amazon and search for a keyboard switch tester (https://amzn.to/3Pve4Qk). This gives you a sampler of the different keyboard switches so that you can test it out and see what you like, including clicky and non-clicky versions and the different amount of squishiness.

Man I'm totally happy with my $10 Logitech keyboards from Walmart, though I do like the one that came with my current (Dell) PC and may replace in-kind when needed.

Quote from: Scott5114 on December 15, 2022, 04:39:42 PM
The switch action on modern keyboards is reminiscent of sticking one's finger in a jar of peanut butter. If it doesn't feel and sound like I'm using a typewriter I'm not interested.

I like the old-school clickety-clackers myself. I can't find the real old IBM ones someone mentioned upthread. But have one of those Corsair RGB ones, that is just delightfully clicky-clacky and feels nice to me.

Quote from: ZLoth on December 16, 2022, 04:28:23 AM

Quote from: Scott5114 on December 15, 2022, 03:40:48 PMAs for servicing of outdated appliances, it is possible that someone may value the design or construction of an old appliance to the extent that they would rather repair it, even if that is not the easiest or most economical option, because comparable products do not exist in the new-product market. I pretty much exclusively use 1980s IBM keyboards if I have any say in the matter. Recently I had one that was starting to have the spacebar double-trigger, so my first inclination was to open it up and try cleaning the contacts, but I ended up opting to just swap it out for another one of the same age and model that I had on hand and make it future me's problem.

I could, of course, easily buy a brand new keyboard on Amazon for $15, but practically no new keyboard on the market is built like a tank the way the Model M is. When mine starts to actually wear out I will probably move heaven and earth to find parts to keep the damn thing in service.

The Model M keyboards are legendary, and I can understand why you love one. There is now a New Model M by UniComp that costs a little over $100 and isn't through Amazon. Unfortunately, due to supply chain issues with the microcontroller, they aren't promising any order fulfillments until late January, 2023 minimum.

Trust me, your wrists would appreciate it if you spent more than $15 for a keyboard, especially if you spend the entire day and evening earning a paycheck from it. My go-to keyboard has been the Microsoft Natural Ergonomic Keyboard 4000 which was introduced in 2005 and discontinued on 2019, and I've been through several of those over years, including destroying several of them through spilling a drink into them. The last time I ordered one was at the beginning of 2019 for $40 each, but, as a discontinued product, it is now easily listed as $400. :-o Time to find a different model, even if it means I will also go with a Elgato Stream Deck Mini (https://amzn.to/3j9hXOY) to launch several of my go-to programs such as Notepad++ (https://markholtz.info/npp) and KeePass (https://markholtz.info/keepass). I also dislike that several of the ergo keyboard designs available try to go away from the traditional keyboard design, especially with the placement of the arrow keys and the Insert/Delete/Home/End/PageUp/PageDown keys. :banghead:

What you may want to do is go over to Amazon and search for a keyboard switch tester (https://amzn.to/3Pve4Qk). This gives you a sampler of the different keyboard switches so that you can test it out and see what you like, including clicky and non-clicky versions and the different amount of squishiness.

I have a Goldtouch V2 and I'm very happy with it.  It doesn't have the clickity of the model M but there's great tactile feedback.  I see they're still available with no wait either direct from Goldtouch or via Amazon.

Quote from: ZLoth on December 16, 2022, 04:28:23 AM
There is now a New Model M by UniComp that costs a little over $100 and isn't through Amazon. Unfortunately, due to supply chain issues with the microcontroller, they aren't promising any order fulfillments until late January, 2023 minimum.

Neither frugality nor extreme cheapskate.   :biggrin:

Quote from: kphoger on December 16, 2022, 09:56:35 AM

Quote from: ZLoth on December 16, 2022, 04:28:23 AM
There is now a New Model M by UniComp that costs a little over $100 and isn't through Amazon. Unfortunately, due to supply chain issues with the microcontroller, they aren't promising any order fulfillments until late January, 2023 minimum.

Neither frugality nor extreme cheapskate.   :biggrin:

More like antique styled for those who cannot afford true antique

I really wonder - if those old keyboards are so great, why no manufacturer jumps on a chance to revive old model for some modest premium? Are they really that great? It's hard to judge for me, I don't have to  type 50k  symbols a  day to earn my paycheck...

Quote from: kalvado on December 16, 2022, 11:34:25 AM
if those old keyboards are so great, why no manufacturer jumps on a chance to revive old model for some modest premium?

There are plenty of new mechanical keyboards being sold for a modest premium.

https://www.pcmag.com/picks/the-best-mechanical-keyboards
https://www.pcgamer.com/best-mechanical-keyboard/
https://www.wired.com/gallery/best-keyboards/

Quote from: kalvado on December 16, 2022, 11:34:25 AMI really wonder - if those old keyboards are so great, why no manufacturer jumps on a chance to revive old model for some modest premium? Are they really that great? It's hard to judge for me, I don't have to type 50k symbols a day to earn my paycheck...

You'll be surprised at some of the keyboards and the premium pricing that are attached to them. But then again, wrist sprain injury and carpal tunnel are serious problems. I have a Logitech K400 Plus Wireless Touch TV Keyboard (https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B014EUQOGK/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1) which I will be hooking up to a old computer which is being repurposed to a home theater computer. For short bits of typing and mouse navigation, it's fine. But use it for more than a few minutes, and it becomes a pain. The key travel is too short, and the keyboard is just too small. I will also be installing a VNC server on that computer so that I can access it remotely.

Quote from: ZLoth on December 16, 2022, 12:46:31 PM

Quote from: kalvado on December 16, 2022, 11:34:25 AMI really wonder - if those old keyboards are so great, why no manufacturer jumps on a chance to revive old model for some modest premium? Are they really that great? It's hard to judge for me, I don't have to type 50k symbols a day to earn my paycheck...

You'll be surprised at some of the keyboards and the premium pricing that are attached to them. But then again, wrist sprain injury and carpal tunnel are serious problems. I have a Logitech K400 Plus Wireless Touch TV Keyboard (https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B014EUQOGK/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1) which I will be hooking up to a old computer which is being repurposed to a home theater computer. For short bits of typing and mouse navigation, it's fine. But use it for more than a few minutes, and it becomes a pain. The key travel is too short, and the keyboard is just too small. I will also be installing a VNC server on that computer so that I can access it remotely.

well, keyboard used once in a while and keyboard used 8 hours a day are totally different subjects. I have no doubt that for those using keyboard as a main tool for work keyboard ergonomics is vital. But my impression is that keyboard itself is a small part of the deal at best. Desk position, wrist position, seat height, wrist support are definitely important even for me with my pretty modest amount of typing.  Maybe it's worth putting in a different thread - and I am sure there is approximately zillion  of such threads on Reddit and elsewhere.
But for me key travel and sound are not really something critical. I can deal with simple cheap keyboard.
Although... I just checked keyboard I am using to type this - and it is $80 on amazon...  :-/

Quote from: kalvado on December 16, 2022, 01:46:45 PMWell, keyboard used once in a while and keyboard used 8 hours a day are totally different subjects. I have no doubt that for those using keyboard as a main tool for work keyboard ergonomics is vital. But my impression is that keyboard itself is a small part of the deal at best. Desk position, wrist position, seat height, wrist support are definitely important even for me with my pretty modest amount of typing.  Maybe it's worth putting in a different thread - and I am sure there is approximately zillion  of such threads on Reddit and elsewhere.

I work with typed words and have had to navigate these ergonomic considerations.  Yes, the variables picked out in bold are important, as are screen height, solid angle subtended by each typed character, and the stability of the keyboard.

I have never had problems with carpal tunnel syndrome, but I have discovered that having the top of the screen no lower than eye height and having typed letters at an easy-to-read size are critical to avoiding posture problems and upper-back pain.  It also helps to position the keyboard in such a way that the arms rest naturally at the sides.  For a person sitting in a typical office chair, this means placing it on the thighs just behind the knees with chair height adjusted so that the tops of the thighs are level.  Generally speaking, only 102-key boards with regular-sized keys have the required width and heft to stay in this position for minutes at a stretch.  Ideally, the keyboard should also be wireless to avoid having a cable applying traction.

While I'm willing to accept significant compromises when travelling, I have found I really need a keyboard with normal-sized keys and some heft for fluent and error-free typing.  I've tried folding Bluetooth keyboards and discovered they're a pain to use--they're forever squirming and the keys are too small for comfortable touch-typing.  When I was going on the road with an older laptop, I brought along a wired 102-key board.  These days I travel with Android devices and use a Logitech K480 Bluetooth keyboard (https://www.amazon.com/Logitech-Bluetooth-Multi-Device-Keyboard-K480/dp/B00MUTWLW4/ref=sr_1_1), which is a bit narrower than I like (I have to keep my knees together), but has normal-sized keys and no real annoyances other than a fraction-of-a-second delay for Shift that leads to capitalization errors at my usual typing pace.

Quote from: kalvado on December 16, 2022, 01:46:45 PMBut for me key travel and sound are not really something critical. I can deal with simple cheap keyboard.

I don't know that I'd describe myself as a key feel purist, and as a deaf person, I basically don't care about key noise on my own account.  However, I've discovered that it helps to have good key feedback when typing heavily.  When I was visiting archives regularly, I also had to come up with strategies for dealing with other users who objected to the noise of my typing.  At one such place I eventually started using a board with a springier feel and learned how to work the seat assignment system to position myself at the less-used end of the reading room (the system defaulted to assigning seats at lower-numbered tables first).

I got my first Model M for free–I did a project in my high school computer class that allowed me to choose the hardware I wanted from the school computer graveyard to install Ubuntu 5.10 on it (this was intended as a demonstration of how different operating systems had different system requirements). I spied a Model M while I was up there, nabbed it as the keyboard for that machine, and used it happily all year. It was already nearly 20 years old then–this would have been 2005 and the keyboard was made in 1987.

At the end of the school year, the computer teacher, who was also the school newspaper advisor, was stressed to the max because her editor was a graduating senior and had basically just bailed out of doing the last paper for the year. I asked her "If I put the paper together, can I keep this keyboard?" She took one look at the ancient keyboard and said "It's yours." The paper came out on time and I typed this post on that same keyboard.

Quote from: J N Winkler on December 16, 2022, 02:52:06 PMWhile I'm willing to accept significant compromises when travelling, I have found I really need a keyboard with normal-sized keys and some heft for fluent and error-free typing.  I've tried folding Bluetooth keyboards and discovered they're a pain to use--they're forever squirming and the keys are too small for comfortable touch-typing.  When I was going on the road with an older laptop, I brought along a wired 102-key board.

Uhhh.... this!

For work, even though I have a company issued laptop (and a high-end one at that), I have enough seniority to get TWO docking stations since I split my time between the office and working from home. Thus, the full-size keyboard and dual 2K monitors, and I'm rarely utilizing my laptop in laptop mode.

Quote from: J N Winkler on September 06, 2022, 01:25:46 PM
Living in Kansas, I have to smile as I see people debate the relative affordabilities of California, Texas, New York, and Connecticut.

My sister lives in Kansas, and lives pretty well on half of what I make in NYC. That's all well and good, except it's Kansas...

FWIW...

I just ordered a new Washer/Dryer and a Television through Costco which is scheduled to be delivered on Friday, March 10th. The total cost was $1,980.95 thanks to a current promotion which knocked off $100 by purchasing two items. However, there were two things that knocked the cost down:

• Rewards from using the Costco Visa card that is paid off every month. (Remember, all of my purchases with the exception of the mortgage payment is made to the Costco Visa)
• Shop card thanks to a promotion in 2020 when I replaced the air conditioner just prior to the event. It was partially used last year when purchasing a replacement microwave.

This knocked the actual charge to about $343, and because the Costco purchase was made on a Costco Visa card, the warranty is also extended.

The Washer/Dryer was on the wish list for replacement since I moved in 2019. They hadn't broken down, but had issues, so the replacement was under the "nice-to-have" category, and the accumulated rewards made the replacement possible. As for the television, it's because my mother's television broke down, so I gave her my 50" and am replacing it with a $300 55". It's going into my home office, so I don't need a nice television, just a smart one.

Quote from: kphoger on November 11, 2022, 12:26:36 PM

Quote from: mgk920 on November 11, 2022, 12:19:11 PM
And also, the kind, caring and über-compassionate people over at the Internal Revenue Service will want to all know about any of your forgiven debts and be wanting to have their concerns regarding them to be fully addressed in the year that any such debts are forgiven.

That was one of the thrusts of the lawsuit that was put forth a few weeks ago:  a handful of states (but none of the ones bringing the suit, IIRC) claim income tax on debt forgiveness payments, whereas Biden's plan explicitly prohibited such.  The states claimed that that part of the plan would result in financial damages to such states.  The counterargument is that the money wasn't actually guaranteed to the states in the first place, therefore the damages were only hypothetical:  after all, if people simply paid off their loans, then the hypothetical wouldn't apply.

The other thrust is that the plan would prompt people who held FFEL loans to rush and consolidate them with the US Department of Education in order to qualify–and, as those loans were privately held by quasi-state firms with lots of asterisks, some states could stand to lose out by the loan holders all jumping ship en masse.  (This perfectly describes our own personal situation.  My wife had an FFEL loan, and we rushed to consolidated it with the Dept of Ed.)

Update: The Supreme Court agreed with Missouri and struck down the student loan forgiveness program.

Quote from: NWI_Irish96 on June 30, 2023, 10:41:24 AM

Quote from: kphoger on November 11, 2022, 12:26:36 PM

Quote from: mgk920 on November 11, 2022, 12:19:11 PM
And also, the kind, caring and über-compassionate people over at the Internal Revenue Service will want to all know about any of your forgiven debts and be wanting to have their concerns regarding them to be fully addressed in the year that any such debts are forgiven.

That was one of the thrusts of the lawsuit that was put forth a few weeks ago:  a handful of states (but none of the ones bringing the suit, IIRC) claim income tax on debt forgiveness payments, whereas Biden's plan explicitly prohibited such.  The states claimed that that part of the plan would result in financial damages to such states.  The counterargument is that the money wasn't actually guaranteed to the states in the first place, therefore the damages were only hypothetical:  after all, if people simply paid off their loans, then the hypothetical wouldn't apply.

The other thrust is that the plan would prompt people who held FFEL loans to rush and consolidate them with the US Department of Education in order to qualify–and, as those loans were privately held by quasi-state firms with lots of asterisks, some states could stand to lose out by the loan holders all jumping ship en masse.  (This perfectly describes our own personal situation.  My wife had an FFEL loan, and we rushed to consolidated it with the Dept of Ed.)

Update: The Supreme Court agreed with Missouri and struck down the student loan forgiveness program.

https://edition.cnn.com/2023/06/30/politics/supreme-court-student-loan-forgiveness-biden/index.html
https://www.forbes.com/sites/anafaguy/2023/06/30/supreme-court-rejects-student-loan-forgiveness-heres-what-we-know-before-payments-restart-this-fall/?sh=7932306d7ad0
https://www.cnbc.com/2023/06/30/supreme-court-biden-student-loan-forgiveness-plan.html

https://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/22pdf/22-506_nmip.pdf
https://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/22pdf/22-535_i3kn.pdf

Quote from: NWI_Irish96 on June 30, 2023, 10:41:24 AM

Quote from: kphoger on November 11, 2022, 12:26:36 PM

Quote from: mgk920 on November 11, 2022, 12:19:11 PM
And also, the kind, caring and über-compassionate people over at the Internal Revenue Service will want to all know about any of your forgiven debts and be wanting to have their concerns regarding them to be fully addressed in the year that any such debts are forgiven.

That was one of the thrusts of the lawsuit that was put forth a few weeks ago:  a handful of states (but none of the ones bringing the suit, IIRC) claim income tax on debt forgiveness payments, whereas Biden's plan explicitly prohibited such.  The states claimed that that part of the plan would result in financial damages to such states.  The counterargument is that the money wasn't actually guaranteed to the states in the first place, therefore the damages were only hypothetical:  after all, if people simply paid off their loans, then the hypothetical wouldn't apply.

The other thrust is that the plan would prompt people who held FFEL loans to rush and consolidate them with the US Department of Education in order to qualify–and, as those loans were privately held by quasi-state firms with lots of asterisks, some states could stand to lose out by the loan holders all jumping ship en masse.  (This perfectly describes our own personal situation.  My wife had an FFEL loan, and we rushed to consolidated it with the Dept of Ed.)

Update: The Supreme Court agreed with Missouri and struck down the student loan forgiveness program.

Yeah, I didn't have much hope for them to uphold the program.  The legal case against it seemed pretty strong.  The only open door I saw was the notion that, because the financial damages to the states was only hypothetical, then they had no standing;  however, precedent contradicted that argument, so I didn't expect the high court to rule that way.  Honestly, I'm kind of amazed there was as much hesitation as there was.  In short:  even though I would have personally benefited greatly from the program, I agree with the court that it was unconstitutional and am not surprised they ruled as such.

And this is one of the many reasons why I dislike the state of Missouri.

Quote from: JayhawkCO on June 30, 2023, 12:07:43 PM
And this is one of the many reasons why I dislike the state of Missouri.

I mean, it's hard to blame them.  The President initiated a program that would cause financial damage to several states without the approval of Congress.

Quote from: kphoger on June 30, 2023, 12:19:11 PM

Quote from: JayhawkCO on June 30, 2023, 12:07:43 PM
And this is one of the many reasons why I dislike the state of Missouri.

I mean, it's hard to blame them.  The President initiated a program that would cause financial damage to several states without the approval of Congress.

I'm a Jayhawker. I'm going to rationally or irrationally dislike the state of Missouri if I want to.

Quote from: kphoger on June 30, 2023, 12:19:11 PM

Quote from: JayhawkCO on June 30, 2023, 12:07:43 PM
And this is one of the many reasons why I dislike the state of Missouri.

I mean, it's hard to blame them.  The President initiated a program that would cause financial damage to several states without the approval of Congress.

Missouri signed a bill banning gender-affirming care to adults. To say "fuck Missouri" would be an understatement, especially if we add striking down a promise Joe Biden made about forgiving student loans on top of that. So yes, it's extremely easy to blame them on a lot of things.

This thread reminds me of an old Reddit thread. The thread was essentially "what are somethings about growing up poor that most people wouldn't understand?"  And it read more like a list of people raised by extreme cheapskates than people actually experiencing poverty.

One disgusting example stuck with me. One commenter said that her parents would bath three children in the same bath water separately. I have never lived anywhere where the cost of drawing a bath would make any measurable impact on a water bill. I am sure you get SOME savings but it seems minimal compared to bathing your children in fresh water.

Quote from: The Nature Boy on July 04, 2023, 05:09:53 PM
This thread reminds me of an old Reddit thread. The thread was essentially "what are somethings about growing up poor that most people wouldn't understand?"  And it read more like a list of people raised by extreme cheapskates than people actually experiencing poverty.

One disgusting example stuck with me. One commenter said that her parents would bath three children in the same bath water separately. I have never lived anywhere where the cost of drawing a bath would make any measurable impact on a water bill. I am sure you get SOME savings but it seems minimal compared to bathing your children in fresh water.

Heck, there's no water bill to speak of in Canada (or at least there are none where I've lived)... the idea of actually paying for tap water is insane.

Quote from: LilianaUwU on July 04, 2023, 10:14:47 PM

Quote from: The Nature Boy on July 04, 2023, 05:09:53 PM
This thread reminds me of an old Reddit thread. The thread was essentially “what are somethings about growing up poor that most people wouldn’t understand?” And it read more like a list of people raised by extreme cheapskates than people actually experiencing poverty.

One disgusting example stuck with me. One commenter said that her parents would bath three children in the same bath water separately. I have never lived anywhere where the cost of drawing a bath would make any measurable impact on a water bill. I am sure you get SOME savings but it seems minimal compared to bathing your children in fresh water.

Heck, there's no water bill to speak of in Canada (or at least there are none where I've lived)... the idea of actually paying for tap water is insane.

We didn't do it often, but on a few occasions, we'd bath both our children at the same time. It's less time-consuming to drain the water and refill fill the tub again...roughly 10-15 minutes' time, depending on how long it takes for the water to be hot. Then you have to get them ready for bed, and you wouldn't have to keep an eye on one while the other is being washed. We did this if we were at someone else's home or at a hotel, but it's probably been 9-10 years since doing so.

So figure that there's much more of a time savings with washing three kids (20-30 minutes), and also trying to get them ready for bed independently while coordinating other morning/nightly rituals was not always so easy, depending on circumstances.

Edit: I do some cheapskate things, mostly because I still have a bit of a frugal mentality that I'm making $8/hour, and so does my wife. Although we've never really worried about being destitute, we sometimes live like we only have five dollars left to our name after the bills are paid. We save every darn shoe box, pick up used furniture, and are not ashamed to return things we don't like/need if we've saved the receipt. We'll have water at a restaurant, order small portions, and use my rewards points for purchases. We don't carry a credit card balance. We don't drink much and very rarely gamble money. We don't buy each other excessive gifts, we don't trinket each other with frilly things, we're not afraid to accept hand-me-downs and offer them back. We drive vehicles that are over 10 years old and long-since paid off. You go though your stuff, catalogue it, and then know what you own so you don't buy extras unless you really need it, and can stock up when you see a good deal. These are all minor cheapy things that help us out. Businesses and society want you to feel ashamed for being cheap...don't fall into that trap. But this way, we don't have to think twice when there's an emergency or unexpected expense, or don't have to blush when on vacation.

Quote from: JayhawkCO on June 30, 2023, 12:22:55 PM

Quote from: kphoger on June 30, 2023, 12:19:11 PM

Quote from: JayhawkCO on June 30, 2023, 12:07:43 PM
And this is one of the many reasons why I dislike the state of Missouri.

I mean, it's hard to blame them.  The President initiated a program that would cause financial damage to several states without the approval of Congress.

I'm a Jayhawker. I'm going to rationally or irrationally dislike the state of Missouri if I want to.

And, for the record, I did some more research on this and it appears that MOHELA (the Missouri company that sued saying they'd lose money due to less accounts to service) would actually have gained money.

Cite: https://www.newsweek.com/canceling-student-loans-boost-servicer-revenues-analysis-1798001

My student loans are through MOHELA (after two company changes throughout the years). Should I boycott them and switch to something else, or is doing so impossible?

Quote from: 1 on July 05, 2023, 09:06:09 AM
My student loans are through MOHELA (after two company changes throughout the years). Should I boycott them and switch to something else, or is doing so impossible?

I think it's kind of like a mortgage - once it's sold to another company, you don't have a say in it.

Quote from: JayhawkCO on July 05, 2023, 09:28:48 AM

Quote from: 1 on July 05, 2023, 09:06:09 AM
My student loans are through MOHELA (after two company changes throughout the years). Should I boycott them and switch to something else, or is doing so impossible?

I think it's kind of like a mortgage - once it's sold to another company, you don't have a say in it.

I thought SOFI was based on refinancing student loans. :hmmm:

Quote from: Big John on July 05, 2023, 09:48:36 AM

Quote from: JayhawkCO on July 05, 2023, 09:28:48 AM

Quote from: 1 on July 05, 2023, 09:06:09 AM
My student loans are through MOHELA (after two company changes throughout the years). Should I boycott them and switch to something else, or is doing so impossible?

I think it's kind of like a mortgage - once it's sold to another company, you don't have a say in it.

I thought SOFI was based on refinancing student loans. :hmmm:

Refinancing is just taking another loan out in order to pay down an existing loan.

Quote from: JayhawkCO on July 05, 2023, 08:56:31 AM

Quote from: JayhawkCO on June 30, 2023, 12:22:55 PM

Quote from: kphoger on June 30, 2023, 12:19:11 PM

Quote from: JayhawkCO on June 30, 2023, 12:07:43 PM
And this is one of the many reasons why I dislike the state of Missouri.

I mean, it's hard to blame them.  The President initiated a program that would cause financial damage to several states without the approval of Congress.

I'm a Jayhawker. I'm going to rationally or irrationally dislike the state of Missouri if I want to.

And, for the record, I did some more research on this and it appears that MOHELA (the Missouri company that sued saying they'd lose money due to less accounts to service) would actually have gained money.

Cite: https://www.newsweek.com/canceling-student-loans-boost-servicer-revenues-analysis-1798001

MOHELA is the government's chosen vendor for the Public Service Loan Forgiveness program so this whole thing is a bit ironic.

Quote from: Big John on July 05, 2023, 09:48:36 AM

Quote from: JayhawkCO on July 05, 2023, 09:28:48 AM

Quote from: 1 on July 05, 2023, 09:06:09 AM
My student loans are through MOHELA (after two company changes throughout the years). Should I boycott them and switch to something else, or is doing so impossible?

I think it's kind of like a mortgage - once it's sold to another company, you don't have a say in it.

I thought SOFI was based on refinancing student loans. :hmmm:

Once you refinance with SOFI, you lose any and all protections from the federal student loan program. If there is forgiveness, you won't get it. There is actually forgiveness baked into the student loan program now. You can either get it by working for a non-profit for 10 years or paying on an income based repayment plan for 20-25 years (depending on your plan). The federal loan program also has relatively generous deferral policies so if you fall on hard times, you can give them a heads up and put your loans on hold. If you do income based repayment, your loans would default to $0 if you have no income.

There are VERY few circumstances where someone should refinance their loans with a private vendor.

Very few circumstances where you should refinance STUDENT loans with a private vendor. Sofi works great for things like credit card consolidation and such.

Quote from: The Nature Boy on July 05, 2023, 10:02:01 AM

Quote from: JayhawkCO on July 05, 2023, 08:56:31 AM

Quote from: JayhawkCO on June 30, 2023, 12:22:55 PM

Quote from: kphoger on June 30, 2023, 12:19:11 PM

Quote from: JayhawkCO on June 30, 2023, 12:07:43 PM
And this is one of the many reasons why I dislike the state of Missouri.

I mean, it's hard to blame them.  The President initiated a program that would cause financial damage to several states without the approval of Congress.

I'm a Jayhawker. I'm going to rationally or irrationally dislike the state of Missouri if I want to.

And, for the record, I did some more research on this and it appears that MOHELA (the Missouri company that sued saying they'd lose money due to less accounts to service) would actually have gained money.

Cite: https://www.newsweek.com/canceling-student-loans-boost-servicer-revenues-analysis-1798001

MOHELA is the government's chosen vendor for the Public Service Loan Forgiveness program so this whole thing is a bit ironic.

Quote from: Big John on July 05, 2023, 09:48:36 AM

Quote from: JayhawkCO on July 05, 2023, 09:28:48 AM

Quote from: 1 on July 05, 2023, 09:06:09 AM
My student loans are through MOHELA (after two company changes throughout the years). Should I boycott them and switch to something else, or is doing so impossible?

I think it's kind of like a mortgage - once it's sold to another company, you don't have a say in it.

I thought SOFI was based on refinancing student loans. :hmmm:

Once you refinance with SOFI, you lose any and all protections from the federal student loan program. If there is forgiveness, you won't get it. There is actually forgiveness baked into the student loan program now. You can either get it by working for a non-profit for 10 years or paying on an income based repayment plan for 20-25 years (depending on your plan). The federal loan program also has relatively generous deferral policies so if you fall on hard times, you can give them a heads up and put your loans on hold. If you do income based repayment, your loans would default to $0 if you have no income.

There are VERY few circumstances where someone should refinance their loans with a private vendor.

I'm pretty sure one has to be on an income-based plan for any kind of forgiveness.  It's not directly spelled out, but the standard plan repays the loans in 10 years, rendering the 10 year forgiveness for government/non-profit work moot.  Forbearance is also something to not take lightly, as income will still accrue on unsubsidized loans, which will either make the payments bigger or extend how long you'll be paying them off.  I actually continued paying my student loans when I was unemployed for this reason; fortunately I didn't have too many.

Short of it is: Don't put any stock in Biden's new plan and if you can pay your loans off, do it now, since there won't be forgiveness.

Quote from: JayhawkCO on July 05, 2023, 08:56:31 AMAnd, for the record, I did some more research on this and it appears that MOHELA (the Missouri company that sued saying they'd lose money due to less accounts to service) would actually have gained money.

Cite: https://www.newsweek.com/canceling-student-loans-boost-servicer-revenues-analysis-1798001

AIUI, MOHELA actively opposed the suit, to the extent that it forced the Missouri state AG to use the Sunshine Law as a crowbar to obtain evidence for use in court.

I've also seen it argued that the Biden administration should simply have written down all outstanding loans to create a fait accompli, the theory being that the federal courts would be less likely to reverse it.  Apparently only 2 million out of the 43 million borrowers wouldn't have passed the means test.

Quote from: J N Winkler on July 05, 2023, 01:36:30 PM
I've also seen it argued that the Biden administration should simply have written down all outstanding loans to create a fait accompli, the theory being that the federal courts would be less likely to reverse it.  Apparently only 2 million out of the 43 million borrowers wouldn't have passed the means test.

[joe@whitehouse]$ mysql -u jbiden -h ed.gov -p
Enter password:
Welcome to the MariaDB monitor.  Commands end with ; or \g.
Your MariaDB connection id is 2173
Server version: 10.5.15-MariaDB MariaDB Server

Copyright (c) 2000, 2018, Oracle, MariaDB Corporation Ab and others.

Type 'help;' or '\h' for help. Type '\c' to clear the current input statement.

MariaDB [(none)]> use student_debt;
Reading table information for completion of table and column names
You can turn off this feature to get a quicker startup with -A

Database changed
MariaDB [student_debt]> drop table loans;
Query OK, 43,262,876 rows affected (0.189 sec)

Based on the perceived valuation of my 25-year-old textbooks based on initial cost and inflation, I've clearly made my student loan interest back. :bigass:

Quote from: 1 on July 05, 2023, 09:06:09 AM
My student loans are through MOHELA (after two company changes throughout the years). Should I boycott them and switch to something else, or is doing so impossible?

Should I boycott my Chase mortgage because they paid millions to settle a lawsuit that they financed a pedophile ring on a USVI private island?

Quote from: SectorZ on July 06, 2023, 12:27:36 PM

Quote from: 1 on July 05, 2023, 09:06:09 AM
My student loans are through MOHELA (after two company changes throughout the years). Should I boycott them and switch to something else, or is doing so impossible?

Should I boycott my Chase mortgage because they paid millions to settle a lawsuit that they financed a pedophile ring on a USVI private island?

Yes.

Quote from: abefroman329 on July 06, 2023, 01:35:42 PM

Quote from: SectorZ on July 06, 2023, 12:27:36 PM

Quote from: 1 on July 05, 2023, 09:06:09 AM
My student loans are through MOHELA (after two company changes throughout the years). Should I boycott them and switch to something else, or is doing so impossible?

Should I boycott my Chase mortgage because they paid millions to settle a lawsuit that they financed a pedophile ring on a USVI private island?

Yes.

Yeah, no problem with that here either. Refi and go with another lender.

Quote from: JayhawkCO on July 06, 2023, 01:54:30 PM

Quote from: abefroman329 on July 06, 2023, 01:35:42 PM

Quote from: SectorZ on July 06, 2023, 12:27:36 PM

Quote from: 1 on July 05, 2023, 09:06:09 AM
My student loans are through MOHELA (after two company changes throughout the years). Should I boycott them and switch to something else, or is doing so impossible?

Should I boycott my Chase mortgage because they paid millions to settle a lawsuit that they financed a pedophile ring on a USVI private island?

Yes.

Yeah, no problem with that here either. Refi and go with another lender.

Refi may not be a viable option because of the current mortgage rates... especially if the mortgage was taked out in the 2019-2022 time span.

Quote from: ZLoth on July 06, 2023, 06:22:14 PM

Quote from: JayhawkCO on July 06, 2023, 01:54:30 PM

Quote from: abefroman329 on July 06, 2023, 01:35:42 PM

Quote from: SectorZ on July 06, 2023, 12:27:36 PM

Quote from: 1 on July 05, 2023, 09:06:09 AM
My student loans are through MOHELA (after two company changes throughout the years). Should I boycott them and switch to something else, or is doing so impossible?

Should I boycott my Chase mortgage because they paid millions to settle a lawsuit that they financed a pedophile ring on a USVI private island?

Yes.

Yeah, no problem with that here either. Refi and go with another lender.

Refi may not be a viable option because of the current mortgage rates... especially if the mortgage was taked out in the 2019-2022 time span.

Exactly, and I was also being sarcastic as in "should I just stop paying it as a boycott" like 1 was partially seeming to imply.

It would be hilarious if every Chase mortgage customer stopped paying. To a point, what the hell could they do about it? I can't imagine being a victim of child sexual abuse and being forced to deal with a company that literally funded such a venture.

<nerd>

Quote from: Scott5114 on July 05, 2023, 09:43:47 PM

Quote from: J N Winkler on July 05, 2023, 01:36:30 PM
I've also seen it argued that the Biden administration should simply have written down all outstanding loans to create a fait accompli, the theory being that the federal courts would be less likely to reverse it.  Apparently only 2 million out of the 43 million borrowers wouldn't have passed the means test.

[joe@whitehouse]$ mysql -u jbiden -h ed.gov -p
Enter password:
Welcome to the MariaDB monitor.  Commands end with ; or \g.
Your MariaDB connection id is 2173
Server version: 10.5.15-MariaDB MariaDB Server

Copyright (c) 2000, 2018, Oracle, MariaDB Corporation Ab and others.

Type 'help;' or '\h' for help. Type '\c' to clear the current input statement.

MariaDB [(none)]> use student_debt;
Reading table information for completion of table and column names
You can turn off this feature to get a quicker startup with -A

Database changed
MariaDB [student_debt]> drop table loans;
Query OK, 43,262,876 rows affected (0.189 sec)

</nerd>