AARoads Forum

I was wondering, who do you consider the true pioneer of the smooth jazz genre?

While a jazz purist would probably say Kenny G due to his immense popularity, there is no denying the genre (not the radio format) existed before his popularity. Of the listed artists, I would probably give the most credit to George Benson with hits such as Breezin' and Affirmation.

Dave Brubeck
https://youtu.be/XvY7p9OBTlE

Quote from: Takumi on September 15, 2022, 01:20:04 PM
Dave Brubeck

I don't consider Dave Brubeck as a smooth jazz artist. His music was more of a predecessor to what we call smooth jazz.

I remember hearing the late Ramsey Lewis cover Dobie Gray's The "In" Crowd on the radio. Given that his version came just one year after Gray's, I wouldn't be surprised if a few people believed Lewis' version came first. In fact, Lewis' 1965 cover probably came out while Gray's 1964 hit was still charting, although I'm not exactly sure about that.

(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2F1.bp.blogspot.com%2F_vV6KYvnGMp0%2FTOqTcs8avcI%2FAAAAAAAABuw%2FEgXXNah83D0%2Fs1600%2FHead%25252BHunters.jpg&hash=dedecdd5cc418c4e65bebffb4ac228877932f0f6)

A similar case can be made for fellow Chicago-born piano/keyboard player Herbie Hancock (starting with the Head Hunters album from 1973), but was he ever featured on that format himself? I know many smooth jazz artists have covered his works over the years (such as Chameleon, Watermelon Man and Cantaloupe Island), so he may have been a major influence on the genre as a whole with his always-evolving sound.

I'm not even sure I'd call Spyro Gyra "smooth jazz".  Maybe Kenny G has simply defined what the genre is, so anything dissimilar to it doesn't register as "smooth jazz" to me?

Quote from: kphoger on September 15, 2022, 01:42:54 PM
I'm not even sure I'd call Spyro Gyra "smooth jazz".  Maybe Kenny G has simply defined what the genre is, so anything dissimilar to it doesn't register as "smooth jazz" to me?

For me Kenny G doesn't even represent the genre as a whole and is overrated as an artist. Very few of today's smooth jazz artists consider Kenny G an idol and all trace their music to the originals back in the 1970s. Even Kenny G himself considers Grover Washington Jr. to be his idol.

Michael Buble.

Ozzy Osbourne.

Taraf de Haïdouks

Quote from: kphoger on September 15, 2022, 04:57:16 PM
Taraf de Haïdouks

They are not even a smooth jazz group.

Come on, many of these answers are wack and have no knowledge about the history of smooth jazz.

Quote from: Pink Jazz on September 15, 2022, 05:30:56 PM

Quote from: kphoger on September 15, 2022, 04:57:16 PM
Taraf de Haïdouks

They are not even a smooth jazz group.

Come on, many of these answers are wack and have no knowledge about the history of smooth jazz.

You posed a question that is going to get funny responses, especially on a site not devoted to nor filled with legions of experts in smooth jazz.

I voted for George Benson BTW. I respect the hell out of his style.

Quote from: Pink Jazz on September 15, 2022, 05:30:56 PM

Quote from: kphoger on September 15, 2022, 04:57:16 PM
Taraf de Haïdouks

They are not even a smooth jazz group.

Come on, many of these answers are wack and have no knowledge about the history of smooth jazz.

Sorry, I assumed the serious discussion ended with mention of Ozzy.

By the way, thanks for reminding me about Spyro Gyra.  My work day benefitted from the album Morning Dance today.

Quote from: Pink Jazz on September 15, 2022, 05:30:56 PM

Quote from: kphoger on September 15, 2022, 04:57:16 PM
Taraf de Haïdouks

They are not even a smooth jazz group.

Come on, many of these answers are wack and have no knowledge about the history of smooth jazz.

These are the same people who don't get Geography either, as evidence of many of them campaigning to get Kentucky including in the Midwest.

I've always thought smooth jazz came out of bossa nova, so someone like Stan Getz or Antônio Carlos Jobim.

Quote from: Pink Jazz on September 15, 2022, 05:30:56 PM

Quote from: kphoger on September 15, 2022, 04:57:16 PM
Taraf de Haïdouks

They are not even a smooth jazz group.

Come on, many of these answers are wack and have no knowledge about the history of smooth jazz.

You do realize that approximately 99.9% of Americans cannot name a smooth jazz performer other than Kenny G, right?

I might as well ask who is the best germanium miner in the world.

Quote from: JayhawkCO on September 16, 2022, 02:29:35 PM

Quote from: Pink Jazz on September 15, 2022, 05:30:56 PM

Quote from: kphoger on September 15, 2022, 04:57:16 PM
Taraf de Haïdouks

They are not even a smooth jazz group.

Come on, many of these answers are wack and have no knowledge about the history of smooth jazz.

You do realize that approximately 99.9% of Americans cannot name a smooth jazz performer other than Kenny G, right?

I might as well ask who is the best germanium miner in the world.

Are you sure George Benson isn't well known enough to the general public? He did have his vocal hits, but he also had hits such as Breezin' and Affirmation. I am also pretty sure many people have also heard Chuck Mangione's Feels So Good.

Quote from: Pink Jazz on September 16, 2022, 02:32:30 PM

Quote from: JayhawkCO on September 16, 2022, 02:29:35 PM

Quote from: Pink Jazz on September 15, 2022, 05:30:56 PM

Quote from: kphoger on September 15, 2022, 04:57:16 PM
Taraf de Haïdouks

They are not even a smooth jazz group.

Come on, many of these answers are wack and have no knowledge about the history of smooth jazz.

You do realize that approximately 99.9% of Americans cannot name a smooth jazz performer other than Kenny G, right?

I might as well ask who is the best germanium miner in the world.

Are you sure George Benson isn't well known enough to the general public? He did have his vocal hits, but he also had hits such as Breezin' and Affirmation. I am also pretty sure many people have also heard Chuck Mangione's Feels So Good.

I, personally, a person who is pretty eclectic with musical taste, has not heard of either of them. Just played Breezin' on Spotify and doesn't sound familiar, and I listened to a lot of 70's music growing up.

If you are a fan of King of the Hill, you will know about Chuck Mangione.

Quote from: JayhawkCO on September 16, 2022, 02:35:12 PM

Quote from: Pink Jazz on September 16, 2022, 02:32:30 PM

Quote from: JayhawkCO on September 16, 2022, 02:29:35 PM

Quote from: Pink Jazz on September 15, 2022, 05:30:56 PM

Quote from: kphoger on September 15, 2022, 04:57:16 PM
Taraf de Haïdouks

They are not even a smooth jazz group.

Come on, many of these answers are wack and have no knowledge about the history of smooth jazz.

You do realize that approximately 99.9% of Americans cannot name a smooth jazz performer other than Kenny G, right?

I might as well ask who is the best germanium miner in the world.

Are you sure George Benson isn't well known enough to the general public? He did have his vocal hits, but he also had hits such as Breezin' and Affirmation. I am also pretty sure many people have also heard Chuck Mangione's Feels So Good.

I, personally, a person who is pretty eclectic with musical taste, has not heard of either of them. Just played Breezin' on Spotify and doesn't sound familiar, and I listened to a lot of 70's music growing up.

Benson also had a huge hit with a cover of the Drifters "On Broadway (https://youtu.be/ok__l1Acuwg)" which I prefer over the original hit.

Quote from: Pink Jazz on September 16, 2022, 02:42:48 PM
If you are a fan of King of the Hill, you will know about Chuck Mangione.

Or Doctor Strange...

Quote from: JayhawkCO on September 16, 2022, 02:35:12 PM

Quote from: Pink Jazz on September 16, 2022, 02:32:30 PM
Are you sure George Benson isn't well known enough to the general public? He did have his vocal hits, but he also had hits such as Breezin' and Affirmation. I am also pretty sure many people have also heard Chuck Mangione's Feels So Good.

I, personally, a person who is pretty eclectic with musical taste, has not heard of either of them.

Same here.  Very eclectic taste in music.  Almost went for a music major.  Never heard of them.

Quote from: kphoger on September 16, 2022, 04:02:22 PM

Quote from: JayhawkCO on September 16, 2022, 02:35:12 PM

Quote from: Pink Jazz on September 16, 2022, 02:32:30 PM
Are you sure George Benson isn't well known enough to the general public? He did have his vocal hits, but he also had hits such as Breezin' and Affirmation. I am also pretty sure many people have also heard Chuck Mangione's Feels So Good.

I, personally, a person who is pretty eclectic with musical taste, has not heard of either of them.

Same here.  Very eclectic taste in music.  Almost went for a music major.  Never heard of them.

:banghead:

Quote from: kphoger on September 16, 2022, 04:02:22 PM

Quote from: JayhawkCO on September 16, 2022, 02:35:12 PM

Quote from: Pink Jazz on September 16, 2022, 02:32:30 PM
Are you sure George Benson isn't well known enough to the general public? He did have his vocal hits, but he also had hits such as Breezin' and Affirmation. I am also pretty sure many people have also heard Chuck Mangione's Feels So Good.

I, personally, a person who is pretty eclectic with musical taste, has not heard of either of them.

Same here.  Very eclectic taste in music.  Almost went for a music major.  Never heard of them.

I think its a generational thing. Chuck Mangione, George Benson, Spyro Gyra, Grover Washington, Lee Reitenour all were off the "popular charts" before 1985.

Quote from: Hot Rod Hootenanny on September 16, 2022, 04:38:12 PM

Quote from: kphoger on September 16, 2022, 04:02:22 PM

Quote from: JayhawkCO on September 16, 2022, 02:35:12 PM

Quote from: Pink Jazz on September 16, 2022, 02:32:30 PM
Are you sure George Benson isn't well known enough to the general public? He did have his vocal hits, but he also had hits such as Breezin' and Affirmation. I am also pretty sure many people have also heard Chuck Mangione's Feels So Good.

I, personally, a person who is pretty eclectic with musical taste, has not heard of either of them.

Same here.  Very eclectic taste in music.  Almost went for a music major.  Never heard of them.

I think its a generational thing. Chuck Mangione, George Benson, Spyro Gyra, Grover Washington, Lee Reitenour all were off the "popular charts" before 1985.

There was actually a time when instrumental music hit the charts more than once every 30 years.

Quote from: Hot Rod Hootenanny on September 16, 2022, 04:38:12 PM

Quote from: kphoger on September 16, 2022, 04:02:22 PM

Quote from: JayhawkCO on September 16, 2022, 02:35:12 PM

Quote from: Pink Jazz on September 16, 2022, 02:32:30 PM
Are you sure George Benson isn't well known enough to the general public? He did have his vocal hits, but he also had hits such as Breezin' and Affirmation. I am also pretty sure many people have also heard Chuck Mangione's Feels So Good.

I, personally, a person who is pretty eclectic with musical taste, has not heard of either of them.

Same here.  Very eclectic taste in music.  Almost went for a music major.  Never heard of them.

I think its a generational thing. Chuck Mangione, George Benson, Spyro Gyra, Grover Washington, Lee Reitenour all were off the "popular charts" before 1985.

Understood, but the OP is 6 years younger than me, and seems flummoxed that someone wouldn't have heard of them, which, to me, makes it less of a generational thing and more of a "this wasn't played on the radio so why would I have heard it?" kind of thing.

Quote from: JayhawkCO on September 16, 2022, 02:29:35 PM

Quote from: Pink Jazz on September 15, 2022, 05:30:56 PM

Quote from: kphoger on September 15, 2022, 04:57:16 PM
Taraf de Haïdouks

They are not even a smooth jazz group.

Come on, many of these answers are wack and have no knowledge about the history of smooth jazz.

You do realize that approximately 99.9% of Americans cannot name a smooth jazz performer other than Kenny G, right?

I might as well ask who is the best germanium miner in the world.

I'm not in that 99.9%, but I'm certainly not a connoisseur in the top 1%.  I'm probably in the top quarter of Americans in terms of knowledge and appreciation of American music from the past century.  I know of George Benson.  I got one of his CDs back in the 90s and the music is on my computer.  I know of Chuck Mangione only because of King of the Hill. Other than that, I haven't heard of anyone on the list.  I know of Kenny Jee (I hate terminal initials), and his music is nice, it's nice to listen to and is in my playlist, but to me it doesn't have the same substance as George Benson.  It's nice, but not as meaningful.  I don't know how to describe it better than that.  To me, George Benson and Kenny Jee are like Barry White and Marvin Gaye, both good, but not of the same caliber.

I'd say Herb Alpert should be considered in this category.  He's more modern and therefore less of a pioneer, but I would add Bryan Savage to a list of accomplished, if not early, artists in the genre.

Quote from: wxfree on September 16, 2022, 11:33:21 PM
To me, George Benson and Kenny Jee are like Barry White and Marvin Gaye, both good, but not of the same caliber.

Wut.

Quote from: wxfree on September 16, 2022, 11:33:21 PM
I know of Kenny Jee (I hate terminal initials),

Why not just spell out Kenny Gorelick, then?

Quote from: Scott5114 on September 17, 2022, 08:52:24 AM

Quote from: wxfree on September 16, 2022, 11:33:21 PM
I know of Kenny Jee (I hate terminal initials),

Why not just spell out Kenny Gorelick, then?

Or spell it 'Gee' instead of changing the letter?  That is, after all, the spelling of the name of the letter, and we even have a word spelled that way that's pronounced that way.  Why change it to 'Jee'???

Quote from: Hot Rod Hootenanny on September 16, 2022, 04:38:12 PM

Quote from: kphoger on September 16, 2022, 04:02:22 PM

Quote from: JayhawkCO on September 16, 2022, 02:35:12 PM

Quote from: Pink Jazz on September 16, 2022, 02:32:30 PM
Are you sure George Benson isn't well known enough to the general public? He did have his vocal hits, but he also had hits such as Breezin' and Affirmation. I am also pretty sure many people have also heard Chuck Mangione's Feels So Good.

I, personally, a person who is pretty eclectic with musical taste, has not heard of either of them.

Same here.  Very eclectic taste in music.  Almost went for a music major.  Never heard of them.

I think its a generational thing. Chuck Mangione, George Benson, Spyro Gyra, Grover Washington, Lee Reitenour all were off the "popular charts" before 1985.

What is so amazing is that all of those individuals/group are still making music (with the exception of Grover Washington, Jr  RIP 1999).  Chuck Mangione had the biggest hit, but only hit the top 40 one other time.  George Benson had 7 top 40 hits with 4 of those hitting the top 10.  During my late high school and then college years (late 70s through early 80s), had many a study time listening to Spyro Gyra and George Benson.  I still pull out the vinyl and CDs sometimes today.

This is a hard topic for me.  I once was a smooth jazz aficionado, but I've never had a chance to set up my stereo here in North Carolina and we lost our local Smooth Jazz long-range FM station way back about 2007 or 2008.  But many of the artists that you refer to were doing true jazz in the 1960s/1970s or Fusion back in the 1970s.  I'm not sure that I can justify moving Chuck Mangione and Spyro Gyra from Fusion over into Smooth Jazz (just the same way that I can't bring myself to move Kenny Rogers and John Denver from Ballad Pop to Country).

But I am reminded of a great story.  I had a friend who worked as a disc jockey and radio engineer for (then) WZTQ in Hurricane, West Virginia.  He got me into broadcasting by dragging me into the station and letting me help (I guess as a volunteer, the other folks at the radio station was always happy to see me).  I seldom went to the station of a Friday, but on July 20, 1979 my friend desperately wanted me to come in and help that night.  Just before he took over the hot mic for the evening shift, he told me "I've got permission to play something and I'm going to be the first to play it on a Rock station".  He started the evening shift by playing Rise by Herb Alpert (he must have remembered that I was a huge fan of the Tijuana Brass way back in early elementary school).  I immediately blurted out (before we were even 2 minutes into the 7:40 album track) "That's the best Fusion recording I've ever heard.  I bet you $20 bucks that it will go all the way to Number One on the Pop Charts".

My friend looked at me with an evil grin and turned around and over-blended the following "And Dirk Rhodes* here in the station bets that this one will go all the way to Number One" and does a crazy reverb on the way out.  I was mortified. 

I would place either Rise or Route 101 at the top of my list as the best Fusion recording ever.  I still wonder why  Route 101 never made way up in the charts (it did make it into the Top 40, which I never knew).  And for the record, I can't see myself ever classifying Herb Alpert in the Smooth Jazz category.  But for those who do, some of his music in the early-1960s was already picking up some strong hints of Fusion, making Herb Alpert the father of Fusion music and perhaps this genre as well.

*He used my real name, not my broadcasting pseudonym.  By the way, I had to quit using my pseudonym when a close relative married somebody with the same name.  Whoodathunkit?

I'm firmly in the Benson camp on this topic.

My favorite Herb Alpert fact:  he is the only musician to hit No. 1 on the U.S. Billboard Hot 100 as both a vocalist ("This Guy's in Love with You", 1968) and an instrumentalist ("Rise", 1979).

Quote from: kurumi on September 19, 2022, 12:32:11 PM
My favorite Herb Alpert fact:  he is the only musician to hit No. 1 on the U.S. Billboard Hot 100 as both a vocalist ("This Guy's in Love with You", 1968) and an instrumentalist ("Rise", 1979).

I'm quite surprised that George Benson never did it, because like Alpert, he's a two-way musician with many vocal (Turn Your Love Around, for example) and instrumental (Breezin') hits. Big difference is, you can't sing and play trumpet at the same time like you can with a guitar.

Quote from: kurumi on September 19, 2022, 12:32:11 PM
My favorite Herb Alpert fact:  he is the only musician to hit No. 1 on the U.S. Billboard Hot 100 as both a vocalist ("This Guy's in Love with You", 1968) and an instrumentalist ("Rise", 1979).

"Rise" (single released July 20, 1979) also gave Herb Alpert back-to-back Number Ones for instrumentals on the Adult Contemporary charts with "A Taste of Honey", released in August 1965.  At the time, that was the longest span (13 years, 10 months) between back-to-back Number Ones in history.  I think that record has since been broken, but somebody will need to remind me.

Quote from: Henry on September 19, 2022, 01:14:00 PM
I'm quite surprised that George Benson never did it, because like Alpert, he's a two-way musician with many vocal (Turn Your Love Around, for example) and instrumental (Breezin') hits. Big difference is, you can't sing and play trumpet at the same time like you can with a guitar.

Actually, Herb Alpert was notorious for singing and playing on the same song.  My folks loved watching him (in black-and-white) back in the late 1950s and early 1960s, for that very reason.  I can see how you could do this in a studio, but making that adjustment on live television in front of an audience must have been hard.  Yet, Herb could pack them in while performing in concert.  His business partner, Hugh Masekela, could do the same and when they played together it was an amazing spectacle.

^^^
My comment about Hugh Masakela got me thinking about this topic in different vein.  Over the years, I've heard a number of older Fusion instrumentals played on Smooth Jazz stations, including "Grazing in the Grass" (1968).  So I got to thinking about what was the oldest tune I've heard in a genre playlist.  That is probably "Green Onions" by Booker T. and the M.G.'s (1962), which could be heard frequently on some stations.  But neither of those fit the genre.  So I come to some of the older stuff from the 1970s that are more Jazz and less Fusion.  That smacks squarely on David Sanborn, who really doesn't want to be considered as a Smooth Jazz artist.  And look, you've already got him on the list.

Although not yet mentioned in this forvm, Hands down, the late Barry White.

Mike

Quote from: mgk920 on September 20, 2022, 01:11:01 PM
Although not yet mentioned in this forvm, Hands down, the late Barry White.

Mike

Huh? He's not Smooth Jazz, or Jazz of any sort. He's R&B, funk, and arguably disco.

Quote from: Hot Rod Hootenanny on September 21, 2022, 02:27:47 AM

Quote from: mgk920 on September 20, 2022, 01:11:01 PM
Although not yet mentioned in this forvm, Hands down, the late Barry White.

Mike

Huh? He's not Smooth Jazz, or Jazz of any sort. He's R&B, funk, and arguably disco.

Yeah, not to mention pop, as I've heard his songs on pop stations that cater mainly to white audiences, most specifically lite/soft rock stations. Same is true for artists like Luther Vandross, Whitney Houston, Prince and several others who have crossed over into this territory.