From the "Illinois may Increase speed limit 70" thread in Great lakes... --ms
Quote from: iwishiwascanadian on August 01, 2010, 07:38:29 PM
Quote from: AlpsROADS on August 01, 2010, 07:06:02 PM
Quote from: iwishiwascanadian on August 01, 2010, 04:47:09 PM
Quote from: Brandon on June 08, 2010, 10:48:28 AM
^^
Ohio, Illinois, Wisconsin, and Oregon need to join the 21st Century. For that matter, most of the northeast could also bump up to 70 with no problem, IMHO.
I agree. When I went from Hartford, CT to Alexandria, VA I noticed the highest speed limit was 65. I can understand the limited speed limit in the highly urban areas (going through the cities) but in many cases the speed limit could be raised to 70 or even 75 in the rural areas (I-84 between Waterbury and Danbury). When I was taking the NJ Turnpike and even I-95 in Maryland north of Baltimore I occasionally hit 80 or 85, and that was with the flow of traffic.
You can't say these things until you've traveled the road more than once. I-84 should be nowhere near 75 in Connecticut, not to mention it really can't move above 50 most times. The NJ Turnpike is designed for 75-80 mph or higher, but it has such a high truck mix that fatal accidents will skyrocket for every 5 mph you add. And we've discussed split limits before, and they're less desirable than just keeping everyone at 65. Same issue with I-95 in MD - fewer trucks, by a long shot, but then again you have four lanes in each direction, which gives you more weaving and certainly more traffic in general, thus conducive to lower speeds. There's a reason the Northeast moves slower!
It may be true that traffic is a major factor in speed limits, but most of the time (barring accidents/rush hour) traffic moves on I-84 and most other roads in CT faster than the speed limit. A speed limit is a limit, it isn't a requirement that drivers must go 65. I believe in following the flow of traffic. That's just a opinion of a person that has lived in CT for his entire life.
It is true - go with the flow of the traffic. Unfortunately, many drivers don't share that view and have much desire to get around that slow vehicle at all costs - which leads to crashes.
Quote from: Master son on August 02, 2010, 08:31:59 AM
It is true - go with the flow of the traffic.
one person doing 58 in the fast lane with everyone else doing 85 to get around him ... the slow guy is decidedly not who is defining the flow of traffic. he's a rock in the stream.
Quote from: agentsteel53 on August 02, 2010, 10:06:48 AM
Quote from: Master son on August 02, 2010, 08:31:59 AM
It is true - go with the flow of the traffic.
one person doing 58 in the fast lane with everyone else doing 85 to get around him ... the slow guy is decidedly not who is defining the flow of traffic. he's a rock in the stream.
Hence why you have the weaving traffic.
Quote from: Master son on August 02, 2010, 11:53:54 AM
Hence why you have the weaving traffic.
indeed we do, and I do not think it reasonable to blame the asinine driving behavior of everyone for the asinine driving behavior of one person.
indeed - but the police think otherwise.
^^^
The "keeping up with flow of traffic" law?/rule? can lead to a no-win situation.
Let's say traffic is moving 70 in a 55mph zone.
If you are going 55 mph, you are a safety hazard and may be cited for not "keeping up with flow of traffic". However, despite that, plenty of jurisdictions would still pull you over for speeding even though "everybody was doing it".
Quote from: Master son on August 02, 2010, 06:51:26 PM
indeed - but the police think otherwise.
Those cops should be fired. The jerk going slow in the fast lane is doing far more harm. In my state, there are a number of things they can ding the jerk in the fast lane with.
If I were a cop, the way I would handle the whole flow of traffic argument if traffic is flowing at...say...85 in a 55 is to ask the following:
1. Is the driver in the right lane going 55?- if that's the case, they may be dangerous but best not to pull them over
2. Is the driver in the left lane going 55?- if that's the case, he's blatantly disregarding flow of traffic principles and should get a ticket
3. Is the driver in the right lane going 85?- if that's the case, he's speeding
4. Is the driver in the left lane going 85?- if that's the case, he's doing his best to keep up with the flow of traffic, so no ticket
If traffic is flowing 85 in a 55 and the driver is going as much as one under the speed limit, he should be pulled over and ticketed for obstructing traffic.
^^^
That's a logical and sensible way to handle it.
<sarcasm> Therefore, it will never happen. </sarcasm>
Quote^^^
That's a logical and sensible way to handle it.
<sarcasm> Therefore, it will never happen. </sarcasm>
Yeah, you're right. Unfortunately it will always be more lucrative to pull over those trying to keep up with the flow of traffic. It's also an easier court win- if a car was speeding a car was speeding- pretty objective. Things like proper lane position and traffic flow obstruction (especially when the car is going the legal limit) are a lot more subjective and difficult to win.
Indeed - easier to win - easier to make money.
Quote from: corco on August 02, 2010, 09:00:56 PM
If I were a cop, the way I would handle the whole flow of traffic argument if traffic is flowing at...say...85 in a 55 is to ask the following:
1. Is the driver in the right lane going 55?- if that's the case, they may be dangerous but best not to pull them over
2. Is the driver in the left lane going 55?- if that's the case, he's blatantly disregarding flow of traffic principles and should get a ticket
3. Is the driver in the right lane going 85?- if that's the case, he's speeding
4. Is the driver in the left lane going 85?- if that's the case, he's doing his best to keep up with the flow of traffic, so no ticket
If traffic is flowing 85 in a 55 and the driver is going as much as one under the speed limit, he should be pulled over and ticketed for obstructing traffic.
I would say the 55mph limit is the cause of the problem and it should need raising.
Quote from: Truvelo on August 03, 2010, 02:09:08 AM
I would say the 55mph limit is the cause of the problem and it should need raising.
55 is stupid. every time I see a 55, I think that the local administration is utterly lazy.
yes, there are some areas that happen to be validly signed as 55 mph, but they are far between. I'd honestly rather see a 50, because that implies that the local council has thought about it.
(but in all honestly I'd rather see 99.)
Quote from: agentsteel53 on August 03, 2010, 02:12:44 AM
Quote from: Truvelo on August 03, 2010, 02:09:08 AM
I would say the 55mph limit is the cause of the problem and it should need raising.
55 is stupid. every time I see a 55, I think that the local administration is utterly lazy.
yes, there are some areas that happen to be validly signed as 55 mph, but they are far between. I'd honestly rather see a 50, because that implies that the local council has thought about it.
(but in all honestly I'd rather see 99.)
In Indiana (and I thought every state) our speed limits are set by the state. I believe that if Indianapolis or Lake County had the jurisdiction to set the speed limits, it would be 65. The Indianapolis police rarely pull people over, it is just the state police.
Quote from: agentsteel53 on August 03, 2010, 02:12:44 AM
(but in all honestly I'd rather see 99.)
Unless it's in an interstate shield. :-D
I hate people who impede the flow of traffic. Where I live most people don't follow the speed limit (going 80/85 in a 55/60/65). I think that many states never changed speed limits when the national limit was removed. I can understand where a lower speed limit is needed (I-91 North in Longmeadow/Springfield MA), but for the most part many limits could be raised. If it came to a ticket, I would rather ticket someone who is slower than traffic and therefore impeding the flow of traffic, but i'm not a law enforcement official.
Here's another nuisance: People who start slowing down BEFORE turning on the turn signal. That's IF they even turn the damn blinker on!
QuoteHere's another nuisance: People who start slowing down BEFORE turning on the turn signal. That's IF they even turn the damn blinker on!
On that, note, and in keeping with the flow of traffic problem, I can't stand folks who brake before their exit. Sure, if you're in rural Wyoming and the exit is a glorified 90 degree turn or in a super urban area with a really short ramp, it may make sense, but for the vast majority of ramps across the country it is perfectly safe for a car with legal brakes to go 75 or 80 (or whatever the speed limit) to the point where they are on the exit ramp and be able to safely slow down in time for the stop light.
The person to arrest when traffic is going 85 in a 55 zone is the politician who is insisting that the speed limit be 55. He obviously is more interested in getting ticket revenue for his government.
If the traffic is that dispersed in speed, it indicates an incapability of some vehicles to keep up, and a lack of enough lanes.
Before you berate the slow driver, you need to look for reasons he is going slow:
- Some of the little gas-saving cars can't go 85.
- Some cars built in the 1980s don't have speedometers that go that high.
- He would be redlining the engine if he goes faster.
- Vehicle with axle ratio designed for towing is not towing right now, but has no more speed available.
- The driver might be looking for a left exit.
- Car trouble
- Obeying the law to the letter.
- Afraid of getting a ticket.
- Cargo came loose inside, and they are going slow until they get to the next exit.
- GPS-monitored employer-owned vehicle (driver gets docked pay for exceeding the speed limit).
- Drivers with enough points that they lose their licenses with another ticket.
- Cars designed in the 55 mph era that become unstable at higher speeds.
85 seems a bit fast to me, considering how American cars are designed.
Quote from: Troubleshooter on August 03, 2010, 09:18:53 PM
- Some of the little gas-saving cars can't go 85.
valid, there's a right lane for that.
Quote- Some cars built in the 1980s don't have speedometers that go that high.
the lowest I've ever seen a speedometer go up to is 85. Besides, you do not need to know your exact speed to keep up with traffic.
Quote- He would be redlining the engine if he goes faster.
right lane.
Quote- Vehicle with axle ratio designed for towing is not towing right now, but has no more speed available.
right lane.
Quote- The driver might be looking for a left exit.
that's why freeways tend to be built with right exit only these days. But yes, this is a legitimate reason to be going slower than the speed of traffic in the left lane.
Quote- Car trouble
emergency flashers, and drive in the breakdown lane if necessary.
Quote- Obeying the law to the letter.
the law says stay to the right except to pass. hypocrites.
Quote- Afraid of getting a ticket.
cowards.
Quote- Cargo came loose inside, and they are going slow until they get to the next exit.
again, right lane. Possible hazard lights.
Quote- GPS-monitored employer-owned vehicle (driver gets docked pay for exceeding the speed limit).
right lane. I'd say "find another employer" but in this economy, anything short of being forced to endure sodomy for 19 cents an hour is no grounds for quitting.
Quote- Drivers with enough points that they lose their licenses with another ticket.
couldn't talk their way out of a ticket. morons. right lane, and learn that - when you are driving with the flow of traffic - 99% of cops are not looking to write a ticket until you talk them into it.
Quote- Cars designed in the 55 mph era that become unstable at higher speeds.
right lane.
in short, the only legitimate reason to be going slowly in the left lane is to find your left exit, and hopefully get the hell off the road within a mile. Driving slowly in the left lane from Baton Rouge to Sheboygan? congrats, you're an idiot. Take the bus.
Cars were mandated to have 85 MPH speedometers from sometime in the 70s until the late 80s/early 90s, and after that the numbers just went up. You won't find a car designed after 1993 or so with a speedometer that tops out at less than 100 (there were several holdover models- the Jeep Cherokee had one through 1996, for instance, but at redesign in 97 the speedo went to 100- I can't think of any post-1997 cars with 85 MPH speedos, because in 1998 airbags became required which pretty much forced any holdouts to redesign their dashboards)
The speed/old car argument holds water if it's some old jalopy- if a car is cruising in the right lane and is an old piece of junk I'm not going to whine. The problem is, the cars are often newer cars that very definitely are capable of going at higher, safer speeds. There really aren't that many cars left on the roads from the 80s, especially on interstates.
If he's in the left lane, it's inexcusable. If he's in the right lane in a decent car, it's excusable but annoying.
Quote from: agentsteel53 on August 03, 2010, 09:35:14 PM
Quote from: Troubleshooter on August 03, 2010, 09:18:53 PM
- Some of the little gas-saving cars can't go 85.
valid, there's a right lane for that.
Note that this is NOT the law in all states. Some states have repealed as antiquated all laws that tell which side to pass on, except on two way two lane roads.
And the states that reserve the left lane for passing are shooting themselves in the feet, because they are seriously limiting the capacity of the highway by doing that. That's why the laws were repealed.
QuoteQuote- The driver might be looking for a left exit.
that's why freeways tend to be built with right exit only these days. But yes, this is a legitimate reason to be going slower than the speed of traffic in the left lane.
I agree that left hand exits are not a good idea. But we are stuck with them until the money is available to rebuild the interchanges.
QuoteQuote- Obeying the law to the letter.
the law says stay to the right except to pass. hypocrites.
Not in all states. In my state, this is required only where it is posted.
Note that a driver traveling in a "foreign" state might not be aware of such a difference in the laws.
Quote- GPS-monitored employer-owned vehicle (driver gets docked pay for exceeding the speed limit).
right lane. I'd say "find another employer" but in this economy, anything short of being forced to endure sodomy for 19 cents an hour is no grounds for quitting.[/quote]
It's not the employer as much as it is the employer's insurer that demands it.
QuoteQuote- Drivers with enough points that they lose their licenses with another ticket.
couldn't talk their way out of a ticket. morons. right lane, and learn that - when you are driving with the flow of traffic - 99% of cops are not looking to write a ticket until you talk them into it.
Not here. The governments are looking for every dollar of revenue they can get, so they troll for suckers.
I have another one to add:
Drivers who are not good at merging tend to avoid the right lane to avoid merging situations.
QuoteAnd the states that reserve the left lane for passing are shooting themselves in the feet, because they are seriously limiting the capacity of the highway by doing that. That's why the laws were repealed.
This...is an oversimplification. Pretty much every traffic engineering study ever shows conclusively that traffic moves more efficiently and more safely when the left lane is used as a passing lane. Sure, you can fit more cars into a smaller area by having them fill both lanes, but you can get more cars through that smaller area faster in a left lane for passing model. It's also important to keep in mind that accidents are a terrible use of capacity- if there's not a fast lane and a slow lane, the fast cars will inevitably hit the slow cars (not assigning blame there, that's just an inevitability- there will always be cars going both slower and faster than the flow of traffic), which slows things up for everyone.
If you're interested in such studies, I'd first direct you to "A behavioral theory of multi-lane traffic flow," published in 2002. The Transportation Research Board has also published several related studies, all of which find that ideally, the keep right except to pass model is by far the best one. The issue right now is in educating drivers to make sure they realize that this is by far the most safe and efficient way to drive.
For a real world example, the speed unlimited portions of the Autobahn are a good example- if the left lane were not reserved for passing only, traffic would move far less efficiently and deaths would skyrocket because cars going above the speed of the flow of traffic would have no idea which lane the slower cars were in and would therefore either have to slow down significantly or risk death.
What state has repealed a keep right except to pass law? I'd be very interested to know- several states have never had them and several have adopted them in the last 30 or so years (Colorado, for one), but who has repealed one?
Quote from: Troubleshooter on August 04, 2010, 12:28:34 AM
Note that this is NOT the law in all states. Some states have repealed as antiquated all laws that tell which side to pass on, except on two way two lane roads.
I don't consider those laws to be antiquated at all... when obeyed by both sets of parties (slow and fast drivers), they make driving a hell of a lot smoother. Passing on the right is bad. Being passed on the right is worse.
QuoteI agree that left hand exits are not a good idea. But we are stuck with them until the money is available to rebuild the interchanges.
but they are fairly rare, and most of the left-lane sitters are not looking for an exit as much as just camped out and oblivious to their surroundings.
QuoteNot in all states. In my state, this is required only where it is posted.
Note that a driver traveling in a "foreign" state might not be aware of such a difference in the laws.
yeah, a lot of states have random laws. Isn't it Ohio where it's illegal to make a U-turn? I try to obey the most sensible convex hull of all states laws. I slow down and move over a lane in
all states when I see an emergency vehicle on the shoulder. I drive on the left side only when passing in
all states. etc.
QuoteIt's not the employer as much as it is the employer's insurer that demands it.
the point remains the same. Stay in the right lane and be glad you have a job.
QuoteNot here. The governments are looking for every dollar of revenue they can get, so they troll for suckers.
the suckiest suckers are those that drive fast
through town. There's no getting out of a 35 in a 20 down the main drag. That's just you being dumb. 80 in a 65, unless you're the only car on the road, if you actually have to write the traffic department a check, then you got played. Bad.
QuoteDrivers who are not good at merging tend to avoid the right lane to avoid merging situations.
maybe they should avoid public roads in general.
remember the first rule of driving: "if you cannot see the problem,
you are the problem."
Quote from: agentsteel53 on August 04, 2010, 12:46:12 AM
Passing on the right is bad. Being passed on the right is worse.
OK, if passing on the right is bad and/or illegal, then what do you recommend if some yutz is in the leftmost lane going 20 mph less than everyone else?
Quote from: mightyace on August 04, 2010, 12:56:02 AM
OK, if passing on the right is bad and/or illegal, then what do you recommend if some yutz is in the leftmost lane going 20 mph less than everyone else?
short of a disintegrator pistol, pass them on the right of course! it is a necessary evil.
Quote from: mightyace on August 04, 2010, 12:56:02 AM
Quote from: agentsteel53 on August 04, 2010, 12:46:12 AM
Passing on the right is bad. Being passed on the right is worse.
OK, if passing on the right is bad and/or illegal, then what do you recommend if some yutz is in the leftmost lane going 20 mph less than everyone else?
Get right on their ass and flash your lights and honk your horn. And when they don't move out of the way, pass them on the right.
Quote from: agentsteel53 on August 04, 2010, 12:46:12 AM
I agree that left hand exits are not a good idea. But we are stuck with them until the money is available to rebuild the interchanges.
but they are fairly rare, and most of the left-lane sitters are not looking for an exit as much as just camped out and oblivious to their surroundings.
One case where this happens is on a 4 lane expressway when somebody is making a left turn. Another reason why expressways are dangerous.
Quote
yeah, a lot of states have random laws. Isn't it Ohio where it's illegal to make a U-turn? I try to obey the most sensible convex hull of all states laws. I slow down and move over a lane in all states when I see an emergency vehicle on the shoulder. I drive on the left side only when passing in all states. etc.
I get over if anybody is on the shoulder. Why are cops special?
Quote from: bugo on August 04, 2010, 01:07:33 AM
I get over if anybody is on the shoulder. Why are cops special?
I try my best for everyone but I will give a special effort for an emergency vehicle. I've pulled over for abandoned parked cars and felt pretty silly thereafter!
Quote from: bugo on August 04, 2010, 01:03:20 AM
Get right on their ass and flash your lights and honk your horn. And when they don't move out of the way, pass them on the right.
people in the US seem to be oblivious to having the lights flashed at them. I've had people slam on the brakes before. I've figured out that the easiest, sanest solution is to just leave them in the dust and never think about their poor worthless souls again.
Quote from: bugo on August 04, 2010, 01:07:33 AM
I get over if anybody is on the shoulder. Why are cops special?
I try to do that, too. If anything, ordinary citizens need it more as they are less likely to be careful while moving around on the shoulder.
Quote from: agentsteel53 on August 04, 2010, 01:17:47 AM
Quote from: bugo on August 04, 2010, 01:03:20 AM
Get right on their ass and flash your lights and honk your horn. And when they don't move out of the way, pass them on the right.
people in the US seem to be oblivious to having the lights flashed at them. I've had people slam on the brakes before. I've figured out that the easiest, sanest solution is to just leave them in the dust and never think about their poor worthless souls again.
Agreed.
On the rare occasion that I've had my lights flashed at me, it's usually some yahoo who wants to go 10-20 mph faster than anyone else and wants me to move over when it's not safe.
Quote from: mightyace on August 04, 2010, 01:18:42 AM
On the rare occasion that I've had my lights flashed at me, it's usually some yahoo who wants to go 10-20 mph faster than anyone else and wants me to move over when it's not safe.
I've had someone flash their lights (not just high beams - I mean turning the lights on and off, at night) while coming up behind me doing at least 140. I had been in the left lane doing about 82 - I stayed in one place and let them pass me on the right. No use trying to play "after you - no, after you" with that kind of maniac.
Quote from: agentsteel53 on August 04, 2010, 01:17:47 AM
Quote from: bugo on August 04, 2010, 01:03:20 AM
Get right on their ass and flash your lights and honk your horn. And when they don't move out of the way, pass them on the right.
people in the US seem to be oblivious to having the lights flashed at them.
Except in Florida. Florida drivers will flash their lights at you until you move.
Quote from: bugo on August 04, 2010, 01:36:09 AM
Except in Florida. Florida drivers will flash their lights at you until you move.
Florida drivers will do a lot of things. They will run a stop sign and then park in front of you and get out of the car to argue with you for daring to claim your right of way.
Miami should not be in any way construed as a representative example of civilization.
"So this is Miami. They can keep it."
-Big Trouble
I have a found memory of the Louisiana highway patrol pulling over a van that was driving slow in the left lane on I-20, backing traffic up because he was micropassing a string of semis in the left lane in his intent to obey the letter of the law (because there was a cop around!).
Personally I drive five miles an hour over the limit, so I get very annoyed by the people driving 80 mph because they prevent me from passing the people going under the speed limit.
NY must have repealed keep right except to pass, because the driver's manual merely recommends passing on the left (btw, if you don't like passing on the right, don't EVER drive in Rochester), though the signs on the Thruway remain.
I just find it funny that on a four lane interstate (two lanes in each direction) most people keep right except to pass. But whenever you add a additional lane, people avoid the right lane like it's the plague. Whenever i'm on the road I notice that the right lane is empty whereas the left lane is packed and the middle lane is as well.
QuoteI just find it funny that on a four lane interstate (two lanes in each direction) most people keep right except to pass. But whenever you add a additional lane, people avoid the right lane like it's the plague. Whenever i'm on the road I notice that the right lane is empty whereas the left lane is packed and the middle lane is as well.
That's done on purpose. If there's 3+ lanes, the right lane become a collector/distributor/truck lane, while the middle is for general travel, with the left being used for passing. No reason for it to be used for general travel- there's usually only 3+ lanes in urban areas where there's lots of merging traffic.
In theory with more than three lanes, the right most lane should be a fairly slow lane primarily used for accelerating/decelerating/trucks, then as you move left the lanes should increase in speed until the leftmost lane, which is reserved for passing.
And, generally, traffic is busy enough that being in the right lane means you're getting slowed down by people merging that aren't going freeway speed.
Quote
In theory with more than three lanes, the right most lane should be a fairly slow lane primarily used for accelerating/decelerating/trucks, then as you move left the lanes should increase in speed until the leftmost lane, which is reserved for passing.
Tell that to PennDOT, so that their freeways can be upgraded to 3 lanes all around. Sheesh, I never get that frustrated with trucks until I get into Pennsylvania.
Actually, tell that to VDOT too regarding Interstate 81.
Back to the topic of drivers, I am generally that 75-80 guy, but I try to be as patient as possible with slow drivers. But, if you're doing the speed limit in the left lane with a fast driver on your ass, and room to move over, do not be an idiot. MOVE OVER!!!!!! :pan: :verymad:
What would actually help is to have signs informing drivers that the left lane is for passing only, like what they did on the 3 lane sections of the Ohio Turnpike.
Quote from: bugo on August 04, 2010, 01:36:09 AM
Quote from: agentsteel53 on August 04, 2010, 01:17:47 AM
Quote from: bugo on August 04, 2010, 01:03:20 AM
Get right on their ass and flash your lights and honk your horn. And when they don't move out of the way, pass them on the right.
people in the US seem to be oblivious to having the lights flashed at them.
Except in Florida. Florida drivers will flash their lights at you until you move.
In the event that someone's driving slow in the fast lane, put your hi-beams on and keep them on until they get out of the fast lane. OK, so it will probably blind them to the point of causing a crash, at least they will know that the next time they drive slow in the fast lane (around 55 MPH) they need to speed up.
Having done a ton of driving in the northeast, upper midwest, and the east coast over the last month, pretty much all of the annoying and dangerous driving practices I've read in this thread are very fresh in my mind. Bottom line, if you're in the left lane and someone wants to pass you, get to the right as soon as you safely can do so. Whether it's the law or not in a particular state, it makes sense to do it.
So many of the problems with our roads could be solved by making it a lot harder to get and keep a driver's license. Some bad drivers would have to be better drivers; others simply could not get or keep a license. Imagine how much less congestion there would be and how much more pleasant your driving experience would be if every idiot driver you encountered was on a bus or on foot instead.
Quote from: The Premier on August 05, 2010, 03:51:37 PM
What would actually help is to have signs informing drivers that the left lane is for passing only, like what they did on the 3 lane sections of the Ohio Turnpike.
The left lane should never be reserved for passing only. This is wrong thinking, and greatly reduces the capacity of the road.
Quote from: agentsteel53 on August 04, 2010, 01:17:47 AM
people in the US seem to be oblivious to having the lights flashed at them. I've had people slam on the brakes before. I've figured out that the easiest, sanest solution is to just leave them in the dust and never think about their poor worthless souls again.
This is because flashing lights mean stop for emergency reasons to a current or former truck driver.
It is illegal in most states to flash headlights to either demand or give the right of way.
QuoteThe left lane should never be reserved for passing only. This is wrong thinking, and greatly reduces the capacity of the road.
Pretty much every traffic engineering study ever shows conclusively that traffic moves more efficiently and more safely when the left lane is used as a passing lane. Sure, you can fit more cars into a smaller area by having them fill both lanes, but you can get more cars through that smaller area faster in a left lane for passing model. It's also important to keep in mind that accidents are a terrible use of capacity- if there's not a fast lane and a slow lane, the fast cars will inevitably hit the slow cars (not assigning blame there, that's just an inevitability- there will always be cars going both slower and faster than the flow of traffic), which slows things up for everyone.
If you're interested in such studies, I'd first direct you to "A behavioral theory of multi-lane traffic flow," published in 2002. The Transportation Research Board has also published several related studies, all of which find that ideally, the keep right except to pass model is by far the best one. The issue right now is in educating drivers to make sure they realize that this is by far the most safe and efficient way to drive.
Another point to consider is that most of the road mileage in America is well under capacity, so even if it were a waste of capacity (which it is not), there's not much sense in worrying about wasting it at the expense of safety.
For a real world example, the speed unlimited portions of the Autobahn are a good example- if the left lane were not reserved for passing only, traffic would move far less efficiently and deaths would skyrocket because cars going above the speed of the flow of traffic would have no idea which lane the slower cars were in and would therefore either have to slow down significantly or risk death.
Now, it does seem on the surface that the keep right except to pass model fails in heavy traffic or gridlock. Sure, we need our capacity there. That said, the "keep right except to pass" philosophy is naturally in play there as well, although it manifests itself differently. Any schlamazel who has ever sat in heavy traffic knows that the only reason you'd cruise in the left lane in gridlock is because your exit isn't coming up any time soon. The natural human condition in traffic is "how can I get where I'm going quickly and without killing myself?" As a result, the human instinct is to move to the left lane in that traffic if one's exit is not coming up (ignoring left exits here- that obviously changes the entire dynamic) for two reasons:
1) to avoid the hassle of merging (as you said)
2) to get around, i.e. pass all those cars merging in!
Of course, anybody who has driven in traffic can tell you that's not always the case, and the right or middle lanes often move faster than the left lanes, but the reason the left lanes are crowded is that they are full of cars who want to PASS the other cars. That may not actually happen, but that's absolutely the intent. In heavy traffic, the human instinct to get as far away from the exiting lane as possible to move quickly is possibly the most obvious manifestation of "keep right except to pass" of them all. Capacity naturally fills in the left lane even under a keep right except to pass model because the cars in the left lane want to pass! They just can't because of the gridlock.
Real world example- the way you seem to think "keep right except to pass" would work (if it removes capacity so much) makes me picture a downtown rushhour an a 3 lane in each direction highway. On this highway, two lanes are full of thousands of cars stopped, while the third has a few rogue vehicles going 60 MPH. Is that logical? Is that possible? No. Several thousand of the thousands of cars would want to pass the slow cars, and would go into the left lane to pass, slowing up the left lane to the speed of the other two lanes. Capacity is filled, but the intent of the cars in the left lane is that they are passing the cars on the right. They may not be, but they certainly want to or as a function of nature they wouldn't be in the left lane. They are in the left lane to pass, they just can't pass
yet.
This is why it works in more rural areas- it's intuitive. The people who fail to keep right except to pass violate intuition, which makes them dangerous.
As you continue to very confidently suggest an unconventional claim that goes against accepted knowledge, I would be quite interested to see a factual refutation based on studies or other actual numbers. Remember the burden of proof is on those with the unconventional argument- in this case that's you. I would also (still) be very interested in hearing what states have repealed a keep right except to pass law (and when). This could be an interesting debate- it would be neat to hear a supported argument for the other side of it, but saying flatly "That's wrong" without any support (preferably concrete evidence, but even I'm a sucker for a well-developed ramble) isn't useful.
Quote from: Troubleshooter on August 09, 2010, 11:18:49 PM
It is illegal in most states to flash headlights to either demand or give the right of way.
yet another law to cater to the moronic, the addled, the unable to proceed, the backwards, the dead.
losers vote. that sums up all that is wrong with society in general these days in two elegant little words, doesn't it?
^^^
I've heard, but I could be completely off target here, that in Tennessee, it is illegal to flash your lights to warn drivers of a cop behind you and, of course, ahead of opposing traffic.
But, even if that's true, I've heard nothing about flashing your lights to try and make someone get out of your way being illegal.BTW If you want to flash your lights at me to get me to move over, don't do it from 3 feet behind me. I'm liable not to move over out of spite for tailgating me!
Edit:
After reading corco's post, I looked in the Wikipedia article and the section on Tennessee says:
QuoteIn Tennessee, flashing headlights to warn oncoming traffic of a police car ahead is protected free speech under the First Amendment to the United States Constitution.
Hey, what do you know? The wikipedia article has a nice list with links to relevant statute (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Headlight_flashing):
Neat points:
California- specifically LEGAL to do it in that situation False
Illegal to do it in most states for the reason mightyace pointed out, but not illegal in a lot of other situations
A minority of states- completely illegal (no matter the situation)
Lots of states don't have any law on the books from what I can find in a quick search beyond wikipedia
I'll continue searching- but I haven't seen yet in any state where it's specifically mentioned as illegal to do it in a passing situation.
Quote from: mightyace on August 10, 2010, 12:01:17 AM
I've heard, but I could be completely off target here, that in Tennessee, it is illegal to flash your lights to warn drivers of a cop behind you and, of course, ahead of opposing traffic.
if they pull me over for that, I will claim I was warning drivers about a deer/moose/elk/antelope/bear/elephant/shark/Godzilla/Jesus/etc.
^^^
Don't worry. I was mistaken about that anyway.
BTW And, near Hohenwald, TN, the elephant argument might actually work.
Quote from: Troubleshooter on August 09, 2010, 11:18:49 PM
This is because flashing lights mean stop for emergency reasons to a current or former truck driver.
So when that big ol' semi truck I'm passing on the freeway flashes his lights at me, I'm supposed to stop? I always thought it was an "OK to change lanes" signal. :confused:
^^^ I thought the same thing, and I've seen truckers flash headlights to each other indicating when the trailer of the passing truck is clear of the truck being passed, and it was safe to move over to the right.
I've had trucks do this to me when I passed them, indicating when I could return to the right lane in front of them. Vice versa, I've done the same to truckers, usually getting the "truckers thank you" in return. (the brief flashing of the tail lights or clearence marker lights)
Quote from: Troubleshooter on August 09, 2010, 11:18:49 PM
The left lane should never be reserved for passing only. This is wrong thinking, and greatly reduces the capacity of the road.
So all those "Keep Right Except To Pass" signs are wrong? What if I want to pass someone, but can't because someone is blocking the left lane?
Quote from: andrewkbrown on August 10, 2010, 10:33:00 AM
^^^ I thought the same thing, and I've seen truckers flash headlights to each other indicating when the trailer of the passing truck is clear of the truck being passed, and it was safe to move over to the right.
I've had trucks do this to me when I passed them, indicating when I could return to the right lane in front of them. Vice versa, I've done the same to truckers, usually getting the "truckers thank you" in return. (the brief flashing of the tail lights or clearence marker lights)
I do this as well. It's amazing how the long haul truckers will work with you on the road when you're nice to them. Now the local gravel trucks on the other hand... :verymad:
Quote from: Brandon on August 10, 2010, 11:13:16 AM
I do this as well. It's amazing how the long haul truckers will work with you on the road when you're nice to them. Now the local gravel trucks on the other hand... :verymad:
is there a polite way to say "please do not jump in front of me, doing 62, to pass someone doing 60, when the speed limit is 75 and I am clearly coming up behind you doing 79"?
Quote from: agentsteel53 on August 10, 2010, 11:18:54 AM
Quote from: Brandon on August 10, 2010, 11:13:16 AM
I do this as well. It's amazing how the long haul truckers will work with you on the road when you're nice to them. Now the local gravel trucks on the other hand... :verymad:
is there a polite way to say "please do not jump in front of me, doing 62, to pass someone doing 60, when the speed limit is 75 and I am clearly coming up behind you doing 79"?
I believe it is as follows:
1. Roll down window.
2. Place arm out of window.
3. Extend the middle finger.
4. Hit the horn at the same time.
:pan:
Quote from: Brandon on August 10, 2010, 11:35:19 AM
I believe it is as follows:
1. Roll down window.
2. Place arm out of window.
3. Extend the middle finger.
4. Hit the horn at the same time.
:pan:
especially if I am forced onto the median. That tends to get
two middle fingers. Four if I have a passenger.
I never hit the horn, though. I've honked the horn twice in my life - both times, I was behind a vehicle, stopped at a traffic light, and it was rolling backwards down the hill and about to hit me and I had no place to escape.
Quote from: agentsteel53 on August 10, 2010, 11:37:11 AM
especially if I am forced onto the median. That tends to get two middle fingers. Four if I have a passenger.
I never hit the horn, though. I've honked the horn twice in my life - both times, I was behind a vehicle, stopped at a traffic light, and it was rolling backwards down the hill and about to hit me and I had no place to escape.
Living around Chicago, I can't count how many times I've had to use the horn to avoid an accident. As the old joke about regional driving habits goes, Chicagoans tend to have one hand on the wheel, one hand on the horn. The joke is too true.
Quote from: Brandon on August 10, 2010, 11:35:19 AM
I believe it is as follows:
1. Roll down window.
2. Place arm out of window.
3. Extend the middle finger.
4. Hit the horn at the same time.
:pan:
How about a laser cannon? (https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.3dallusions.com%2Fforums%2Fimages%2Fsmilies%2FSmileyWithLaserCannon.gif&hash=97af8440818eb7157e9e2446efd8ad6369f98654)
You mean like this: http://www.sluggy.com/comics/archives/daily/980621 ?
that comic neither makes sense nor is particularly funny.
but hey, I only just now found out that Jesus hates toll transponders, so what do I know.
Quote from: US71 on August 10, 2010, 11:44:57 AM
How about a laser cannon? (https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.3dallusions.com%2Fforums%2Fimages%2Fsmilies%2FSmileyWithLaserCannon.gif&hash=97af8440818eb7157e9e2446efd8ad6369f98654)
I like, and I keep asking for it at the car dealership. For some reason that and the bazooka option aren't offered.
Quote from: agentsteel53 on August 10, 2010, 01:36:40 PM
that comic neither makes sense nor is particularly funny.
First four panels only for the relevant joke.
Beamcannons are better. (https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fbickenland.lonaf.com%2FphpBB2%2Fimages%2Fsmiles%2Fbeamcannon.gif&hash=a9fb014f083e720166314a36afde034c5a8fd7fb)
Quote from: Bickendan on August 10, 2010, 04:37:44 PM
Beamcannons are better. (https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fbickenland.lonaf.com%2FphpBB2%2Fimages%2Fsmiles%2Fbeamcannon.gif&hash=a9fb014f083e720166314a36afde034c5a8fd7fb)
That's so much overkill :evilgrin:
Quote from: Bickendan on August 10, 2010, 04:37:44 PM
Beamcannons are better. (https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fbickenland.lonaf.com%2FphpBB2%2Fimages%2Fsmiles%2Fbeamcannon.gif&hash=a9fb014f083e720166314a36afde034c5a8fd7fb)
Heh. It's Sigma's giant laser attack from Megaman X6 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uZqgJ5XlV-0#t=2m00s). :)
Guys - please stay on the topic. Its not about flashing brights - its about those slow drivers in the left lane.
Quote from: Master son on August 10, 2010, 09:45:19 PM
Guys - please stay on the topic. Its not about flashing brights - its about those slow drivers in the left lane.
... who need to have the brights flashed at them!
Quote from: Brandon on August 10, 2010, 11:35:19 AM
Quote from: agentsteel53 on August 10, 2010, 11:18:54 AM
Quote from: Brandon on August 10, 2010, 11:13:16 AM
I do this as well. It's amazing how the long haul truckers will work with you on the road when you're nice to them. Now the local gravel trucks on the other hand... :verymad:
is there a polite way to say "please do not jump in front of me, doing 62, to pass someone doing 60, when the speed limit is 75 and I am clearly coming up behind you doing 79"?
I believe it is as follows:
1. Roll down window.
2. Place arm out of window.
3. Extend the middle finger.
4. Hit the horn at the same time.
:pan:
:-D :-D :-D :clap: :clap: :clap: :spin: :spin: :spin:
I came up on a pair of dueling trucks on US 151 near Dodgeville (WI) and they basically had equal speeds at 65 mph. The one on the left slowly was inching forward - when suddenly the one on the right accelerated and the one on the left changed into the right lane behind it after about 5 miles of me and two other cars waiting behind the left truck. We promptly passed both trucks
I just had a slow turd in the left lane on my drive home on I-80. After 3 cars in front of me, then me, then 4 more cars passed him in the middle lane he finally took his head out of his ass and moved over. The car in front of me and I both cut him off badly after we passed him. That move will often wake people up, but not this inept moron.
^^ Yeah, that's the best way to do it, to get some folks attention. :-D
Be well,
Bryant
That's my goal. If not, scaring them works too lol
I tend to go 5 over or the flow of traffic no matter which lane I'm in; however, I keep a 3 second following distance, and I'll pass some vehicles that are in the right lane, but I'm not going to blatantly go 20 over the speed limit.
I do piss some drivers off, since I'm pretty frugal at not blocking intersections and keeping a decent following distance. At least whenever I stop at lights, I don't leave a gap wide enough for a freight train like some people do. According to the book, you're supposed to leave a car's length, but I leave like 2' between my bumper and the bumper in fromt of me.