A spin-off of the thread for geographic oddities... what are some population related facts or stats that you find odd, crazy, or otherwise surprising?
Here's one I've never been able to wrap my head around: The District of Columbia (2020 pop. 689,545) is more populous than the state of Vermont (2020 pop. 643,077).
My home county, Monroe County, NY (2020 pop. 759,443) is also more populous than Vermont, which seems odd too because Rochester isn't even a very big metro area on a national level.
Colorado's most populous county is not in the Denver metro area. El Paso County (Colorado Springs) outranks the City and County of Denver by about 20,000.
The two most populous countries in the world (China & India) have about as many people as the next 20 in population (USA, Indonesia, Pakistan, Nigeria, Brazil, Bangladesh, Russia, Mexico, Japan, Philippines, Ethiopia, Egypt, Vietnam, DRC, Iran, Turkey, Germany, France, UK, and Thailand).
There are over 20 metro areas just in the US with larger populations than the entire state of Wyoming.
A local one for me that I never understood: Cattaraugus County, NY has 30,000 more people than neighboring Allegany County. Both counties are of a similar size and both are quite rural. The largest municipality in Cattaraugus County (Olean) is about 13,500 population-wise. For Allegany County the largest municipality (Wellsville) has a population of ~7,000. But that's 6,500 people. That doesn't explain the other 23,500 extra people in Cattaraugus County.
^ I suspect Wellsville is more of an outlier in its county than you think. Allegany county is one of the most desolate parts of the entire state (especially if factoring out the Adirondacks). Plus Olean is a bigger area than the population comparison to Wellsville suggests. Olean actually has suburbs.
This map is interesting: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/e2/New_York_Population_Map.png
City limit population in general is weird and highly inconsistent, and sometimes defy conventional wisdom. Two of my favorite cases:
- Jacksonville is the largest in FL by city limit population, but most people would think that Miami, Tampa, and/or Orlando are larger (and they are for metro area population).
- San Jose is more populous than San Francisco, even though the latter is considered the "primary" city of the Bay Area.
Quote from: kirbykart on September 23, 2022, 02:45:32 PM
There are over 20 metro areas just in the US with larger populations than the entire state of Wyoming.
There's 99. (Which is over 20, so you're not wrong :-D.) Jackson, MS (587k) is the smallest that is still bigger than Wyoming.
Quote from: vdeane on September 23, 2022, 09:36:10 PM
^ I suspect Wellsville is more of an outlier in its county than you think. Allegany county is one of the most desolate parts of the entire state (especially if factoring out the Adirondacks). Plus Olean is a bigger area than the population comparison to Wellsville suggests. Olean actually has suburbs.
This map is interesting: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/e2/New_York_Population_Map.png
Concur with this. The
Town of Allegany (pop. 8004) in Cattaraugus County is basically a suburb of Olean, and it's more populous than anything in Allegany County. Cattaraugus County also has the city of Salamanca, which is itself similar in size to Wellsville. Then there's the difference in area, with Cattaraugus County being roughly 20% larger.
The city of Indianapolis is 1.6% more populous than the city of San Francisco.
The San Francisco MSA is 125.5% more populous than the Indianapolis MSA.
New Zealand entire country's population has the same amount of people that lives in the City of Los Angeles and Singapore respectively.
Canada has the same amount of people that lives in California and
Australia has the same amount of people that lives in Texas.
Fresno has more people than Sacramento for most populated city in the Central Valley of California.
However Sacramento Metro area has more people overall than Fresno. Note Sacramento Area may sometime include parts of Solano County, CA given that the Southwest corner of the Sacramento Valley and Delta regions go all the way to areas like Dixon and Rio Vista.
Also the State of Wyoming has the same amount of people as Sacramento and Fresno have.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wyoming
Both Vermont and West Virginia don't have any cities more populated than my hometown. As of the latest estimates Burlington VT has a population of 44,743; Charleston WV has 48,018; and Huesca, Spain has 53,429.
More than half of Canada's population lives south of Seattle (using a line drawn at Seattle's latitude).
Anchorage, Alaska (pop. 292k) is a bigger city than many other states' biggest cities, including Birmingham, Little Rock, Bridgeport, Wilmington, Boise, Des Moines, Portland (ME), Jackson, Billings, Manchester, Newark, Fargo, Providence, Charleston (SC), Charleston (WV), Sioux Falls, Salt Lake City, Burlington and Cheyenne.
If we look specifically at city limit populations (not MSA populations) then here's one of the craziest (at least to me): Phoenix is #5! Phoenix is so much larger than you would think.
City populations vs metro populations etc. etc. and maybe not defying CW but interesting:
8 out of the top 10 cities in the 1950 census peaked at that census (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_most_populous_cities_in_the_United_States_by_decade#1950).
Since then:
* NYC and LA have increased (though NYC did see declines before recovering)
* Chicago: 3.6M -> 2.7M today (25%)
* Philly: 2.0M -> 1.6M (20%)
* Detroit: 1.85M -> 623K (66%)
* Baltimore: 949K -> 576K (39%)
* Cleveland: 914K -> 372K (59%)
* St. Louis: 856K -> 301K (65%)
* DC: 802K -> 689K (14%)
* Boston: 801K -> 675K (16%)
Suburbanization and transportation changes have had an effect.
Also: NYC has been the #1 city since 1790, wire to wire. The longest-lived city in the top 5 otherwise: Philadelphia. It stayed there in every census until Phoenix knocked it to #6 in 2020.
Cook County, Illinois, has a greater population than the 98 smallest counties of the state, combined.
I mean, it's no surprise that Cook County is the biggest, but that's all but three counties in the state, which is a lot.
New York's most populous city is in the 8 million range and its next most populous city is in the 200,000 range. This state needs more medium sized cities.
Quote from: interstatefan990 on September 25, 2022, 04:31:17 AM
New York's most populous city is in the 8 million range and its next most populous city is in the 200,000 range. This state needs more medium sized cities.
Why?
Quote from: interstatefan990 on September 25, 2022, 04:31:17 AM
New York's most populous city is in the 8 million range and its next most populous city is in the 200,000 range. This state needs more medium sized cities.
You might get your wish given telecommuting and other factors causing people to flee to upstate NY, but keep in mind that cities in this state can't annex their suburbs, so they'll never be on the size that they could be in a state with unrestricted annexation. It's also a double-edged sword, and more people means more congestion. I don't think people in upstate NY (me included) have tolerance for the levels of congestion that are routine in larger metro areas.
Also, NYC is big because it's a conglomerate of five counties. It would be smaller if it only contained Manhattan.
Hempstead, New York if it was an incorporated city would have the same amount of people as Indianapolis City proper and San Francisco.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hempstead,_New_York (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hempstead,_New_York)
Manhattan, NY if it was it's own city it would in the same range as with San Jose, CA and Philadelphia, PA.
Brooklyn, NY if it was its own city it would be tied with Chicago
Bronx, NY would be tied with San Francisco, CA
Staten Island would be in the same range as Sacramento, CA, Long Beach, CA and Fresno, CA.
Queens would get the same amount of people as Houston.
Quote from: interstatefan990 on September 25, 2022, 04:31:17 AM
New York's most populous city is in the 8 million range and its next most populous city is in the 200,000 range.
Perhaps not surprisingly, New York also has the biggest percentage drop between first and second largest cities:
Buffalo's population is only 3.3% of New York's.
Chicago is #2: Aurora's population is 6.6% of Chicago's.
The smallest drop is West Virginia: Huntington's population is 95.8% of Charleston's.
The average is 51.2%, which just happens to be Kentucky: Lexington's population is 51.2% of Louisville's.
Quote from: SkyPesos on September 23, 2022, 09:41:44 PM
City limit population in general is weird and highly inconsistent, and sometimes defy conventional wisdom. Two of my favorite cases:
- Jacksonville is the largest in FL by city limit population, but most people would think that Miami, Tampa, and/or Orlando are larger (and they are for metro area population).
- San Jose is more populous than San Francisco, even though the latter is considered the "primary" city of the Bay Area.
The Canadian version would be this:
Ottawa and Hamilton ON city limits include the city centre, suburbs, and large swaths of rural land. Population ~1 mil and 500k respectively.
Vancouver BC city limits include the city centre and inner suburbs. Population ~600k. Metro population is 2.6 mil
Another interesting difference if I recall correctly is that the Canadian census does not count students at university as living in that city. Thus, municipalities with a large student population's official population count may not reflect the reality during school years. Example is Kingston, Ontario, where the official population is 130k, but probably is more like 150k when students are there.
Another thing: Ontario cities (by city limit population) are often larger than the most important cities in other provinces.
E.g. Mississauga, Ontario (700k), and Brampton Ontario (600k), both considered suburbs of Toronto, are the 7th and 9th largest cities in Canada. Bigger than Quebec City (500k) and Halifax (400k), both of whose city limits contain almost all of their suburbs and also adjoining rural lands. Mississauga also has almost the same number of people as New Brunswick.
Wakesha WI population around 72,000 the county seat of my home county has more people than Burlington VT, Charleston WV Cheyenne WY and Portland ME which are the largest cities in their states.
Quote from: dvferyance on September 25, 2022, 08:39:23 PM
Wakesha WI population around 72,000 the county seat of my home county has more people than Burlington VT, Charleston WV Cheyenne WY and Portland ME which are the largest cities in their states.
For that matter, the nearby "quaint little college town" of Chapel Hill (62,906) has more residents than Burlington VT and Charleston WV (but it's not as big as Wakesha).
Quote from: Rothman on September 25, 2022, 07:48:43 AM
Quote from: interstatefan990 on September 25, 2022, 04:31:17 AM
New York's most populous city is in the 8 million range and its next most populous city is in the 200,000 range. This state needs more medium sized cities.
Why?
It's just economically important. Buffalo and Rochester have their fair share of destinations, but they're just too small to drive true out-of-state tourism like other states do. People come to Florida for Miami, but they also come for Orlando. Same with Los Angeles and San Francisco. Same with Houston and Dallas. Atlanta and Savannah. The list goes on. If BUF and ROC were both a bustling metropolis, let's say 500k+ each, it would completely revitalize upstate tourism as well as bring newfound economic growth to towns along the Thruway. New York is such a beautiful state and it's sad that so many only come here for NYC and not all the trees, parks, lakes, and great roads we have to offer. Plus, as a downstate resident, I personally would like another city in this state to visit that feels like an actual
city and not just a small downtown area surrounded by miles of suburbs and insignificant towns.
Quote from: vdeane on September 25, 2022, 07:49:51 AM
You might get your wish given telecommuting and other factors causing people to flee to upstate NY, but keep in mind that cities in this state can't annex their suburbs, so they'll never be on the size that they could be in a state with unrestricted annexation. It's also a double-edged sword, and more people means more congestion. I don't think people in upstate NY (me included) have tolerance for the levels of congestion that are routine in larger metro areas.
Also, NYC is big because it's a conglomerate of five counties. It would be smaller if it only contained Manhattan.
Eh, the type of change I'm referring to happens over a century or so. I'm actually glad about the lack of annexation, because I wouldn't want something like the problem Houston and other cities have with uncontrolled urban sprawl. The thing is, no one really has tolerance for congestion, upstate or not. I don't know about the Albany area (assuming that's where you are) but I think Buffalo and Rochester are theoretically more than equipped to handle a couple tens of thousands more people, if not hundreds with new construction. The interstates in the Rochester area, at least when I was there, were way under capacity and almost empty-feeling in the evenings.
Yes, but Manhattan still has a population of 1.629 million, which is still incomparable to NY's #2 city.
Quote from: bing101 on September 25, 2022, 10:01:52 AM
Hempstead, New York if it was an incorporated city would have the same amount of people as Indianapolis City proper and San Francisco.
Hempstead is a town, not a city, though. Even if it was made a technical city it wouldn't have any of the features of one.
Quote from: DTComposer on September 25, 2022, 04:55:34 PM
Quote from: interstatefan990 on September 25, 2022, 04:31:17 AM
New York's most populous city is in the 8 million range and its next most populous city is in the 200,000 range.
Perhaps not surprisingly, New York also has the biggest percentage drop between first and second largest cities:
Buffalo's population is only 3.3% of New York's.
Chicago is #2: Aurora's population is 6.6% of Chicago's.
The smallest drop is West Virginia: Huntington's population is 95.8% of Charleston's.
The average is 51.2%, which just happens to be Kentucky: Lexington's population is 51.2% of Louisville's.
Guessing that Tennessee and Alabama are somewhere in the smallest drop as well, considering that Nashville passed Memphis and Huntsville passed Birmingham between the 2010 and 2020 censuses?
Quote from: interstatefan990 on September 25, 2022, 09:44:11 PM
Quote from: Rothman on September 25, 2022, 07:48:43 AM
Quote from: interstatefan990 on September 25, 2022, 04:31:17 AM
New York's most populous city is in the 8 million range and its next most populous city is in the 200,000 range. This state needs more medium sized cities.
Why?
It's just economically important. Buffalo and Rochester have their fair share of destinations, but they're just too small to drive true out-of-state tourism like other states do. People come to Florida for Miami, but they also come for Orlando. Same with Los Angeles and San Francisco. Same with Houston and Dallas. Atlanta and Savannah. The list goes on. If BUF and ROC were both a bustling metropolis, let's say 500k+ each, it would completely revitalize upstate tourism as well as bring newfound economic growth to towns along the Thruway. New York is such a beautiful state and it's sad that so many only come here for NYC and not all the trees, parks, lakes, and great roads we have to offer. Plus, as a downstate resident, I personally would like another city in this state to visit that feels like an actual city and not just a small downtown area surrounded by miles of suburbs and insignificant towns.
I agree with your sentiment but I think what you're saying is that NY needs another
large city. Buffalo, Rochester, Syracuse, and Albany are all pretty clearly mid-sized cities/metro areas IMO.
And the Buffalo area has Niagara Falls, which is a big draw and almost certainly more well-known nationwide than Savannah, GA... but in terms of large-scale revitalization and/or major growth, I don't really see that happening.
Quote from: interstatefan990 on September 25, 2022, 09:44:11 PM
The thing is, no one really has tolerance for congestion, upstate or not. I don't know about the Albany area (assuming that's where you are) but I think Buffalo and Rochester are theoretically more than equipped to handle a couple tens of thousands more people, if not hundreds with new construction. The interstates in the Rochester area, at least when I was there, were way under capacity and almost empty-feeling in the evenings.
Of course no one likes congestion, but we have it so good in upstate NY that even minor delays annoy us. Things like driving below the speed limit on the freeway, or waiting for two light cycles at a busy intersection.
Yes, both Buffalo and Rochester have road networks that could handle an influx of population, but with some caveats. Buffalo's freeway network functions well overall, but the free section of I-90 is already a problem, especially between Walden Ave and I-290. Rochester is even better off because most thru traffic stays on the Thruway, so there's hardly ever any issues on the freeways aside from a few minor slowdowns at rush hour. The bigger issues would actually be
off the freeway network, since the freeways are hard to access and inconvenient from some areas (Fairport, Pittsford) so navigating the eastern suburbs can be painstaking even outside rush hour. Also, some of our major commercial corridors are at or near capacity including some that are still two/three lanes (and unlike Buffalo, six lanes is very rare), so that would have to be addressed.
Quote from: CtrlAltDel on September 24, 2022, 11:16:35 PMCook County, Illinois, has a greater population than the 98 smallest counties of the state, combined.
I mean, it's no surprise that Cook County is the biggest, but that's all but three counties in the state, which is a lot.
The population centroid of Illinois is in Mazon, which is in Grundy County. Grundy is separated from Cook just by Will and all three are part of the Chicago MSA.
So...we need bigger cities in upstate NY to promote tourism.
Because everyone wants to go to Wichita.
Quote from: bing101 on September 24, 2022, 01:39:53 PM
New Zealand entire country's population has the same amount of people that lives in the City of Los Angeles and Singapore respectively.
Respective of what?
San Jose dropped below 1 million in the 2021 estimate.
Wikipedia has a list of U.S. cities formerly over 100,000 inhabitants. The formerly largest city on that list is Flint, Michigan, which peaked at 197,000 but is now at 81,000. The largest percentage drop is Youngstown, Ohio, which dropped from 170,000 to 60,000.
Internationally, there are some countries which are undergoing demographic collapse. Ukraine is currently an obvious example. However there are more in the former USSR. For example: Moldova dropped from 4.36 million in 1990 to 3.15 million today, or even 2.68 million excluding Transnistria. Armenia dropped from 3.6 million in 1991 to 2.9 million today.
There's also been talking about the upcoming demographic collapse of China, which is seemingly much faster than anticipated, as previous census results were manipulated, so China is likely already in decline.
Demographers say that the Chinese collapse is much faster due to the One Child policy, the official census data doesn't match up with the number of births since 1990. And while the One Child policy has been lifted, the cost of living has gotten so high that most people cannot afford to have children, so its birth rate may be closer to 1 than 2.
Also: China's babyboom began in 1962, after it recovered from the 'Great Leap Forward'. China's retirement age is 60 years. Which means that from 2022, there is mass retirement while the number of people entering the job market is far lower, so their labor shortages are going to be much more acutely and severe than Japan or in western countries. China's economic model of being the world's factory is quickly becoming unsustainable.
Quote from: SkyPesos on September 25, 2022, 10:26:25 PM
Quote from: DTComposer on September 25, 2022, 04:55:34 PM
Quote from: interstatefan990 on September 25, 2022, 04:31:17 AM
New York's most populous city is in the 8 million range and its next most populous city is in the 200,000 range.
Perhaps not surprisingly, New York also has the biggest percentage drop between first and second largest cities:
Buffalo's population is only 3.3% of New York's.
Chicago is #2: Aurora's population is 6.6% of Chicago's.
The smallest drop is West Virginia: Huntington's population is 95.8% of Charleston's.
The average is 51.2%, which just happens to be Kentucky: Lexington's population is 51.2% of Louisville's.
Guessing that Tennessee and Alabama are somewhere in the smallest drop as well, considering that Nashville passed Memphis and Huntsville passed Birmingham between the 2010 and 2020 censuses?
True. Tennessee is second and Alabama is fifth. Full table:
| STATE | City1 | Pop1 | City2 | Pop2 | Pct |
| WEST VIRGINIA | Charleston | 48,018 | Huntington | 46,025 | 95.8% |
| TENNESSEE | Nashville | 678,851 | Memphis | 628,127 | 92.5% |
| NEW JERSEY | Newark | 307,220 | Jersey City | 283,927 | 92.4% |
| CONNECTICUT | Bridgeport | 148,333 | Stamford | 136,309 | 91.9% |
| ALABAMA | Huntsville | 216,963 | Montgomery | 198,665 | 91.6% |
| SOUTH CAROLINA | Charleston | 151,612 | Columbia | 137,541 | 90.7% |
| WYOMING | Cheyenne | 65,051 | Casper | 58,656 | 90.2% |
| NEW HAMPSHIRE | Manchester | 115,462 | Nashua | 91,124 | 78.9% |
| MINNESOTA | Minneapolis | 425,336 | St. Paul | 307,193 | 72.2% |
| UTAH | Salt Lake City | 200,478 | West Valley City | 139,110 | 69.4% |
| COLORADO | Denver | 711,463 | Colorado Springs | 483,956 | 68.0% |
| TEXAS | Houston | 2,288,250 | San Antonio | 1,481,853 | 64.8% |
| IOWA | Des Moines | 212,031 | Cedar Rapids | 136,467 | 64.4% |
| MONTANA | Billings | 117,445 | Missoula | 74,822 | 63.7% |
| NEBRASKA | Omaha | 487,300 | Lincoln | 292,657 | 60.1% |
| OKLAHOMA | Oklahoma City | 687,725 | Tulsa | 411,401 | 59.8% |
| LOUISIANA | New Orleans | 376,971 | Baton Rouge | 222,185 | 58.9% |
| NORTH DAKOTA | Fargo | 126,748 | Bismarck | 74,138 | 58.5% |
| MISSOURI | Kansas City | 508,394 | St. Louis | 293,310 | 57.7% |
| DELAWARE | Wilmington | 70,750 | Dover | 38,992 | 55.1% |
| VIRGINIA | Virginia Beach | 457,672 | Chesapeake | 251,269 | 54.9% |
| KANSAS | Wichita | 365,699 | Overland Park | 197,106 | 53.9% |
| MAINE | Portland | 68,313 | Lewiston | 36,617 | 53.6% |
| NORTH CAROLINA | Charlotte | 879,709 | Raleigh | 469,124 | 53.3% |
| IDAHO | Boise | 237,446 | Meridian | 125,963 | 53.0% |
| KENTUCKY | Louisville | 628,594 | Lexington | 321,793 | 51.2% |
| NEVADA | Las Vegas | 646,790 | Henerson | 322,178 | 49.8% |
| VERMONT | Burlington | 44,781 | Essex | 22,251 | 49.7% |
| MISSISSIPPI | Jackson | 149,761 | Gulfport | 72,105 | 48.1% |
| WISCONSIN | Milwaukee | 569,330 | Madison | 269,196 | 47.3% |
| FLORIDA | Jacksonville | 954,614 | Miami | 439,890 | 46.1% |
| RHODE ISLAND | Providence | 189,692 | Warwick | 83,011 | 43.8% |
| ARKANSAS | Little Rock | 201,998 | Fort Smith | 88,037 | 43.6% |
| GEORGIA | Atlanta | 496,461 | Columbus | 205,617 | 41.4% |
| OHIO | Columbus | 906,528 | Cleveland | 367,991 | 40.6% |
| SOUTH DAKOTA | Sioux Falls | 196,528 | Rapid City | 76,184 | 38.8% |
| CALIFORNIA | Los Angeles | 3,849,297 | San Diego | 1,381,611 | 35.9% |
| ARIZONA | Phoenix | 1,624,569 | Tucson | 543,242 | 33.4% |
| MASSACHUSETTS | Boston | 654,776 | Worcester | 205,918 | 31.4% |
| MICHIGAN | Detroit | 632,464 | Grand Rapids | 197,416 | 31.2% |
| WASHINGTON | Seattle | 733,919 | Spokane | 229,071 | 31.2% |
| INDIANA | Indianapolis | 882,039 | Fort Wayne | 265,974 | 30.2% |
| OREGON | Portland | 641,162 | Salem | 177,723 | 27.7% |
| NEW MEXICO | Albuquerque | 562,599 | Las Cruces | 112,914 | 20.1% |
| PENNSYLVANIA | Philadelphia | 1,576,251 | Pittsburgh | 300,431 | 19.1% |
| MARYLAND | Baltimore | 576,498 | Columbia | 105,412 | 18.3% |
| HAWAI | Honolulu | 345,510 | East Honolulu | 47,132 | 13.6% |
| ALASKA | Anchorage | 288,121 | Fairbanks | 32,515 | 11.3% |
| ILLINOIS | Chicago | 2,696,555 | Aurora | 179,266 | 6.6% |
| NEW YORK | New York | 8,467,513 | Buffalo | 276,807 | 3.3% |
|
Quote from: webny99 on September 25, 2022, 11:04:00 PM
And the Buffalo area has Niagara Falls, which is a big draw and almost certainly more well-known nationwide than Savannah, GA... but in terms of large-scale revitalization and/or major growth, I don't really see that happening.
Niagara Falls in general is probably more well known. But it's its the Canadian side that gets the visitors, not the NY side.
Savannah has a LOT more hotel rooms than Niagara Falls, NY.
Doesn't upstate NY get tourism in the rural areas, like the mountains and the Finger Lakes?
Quote from: SkyPesos on September 23, 2022, 09:41:44 PM
City limit population in general is weird and highly inconsistent, and sometimes defy conventional wisdom. Two of my favorite cases:
Older cities have been boxed in by other municipalities for a long time now, so growth in their metro areas has been entirely outside of the city. Newer cities have been able to annex area much more recently so they've had more growth within their cities. That's how San Jose was able to grow bigger than San Francisco, and Houston and San Antonio were able to grow larger than Dallas.
Quote from: jeffandnicole on September 26, 2022, 12:27:52 PM
Quote from: webny99 on September 25, 2022, 11:04:00 PM
And the Buffalo area has Niagara Falls, which is a big draw and almost certainly more well-known nationwide than Savannah, GA... but in terms of large-scale revitalization and/or major growth, I don't really see that happening.
Niagara Falls in general is probably more well known. But it's its the Canadian side that gets the visitors, not the NY side.
Savannah has a LOT more hotel rooms than Niagara Falls, NY.
Savannah is also much larger than Niagara Falls, NY. I was referring to the Buffalo-Niagara region holistically.
While it's true that the Canadian side gets
more visitors, the NY side gets plenty of visitors too. Niagara Falls State Park is one of the busiest parks in the state, and has much more green space with much lighter crowds than what you'll find on the Canadian side, plus Cave of the Winds, which is one of the top attractions on either side. (And of course, the views are better in Canada because they're
of the US side :meh:)
Quote from: 1 on September 26, 2022, 12:32:43 PM
Doesn't upstate NY get tourism in the rural areas, like the mountains and the Finger Lakes?
Yes, but a lot of it is in-state tourism, or international tourism to the extent that it's not limited by the border crossings. Some areas get tourists from PA, but much of the state is out of day-trip range from other states.
Just as two examples...
-Buffalo-Niagara is an easier day trip from southern Ontario than any other US state
-The Adirondacks are are an easier day trip from the Montreal area than any other US state except Vermont, which has its own tourism industry.
Quote from: kphoger on September 26, 2022, 10:08:16 AM
Quote from: bing101 on September 24, 2022, 01:39:53 PM
New Zealand entire country's population has the same amount of people that lives in the City of Los Angeles and Singapore respectively.
Respective of what?
Population size.
Quote from: bing101 on September 26, 2022, 01:10:07 PM
Quote from: kphoger on September 26, 2022, 10:08:16 AM
Quote from: bing101 on September 24, 2022, 01:39:53 PM
New Zealand entire country's population has the same amount of people that lives in the City of Los Angeles and Singapore respectively.
Respective of what?
Population size.
Respectively means you're keeping the order of items the same. You're comparing one item to two, so it can't even apply here.
Quote from: interstatefan990 on September 25, 2022, 09:44:11 PM
I don't know about the Albany area (assuming that's where you are) but I think Buffalo and Rochester are theoretically more than equipped to handle a couple tens of thousands more people, if not hundreds with new construction. The interstates in the Rochester area, at least when I was there, were way under capacity and almost empty-feeling in the evenings.
The Capital District (Albany/Schenectady/Troy and nearby areas) is similar, if not even less traffic (at least when the tourists aren't going to/from the Adirondacks and Saratoga Springs), especially now that the state and other employers have increased telecommuting over pre-pandemic levels. Oddly enough, that last sentence actually illustrates my point. Having grown up around Rochester and now living north of Albany, I wouldn't describe Rochester's freeways as "way under capacity and almost empty-feeling in the evenings". I'm used to being able to flow at at least the speed limit unimpeded for the vast majority of my drive. Once the traffic level goes from green to yellow (and often even before) on Google Maps, it feels congested to me.
Quote from: vdeane on September 26, 2022, 04:45:06 PM
Quote from: interstatefan990 on September 25, 2022, 09:44:11 PM
I don't know about the Albany area (assuming that's where you are) but I think Buffalo and Rochester are theoretically more than equipped to handle a couple tens of thousands more people, if not hundreds with new construction. The interstates in the Rochester area, at least when I was there, were way under capacity and almost empty-feeling in the evenings.
The Capital District (Albany/Schenectady/Troy and nearby areas) is similar, if not even less traffic (at least when the tourists aren't going to/from the Adirondacks and Saratoga Springs), especially now that the state and other employers have increased telecommuting over pre-pandemic levels. Oddly enough, that last sentence actually illustrates my point. Having grown up around Rochester and now living north of Albany, I wouldn't describe Rochester's freeways as "way under capacity and almost empty-feeling in the evenings". I'm used to being able to flow at at least the speed limit unimpeded for the vast majority of my drive. Once the traffic level goes from green to yellow (and often even before) on Google Maps, it feels congested to me.
It should! Yellow is generally when traffic is moving below the speed limit, moving at about 30- 50 mph, so there's congestion. Red is slow than that. Dark red is about 15 mph and below.
Los Angeles County has more people (10,014,009) than all but ten states. It's barely smaller than #10 Michigan (10,050,811) and will probably pass Michigan in population soon if it hasn't already.
Quote from: skluth on September 26, 2022, 06:28:09 PM
Los Angeles County has more people (10,014,009) than all but ten states. It's barely smaller than #10 Michigan (10,050,811) and will probably pass Michigan in population soon if it hasn't already.
Another (albeit slightly less) surprising fact from this post is that Michigan is in the top 10 population-wise. I would imagine it in top 20 but not top 10.
Quote from: skluth on September 26, 2022, 06:28:09 PM
Los Angeles County has more people (10,014,009) than all but ten states. It's barely smaller than #10 Michigan (10,050,811) and will probably pass Michigan in population soon if it hasn't already.
Quote from: kirbykart on September 26, 2022, 07:22:08 PM
Another (albeit slightly less) surprising fact from this post is that Michigan is in the top 10 population-wise. I would imagine it in top 20 but not top 10.
Not sure why that is surprising, as Michigan has been in the Top Ten since the 1880 U.S. Census. The population loss of Detroit was significant, but overall population declines in two other traditional Top Ten states (Massachusetts and New Jersey) dropped them out completely. Michigan is still hanging around.
Quote from: webny99 on September 25, 2022, 11:04:00 PM
I agree with your sentiment but I think what you're saying is that NY needs another large city. Buffalo, Rochester, Syracuse, and Albany are all pretty clearly mid-sized cities/metro areas IMO.
Depends on what you consider a "medium sized" city. For me, any city below 350-400K is midsized, but interpretations vary.
Quote from: webny99 on September 25, 2022, 11:04:00 PM
And the Buffalo area has Niagara Falls, which is a big draw and almost certainly more well-known nationwide than Savannah, GA... but in terms of large-scale revitalization and/or major growth, I don't really see that happening.
Also up to interpretation. And yeah, most of what I'm saying here is just a pipe dream.
Quote from: webny99 on September 25, 2022, 11:04:00 PM
Quote from: interstatefan990 on September 25, 2022, 09:44:11 PM
The thing is, no one really has tolerance for congestion, upstate or not. I don't know about the Albany area (assuming that's where you are) but I think Buffalo and Rochester are theoretically more than equipped to handle a couple tens of thousands more people, if not hundreds with new construction. The interstates in the Rochester area, at least when I was there, were way under capacity and almost empty-feeling in the evenings.
Of course no one likes congestion, but we have it so good in upstate NY that even minor delays annoy us. Things like driving below the speed limit on the freeway, or waiting for two light cycles at a busy intersection.
Yes, both Buffalo and Rochester have road networks that could handle an influx of population, but with some caveats. Buffalo's freeway network functions well overall, but the free section of I-90 is already a problem, especially between Walden Ave and I-290. Rochester is even better off because most thru traffic stays on the Thruway, so there's hardly ever any issues on the freeways aside from a few minor slowdowns at rush hour. The bigger issues would actually be off the freeway network, since the freeways are hard to access and inconvenient from some areas (Fairport, Pittsford) so navigating the eastern suburbs can be painstaking even outside rush hour. Also, some of our major commercial corridors are at or near capacity including some that are still two/three lanes (and unlike Buffalo, six lanes is very rare), so that would have to be addressed.
I guess all metro areas with a population increase are doomed to traffic
somehow. :spin:
I definitely agree with that though, in areas closer to inner Rochester the connectors, arterials, major streets were moderately congested, even in the later hours. But I didn't see a whole lot of utilization of the major roads even just outside city limits. Yes, if it experienced an influx of population it still technically wouldn't be a part of the city, but that's just the way things are built in this state. I wonder if metro areas matter as much as city areas in terms of tourism, though.
Quote from: 1 on September 26, 2022, 12:32:43 PM
Doesn't upstate NY get tourism in the rural areas, like the mountains and the Finger Lakes?
Yes, but tourism with a lowercase t. Like webny99 said, it's mostly in-staters visiting for the weekend with an insignificant small number of out-of-staters (or out-of-countriers). NY sometimes runs tourism ads showcasing the scenic rural areas of the state, but the reality is it'll never be a major tourist attraction area.
Quote from: vdeane on September 26, 2022, 04:45:06 PM
The Capital District (Albany/Schenectady/Troy and nearby areas) is similar, if not even less traffic (at least when the tourists aren't going to/from the Adirondacks and Saratoga Springs), especially now that the state and other employers have increased telecommuting over pre-pandemic levels. Oddly enough, that last sentence actually illustrates my point. Having grown up around Rochester and now living north of Albany, I wouldn't describe Rochester's freeways as "way under capacity and almost empty-feeling in the evenings". I'm used to being able to flow at at least the speed limit unimpeded for the vast majority of my drive. Once the traffic level goes from green to yellow (and often even before) on Google Maps, it feels congested to me.
Yes, I don't think you'll need to worry about any major traffic increase for the foreseeable future. I visited Rochester this June, and mostly avoided rush hour and did a lot of my travel on I-390 and I-90, so perhaps I just didn't see the worst of it. Maybe next time I visit I'll do a more extensive tour of the area's freeways, and even volunteer to venture out during rush hour.
Quote from: Rothman on September 25, 2022, 11:50:15 PM
So...we need bigger cities in upstate NY to promote tourism.
Because everyone wants to go to Wichita.
I'm almost offended by your comparison of Kansas and New York! :pan:
Hey, everyone wants to go to Las Vegas, and that's practically in the middle of a desert. It's what's
in the city that counts.
Quote from: interstatefan990 on September 26, 2022, 11:25:07 PM
Quote from: Rothman on September 25, 2022, 11:50:15 PM
So...we need bigger cities in upstate NY to promote tourism.
Because everyone wants to go to Wichita.
I'm almost offended by your comparison of Kansas and New York! :pan:
Hey, everyone wants to go to Las Vegas, and that's practically in the middle of a desert. It's what's in the city that counts.
Which is why I find your focus on city size more than a little headscratching.
Quote from: interstatefan990 on September 26, 2022, 11:25:07 PM
Quote from: webny99 on September 25, 2022, 11:04:00 PM
I agree with your sentiment but I think what you're saying is that NY needs another large city. Buffalo, Rochester, Syracuse, and Albany are all pretty clearly mid-sized cities/metro areas IMO.
Depends on what you consider a "medium sized" city. For me, any city below 350-400K is midsized, but interpretations vary.
St Louis, Cincinnati and Pittsburgh are "mid-sized" while El Paso, Mesa AZ and Aurora CO are "large" then?
Quote from: Dirt Roads on September 26, 2022, 09:26:57 PM
Quote from: skluth on September 26, 2022, 06:28:09 PM
Los Angeles County has more people (10,014,009) than all but ten states. It's barely smaller than #10 Michigan (10,050,811) and will probably pass Michigan in population soon if it hasn't already.
Quote from: kirbykart on September 26, 2022, 07:22:08 PM
Another (albeit slightly less) surprising fact from this post is that Michigan is in the top 10 population-wise. I would imagine it in top 20 but not top 10.
Not sure why that is surprising, as Michigan has been in the Top Ten since the 1880 U.S. Census. The population loss of Detroit was significant, but overall population declines in two other traditional Top Ten states (Massachusetts and New Jersey) dropped them out completely. Michigan is still hanging around.
It's surprising because very few people would have ever figured Michigan in the top 10. At any point. I would have figured Michigan to be like #18.
Quote from: interstatefan990 on September 26, 2022, 11:25:07 PM
Quote from: webny99 on September 25, 2022, 11:04:00 PM
I agree with your sentiment but I think what you're saying is that NY needs another large city. Buffalo, Rochester, Syracuse, and Albany are all pretty clearly mid-sized cities/metro areas IMO.
Depends on what you consider a "medium sized" city. For me, any city below 350-400K is midsized, but interpretations vary.
I don't disagree with that, but I guess I misunderstood your original point:
Quote from: interstatefan990 on September 25, 2022, 04:31:17 AM
This state needs more medium sized cities.
You're saying NY needs
more cities the size of Buffalo and Rochester?
Here's a fun one: NYC is more populous than all of these states combined:
(https://map1.maploco.com/visited-states/ml/ID-MT-ND-NE-SD-WY-AK.png)
Quote from: Rothman on September 27, 2022, 07:03:28 AM
Quote from: interstatefan990 on September 26, 2022, 11:25:07 PM
Quote from: Rothman on September 25, 2022, 11:50:15 PM
So...we need bigger cities in upstate NY to promote tourism.
Because everyone wants to go to Wichita.
I'm almost offended by your comparison of Kansas and New York! :pan:
Hey, everyone wants to go to Las Vegas, and that's practically in the middle of a desert. It's what's in the city that counts.
Which is why I find your focus on city size more than a little headscratching.
Because the larger the city, the more attractions it has, the more hotel rooms, the more tourist destinations, the more visitors, etc, etc, etc. Las Vegas has a population of over 641,000 in case you forgot.
Quote from: SkyPesos on September 27, 2022, 08:44:00 AM
St Louis, Cincinnati and Pittsburgh are "mid-sized" while El Paso, Mesa AZ and Aurora CO are "large" then?
Well, obviously when you get closer to the boundaries of my approximation of a "rule" for midsized or large cities, or a lot of "rules" for that matter, the rule gets fuzzy, but I think it's still a good guideline. I admit there can be other factors considered as well, like actual city square mileage and quality of tourist attractions.
Quote from: webny99 on September 27, 2022, 09:42:35 AM
You're saying NY needs more cities the size of Buffalo and Rochester?
Honestly, either that or the larger cities, but I was leaning towards the latter because of the disproportionate population drop between the state's #1 and #2 cities. I guess my main point is I kind of want NY to be known on a national scale for more than just NYC, Buffalo, and Rochester.
Quote from: webny99 on September 27, 2022, 09:59:01 AM
Here's a fun one: NYC is more populous than all of these states combined:
(https://map1.maploco.com/visited-states/ml/ID-MT-ND-NE-SD-WY-AK.png)
Another fun one is that Alaska is more populous than Vermont. When Alaska is seen as so desolate, it actually has some pretty good-sized population centers.
Quote from: kirbykart on September 27, 2022, 12:50:04 PM
Another fun one is that Alaska is more populous than Vermont. When Alaska is seen as so desolate, it actually has some pretty good-sized population centers.
Well, to be fair, Alaska is 69 times the size of Vermont.
Quote from: CtrlAltDel on September 27, 2022, 01:02:18 PM
Quote from: kirbykart on September 27, 2022, 12:50:04 PM
Another fun one is that Alaska is more populous than Vermont. When Alaska is seen as so desolate, it actually has some pretty good-sized population centers.
Well, to be fair, Alaska is 69 times the size of Vermont.
Nice.
Quote from: interstatefan990 on September 27, 2022, 12:45:02 PM
Quote from: Rothman on September 27, 2022, 07:03:28 AM
Which is why I find your focus on city size more than a little headscratching.
Because the larger the city, the more attractions it has, the more hotel rooms, the more tourist destinations, the more visitors, etc, etc, etc. Las Vegas has a population of over 641,000 in case you forgot.
Pedantic reminder that, by far, the largest driver of tourism (the Strip) is located outside of the Las Vegas city limits.
The eye test tells us that the relationship of city size to tourist draw is not parallel. Who is getting more tourists:
Charlotte or San Francisco?
San Jose or Boston?
Indianapolis or Washington, DC?
Jacksonville or Miami?
The use of MSA/CSAs probably makes this relationship more parallel, but there are still outliers that "punch above their weight" - Orlando vs. Detroit or Houston; Las Vegas, Nashville, or New Orleans vs. Cleveland, Charlotte, or Sacramento; etc.
Quote from: interstatefan990 on September 27, 2022, 12:45:02 PM
Quote from: Rothman on September 27, 2022, 07:03:28 AM
Quote from: interstatefan990 on September 26, 2022, 11:25:07 PM
Quote from: Rothman on September 25, 2022, 11:50:15 PM
So...we need bigger cities in upstate NY to promote tourism.
Because everyone wants to go to Wichita.
I'm almost offended by your comparison of Kansas and New York! :pan:
Hey, everyone wants to go to Las Vegas, and that's practically in the middle of a desert. It's what's in the city that counts.
Which is why I find your focus on city size more than a little headscratching.
Because the larger the city, the more attractions it has, the more hotel rooms, the more tourist destinations, the more visitors, etc, etc, etc. Las Vegas has a population of over 641,000 in case you forgot.
That's not true. If what you said was true, even more people would be running to LA than Las Vegas, when in reality, LA receives millions of fewer visitors than Las Vegas.
Quote from: interstatefan990 on September 27, 2022, 12:45:02 PM
Because the larger the city, the more attractions it has, the more hotel rooms, the more tourist destinations, the more visitors, etc, etc, etc. Las Vegas has a population of over 641,000 in case you forgot.
And, in case
you forgot, its population was less than half that just 30 years ago–yet tourists were nevertheless flocking to it in droves.
For what it's worth, the population of Branson (MO) is less than 15k, but there are twice as many hotel rooms in Branson as there are in Wichita (KS). In fact, there are more hotel rooms in Branson than there are residents.
Quote from: CtrlAltDel on September 27, 2022, 01:02:18 PM
Quote from: kirbykart on September 27, 2022, 12:50:04 PM
Another fun one is that Alaska is more populous than Vermont. When Alaska is seen as so desolate, it actually has some pretty good-sized population centers.
Well, to be fair, Alaska is 69 times the size of Vermont.
Yeah, it seems crazier to me when you put it the other way: Alaska is
less populous than Rhode Island or Delaware.
Quote from: DTComposer on September 27, 2022, 01:34:39 PM
Quote from: interstatefan990 on September 27, 2022, 12:45:02 PM
Quote from: Rothman on September 27, 2022, 07:03:28 AM
Which is why I find your focus on city size more than a little headscratching.
Because the larger the city, the more attractions it has, the more hotel rooms, the more tourist destinations, the more visitors, etc, etc, etc. Las Vegas has a population of over 641,000 in case you forgot.
Pedantic reminder that, by far, the largest driver of tourism (the Strip) is located outside of the Las Vegas city limits.
The eye test tells us that the relationship of city size to tourist draw is not parallel. Who is getting more tourists:
Charlotte or San Francisco?
San Jose or Boston?
Indianapolis or Washington, DC?
Jacksonville or Miami?
The use of MSA/CSAs probably makes this relationship more parallel, but there are still outliers that "punch above their weight" - Orlando vs. Detroit or Houston; Las Vegas, Nashville, or New Orleans vs. Cleveland, Charlotte, or Sacramento; etc.
I know that. I wasn't referring to tourism strictly within city limits. As a ***general*** rule, a city with a larger population will have more tourism in its own limits and/or within its surrounding region, or MSA/CSA like you said. Walt Disney World isn't within Orlando, but that doesn't mean the two have
nothing to do with each other. Yeah, the Strip isn't within Vegas limits, but I'm sure if you just plucked it out and placed it in some random location in a Nevada desert it would cease to exist. Also, you can't just draw these comparisons without considering other factors. Weather? Reason for tourism? Even more crucially: in state tourism or out of staters? Sure, Jacksonville or San Jose may not matter that much to people not in their respective states, but for those that
are, it's a different story.
Quote from: Rothman on September 27, 2022, 01:37:38 PM
That's not true. If what you said was true, even more people would be running to LA than Las Vegas, when in reality, LA receives millions of fewer visitors than Las Vegas.
Why do you all love to assume that when I, or anyone really, say something, I am speaking in
the strictest and most specific terms possible? Of course there will be exceptions, that's basic human (geo)anthropology.
Also, you're joking me, right?
(https://i.ibb.co/sCnT96v/IMG-9808.png) (https://i.ibb.co/MfpDb1P/IMG-9809.png)
Quote from: kphoger on September 27, 2022, 01:53:31 PM
And, in case you forgot, its population was less than half that just 30 years ago–yet tourists were nevertheless flocking to it in droves.
Love the combined bold and italic to address me. Really nice touch. :thumbsup:
Of course, but what you're forgetting is that the area's population has grown along with its tourism numbers. In 1989, there were about 18.1 million visitors with a metro area population of about 673,000. In 2019, there were more than double that number of tourists, with about 42.5 million visitors and a metro area population of 2.621 million. Take a look for yourself (https://res.cloudinary.com/simpleview/image/upload/v1657124125/clients/lasvegas/Las_Vegas_Historical_1970_to_2021_6daf7d31-5fd3-44b2-ad99-427bf62454ba.pdf).
Pfft. Instead of "Discover California," go with the CEO of Los Angeles Tourism and Convention Board, who claimed only 31m visitors in 2019 -- 11m less than Las Vegas.
I know this is a result of the classic MSA vs city population thing, but I find it weird that Boise has a higher population than Salt Lake City. As I've spent plenty of time in both, SLC feels way more like the "big city".
But even Salt Lake City's MSA is pretty weird. The city of North Salt Lake, directly bordering the city limits of Salt Lake City, is not in the same MSA. All of Davis County is part of the Ogden MSA. While I do see justification of having separate SLC and Ogden MSAs, splitting at the county lines creates this silly situation, to the point where I'd probably just make it one MSA (there is of course a CSA containing both, as well as Provo). If you could split it more granularly, I would split the MSAs at Farmington. This also means SLC's MSA population is pretty misleading and punches kinda above its weight.
Quote from: Rothman on September 27, 2022, 03:28:12 PM
Pfft. Instead of "Discover California," go with the CEO of Los Angeles Tourism and Convention Board, who claimed only 31m visitors in 2019 -- 11m less than Las Vegas.
The Discover Los Angeles website is run by the L.A. Tourism and Convention Board, so they can't even get their own statistics consistent...
Quote from: interstatefan990 on September 27, 2022, 02:46:37 PM
Yeah, the Strip isn't within Vegas limits, but I'm sure if you just plucked it out and placed it in some random location in a Nevada desert it would cease to exist.
Would it? Assuming you're also taking infrastructure and services for workers, wouldn't you just have a larger Branson, but with a gambling focus?
That said, Las Vegas
was a random location in a Nevada desert when it was founded in 1905. Even by 1940 when the Strip really started to grow, there were only 16,000 people in Clark County. Had the strip happened in Winnemucca (another mid-desert railroad stop along a cross-country US highway) would it now be Vegas-sized? Possibly not, as additional factors for Las Vegas include its relative proximity to Los Angeles, and the Hoover/Boulder Dam project in the 1930s. But certainly for thirty to fifty years, the Strip was the primary driver of growth in Clark County.
Quote from: interstatefan990 on September 27, 2022, 02:46:37 PM
Why do you all love to assume that when I, or anyone really, say something, I am speaking in the strictest and most specific terms possible? Of course there will be exceptions, that's basic human (geo)anthropology.
My apologies, I'm not trying to raise anyone's hackles here. But you made an assertion (city size drives tourism numbers), gave a statistic (Las Vegas city population) but then used additional information (the Strip, 42 million visitors) that includes the metro area - I am a little pedantic about city vs. metro when it comes to these types of conversations.
For the assertion itself, I was trying to make the counter-assertion that population is not the primary driver of tourism, and that it's more than "there will be exceptions."
To support that, I give you the 25 US metro areas with the largest number of foreign visitors in 2019, compared with the metro areas' population rank.
I am sure that including domestic visitors as well might change these numbers, but in 20 minutes of Googling I could not find a consistent source for domestic tourism.
| METRO AREA | Tourism Rank | Population Rank | Difference |
| New York | 1 | 1 | 0 |
| Miami-Ft. Lauderdale | 2 | 9 | 7 |
| Los Angeles-Anaheim | 3 | 2 | 1 |
| Orlando | 4 | 23 | 19 |
| San Francisco | 5 | 13 | 8 |
| Las Vegas | 6 | 29 | 23 |
| Honolulu | 7 | 56 | 49 |
| Washington | 8 | 6 | 2 |
| Boston | 9 | 11 | 2 |
| Chicago | 10 | 3 | 7 |
| San Diego | 11 | 17 | 6 |
| Houston | 12 | 5 | 7 |
| Seattle | 13 | 15 | 2 |
| Flagstaff | 14 | 291 | 277 |
| Atlanta | 15 | 8 | 7 |
| Philadelphia | 16 | 7 | 9 |
| Dallas | 17 | 4 | 13 |
| Tampa | 18 | 18 | 0 |
| San Jose | 19 | 36 | 17 |
| New Orleans | 21 | 47 | 26 |
| Phoenix | 22 | 10 | 12 |
| Denver | 23 | 19 | 4 |
| Riverside | 24 | 12 | 12 |
| Buffalo | 25 | 49 | 24 |
Source: https://www.yahoo.com/now/30-most-visited-cities-u-145000465.html (https://www.yahoo.com/now/30-most-visited-cities-u-145000465.html)
Note that I combined the metropolitan divisions on this list (Los Angeles and Anaheim, Miami and Fort Lauderdale) so that the list was consistently metropolitan areas.Even taking out the outlier (Flagstaff), the average difference between tourism and population rank is 11. Seven of the top 25 metro areas by population (Detroit, Minneapolis, Baltimore, St. Louis, Charlotte, San Antonio, Portland) don't make the top 25 of tourism.
I'm happy to see additional statistics that support or disprove either side of this discussion.
Quote from: DTComposer on September 27, 2022, 06:30:21 PM
Quote from: interstatefan990 on September 27, 2022, 02:46:37 PM
Yeah, the Strip isn't within Vegas limits, but I'm sure if you just plucked it out and placed it in some random location in a Nevada desert it would cease to exist.
Would it? Assuming you're also taking infrastructure and services for workers, wouldn't you just have a larger Branson, but with a gambling focus?
That said, Las Vegas was a random location in a Nevada desert when it was founded in 1905. Even by 1940 when the Strip really started to grow, there were only 16,000 people in Clark County. Had the strip happened in Winnemucca (another mid-desert railroad stop along a cross-country US highway) would it now be Vegas-sized? Possibly not, as additional factors for Las Vegas include its relative proximity to Los Angeles, and the Hoover/Boulder Dam project in the 1930s. But certainly for thirty to fifty years, the Strip was the primary driver of growth in Clark County.
That's what I was thinking. My maternal grandparents visited Las Vegas on their honeymoon, and my mom is 70 years old, so that must have been in the 1940s (considering that my mom was adopted after my grandparents had tried for years to conceive). At that time, it was teeny-weeny, but it was nonetheless a place that two people on their honeymoon would stop and visit.
Las Vegas population:
(https://i.imgur.com/KdogCq9.png)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1790_United_States_census
Marblehead MA, with only 20K people in 2020, was the 11th most populated city in the USA in the inaugural census.
Nantucket, then called Sherburne, has only twice the population in 2020 of its 1790 count.
Even Gilmanton NH was #38 in the US, with 2613 people then, to 3945 centuries later.
Quote from: DTComposer on September 27, 2022, 06:30:21 PM
Would it? Assuming you're also taking infrastructure and services for workers, wouldn't you just have a larger Branson, but with a gambling focus?
It's hard to say. One can't really quantify the relationship between the Strip and Las Vegas itself. But there has to be significance of people who come for both, or people who come for purposes not primarily related to gambling.
Quote from: DTComposer on September 27, 2022, 06:30:21 PM
I give you the 25 US metro areas with the largest number of foreign visitors in 2019, compared with the metro areas' population rank.
[table snipped]
Even taking out the outlier (Flagstaff), the average difference between tourism and population rank is 11. Seven of the top 25 metro areas by population (Detroit, Minneapolis, Baltimore, St. Louis, Charlotte, San Antonio, Portland) don't make the top 25 of tourism.
I'm happy to see additional statistics that support or disprove either side of this discussion.
This weirdly proves and disproves my rule at the same time. Going off your list, the top 5 population centers are all in the top 25 for tourism, as are the next 5. However, after that, starting with population size #14, some aren't included in the list. Nor are #16 and #20, and so on. The seven that you are referring to that don't make the top 25 for tourism also happen to not make the first 14 for population. So while this may appear to disprove a link between tourism and population on one end, I think it's a double edged sword and also roughly proves the link on the other end. Maybe this rule just disintegrates the further down a population list you go?
Quote from: doorknob60 on September 27, 2022, 06:24:36 PM
I know this is a result of the classic MSA vs city population thing, but I find it weird that Boise has a higher population than Salt Lake City. As I've spent plenty of time in both, SLC feels way more like the "big city".
But even Salt Lake City's MSA is pretty weird. The city of North Salt Lake, directly bordering the city limits of Salt Lake City, is not in the same MSA. All of Davis County is part of the Ogden MSA. While I do see justification of having separate SLC and Ogden MSAs, splitting at the county lines creates this silly situation, to the point where I'd probably just make it one MSA (there is of course a CSA containing both, as well as Provo). If you could split it more granularly, I would split the MSAs at Farmington. This also means SLC's MSA population is pretty misleading and punches kinda above its weight.
NC have two of these "separated MSAs that should really be one" examples: Greensboro-Winston Salem and Raleigh-Durham
Quote from: interstatefan990 on September 27, 2022, 09:25:36 PM
This weirdly proves and disproves my rule at the same time.
That would be disproving it, then.
Quote from: DTComposer on September 27, 2022, 06:30:21 PM
Quote from: Rothman on September 27, 2022, 03:28:12 PM
Pfft. Instead of "Discover California," go with the CEO of Los Angeles Tourism and Convention Board, who claimed only 31m visitors in 2019 -- 11m less than Las Vegas.
The Discover Los Angeles website is run by the L.A. Tourism and Convention Board, so they can't even get their own statistics consistent...
Quote from: interstatefan990 on September 27, 2022, 02:46:37 PM
Yeah, the Strip isn't within Vegas limits, but I'm sure if you just plucked it out and placed it in some random location in a Nevada desert it would cease to exist.
Would it? Assuming you're also taking infrastructure and services for workers, wouldn't you just have a larger Branson, but with a gambling focus?
That said, Las Vegas was a random location in a Nevada desert when it was founded in 1905. Even by 1940 when the Strip really started to grow, there were only 16,000 people in Clark County. Had the strip happened in Winnemucca (another mid-desert railroad stop along a cross-country US highway) would it now be Vegas-sized? Possibly not, as additional factors for Las Vegas include its relative proximity to Los Angeles, and the Hoover/Boulder Dam project in the 1930s. But certainly for thirty to fifty years, the Strip was the primary driver of growth in Clark County.
Quote from: interstatefan990 on September 27, 2022, 02:46:37 PM
Why do you all love to assume that when I, or anyone really, say something, I am speaking in the strictest and most specific terms possible? Of course there will be exceptions, that's basic human (geo)anthropology.
My apologies, I'm not trying to raise anyone's hackles here. But you made an assertion (city size drives tourism numbers), gave a statistic (Las Vegas city population) but then used additional information (the Strip, 42 million visitors) that includes the metro area - I am a little pedantic about city vs. metro when it comes to these types of conversations.
For the assertion itself, I was trying to make the counter-assertion that population is not the primary driver of tourism, and that it's more than "there will be exceptions."
To support that, I give you the 25 US metro areas with the largest number of foreign visitors in 2019, compared with the metro areas' population rank.
I am sure that including domestic visitors as well might change these numbers, but in 20 minutes of Googling I could not find a consistent source for domestic tourism.
| METRO AREA | Tourism Rank | Population Rank | Difference |
| New York | 1 | 1 | 0 |
| Miami-Ft. Lauderdale | 2 | 9 | 7 |
| Los Angeles-Anaheim | 3 | 2 | 1 |
| Orlando | 4 | 23 | 19 |
| San Francisco | 5 | 13 | 8 |
| Las Vegas | 6 | 29 | 23 |
| Honolulu | 7 | 56 | 49 |
| Washington | 8 | 6 | 2 |
| Boston | 9 | 11 | 2 |
| Chicago | 10 | 3 | 7 |
| San Diego | 11 | 17 | 6 |
| Houston | 12 | 5 | 7 |
| Seattle | 13 | 15 | 2 |
| Flagstaff | 14 | 291 | 277 |
| Atlanta | 15 | 8 | 7 |
| Philadelphia | 16 | 7 | 9 |
| Dallas | 17 | 4 | 13 |
| Tampa | 18 | 18 | 0 |
| San Jose | 19 | 36 | 17 |
| New Orleans | 21 | 47 | 26 |
| Phoenix | 22 | 10 | 12 |
| Denver | 23 | 19 | 4 |
| Riverside | 24 | 12 | 12 |
| Buffalo | 25 | 49 | 24 |
Source: https://www.yahoo.com/now/30-most-visited-cities-u-145000465.html (https://www.yahoo.com/now/30-most-visited-cities-u-145000465.html)
Note that I combined the metropolitan divisions on this list (Los Angeles and Anaheim, Miami and Fort Lauderdale) so that the list was consistently metropolitan areas.
Even taking out the outlier (Flagstaff), the average difference between tourism and population rank is 11. Seven of the top 25 metro areas by population (Detroit, Minneapolis, Baltimore, St. Louis, Charlotte, San Antonio, Portland) don't make the top 25 of tourism.
I'm happy to see additional statistics that support or disprove either side of this discussion.
What I see in the list is a couple different -partially overlapping - groups:
1. One-of-a-kind natural attraction. ( Buffalo, Flagstaff)
2. (almost) one-of-a-kind man-made attraction (Las Vegas, Orlando)
3. Crossroads (Atlanta, and Chicago as huge airline hubs)
4. Gateway to common vacation (Miami, Denver)
Group 3 has most correlation to population size. WHat can someone do in Atlanta other than seeing US on the cheap due to a direct flight to big Delta hub?
Bristol County, Massachusetts has more people than the entire state of Wyoming, which is crazy to me because the area feels very rural to me.
Quote from: BlueOutback7 on September 28, 2022, 08:11:13 AM
Bristol County, Massachusetts has more people than the entire state of Wyoming, which is crazy to me because the area feels very rural to me.
As someone who grew up in "rural" Massachusetts, all you have to do is look around. Unlike other truly rural areas of other states, you'll see driveways/houses everywhere in MA, even in the "deep woods."
Not a super crazy one, but Erie County, NY has over 150,000 more people than the state of North Dakota.
Quote from: SkyPesos on September 27, 2022, 10:19:23 PMNC have two of these "separated MSAs that should really be one" examples: Greensboro-Winston Salem and Raleigh-Durham
If the former is The Triad, and the latter is The Triangle...Welcome to the Tridangle / Hex Cities / Sexboros!
Maybe it's best they stay apart; it's a roughly 75/90-minute drive between them.
Quote from: Rothman on September 27, 2022, 10:41:02 PM
Quote from: interstatefan990 on September 27, 2022, 09:25:36 PM
This weirdly proves and disproves my rule at the same time.
That would be disproving it, then.
Not necessarily. I did say it was a general rule and that there would be exceptions.
Quote from: interstatefan990 on September 28, 2022, 12:16:15 PM
Quote from: Rothman on September 27, 2022, 10:41:02 PM
Quote from: interstatefan990 on September 27, 2022, 09:25:36 PM
This weirdly proves and disproves my rule at the same time.
That would be disproving it, then.
Not necessarily. I did say it was a general rule and that there would be exceptions.
It depends on how many exceptions you allow before they become not exceptions. In this list, 40% of the entries have differences of 10 or more between population and tourism. I'd consider that difference significant, and that amount enough to become not exceptions, but it can be up to personal interpretation.
For what it's worth, the next two entries on the tourism list (and the last two provided in the source list) are:
Monterey - #26 tourism, #124 metro population, 98 difference
Naples - #27 tourism, #141 metro population, 114 difference
Quote from: SkyPesos on September 27, 2022, 10:19:23 PMNC have two of these "separated MSAs that should really be one" examples: Greensboro-Winston Salem and Raleigh-Durham
Quote from: formulanone on September 28, 2022, 09:40:03 AM
If the former is The Triad, and the latter is The Triangle...Welcome to the Tridangle / Hex Cities / Sexboros!
Maybe it's best they stay apart; it's a roughly 75/90-minute drive between them.
Your information is way out-of-date. We have three MSAs in Central Carolina: Raleigh/Cary MSA; Durham/Chapel Hill MSA; and Greensboro/Winston-Salem/High Point (Triad). The Triangle got busted up back in 2000, if I recall correctly.
Quote from: DTComposer on September 28, 2022, 08:23:10 PM
For what it's worth, the next two entries on the tourism list (and the last two provided in the source list) are:
Monterey - #26 tourism, #124 metro population, 98 difference
Naples - #27 tourism, #141 metro population, 114 difference
Those could be considered outliers like Flagstaff, right?
Quote from: Dirt Roads on September 28, 2022, 08:57:54 PM
Quote from: SkyPesos on September 27, 2022, 10:19:23 PMNC have two of these "separated MSAs that should really be one" examples: Greensboro-Winston Salem and Raleigh-Durham
Quote from: formulanone on September 28, 2022, 09:40:03 AM
If the former is The Triad, and the latter is The Triangle...Welcome to the Tridangle / Hex Cities / Sexboros!
Maybe it's best they stay apart; it's a roughly 75/90-minute drive between them.
Your information is way out-of-date. We have three MSAs in Central Carolina: Raleigh/Cary MSA; Durham/Chapel Hill MSA; and Greensboro/Winston-Salem/High Point (Triad). The Triangle got busted up back in 2000, if I recall correctly.
The Triangle and the Triad are still two real things, but there are cities growing between them (Burlington, Graham, Mebane, Hillsborough, etc.) that are likely to make the whole thing one huge conurbation in the next 20-30 years, same as between Austin and San Antonio.
Quote from: interstatefan990 on September 28, 2022, 09:13:44 PM
Quote from: DTComposer on September 28, 2022, 08:23:10 PM
For what it's worth, the next two entries on the tourism list (and the last two provided in the source list) are:
Monterey - #26 tourism, #124 metro population, 98 difference
Naples - #27 tourism, #141 metro population, 114 difference
Those could be considered outliers like Flagstaff, right?
Heh. When your dataset is mostly outliers, your assertion about causation is weakened.
Quote from: SkyPesos on September 27, 2022, 10:19:23 PMNC have two of these "separated MSAs that should really be one" examples: Greensboro-Winston Salem and Raleigh-Durham
Quote from: formulanone on September 28, 2022, 09:40:03 AM
If the former is The Triad, and the latter is The Triangle...Welcome to the Tridangle / Hex Cities / Sexboros!
Maybe it's best they stay apart; it's a roughly 75/90-minute drive between them.
Quote from: Dirt Roads on September 28, 2022, 08:57:54 PM
Your information is way out-of-date. We have three MSAs in Central Carolina: Raleigh/Cary MSA; Durham/Chapel Hill MSA; and Greensboro/Winston-Salem/High Point (Triad). The Triangle got busted up back in 2000, if I recall correctly.
Quote from: Road Hog on September 28, 2022, 10:13:29 PM
The Triangle and the Triad are still two real things, but there are cities growing between them (Burlington, Graham, Mebane, Hillsborough, etc.) that are likely to make the whole thing one huge conurbation in the next 20-30 years, same as between Austin and San Antonio.
Agreed. I now live in part of the overlap. For those not seeing my previous posts on this subject, folks working in Greensboro have been jumping over Alamance County and moving to Orange County for access to our well-respected public schools. Folks that work in the Triangle have been jumping over Durham and Orange and moving into Alamance for cheap land and low taxes for at the last three decades. On the border between Orange and Alamance, the town of Mebane is growing like crazy (much of it in the extra-territorial jurisdiction). https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=16931.msg2773239#msg2773239
Quote from: Rothman on September 29, 2022, 06:58:30 AM
Quote from: interstatefan990 on September 28, 2022, 09:13:44 PM
Quote from: DTComposer on September 28, 2022, 08:23:10 PM
For what it's worth, the next two entries on the tourism list (and the last two provided in the source list) are:
Monterey - #26 tourism, #124 metro population, 98 difference
Naples - #27 tourism, #141 metro population, 114 difference
Those could be considered outliers like Flagstaff, right?
Heh. When your dataset is mostly outliers, your assertion about causation is weakened.
Mostly outliers? I see the vast majority of the numbers in the Difference column are single digit or low double digit numbers.
Quote from: interstatefan990 on September 28, 2022, 09:13:44 PM
Quote from: DTComposer on September 28, 2022, 08:23:10 PM
For what it's worth, the next two entries on the tourism list (and the last two provided in the source list) are:
Monterey - #26 tourism, #124 metro population, 98 difference
Naples - #27 tourism, #141 metro population, 114 difference
Those could be considered outliers like Flagstaff, right?
Perhaps, but unfortunately we don't have a complete set of data to work with, since the source list did not go any further down. Certainly some of the larger metros I mentioned (San Antonio, Portland) would show up somewhere nearby, but there are also a number of "outliers" that would likely show up soon as well (Atlantic City, Santa Barbara, Hilton Head, Santa Fe, Napa, etc.).
Quote from: interstatefan990 on September 29, 2022, 12:20:24 PM
Quote from: Rothman on September 29, 2022, 06:58:30 AM
Quote from: interstatefan990 on September 28, 2022, 09:13:44 PM
Quote from: DTComposer on September 28, 2022, 08:23:10 PM
For what it's worth, the next two entries on the tourism list (and the last two provided in the source list) are:
Monterey - #26 tourism, #124 metro population, 98 difference
Naples - #27 tourism, #141 metro population, 114 difference
Those could be considered outliers like Flagstaff, right?
Heh. When your dataset is mostly outliers, your assertion about causation is weakened.
Mostly outliers? I see the vast majority of the numbers in the Difference column are single digit or low double digit numbers.
There are some datapoints that fit your assumption, at most. And the only one where population is correlating with position, IMHO, is the third capital of the world - NYC. It is super-hyped, and is a big enough destination, sure. #6 worldwide destination ( 5 or 7 by different metrics - and I thought it would be higher).
DC is as capital, it is also home of Smithsonian, regardless of population. Those two factors are enough to attract many visitors, business and tourists.
Miami, Honolulu and Vegas are high in the list as gateways and strip, not because of population.
Chicago, Dallas, Houston, and Atlanta all punch well below their rank. I wonder how many of those tourists are actually visiting families or friends to begin with.
So there is some correlation, but looks like that is fairly weak.
Quote from: kirbykart on September 27, 2022, 09:27:41 AM
Quote from: Dirt Roads on September 26, 2022, 09:26:57 PM
Quote from: skluth on September 26, 2022, 06:28:09 PM
Los Angeles County has more people (10,014,009) than all but ten states. It's barely smaller than #10 Michigan (10,050,811) and will probably pass Michigan in population soon if it hasn't already.
Quote from: kirbykart on September 26, 2022, 07:22:08 PM
Another (albeit slightly less) surprising fact from this post is that Michigan is in the top 10 population-wise. I would imagine it in top 20 but not top 10.
Not sure why that is surprising, as Michigan has been in the Top Ten since the 1880 U.S. Census. The population loss of Detroit was significant, but overall population declines in two other traditional Top Ten states (Massachusetts and New Jersey) dropped them out completely. Michigan is still hanging around.
It's surprising because very few people would have ever figured Michigan in the top 10. At any point. I would have figured Michigan to be like #18.
I was honestly surprised it wasn't higher so it balances out. I had not expected both Georgia and North Carolina to be higher.
Quote from: kalvado on September 29, 2022, 02:16:19 PM
There are some datapoints that fit your assumption, at most. And the only one where population is correlating with position, IMHO, is the third capital of the world - NYC. It is super-hyped, and is a big enough destination, sure. #6 worldwide destination ( 5 or 7 by different metrics - and I thought it would be higher).
DC is as capital, it is also home of Smithsonian, regardless of population. Those two factors are enough to attract many visitors, business and tourists.
Miami, Honolulu and Vegas are high in the list as gateways and strip, not because of population.
Chicago, Dallas, Houston, and Atlanta all punch well below their rank. I wonder how many of those tourists are actually visiting families or friends to begin with.
So there is some correlation, but looks like that is fairly weak.
So basically what you're saying is something like this:
Quote from: interstatefan990 on September 27, 2022, 09:25:36 PM
Maybe this rule just disintegrates the further down a population list you go?
Quote from: interstatefan990 on September 29, 2022, 02:40:22 PM
Quote from: kalvado on September 29, 2022, 02:16:19 PM
There are some datapoints that fit your assumption, at most. And the only one where population is correlating with position, IMHO, is the third capital of the world - NYC. It is super-hyped, and is a big enough destination, sure. #6 worldwide destination ( 5 or 7 by different metrics - and I thought it would be higher).
DC is as capital, it is also home of Smithsonian, regardless of population. Those two factors are enough to attract many visitors, business and tourists.
Miami, Honolulu and Vegas are high in the list as gateways and strip, not because of population.
Chicago, Dallas, Houston, and Atlanta all punch well below their rank. I wonder how many of those tourists are actually visiting families or friends to begin with.
So there is some correlation, but looks like that is fairly weak.
So basically what you're saying is something like this:
Quote from: interstatefan990 on September 27, 2022, 09:25:36 PM
Maybe this rule just disintegrates the further down a population list you go?
No, I am saying that population is a contributing factor with some - but not much - weight in tourism numbers. I, for one, never thought about going to Cleveland, Buffalo or Phoenix because of their population. Having friends in Cleveland and seeing Niagara Falls or heading over to Grand Canyon were certainly more important factors. And yes, I am more likely to have friends in larger cities - but that is not the most important statistical factor.
Quote from: kirbykart on September 27, 2022, 09:27:41 AM
Quote from: Dirt Roads on September 26, 2022, 09:26:57 PM
Quote from: kirbykart on September 26, 2022, 07:22:08 PM
Another (albeit slightly less) surprising fact from this post is that Michigan is in the top 10 population-wise. I would imagine it in top 20 but not top 10.
Not sure why that is surprising, as Michigan has been in the Top Ten since the 1880 U.S. Census. The population loss of Detroit was significant, but overall population declines in two other traditional Top Ten states (Massachusetts and New Jersey) dropped them out completely. Michigan is still hanging around.
It's surprising because very few people would have ever figured Michigan in the top 10. At any point. I would have figured Michigan to be like #18.
I'm more surprised that Ohio has still not been passed by Georgia and North Carolina. I guess having three large metro areas really helps.
The thing that kind of gets me is the population of Missouri is only slightly more than Wisconsin even though they have 2 large metro areas that are both bigger than the largest in Wisconsin. Yes I know they both spill into neighboring states but still.
Quote from: dvferyance on September 29, 2022, 08:08:20 PM
The thing that kind of gets me is the population of Missouri is only slightly more than Wisconsin even though they have 2 large metro areas that are both bigger than the largest in Wisconsin. Yes I know they both spill into neighboring states but still.
Then again, there are two metros from
other states (Twin Cities and Chicagoland) that spill into Wisconsin, too.
Quote from: webny99 on September 29, 2022, 09:18:51 PM
Quote from: dvferyance on September 29, 2022, 08:08:20 PM
The thing that kind of gets me is the population of Missouri is only slightly more than Wisconsin even though they have 2 large metro areas that are both bigger than the largest in Wisconsin. Yes I know they both spill into neighboring states but still.
Then again, there are two metros from other states (Twin Cities and Chicagoland) that spill into Wisconsin, too.
The parts of KC and STL in the other states is a lot more significant, though. The Twin Cities has two towns of importance in WI (Hudson/River Falls). Kenosha is much more significant for Chicago but it's still a drop in the bucket compared to the main body.
Quote from: TheHighwayMan394 on September 29, 2022, 10:18:53 PM
Quote from: webny99 on September 29, 2022, 09:18:51 PM
Quote from: dvferyance on September 29, 2022, 08:08:20 PM
The thing that kind of gets me is the population of Missouri is only slightly more than Wisconsin even though they have 2 large metro areas that are both bigger than the largest in Wisconsin. Yes I know they both spill into neighboring states but still.
Then again, there are two metros from other states (Twin Cities and Chicagoland) that spill into Wisconsin, too.
The parts of KC and STL in the other states is a lot more significant, though. The Twin Cities has two towns of importance in WI (Hudson/River Falls). Kenosha is much more significant for Chicago but it's still a drop in the bucket compared to the main body.
That's fair. The parts of KC and STL in other states wouldn't directly factor in to the WI-MO comparison, but they do have a deflating effect on MO's population relative to if the entire metro was in-state.
Missouri also has fewer small/mid-sized cities and is more sparsely populated in general, especially compared to southern WI.
Quote from: webny99 on September 29, 2022, 11:24:18 PM
Quote from: TheHighwayMan394 on September 29, 2022, 10:18:53 PM
Quote from: webny99 on September 29, 2022, 09:18:51 PM
Quote from: dvferyance on September 29, 2022, 08:08:20 PM
The thing that kind of gets me is the population of Missouri is only slightly more than Wisconsin even though they have 2 large metro areas that are both bigger than the largest in Wisconsin. Yes I know they both spill into neighboring states but still.
Then again, there are two metros from other states (Twin Cities and Chicagoland) that spill into Wisconsin, too.
The parts of KC and STL in the other states is a lot more significant, though. The Twin Cities has two towns of importance in WI (Hudson/River Falls). Kenosha is much more significant for Chicago but it's still a drop in the bucket compared to the main body.
That's fair. The parts of KC and STL in other states wouldn't directly factor in to the WI-MO comparison, but they do have a deflating effect on MO's population relative to if the entire metro was in-state.
Missouri also has fewer small/mid-sized cities and is more sparsely populated in general, especially compared to southern WI.
Yep. The southeastern quarter of WI is quite densely populated compared to most areas in the Midwest.
Quote from: thspfc on September 30, 2022, 10:34:33 AM
Quote from: webny99 on September 29, 2022, 11:24:18 PM
Quote from: TheHighwayMan394 on September 29, 2022, 10:18:53 PM
Quote from: webny99 on September 29, 2022, 09:18:51 PM
Quote from: dvferyance on September 29, 2022, 08:08:20 PM
The thing that kind of gets me is the population of Missouri is only slightly more than Wisconsin even though they have 2 large metro areas that are both bigger than the largest in Wisconsin. Yes I know they both spill into neighboring states but still.
Then again, there are two metros from other states (Twin Cities and Chicagoland) that spill into Wisconsin, too.
The parts of KC and STL in the other states is a lot more significant, though. The Twin Cities has two towns of importance in WI (Hudson/River Falls). Kenosha is much more significant for Chicago but it's still a drop in the bucket compared to the main body.
That's fair. The parts of KC and STL in other states wouldn't directly factor in to the WI-MO comparison, but they do have a deflating effect on MO's population relative to if the entire metro was in-state.
Missouri also has fewer small/mid-sized cities and is more sparsely populated in general, especially compared to southern WI.
Yep. The southeastern quarter of WI is quite densely populated compared to most areas in the Midwest.
Also, Missouri doesn't have anything comparable to Madison and the Fox Valley communities.
Quote from: SkyPesos on September 27, 2022, 08:44:00 AM
Quote from: interstatefan990 on September 26, 2022, 11:25:07 PM
Quote from: webny99 on September 25, 2022, 11:04:00 PM
I agree with your sentiment but I think what you're saying is that NY needs another large city. Buffalo, Rochester, Syracuse, and Albany are all pretty clearly mid-sized cities/metro areas IMO.
Depends on what you consider a "medium sized" city. For me, any city below 350-400K is midsized, but interpretations vary.
St Louis, Cincinnati and Pittsburgh are "mid-sized" while El Paso, Mesa AZ and Aurora CO are "large" then?
I know this is kind of off topic I know St Louis is completely surrounded by cities but why doesn't Cincinnati simply annex all the unincorporated areas of Hamilton County? That could boost their population by another 150,000-200,000.
Quote from: dvferyance on October 06, 2022, 08:49:38 PM
Quote from: SkyPesos on September 27, 2022, 08:44:00 AM
Quote from: interstatefan990 on September 26, 2022, 11:25:07 PM
Quote from: webny99 on September 25, 2022, 11:04:00 PM
I agree with your sentiment but I think what you're saying is that NY needs another large city. Buffalo, Rochester, Syracuse, and Albany are all pretty clearly mid-sized cities/metro areas IMO.
Depends on what you consider a "medium sized" city. For me, any city below 350-400K is midsized, but interpretations vary.
St Louis, Cincinnati and Pittsburgh are "mid-sized" while El Paso, Mesa AZ and Aurora CO are "large" then?
I know this is kind of off topic I know St Louis is completely surrounded by cities but why doesn't Cincinnati simply annex all the unincorporated areas of Hamilton County? That could boost their population by another 150,000-200,000.
Would the added tax base offset the need to provide services to all of that area? If the population density is low enough, you spend more money running water and sewer lines out to the new places than you can recover in taxes (this is a problem Oklahoma City has had in annexing vast swaths of rural Oklahoma County).
When the Triangle and the Triad do eventually merge, I propose they call it what rural Tar Heels will love and more liberal ones will hate.
______?
This is my last post for a while on the population topic, I promise:
I am struck by how similar Arkansas and Iowa are demographically and geographically. Both states have a capital city that's the largest city in the state and geographically centered, a large adjacent suburb to the capital city (WDM, NLR), border the Mississippi River to the west, are of similar land area and population (Iowa is a tick larger in both), have agriculture as a huge industry, and are built mostly of small towns outside the top 15 or so cities.
I do expect that Arkansas' Delta population drain will reach an equilibrium (how low can you go?) and when that happens, the state's population growth will begin to match the rest of the nation.
Quote from: Road Hog on October 07, 2022, 12:03:37 AM
When the Triangle and the Triad do eventually merge, I propose they call it what rural Tar Heels will love and more liberal ones will hate.
______?
Tobacco Road?
Quote from: Scott5114 on October 06, 2022, 09:02:15 PM
Quote from: dvferyance on October 06, 2022, 08:49:38 PM
Quote from: SkyPesos on September 27, 2022, 08:44:00 AM
Quote from: interstatefan990 on September 26, 2022, 11:25:07 PM
Quote from: webny99 on September 25, 2022, 11:04:00 PM
I agree with your sentiment but I think what you're saying is that NY needs another large city. Buffalo, Rochester, Syracuse, and Albany are all pretty clearly mid-sized cities/metro areas IMO.
Depends on what you consider a "medium sized" city. For me, any city below 350-400K is midsized, but interpretations vary.
St Louis, Cincinnati and Pittsburgh are "mid-sized" while El Paso, Mesa AZ and Aurora CO are "large" then?
I know this is kind of off topic I know St Louis is completely surrounded by cities but why doesn't Cincinnati simply annex all the unincorporated areas of Hamilton County? That could boost their population by another 150,000-200,000.
Would the added tax base offset the need to provide services to all of that area? If the population density is low enough, you spend more money running water and sewer lines out to the new places than you can recover in taxes (this is a problem Oklahoma City has had in annexing vast swaths of rural Oklahoma County).
That's why cities usually prefer to annex regions that include commercial and industrial properties, as those normally contribute more in taxes than they receive in services. Residential properties do the opposite, they use more in services than they contribute in taxes.
Quote from: Dirt Roads on October 07, 2022, 10:30:56 AM
Quote from: Road Hog on October 07, 2022, 12:03:37 AM
When the Triangle and the Triad do eventually merge, I propose they call it what rural Tar Heels will love and more liberal ones will hate.
______?
Tobacco Road?
Piedmont Crescent, and keep the name once that area merges with the Charlotte area
Quote from: ran4sh on October 07, 2022, 11:21:29 AM
Quote from: Dirt Roads on October 07, 2022, 10:30:56 AM
Quote from: Road Hog on October 07, 2022, 12:03:37 AM
When the Triangle and the Triad do eventually merge, I propose they call it what rural Tar Heels will love and more liberal ones will hate.
______?
Tobacco Road?
Piedmont Crescent, and keep the name once that area merges with the Charlotte area
Call that monstrosity the Carolina Triplex.
Quote from: Scott5114 on October 06, 2022, 09:02:15 PM
Quote from: dvferyance on October 06, 2022, 08:49:38 PM
Quote from: SkyPesos on September 27, 2022, 08:44:00 AM
Quote from: interstatefan990 on September 26, 2022, 11:25:07 PM
Quote from: webny99 on September 25, 2022, 11:04:00 PM
I agree with your sentiment but I think what you're saying is that NY needs another large city. Buffalo, Rochester, Syracuse, and Albany are all pretty clearly mid-sized cities/metro areas IMO.
Depends on what you consider a "medium sized" city. For me, any city below 350-400K is midsized, but interpretations vary.
St Louis, Cincinnati and Pittsburgh are "mid-sized" while El Paso, Mesa AZ and Aurora CO are "large" then?
I know this is kind of off topic I know St Louis is completely surrounded by cities but why doesn't Cincinnati simply annex all the unincorporated areas of Hamilton County? That could boost their population by another 150,000-200,000.
Would the added tax base offset the need to provide services to all of that area? If the population density is low enough, you spend more money running water and sewer lines out to the new places than you can recover in taxes (this is a problem Oklahoma City has had in annexing vast swaths of rural Oklahoma County).
Much of unincorporated Hamilton County is pretty urban. The only exceptions would be far west to northwest. There are many Ohio cites that have lost population that are adjacent to unincorporated developed areas like Dayton. Youngstown, Akron and Canton.
Quote from: Road Hog on October 07, 2022, 12:03:37 AM
When the Triangle and the Triad do eventually merge, I propose they call it what rural Tar Heels will love and more liberal ones will hate.
______?
The Six Pack! :D
In each of the maps below, the population size is approximately the same between blue and yellow.
(https://i.imgur.com/AxLuPts.png)
(https://i.imgur.com/rOU1gJ4.png)
The city of Corpus Christi, Texas has more people than those of several sports cities like Buffalo, Cincinnati, Cleveland, Green Bay, Orlando, Pittsburgh, St. Louis, and Salt Lake City.
My home state of Texas has nearly a dozen cities which are greater than a quarter-million (counting a couple of suburbs). Texas has more than seventy cities larger than the largest city of West Virginia.
Pasadena, Texas is larger than Pasadena, California; yet not very many people seem to be aware of the larger of the two.
^The Corpus Christi one is the craziest. I would have figured it was about the size of Buffalo, maybe a bit smaller.
What shocks me is, the second-most populated state capital is Austin.
Also, many people don't know that Columbus, OH is more populated than Cleveland and Cincinnati.
Quote from: jgb191 on October 11, 2022, 10:59:25 PM
The city of Corpus Christi, Texas has more people than those of several sports cities like Buffalo, Cincinnati, Cleveland, Green Bay, Orlando, Pittsburgh, St. Louis, and Salt Lake City.
My home state of Texas has nearly a dozen cities which are greater than a quarter-million (counting a couple of suburbs). Texas has more than seventy cities larger than the largest city of West Virginia.
Pasadena, Texas is larger than Pasadena, California; yet not very many people seem to be aware of the larger of the two.
While looking at the core cities only is pretty popular; MSAs are telling a different story. My understanding this partially due to the way cities and suburbs, and their annexation, work.
Buffalo MSA - #49, 1.16 million, principal city is 278k, 24%
Corpus Christie MSA - #132, 423 k, principal city is 326k, 77%
Plus, the sports teams actually care about media markets rather than MSAs. Because media markets is how the league divides the country into each team's territory, plus allows rural people to contribute to the popularity of their team by watching on TV.
And this is what I was told when I tried to edit the Wikipedia article about sports teams and their MSAs and media markets.
But there is a good video on Youtube by Geography King that explains that some western metro areas have grown large enough to support their own team while some Rust Belt areas have shrunk and they only have teams because they were able to get them in the past.
I'm not sure how up to date this still is--I first heard it about 20 years ago: 50% of the US population lives within 50 miles of a seacoast.
Quote from: ran4sh on October 12, 2022, 11:12:05 AM
Plus, the sports teams actually care about media markets rather than MSAs. Because media markets is how the league divides the country into each team's territory, plus allows rural people to contribute to the popularity of their team by watching on TV.
And this is what I was told when I tried to edit the Wikipedia article about sports teams and their MSAs and media markets.
But there is a good video on Youtube by Geography King that explains that some western metro areas have grown large enough to support their own team while some Rust Belt areas have shrunk and they only have teams because they were able to get them in the past.
The largest MSAs that don't have major sports teams are all adjacent to or very near larger MSAs that do:
#12 Riverside is adjacent to #2 LA
#23 Orlando is adjacent to #18 Tampa
#28 Austin is triangulated by #4 Dallas, #5 Houston and #24 San Antonio
The existing franchise owners in these areas would block any new or relocated franchises this close to theirs.
The largest MSA that really doesn't have any major teams nearby is #37 Virginia Beach.
If you suddenly gave every fan in every sport a very specific amnesia where they forget what teams they're a fan of (but not what sports), and then re-allocated the existing franchises based only on market size and research, I don't think very many, if any of the older cities would lose franchises.
You might get an NBA team in Columbus instead of Cleveland. Jacksonville's NFL team might end up in Portland, Virginia Beach, or a 2nd team in Chicago.
^
Orlando has the Magic (NBA); but yeah you could count Orlando/Tampa-St. Petersburg as Central Florida, Jacksonville is North Florida, and Miami/Ft. Lauderdale as South Florida -- three separate areas
Also If the Greater LA area must have two teams, move one of them to Riverside, Anaheim, or Long Beach. But I see no reason why any single MSA/CSA should have a plural number of teams; keep it singular.
How far is Norfolk to Washington in terms of straight-line distance? In a straight line, Austin to San Antonio is 74 miles; Austin to Dallas-Ft. Worth is over 180 miles, Austin to Houston is almost 150 miles.
It doesn't seem like Washington to Baltimore to Philadelphia is spaced all that far out between each. The Texas cities look to be much more spaced apart.
Quote from: kalvado on October 12, 2022, 10:13:32 AM
While looking at the core cities only is pretty popular; MSAs are telling a different story. My understanding this partially due to the way cities and suburbs, and their annexation, work.
Buffalo MSA - #49, 1.16 million, principal city is 278k, 24%
Corpus Christie MSA - #132, 423 k, principal city is 326k, 77%
I can try something else here: The Brownsville and McAllen MSAs (which might as well be one larger CSA put together) is comparable to Buffalo-Niagra area. The Rio Grande Valley area is almost 1.4 million could be closing in on 2 million by the end of this decade.
Quote from: NWI_Irish96 on October 12, 2022, 01:33:38 PM
Quote from: ran4sh on October 12, 2022, 11:12:05 AM
Plus, the sports teams actually care about media markets rather than MSAs. Because media markets is how the league divides the country into each team's territory, plus allows rural people to contribute to the popularity of their team by watching on TV.
And this is what I was told when I tried to edit the Wikipedia article about sports teams and their MSAs and media markets.
But there is a good video on Youtube by Geography King that explains that some western metro areas have grown large enough to support their own team while some Rust Belt areas have shrunk and they only have teams because they were able to get them in the past.
The largest MSAs that don't have major sports teams are all adjacent to or very near larger MSAs that do:
#12 Riverside is adjacent to #2 LA
#23 Orlando is adjacent to #18 Tampa
#28 Austin is triangulated by #4 Dallas, #5 Houston and #24 San Antonio
The existing franchise owners in these areas would block any new or relocated franchises this close to theirs.
The largest MSA that really doesn't have any major teams nearby is #37 Virginia Beach.
If you suddenly gave every fan in every sport a very specific amnesia where they forget what teams they're a fan of (but not what sports), and then re-allocated the existing franchises based only on market size and research, I don't think very many, if any of the older cities would lose franchises.
You might get an NBA team in Columbus instead of Cleveland. Jacksonville's NFL team might end up in Portland, Virginia Beach, or a 2nd team in Chicago.
Bring back the Syracuse Nationals.
Quote from: NWI_Irish96 on October 12, 2022, 01:33:38 PM
#12 Riverside is adjacent to #2 LA
#23 Orlando is adjacent to #18 Tampa
#28 Austin is triangulated by #4 Dallas, #5 Houston and #24 San Antonio
Orlando and Austin both have MLS teams, so they're covered. Austin-San Antonio is generally considered a single combined market for sports leagues, hence why the former's MLS bid meant the latter's was doomed.
Quote from: NWI_Irish96 on October 12, 2022, 01:33:38 PM
You might get an NBA team in Columbus instead of Cleveland. Jacksonville's NFL team might end up in Portland, Virginia Beach, or a 2nd team in Chicago.
Portland is unlikely to get an NFL team, as there is no suitable stadium or a plan to build one.
Quote from: Takumi on October 07, 2022, 01:03:36 PM
Quote from: ran4sh on October 07, 2022, 11:21:29 AM
Quote from: Dirt Roads on October 07, 2022, 10:30:56 AM
Quote from: Road Hog on October 07, 2022, 12:03:37 AM
When the Triangle and the Triad do eventually merge, I propose they call it what rural Tar Heels will love and more liberal ones will hate.
______?
Tobacco Road?
Piedmont Crescent, and keep the name once that area merges with the Charlotte area
Call that monstrosity the Carolina Triplex.
The Tri-Oval
New York is the only state besides Hawaii where the majority of its population lives on an island (50.8%).
Legally speaking, NYC + Long Island is a peninsula and is treated as such by the courts and the government, but also legally speaking, pizza is a vegetable and cannabis has no accepted medical purpose, so that doesn't mean very much.
I can confirm that it's accurate, but how does it defy conventional wisdom?
Quote from: index on October 02, 2023, 07:16:38 PM
New York is the only state besides Hawaii where the majority of its population lives on an island (50.8%).
Legally speaking, NYC + Long Island is a peninsula and is treated as such by the courts and the government, but also legally speaking, pizza is a vegetable and cannabis has no accepted medical purpose, so that doesn't mean very much.
I don't think
an island works. The four counties on Long Island only total about 8 million. You have to add in other islands to go over 50%.
Quote from: index on October 02, 2023, 07:16:38 PM
pizza is a vegetable
That's a pretty awesome legality.
Quote from: vdeane on October 02, 2023, 09:08:10 PM
Quote from: index on October 02, 2023, 07:16:38 PM
pizza is a vegetable
That's a pretty awesome legality.
Wouldn't be surprised to find-out it's related to the fact that, here in the US, tomatoes are legally considered vegetables (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nix_v._Hedden), mainly for tax/customs purposes.
Quote from: Rothman on October 02, 2023, 08:48:53 PM
Quote from: index on October 02, 2023, 07:16:38 PM
New York is the only state besides Hawaii where the majority of its population lives on an island (50.8%).
Legally speaking, NYC + Long Island is a peninsula and is treated as such by the courts and the government, but also legally speaking, pizza is a vegetable and cannabis has no accepted medical purpose, so that doesn't mean very much.
I don't think an island works. The four counties on Long Island only total about 8 million. You have to add in other islands to go over 50%.
I really don't know anyone who lives on two islands.
Quote from: CtrlAltDel on October 02, 2023, 10:10:15 PM
Quote from: Rothman on October 02, 2023, 08:48:53 PM
Quote from: index on October 02, 2023, 07:16:38 PM
New York is the only state besides Hawaii where the majority of its population lives on an island (50.8%).
Legally speaking, NYC + Long Island is a peninsula and is treated as such by the courts and the government, but also legally speaking, pizza is a vegetable and cannabis has no accepted medical purpose, so that doesn't mean very much.
I don't think an island works. The four counties on Long Island only total about 8 million. You have to add in other islands to go over 50%.
I really don't know anyone who lives on two islands.
Would owning property on multiple islands count?
Quote from: 1 on October 02, 2023, 07:20:07 PM
I can confirm that it's accurate, but how does it defy conventional wisdom?
With Hawaii you could say that Oahu bucks the trend given it was not the traditional population center of the Hawaiian kingdom. American development post-Kingdom period centered around Pearl Harbor and Honolulu Harbor.
Quote from: Rothman on October 03, 2023, 07:41:30 AM
Quote from: CtrlAltDel on October 02, 2023, 10:10:15 PM
Quote from: Rothman on October 02, 2023, 08:48:53 PM
Quote from: index on October 02, 2023, 07:16:38 PM
New York is the only state besides Hawaii where the majority of its population lives on an island (50.8%).
Legally speaking, NYC + Long Island is a peninsula and is treated as such by the courts and the government, but also legally speaking, pizza is a vegetable and cannabis has no accepted medical purpose, so that doesn't mean very much.
I don't think an island works. The four counties on Long Island only total about 8 million. You have to add in other islands to go over 50%.
I really don't know anyone who lives on two islands.
Would owning property on multiple islands count?
Commute from one island to another should count.
Quote from: freebrickproductions on October 02, 2023, 09:32:17 PM
Wouldn't be surprised to find-out it's related to the fact that, here in the US, tomatoes are legally considered vegetables (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nix_v._Hedden), mainly for tax/customs purposes.
Tomatoes
should be considered a vegetable. That's how we use them. It shouldn't only be stems and leaves and roots that are considered vegetables.
Or do you also think zucchini, cucumbers, peapods, okra, and jalapeños should be legally considered fruits?
Quote from: kphoger on October 03, 2023, 11:29:58 AM
Quote from: freebrickproductions on October 02, 2023, 09:32:17 PM
Wouldn't be surprised to find-out it's related to the fact that, here in the US, tomatoes are legally considered vegetables (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nix_v._Hedden), mainly for tax/customs purposes.
Tomatoes should be considered a vegetable. That's how we use them. It shouldn't only be stems and leaves and roots that are considered vegetables.
Or do you also think zucchini, cucumbers, peapods, okra, and jalapeños should be legally considered fruits?
We can take this even further.
(https://i.pinimg.com/736x/57/3d/dd/573ddda878b20f5d8262c074cfba62e7.jpg)
Carrot cake is a vegetable and zucchini bread is a fruit.
Quote from: Rothman on October 02, 2023, 08:48:53 PM
Quote from: index on October 02, 2023, 07:16:38 PM
New York is the only state besides Hawaii where the majority of its population lives on an island (50.8%).
Legally speaking, NYC + Long Island is a peninsula and is treated as such by the courts and the government, but also legally speaking, pizza is a vegetable and cannabis has no accepted medical purpose, so that doesn't mean very much.
I don't think an island works. The four counties on Long Island only total about 8 million. You have to add in other islands to go over 50%.
By "an island" I meant like, there are 50.8% of the people who live on
any island, rather than one specific island. 50.8% of the people can say "I live on an island" is how I thought about it in my head when writing that post.
Quote from: 1 on October 02, 2023, 07:20:07 PM
I can confirm that it's accurate, but how does it defy conventional wisdom?
It's not really something that people tend to consider/not really a fact that stands out. New York and Hawaii being in the same category for that in spite of being starkly different feels a bit weird.
When you think about it, yeah, it makes perfect sense and there's nothing odd about it, in the same way how eating being stuffing dead stuff into a hole on your face isn't weird. It's normal but it's kind of weird when you think about it a bit.
Quote from: index on October 02, 2023, 07:16:38 PM
New York is the only state besides Hawaii ...
You must admit, however, that claiming "the majority of people in Hawaii live on an island" is a bit misleading. It makes it sound like there is a minority in Hawaii who
don't live on an island.
Quote from: index on October 03, 2023, 10:57:03 PM
Quote from: Rothman on October 02, 2023, 08:48:53 PM
Quote from: index on October 02, 2023, 07:16:38 PM
New York is the only state besides Hawaii where the majority of its population lives on an island (50.8%).
Legally speaking, NYC + Long Island is a peninsula and is treated as such by the courts and the government, but also legally speaking, pizza is a vegetable and cannabis has no accepted medical purpose, so that doesn't mean very much.
I don't think an island works. The four counties on Long Island only total about 8 million. You have to add in other islands to go over 50%.
By "an island" I meant like, there are 50.8% of the people who live on any island, rather than one specific island. 50.8% of the people can say "I live on an island" is how I thought about it in my head when writing that post.
I understood it as you intended it.
Quote from: kphoger on October 04, 2023, 10:26:47 AM
Quote from: index on October 02, 2023, 07:16:38 PM
New York is the only state besides Hawaii ...
You must admit, however, that claiming "the majority of people in Hawaii live on an island" is a bit misleading. It makes it sound like there is a minority in Hawaii who don't live on an island.
Less sensational way of putting it is - states with most population living on the island are: HI - 100%, obviously; if PR ever becomes a state it will also be 100%. Strangely next one is not Rhode Island but NY with 50%+ living on an island (primarily NYC area - long island, manhattan, staten island; maybe I am missing some? Grand Island with it's 0.1% of NY population may be added for luls)
UPD: Actually, those listed above account for 49.2% of NYS population as far as I can tell. Is there another big island within NYC? It's another 200k people.
Gotta think Grand Island by Buffalo accounts for at least a chunk of it.
Also, what's state #3? Probably Florida?
Quote from: JayhawkCO on October 04, 2023, 01:29:58 PM
Gotta think Grand Island by Buffalo accounts for at least a chunk of it.
Also, what's state #3? Probably Florida?
Depends on how "island" is defined (Cape Cod and the Delmarva are, technically).
And if you're basing Florida on the Keys, Rhode Island is probably comparable percentage-wise.
Quote from: webny99 on October 04, 2023, 03:57:23 PM
Quote from: JayhawkCO on October 04, 2023, 01:29:58 PM
Gotta think Grand Island by Buffalo accounts for at least a chunk of it.
Also, what's state #3? Probably Florida?
Depends on how "island" is defined (Cape Cod and the Delmarva are, technically).
And if you're basing Florida on the Keys, Rhode Island is probably comparable percentage-wise.
For Florida, I was also thinking about Miami Beach.
Quote from: JayhawkCO on October 04, 2023, 04:41:44 PM
Quote from: webny99 on October 04, 2023, 03:57:23 PM
Quote from: JayhawkCO on October 04, 2023, 01:29:58 PM
Gotta think Grand Island by Buffalo accounts for at least a chunk of it.
Also, what's state #3? Probably Florida?
Depends on how "island" is defined (Cape Cod and the Delmarva are, technically).
And if you're basing Florida on the Keys, Rhode Island is probably comparable percentage-wise.
For Florida, I was also thinking about Miami Beach.
Plus all the other barrier islands - anything outside the Intracoastal Waterway.
Quote from: kalvado on October 04, 2023, 11:04:25 AM
Quote from: kphoger on October 04, 2023, 10:26:47 AM
Quote from: index on October 02, 2023, 07:16:38 PM
New York is the only state besides Hawaii ...
You must admit, however, that claiming "the majority of people in Hawaii live on an island" is a bit misleading. It makes it sound like there is a minority in Hawaii who don't live on an island.
Less sensational way of putting it is - states with most population living on the island are: HI - 100%, obviously; if PR ever becomes a state it will also be 100%. Strangely next one is not Rhode Island but NY with 50%+ living on an island (primarily NYC area - long island, manhattan, staten island; maybe I am missing some? Grand Island with it's 0.1% of NY population may be added for luls)
UPD: Actually, those listed above account for 49.2% of NYS population as far as I can tell. Is there another big island within NYC? It's another 200k people.
When I added up the four Long Island counties (Suffolk, Nassau, Queens, and Kings) plus New York and Richmond using Google's population figures, I got 50.07% of the population. Sure, those counties technically comprise more than Long Island, Manhattan Island, and Staten Island... but only other, smaller, islands. There's also City Island, but it doesn't add a lot, and it's not needed. Maybe. Not sure what the population of mainland Manhattan is.
Quote from: vdeane on October 04, 2023, 09:37:39 PM
Quote from: kalvado on October 04, 2023, 11:04:25 AM
Quote from: kphoger on October 04, 2023, 10:26:47 AM
Quote from: index on October 02, 2023, 07:16:38 PM
New York is the only state besides Hawaii ...
You must admit, however, that claiming "the majority of people in Hawaii live on an island" is a bit misleading. It makes it sound like there is a minority in Hawaii who don't live on an island.
Less sensational way of putting it is - states with most population living on the island are: HI - 100%, obviously; if PR ever becomes a state it will also be 100%. Strangely next one is not Rhode Island but NY with 50%+ living on an island (primarily NYC area - long island, manhattan, staten island; maybe I am missing some? Grand Island with it's 0.1% of NY population may be added for luls)
UPD: Actually, those listed above account for 49.2% of NYS population as far as I can tell. Is there another big island within NYC? It's another 200k people.
When I added up the four Long Island counties (Suffolk, Nassau, Queens, and Kings) plus New York and Richmond using Google's population figures, I got 50.07% of the population. Sure, those counties technically comprise more than Long Island, Manhattan Island, and Staten Island... but only other, smaller, islands. There's also City Island, but it doesn't add a lot, and it's not needed. Maybe. Not sure what the population of mainland Manhattan is.
The City Island population is roughly just under half of the Marble Hill population. Adding islands such as Van Schaick Island would probably negate Marble Hill.
I actually ran some numbers with a mapping/GIS tool after seeing a few posts asking which states came in what place, and this is what I came up with for states with the most people on islands by percent:
This includes true islands, areas of land which are functionally islands (connected to land but only accessible by bridge over water or via ferry), and peninsulas which were formerly islands and are still referred to and treated as such.
- Hawaii: 100%
- New York: 50.8%
- Alaska: 9.67%
- Rhode Island: 6.55%
- Florida: 4.37%
- South Carolina: 3.99%
- Washington: 2.79%
- Maine: 2.59%
- New Jersey: 1.37%
- Vermont: 1.15%
- Louisiana: 0.99% (This one was a bit tough since the landscape there kind of blurs what is and isn't an island together)
- North Carolina: 0.72%
- Georgia: 0.63%
- Massachusetts: 0.59%
- Maryland: 0.51%
- Alabama: 0.37%
- Texas: 0.34%
- Michigan: 0.22%
- California: 0.20%
- Wisconsin: 0.15%
- West Virginia: 0.138%
- New Hampshire: 0.137%
- Oregon: 0.10%
- Tennessee: 0.08%
- Virginia: 0.058%
- Delaware: 0.056%
- Minnesota: 0.04%
- Connecticut: 0.038%
- Ohio: 0.02%
- Illinois: 0.019%
- Arkansas: 0.016%
- Iowa: 0.0157%
- Pennsylvania: 0.011%
- Mississippi: 0.010%
- Arizona: 0.008%
- Indiana: 0.007%
- Missouri: 0.00003%
And the rest have no population on islands. This probably isn't super accurate, I did a lot of eyeballing and rough estimates as well.
Seahaven Island: 100%
Quote from: JayhawkCO on October 04, 2023, 01:29:58 PM
Gotta think Grand Island by Buffalo accounts for at least a chunk of it.
Also, what's state #3? Probably Florida?
Probably not as much as you think. Almost 20 million people for the state, and 20,000 for Grand Island. So a fifth of a percent of NY's island population is on Grand Island.
Quote from: kirbykart on October 05, 2023, 08:33:13 AM
Quote from: JayhawkCO on October 04, 2023, 01:29:58 PM
Gotta think Grand Island by Buffalo accounts for at least a chunk of it.
Also, what's state #3? Probably Florida?
Probably not as much as you think. Almost 20 million people for the state, and 20,000 for Grand Island. So a fifth of a percent of NY's island population is on Grand Island.
Yet the NB Grand Island bridge carries upwards of 40,000 VPD on peak days. Double that for SB, and the Grand Island bridges carry up to four times as many
vehicles in a single day as the entire island has people! That just seems crazy to me, even knowing how much of that traffic is just passing through.
Quote from: webny99 on October 05, 2023, 08:43:23 AM
Quote from: kirbykart on October 05, 2023, 08:33:13 AM
Quote from: JayhawkCO on October 04, 2023, 01:29:58 PM
Gotta think Grand Island by Buffalo accounts for at least a chunk of it.
Also, what's state #3? Probably Florida?
Probably not as much as you think. Almost 20 million people for the state, and 20,000 for Grand Island. So a fifth of a percent of NY's island population is on Grand Island.
Yet the NB Grand Island bridge carries upwards of 40,000 VPD on peak days. Double that for SB, and the Grand Island bridges carry up to four times as many vehicles in a single day as the entire island has people! That just seems crazy to me, even knowing how much of that traffic is just passing through.
I'd imagine this is true for thousands of smaller communities that have Interstate access across the country.
Quote from: kirbykart on October 05, 2023, 08:33:13 AM
Quote from: JayhawkCO on October 04, 2023, 01:29:58 PM
Gotta think Grand Island by Buffalo accounts for at least a chunk of it.
Also, what's state #3? Probably Florida?
Probably not as much as you think. Almost 20 million people for the state, and 20,000 for Grand Island. So a fifth of a percent of NY's island population is on Grand Island.
Well, I didn't think much, but is it the most populated island in NY outside of the NYC area? That's what I was trying to come up with.
Quote from: vdeane on October 04, 2023, 09:37:39 PM
Quote from: kalvado on October 04, 2023, 11:04:25 AM
Quote from: kphoger on October 04, 2023, 10:26:47 AM
Quote from: index on October 02, 2023, 07:16:38 PM
New York is the only state besides Hawaii ...
You must admit, however, that claiming "the majority of people in Hawaii live on an island" is a bit misleading. It makes it sound like there is a minority in Hawaii who don't live on an island.
Less sensational way of putting it is - states with most population living on the island are: HI - 100%, obviously; if PR ever becomes a state it will also be 100%. Strangely next one is not Rhode Island but NY with 50%+ living on an island (primarily NYC area - long island, manhattan, staten island; maybe I am missing some? Grand Island with it's 0.1% of NY population may be added for luls)
UPD: Actually, those listed above account for 49.2% of NYS population as far as I can tell. Is there another big island within NYC? It's another 200k people.
When I added up the four Long Island counties (Suffolk, Nassau, Queens, and Kings) plus New York and Richmond using Google's population figures, I got 50.07% of the population. Sure, those counties technically comprise more than Long Island, Manhattan Island, and Staten Island... but only other, smaller, islands. There's also City Island, but it doesn't add a lot, and it's not needed. Maybe. Not sure what the population of mainland Manhattan is.
I still get 49.84% after checking all the numbers . It's probably safe to leave it at "about a half" after all. Looks like LI population is growng faster than NYS in general, so later numbers would favor higher percentage... and I am too lazy to go and dig out by year data
Quote from: Rothman on October 05, 2023, 09:40:27 AM
Quote from: webny99 on October 05, 2023, 08:43:23 AM
Quote from: kirbykart on October 05, 2023, 08:33:13 AM
Quote from: JayhawkCO on October 04, 2023, 01:29:58 PM
Gotta think Grand Island by Buffalo accounts for at least a chunk of it.
Also, what's state #3? Probably Florida?
Probably not as much as you think. Almost 20 million people for the state, and 20,000 for Grand Island. So a fifth of a percent of NY's island population is on Grand Island.
Yet the NB Grand Island bridge carries upwards of 40,000 VPD on peak days. Double that for SB, and the Grand Island bridges carry up to four times as many vehicles in a single day as the entire island has people! That just seems crazy to me, even knowing how much of that traffic is just passing through.
I'd imagine this is true for thousands of smaller communities that have Interstate access across the country.
Perhaps you're referring to Limon? :)
Quote from: JayhawkCO on October 05, 2023, 10:14:17 AM
Quote from: kirbykart on October 05, 2023, 08:33:13 AM
Quote from: JayhawkCO on October 04, 2023, 01:29:58 PM
Gotta think Grand Island by Buffalo accounts for at least a chunk of it.
Also, what's state #3? Probably Florida?
Probably not as much as you think. Almost 20 million people for the state, and 20,000 for Grand Island. So a fifth of a percent of NY's island population is on Grand Island.
Well, I didn't think much, but is it the most populated island in NY outside of the NYC area? That's what I was trying to come up with.
It probably is. Until you want to call the slice of Waterford between Mohawk and canal an island.
So looks like the Wikipedia article on US Islands also has a population section, with 2010 numbers. Here goes.
| State | Island Population | Total Population | Percentage |
| HI | 1360301 | 1360301 | 100.00% |
| NY | 9571129 | 19378102 | 49.39% |
| AK | 63847 | 710231 | 8.99% |
| RI | 67821 | 1052567 | 6.44% |
| WA | 167922 | 6724549 | 2.50% |
| ME | 30895 | 1328361 | 2.33% |
| SC | 52020 | 4625364 | 1.12% |
| NJ | 57457 | 8791894 | 0.65% |
| VT | 3651 | 625741 | 0.58% |
| DE | 4001 | 897934 | 0.45% |
| MA | 24451 | 6547629 | 0.37% |
| MD | 20813 | 5773552 | 0.36% |
| FL | 53540 | 18801310 | 0.28% |
| NC | 26508 | 9535483 | 0.28% |
| TX | 60991 | 25145561 | 0.24% |
| CA | 77512 | 37253956 | 0.21% |
| MI | 13337 | 9883640 | 0.13% |
| AL | 1371 | 4779736 | 0.03% |
| OR | 1078 | 3831074 | 0.03% |
| LA | 1005 | 4533372 | 0.02% |
| WI | 845 | 5686986 | 0.01% |
Florida increased by more than 10× from 2010 to 2020? And South Carolina more than tripled.
Quote from: index on October 04, 2023, 11:05:50 PM
I actually ran some numbers with a mapping/GIS tool after seeing a few posts asking which states came in what place, and this is what I came up with for states with the most people on islands by percent:
This includes true islands, areas of land which are functionally islands (connected to land but only accessible by bridge over water or via ferry), and peninsulas which were formerly islands and are still referred to and treated as such.
By your second definition here, anywhere in Delaware south of C & D Canal would be on an island (only accessible by bridges over water or via ferry). That would include Odessa, Smyrna, Dover and all the beach areas. The Delaware percentage would be significant. Also anywhere in Maryland south of that canal and east of Chesapeake Bay, and all of Virginia east of Chesapeake Bay. In other words, all of Delmarva Peninsula south of that canal.
Earlier, someone mentioned Cape Cod which I believe is in the same category due to a canal.
I assume that canals don't count, since they are manmade? The people posting numbers aren't saying that.
Interestingly, Ísland is an island, but only by complete coincidence.
Quote from: 1 on October 05, 2023, 10:58:21 AM
Florida increased by more than 10× from 2010 to 2020? And South Carolina more than tripled.
The only islands included in the list for Florida are Amelia, Key Largo, Marco, Pine, and Sanibel. I'm sure it's probably missing some. (Key West obviously comes to mind.)
Quote from: 1 on October 05, 2023, 10:58:21 AM
Florida increased by more than 10× from 2010 to 2020? And South Carolina more than tripled.
For SC, looks like population of Folly island /Folly beach is reported inconsistently. There are plenty of houses there, not sure if people live there permanently, though; and how a hurricane would change that.
Quote from: Rothman on October 05, 2023, 09:40:27 AM
Quote from: webny99 on October 05, 2023, 08:43:23 AM
Quote from: kirbykart on October 05, 2023, 08:33:13 AM
...
Almost 20 million people for the state, and 20,000 for Grand Island. So a fifth of a percent of NY's island population is on Grand Island.
Yet the NB Grand Island bridge carries upwards of 40,000 VPD on peak days. Double that for SB, and the Grand Island bridges carry up to four times as many vehicles in a single day as the entire island has people! That just seems crazy to me, even knowing how much of that traffic is just passing through.
I'd imagine this is true for thousands of smaller communities that have Interstate access across the country.
In terms of an interstate passing through a small town/city, sure. But those are usually approachable from many different directions. The fact that it's an island with only two ways off and 3-4x the island population in vehicles is also relying on those two bridges just hits different. I'm sure comparable examples can be found, but not many with an island that size.
Quote from: webny99 on October 05, 2023, 11:29:58 AM
Quote from: Rothman on October 05, 2023, 09:40:27 AM
Quote from: webny99 on October 05, 2023, 08:43:23 AM
Quote from: kirbykart on October 05, 2023, 08:33:13 AM
...
Almost 20 million people for the state, and 20,000 for Grand Island. So a fifth of a percent of NY's island population is on Grand Island.
Yet the NB Grand Island bridge carries upwards of 40,000 VPD on peak days. Double that for SB, and the Grand Island bridges carry up to four times as many vehicles in a single day as the entire island has people! That just seems crazy to me, even knowing how much of that traffic is just passing through.
I'd imagine this is true for thousands of smaller communities that have Interstate access across the country.
In terms of an interstate passing through a small town/city, sure. But those are usually approachable from many different directions. The fact that it's an island with only two ways off and 3-4x the island population in vehicles is also relying on those two bridges just hits different. I'm sure comparable examples can be found, but not many with an island that size.
Florida keys?
I expected I-45 to fit the bill, but its AADT is only a little bit above Galveston's population size.
Quote from: kalvado on October 05, 2023, 11:45:40 AM
Quote from: webny99 on October 05, 2023, 11:29:58 AM
In terms of an interstate passing through a small town/city, sure. But those are usually approachable from many different directions. The fact that it's an island with only two ways off and 3-4x the island population in vehicles is also relying on those two bridges just hits different. I'm sure comparable examples can be found, but not many with an island that size.
Florida keys?
Quote from: kphoger on October 05, 2023, 11:50:13 AM
I expected I-45 to fit the bill, but its AADT is only a little bit above Galveston's population size.
The key (pun not intended, but I'll take it) is the through traffic component. It's hard to find one more significant than Buffalo<>Niagara Falls, which also happens to include by extension the entire I-90 corridor in NY<>southern Ontario.
Key Largo is about half the size of Grand Island in both population and area, and its population is exceeded (roughly doubled or tripled) by the combined Overseas Hwy and Card Sound Rd traffic volume. But many of the other Keys are too much smaller to be comparable, and by the time you get to Key West, there's no through traffic component.
Quote from: kalvado on October 05, 2023, 10:16:56 AM
Quote from: vdeane on October 04, 2023, 09:37:39 PM
Quote from: kalvado on October 04, 2023, 11:04:25 AM
Quote from: kphoger on October 04, 2023, 10:26:47 AM
Quote from: index on October 02, 2023, 07:16:38 PM
New York is the only state besides Hawaii ...
You must admit, however, that claiming "the majority of people in Hawaii live on an island" is a bit misleading. It makes it sound like there is a minority in Hawaii who don't live on an island.
Less sensational way of putting it is - states with most population living on the island are: HI - 100%, obviously; if PR ever becomes a state it will also be 100%. Strangely next one is not Rhode Island but NY with 50%+ living on an island (primarily NYC area - long island, manhattan, staten island; maybe I am missing some? Grand Island with it's 0.1% of NY population may be added for luls)
UPD: Actually, those listed above account for 49.2% of NYS population as far as I can tell. Is there another big island within NYC? It's another 200k people.
When I added up the four Long Island counties (Suffolk, Nassau, Queens, and Kings) plus New York and Richmond using Google's population figures, I got 50.07% of the population. Sure, those counties technically comprise more than Long Island, Manhattan Island, and Staten Island... but only other, smaller, islands. There's also City Island, but it doesn't add a lot, and it's not needed. Maybe. Not sure what the population of mainland Manhattan is.
I still get 49.84% after checking all the numbers . It's probably safe to leave it at "about a half" after all. Looks like LI population is growng faster than NYS in general, so later numbers would favor higher percentage... and I am too lazy to go and dig out by year data
I was just running queries in Google along the lines of "suffolk county ny population" and using whatever number was spit out. Most used 2021 data (the exceptions were Queens, Richmond, and New York Counties with 2020 data and Marble Hill with 2010 data). Using the four LI counties plus Manhattan (minus Marble Hill) and Staten Island got me to 50.03%.
Place | Population (millions) |
Suffolk County | 1.526 |
Nassau County | 1.391 |
Queens County | 2.271 |
Kings County | 2.641 |
Richmond County | 0.476 |
New York County | 1.629 |
Marble Hill | -0.009* |
New York State Total | 19.84 |
*Entered as a negative number due to subtracting this from the population of New York County.
Quote from: JayhawkCO on October 05, 2023, 10:53:17 AM
So looks like the Wikipedia article on US Islands also has a population section, with 2010 numbers. Here goes.
| State | Island Population | Total Population | Percentage |
| HI | 1360301 | 1360301 | 100.00% |
| NY | 9571129 | 19378102 | 49.39% |
| AK | 63847 | 710231 | 8.99% |
| RI | 67821 | 1052567 | 6.44% |
| WA | 167922 | 6724549 | 2.50% |
| ME | 30895 | 1328361 | 2.33% |
| SC | 52020 | 4625364 | 1.12% |
| NJ | 57457 | 8791894 | 0.65% |
| VT | 3651 | 625741 | 0.58% |
| DE | 4001 | 897934 | 0.45% |
| MA | 24451 | 6547629 | 0.37% |
| MD | 20813 | 5773552 | 0.36% |
| FL | 53540 | 18801310 | 0.28% |
| NC | 26508 | 9535483 | 0.28% |
| TX | 60991 | 25145561 | 0.24% |
| CA | 77512 | 37253956 | 0.21% |
| MI | 13337 | 9883640 | 0.13% |
| AL | 1371 | 4779736 | 0.03% |
| OR | 1078 | 3831074 | 0.03% |
| LA | 1005 | 4533372 | 0.02% |
| WI | 845 | 5686986 | 0.01% |
Huh. I have no idea why I wasn't able to find that. I did look. I did all that for nothing lol :clap:
Those numbers (not just the two states I mentioned) are so different from the GIS tool, plus they're 13 years outdated, that I wouldn't trust them.
Quote from: JayhawkCO on October 05, 2023, 11:06:42 AM
Quote from: 1 on October 05, 2023, 10:58:21 AM
Florida increased by more than 10× from 2010 to 2020? And South Carolina more than tripled.
The only islands included in the list for Florida are Amelia, Key Largo, Marco, Pine, and Sanibel. I'm sure it's probably missing some. (Key West obviously comes to mind.)
Miami Beach, Palm Beach, various other "Beach" names.
Quote from: index on October 04, 2023, 11:05:50 PM
I actually ran some numbers with a mapping/GIS tool after seeing a few posts asking which states came in what place, and this is what I came up with for states with the most people on islands by percent:
This includes true islands, areas of land which are functionally islands (connected to land but only accessible by bridge over water or via ferry), and peninsulas which were formerly islands and are still referred to and treated as such.
- Hawaii: 100%
- New York: 50.8%
- Alaska: 9.67%
- Rhode Island: 6.55%
- Florida: 4.37%
- South Carolina: 3.99%
- Washington: 2.79%
- Maine: 2.59%
- New Jersey: 1.37%
- Vermont: 1.15%
- Louisiana: 0.99% (This one was a bit tough since the landscape there kind of blurs what is and isn't an island together)
- North Carolina: 0.72%
- Georgia: 0.63%
- Massachusetts: 0.59%
- Maryland: 0.51%
- Alabama: 0.37%
- Texas: 0.34%
- Michigan: 0.22%
- California: 0.20%
- Wisconsin: 0.15%
- West Virginia: 0.138%
- New Hampshire: 0.137%
- Oregon: 0.10%
- Tennessee: 0.08%
- Virginia: 0.058%
- Delaware: 0.056%
- Minnesota: 0.04%
- Connecticut: 0.038%
- Ohio: 0.02%
- Illinois: 0.019%
- Arkansas: 0.016%
- Iowa: 0.0157%
- Pennsylvania: 0.011%
- Mississippi: 0.010%
- Arizona: 0.008%
- Indiana: 0.007%
- Missouri: 0.00003%
And the rest have no population on islands. This probably isn't super accurate, I did a lot of eyeballing and rough estimates as well.
For some reason, South Dakota and Dells Island (sometimes called Quarry Island for the quartzite quarry there) didn't make the list:
https://mapcarta.com/35120852 (https://mapcarta.com/35120852)
If at least 70 people live on the island, for South Dakota's current population, that would be about 0.01%. Looking a Google Earth, probably no... :-(
Quote from: kphoger on October 04, 2023, 10:26:47 AM
Quote from: index on October 02, 2023, 07:16:38 PM
New York is the only state besides Hawaii ...
You must admit, however, that claiming "the majority of people in Hawaii live on an island" is a bit misleading. It makes it sound like there is a minority in Hawaii who don't live on an island.
Here's a population oddity for you—1% of Clark County, Nevada's population is Native Hawaiian or Pacific Islander. Which is odd, because what would cause a bunch of people from a tropical island to end up in the desert?
Apparently this started because a casino magnate had a vacation home in Hawaii. One of his properties was struggling, so, in the 1970s, he got the idea to market it toward Hawaiians. (The original idea was to market it to Californians, but it didn't take, thus why the property was struggling.) Since Hawaii is itself a vacation destination, he reasoned people in Hawaii probably didn't have an obvious place to go on vacation themselves. So he started offering them all-inclusive vacation packages, running shuttle flights between Honolulu and Las Vegas, and replacing the buffet with Hawaiian food.
It worked so well that it ended up going beyond a marketing scheme. Cultural ties started forming between the two states—after all, Nevada and Hawaii are both well known for being in the tourism industry, so they had more in common than it seemed at first. So when housing prices in Hawaii started rising, Hawaiians started moving to Las Vegas, to the point that now it's sometimes called the "ninth island of Hawaii".
So if you wanted to indulge in a bit of creative license, I suppose you could say that there are a minority of Hawaiians who don't live on an island after all.
(source) (https://www.8newsnow.com/vegas-history/ninth-island-the-story-behind-hawaiians-affinity-for-las-vegas/)
Quote from: kphoger on October 04, 2023, 10:26:47 AM
You must admit, however, that claiming "the majority of people in Hawaii live on an island" is a bit misleading. It makes it sound like there is a minority in Hawaii who don't live on an island.
Quote from: Scott5114 on October 06, 2023, 03:26:46 AM
So when housing prices in Hawaii started rising, Hawaiians started moving to Las Vegas ... So if you wanted to indulge in a bit of creative license, I suppose you could say that there are a minority of Hawaiians who don't live on an island after all.
Note how I carefully worded my post to avoid that exact sort of response. :bigass:
(https://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/dubious_islands.png)
Relevant XKCD from yesterday. I remember as an early mapgeek discovering the Chicago Canal and realizing that sorta made the eastern chunk of the country an island.
Quote from: DTComposer on October 07, 2023, 11:42:15 AM
Relevant XKCD from yesterday. I remember as an early mapgeek discovering the Chicago Canal and realizing that sorta made the eastern chunk of the country an island.
While Great Loop is certainly something I am almost envious about... You almost can spit from one "island" to the other in some places.
I would have thought Washington State would be higher on the list because a number of Seattle suburbs are on islands in Puget Sound.
Oh the Urbanity cited that Los Angeles is the most dense urban area in the USA. I know I would have Guessed Chicago and New York as my first picks within the top 3 but that is not the case. 2nd and 3rd place for most dense urban areas are San Jose and San Francisco as seen here.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_States_urban_areas (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_States_urban_areas)https://www.census.gov/newsroom/press-releases/2022/urban-rural-populations.html (https://www.census.gov/newsroom/press-releases/2022/urban-rural-populations.html)https://www.census.gov/programs-surveys/geography/guidance/geo-areas/urban-rural.html (https://www.census.gov/programs-surveys/geography/guidance/geo-areas/urban-rural.html)https://www.census.gov/programs-surveys/geography/guidance/geo-areas/urban-rural/2020-ua-facts.html
Here are the sources they cited for the video.
Bangkok has a metropolitan population of 14.6 million inhabitants.
It is over 100 times greater than the largest city in Thailand that is not in the Bangkok metro area (Hat Yai), making it the world's most dominant city in one country (a primate city).
A number of countries have relatively recently crossed the 100 million mark: the Philippines, Vietnam, Egypt, Ethiopia & the Democratic Republic of the Congo. In 1989 there were 10 countries over 100M. Today, there are 16.
In 1989, Pakistan had a population of 107M. Today it has 241M. In 1989 Indonesia had a population of 175M, today it has 279M.
While not necessarily defying conventional wisdom, the world has changed quite rapidly over the past couple of decades.
On the other hand, the birth rate is declining quicker than previous estimates. Even countries like India, Bangladesh and Indonesia have dropped to replacement level of 2.1 children per woman. Iran and Turkey are below that. Some estimates put China at 0.8 now, it has declined much faster than anticipated.
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/d7/Total_Fertility_Rate_Map_by_Country.svg/1280px-Total_Fertility_Rate_Map_by_Country.svg.png)
Quote from: newyooper on October 05, 2023, 05:31:19 PM
Quote from: index on October 04, 2023, 11:05:50 PM
I actually ran some numbers with a mapping/GIS tool after seeing a few posts asking which states came in what place, and this is what I came up with for states with the most people on islands by percent:
This includes true islands, areas of land which are functionally islands (connected to land but only accessible by bridge over water or via ferry), and peninsulas which were formerly islands and are still referred to and treated as such.
- Hawaii: 100%
- New York: 50.8%
- Alaska: 9.67%
- Rhode Island: 6.55%
- Florida: 4.37%
- South Carolina: 3.99%
- Washington: 2.79%
- Maine: 2.59%
- New Jersey: 1.37%
- Vermont: 1.15%
- Louisiana: 0.99% (This one was a bit tough since the landscape there kind of blurs what is and isn't an island together)
- North Carolina: 0.72%
- Georgia: 0.63%
- Massachusetts: 0.59%
- Maryland: 0.51%
- Alabama: 0.37%
- Texas: 0.34%
- Michigan: 0.22%
- California: 0.20%
- Wisconsin: 0.15%
- West Virginia: 0.138%
- New Hampshire: 0.137%
- Oregon: 0.10%
- Tennessee: 0.08%
- Virginia: 0.058%
- Delaware: 0.056%
- Minnesota: 0.04%
- Connecticut: 0.038%
- Ohio: 0.02%
- Illinois: 0.019%
- Arkansas: 0.016%
- Iowa: 0.0157%
- Pennsylvania: 0.011%
- Mississippi: 0.010%
- Arizona: 0.008%
- Indiana: 0.007%
- Missouri: 0.00003%
And the rest have no population on islands. This probably isn't super accurate, I did a lot of eyeballing and rough estimates as well.
For some reason, South Dakota and Dells Island (sometimes called Quarry Island for the quartzite quarry there) didn't make the list:
https://mapcarta.com/35120852 (https://mapcarta.com/35120852)
If at least 70 people live on the island, for South Dakota's current population, that would be about 0.01%. Looking a Google Earth, probably no... :(
Good catch. Per South Dakota's population data and census blocks, 17 people live on the island.
Another thread about this topic already exists - one that I created: https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=33202.0
Quote from: KCRoadFan on October 08, 2023, 01:21:20 AM
Another thread about this topic already exists - one that I created: https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=33202.0
That doesn't seem like the same thing. That one appears to be about if individual cities are bigger or smaller than an individual forum user expected. This one is more general.\
Plus, if you
really want to play that game... this thread is older.
Quote from: Road Hog on October 07, 2023, 02:34:37 PM
I would have thought Washington State would be higher on the list because a number of Seattle suburbs are on islands in Puget Sound.
Really only Mercer and Bainbridge (both of which are island-cities). Vashon and Whidbey are mostly rural, and the other islands are tiny.
Quote from: GaryV on October 03, 2023, 12:20:20 PM
Carrot cake is a vegetable and zucchini bread is a fruit.
What? No. They are mostly flour with some sugar and oil, just like other cakes and sweet breads.
Quote from: kkt on October 09, 2023, 01:11:44 AM
What? No. They are mostly flour with some sugar and oil, just like other cakes and sweet breads.
Sweetbreads are a meat.
Quote from: JayhawkCO on October 12, 2023, 01:39:05 PM
Quote from: kkt on October 09, 2023, 01:11:44 AM
What? No. They are mostly flour with some sugar and oil, just like other cakes and sweet breads.
Sweetbreads are a meat.
Questionable meat. :D
Quote from: Rothman on October 12, 2023, 01:56:49 PM
Quote from: JayhawkCO on October 12, 2023, 01:39:05 PM
Quote from: kkt on October 09, 2023, 01:11:44 AM
What? No. They are mostly flour with some sugar and oil, just like other cakes and sweet breads.
Sweetbreads are a meat.
Questionable meat. :D
Delicious, questionable meat.
Quote from: JayhawkCO on October 12, 2023, 02:45:44 PM
Quote from: Rothman on October 12, 2023, 01:56:49 PM
Quote from: JayhawkCO on October 12, 2023, 01:39:05 PM
Quote from: kkt on October 09, 2023, 01:11:44 AM
What? No. They are mostly flour with some sugar and oil, just like other cakes and sweet breads.
Sweetbreads are a meat.
Questionable meat. :D
Delicious, questionable meat.
TIL...
You can grow sourdough starter on different flours, resulting in different flavors. Starter grown on amaranth flour smells like ham...
Quote from: kalvado on October 13, 2023, 02:24:36 PM
Quote from: JayhawkCO on October 12, 2023, 02:45:44 PM
Quote from: Rothman on October 12, 2023, 01:56:49 PM
Quote from: JayhawkCO on October 12, 2023, 01:39:05 PM
Quote from: kkt on October 09, 2023, 01:11:44 AM
What? No. They are mostly flour with some sugar and oil, just like other cakes and sweet breads.
Sweetbreads are a meat.
Questionable meat. :D
Delicious, questionable meat.
TIL...
You can grow sourdough starter on different flours, resulting in different flavors. Starter grown on amaranth flour smells like ham...
Mmmmmm...piggy bread...
Quote from: kalvado on October 13, 2023, 02:24:36 PM
Quote from: JayhawkCO on October 12, 2023, 02:45:44 PM
Quote from: Rothman on October 12, 2023, 01:56:49 PM
Quote from: JayhawkCO on October 12, 2023, 01:39:05 PM
Quote from: kkt on October 09, 2023, 01:11:44 AM
What? No. They are mostly flour with some sugar and oil, just like other cakes and sweet breads.
Sweetbreads are a meat.
Questionable meat. :D
Delicious, questionable meat.
TIL...
You can grow sourdough starter on different flours, resulting in different flavors. Starter grown on amaranth flour smells like ham...
Wow, I had no idea the flour could make such a big difference.
Here is an interesting list on cities by Geography King.
Jefferson Parish, LA (441K) is larger than Orleans Parish (384K), though Orleans is the nucleus of the New Orleans metro area. This happened after Orleans Parish was hit by Hurricane Katrina.
Granted, I haven't been to any of these three states, but...
Does it surprise anyone else that Florida has a higher population density than both Ohio and Pennsylvania? By quite a margin, too: Florida is more than one-third more dense than Pennsylvania.
(It also surprises me that no US state's population density falls between those two: according to Wikipedia, there is no US state with a population density between 300 and 400 per sq mi.)
Quote from: kphoger on January 04, 2024, 02:45:53 PM
Granted, I haven't been to any of these three states, but...
Does it surprise anyone else that Florida has a higher population density than both Ohio and Pennsylvania? By quite a margin, too: Florida is more than one-third more dense than Pennsylvania.
(It also surprises me that no US state's population density falls between those two: according to Wikipedia, there is no US state with a population density between 300 and 400 per sq mi.)
No it doesn't surprise me from a Pennsylvania perspective. If you drew a line from Pittsburgh to Philadelphia, and then continued that line to go from Philadelphia to Scranton, and then visited 99% of the land north and west of that line (population very sparse in many places), it wouldn't surprise anyone.
I think what makes it surprising is that so much of Florida is uninhabited swamp land. Most of mainland Monroe County is entirely devoid of people.
I guess central Florida and the Atlantic coast must be really, really dense to balance it out.
Quote from: kphoger on January 04, 2024, 02:45:53 PM
(It also surprises me that no US state's population density falls between those two: according to Wikipedia, there is no US state with a population density between 300 and 400 per sq mi.)
Here's the breakdown:
8 states = greater than 400 per sq mi
0 states = between 300 and 400 per sq mi
7 states = between 200 and 300 per sq mi
11 states = between 100 and 200 per sq mi
24 states = less than 100 per sq mi
Quote from: Scott5114 on January 04, 2024, 03:01:24 PM
I think what makes it surprising is that so much of Florida is uninhabited swamp land. Most of mainland Monroe County is entirely devoid of people.
I guess central Florida and the Atlantic coast must be really, really dense to balance it out.
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/c9/Satellite_Sees_Holiday_Lights_Brighten_Cities_-_Florida_%2816035611911%29.jpg)
Public domain: NASA (https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Satellite_Sees_Holiday_Lights_Brighten_Cities_-_Florida_%2816035611911%29.jpg)
Continuity here will be completely lost since I'm responding to a post in a different thread -- but I'm following the rules or conventions, such as they are.
In the geographic thread, it was mentioned that Helsinki has more people than Iceland.
I've been to Iceland, when you go to the east of Reykjavik which is on the west coast, there are not many people.
Quote from: tmoore952 on February 04, 2024, 12:16:09 PM
Continuity here will be completely lost since I'm responding to a post in a different thread -- but I'm following the rules or conventions, such as they are.
In the geographic thread, it was mentioned that Helsinki has more people than Iceland.
I've been to Iceland, when you go to the east of Reykjavik which is on the west coast, there are not many people.
Doesn't seem to be much of an oddity.
Quote from: Rothman on February 04, 2024, 02:51:31 PM
Quote from: tmoore952 on February 04, 2024, 12:16:09 PM
Continuity here will be completely lost since I'm responding to a post in a different thread -- but I'm following the rules or conventions, such as they are.
In the geographic thread, it was mentioned that Helsinki has more people than Iceland.
I've been to Iceland, when you go to the east of Reykjavik which is on the west coast, there are not many people.
Doesn't seem to be much of an oddity.
To be clear -- it is not my oddity -- it was Poiponen13's in the geographic thread.
It only wound up being discussed here because Poiponen13 got yelled at for putting a population stat in the geographic thread.
If you want the original poster of that to see it, you may need to post your comment there.
Quote from: Rothman on February 04, 2024, 02:51:31 PM
Quote from: tmoore952 on February 04, 2024, 12:16:09 PM
Continuity here will be completely lost since I'm responding to a post in a different thread -- but I'm following the rules or conventions, such as they are.
In the geographic thread, it was mentioned that Helsinki has more people than Iceland.
I've been to Iceland, when you go to the east of Reykjavik which is on the west coast, there are not many people.
Doesn't seem to be much of an oddity.
It's not - there are quite a few places in the world that have a population higher than Iceland. Six counties in Michigan alone have a higher population than Iceland, and the 7th is pretty close.
But when has logic been a P13 strongpoint?
Quote from: golden eagle on December 23, 2023, 12:22:57 AM
Jefferson Parish, LA (441K) is larger than Orleans Parish (384K), though Orleans is the nucleus of the New Orleans metro area. This happened after Orleans Parish was hit by Hurricane Katrina.
Jefferson parish had always been less than 10% less populous than Orleans, about 30K difference before Katrina / Rita.
I would agree that from the commercial and tourist POV, that New Orleans is the hub.
While New Orleans does not expand outside of Orleans Parish, Metairie is an unincorporated area in Jefferson Parish that is functionally part of NOLA itself. Metairie alone has around 150K. I guess, my point is it may be counter intuitive, but looking at Jefferson Parish as suburban really doesn't fit.
Quote from: bing101 on April 18, 2024, 12:41:16 PM
Always a fun video when my employer is a central focus of the topic.
Fun fact: one department at my office is the one that processes municipal boundary changes. Every year, they ask all municipalities whether or not their boundaries have changed. If they have, the municipalities send us maps and legal references, and we update everything. In most states, they use our geographical units (tracts/blocks) to define their changes legally, which makes things much easier for us. If not, it takes a bit more work to get everything right. Once it's all done, the next decennial census and the next annual population estimate will automatically include the new area.
https://www.wxyz.com/news/voices/this-is-truly-a-renaissance-detroit-sees-growth-in-population-for-first-time-since-1950s
https://apnews.com/article/detroit-us-census-population-1f1f2ef32a46d4310e95dfc5e9c5a2c4
Detroit population rises for the first time in 6 decades. Yes there have been talks that Detroit would be a ghost town at some point but then again this is preliminary information.
The bottom was somewhere and people were only going to stay away so long with cheap properties available. Now parts of the city are becoming popular for gentrification.
Quote from: NWI_Irish96 on April 18, 2024, 01:02:04 PMQuote from: bing101 on April 18, 2024, 12:41:16 PM
Always a fun video when my employer is a central focus of the topic.
Fun fact: one department at my office is the one that processes municipal boundary changes. Every year, they ask all municipalities whether or not their boundaries have changed. If they have, the municipalities send us maps and legal references, and we update everything. In most states, they use our geographical units (tracts/blocks) to define their changes legally, which makes things much easier for us. If not, it takes a bit more work to get everything right. Once it's all done, the next decennial census and the next annual population estimate will automatically include the new area.
The more you know
The fastest-growing city in the nation is ...
https://www.celina-tx.gov/CivicAlerts.aspx?AID=742
Sounds awesome until you realize there aren't much more than a McDonald's. a Sonic and a Taco Bell for 43,000 people (likely 50K by now).
Quote from: Road Hog on May 18, 2024, 02:03:19 AMThe fastest-growing city in the nation is ...
https://www.celina-tx.gov/CivicAlerts.aspx?AID=742
Sounds awesome until you realize there aren't much more than a McDonald's. a Sonic and a Taco Bell for 43,000 people (likely 50K by now).
Texas is notorious for rapidly-growing cities. I've read about Plano gaining 54K in one decade.
Quote from: epzik8 on May 21, 2024, 06:59:28 PMQuote from: Road Hog on May 18, 2024, 02:03:19 AMThe fastest-growing city in the nation is ...
https://www.celina-tx.gov/CivicAlerts.aspx?AID=742
Sounds awesome until you realize there aren't much more than a McDonald's. a Sonic and a Taco Bell for 43,000 people (likely 50K by now).
Texas is notorious for rapidly-growing cities. I've read about Plano gaining 54K in one decade.
Highlands Ranch, CO, still not incorporated, went from about 10,000 people in 1990 to 70,000 in 2000, and about 100,000 in 2010.
Ft. Worth has once again pulled even with Austin, both cities are almost at 980,000. It's anybody's guess as to which one of these cities will be the fourth in Texas -- and tenth in the country -- to reach the million mark.
Quote from: jgb191 on May 22, 2024, 12:01:35 AMFt. Worth has once again pulled even with Austin, both cities are almost at 980,000. It's anybody's guess as to which one of these cities will be the fourth in Texas -- and tenth in the country -- to reach the million mark.
My money is on Cowtown because of the wide-open and flat space not already occupied by suburbs.
https://history.howstuffworks.com/world-history/most-densely-populated-city.htm
https://housegrail.com/most-densely-populated-cities-in-the-world/
https://populationeducation.org/crowded-metropolises-the-top-10-most-densely-populated-cities-in-the-world/
https://www.worldatlas.com/articles/the-world-s-most-densely-populated-cities.html
https://www.worldatlas.com/articles/the-world-s-most-dense-cities.html
https://247wallst.com/special-report/2019/07/08/the-50-most-densely-populated-cities-in-the-world/
Here's one to look at one would think Chinese cities would be on this list for most dense cities in the world. Apparently Manila in this figure is listed as the world's densest populated city not just in the Philippines but the world in some figures but others say Mumbai India given when their countries census was released.
More people live in tiny Singapore than, Norway, New Zealand, Denmark, Finland, Norway, Ireland and Lebanon, among many others.
Quote from: RG470 on January 20, 2025, 09:38:16 PMMore people live in tiny Singapore than, Norway, New Zealand, Denmark, Finland, Norway, Ireland and Lebanon, among many others.
You said Norway twice.
Fun fact: exactly twice as many people live in Norway and Norway combined than live in just Norway.
Quote from: Road Hog on January 21, 2025, 05:44:07 PMYou said Norway twice.
The second one in the list the town in Maine.
Quote from: Road Hog on January 21, 2025, 05:44:07 PMQuote from: RG470 on January 20, 2025, 09:38:16 PMMore people live in tiny Singapore than, Norway, New Zealand, Denmark, Finland, Norway, Ireland and Lebanon, among many others.
You said Norway twice.
Pizza, pizza.
Quote from: freebrickproductions on January 21, 2025, 08:44:01 PMQuote from: Max Rockatansky on January 21, 2025, 05:46:44 PMQuote from: Road Hog on January 21, 2025, 05:44:07 PMQuote from: RG470 on January 20, 2025, 09:38:16 PMMore people live in tiny Singapore than, Norway, New Zealand, Denmark, Finland, Alanland, Ireland and Lebanon, among many others.
You said Norway twice.
Now the list is correct.
Ain't Alanland's goat population also greater than Singapore's on every other Tuesday in alternating months if/when certain metric targets are reached depending on the phase of the moon and what day of the week it is?
Fixed.
The correct answer I was looking for should have been,"I like Norway."
Quote from: kphoger on January 22, 2025, 09:08:50 AMQuote from: freebrickproductions on January 21, 2025, 08:44:01 PMAin't Alanland's population also greater than Singapore's on every other Tuesday in alternating months if/when certain metric targets are reached depending on the phase of the moon and what day of the week it is?
Alanland doesn't use metric targets. In Alanland, targets are measured by length according to the diameter at the widest point. Length is measured in light-rice cookings (lRc), which is defined as the distance light travels in the time that it takes to cook rice (defined by the Grand Alan to be 14.57 minutes). As with the unit for mass, scientific notation and SI prefixes are forbidden. Care should be taken with using this unit, as it is not inversely proportional to the length of the object.
Weirdly, the targets used are still called "metric targets" despite explicitly being defined in lRc. It's believed this name is a hold-over from Alanland's unabortive attempt at metrication that didn't happen until 15 years from now.
Quote from: Road Hog on January 21, 2025, 11:27:15 PMThe correct answer I was looking for should have been,"I like Norway."
Forget Snorway (http://forgetnorway.com/).
It's not been mentioned, but the City of London is the second smallest city in the UK (by city proper population - beating Wells), and the second smallest second tier local authority (being the also-sui-generis Isles of Scilly some way southwest of Land's End) at about 30% of the size of the 3rd smallest, which is also an outlier.
It's 19 times smaller (12,156 vs 213,119) than the only other city in the Greater London region (the only English region that still exists - because it got a Mayor and an Assembly rather than was little more than a line on the map that the others were*): Westminster
It's also a top tier local authority at the same time and, again, is about 30% of the size of the next smallest (the same one as second-tier districts, only here Rutland is even more of an outlier). Currently the government, trying to finish what the last several government were seeking to do, want just one tier of local government. The recommended population is half a million - 12.5 times little Rutland, and 40 times the smaller City of London. Oh, and these mega authorities will still have to club together and form a combined authority (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Combined_authorities_and_combined_county_authorities) to get some actual power to do anything other than collect rubbish, block requests to build thing, and take money from central Government and spend it exactly how central Government wants.
*Though the City keeps its own police force, and petty criminals have learnt the hard way where the boundary is as the City Police are much more strict than the Met Police - nab a phone or do some shoplifting within the Square Mile and you will be arrested, unlike in areas covered by the Met.
Alanland nonsense needs to stop infecting threads that did at least have a decent idea at the start.
Quote from: Rothman on January 22, 2025, 08:09:54 PMAlanland nonsense needs to stop infecting threads that did at least have a decent idea at the start.
You know what, fair enough.
Quote from: Road Hog on January 21, 2025, 11:27:15 PMThe correct answer I was looking for should have been,"I like Norway."
I thought about it, but knowing the source material, thought better of mentioning it in mixed company.
Quote from: dlsterner on September 24, 2022, 05:30:13 PMMore than half of Canada's population lives south of Seattle (using a line drawn at Seattle's latitude).
Ontario's major cities like Toronto, Windsor has to be south of Seattle.
Maybe population-related, maybe not, but storm chasers showed Memphis' skyline and I was not impressed. Little Rock has at least as many skyscrapers. LR punches above its weight.
At least Memphis has a skyline. Bakersfield arguably doesn't even really have a downtown anymore. The tallest building in what was the traditional downtown area is the ten story BofA building. Much of downtown was damaged beyond repair during 1952 earthquakes.
Quote from: Road Hog on April 04, 2025, 06:45:12 PMMaybe population-related, maybe not, but storm chasers showed Memphis' skyline and I was not impressed. Little Rock has at least as many skyscrapers. LR punches above its weight.
Yeah, but does Little Rock have a
pyramid?
If you were to ask me what the second-largest MSA in California is, I would have naturally guessed the SF-Oakland MSA. But to my utter surprise, SF-Oakland MSA was just overtaken by Riverside-San Bernadino-Palm Springs area.
Columbus has overtaken Cleveland for the largest city in Ohio's history; Cleveland peaked sometime in the late 1940s at over 900K and Columbus is at 913K. Speaking of Cleveland, I read somewhere it was larger back in 1900 than it is now.
On a somewhat similar note, Denver County is not the most populous county in Colorado, which I would guess many would assume.
I feel as though nowadays that Riverside-San Bernardino is just a glorified series of Los Angeles suburbs.
Quote from: RG470 on January 20, 2025, 09:38:16 PMMore people live in tiny Singapore than, Norway, New Zealand, Denmark, Finland, Norway, Ireland and Lebanon, among many others.
Dang all of these countries are between 4 million to 7 million people if they were cities or counties they would rank between New York and Los Angeles city propers if they were cities.
Quote from: JayhawkCO on April 09, 2025, 10:45:27 AMOn a somewhat similar note, Denver County is not the most populous county in Colorado, which I would guess many would assume.
I wouldn't even venture a guess at what the most populous county in Colorado is, because Colorado county lines are profoundly stupid and don't seem to reflect any sort of geographical reality, other than perhaps where mountain ridges are sometimes.
Guadalajara is still the largest city in Jalisco. However, the Municipality of Zapopan is now larger by population than Guadalajara. Guadalajara the city and Municipality are consolidated, Zapopan isn't.
Quote from: Scott5114 on April 13, 2025, 01:07:28 AMQuote from: JayhawkCO on April 09, 2025, 10:45:27 AMOn a somewhat similar note, Denver County is not the most populous county in Colorado, which I would guess many would assume.
I wouldn't even venture a guess at what the most populous county in Colorado is, because Colorado county lines are profoundly stupid and don't seem to reflect any sort of geographical reality, other than perhaps where mountain ridges are sometimes.
Hmm. The combined City and Counties of Denver and Brookfield are the only ones that don't really follow something geographic. Adams and Arapahoe are a little weird just because they extend so far east. Can you give me an example?
Quote from: JayhawkCO on April 13, 2025, 09:43:20 AMQuote from: Scott5114 on April 13, 2025, 01:07:28 AMQuote from: JayhawkCO on April 09, 2025, 10:45:27 AMOn a somewhat similar note, Denver County is not the most populous county in Colorado, which I would guess many would assume.
I wouldn't even venture a guess at what the most populous county in Colorado is, because Colorado county lines are profoundly stupid and don't seem to reflect any sort of geographical reality, other than perhaps where mountain ridges are sometimes.
Hmm. The combined City and Counties of Denver and Brookfield are the only ones that don't really follow something geographic. Adams and Arapahoe are a little weird just because they extend so far east. Can you give me an example?
Adams and Arapahoe are perfect examples, actually—if you look at historic maps, they were created by the legislature just drawing a bunch of parallels on the map from the Front Range clear to Kansas. (The counties east of them were split off later.) And now the way the county lines fall they each have a chunk of Denver suburbs stuck to the side of a long, narrow strip of farmland.
Weld County seems like it contains too many disparate jurisdictions. Do Erie, Greeley, and Raymer really have enough in common to justify them falling under the same government? Likewise, Larimer County has a bunch of towns spilling over into Weld but also runs up into the mountains to contain Estes Park somehow. I have to imagine that the county commission meeting agendas cover such a wide range of topics as to become whiplash-inducing.
Teller County's existence was probably justified at one point due to mining interests but now it seems to function as an extension of El Paso County.
I mean, I guess it works for Colorado, and my longest stint in your state was a layover at DEN last October, so I'm far from an expert here. But from what I know about county government in other states I would be surprised if Colorado didn't run into a lot of bureaucratic and political issues that aren't experienced in other places simply because the county lines fall in awkward places that don't reflect how people actually use the land.
Quote from: Scott5114 on April 13, 2025, 07:02:57 PMWeld County seems like it contains too many disparate jurisdictions. Do Erie, Greeley, and Raymer really have enough in common to justify them falling under the same government? Likewise, Larimer County has a bunch of towns spilling over into Weld but also runs up into the mountains to contain Estes Park somehow. I have to imagine that the county commission meeting agendas cover such a wide range of topics as to become whiplash-inducing.
Most of what you're describing is just due to growth. Weld County in particular used to just be just Greeley and a lot of farmland, but as the corridor between Denver and Fort Collins has filled in, lots of cities of some size have become relevant in Weld/Larimer Counties. Look at the populations when the counties were formed. Hell, look at the populations in 1990.
Erie, in 1990, had 1,258 people, all in Weld County. Now it has 35,269 in Boulder and Weld Counties.
To expound on this a little bit, here are the populations of all cities and towns in Weld County in 1990 vs. now. Note that a good amount of cities/towns have since annexed land in another county, so I've done my best to estimate just the population that's in Weld County. Also of note, both Northglenn and Thornton technically have land area in Weld County, but it doesn't appear that anyone lives on those tracts of land.
| City | 1990 | 2020 | Growth |
| Ault | 1107 | 1887 | 70% |
| Berthoud | 0 | 261 | ∞ |
| Brighton | 0 | 365 | ∞ |
| Dacono | 2228 | 6297 | 183% |
| Eaton | 1959 | 5802 | 196% |
| Erie | 528 | 17387 | 3193% |
| Evans | 5877 | 22165 | 277% |
| Firestone | 1358 | 16381 | 1106% |
| Fort Lupton | 5159 | 7955 | 54% |
| Frederick | 988 | 14513 | 1369% |
| Garden City | 199 | 254 | 28% |
| Gilcrest | 1084 | 1029 | -5% |
| Greeley | 60536 | 108795 | 80% |
| Grover | 135 | 157 | 16% |
| Hudson | 918 | 1651 | 80% |
| Johnstown | 947 | 10382 | 996% |
| Keenesburg | 570 | 1250 | 119% |
| Kersey | 863 | 1495 | 73% |
| LaSalle | 1783 | 2359 | 32% |
| Lochbuie | 1168 | 7938 | 580% |
| Longmont | 2432 | 14832 | 510% |
| Mead | 456 | 4781 | 948% |
| Milliken | 1605 | 8386 | 422% |
| Nunn | 324 | 504 | 56% |
| Pierce | 823 | 1097 | 33% |
| Platteville | 1515 | 2955 | 95% |
| Raymer | 98 | 110 | 12% |
| Severance | 106 | 7863 | 7318% |
| Windsor | 5062 | 21810 | 331% |
| TOTAL | 99828 | 290661 | 191% |
So tl;dr, Weld County made a lot of sense when it was created (in 1861). But obviously population trends have moved a ton of its population to Greeley and the I-25 corridor.
And, it does make soooommmee sense geographically for the northeastern portion of the county as the border runs along the Pawnee National Grassland border.
Quote from: JayhawkCO on April 14, 2025, 11:27:38 AMNote that a good amount of ounties have since annexed land in another county, so I've done my best to estimate just the population that's in Weld County.
towns?
Quote from: kphoger on April 14, 2025, 11:35:19 AMQuote from: JayhawkCO on April 14, 2025, 11:27:38 AMNote that a good amount of counties have since annexed land in another county, so I've done my best to estimate just the population that's in Weld County.
towns?
Cities and towns. Corrected my typo. Trying to go too fast. Also fixed your typo. :)
The US is the 3rd most populated country in the world. If you tripled the population of the US, it would be the 3rd most populated country in the world.
Quote from: NWI_Irish96 on April 14, 2025, 11:38:17 AMThe US is the 3rd most populated country in the world. If you tripled the population of the US, it would be the 3rd most populated country in the world.
According to the 2024 estimate, you could even quadruple it.
4. 282.5 million — Indonesia
3. 340.1 million — USA, actual 2024 estimate
3. 1.360 billion — USA, quadrupled
2. 1.408 billion — China
1. 1.413 billion — India
Quote from: kphoger on April 14, 2025, 11:46:39 AMQuote from: NWI_Irish96 on April 14, 2025, 11:38:17 AMThe US is the 3rd most populated country in the world. If you tripled the population of the US, it would be the 3rd most populated country in the world.
According to the 2024 estimate, you could even quadruple it.
4. 282.5 million — Indonesia
3. 340.1 million — USA, actual 2024 estimate
3. 1.360 billion — USA, quadrupled
2. 1.408 billion — China
1. 1.413 billion — India
Probably won't be true much longer.
Which part?
Trump isn't building a wall to keep the Messkins out. He's building it to keep the Americans in.
Quote from: Road Hog on April 14, 2025, 07:37:13 PMWhich part?
Trump isn't building a wall to keep the Messkins out. He's building it to keep the Americans in.
China's population is going down. The US population is going up. Pretty soon, if you take the US population and quadruple it, it will be greater than the population of China.
It has nothing to do with Trump.
Quote from: Scott5114 on April 13, 2025, 07:02:57 PMAnd now the way the county lines fall they each have a chunk of Denver suburbs stuck to the side of a long, narrow strip of farmland.
Yeah, I can't stand that either. In my view, every county should be able to be reasonably categorized as one of the following:
- Large city (metro area)
- Small city (micro area)
- Suburban
- Exurban
- Rural
Obviously, there's going to be some mixture. But if the county as a whole doesn't reasonably and clearly fall into one of those buckets, either the lines were misdrawn or the county is just way too big.
Quote from: JayhawkCO on April 14, 2025, 11:27:38 AMNote that a good amount of cities/towns have since annexed land in another county
Yuck. Annexation should be banished from the the face of the earth.
Quote from: webny99 on April 15, 2025, 01:02:31 PMQuote from: Scott5114 on April 13, 2025, 07:02:57 PMAnd now the way the county lines fall they each have a chunk of Denver suburbs stuck to the side of a long, narrow strip of farmland.
Yeah, I can't stand that either. In my view, every county should be able to be reasonably categorized as one of the following:
- Large city (metro area)
- Small city (micro area)
- Suburban
- Exurban
- Rural
Obviously, there's going to be some mixture. But if the county as a whole doesn't reasonably and clearly fall into one of those buckets, either the lines were misdrawn or the county is just way too big.
So are you in favor of redrawing a ton of county lines? I know you're looking at this from an East Coast perspective where things don't change that dramatically in a 30 year period, but out west, the population dynamics change dramatically because we have open space to build.
Quote from: Scott5114 on April 13, 2025, 07:02:57 PMBut from what I know about county government in other states I would be surprised if Colorado didn't run into a lot of bureaucratic and political issues that aren't experienced in other places simply because the county lines fall in awkward places that don't reflect how people actually use the land.
I think in most places, county governments largely oversee unincorporated areas and have some state delegated functions like a health department or a court system. But if you live in an incorporated city, your day to day stuff is largely regulated at the municipality level.
Ideally, I think, each county should have at least one major population center (which, in the case of sparsely populated regions, might not be all that populous), plus the surrounding rural area. In the case of large metro areas, there is likely to be be little to no rural area to speak of, and that's fine. The point is for the county seat to be the magnet for outer areas, even if those outer areas end up being suburban rather than rural.
Monroe County, NY — Perfect. A major population center, plus surrounding rural area.
Cook County, IL — Should either shrink to include less suburban area, or else expand to include more. Villa Park may not be as urban as Cicero, but it's also not Elburn either.
Weld County, CO — Not terrible, even if shaped oddly. Greeley is the county seat, which is somewhat centrally located.
Adams County, CO — A weird shape on the map, but whatever. Brighton isn't centrally located, but it's not like people in the rest of the county aren't already used to driving into the city suburbs. It still works. But, on the other hand, going straight through the town of Strasburg is dumb.
Arapahoe County, CO — Everything I said about Adams County.
Oklahoma City — Bad. Bad, bad, bad. Ridiculous.
Quote from: JayhawkCO on April 15, 2025, 03:55:51 PMQuoteYeah, I can't stand that either. In my view, every county should be able to be reasonably categorized as one of the following:
- Large city (metro area)
- Small city (micro area)
- Suburban
- Exurban
- Rural
Obviously, there's going to be some mixture. But if the county as a whole doesn't reasonably and clearly fall into one of those buckets, either the lines were misdrawn or the county is just way too big.
So are you in favor of redrawing a ton of county lines? I know you're looking at this from an East Coast perspective where things don't change that dramatically in a 30 year period, but out west, the population dynamics change dramatically because we have open space to build.
Not necessarily, no. I get that things are different in the western states, not just because of open land, but also fast-growing populations. Still, I think the bigger issue is that counties in the western states (including Colorado) are much too large for the densifying urban and suburban areas that are being superimposed on top of preexisting lines. Most of the Great Plains states have appropriately-sized counties, but things spiral out of hand west of there.
And that's probably mostly a result of the land having never been developed, which is understandable. I would, however, very much support breaking the massive counties down into smaller ones in areas where dense development is occurring. This happened in the eastern states, too, by the way... it just mostly happened decades and centuries ago, but in hindsight, it was an important step in ensuring that county lines were relatively consistent, logical, and manageable for future generations.
Quote from: kphoger on April 15, 2025, 04:15:28 PMMonroe County, NY — Perfect.
Thank you, thank you.
[webny99 takes a bow] :sombrero:
Quote from: kphoger on April 15, 2025, 04:15:28 PMIdeally, I think, each county should have at least one major population center (which, in the case of sparsely populated regions, might not be all that populous), plus the surrounding rural area. In the case of large metro areas, there is likely to be be little to no rural area to speak of, and that's fine. The point is for the county seat to be the magnet for outer areas, even if those outer areas end up being suburban rather than rural.
On a more serious note: A lot of New York's counties fit this standard pretty well, or at least fit in spirit even if the population center isn't centrally located. I think you'd probably call Onondaga, Tompkins, and Jefferson counties perfect too, for much the same reasons.
Quote from: webny99 on April 15, 2025, 04:17:33 PMAnd that's probably mostly a result of the land having never been developed, which is understandable. I would, however, very much support breaking the massive counties down into smaller ones in areas where dense development is occurring. This happened in the eastern states, too, by the way... it just mostly happened decades and centuries ago, but in hindsight, it was an important step in ensuring that county lines were relatively consistent, logical, and manageable for future generations.
The challenge in the case of these Weld County cities, is that the growth is right along the county line, and I posted upthread, these cities have also annexed land in neighboring counties. So, in order to create new counties out of Weld County, maybe one for the I-25 corridor, one for Greeley, and one for the very, very rural northeastern part of the county, you don't really end up fixing any of the problem of having a county "that matters" unless you also split up neighboring counties and then recombine bits and pieces of what's been split apart to mush things back together.
It's kind of like the colonial boundaries in Africa not making any sense on ethnic lines, and that's why there are so many civil wars. But no country is going to be very willing to give up a little bit of its land, while a neighboring country gives up a little bit of its land to make a new country. See also Kurdistan.
Quote from: webny99 on April 15, 2025, 04:17:33 PMThis happened in the eastern states, too, by the way... it just mostly happened decades and centuries ago, but in hindsight, it was an important step in ensuring that county lines were relatively consistent, logical, and manageable for future generations.
With some exceptions of course, perhaps most notably Norfolk County in Massachusetts.
Quote from: SEWIGuy on April 15, 2025, 04:10:21 PMQuote from: Scott5114 on April 13, 2025, 07:02:57 PMBut from what I know about county government in other states I would be surprised if Colorado didn't run into a lot of bureaucratic and political issues that aren't experienced in other places simply because the county lines fall in awkward places that don't reflect how people actually use the land.
I think in most places, county governments largely oversee unincorporated areas and have some state delegated functions like a health department or a court system. But if you live in an incorporated city, your day to day stuff is largely regulated at the municipality level.
This is true, but that doesn't mean that incorporated city dwellers don't have to interact with the county government at all. When I lived in Cleveland County, Oklahoma, I had to interact with the county government for*:
- Voting (although I was able to do everything by mail)
- The health department (when I worked at Burger King we were required by law to attend a food safety class there)
- The court system (when I got married, also when I bought a house)
Sure, these aren't everyday things, but it's not like the average person will
never interact with the county government. There's also the issue of the government being in a convenient place to be reachable when they get something wrong, or just the plain being able to attend regular county commission meetings to supervise what's going on there (which is something everyone
should be able to do easily even if most people have no interest in doing so).
* I'm not using my current county, Clark County, Nevada, for this, because it is ridiculously powerful as counties go. This is both because a large proportion of people in Clark County live in unincorporated areas, and the economic center of the county is in an unincorporated area. There are very few counties in the U.S. with this set of circumstances. Fortunately, Clark County has reasonable borders (by large Western state standards, at least) and the seat of government is conveniently located for the vast majority of its residents.Quote from: JayhawkCO on April 15, 2025, 04:53:12 PMBut no country is going to be very willing to give up a little bit of its land, while a neighboring country gives up a little bit of its land to make a new country.
Fortunately, in most states, I believe the state Legislature can draw county lines at will, or county lines can be changed by referendum. The actual county governments involved don't have much say in that.
Quote from: Scott5114 on April 15, 2025, 06:52:14 PM* I'm not using my current county, Clark County, Nevada, for this, because it is ridiculously powerful as counties go. This is both because a large proportion of people in Clark County live in unincorporated areas, and the economic center of the county is in an unincorporated area. There are very few counties in the U.S. with this set of circumstances. Fortunately, Clark County has reasonable borders (by large Western state standards, at least) and the seat of government is conveniently located for the vast majority of its residents.
Doesn't Clark County have 75% of Nevada's population or something? I imagine that plays a part too.
Quote from: vdeane on April 15, 2025, 09:01:16 PMQuote from: Scott5114 on April 15, 2025, 06:52:14 PM* I'm not using my current county, Clark County, Nevada, for this, because it is ridiculously powerful as counties go. This is both because a large proportion of people in Clark County live in unincorporated areas, and the economic center of the county is in an unincorporated area. There are very few counties in the U.S. with this set of circumstances. Fortunately, Clark County has reasonable borders (by large Western state standards, at least) and the seat of government is conveniently located for the vast majority of its residents.
Doesn't Clark County have 75% of Nevada's population or something? I imagine that plays a part too.
73.4%, according to the Wikipedia.
Quote from: Scott5114 on April 15, 2025, 06:52:14 PMQuote from: SEWIGuy on April 15, 2025, 04:10:21 PMQuote from: Scott5114 on April 13, 2025, 07:02:57 PMBut from what I know about county government in other states I would be surprised if Colorado didn't run into a lot of bureaucratic and political issues that aren't experienced in other places simply because the county lines fall in awkward places that don't reflect how people actually use the land.
I think in most places, county governments largely oversee unincorporated areas and have some state delegated functions like a health department or a court system. But if you live in an incorporated city, your day to day stuff is largely regulated at the municipality level.
This is true, but that doesn't mean that incorporated city dwellers don't have to interact with the county government at all. When I lived in Cleveland County, Oklahoma, I had to interact with the county government for*:
- Voting (although I was able to do everything by mail)
- The health department (when I worked at Burger King we were required by law to attend a food safety class there)
- The court system (when I got married, also when I bought a house)
Sure, these aren't everyday things, but it's not like the average person will never interact with the county government. There's also the issue of the government being in a convenient place to be reachable when they get something wrong, or just the plain being able to attend regular county commission meetings to supervise what's going on there (which is something everyone should be able to do easily even if most people have no interest in doing so).
* I'm not using my current county, Clark County, Nevada, for this, because it is ridiculously powerful as counties go. This is both because a large proportion of people in Clark County live in unincorporated areas, and the economic center of the county is in an unincorporated area. There are very few counties in the U.S. with this set of circumstances. Fortunately, Clark County has reasonable borders (by large Western state standards, at least) and the seat of government is conveniently located for the vast majority of its residents.
Quote from: JayhawkCO on April 15, 2025, 04:53:12 PMBut no country is going to be very willing to give up a little bit of its land, while a neighboring country gives up a little bit of its land to make a new country.
Fortunately, in most states, I believe the state Legislature can draw county lines at will, or county lines can be changed by referendum. The actual county governments involved don't have much say in that.
Just to add that since court system was mentioned, that largely also entails jury duty. Sure, many get out of it, and it is a real pain, but at the very least the courthouse should be reasonably located for the population that it serves. It is one thing to have to spend your whole day in court and miss your job for only $15/day, and it's quite another when the privilege of doing so entails a 3 hour drive.
Quote from: JayhawkCO on April 15, 2025, 04:53:12 PMThe challenge in the case of these Weld County cities, is that the growth is right along the county line, and I posted upthread, these cities have also annexed land in neighboring counties. So, in order to create new counties out of Weld County, maybe one for the I-25 corridor, one for Greeley, and one for the very, very rural northeastern part of the county, you don't really end up fixing any of the problem of having a county "that matters" unless you also split up neighboring counties and then recombine bits and pieces of what's been split apart to mush things back together.
It's kind of like the colonial boundaries in Africa not making any sense on ethnic lines, and that's why there are so many civil wars. But no country is going to be very willing to give up a little bit of its land, while a neighboring country gives up a little bit of its land to make a new country. See also Kurdistan.
This is exactly what happened with Broomfield. Expansion caused the city to lay in parts of four counties, including Weld County. It split away as its own county in 2001. I don't think that Kurdistan would have as easy of a path to independence as Broomfield, given that countries have a bit more sovereignty than counties.
Also, I'm not sure how well you think Northeastern Weld County would do as an independent county, given that the population makes up of two ranchers and a dozen cattle. It would be better if they merged with Logan County, Morgan County, or the new (proposed) Weld Central County. I don't think Weld County needs to be split or reapportioned between counties, since Greeley does a pretty good job of serving 98% of the population.
What I would do in terms of splitting counties is take the western scraggly bits of Adams and Arapahoe Counties and merge them with Jefferson and Douglas Counties, respectively (since Denver probably wants to remain independent). The remaining rectangles centered around Strasburg can merge into one county, with Bennett as the county seat.
I have zero interest in being incorporated into Douglas County politics.
Quote from: JayhawkCO on April 30, 2025, 03:23:46 AMI have zero interest in being incorporated into Douglas County politics.
What's the issue? I have lived in both very blue and very red counties. The only time county politics have ever affected my life (beyond a double digit number of tax dollars per year) was during Covid.
Quote from: thspfc on April 30, 2025, 10:24:02 AMQuote from: JayhawkCO on April 30, 2025, 03:23:46 AMI have zero interest in being incorporated into Douglas County politics.
What's the issue? I have lived in both very blue and very red counties. The only time county politics have ever affected my life (beyond a double digit number of tax dollars per year) was during Covid.
Without diving too deeply per TOS, it's not necessarily the politics itself, more the attitude of the fine people of Douglas County. Lots and lots of new money there, which leads to a lot of entitlement and attitudes that I don't agree with. I went to high school there and still work there occasionally.
Quote from: JayhawkCO on April 30, 2025, 10:42:40 AMQuote from: thspfc on April 30, 2025, 10:24:02 AMQuote from: JayhawkCO on April 30, 2025, 03:23:46 AMI have zero interest in being incorporated into Douglas County politics.
What's the issue? I have lived in both very blue and very red counties. The only time county politics have ever affected my life (beyond a double digit number of tax dollars per year) was during Covid.
Without diving too deeply per TOS, it's not necessarily the politics itself, more the attitude of the fine people of Douglas County. Lots and lots of new money there, which leads to a lot of entitlement and attitudes that I don't agree with. I went to high school there and still work there occasionally.
What does Star Trek have to do with anything?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maldives
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mal%C3%A9
Malè in the Maldives have one of the densest populations in the world. Yet the total population is at 200k for Male and 500k for Maldives the entire country.
Here are some of the largest unincorporated areas in the country.