Back in the 60s and 70s, the Convention on Road Signs and Signals (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vienna_Convention_on_Road_Signs_and_Signals), aka the Vienna Convention on Road Signs and Signals, standardized the road signs seen in most countries around the world. These signs have little text and require drivers to memorize several dozen different signs rather than rely on whether a driver is literate. It sounds like a lot, but I had to memorize them when I was stationed in Spain back in the 80s so I could drive my car. I don't recall anyone not passing the test, so it's not like it would be an impediment to driving and those growing up with the new signs would already know most of the meanings by the time they got their licenses.
I'm sure this discussion has come up before but I couldn't find one in my search and it may have been long enough ago to start a new discussion. If someone knows an old thread, feel free to add it so we can happily rehash the discussion from our new, post-pandemic worldview. (jk, but I'd be happy seeing what's already been discussed since it would be new to me.)
Since our National Highway System does not have a standardized means for differentiating which roads are subject to the special rules and regulations governing limited access highways (freeways) and partially-limited access highways, it seems like we still something similar to the international "Motorway" signage:
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/bc/Vienna_Convention_road_sign_E5a-V1.svg)
Obviously, states that have similar rules and regulations for partially-limited access highways need to have a similar sign with a different image (and perhaps a different color).
For those of you not as familiar with my position on this topic, I would prefer a numbering and signage system for the entire NHS that is coordinated with the Interstate system.
We'll use their signs if they get off the metric system.
The US didn't sign the convention, so no.
Quote from: kphoger on November 02, 2022, 01:25:39 PM
The US didn't sign the convention, so no.
This, plus as a personal opinion I tend to find international road signage is more boring than the current MUTCD. I wouldn't mind the conversion to metric though.
Quote from: Rothman on November 02, 2022, 12:19:28 PM
We'll use their signs if they get off the metric system.
Correct
I'm good with the U.S. being different. Not everything needs to be 100% standardized world-wide. I actually think the U.S. is superior when it comes to warning signage and guide signage. I'm not going to cite any surveys or anything, this is just a casual forum post after all, but I think using yellow diamonds as opposed to red and white circles is just better. It makes them stand out more. And the use of symbols can get ridiculous.
Also, metric system sounds great, but we've been using customary forever, so let's just stick with that.
Quote from: Rothman on November 02, 2022, 12:19:28 PM
We'll use their signs if they get off the metric system.
It is hard to believe how many people YOUNGER than me despise the SI so much. It is easier. Easier to do the math. Easier to interact with products and services internationally. Easier in every way except the perception of measurement to those who do not use it.
Our automobiles are almost exclusively built in metric units. Science is almost all in metric units. Even booze and weed is sold in metric units.
We fight our wars in metric units.
I figure the statement I replied ot is tongue in cheek, but I really do not want to convert the world to imperial measures.
Road signs. This is a continent wide system, with small variations. A continent is large enough to have its own system. Sure, there are a few improvements that the MUTCD could use, what couldn't, but that is a thread for another day.
Metric. Metric is, I suppose, "easier" if you are bad at math. And? The various units have no relationship to humankind. Traditional units are based on how much of a quantity was reasonable in a given context and thus much more natural.
Doesn't the Vienna convention have the yellow diamond we use as an option for warning signs along with their red border triangle? I remember seeing a lot of places using a hybrid of those, along with the red border circle speed limit and blue circle w/ white down arrow "keep right" signs.
Quote from: SP Cook on November 02, 2022, 03:08:20 PM
Traditional units are based on how much of a quantity was reasonable in a given context and thus much more natural.
A meter is approximately reach distance.
Degrees Celsius are spaced so that one degree is about the smallest noticeable difference. For example, in Fahrenheit, we would say that a person prefers room temperature at 68°, 70°, or 72°, but a 1° difference is too small; these numbers would be about 1° apart in Celsius. Freezing is also a much more natural zero point.
I wouldn't say they're any less natural than our current system.
My answer is No. This question is a bit like QWERTY versus Dvorak, railroad gauge standardization, and so on--the benefits do not justify the switching costs.
* The US has been using symbol signs in contexts where they are genuinely practical since the early 1970's.
* There are many situations where the Vienna convention does not provide a logical signing strategy, so adherents have to improvise their own. Nationally specific solutions are generally no less word-heavy or difficult for foreigners to understand than the US signs that attract complaints (e.g., lane drop signs on freeways being understood to have the meaning "No re-entry possible at this exit" rather than "The current lane drops at the next interchange").
* There is actually very little uniformity among Vienna adherents in guide/directional signing. Some, like the UK and France, have three-color systems, while others, like Germany and Switzerland, have two-color systems. The same color often has different meanings in different countries, such as blue in the UK and green in Sweden for motorways. Countries that agree broadly on the meanings of colors for high-type roads often disagree on how to color advance signs for exiting traffic. Some countries use offbeat color combinations, such as red on white for national roads in Denmark to match the flag colors. And to add to the fun, countries like Spain are in the middle of messy transitions from three-color to two-color systems and from one system for using typefaces on signs to another.
Quote from: skluth on November 02, 2022, 11:38:17 AMIt sounds like a lot, but I had to memorize them when I was stationed in Spain back in the 80s so I could drive my car. I don't recall anyone not passing the test, so it's not like it would be an impediment to driving and those growing up with the new signs would already know most of the meanings by the time they got their licenses.
Spain in the 1980's was a lot simpler than it is now, simply because the Franco regime tended to defer infrastructure investment (such as roads) that was seen as supporting a consumer economy; industrial production and forms of economic activity (such as tourism) that brought in hard currency from abroad were favored instead. Now Spain has one of the biggest motorway networks in Europe, and the signing has become chaotic simply because old signs have been left standing as radical changes have been made to the system.
In 1986 Spain had white on blue for
autopista signs and blue on white for
autovía signs; in 1992
autovía signs were changed to white on blue, and white on green was introduced for
vÃas rápidas; in 2001 white on green was eliminated (but some subnational jurisdictions continued using it anyway); a few years ago Autopista (the Series E Modified-like typeface, introduced in 1992 for use on high-type roads) was largely eliminated in favor of Carretera Convencional (but various agencies and their consultants still use Autopista anyway); etc.
I generally think the MUTCD approach is superior in terms of warning and guide signage.
The problem with using the equilateral triangle for warning signs is that the blank is half the area of the diamond, so the symbols themselves have to be correspondingly smaller. Making the full sign face yellow makes it more noticeable than a white sign with just a little bit of red piping around the edges. If there's any room for improvement on the North American side, it could easily be achieved by appropriating a few Vienna Convention symbols and slapping them onto a yellow diamond.
The guide sign approach in North America with graphical shields is, in my opinion, far superior to the alphanumeric system used in most European countries. The only real advantage that the European system has is that the hierarchy of road classifications is more clear. However, that's not really relevant in the US, because you really have only two practical classifications, Interstates and everything else. Once you learn to identify the Interstate and US route shields, anything left is generally some flavor of state route. (Or county route, but those are likewise pretty standard between the states and says the word COUNTY on it.) And in countries like Ukraine that don't use a strict A-B-C-M type setup, it's not really any more clear how the hierarchy works than it is using arbitrary graphical symbols.
The one thing that the Vienna Convention seems to do better is regulatory signage. The white rectangle blank is fine, but our regulatory signage is usually pretty wordy and sometimes kind of pointless. (Gee, this thing on the end of the mastarm with the arrow lenses is a left turn signal? you don't say?) Taking a few pages out of the Vienna Convention to streamline it would be a welcome change.
Quote from: SP Cook on November 02, 2022, 03:08:20 PM
Metric. Metric is, I suppose, "easier" if you are bad at math. And? The various units have no relationship to humankind. Traditional units are based on how much of a quantity was reasonable in a given context and thus much more natural.
Because the one thing that makes me feel the most human is counting out 5,280 of something, which is something I am naturally good at as a human.
Quote from: Scott5114 on November 02, 2022, 03:55:29 PM
Because the one thing that makes me feel the most human is counting out 5,280 of something, which is something I am naturally good at as a human.
I can somewhat see the other side here – the traditional system includes furlongs, and a furlong is about the maximum distance where you can get someone else's attention out in the open, whether by sight or by voice (although this is probably a coincidence).
This is about 100 human heights, though (especially since the above is a very rough estimate)...
Quote from: 1 on November 02, 2022, 04:01:26 PM
Quote from: Scott5114 on November 02, 2022, 03:55:29 PM
Because the one thing that makes me feel the most human is counting out 5,280 of something, which is something I am naturally good at as a human.
I can somewhat see the other side here – the traditional system includes furlongs, and a furlong is about the maximum distance where you can get someone else's attention out in the open, whether by sight or by voice (although this is probably a coincidence).
This is about 100 human heights, though (especially since the above is a very rough estimate)...
I mean, I don't know about you, but when I'm in a car, I don't generally estimate distances in my head by "gee, this is so many times the distance I can get someone else's attention." And I used to actually use furlongs on a daily basis at work.
I don't really think we need to change distance signage on roads, because many of our cities are built on a mile grid so it's just more convenient to keep using miles for legacy purposes. But when I'm measuring something at home I am loathe to use the inch side of the ruler, because it's a lot more convenient to deal with 14¼ of something than 9/16 of something. (There isn't even a 9/16 character in Unicode, so I can't even type one of my fancy fractions, dang it!) And I could probably round that off to an integer value of 14 mm and be fine for most practical applications, whereas inches are so large that you need to go to three decimal places to achieve the equivalent level of precision.
Quote from: SkyPesos on November 02, 2022, 03:16:21 PM
Doesn't the Vienna convention have the yellow diamond we use as an option for warning signs along with their red border triangle? I remember seeing a lot of places using a hybrid of those, along with the red border circle speed limit and blue circle w/ white down arrow "keep right" signs.
You don't have to go very far. Mexico uses a mix of red border circle signs and yellow diamonds.
Quote from: Scott5114 on November 02, 2022, 03:55:29 PM
Because the one thing that makes me feel the most human is counting out 5,280 of something, which is something I am naturally good at as a human.
Quote from: Scott5114 on November 02, 2022, 04:16:25 PM
I don't know about you, but when I'm in a car, I don't generally estimate distances in my head by "gee, this is so many times the distance I can get someone else's attention."
Neither 5280 feet nor 1760 yards nor 1000 meters has any real-world significance to me. I never count a thousand meters any more than you count 5280 of it. I might as well tell you that there are fewer inches in a mile than there are millimeters in a kilometer: it's meaningless to any real-world application.
Yes, inches are too big to be useful for... umm, for what? Centimeters often get decimal places anyway. Grams are too big to measure body weight, but so what?
Personally, I find the divisibility of the US Customary units more handy than the metric system. Units based on multiples of 12 can be easy divided in half, in thirds, or in fourths. Units based on multiples of 10 can easily be divided in half but not much else.
Quote from: kphoger on November 02, 2022, 05:37:02 PM
Yes, inches are too big to be useful for... umm, for what? Centimeters often get decimal places anyway. Grams are too big to measure body weight, but so what?
Personally, I find the divisibility of the US Customary units more handy than the metric system. Units based on multiples of 12 can be easy divided in half, in thirds, or in fourths. Units based on multiples of 10 can easily be divided in half but not much else.
Anything I would use inches to measure, really. I'm just gonna grab this six-sided die that's within arm's reach of me and measure it. Now, as I pick it up, I can tell it's less than an inch wide. I'm getting the ruler out. We'll do inches first. Okay, it's bigger than half an inch, but less than three-quarters of an inch. In fact, it's halfway between the two.
Now, I went to school in Washington, Oklahoma, and probably have at least two undiagnosed mental illnesses, so I suck at math and none of this comes as automatic to me. No measuring implement I've ever owned has made any distinction between /2s, /4s, /8s, and /16s in any way other than the length of the lines, and my brain gets mixed up trying to figure out which one is which. If they were different colors or something, I'd be able to tell more quickly.
I have to stop and think what fraction is halfway between ½" and ¾". So that's...what, ⅝"? Okay. That's 0.625". (I know this solely because of the post-it note I have next to the computer, because the conversion between eights and sixteenths and their decimal forms has never become instinctual for me the way fourths and halves has.) So I have to have three decimal places to express that.
Flipping the ruler around and doing cm/mm now. It's 15 mm. I can tell because it's five lines to the right of the 1 cm mark. Simple, straightforward, no decimals or fractions.
We'll just design and build he new bridge in Smoots.
:cool:
Mike
Quote from: kphoger on November 02, 2022, 05:37:02 PM
Personally, I find the divisibility of the US Customary units more handy than the metric system. Units based on multiples of 12 can be easy divided in half, in thirds, or in fourths. Units based on multiples of 10 can easily be divided in half but not much else.
That's the answer. We change all our measurements to hexadecimal. Can't easily do thirds, but it divides by 2 and 4 easily enough and it would make converting numbers for computers so-o-o-o-o much easier. It's already in place with liquid measurements; 2 cups in 1 pint, 2 pints in a quart, 4 quarts in a gallon.
It seems like most of the symbols are similar enough that if we just pared back the words on the sign, we would be most of the way to having Vienna-compliant signs. The Vienna convention allows *both* the red bordered triangles and the yellow diamonds.
Quote from: skluth on November 02, 2022, 06:09:53 PM
It's already in place with liquid measurements; 2 cups in 1 pint, 2 pints in a quart, 4 quarts in a gallon.
And I have to look those damn things up every time I need to do something with those too.
That's the real problem–I deal with units of measure so infrequently I never remember which hairbrained numbering scheme which units follow!
Quote from: Scott5114 on November 02, 2022, 06:03:29 PM
Flipping the ruler around and doing cm/mm now. It's 15 mm. I can tell because it's five lines to the right of the 1 cm mark. Simple, straightforward, no decimals or fractions.
You can count how many millimeters on a ruler? Good grief, I can't. They're too close together. Millimeters are too small to be useful, and you've already proven that centimeters are no better than inches.
Quote from: skluth on November 02, 2022, 06:09:53 PM
Quote from: kphoger on November 02, 2022, 05:37:02 PM
Personally, I find the divisibility of the US Customary units more handy than the metric system. Units based on multiples of 12 can be easy divided in half, in thirds, or in fourths. Units based on multiples of 10 can easily be divided in half but not much else.
That's the answer. We change all our measurements to hexadecimal. Can't easily do thirds, but it divides by 2 and 4 easily enough and it would make converting numbers for computers so-o-o-o-o much easier. It's already in place with liquid measurements; 2 cups in 1 pint, 2 pints in a quart, 4 quarts in a gallon.
But thirds are useful. It's one thing I like about having clocks based on the number 12 (5 minutes is 1/12 of an hour, 20 minutes is 1/3 of an hour, 8 hours is 1/3 of a day). I wish liquid measurements were based on twelves instead of simple powers of two. For example, if the recipe says 1 tablespoon of olive oil, and we're tripling the recipe, it's ridiculous that the answer is 3/16 of a cup.
Quote from: Scott5114 on November 02, 2022, 06:15:17 PM
Quote from: skluth on November 02, 2022, 06:09:53 PM
It's already in place with liquid measurements; 2 cups in 1 pint, 2 pints in a quart, 4 quarts in a gallon.
And I have to look those damn things up every time I need to do something with those too.
That's the real problem–I deal with units of measure so infrequently I never remember which hairbrained numbering scheme which units follow!
I don't use pints and quarts, so I always forget those too. What I use all the time, however, are teaspoons and tablespoons and measuring cups in the kitchen.
1 cup = 2 half-cups
1 half-cup = 2 quarter-cups
1 quarter-cup = 2 tablespoons
1 tablespoon = 3 teaspoons
Oh, hey, look, base twelve again! 1 quarter-cup = 12 teaspoons. I guess it's in there after all...
Quote from: kphoger on November 02, 2022, 06:53:47 PM
Quote from: Scott5114 on November 02, 2022, 06:03:29 PM
Flipping the ruler around and doing cm/mm now. It's 15 mm. I can tell because it's five lines to the right of the 1 cm mark. Simple, straightforward, no decimals or fractions.
You can count how many millimeters on a ruler? Good grief, I can't. They're too close together. Millimeters are too small to be useful, and you've already proven that centimeters are no better than inches.
Quote from: skluth on November 02, 2022, 06:09:53 PM
Quote from: kphoger on November 02, 2022, 05:37:02 PM
Personally, I find the divisibility of the US Customary units more handy than the metric system. Units based on multiples of 12 can be easy divided in half, in thirds, or in fourths. Units based on multiples of 10 can easily be divided in half but not much else.
That's the answer. We change all our measurements to hexadecimal. Can't easily do thirds, but it divides by 2 and 4 easily enough and it would make converting numbers for computers so-o-o-o-o much easier. It's already in place with liquid measurements; 2 cups in 1 pint, 2 pints in a quart, 4 quarts in a gallon.
But thirds are useful. It's one thing I like about having clocks based on the number 12 (5 minutes is 1/12 of an hour, 20 minutes is 1/3 of an hour, 8 hours is 1/3 of a day). I wish liquid measurements were based on twelves instead of simple powers of two. For example, if the recipe says 1 tablespoon of olive oil, and we're tripling the recipe, it's ridiculous that the answer is 3/16 of a cup.
Quote from: Scott5114 on November 02, 2022, 06:15:17 PM
Quote from: skluth on November 02, 2022, 06:09:53 PM
It's already in place with liquid measurements; 2 cups in 1 pint, 2 pints in a quart, 4 quarts in a gallon.
And I have to look those damn things up every time I need to do something with those too.
That's the real problem–I deal with units of measure so infrequently I never remember which hairbrained numbering scheme which units follow!
I don't use pints and quarts, so I always forget those too. What I use all the time, however, are teaspoons and tablespoons and measuring cups in the kitchen.
1 cup = 2 half-cups
1 half-cup = 2 quarter-cups
1 quarter-cup = 2 tablespoons
1 tablespoon = 3 teaspoons
Oh, hey, look, base twelve again! 1 quarter-cup = 12 teaspoons. I guess it's in there after all...
1 tablespoon x3 is 3 tablespoons.... Oh, you don't have to thank so hard!
And one cup is 250 ml, one tablespoon is 15 ml; and 1 cup = 16 tablespoons is good enough for a government job.
Now the real one: how many tablespoons of sugar you need to add to 1 cup of hot water to get 20% hummingbird syrup?
Quote from: jt4 on November 02, 2022, 06:14:32 PM
It seems like most of the symbols are similar enough that if we just pared back the words on the sign, we would be most of the way to having Vienna-compliant signs. The Vienna convention allows *both* the red bordered triangles and the yellow diamonds.
Topic of MUTCD vs Vienna convention comes up regularly on this forum. So far my take-home message is that Vienna convention assumes that drivers are specially trained, but may be unable to read local language (foreigners or illiterate); while MUTCD assumes literacy in
English local language but no special sign recognition classes. MUTCD approach mostly work within North America (and Quebec can be a pain); while local language may be a challenge when you can cross a few countries during a weekend trip.
An interesting tidbit I picked up from this video is that we tested out signs noted in the Vienna Convention on Road Signs and Signals in the United States, and the public was pretty adamant on sticking with what was in the MUTCD.
Quote from: kphoger on November 02, 2022, 06:53:47 PM
Quote from: Scott5114 on November 02, 2022, 06:03:29 PM
Flipping the ruler around and doing cm/mm now. It's 15 mm. I can tell because it's five lines to the right of the 1 cm mark. Simple, straightforward, no decimals or fractions.
You can count how many millimeters on a ruler? Good grief, I can't. They're too close together. Millimeters are too small to be useful, and you've already proven that centimeters are no better than inches.
Different things are easy for different people, I guess. Do you have the same problem with sixteenths of an inch? To me, it doesn't seem like they'd be too much easier to work with than mm.
It helps that on most rulers the half-cm/5 mm mark is made more prominent, so you don't really need to count any more than 3 lines. (Yes, I did just complain about bunches of different line sizes, but I can parse the {big with number, small, small, small, small, medium, small, small, small, small, big with number} pattern more easily than {big with number, size 5, size 4, size 5, size 3, size 5, size 4, size 5, size 2 ...} pattern on the inch side.)
Quote from: kphoger on November 02, 2022, 06:53:47 PM
Quote from: Scott5114 on November 02, 2022, 06:15:17 PM
Quote from: skluth on November 02, 2022, 06:09:53 PM
It's already in place with liquid measurements; 2 cups in 1 pint, 2 pints in a quart, 4 quarts in a gallon.
And I have to look those damn things up every time I need to do something with those too.
That's the real problem–I deal with units of measure so infrequently I never remember which hairbrained numbering scheme which units follow!
I don't use pints and quarts, so I always forget those too. What I use all the time, however, are teaspoons and tablespoons and measuring cups in the kitchen.
1 cup = 2 half-cups
1 half-cup = 2 quarter-cups
1 quarter-cup = 2 tablespoons
1 tablespoon = 3 teaspoons
Oh, hey, look, base twelve again! 1 quarter-cup = 12 teaspoons. I guess it's in there after all...
See, and I hardly ever convert between the two, I just put in what the recipe says. If I am doing a recipe that calls for a quarter-cup of something and I'm making half a serving, I'll just fill the quarter cup up halfway.
Of course, there was that one damned recipe that called for 1⅔ cup of something, and I was trying to make a half serving. The easiest way for me to figure that one out was to actually convert it to mL and divide
that by two. At least that is actually measurable with standard kitchen equipment–how do you measure 0.83 of a cup?! THANKS BETTY CROCKER
Quote from: Scott5114 on November 02, 2022, 07:24:22 PM
Of course, there was that one damned recipe that called for 1⅔ cup of something, and I was trying to make a half serving. The easiest way for me to figure that one out was to actually convert it to mL and divide that by two. At least that is actually measurable with standard kitchen equipment–how do you measure 0.83 of a cup?! THANKS BETTY CROCKER
1/2 cup + 1/3 cup. Don't make it more difficult than it should be!
But then I have to wash two measuring cups...
Quote from: Scott5114 on November 02, 2022, 08:25:55 PM
But then I have to wash two measuring cups...
Pro hint: you don't need to wash the cup between measurements if you measure the same ingredient twice in a row....
One thing I hate about feet/miles is how Google Maps uses feet for any line less than a mile. I couldn't relate the feet distances to miles if my life depended on it, so whenever measuring a road distance of less than a mile, I have to keep laying additional points afterwards until the line is more than a mile long to get the units to switch. To make it less Google-specific, we have signs on the road that say things like "lane ends 2000 feet". That means nothing to me beyond "somewhere up ahead less than a mile away".
Quote from: kalvado on November 02, 2022, 08:50:56 PM
Quote from: Scott5114 on November 02, 2022, 08:25:55 PM
But then I have to wash two measuring cups...
Pro hint: you don't need to wash the cup between measurements if you measure the same ingredient twice in a row....
The smallest thirds mark my big measuring cup has on it is ⅔ cup. I do have one of the little plastic ⅓ cup measuring cups, but...
Quote from: Scott5114 on November 02, 2022, 09:10:14 PM
Quote from: kalvado on November 02, 2022, 08:50:56 PM
Quote from: Scott5114 on November 02, 2022, 08:25:55 PM
But then I have to wash two measuring cups...
Pro hint: you don't need to wash the cup between measurements if you measure the same ingredient twice in a row....
The smallest thirds mark my big measuring cup has on it is ⅔ cup. I do have one of the little plastic ⅓ cup measuring cups, but...
then you can do 2/3 cup + 1/6cup. 1/6 cup is 2.5 tablespoons. Tablespoon is easier to clean than a plastic cup, so that is an easier option.
Quote from: Scott5114 on November 02, 2022, 09:10:14 PM
Quote from: kalvado on November 02, 2022, 08:50:56 PM
Quote from: Scott5114 on November 02, 2022, 08:25:55 PM
But then I have to wash two measuring cups...
Pro hint: you don't need to wash the cup between measurements if you measure the same ingredient twice in a row....
The smallest thirds mark my big measuring cup has on it is ⅔ cup. I do have one of the little plastic ⅓ cup measuring cups, but...
Or an even easier option (assuming the cup with 2/3 mark also has 1/2 and 1 cup marks)
Fill it to 1 cup mark. pour your ingredient out into the mixture until your cup is 2/3 full. Then pour it out into original container until it is 1/2 full. Then empty remaining 1/2 into the mixture.
See how easy that is??
If I have to convert between measurements anyway, why not just convert to mL and divide by two? :D
Celsius is a ridiculously coarse scale of measurement. I much prefer the refinement of Fahrenheit. Although I see the simplicity of the measurements of length in the metric system, I think the refined degrees of Fahrenheit beats Celsius hands down.
Yeah, I don't really see a whole lot of need for Celsius either. The whole thing that makes the other metric measurements appealing is the ability to convert between them easily. Celsius is just kinda...there.
Still though, slowly but surely, some Vienna Convention standards HAVE made it into the MUTCD, such as the red circle/slash to mean 'prohibited', the retroreflective outline around traffic signal backplates etc, while things in the MUTCD, such as the red octagon STOP sign and RYG traffic signals. have made it into the Vienna convention. There has been and continues to be much trading between the two.
Are there things in the Geneva Convention that I'd like to see added to the MUTCD? Of course there are, but I'll take them as they come in their due time.
Mike
Quote from: Rothman on November 02, 2022, 10:42:02 PM
Celsius is a ridiculously coarse scale of measurement. I much prefer the refinement of Fahrenheit. Although I see the simplicity of the measurements of length in the metric system, I think the refined degrees of Fahrenheit beats Celsius hands down.
The big thing that I most like with Celsius temps is the water freezes at zero and (at sea level) boils at 100 thing. My mind wants to know at a glance how much above or below freezing it is. I figured that out with no reading nor any other lessons of any kind back in the 1st grade (and I got a strange stare in return from the teacher when I said it in response to a question that she posed to the class!).
Mike
Quote from: Scott5114 on November 02, 2022, 11:05:21 PM
Yeah, I don't really see a whole lot of need for Celsius either. The whole thing that makes the other metric measurements appealing is the ability to convert between them easily. Celsius is just kinda...there.
Celsius isn't really a metric measurement in the same way that the other metric units are, though. It's basically just the Kelvin scale translated down 273.15 degrees, so that the numbers are a little more meaningful to us. It's quite useful in the lab and for scientific applications that don't require the thermodynamics type math that you need Kelvin for. Because a degree K and C have the same size, if all you need is a
difference in temperature for a scientific calculation, you can just plug your Celsius temps straight into your equation without having to convert to K first and they will work great.
As a meteorologist, I interact with all three on a regular basis. As far as describing how it actually feels outside, Fahrenheit wins hands down because of its smaller unit size and better useful range (0 to 100 is more or less the range of possible temperatures in most populated parts of the world). Celsius is great for interpreting computer models and doing other more math/behind the scenes type stuff. Kelvin I don't use as much and always have to think about it a bit when I do come across it, but I've gotten really good at the C/F conversion and can do an exact or really close conversion quickly in my head for basically anything between 0 and 110F.
Best way to think about them is this: Kelvin is how atoms feel. Celsius is how water feels. Fahrenheit is how humans feel.
Quote from: US 89 on November 03, 2022, 01:16:38 AM
Quote from: Scott5114 on November 02, 2022, 11:05:21 PM
Yeah, I don't really see a whole lot of need for Celsius either. The whole thing that makes the other metric measurements appealing is the ability to convert between them easily. Celsius is just kinda...there.
As far as describing how it actually feels outside, Fahrenheit wins hands down because of its smaller unit size and better useful range (0 to 100 is more or less the range of possible temperatures in most populated parts of the world).
Best way to think about them is this: Kelvin is how atoms feel. Celsius is how water feels. Fahrenheit is how humans feel.
There we go. And, as a human, Fahrenheit it is.
Quote from: mgk920 on November 02, 2022, 11:31:01 PM
Still though, slowly but surely, some Vienna Convention standards HAVE made it into the MUTCD, such as the red circle/slash to mean 'prohibited', the retroreflective outline around traffic signal backplates etc, while things in the MUTCD, such as the red octagon STOP sign and RYG traffic signals. have made it into the Vienna convention. There has been and continues to be much trading between the two.
Are there things in the Geneva Convention that I'd like to see added to the MUTCD? Of course there are, but I'll take them as they come in their due time.
Mike
I don't think this is that much a result of intermixing; more like Vienna convention and MUTCD are two branches of a common root.
Remember, Vienna was a result of a harmonizing effort combining best practices. Stop, do not enter, and yield signs are part of that. Even then, you can see an emphasis on text in MUTCD as all 3 usually have text in the US, while only STOP does in most of Vienna world.
As for traffic light colors - I wonder how much of that is due to available technology and human vision physiology with red/green and blue/orange-yellow being natural antagonists. maritime green and red lights and railroad lights are on the same page..
As a fun fact, one can see how the definition of green evolved over the past 25 years due to technological change. If you can find any old incandescent traffic light, you'll know what I mean...
Quote from: Scott5114 on November 02, 2022, 09:38:49 PM
If I have to convert between measurements anyway, why not just convert to mL and divide by two? :D
More like I would say that a half of (1 2/3 cup) is "a bit less than a cup". Most cooking is tolerant to ingredients ratio changes (assuming you're not a Micheline restaurant chef). Baking may be the only area where water content is important. Professional baking has to account for flour moisture level; home baking recipes often say "add a teaspoon of water if dough is too dry". It takes a dedicated effort to make an uneadible dish in most cases.
And I suspect 1 2/3 part is a result of conversion from metric to begin with.
Quote from: Scott5114 on November 02, 2022, 07:24:22 PM
Do you have the same problem with sixteenths of an inch? To me, it doesn't seem like they'd be too much easier to work with than mm.
It's easier for 1/16 inch marks, because of the different tick mark lengths you mentioned. But I hardly ever have to count 1/16s. Generally, I only need to measure down to the 1/8 inch–which is smaller than 5 mm, therefore smaller than the "big tick" on a metric ruler.
Quote from: Scott5114 on November 02, 2022, 07:24:22 PM
See, and I hardly ever convert between the two, I just put in what the recipe says. If I am doing a recipe that calls for a quarter-cup of something and I'm making half a serving, I'll just fill the quarter cup up halfway.
We hardly ever make exactly one recipe of something.
Quote from: Scott5114 on November 02, 2022, 07:24:22 PM
Of course, there was that one damned recipe that called for 1⅔ cup of something, and I was trying to make a half serving. The easiest way for me to figure that one out was to actually convert it to mL and divide that by two. At least that is actually measurable with standard kitchen equipment–how do you measure 0.83 of a cup?! THANKS BETTY CROCKER
As already mentioned, a half-cup plus a third-cup.
But also, you're only fortunate that 197 ml is close to 200 ml. If the recipe had called for 2 2/3 cups, then you would have had to measure 315 ml, which I'm guessing wouldn't have been as easy.
Quote from: Scott5114 on November 02, 2022, 08:25:55 PM
But then I have to wash two measuring cups...
Yes. It takes, like, fifteen extra seconds to wipe it out with a washrag, rinse it, and dry it.
But this is all bringing up a larger issue. All of our recipes are based on US Customary units. Converting them to metric would take nice tidy measurements and turn them into weird non-round measurements. A recipe that calls for three pounds of ground beef and two 15-ounce cans of tomato sauce would instead call for 1.36 kg of ground beef and 887 ml of tomato sauce. That's just silly–especially when the ground beef in our freezer is either 3-pound tubes (Kroger brand) or 1-pound packages (Aldi), and when the tomato sauce on the grocery store shelf comes in 15-ounce cans. Converting all of our recipes to metric would make the measurements less useful for no real benefit.
Oh, but you ask,
People in Europe do just fine, don't they? Well, yes, they do. But they use different recipes. And their recipes are based on the common sizes that items are sold in where they live. Their measurements only make sense to the home cook because package sizes are different where they live.
Oh, but now you say,
The solution to that problem is to just sell groceries in metric-friendly sizes. Except it isn't. If your recipe scales up by, let's say, 30% due to metrification, then what do you do when the old recipe calls for one egg? An egg is a fixed size and cannot be adjusted. The result would be different; in some recipes the difference would be tolerable, in others it wouldn't be. And this is why European recipes are unavoidably different from American recipes: some ingredients cannot be scaled.
Quote from: kphoger on November 02, 2022, 06:53:47 PM
But thirds are useful. It's one thing I like about having clocks based on the number 12 (5 minutes is 1/12 of an hour, 20 minutes is 1/3 of an hour, 8 hours is 1/3 of a day). I wish liquid measurements were based on twelves instead of simple powers of two. For example, if the recipe says 1 tablespoon of olive oil, and we're tripling the recipe, it's ridiculous that the answer is 3/16 of a cup.
Quote from: kalvado on November 02, 2022, 07:12:24 PM
1 tablespoon x3 is 3 tablespoons.... Oh, you don't have to thank so hard!
But my point is that, if a cup were divided into 12 tablespoons instead of 16, then 1 Tbsp x 3 = 1 quarter-cup.
Quote from: kalvado on November 02, 2022, 07:12:24 PM
And one cup is 250 ml, one tablespoon is 15 ml
How is that useful? My glass (liquid) measuring cups would be useless for measuring either one of those.
This brings up an interesting question: how are small amounts measured in Europe? For example, a US recipe might call for 1 Tbsp of honey and 1/4 tsp of ground cloves. I'm assuming these amounts are not actually metric-measured in a European home kitchen, but I don't know for sure.
Quote from: kalvado on November 02, 2022, 07:12:24 PM
Now the real one: how many tablespoons of sugar you need to add to 1 cup of hot water to get 20% hummingbird syrup?
Good one. I'd probably add a scant quarter-cup, with the understanding that it would probably be a little bit off.
Quote from: kphoger on November 03, 2022, 11:10:46 AM
Oh, but you ask, People in Europe do just fine, don't they? Well, yes, they do. But they use different recipes. And their recipes are based on the common sizes that items are sold in where they live. Their measurements only make sense to the home cook because package sizes are different where they live.
Oh, but now you say, The solution to that problem is to just sell groceries in metric-friendly sizes. Except it isn't. If your recipe scales up by, let's say, 30% due to metrification, then what do you do when the old recipe calls for one egg? An egg is a fixed size and cannot be adjusted. The result would be different; in some recipes the difference would be tolerable, in others it wouldn't be. And this is why European recipes are unavoidably different from American recipes: some ingredients cannot be scaled.
Basically what you say is that recipe should be adapted to local situation. I am totally with you.
One egg may be an issue when you want to scale that (not really, make sure you save another half for a 1.5 egg omlet next morning. 2 egg whites are a bigger problem IMHO. 1 egg + 1 US standard can of tomato sauce do work for you? great. (I know those are from different recipes, but whatever)
Would 1 egg + 1 euro size can create inedible product? I don't believe that. Can would be a bit smaller or a bit larger, but it cannot be 5x bigger, nor 5x smaller. It would be somewhere on the same page. A different type of sauces are a bigger issue.
It is also about size of the egg - medium to XL in a local walmart; plus chicken may be of a different breed in another state or country. Flour from different cultivars of wheat, different cow diet for milk and butter would all contribute. But 95% of cases it doesn't matter that much.
If the United States would have enforced the use of the metric system back in the 1800s, when it was one of the original signors of the Metre Convention and passed the Metric Act in 1866, we would have all grown up with the metric system and would have hardly had any complaints. But that didn't happen and here we are.
It is doubtful that it will be implemented here in the near term - if ever.
Quote from: seicer on November 02, 2022, 07:23:18 PM
An interesting tidbit I picked up from this video is that we tested out signs noted in the Vienna Convention on Road Signs and Signals in the United States, and the public was pretty adamant on sticking with what was in the MUTCD.
It's easier to read the Vienna convention on road signs.
Quote from: kphoger on November 03, 2022, 11:41:02 AM
How is that useful? My glass (liquid) measuring cups would be useless for measuring either one of those.
This brings up an interesting question: how are small amounts measured in Europe? For example, a US recipe might call for 1 Tbsp of honey and 1/4 tsp of ground cloves. I'm assuming these amounts are not actually metric-measured in a European home kitchen, but I don't know for sure.
Actually size of a cup and a spoon are not so much dictated by system of units. It is about size of a mouth and tradition. Of course, people getting larger in past few generations may be a factor in scaling (as evidenced by superlarge coke cups!)
1 US cup is 237 or 240 ml, depending on who you ask. Euro cup is 240-250 ml as far as I know. Really within the accuracy of kitchen equipment.
1 US tsp = 4.93 ml, 5 ml in europe. 1.5% is nothing really.
And yes, you can put a bit more emphases on weight instead of volume. Digital scale doesn't care. 4.25 ounces of flour shouldn't be a problem if you have a kitchen scale. 120 gramms is easy as well. Yes, that's 1 cup.
Quote from: kalvado on November 03, 2022, 11:42:40 AM
One egg may be an issue when you want to scale that (not really, make sure you save another half for a 1.5 egg omlet next morning.
So your solution is that I need to switch from granola to omelettes the morning after we make meatballs? That's not really a solution.
Quote from: kalvado on November 03, 2022, 11:42:40 AM
2 egg whites are a bigger problem IMHO.
Well, if we're already switching to omelettes in the morning, then I suppose we also need to start making Spaghetti Carbonara the day after we make whatever calls for egg whites...
Quote from: kalvado on November 03, 2022, 11:42:40 AM
Would 1 egg + 1 euro size can create inedible product? I don't believe that. Can would be a bit smaller or a bit larger, but it cannot be 5x bigger, nor 5x smaller. It would be somewhere on the same page.
No, it wouldn't be inedible. It might be slightly more or less thick, which might be slightly better or worse, depending on your taste. But my point is that it wouldn't be the
same. My point is that there's more involved in the metrification of recipes than just mathematical conversions. The results will be slightly different–maybe noticeably, maybe not, depending on the recipe.
Quote from: bing101 on November 03, 2022, 11:58:38 AM
Quote from: seicer on November 02, 2022, 07:23:18 PM
An interesting tidbit I picked up from this video is that we tested out signs noted in the Vienna Convention on Road Signs and Signals in the United States, and the public was pretty adamant on sticking with what was in the MUTCD.
It's easier to read the Vienna convention on road signs.
It's same as metric - it's easier to use the one you are used to.
Quote from: kphoger on November 03, 2022, 11:41:02 AM
Quote from: kalvado on November 02, 2022, 07:12:24 PM
And one cup is 250 ml, one tablespoon is 15 ml
How is that useful? My glass (liquid) measuring cups would be useless for measuring either one of those.
Quote from: kalvado on November 03, 2022, 11:58:41 AM
1 US cup is 237 or 240 ml, depending on who you ask. Euro cup is 240-250 ml as far as I know. Really within the accuracy of kitchen equipment.
1 US tsp = 4.93 ml, 5 ml in europe. 1.5% is nothing really.
Ah geez, what was I thinking when I said it would be useless for measuring 250 ml? Yes, of course that would be easy. But what about 15 ml or 5 ml? How do you measure that with metric kitchen equipment?
And, even if there's an answer, what would be the benefit to switching?
Quote from: kphoger on November 03, 2022, 11:59:29 AM
No, it wouldn't be inedible. It might be slightly more or less thick, which might be slightly better or worse, depending on your taste. But my point is that it wouldn't be the same. My point is that there's more involved in the metrification of recipes than just mathematical conversions. The results will be slightly different–maybe noticeably, maybe not, depending on the recipe.
I bet if two of us get into the same kitchen and cook the same recipe using same equipment, result will be a bit different as well.
I always wonder how recipes are developed. One can cook same thing using 1.5, 1.6, 1.7, 1.8, 1.9, and 2 cups of... sauce, or whatever. Say your sweet spot is between 1.6 and 1.7, but 1.5 is still pretty good - and your kids actually like 1.5 more. What you're putting in the text? My bet 1 1/2 would go to print to keep it simple. Commercial recipe may call for 375 grams, though, not being simple fraction of your cup....
Should this thread be moved to Traffic Control, by the way, considering it is [supposed to be] about signs and signals?
Quote from: kphoger on November 03, 2022, 12:05:57 PM
Quote from: kphoger on November 03, 2022, 11:41:02 AM
Quote from: kalvado on November 02, 2022, 07:12:24 PM
And one cup is 250 ml, one tablespoon is 15 ml
How is that useful? My glass (liquid) measuring cups would be useless for measuring either one of those.
Quote from: kalvado on November 03, 2022, 11:58:41 AM
1 US cup is 237 or 240 ml, depending on who you ask. Euro cup is 240-250 ml as far as I know. Really within the accuracy of kitchen equipment.
1 US tsp = 4.93 ml, 5 ml in europe. 1.5% is nothing really.
Ah geez, what was I thinking when I said it would be useless for measuring 250 ml? Yes, of course that would be easy. But what about 15 ml or 5 ml? How do you measure that with metric kitchen equipment?
And, even if there's an answer, what would be the benefit to switching?
Both systems are refined by decades of use, so no direct benefit for you right away. And if there would be no globalization, each system would be just fine within its domain. I cook ml, you cook cups, both are happy.
Once you start talking global trade, though... If your inch-designed airplane gets metric-produced parts contracted... well, there were actual situations like that that mage headlines - and I don't know how many of them didn't.
Quote from: kphoger on November 03, 2022, 12:11:31 PM
Should this thread be moved to Traffic Control, by the way, considering it is [supposed to be] about signs and signals?
I'd be fine with that. It's not a thread group I tend to follow so I didn't think of using it when I created this thread. Mods, feel free to move this thread to Traffic Control.
Quote from: kphoger on November 03, 2022, 12:05:57 PM
Ah geez, what was I thinking when I said it would be useless for measuring 250 ml? Yes, of course that would be easy. But what about 15 ml or 5 ml? How do you measure that with metric kitchen equipment?
And, even if there's an answer, what would be the benefit to switching?
Based on half-remembered Food Network shows, I believe many dry ingredients we measure by volume they measure by weight over there. So you wouldn't measure out a cup of brown sugar, you'd measure out so many grams of it. Measuring by weight is generally more accurate because grams are fairly small, so they're precise, and if you're using a digital scale it's much easier to hit an exact number like 375 g than it is to get an accurate volume measure by eyeballing mL lines.
I am not sure if the same is true of liquid measures. I suppose there's no real reason you couldn't weigh out so many grams of milk.
Quote from: Scott5114 on November 03, 2022, 12:24:13 PM
I am not sure if the same is true of liquid measures. I suppose there's no real reason you couldn't weigh out so many grams of milk.
Most objects that come from living things have a density similar to water (1 g = 1 mL), but within a 20% range (e.g. wood is on the lower end, about 0.85). I seem to remember milk being about 1.1.
I posted this but then immediately deleted it because this discussion isn't actually on topic to the intended purpose of this thread: we already use the metric system for small amounts, like grams in nutrition labels and medications and 0.5/0.7/0.9 mm pencil leads.
Quote from: Scott5114 on November 03, 2022, 12:24:13 PM
Quote from: kphoger on November 03, 2022, 12:05:57 PM
Ah geez, what was I thinking when I said it would be useless for measuring 250 ml? Yes, of course that would be easy. But what about 15 ml or 5 ml? How do you measure that with metric kitchen equipment?
And, even if there's an answer, what would be the benefit to switching?
Based on half-remembered Food Network shows, I believe many dry ingredients we measure by volume they measure by weight over there. So you wouldn't measure out a cup of brown sugar, you'd measure out so many grams of it. Measuring by weight is generally more accurate because grams are fairly small, so they're precise, and if you're using a digital scale it's much easier to hit an exact number like 375 g than it is to get an accurate volume measure by eyeballing mL lines.
I am not sure if the same is true of liquid measures. I suppose there's no real reason you couldn't weigh out so many grams of milk.
I know that already. But a scale, even a digital scale, is worthless when it comes to measuring, say, a quarter-teaspoon of ground cloves.
Quote from: Scott5114 on November 02, 2022, 06:15:17 PM
Quote from: skluth on November 02, 2022, 06:09:53 PM
It's already in place with liquid measurements; 2 cups in 1 pint, 2 pints in a quart, 4 quarts in a gallon.
And I have to look those damn things up every time I need to do something with those too.
That's the real problem–I deal with units of measure so infrequently I never remember which hairbrained numbering scheme which units follow!
What confuses me is when a recipe calls for a unit that does not match the units in which things are sold at the store–for example, x cups of cream, or y cups of milk, or whatever. I sometimes pull out my phone and ask Siri to convert units so that I can buy the right size package of something in that situation, as I have no clue how most American units relate to each other. (The main thing is that I don't want to buy too large a package and then waste money when the leftover portion spoils.)
I also have a "Kitchen Calculator" app that does conversions, but most of the time at the store it's easier to ask Siri unless I'm at a store with bad cellular data service (Whole Foods in Alexandria comes to mind). I use the app more when I'm at home. As has been mentioned, weighing ingredients in grams is more precise, so when I want to use our kitchen scale I generally use the kitchen calculator app to convert the units to grams. Because so many American recipes use volume even for dry ingredients, when you want to convert volume to weight the app asks you what ingredient it is.
Quote from: 1995hoo on November 03, 2022, 12:45:28 PM
What confuses me is when a recipe calls for a unit that does not match the units in which things are sold at the store–for example, x cups of cream, or y cups of milk, or whatever.
Yes. If the recipe calls for two cups of tomato purée, and the store has 10.75-ounce cans, then who the heck knows–without googling it–if you need to buy one can or two?
Quote from: kphoger on November 03, 2022, 01:02:49 PM
Quote from: 1995hoo on November 03, 2022, 12:45:28 PM
What confuses me is when a recipe calls for a unit that does not match the units in which things are sold at the store–for example, x cups of cream, or y cups of milk, or whatever.
Yes. If the recipe calls for two cups of tomato purée, and the store has 10.75-ounce cans, then who the heck knows–without googling it–if you need to buy one can or two?
11 ounces is about 300 ml, so you need 2 to fill 2 x 240 ml cups
Quote from: kphoger on November 03, 2022, 12:05:57 PM
But what about 15 ml or 5 ml? How do you measure that with metric kitchen equipment?
Amazon sells measuring spoon sets with both US and Metric measurements:
https://www.amazon.com/Measuring-Stainless-Tablespoon-Measurements-Ingredients/dp/B07H3QRCZD?th=1
I'm sure in Europe and elsewhere they sell measuring spoons in metric.
Of the things I actually measure (whether precisely or estimating) in my everyday life on a regular basis...
Long distances: The road system here is based on the mile. If I want to know how far it is to ride my bike from, say, 45th/Woodlawn to 13th/Rock, then I can do that in my head. All I have to do is count the major intersections. Woodlawn to Rock, 1 mile. 45th to 37th, 2 miles. 37th to 29th, 3 miles. 29th to 21st, 4 miles. 21st to 13th, 5 miles. Done. Convert to metric, and I can no longer do this near as easily. Similarly, if I'm driving out in the boonies and the rural roads are numbered in the 10s every mile, and I'm looking for 70th, and I'm currently at 40th, then I know I have three miles to go. Convert to metric, and I can no longer do this near as easily.
Short distances: If I'm using a ruler or tape measure, then I'm generally measuring something around the house. A piece of furniture to see if it will fit somewhere, a piece of lumber to cut it, a piece of paper to cut it or draw on it. In these cases, neither US Customary nor metric necessarily has a clear advantage. It all depends. The other day, I was dividing an 8½x11 sheet of paper into sevenths, and metric worked great for the long way (28 cm / 7 = 4 cm each square). In contrast, I find the larger size of inches to be more useful when rearranging furniture.
Kitchen measurements: As I've said, US Customary units work well for measuring volume, especially when the measurements are small. My kitchen is not a commercial kitchen, after all. In contrast, I can't think of any kitchen measurement for which metric has a clear advantage. Switching between volume and weight is cumbersome, but that would be an issue with metric as well. The issue of volume vs weight isn't the issue as US Customary vs metric.
Quote from: kalvado on November 03, 2022, 01:18:12 PM
Quote from: kphoger on November 03, 2022, 01:02:49 PM
Quote from: 1995hoo on November 03, 2022, 12:45:28 PM
What confuses me is when a recipe calls for a unit that does not match the units in which things are sold at the store–for example, x cups of cream, or y cups of milk, or whatever.
Yes. If the recipe calls for two cups of tomato purée, and the store has 10.75-ounce cans, then who the heck knows–without googling it–if you need to buy one can or two?
11 ounces is about 300 ml, so you need 2 to fill 2 x 240 ml cups
As I said, who the heck knows?
Quote from: GaryV on November 03, 2022, 01:24:07 PM
Quote from: kphoger on November 03, 2022, 12:05:57 PM
But what about 15 ml or 5 ml? How do you measure that with metric kitchen equipment?
Amazon sells measuring spoon sets with both US and Metric measurements:
https://www.amazon.com/Measuring-Stainless-Tablespoon-Measurements-Ingredients/dp/B07H3QRCZD?th=1
I'm sure in Europe and elsewhere they sell measuring spoons in metric.
But my question is this: Is that how people in Europe actually measure small amounts? Or do they use non-metric units?
Quote from: kphoger on November 03, 2022, 01:29:48 PM
Quote from: GaryV on November 03, 2022, 01:24:07 PM
Quote from: kphoger on November 03, 2022, 12:05:57 PM
But what about 15 ml or 5 ml? How do you measure that with metric kitchen equipment?
Amazon sells measuring spoon sets with both US and Metric measurements:
https://www.amazon.com/Measuring-Stainless-Tablespoon-Measurements-Ingredients/dp/B07H3QRCZD?th=1
I'm sure in Europe and elsewhere they sell measuring spoons in metric.
But my question is this: Is that how people in Europe actually measure small amounts? Or do they use non-metric units?
I'm sure they have a 10ml spoon, 5ml spoon, a 2ml spoon, etc. Or whatever are the common sizes.
Quote from: kphoger on November 03, 2022, 01:28:19 PM
Quote from: kalvado on November 03, 2022, 01:18:12 PM
Quote from: kphoger on November 03, 2022, 01:02:49 PM
Quote from: 1995hoo on November 03, 2022, 12:45:28 PM
What confuses me is when a recipe calls for a unit that does not match the units in which things are sold at the store–for example, x cups of cream, or y cups of milk, or whatever.
Yes. If the recipe calls for two cups of tomato purée, and the store has 10.75-ounce cans, then who the heck knows–without googling it–if you need to buy one can or two?
11 ounces is about 300 ml, so you need 2 to fill 2 x 240 ml cups
As I said, who the heck knows?
1. I do, for example.
2. Can you compare a can in your hand to your usual coffee mug?
Quote from: GaryV on November 03, 2022, 01:33:23 PM
Quote from: kphoger on November 03, 2022, 01:29:48 PM
Quote from: GaryV on November 03, 2022, 01:24:07 PM
Quote from: kphoger on November 03, 2022, 12:05:57 PM
But what about 15 ml or 5 ml? How do you measure that with metric kitchen equipment?
Amazon sells measuring spoon sets with both US and Metric measurements:
https://www.amazon.com/Measuring-Stainless-Tablespoon-Measurements-Ingredients/dp/B07H3QRCZD?th=1
I'm sure in Europe and elsewhere they sell measuring spoons in metric.
But my question is this: Is that how people in Europe actually measure small amounts? Or do they use non-metric units?
I'm sure they have a 10ml spoon, 5ml spoon, a 2ml spoon, etc. Or whatever are the common sizes.
Expected answer: There is no civilization outside of lower 48!!
Actual answer: they do about the same things as in US. They do use spoons in most places, and certainly there are measurement tools similar to US.
Quote from: kalvado on November 03, 2022, 01:43:58 PM
Actual answer: they do about the same things as in US. They do use spoons in most places, and certainly there are measurement tools similar to US.
Indeed, inn looking at German recipes, I'm seeing butter measured in a unit called "TL", which means "teaspoon". Also a unit called "EL", which means "tablespoon". Not SI units, that's for sure.
Quote from: US 89 on November 03, 2022, 01:16:38 AM
Quote from: Scott5114 on November 02, 2022, 11:05:21 PM
Yeah, I don't really see a whole lot of need for Celsius either. The whole thing that makes the other metric measurements appealing is the ability to convert between them easily. Celsius is just kinda...there.
As far as describing how it actually feels outside, Fahrenheit wins hands down because of its smaller unit size and better useful range (0 to 100 is more or less the range of possible temperatures in most populated parts of the world).
Best way to think about them is this: Kelvin is how atoms feel. Celsius is how water feels. Fahrenheit is how humans feel.
Is the smaller unit size of Fahrenheit really necessary? I can barely perceive a 1 degree difference in Celsius let alone Fahrenheit. Really the only advantage I see with Fahrenheit is dealing with negative temperatures less often. Still, I don't think the extra two syllables in
"it's minus three outside" is a big deal to me. Really either scale works fine depending on what you're used to, and after visiting the US enough times and from reading online posts, I've gotten a pretty good handle on both Celsius and Fahrenheit.
But I'm definitely thankful that my job in Civil Engineering uses metric. I only deal with m and mm and it's easy to convert between the two. :)
Quote from: 7/8 on November 03, 2022, 01:56:34 PM
Is the smaller unit size of Fahrenheit really necessary? I can barely perceive a 1 degree difference in Celsius let alone Fahrenheit. Really the only advantage I see with Fahrenheit is dealing with negative temperatures less often. Still, I don't think the extra two syllables in "it's minus three outside" is a big deal to me. Really either scale works fine depending on what you're used to, and after visiting the US enough times and from reading online posts, I've gotten a pretty good handle on both Celsius and Fahrenheit.
I agree, neither Fahrenheit nor Celsius is more intuitive for air temperature. But the freezing point being zero gives Celsius a huge advantage, in my opinion.
Quote from: 7/8 on November 03, 2022, 01:56:34 PM
Quote from: US 89 on November 03, 2022, 01:16:38 AM
Quote from: Scott5114 on November 02, 2022, 11:05:21 PM
Yeah, I don't really see a whole lot of need for Celsius either. The whole thing that makes the other metric measurements appealing is the ability to convert between them easily. Celsius is just kinda...there.
As far as describing how it actually feels outside, Fahrenheit wins hands down because of its smaller unit size and better useful range (0 to 100 is more or less the range of possible temperatures in most populated parts of the world).
Best way to think about them is this: Kelvin is how atoms feel. Celsius is how water feels. Fahrenheit is how humans feel.
Is the smaller unit size of Fahrenheit really necessary? I can barely perceive a 1 degree difference in Celsius let alone Fahrenheit. Really the only advantage I see with Fahrenheit is dealing with negative temperatures less often. Still, I don't think the extra two syllables in "it's minus three outside" is a big deal to me. Really either scale works fine depending on what you're used to, and after visiting the US enough times and from reading online posts, I've gotten a pretty good handle on both Celsius and Fahrenheit.
But I'm definitely thankful that my job in Civil Engineering uses metric. I only deal with m and mm and it's easy to convert between the two. :)
It's actually the other way around in your example. Alternative is
"it's twenty seven outside", one syllable more.
I don't really use Celsius temperatures, even when I'm in Mexico. However, I have at least learned to tie them to the real world. Here's my system:
-20°C = As cold as it gets around here most years.
-10°C = Below this temperature, being outdoors is unpleasant, no matter how much clothing I put on.
0°C = Freezing point.
10°C = Below this temperature, don't leave the windows open overnight.
20°C = The bottom limit of room temperature.
30°C = Above this temperature, outdoor activity is hot and sweaty.
40°C = As hot as it usually gets around here.
Quote from: Scott5114 on November 02, 2022, 03:55:29 PM
Because the one thing that makes me feel the most human is counting out 5,280 of something, which is something I am naturally good at as a human.
If only Parliament hadn't shortened the foot by
1/
11 back in the 16th Century, there would still be 4800 feet to the mile, which would be a much more useful number. A half-mile would then be 2400 feet (800 yards), a quarter-mile 1200 feet (400 yards), and a furlong 600 feet (200 yards). Unfortunately for us, that decision proved to be preferable at the time to the alternative of everyone in England having to pay more 10% more in property taxes.
Just some small additions so Fahrenheit users can check it out. And inevitable special point:
-40°C = -40°F : at -40 it doesn't matter any more!
Quote from: kphoger on November 03, 2022, 02:30:18 PM
I don't really use Celsius temperatures, even when I'm in Mexico. However, I have at least learned to tie them to the real world. Here's my system:
-20°C = -4°F: As cold as it gets around here most years.
-10°C = 14 °F: Below this temperature, being outdoors is unpleasant, no matter how much clothing I put on.
0°C = 32°F Freezing point.
10°C = 50°F Below this temperature, don't leave the windows open overnight.
20°C = 68°F The bottom limit of room temperature. (maybe a bit too pessimistic. K.)
30°C = 86°F Above this temperature, outdoor activity is hot and sweaty.
40°C = 104°F: As hot as it usually gets around here.
Quote from: kalvado on November 03, 2022, 03:36:24 PM
Just some small additions so Fahrenheit users can check it out. And inevitable special point:
-40°C = -40°F : at -40 it doesn't matter any more!
Quote from: kphoger on November 03, 2022, 02:30:18 PM
I don't really use Celsius temperatures, even when I'm in Mexico. However, I have at least learned to tie them to the real world. Here's my system:
-20°C = -4°F: As cold as it gets around here most years.
-10°C = 14 °F: Below this temperature, being outdoors is unpleasant, no matter how much clothing I put on.
0°C = 32°F Freezing point.
10°C = 50°F Below this temperature, don't leave the windows open overnight.
20°C = 68°F The bottom limit of room temperature. (maybe a bit too pessimistic. K.)
30°C = 86°F Above this temperature, outdoor activity is hot and sweaty.
40°C = 104°F: As hot as it usually gets around here.
Yup. At -40 and below, you don't want to be outside regardless of scale. I'll add 50°C = 122°F which is as hot as Palm Springs gets almost every summer (though not last summer).
There's a poem I heard somewhere that makes Celsius easy as a general matter:
"0 is freezing; 10 is not. 20 is pleasant; 30 is hot."
While I might quibble with whether 30 is really "hot," I do agree with kphoger's characterization that above that temperature, outdoor activity quickly becomes hot and sweaty, especially if you live in an area that often has high humidity.
Quote from: Scott5114 on November 03, 2022, 12:24:13 PM
Quote from: kphoger on November 03, 2022, 12:05:57 PM
Ah geez, what was I thinking when I said it would be useless for measuring 250 ml? Yes, of course that would be easy. But what about 15 ml or 5 ml? How do you measure that with metric kitchen equipment?
And, even if there's an answer, what would be the benefit to switching?
Based on half-remembered Food Network shows, I believe many dry ingredients we measure by volume they measure by weight over there. So you wouldn't measure out a cup of brown sugar, you'd measure out so many grams of it. Measuring by weight is generally more accurate because grams are fairly small, so they're precise, and if you're using a digital scale it's much easier to hit an exact number like 375 g than it is to get an accurate volume measure by eyeballing mL lines.
I am not sure if the same is true of liquid measures. I suppose there's no real reason you couldn't weigh out so many grams of milk.
Dry ingredients are measured by weight because their volume can change based on how they're handled.
Mike
Quote from: kphoger on November 03, 2022, 01:02:49 PM
Quote from: 1995hoo on November 03, 2022, 12:45:28 PM
What confuses me is when a recipe calls for a unit that does not match the units in which things are sold at the store–for example, x cups of cream, or y cups of milk, or whatever.
Yes. If the recipe calls for two cups of tomato purée, and the store has 10.75-ounce cans, then who the heck knows–without googling it–if you need to buy one can or two?
This is how we end up with plastic-wrapped half-used cans of tomato sauce in the fridge.
The transatlantic differences in baking and cooking also include butter (not strictly a dry ingredient) being quoted by mass rather than volume, and metal baking dishes being far more prevalent than glass. Ingredients are often formulated differently and not necessarily available under the same names if at all. As an example, British brown sugar is consistently darker than the American kind, due to higher molasses content; I often substituted demerara sugar, which is coarser in texture and not easy to find here.
I simply accepted that I would have to think in terms of tolerances and be prepared to do conversions based on density. Everything I fixed came out edible, though there were minor differences in flavor and moistness.
Gee, I read page 1 of this thread, and then read page 4, and everyone is still talking about temperature measurements. Did I miss anything good?
Quote from: skluth on November 03, 2022, 04:52:10 PM
Quote from: kalvado on November 03, 2022, 03:36:24 PM
Just some small additions so Fahrenheit users can check it out. And inevitable special point:
-40°C = -40°F : at -40 it doesn't matter any more!
Quote from: kphoger on November 03, 2022, 02:30:18 PM
I don't really use Celsius temperatures, even when I'm in Mexico. However, I have at least learned to tie them to the real world. Here's my system:
-20°C = -4°F: As cold as it gets around here most years.
-10°C = 14 °F: Below this temperature, being outdoors is unpleasant, no matter how much clothing I put on.
0°C = 32°F Freezing point.
10°C = 50°F Below this temperature, don't leave the windows open overnight.
20°C = 68°F The bottom limit of room temperature. (maybe a bit too pessimistic. K.)
30°C = 86°F Above this temperature, outdoor activity is hot and sweaty.
40°C = 104°F: As hot as it usually gets around here.
Yup. At -40 and below, you don't want to be outside regardless of scale. I'll add 50°C = 122°F which is as hot as Palm Springs gets almost every summer (though not last summer).
The nice thing about Celsius is that the general range of temperatures on earth is about -50 to 50, with freezing right in the middle.
Quote from: TXtoNJ on November 07, 2022, 12:14:23 AM
The nice thing about Celsius is that the general range of temperatures on earth is about -50 to 50, with freezing right in the middle.
That doesn't necessarily make it more
useful or
conventient. My opinions about customary/metric units are based on how easy they are to use in the real world in my everyday life. And, honestly, when it comes to that, neither one has any real advantage for temperature.
Quote from: pderocco on November 06, 2022, 12:38:37 AMGee, I read page 1 of this thread, and then read page 4, and everyone is still talking about temperature measurements. Did I miss anything good?
Not really. (I'm a little surprised by this drift toward metric versus customary/imperial measures, since there is one Vienna adherent--Britain--that still uses imperial units on signs, and the convention itself is agnostic as to units system.)
It all started with |Rothman|.
Quote from: Rothman on November 02, 2022, 12:19:28 PM
We'll use their signs if they get off the metric system.
Quote from: J N Winkler on November 07, 2022, 11:29:38 AM
Quote from: pderocco on November 06, 2022, 12:38:37 AMGee, I read page 1 of this thread, and then read page 4, and everyone is still talking about temperature measurements. Did I miss anything good?
Not really. (I'm a little surprised by this drift toward metric versus customary/imperial measures, since there is one Vienna adherent--Britain--that still uses imperial units on signs, and the convention itself is agnostic as to units system.)
On the other hand, Canada is mostly MUTCD and metric.
And I wonder if there is any correlation between mains voltage and style of traffic signs...
Quote from: Rothman on November 07, 2022, 10:10:23 PM
Quote from: kphoger on November 07, 2022, 11:37:39 AM
It all started with |Rothman|.
Quote from: Rothman on November 02, 2022, 12:19:28 PM
We'll use their signs if they get off the metric system.
*blinks innocently*
Far more interesting and challenging would be forcing all Europe go to 60 hz AC electricity.