Based on some recent discussion.
Bismarck, ND (https://goo.gl/maps/rQf7hyRm28Qh8oSB9)
Lots of enclaves, a weird exclave, particularly strange northern boundary.
Rehoboth Beach, DE (https://goo.gl/maps/opcvY6JGemk7KvNPA)
Seriously, what the hell is happening with that extremely narrow strip?
Portland, ME (https://goo.gl/maps/4DUnoN2j264E6DNM8)
This one is generally OK, except that for some reason there's over a dozen random islands that are in city limits, yet the I-295 bridge isn't. For example, this (https://goo.gl/maps/GVVDrRk6ujw9TEFL7) is in city limits.
More coming soon!
Quote from: kirbykart on October 04, 2022, 10:07:12 AM
Based on some recent discussion.
Bismarck, ND (https://goo.gl/maps/rQf7hyRm28Qh8oSB9)
What's so dumb about that?
https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=24669.0
IMHO, any seriously 'underbound' city has stupid 'dumb' city iimits.
Mike
Quote from: silverback1065 on October 04, 2022, 11:04:48 AM
Quote from: kirbykart on October 04, 2022, 10:07:12 AM
Based on some recent discussion.
Bismarck, ND (https://goo.gl/maps/rQf7hyRm28Qh8oSB9)
What's so dumb about that?
Five enclaves that I counted, a random exclave to the southwest, the northern border is particularly odd.
I was pressed for time writing the original post and didn't get to put in a whole lot of detail or examples. Now I can go edit!
Doesn't look all that bad. Here's my city:
https://goo.gl/maps/qBtL3Nci4cj7BPmC9 – Wichita, KS
Quote from: kphoger on October 04, 2022, 02:43:02 PM
Doesn't look all that bad. Here's my city:
https://goo.gl/maps/qBtL3Nci4cj7BPmC9 – Wichita, KS
:-o :-o :-o
YIKES!!!!!!
Quote from: kirbykart on October 04, 2022, 02:30:50 PM
a random exclave to the southwest
The "random exclave" is actually a city park with a parking lot, boat ramp, fish cleaning station, and restrooms.
Quote from: kirbykart on October 04, 2022, 02:45:57 PM
Quote from: kphoger on October 04, 2022, 02:43:02 PM
Doesn't look all that bad. Here's my city:
https://goo.gl/maps/qBtL3Nci4cj7BPmC9 – Wichita, KS
:-o :-o :-o
YIKES!!!!!!
And here's the town I lived in before I moved to Wichita:
https://goo.gl/maps/6dAD9nbHpbkv63vM7 – Herrin, IL
Nearby, of course, are the emoji-inducing city limits of
Marion, IL (https://goo.gl/maps/1s7q1GJhetTGmcuh9).
Egg Harbor Twp NJ is fully disconnected into two separate sections (ignore the broken areas in the bay area; that's just Google being Google). https://goo.gl/maps/N3QN6FroE69P3tY26
Quote from: kphoger on October 04, 2022, 02:49:17 PM
Quote from: kirbykart on October 04, 2022, 02:45:57 PM
Quote from: kphoger on October 04, 2022, 02:43:02 PM
Doesn't look all that bad. Here's my city:
https://goo.gl/maps/qBtL3Nci4cj7BPmC9 – Wichita, KS
:-o :-o :-o
YIKES!!!!!!
And here's the town I lived in before I moved to Wichita:
https://goo.gl/maps/6dAD9nbHpbkv63vM7 – Herrin, IL
Nearby, of course, are the emoji-inducing city limits of Marion, IL (https://goo.gl/maps/1s7q1GJhetTGmcuh9).
I get wanting city limits to be continuous, but why did Marion want to annex that area to the southeast in the first place if it was so far away?
Also my contribution to this thread: outlying Chicago suburbs like Joliet (https://goo.gl/maps/d29UdXYPKAKXMaes9) and New Lenox (https://goo.gl/maps/3nbdabaghmqXh4j39) seem to add bits to their city limits completely at random - New Lenox in particular looks like a drunkard's version of a checkerboard.
And in terms of unnecessarily large, the winner might be Bunnell, FL - https://goo.gl/maps/SAUDzxTEN6Xxpnbn7
Quote from: Indiana_Charter on October 04, 2022, 03:35:46 PM
I get wanting city limits to be continuous, but why did Marion want to annex that area to the southeast in the first place if it was so far away?
Here's your answer:
Quote from: SEWIGuy on January 09, 2018, 04:00:41 PM
The City of Marion purchased all the land around there to dam up the Creek for a new water reservoir. The permit was eventually denied but they are still holding all of the land.
https://www.fws.gov/FieldNotes/regmap.cfm?arskey=21944
http://www.carbondaletimes.com/news/20171229/marion-wraps-up-purchase-of-sugar-creek-started-in-1990s
Quote from: Indiana_Charter on October 04, 2022, 03:35:46 PM
Also my contribution to this thread: outlying Chicago suburbs like Joliet (https://goo.gl/maps/d29UdXYPKAKXMaes9) and New Lenox (https://goo.gl/maps/3nbdabaghmqXh4j39) seem to add bits to their city limits completely at random - New Lenox in particular looks like a drunkard's version of a checkerboard.
I was born in Joliet, and I spent my early childhood (1980s) in New Lenox. Back then, pretty much all of that "checkerboard" land south of Illinois Hwy was farmland. I have a distinct childhood memory of my dad and me driving around down there and Laraway Road being gravel. So I'm sure that, as farmers have sold to developers here and there, the city incorporated the land bit by bit.
You'll find plenty of dumb ones in Oklahoma.
Here's one that I just ran into the other day, so it's the first one I thought of. https://www.google.com/maps/place/Mulhall,+OK/@36.0879899,-97.4037697,13z/data=!4m5!3m4!1s0x87b1bfa5cd7fdbcb:0x4302b6510a5f7388!8m2!3d36.0647655!4d-97.4069867
Quote from: Scott5114 on October 04, 2022, 04:44:38 PM
You'll find plenty of dumb ones in Oklahoma.
Here's one that I just ran into the other day, so it's the first one I thought of. https://www.google.com/maps/place/Mulhall,+OK/@36.0879899,-97.4037697,13z/data=!4m5!3m4!1s0x87b1bfa5cd7fdbcb:0x4302b6510a5f7388!8m2!3d36.0647655!4d-97.4069867
Funny, as soon as I saw you were posting something from Oklahoma, my mind immediately went to nearby Orlando.
https://goo.gl/maps/AxbeJtfpBrfRyCub7
Olympia has some very silly boundaries, such as the jogs around the high school. https://goo.gl/maps/VTUcqmgTktmXoGjZ6
(https://i.imgur.com/uRUUwB4.png)
Quote from: kirbykart on October 04, 2022, 10:07:12 AM
Portland, ME (https://goo.gl/maps/4DUnoN2j264E6DNM8)
This one is generally OK, except that for some reason there's over a dozen random islands that are in city limits, yet the I-295 bridge isn't. For example, this (https://goo.gl/maps/GVVDrRk6ujw9TEFL7) is in city limits.
It seems pretty clear that only land is within city limits, and so, the I-295 bridge not being in the city is consistent with the water separating the islands from the mainland also not being in the city.
WOW... All my examples seem really tame by comparison now.
Quote from: Indiana_Charter on October 04, 2022, 03:35:46 PM
And in terms of unnecessarily large, the winner might be Bunnell, FL - https://goo.gl/maps/SAUDzxTEN6Xxpnbn7
That's just stupid. Why do the city limits need to include an entire wildlife refuge???
On Google Maps measuring tool I got the perimeter of this city to be roughly 105 miles.
Quote from: kirbykart on October 04, 2022, 06:03:36 PM
WOW... All my examples seem really tame by comparison now.
Quote from: Indiana_Charter on October 04, 2022, 03:35:46 PM
And in terms of unnecessarily large, the winner might be Bunnell, FL - https://goo.gl/maps/SAUDzxTEN6Xxpnbn7
That's just stupid. Why do the city limits need to include an entire wildlife refuge???
On Google Maps measuring tool I got the perimeter of this city to be roughly 105 miles.
Water resource managment or control/obstruction of development.
You guys do realize places like Layton are still incorporated cities in Florida?
Possibly the most ridiculous Illinois example yet- the capital, Springfield.
https://goo.gl/maps/m784ZG89Rz7h8CqB7 (https://goo.gl/maps/m784ZG89Rz7h8CqB7)
Quote from: kphoger on October 04, 2022, 04:56:27 PM
Funny, as soon as I saw you were posting something from Oklahoma, my mind immediately went to nearby Orlando.
https://goo.gl/maps/AxbeJtfpBrfRyCub7
And here I had a different Orlando (https://goo.gl/maps/gSVggFevPcNQid666) in mind.
My favorite example is Alvin, TX. (https://www.google.com/maps/place/Alvin,+TX/@29.2850587,-95.5996164,10z/data=!3m1!4b1!4m5!3m4!1s0x86405ef64ba505df:0x5994eb37447891c9!8m2!3d29.4238619!4d-95.2440834)
The village of Speculator NY (https://www.google.com/maps/place/Speculator,+NY/@43.6431447,-74.6131069,10.56z/data=!4m13!1m7!3m6!1s0x87badb6ad27f182d:0x9396d5bf74d33d3e!2sWichita,+KS!3b1!8m2!3d37.6871761!4d-97.330053!3m4!1s0x89df0dce75ed341b:0x8f1b788d8afaae5b!8m2!3d43.4972659!4d-74.3618202), in the Adirondacks, has an odd exclave.
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on October 04, 2022, 06:14:54 PM
Quote from: kirbykart on October 04, 2022, 06:03:36 PM
WOW... All my examples seem really tame by comparison now.
Quote from: Indiana_Charter on October 04, 2022, 03:35:46 PM
And in terms of unnecessarily large, the winner might be Bunnell, FL - https://goo.gl/maps/SAUDzxTEN6Xxpnbn7
That's just stupid. Why do the city limits need to include an entire wildlife refuge???
On Google Maps measuring tool I got the perimeter of this city to be roughly 105 miles.
Water resource managment or control/obstruction of development.
You guys do realize places like Layton are still incorporated cities in Florida?
Bunnell is trying to do everything it can to make sure the rest of Flagler County stays rural. Look at neighboring Palm Coast for why Bunnell is the size it is.
Quote from: kirbykart on October 04, 2022, 06:03:36 PM
WOW... All my examples seem really tame by comparison now.
Quote from: Indiana_Charter on October 04, 2022, 03:35:46 PM
And in terms of unnecessarily large, the winner might be Bunnell, FL - https://goo.gl/maps/SAUDzxTEN6Xxpnbn7
That's just stupid. Why do the city limits need to include an entire wildlife refuge???
On Google Maps measuring tool I got the perimeter of this city to be roughly 105 miles.
Suffolk, VA (as well as Chesapeake and Va Beach) are huge, having annexed the entire counties that they sat in (who's the VA guy ... froggie?). That was my understanding when I lived in Smithfield. Suffolk was Nansemond county, VA Beach was Princess Anne, and I forget what Chesapeake was.
Another dumb thing you see a lot of in Oklahoma is annexing a narrow pathway forming a ring (but being sure not to include any houses in it, as that risks annexing people with opinions on being annexed) to create defensive barriers to keep other nearby towns from getting too close.
Duncan (https://www.google.com/maps/place/Duncan,+OK/@34.5203389,-97.9101912,11.5z/data=!4m5!3m4!1s0x87ad594711ce42c5:0x8fd324982465e165!8m2!3d34.5023028!4d-97.9578128) is one such example (and also has a bunch of random lake exclaves, too).
A thread where those of us can flex our New England/Northeast USA superiority.
This thread also makes me think of Sandy, UT, which looks like swiss cheese, and White City. UT. White City's residents have this strange shoot-themselves-in-the-foot pride of staying independent. Their size and zoning means that their taxes will never be able to afford the infrastructure upgrades desperately needed to their water and sewage systems. Cross that border from Sandy into White City and the difference is obvious.
I can tell you that some of these are definitely a pain in the ass for our geographers.
How about city limits that continue to expand from the annexation of previously rural land? Two examples come to mind:
Charlotte, NC (https://www.google.com/maps/place/Charlotte,+NC/@35.2033533,-80.9799146,11z/data=!3m1!4b1!4m5!3m4!1s0x88541fc4fc381a81:0x884650e6bf43d164!8m2!3d35.2270939!4d-80.8431315)
Houston, TX (https://www.google.com/maps/place/Houston,+TX/@29.8174782,-95.6814852,10z/data=!3m1!4b1!4m5!3m4!1s0x8640b8b4488d8501:0xca0d02def365053b!8m2!3d29.7603539!4d-95.3697395)
And here's Raleigh
https://maps.app.goo.gl/F7cNyuUiTt9VMQ2M9
And Durham
https://maps.app.goo.gl/ku2cv7pqJkqPLFNQA
Quote from: zachary_amaryllis on October 05, 2022, 07:48:48 AM
Quote from: kirbykart on October 04, 2022, 06:03:36 PM
WOW... All my examples seem really tame by comparison now.
Quote from: Indiana_Charter on October 04, 2022, 03:35:46 PM
And in terms of unnecessarily large, the winner might be Bunnell, FL - https://goo.gl/maps/SAUDzxTEN6Xxpnbn7
That's just stupid. Why do the city limits need to include an entire wildlife refuge???
On Google Maps measuring tool I got the perimeter of this city to be roughly 105 miles.
Suffolk, VA (as well as Chesapeake and Va Beach) are huge, having annexed the entire counties that they sat in (who's the VA guy ... froggie?). That was my understanding when I lived in Smithfield. Suffolk was Nansemond county, VA Beach was Princess Anne, and I forget what Chesapeake was.
Chesapeake was Norfolk County and the city of South Norfolk merging. I describe Chesapeake as "several small communities connected by mutual sprawl" . On the other side of Hampton Roads, Newport News (Warwick) and Hampton (Elizabeth City) were also once counties that were absorbed by cities. Hampton was the first to do it of all of them.
Denver (https://www.google.com/maps/place/Denver,+CO/@39.7645187,-104.995197,11z/data=!3m1!4b1!4m5!3m4!1s0x876b80aa231f17cf:0x118ef4f8278a36d6!8m2!3d39.7392358!4d-104.990251) comes to mind for Colorado. They decided that the airport just had to be in the city limits.
Quote from: jlam on October 05, 2022, 01:23:35 PM
Denver (https://www.google.com/maps/place/Denver,+CO/@39.7645187,-104.995197,11z/data=!3m1!4b1!4m5!3m4!1s0x876b80aa231f17cf:0x118ef4f8278a36d6!8m2!3d39.7392358!4d-104.990251) comes to mind for Colorado. They decided that the airport just had to be in the city limits.
Chicago did the same thing with O'Hare (https://www.google.com/maps/place/Chicago,+IL/@41.973754,-87.8676838,12.25z/data=!4m5!3m4!1s0x880e2c3cd0f4cbed:0xafe0a6ad09c0c000!8m2!3d41.8781136!4d-87.6297982?hl=en)...if I'm not mistaken, the motivating factor in both cases was so the city governments could have control over the airports (and just as importantly, ensuring that tax $$$ go to the city!)
Quote from: Henry on October 05, 2022, 10:14:25 AM
How about city limits that continue to expand from the annexation of previously rural land? Two examples come to mind:
Charlotte, NC (https://www.google.com/maps/place/Charlotte,+NC/@35.2033533,-80.9799146,11z/data=!3m1!4b1!4m5!3m4!1s0x88541fc4fc381a81:0x884650e6bf43d164!8m2!3d35.2270939!4d-80.8431315)
Houston, TX (https://www.google.com/maps/place/Houston,+TX/@29.8174782,-95.6814852,10z/data=!3m1!4b1!4m5!3m4!1s0x8640b8b4488d8501:0xca0d02def365053b!8m2!3d29.7603539!4d-95.3697395)
Looks like Houston has done that ring thing Scott5114 was talking about in some areas.
Quote from: jlam on October 05, 2022, 01:23:35 PM
Denver (https://www.google.com/maps/place/Denver,+CO/@39.7645187,-104.995197,11z/data=!3m1!4b1!4m5!3m4!1s0x876b80aa231f17cf:0x118ef4f8278a36d6!8m2!3d39.7392358!4d-104.990251) comes to mind for Colorado. They decided that the airport just had to be in the city limits.
Broomfield, too.
The city limits of Reno are pretty odd. https://goo.gl/maps/rcxHYPbNcrrrGTxH7 (https://goo.gl/maps/rcxHYPbNcrrrGTxH7)
Quote from: jlam on October 05, 2022, 01:23:35 PM
Denver (https://www.google.com/maps/place/Denver,+CO/@39.7645187,-104.995197,11z/data=!3m1!4b1!4m5!3m4!1s0x876b80aa231f17cf:0x118ef4f8278a36d6!8m2!3d39.7392358!4d-104.990251) comes to mind for Colorado. They decided that the airport just had to be in the city limits.
It kind of makes sense for Denver's behavior to be derivative of Chicago's, given how many Chicagoans relocated there. The reach outward of Denver to include its airport reminds me of the stretch of Chicago's northwest side to include O'Hare's territory...but I don't think the Chicago annexation is quite as ridiculous.
I know Joliet's been mentioned already, but it's the most ridiculous territory shape I know of for a municipality. Like many other municipalities with ridiculous shape, the ridiculous shape is the result of shameless annexation techniques. Municipalities will extend out an arm, then strategize like you do in the game of Go: surround a piece of land with a narrow corridor, forming a hollow core. Then everything inside that hollow core is assumed to join the municipality once it's developed. It's all imperialistic geometry! It's not made to make sense; it's made to exert power.
What reasons do cities have for not annexing the land their airport is built on?
Quote from: kphoger on October 06, 2022, 04:43:45 PM
What reasons do cities have for not annexing the land their airport is built on?
I'm going to go out way far on a limb here, but I think that the reason Charleston never annexed what's now known as Yeager Airport is that it forces the entirety of Kanawha County to pay for services to the airport. That actually paid out big-time back in 2013, when the Obama administration shutdown the National Guard program nationwide. Kanawha County famously voted to pay to keep the Air National Guard working at Yeager Airport. I'm not sure that they ever got reimbursed by the Federal government, and if they are like many folks in West Virginia, they would have been deeply offended by such repayment. Not something that the City of Charleston could deal with, either financially or politically.
But in the meantime, Yeager Airport creates this "notch" in the shape of the city limits. Somewhere in the future, the airport will probably become an exclave of the county within the surrounding city limits.
While I'm thinking about it, Charleston used to have a very unusual shape. By the end of the 19th Century, the city had annexed westward along the Kanawha River on the West Side and into North Charleston (all on the north side of the Kanawha River), as well as into the South Hills on the south side of the Kanawha River. Then in 1929, the town of Kanawha City was merged into Charleston, and further growth continued [southward] along the Kanawha River. So essentially, the city limits was a "blob" consisting of Downtown and the Southside, with a spiral west on the north side of the river and a spiral southeastward on the south side of the river. Those arms were much longer than the blob was wide.
(Sadly, none of the maps that I could find online do a good job of separating the cities of Charleston and South Charleston, but if I find one I will try to post it).
Quote from: kphoger on October 06, 2022, 04:43:45 PM
What reasons do cities have for not annexing the land their airport is built on?
Everett has yet to annex Paine Field as it is cheaper to leave it in the county's hands (since they own/operate the airport anyway).
EDIT: And speaking of Everett, the city has an exclave with no people out in the Cascades. It's the city-owned drinking water supply, which is also used by much of the county.
(https://i.imgur.com/K7f8PCY.jpeg)
Louisville Kentucky
That tiny strip of Cincinnati that goes way west along the Ohio River makes no sense. Why not just annex all of Delhi Township then?
Look at Charleston, SC. You need a GIS and GPS to tell if you are in the city or not.
https://www.google.com/maps/place/Charleston,+SC/@32.8413246,-79.9049924,11z/data=!4m5!3m4!1s0x88fe7a42dca82477:0x35faf7e0aee1ec6b!8m2!3d32.7764749!4d-79.9310512 (https://www.google.com/maps/place/Charleston,+SC/@32.8413246,-79.9049924,11z/data=!4m5!3m4!1s0x88fe7a42dca82477:0x35faf7e0aee1ec6b!8m2!3d32.7764749!4d-79.9310512)
If you look closely at a map, the City of Dallas owns the entirety of Lake Ray Hubbard. They annexed the entire future lake property in the late 1950s (up to a point – still trying to pinpoint the exact definition) which means Dallas extends into five counties – Dallas, Collin, Denton, Rockwall and Kaufman.
Hibbing, MN- 16,000 people with almost 200 square miles of land in the city limits...
Neighboring cities would be smart to reach agreements with each other to set future boundaries. I know this happens in Texas, where state law provides for "extraterritorial jurisdiction" for unincorporated areas outside city limits. Good fences make good neighbors.
https://www.google.com/maps/place/Marion,+IL/@37.6722597,-88.9854781,12z/data=!3m1!4b1!4m5!3m4!1s0x887730a35544a335:0xf8c8996b28ceb58f!8m2!3d37.7306066!4d-88.9331245
this is a gem :-D i guess the random part south is an important piece of infrastructure
Quote from: paulthemapguy on October 06, 2022, 04:18:13 PM
Quote from: jlam on October 05, 2022, 01:23:35 PM
Denver (https://www.google.com/maps/place/Denver,+CO/@39.7645187,-104.995197,11z/data=!3m1!4b1!4m5!3m4!1s0x876b80aa231f17cf:0x118ef4f8278a36d6!8m2!3d39.7392358!4d-104.990251) comes to mind for Colorado. They decided that the airport just had to be in the city limits.
It kind of makes sense for Denver's behavior to be derivative of Chicago's, given how many Chicagoans relocated there. The reach outward of Denver to include its airport reminds me of the stretch of Chicago's northwest side to include O'Hare's territory...but I don't think the Chicago annexation is quite as ridiculous.
Of course, among those former Chicagoans living in Denver would be my brother Jeff.
Quote from: Avalanchez71 on October 06, 2022, 11:49:06 PM
Look at Charleston, SC. You need a GIS and GPS to tell if you are in the city or not.
https://www.google.com/maps/place/Charleston,+SC/@32.8413246,-79.9049924,11z/data=!4m5!3m4!1s0x88fe7a42dca82477:0x35faf7e0aee1ec6b!8m2!3d32.7764749!4d-79.9310512 (https://www.google.com/maps/place/Charleston,+SC/@32.8413246,-79.9049924,11z/data=!4m5!3m4!1s0x88fe7a42dca82477:0x35faf7e0aee1ec6b!8m2!3d32.7764749!4d-79.9310512)
My favorite part is this bit here: https://goo.gl/maps/DgijGokDsQxx1JZLA
Quote from: kphoger on October 04, 2022, 02:49:17 PM
... the emoji-inducing city limits of Marion, IL (https://goo.gl/maps/1s7q1GJhetTGmcuh9).
Quote from: silverback1065 on October 07, 2022, 10:00:38 AM
https://www.google.com/maps/place/Marion,+IL/@37.6722597,-88.9854781,12z/data=!3m1!4b1!4m5!3m4!1s0x887730a35544a335:0xf8c8996b28ceb58f!8m2!3d37.7306066!4d-88.9331245
this is a gem :-D i guess the random part south is an important piece of infrastructure
Thank you for proving me right. :awesomeface:
Quote from: Road Hog on October 07, 2022, 12:37:52 AM
Neighboring cities would be smart to reach agreements with each other to set future boundaries. I know this happens in Texas, where state law provides for "extraterritorial jurisdiction" for unincorporated areas outside city limits. Good fences make good neighbors.
Same thing in North Carolina. When I lived in Apex, it was annexing piecemeal within their ETJ, part of which was based on an agreement with Cary over who would annex what. IIRC, some of the other agreements are based on where the water mains are.
I think there are a lot of midwestern cities that are too big for what they should be. cities like Indianapolis are too big for what they should be. Unigov worked well to attract a lot of development downtown, but now the sheer size of Indianapolis is a liability from a funding standpoint. too large an area and not enough tax base to truly fill the needs of the city. the limits aren't "dumb" just not working anymore from a funding standpoint.
Quote from: silverback1065 on October 07, 2022, 12:20:28 PM
I think there are a lot of midwestern cities that are too big for what they should be. cities like Indianapolis are too big for what they should be. Unigov worked well to attract a lot of development downtown, but now the sheer size of Indianapolis is a liability from a funding standpoint. too large an area and not enough tax base to truly fill the needs of the city. the limits aren't "dumb" just not working anymore from a funding standpoint.
That isn't an understatement either. Cities like Jacksonville are a prime example of this. I think Columbus, Ohio is another city like this.
How about Anchorage (AK), which includes nearly the entirety of a state park? Its municipal limits come to more than 1900 square miles.
Quote from: kphoger on October 07, 2022, 12:30:01 PM
How about Anchorage (AK), which includes nearly the entirety of a state park? Its municipal limits come to more than 1900 square miles.
That one isn't an understatement either and I was thinking of it because I knew how big Anchorage is in area. But Alaska is so huge that I would expect it's largest city to cover a vast area. Juneau is crazy like that too. It's just strange seeing cities that are the roughly the same size in area as Michigan's largest county in land area (Marquette). Keweenaw is the largest but most of it is submerged by Lake Superior.
Quote from: Flint1979 on October 07, 2022, 12:23:51 PM
Quote from: silverback1065 on October 07, 2022, 12:20:28 PM
I think there are a lot of midwestern cities that are too big for what they should be. cities like Indianapolis are too big for what they should be. Unigov worked well to attract a lot of development downtown, but now the sheer size of Indianapolis is a liability from a funding standpoint. too large an area and not enough tax base to truly fill the needs of the city. the limits aren't "dumb" just not working anymore from a funding standpoint.
That isn't an understatement either. Cities like Jacksonville are a prime example of this. I think Columbus, Ohio is another city like this.
jacksonville did the same thing, consolidated with the county. it seems like this almost always creates a massive cash boon at the start, then decades later a cash crunch.
Quote from: silverback1065 on October 07, 2022, 12:38:15 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on October 07, 2022, 12:23:51 PM
Quote from: silverback1065 on October 07, 2022, 12:20:28 PM
I think there are a lot of midwestern cities that are too big for what they should be. cities like Indianapolis are too big for what they should be. Unigov worked well to attract a lot of development downtown, but now the sheer size of Indianapolis is a liability from a funding standpoint. too large an area and not enough tax base to truly fill the needs of the city. the limits aren't "dumb" just not working anymore from a funding standpoint.
That isn't an understatement either. Cities like Jacksonville are a prime example of this. I think Columbus, Ohio is another city like this.
jacksonville did the same thing, consolidated with the county. it seems like this almost always creates a massive cash boon at the start, then decades later a cash crunch.
Yeah none of those make much sense to me. Michigan doesn't have any cities like that so it always seems strange to me when I'm entering one of those counties and I'm actually in the city even though it feels nothing like the city.
Quote from: kphoger on October 07, 2022, 12:30:01 PM
How about Anchorage (AK), which includes nearly the entirety of a state park? Its municipal limits come to more than 1900 square miles.
Wow. That is bigger than the entire state of Rhode Island. By a lot.
Quote from: kphoger on October 07, 2022, 10:50:05 AM
Quote from: Avalanchez71 on October 06, 2022, 11:49:06 PM
Look at Charleston, SC. You need a GIS and GPS to tell if you are in the city or not.
https://www.google.com/maps/place/Charleston,+SC/@32.8413246,-79.9049924,11z/data=!4m5!3m4!1s0x88fe7a42dca82477:0x35faf7e0aee1ec6b!8m2!3d32.7764749!4d-79.9310512 (https://www.google.com/maps/place/Charleston,+SC/@32.8413246,-79.9049924,11z/data=!4m5!3m4!1s0x88fe7a42dca82477:0x35faf7e0aee1ec6b!8m2!3d32.7764749!4d-79.9310512)
My favorite part is this bit here: https://goo.gl/maps/DgijGokDsQxx1JZLA
Quote from: kphoger on October 04, 2022, 02:49:17 PM
... the emoji-inducing city limits of Marion, IL (https://goo.gl/maps/1s7q1GJhetTGmcuh9).
Quote from: silverback1065 on October 07, 2022, 10:00:38 AM
https://www.google.com/maps/place/Marion,+IL/@37.6722597,-88.9854781,12z/data=!3m1!4b1!4m5!3m4!1s0x887730a35544a335:0xf8c8996b28ceb58f!8m2!3d37.7306066!4d-88.9331245
this is a gem :-D i guess the random part south is an important piece of infrastructure
Thank you for proving me right. :awesomeface:
I believe with Marion, IL, that the city anticipated development in the area due to the lake and they annexed that area.
Quote from: kphoger on October 04, 2022, 03:38:06 PM
Quote from: Indiana_Charter on October 04, 2022, 03:35:46 PM
I get wanting city limits to be continuous, but why did Marion want to annex that area to the southeast in the first place if it was so far away?
Here's your answer:
Quote from: SEWIGuy on January 09, 2018, 04:00:41 PM
The City of Marion purchased all the land around there to dam up the Creek for a new water reservoir. The permit was eventually denied but they are still holding all of the land.
https://www.fws.gov/FieldNotes/regmap.cfm?arskey=21944
http://www.carbondaletimes.com/news/20171229/marion-wraps-up-purchase-of-sugar-creek-started-in-1990s
Quote from: Avalanchez71 on October 07, 2022, 02:40:33 PM
I believe with Marion, IL, that the city anticipated development in the area due to the lake and they annexed that area.
See above.
In North Central PA (Elk County), the (formerly) borough of St. Mary's annexed (or whatever term is best for what it achieved) the neighboring township.
It did create the 2nd largest city in the state of Pennsylvania by size (square mileage/acreage/whatever). It is, of course, nowhere near the 2nd largest in terms of population (maybe if you counted bear & deer)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/St._Marys,_Pennsylvania
Quote from: silverback1065 on October 07, 2022, 12:38:15 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on October 07, 2022, 12:23:51 PM
Quote from: silverback1065 on October 07, 2022, 12:20:28 PM
I think there are a lot of midwestern cities that are too big for what they should be. cities like Indianapolis are too big for what they should be. Unigov worked well to attract a lot of development downtown, but now the sheer size of Indianapolis is a liability from a funding standpoint. too large an area and not enough tax base to truly fill the needs of the city. the limits aren't "dumb" just not working anymore from a funding standpoint.
That isn't an understatement either. Cities like Jacksonville are a prime example of this. I think Columbus, Ohio is another city like this.
jacksonville did the same thing, consolidated with the county. it seems like this almost always creates a massive cash boon at the start, then decades later a cash crunch.
I don't think that's been a problem with the cities in SE Virginia. Virginia Beach, Chesapeake, Suffolk, and Newport News all annexed/consolidated with their counties (Princess Anne, Norfolk, Nansemond, and Warwick) and have all been better for it. The metro population has leveled off some but it's mostly the old urban cores that have been hurting and those are in Norfolk, Hampton, and Portsmouth.
I think the Census Bureau's city boundaries aren't always perfectly accurate. They're close, and they might be the most accurate boundaries we can find. But I think sometimes they're off by a tiny bit, especially when they show cities with tiny exclaves in states that do not allow exclaves.
Quote from: silverback1065 on October 07, 2022, 12:20:28 PM
I think there are a lot of midwestern cities that are too big for what they should be. cities like Indianapolis are too big for what they should be. Unigov worked well to attract a lot of development downtown, but now the sheer size of Indianapolis is a liability from a funding standpoint. too large an area and not enough tax base to truly fill the needs of the city. the limits aren't "dumb" just not working anymore from a funding standpoint.
I agree that Indianapolis and Columbus are a bit too big Indianapolis especially. But I could also make the case there are some midwestern cities that are smaller and more compact and should be bigger to be more representative of the size of their metro areas like Cleveland, Minneapolis, St Louis and to a lesser degree Detroit.
Any city that looks like Swiss cheese or has a "wall" in any form is ridiculous by New England standards.
Quote from: 1 on October 07, 2022, 08:17:55 PM
Any city that looks like Swiss cheese or has a "wall" in any form is ridiculous by New England standards.
Cities in other environs just don't work in the same way as New England. In Massachusetts, Connecticut, Rhode Island, most of New Hampshire and Vermont, every square inch of territory is incorporated as a municipality. Whether it be charted as a town or city. Therefore with that type of environment there is no opportunity for swiss cheese annexations without extreme circumstances. The aforementioned states still have annexation opportunities, but nothing like a state that has unincorporated territory to consider.
Quote from: dvferyance on October 07, 2022, 08:06:11 PM
Quote from: silverback1065 on October 07, 2022, 12:20:28 PM
I think there are a lot of midwestern cities that are too big for what they should be. cities like Indianapolis are too big for what they should be. Unigov worked well to attract a lot of development downtown, but now the sheer size of Indianapolis is a liability from a funding standpoint. too large an area and not enough tax base to truly fill the needs of the city. the limits aren't "dumb" just not working anymore from a funding standpoint.
I agree that Indianapolis and Columbus are a bit too big Indianapolis especially. But I could also make the case there are some midwestern cities that are smaller and more compact and should be bigger to be more representative of the size of their metro areas like Cleveland, Minneapolis, St Louis and to a lesser degree Detroit.
Those cities are pretty much maxed out as far as annexing land goes. Detroit for example is surrounded by cities and and also has Redford Township to the west which they can't annex anymore of. This is why Hamtramck and Highland Park are completely surrounded by Detroit's city limits.
The City of Madison's western boundary could be considered in the "swiss cheese" category. Especially, for a core city, its size: https://goo.gl/maps/RVx86SQHpt3Nsm45A
(I believe there are not any township-city merger agreements on the west side, unlike Madtown's east and south limits.)
IMHO, the worst example of an 'underbound' city that I know of is not in the USA, but the City of London, England (UK).The actual 'city' covers a microscopic part of its urbanized metro area, with the rest being suburbs of some sort or another.
In the USA, cities like that include York and State College, PA.
To me, the best part of a city's corporate limits covering all the city's urbanized area (and then some) is that everyone in the area will have a say in how it is governed at the local level, being able to vote in elections for mayor and city council.
Mike
Quote from: kirbykart on October 04, 2022, 10:07:12 AM
More coming soon!
Here you are!Saranac Lake, NY (https://maps.app.goo.gl/U6MWCZmL4TULAuAM7) has a strange extension to the northeast. You might think this is to get the Water Plant in village limits, but the extension doesn't even encompass the plant!
And here's Shelby, Montana (https://goo.gl/maps/CuBs8qDWCwSB1VmH9). Presented without further comment.
Quote from: jlam on October 05, 2022, 01:23:35 PM
Denver (https://www.google.com/maps/place/Denver,+CO/@39.7645187,-104.995197,11z/data=!3m1!4b1!4m5!3m4!1s0x876b80aa231f17cf:0x118ef4f8278a36d6!8m2!3d39.7392358!4d-104.990251) comes to mind for Colorado. They decided that the airport just had to be in the city limits.
I think the futuristic baggage system that never worked, should be reactivated as a roller-coaster.
Quote from: Rothman on October 05, 2022, 08:51:35 PM
Quote from: jlam on October 05, 2022, 01:23:35 PM
Denver (https://www.google.com/maps/place/Denver,+CO/@39.7645187,-104.995197,11z/data=!3m1!4b1!4m5!3m4!1s0x876b80aa231f17cf:0x118ef4f8278a36d6!8m2!3d39.7392358!4d-104.990251) comes to mind for Colorado. They decided that the airport just had to be in the city limits.
Broomfield, too.
Broomfield, before it became a city/county, was in 4 different counties. A really small piece of it was in Weld county, and they had to drive to Greeley to do car registration and such.
Denver's airport is bigger than both San Francisco and Boston in land area.
Quote from: dvferyance on October 07, 2022, 08:06:11 PM
Quote from: silverback1065 on October 07, 2022, 12:20:28 PM
I think there are a lot of midwestern cities that are too big for what they should be. cities like Indianapolis are too big for what they should be. Unigov worked well to attract a lot of development downtown, but now the sheer size of Indianapolis is a liability from a funding standpoint. too large an area and not enough tax base to truly fill the needs of the city. the limits aren't "dumb" just not working anymore from a funding standpoint.
I agree that Indianapolis and Columbus are a bit too big Indianapolis especially. But I could also make the case there are some midwestern cities that are smaller and more compact and should be bigger to be more representative of the size of their metro areas like Cleveland, Minneapolis, St Louis and to a lesser degree Detroit.
Minneapolis, Cleveland, and even Atlanta are actually smaller than one would expect, due to land area. But they all are the focal hubs of very big metropolitan areas.
Columbus, Indianapolis and Jacksonville are examples of cities that grew massively due to annexing neighboring suburbs and accumulating lots of square footage. I'm sure both Columbus and Jacksonville pride themselves on being the most populous cities of their own states, but it's quite easier when there's plenty of land to play with. However, suburbs are factored in to the size of metropolitan areas.
As for Detroit, they've got plenty of land. However, decades ago, they threw all their eggs into the auto industry bucket. They got huge! But, when the car industry crashed, the people left. As a result, Detroit has only a fraction of their peak population and a ton of deserted land that they don't know what to do with.
Quote from: FightingIrish on October 15, 2022, 10:01:47 PM
Quote from: dvferyance on October 07, 2022, 08:06:11 PM
Quote from: silverback1065 on October 07, 2022, 12:20:28 PM
I think there are a lot of midwestern cities that are too big for what they should be. cities like Indianapolis are too big for what they should be. Unigov worked well to attract a lot of development downtown, but now the sheer size of Indianapolis is a liability from a funding standpoint. too large an area and not enough tax base to truly fill the needs of the city. the limits aren't "dumb" just not working anymore from a funding standpoint.
I agree that Indianapolis and Columbus are a bit too big Indianapolis especially. But I could also make the case there are some midwestern cities that are smaller and more compact and should be bigger to be more representative of the size of their metro areas like Cleveland, Minneapolis, St Louis and to a lesser degree Detroit.
Minneapolis, Cleveland, and even Atlanta are actually smaller than one would expect, due to land area. But they all are the focal hubs of very big metropolitan areas.
Columbus, Indianapolis and Jacksonville are examples of cities that grew massively due to annexing neighboring suburbs and accumulating lots of square footage. I'm sure both Columbus and Jacksonville pride themselves on being the most populous cities of their own states, but it's quite easier when there's plenty of land to play with. However, suburbs are factored in to the size of metropolitan areas.
As for Detroit, they've got plenty of land. However, decades ago, they threw all their eggs into the auto industry bucket. They got huge! But, when the car industry crashed, the people left. As a result, Detroit has only a fraction of their peak population and a ton of deserted land that they don't know what to do with.
Detroit was declining well before the auto industry crashed. Detroit was never going to annex anymore land anyway due to being landlocked by suburbs and an International border. It's 138 square miles that's a pretty good size for a city, pretty close to the same square mileage as Philadelphia. Detroit's metro population is about the same it's been the last 50 years so the people are still in the area. Crime and a dysfunctional city council led to people leaving Detroit. The years that Coleman Young was mayor of Detroit were some of the worst years in the city's history.
Speaking of Detroit, I spotted this link who talk about the enclaves of Highland Park and Hamtramck.
https://wdet.org/2014/09/19/why-do-hamtramck-and-highland-park-exist-inside-the-city-of-detroit/
https://detroitography.com/2013/07/29/map-of-detroit-land-annexation-1806-1926/
Here a map showing the township of Hamtramck, circa 1891 https://www.loc.gov/resource/g4113wm.gla00096/?sp=22 along with another one of 1876.
http://www.historicmapworks.com/Map/US/72968/Hamtramck+Township,+Detroit+River,+Leesville+P.O.,+Norris,+Belle+Isle/
Had the city of Hamtramck had kept the same city limits as the former township and if Highland Park had taken more of Greenfield township (or Greenfield incorporated into its own municipality). Eight Mile Road would have get a less symbolic image of division.
IMHO, one of the City of Detroit's most major systemic issues is that so incredibly much of the city's land area was developed as single-family residential through the first half of the 20th century. Due those myriad of factors later on, the market for that close in dingle-family residential totally tanked in the later-mid 20th century. Now the city has all of this vacant land 'close in' and as people with direct memories of those 'bad old days' keep passing on, all of this 'close in' land will be discovered by the younger crowd, ripe for the picking. We are starting to see this today in the development interest in the close to downtown neighborhood areas.
Mike
Quote from: Stephane Dumas on October 16, 2022, 09:39:30 AM
Speaking of Detroit, I spotted this link who talk about the enclaves of Highland Park and Hamtramck.
https://wdet.org/2014/09/19/why-do-hamtramck-and-highland-park-exist-inside-the-city-of-detroit/
https://detroitography.com/2013/07/29/map-of-detroit-land-annexation-1806-1926/
Here a map showing the township of Hamtramck, circa 1891 https://www.loc.gov/resource/g4113wm.gla00096/?sp=22 along with another one of 1876.
http://www.historicmapworks.com/Map/US/72968/Hamtramck+Township,+Detroit+River,+Leesville+P.O.,+Norris,+Belle+Isle/
Had the city of Hamtramck had kept the same city limits as the former township and if Highland Park had taken more of Greenfield township (or Greenfield incorporated into its own municipality). Eight Mile Road would have get a less symbolic image of division.
The townships aren't part of the city so Highland Park and Hamtramck were in Detroit's way of annexing land as they were already cities and Detroit couldn't annex another city.
Quote from: Flint1979 on October 16, 2022, 02:11:49 PM
Quote from: Stephane Dumas on October 16, 2022, 09:39:30 AM
Speaking of Detroit, I spotted this link who talk about the enclaves of Highland Park and Hamtramck.
https://wdet.org/2014/09/19/why-do-hamtramck-and-highland-park-exist-inside-the-city-of-detroit/
https://detroitography.com/2013/07/29/map-of-detroit-land-annexation-1806-1926/
Here a map showing the township of Hamtramck, circa 1891 https://www.loc.gov/resource/g4113wm.gla00096/?sp=22 along with another one of 1876.
http://www.historicmapworks.com/Map/US/72968/Hamtramck+Township,+Detroit+River,+Leesville+P.O.,+Norris,+Belle+Isle/
Had the city of Hamtramck had kept the same city limits as the former township and if Highland Park had taken more of Greenfield township (or Greenfield incorporated into its own municipality). Eight Mile Road would have get a less symbolic image of division.
The townships aren't part of the city so Highland Park and Hamtramck were in Detroit's way of annexing land as they were already cities and Detroit couldn't annex another city.
I would not be surprised if Detroit does ultimately take in Highland Park once H.P.'s decline is complete. My understanding is that not all that long ago, Detroit turned down H.P.'s desire to join them due to H.P. being in too bad of a declining condition. My expectation is that if that were to happen, it will not be until after many/most of us are long gone and forgotten.
Nike
Quote from: mgk920 on October 16, 2022, 05:34:33 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on October 16, 2022, 02:11:49 PM
Quote from: Stephane Dumas on October 16, 2022, 09:39:30 AM
Speaking of Detroit, I spotted this link who talk about the enclaves of Highland Park and Hamtramck.
https://wdet.org/2014/09/19/why-do-hamtramck-and-highland-park-exist-inside-the-city-of-detroit/
https://detroitography.com/2013/07/29/map-of-detroit-land-annexation-1806-1926/
Here a map showing the township of Hamtramck, circa 1891 https://www.loc.gov/resource/g4113wm.gla00096/?sp=22 along with another one of 1876.
http://www.historicmapworks.com/Map/US/72968/Hamtramck+Township,+Detroit+River,+Leesville+P.O.,+Norris,+Belle+Isle/
Had the city of Hamtramck had kept the same city limits as the former township and if Highland Park had taken more of Greenfield township (or Greenfield incorporated into its own municipality). Eight Mile Road would have get a less symbolic image of division.
The townships aren't part of the city so Highland Park and Hamtramck were in Detroit's way of annexing land as they were already cities and Detroit couldn't annex another city.
I would not be surprised if Detroit does ultimately take in Highland Park once H.P.'s decline is complete. My understanding is that not all that long ago, Detroit turned down H.P.'s desire to join them due to H.P. being in too bad of a declining condition. My expectation is that if that were to happen, it will not be until after many/most of us are long gone and forgotten.
Nike
I doubt Detroit would want to take that on since they have enough of their own problems. That's a smart move on Detroit's part, why would Detroit want to take in more land that is basically the same as the rest of the city?
Well, that was then, but once H.P. has completed its decline and is essentially nothing more than all vacant, open, undeveloped land, it will be a raw greenfield area with no immediate downside.
mike
Quote from: mgk920 on October 16, 2022, 06:22:16 PM
Well, that was then, but once H.P. has completed its decline and is essentially nothing more than all vacant, open, undeveloped land, it will be a raw greenfield area with no immediate downside.
Except for the need for services, with no tax base to pay for them.
If Highland Park were to unincorporate as a city, it would be up to Wayne County to take over government functions. It would go back to general township governance.
Quote from: mgk920 on October 16, 2022, 06:22:16 PM
Well, that was then, but once H.P. has completed its decline and is essentially nothing more than all vacant, open, undeveloped land, it will be a raw greenfield area with no immediate downside.
mike
I don't see Highland Park completely emptying out it still has about 8,000-9,000 people. Back in 1950 when Detroit was at it's peak Highland Park was already declining and had around 46,000 people so it has indeed emptied out quite a bit but still has active people. Highland Park lost it's tax base when Chrysler relocated from there to Auburn Hills in the 90's. Chrysler had 25% of the cities tax base and contributed to 50% of the cities budget and had about 5,000 employees in the city, once they lost that tax base put it where it is today. But then again something could happen and Highland Park could become a viable place again we will see or maybe we won't.
And Michigan has made it difficult to annex land for cities. We have charter townships which are mostly exempt from annexation from cities or villages. A village though remains part of the township that it is in, sometimes multiple townships. There are however certain situations where a charter township isn't exempt from annexation but it's mainly to fill in islands of townships or by a vote.
Btw, Highland Park became a city for the reason that you guys are arguing against it and that was to prevent Detroit from annexing it.
Too bad we can't check out any of this stuff on Google Street View, since it's broken now.
Quote from: bandit957 on October 16, 2022, 07:32:12 PM
Too bad we can't check out any of this stuff on Google Street View, since it's broken now.
It was broken for me for a good long while today, but seems to be fixed now.
You know the fact that the Highland Appliance store in Highland Park still has it's signage up is incredible. Highland has been out of business for at least 30 years and this has remained on Woodward Avenue since.
https://www.google.com/maps/@42.405497,-83.0969182,3a,50.6y,257.11h,96.53t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sOoDFSWmQ30aFDZKLZWwCzA!2e0!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fpanoid%3DOoDFSWmQ30aFDZKLZWwCzA%26cb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile.gps%26w%3D203%26h%3D100%26yaw%3D145.07726%26pitch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100!7i16384!8i8192
Quote from: Flint1979 on October 16, 2022, 10:45:32 PM
You know the fact that the Highland Appliance store in Highland Park still has it's signage up is incredible. Highland has been out of business for at least 30 years and this has remained on Woodward Avenue since.
https://www.google.com/maps/@42.405497,-83.0969182,3a,50.6y,257.11h,96.53t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sOoDFSWmQ30aFDZKLZWwCzA!2e0!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fpanoid%3DOoDFSWmQ30aFDZKLZWwCzA%26cb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile.gps%26w%3D203%26h%3D100%26yaw%3D145.07726%26pitch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100!7i16384!8i8192
There was a gas station near here that was like that.
Quote from: Flint1979 on October 16, 2022, 10:45:32 PM
You know the fact that the Highland Appliance store in Highland Park still has it's signage up is incredible. Highland has been out of business for at least 30 years and this has remained on Woodward Avenue since.
https://www.google.com/maps/@42.405497,-83.0969182,3a,50.6y,257.11h,96.53t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sOoDFSWmQ30aFDZKLZWwCzA!2e0!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fpanoid%3DOoDFSWmQ30aFDZKLZWwCzA%26cb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile.gps%26w%3D203%26h%3D100%26yaw%3D145.07726%26pitch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100!7i16384!8i8192
What's so incredible? Lots of businesses everywhere close down and don't remove their signage. This one will probably remain until someone else occupies the building or it is torn down.
But it still evokes memories of their great radio commercials:
"Today, thousands of people will shop Highland Appliance. But who and why? Let's find out. Your name and what do you do?"
"Butch Padorsky. I'm a bully."
"A bully?"
"Yeah. You wanna make something of it? Huh? HUH?"...
Quote from: Flint1979 on October 15, 2022, 12:42:03 PM
Denver's airport is bigger than both San Francisco and Boston in land area.
I seem to remember a debacle that happened the first time it snowed after DIA opened. It was something to the effect that no one knew who was supposed to plow Pena Blvd.
Quote from: zachary_amaryllis on October 17, 2022, 02:37:32 AM
Quote from: Flint1979 on October 15, 2022, 12:42:03 PM
Denver's airport is bigger than both San Francisco and Boston in land area.
I seem to remember a debacle that happened the first time it snowed after DIA opened. It was something to the effect that no one knew who was supposed to plow Pena Blvd.
Only one of many debacles after it opened. See also its automated luggage system...