Been always wondering about the distances on each mileage signs for interstates.
I noticed here in Florida the points on the sign reference the distance to either the downtown area or the epicenter of the said community.
In PA I noticed that it's to the exit and omits the travel between the freeways to the center. Problem with that is when the city center is several miles past the exit. For example on I-78 EB in Easton, PA you have the mileage sign there state 4 miles to Phillipsburg when in reality ( via road from there that is) it's 8 miles. The 4 miles in question is to Exit 3 in NJ that is the signed exit for Phillipsburg. Once you exit you have to travel 4 miles west to reach Downtown Phillipsburg.
Then in NJ the latest mileage signs list distance to the municipality proper. Meaning border the route first enters the said town or city. Originally the Garden State had used centers of the communities and still some of the older signs list ( or copied) the former specs. In some instances the old and the new signs list the distances for the different parts of town resulting in distances conflicting each other.
Perfect example is two mileage signs on US 46 in the Hackettstown area. The one westbound at NJ 182 reads that the Delaware Water Gap is 25 miles https://goo.gl/maps/SuVmnHYrgn6ibcrq9
Then travel west further almost 2 miles and you only lose one whole mile as past the Independence Township Line the sign at the 20.5 mm is stating 24 miles to the Gap. The first one near mm 22 was added in 1997 and part of the new campaign while the one in Great Meadows was there for ages. The former lists to the PA State line where the border for Delaware Water Gap ( Village not the gap itself) is and the latter to the town center beyond the entry point.
I am guessing it's up to the state of how and where to measure such distances.
I'd rather the distance actually be measured to the town, maybe not the center but just the town limits would be good. I don't think many states do it this way though.
I'd prefer the mileage be to the center of town. However, that gets weird if the route doesn't actually go to the center of town.
Honestly, I'd rather have to the city limit. If you're in like, the East Side neighborhood, you are still in Chicago even though it's far from the city center. I feel like it would be accurate for more people too, because not everyone is trying to hit a city center.
Plus, it wouldn't make any sense to see mileage signs for a city you are already in.
I don't typically see mileage signs to a town I'm already in, though...
I'd like to know what IDOT (and WisDOT, INDOT, etc.) use for Chicago. Is it downtown or city limits? I'm guessing it's downtown based on the distances I usually see but I haven't tried measuring it for myself. It obviously would make a huge difference in a case like this.
Maybe the right distance to use is more of a case-by-case basis. If it's a small town, just mark down where the exit is, even if the town itself is a few miles off the highway.
I am pretty sure the MUTCD contains language specifying town center.
And indeed, using the city center is the only way to keep it standardized. City limits are a bad idea because some cities don't extend much past their downtown area at all, while others include vast tracts of land around them that would usually be independent suburb municipalities. If I'm going to someplace in Jacksonville and taking I-10 east there, the point where I enter Duval County (and thus Jacksonville city limits) is a hell of a lot sooner than anywhere I'd be going.
Quote from: JoePCool14 on October 13, 2022, 05:03:50 PM
I'd like to know what IDOT (and WisDOT, INDOT, etc.) use for Chicago. Is it downtown or city limits? I'm guessing it's downtown based on the distances I usually see but I haven't tried measuring it for myself. It obviously would make a huge difference in a case like this.
Leaving Sycamore:
St Charles
19 Chicago
58https://goo.gl/maps/H5aQ3Ts769wEFmz38
Distances from the sign:
16 – St Charles – city limit
19 – St Charles – city center
45 – Chicago – city limit
55 – Chicago – Route 64 endpoint
58 – Chicago – city center via Lake Shore Drive
Looks like OhioDOT use the distance to downtown.
Sign on OH 741 at its interchange with I-71: https://goo.gl/maps/7xsejaYW5kpHdc887
Columbus - 82
Cincinnati - 24
Columbus city limits (at Dyer Ave overpass, just north of I-270 interchange) - 77.3
Columbus downtown (at US 23 interchange) - 82
Due to Norwood being an enclave inside of Cincinnati, I-71 SB enters Cincinnati city limits twice.
First entrance into Cincinnati city limits (at OH 562 interchange) - 17.4
Second entrance into Cincinnati city limits (at Dana Ave interchange) - 19.7
Cincinnati downtown (near I-471 interchange/Hard Rock Casino) - 24
Worth noting that OhioDOT changes control cities at city limits though. For example, the I-71 exits between downtown Cincinnati and Cincinnati city limits (notably the Dana Ave and MLK Dr exits) use Louisville as the SB control city instead of Cincinnati.
Some cities like to do annexations every few years, so to post the distance to the city limits to keep up with it the DOT would have to redo the signs often. That would actually confuse more people than it would help.
Quote from: US 89 on October 13, 2022, 05:33:48 PM
I am pretty sure the MUTCD contains language specifying town center.
It's a guidance statement:
Quote from: MUTCD Section 2D.41.03
The distance displayed should be selected on a case-by-case basis by the jurisdiction that owns the road or by statewide policy. A well-defined central area or central business district should be used where one exists. In other cases, the layout of the community should be considered in relation to the highway being signed and the decision based on where it appears that most drivers would feel that they are in the center of the community in question.
I know with NYC they do use the city limit on the EB/ SB NY State Thruway. In NJ on the NJ Turnpike it uses the George Washington Bridge as the mileage on the former every ten on the ten miles for New York signs used to use that point. I wonder what neighboring states like Delaware and Maryland use for the Big Apple.
The thing is New York is way too spread out, and it's downtown is the Financial District, but it's Midtown is where the main attractions are and the primary business district is. So how would you really define the Center of NYC? Midtown? Downtown? Plus what part of Midtown? Times Square? Grand Central? Rockefeller Center?
There used to be this infamous example in Haysville:
Wichita 2, Newton 32 (https://www.google.com/maps/@37.5662307,-97.3338628,3a,75y,356.84h,91.11t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sqO5mNzJLESrsDk5B-koCwg!2e0!7i13312!8i6656)
It was actually about 1.4 miles from the Wichita city limits, but 9 miles from City Hall at Central and Main. It disappeared sometime between July 2019 and August 2021.
Quote from: J N Winkler on October 13, 2022, 10:45:24 PM
There used to be this infamous example in Haysville:
Wichita 2, Newton 32 (https://www.google.com/maps/@37.5662307,-97.3338628,3a,75y,356.84h,91.11t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sqO5mNzJLESrsDk5B-koCwg!2e0!7i13312!8i6656)
It was actually about 1.4 miles from the Wichita city limits, but 9 miles from City Hall at Central and Main. It disappeared sometime between July 2019 and August 2021.
There's a Hays and a Haysville in Kansas?
Quote from: CtrlAltDel on October 13, 2022, 11:11:05 PMThere's a Hays and a Haysville in Kansas?
Yup. Different namesakes--Brigadier General Alexander Hays for the former and W.W. Hays, an early settler, for the latter.
Quote from: roadman65 on October 13, 2022, 10:03:52 PM
I know with NYC they do use the city limit on the EB/ SB NY State Thruway. In NJ on the NJ Turnpike it uses the George Washington Bridge as the mileage on the former every ten on the ten miles for New York signs used to use that point. I wonder what neighboring states like Delaware and Maryland use for the Big Apple.
The thing is New York is way too spread out, and it's downtown is the Financial District, but it's Midtown is where the main attractions are and the primary business district is. So how would you really define the Center of NYC? Midtown? Downtown? Plus what part of Midtown? Times Square? Grand Central? Rockefeller Center?
I would say Midtown should be counted as the center of NYC, and while I would say that either Times Square or Penn Station/MSG should be used as the exact point, in practice it would make very little difference since they are within a mile of each other.
Quote from: kphoger on October 13, 2022, 06:54:21 PM
Quote from: JoePCool14 on October 13, 2022, 05:03:50 PM
I'd like to know what IDOT (and WisDOT, INDOT, etc.) use for Chicago. Is it downtown or city limits? I'm guessing it's downtown based on the distances I usually see but I haven't tried measuring it for myself. It obviously would make a huge difference in a case like this.
Leaving Sycamore:
St Charles 19
Chicago 58
https://goo.gl/maps/H5aQ3Ts769wEFmz38
Distances from the sign:
16 – St Charles – city limit
19 – St Charles – city center
45 – Chicago – city limit
55 – Chicago – Route 64 endpoint
58 – Chicago – city center via Lake Shore Drive
Thanks, useful analysis.
Here's one I wanted to post the other day in Wisconsin on I-41/94. I see this one a lot. https://goo.gl/maps/BbaUKAkgWrnzvReu7
The sign has the distance for Chicago at 69 miles. According to Google Maps, it's 73 miles from the sign to State and Madison, via 41/94/90. 69 miles from the sign only gets you to about Armitage Ave, which is neither downtown nor city limits. 71 miles gets you to the Loop exits, so I'd say if we want to be nitpicky, 71 or 73 miles should be on that sign.
...But then I realized there's another toll-free option: US-41. Using that, the distance is between 69-70 miles from that sign. So I would consider it correct.
Distance to the city limit is meaningless to me. Do you ever have the city limit as your destination? If it weren't for the city limit signs, I wouldn't even know where the limits were.
Quote from: kphoger on October 14, 2022, 11:15:27 AM
Distance to the city limit is meaningless to me. Do you ever have the city limit as your destination? If it weren't for the city limit signs, I wouldn't even know where the limits were.
In my case technically yes. I work on the border of Chicago city limits.
Those are just general guides in my case anyway. If I'm traveling north on I-79 in West Virginia, "Morgantown" doesn't mean I'm going into town or anything; it's just where I'll exit 79 and hit I-68. The signs give me a general idea of how much farther I have to go before I change routes.
Quote from: hbelkins on October 14, 2022, 01:22:44 PM
Those are just general guides in my case anyway. If I'm traveling north on I-79 in West Virginia, "Morgantown" doesn't mean I'm going into town or anything; it's just where I'll exit 79 and hit I-68. The signs give me a general idea of how much farther I have to go before I change routes.
That's why now NC signs Benson on I-95 and I-40 due to it being the junction there.
Lake City, is not that prominent in FL, but FDOT on I-75 north and I-10 uses it because of their junction together.
Also New York now switched out Elmira on NY 17 for Corning now that I-99 and I-86 junction there.
People use those particular cities to pace themselves with other familiar highways.
Quote from: hbelkins on October 14, 2022, 01:22:44 PM
Those are just general guides in my case anyway. If I'm traveling north on I-79 in West Virginia, "Morgantown" doesn't mean I'm going into town or anything; it's just where I'll exit 79 and hit I-68. The signs give me a general idea of how much farther I have to go before I change routes.
But that's just it. Take Saint Louis as an example. If I'm coming in from the southwest on I-44 and then taking I-55 north from there up to Chicago, then mileage to the city center is useful, but mileage to the city limit is not–and the two distances are off by about eight miles.
Specifically,
here's a sign (https://goo.gl/maps/rPhXYUym9cWQsXo68) that says "St Louis / 81".
OK, you think,
I'll be changing routes at approximately MM-290. And wouldn't you know it, your exit is actually 291-A. Pretty good "general guide". If, on the other hand, the distance sign were measuring to the city limit, then it would say "St Louis / 74" instead, and you'd be thinking,
I'll be changing routes at approximately MM-283–but at that point you would actually have ten exits still to go.
It might help if when you get closer to the city they start using Downtown. Plus list all the junctions with other interstates on supplemental mileage signs as well.
Quote from: roadman65 on October 14, 2022, 02:01:32 PM
It might help if when you get closer to the city they start using Downtown. Plus list all the junctions with other interstates on supplemental mileage signs as well.
That would create a discrepancy. I'd rather have the methodology used be consistent. I agree with the idea of listing major interstate junctions.
Maryland changed theirs on I-95 southbound north of Baltimore when they put up the Clearview signs so that "Baltimore" is now roughly exit 54 (or just north of it) rather than the city line at the 895 split.
This thread reminded me of a favorite along I-95 in Florida: https://www.google.com/maps/@30.6035962,-81.6449285,3a,43.3y,216.52h,88.53t/data=!3m9!1e1!3m7!1sA5Kre0nkXo1rjTjYURLVlA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192!9m2!1b1!2i39
This is located just a few miles outside the Duval County / Jacksonville city limits. The placement is about halfway between the Yulee exit and the Nassau River (city limits). I'm guessing that was to remind folks how far out the city limits are when you come up on it a few minutes later.
Quote from: Dirt Roads on October 14, 2022, 04:57:33 PM
This thread reminded me of a favorite along I-95 in Florida: https://www.google.com/maps/@30.6035962,-81.6449285,3a,43.3y,216.52h,88.53t/data=!3m9!1e1!3m7!1sA5Kre0nkXo1rjTjYURLVlA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192!9m2!1b1!2i39
This is located just a few miles outside the Duval County / Jacksonville city limits. The placement is about halfway between the Yulee exit and the Nassau River (city limits). I'm guessing that was to remind folks how far out the city limits are when you come up on it a few minutes later.
It also could be considered a standard post-interchange distance sign, as it is right after the on-ramp from SR 200.
Does anyone know the nature of the Fairfield 9 and Sacramento 51 on I-80 East of CA 37 near Vallejo, CA?
It has a 9 greenout that was even there back in 04 that to this day hasn't yet faded along with the rest of the sign/
Quote from: roadman65 on October 13, 2022, 10:03:52 PM
I know with NYC they do use the city limit on the EB/ SB NY State Thruway. In NJ on the NJ Turnpike it uses the George Washington Bridge as the mileage on the former every ten on the ten miles for New York signs used to use that point. I wonder what neighboring states like Delaware and Maryland use for the Big Apple.
The thing is New York is way too spread out, and it's downtown is the Financial District, but it's Midtown is where the main attractions are and the primary business district is. So how would you really define the Center of NYC? Midtown? Downtown? Plus what part of Midtown? Times Square? Grand Central? Rockefeller Center?
If I recall, Columbus Circle in Manhattan is the official center for which mileage signs are based on. Though I'm assuming the Thruway has different rules on its mileage signs to New York City.
Quote from: kphoger on October 14, 2022, 11:15:27 AM
Distance to the city limit is meaningless to me. Do you ever have the city limit as your destination? If it weren't for the city limit signs, I wouldn't even know where the limits were.
Even more meaningless when you have city limits like these:
Quote from: kphoger on October 04, 2022, 04:56:27 PM
Quote from: Scott5114 on October 04, 2022, 04:44:38 PM
You'll find plenty of dumb ones in Oklahoma.
Here's one that I just ran into the other day, so it's the first one I thought of. https://www.google.com/maps/place/Mulhall,+OK/@36.0879899,-97.4037697,13z/data=!4m5!3m4!1s0x87b1bfa5cd7fdbcb:0x4302b6510a5f7388!8m2!3d36.0647655!4d-97.4069867
Funny, as soon as I saw you were posting something from Oklahoma, my mind immediately went to nearby Orlando.
https://goo.gl/maps/AxbeJtfpBrfRyCub7
Just from my personal observations here in Louisiana.....
On the state & US highways, it seems that the signs reflect distance between a specific intersection that may, or may not, be the town's center.
I live between Shreveport and Monroe. The distance signs on I-20 seem to reflect the distance to the first exits for Shreveport and Monroe. (exit 19A in Shreveport and exit 116B in Monroe) These exits also happen to be very close to their downtown centers, and both happen as soon as you cross a river. I haven't noticed what exit seems to be referenced coming from the other way into each city, but I will try next time I'm out that way.