Could telephone numbers in North America also contain letters in future? For example 223-ASW-3XB3.
Quote from: Poiponen13 on December 13, 2022, 11:08:59 AM
Could telephone numbers in North America also contain letters in future? For example 223-ASW-3XB3.
They used to, and still do in some advertising (for example, 1-800-DISCOVER). But since there are only 10 keys in standard telephone keypads, using letters instead of numbers (for example, 2 = A, B, or C) would not increase the supply of available numbers.
Quote from: oscar on December 13, 2022, 11:22:27 AM
But since there are only 10 keys in standard telephone keypads
# and * bring it up to 12.
There is a plan for expansion at some point in the far future, which is why area codes can't have 9 as a middle digit.
Quote from: 1 on December 13, 2022, 11:32:56 AM
Quote from: oscar on December 13, 2022, 11:22:27 AM
But since there are only 10 keys in standard telephone keypads
# and * bring it up to 12.
There is a plan for expansion at some point in the far future, which is why area codes can't have 9 as a middle digit.
It would be good to use letters as well. And U.S. zip codes should also contain letters, e.g. in the format AB-1234.
Quote from: Poiponen13 on December 13, 2022, 11:38:38 AM
Quote from: 1 on December 13, 2022, 11:32:56 AM
Quote from: oscar on December 13, 2022, 11:22:27 AM
But since there are only 10 keys in standard telephone keypads
# and * bring it up to 12.
There is a plan for expansion at some point in the far future, which is why area codes can't have 9 as a middle digit.
It would be good to use letters as well. And U.S. zip codes should also contain letters, e.g. in the format AB-1234.
Can we dictate inconvenience into Finland's postal codes and phone numbers? Asking for a friend...
Quote from: SectorZ on December 13, 2022, 11:52:13 AM
Quote from: Poiponen13 on December 13, 2022, 11:38:38 AM
Quote from: 1 on December 13, 2022, 11:32:56 AM
Quote from: oscar on December 13, 2022, 11:22:27 AM
But since there are only 10 keys in standard telephone keypads
# and * bring it up to 12.
There is a plan for expansion at some point in the far future, which is why area codes can't have 9 as a middle digit.
It would be good to use letters as well. And U.S. zip codes should also contain letters, e.g. in the format AB-1234.
Can we dictate inconvenience into Finland's postal codes and phone numbers? Asking for a friend...
Finnish postal codes have five digits, exactly like US codes.
There is obviously no reason to change zip codes.
As to area codes or phone numbers, the goofed up when they started all the overlays and area splits. They could have just gone to four numbers, adding a zero to all the area codes and then up from there and had an inexhaustible supply.
Quote from: Poiponen13 on December 13, 2022, 11:38:38 AM
And U.S. zip codes should also contain letters, e.g. in the format AB-1234.
U.S. Zip codes already have nine digits. Most people use only the first five digits (bulk mailers more often use all nine), which the Postal Service tolerates. But that could change should we somehow end up with a shortage of five-digit codes.
Changing the format to include letters seems to me a solution in search of a problem.
Quote from: SP Cook on December 13, 2022, 11:58:38 AM
There is obviously no reason to change zip codes.
As to area codes or phone numbers, the goofed up when they started all the overlays and area splits. They could have just gone to four numbers, adding a zero to all the area codes and then up from there and had an inexhaustible supply.
Zip codes would be nicer with letters.
All phone numbers should end with 5233 (JADE).
Quote from: Poiponen13 on December 13, 2022, 12:38:58 PM
Quote from: SP Cook on December 13, 2022, 11:58:38 AM
There is obviously no reason to change zip codes.
As to area codes or phone numbers, the goofed up when they started all the overlays and area splits. They could have just gone to four numbers, adding a zero to all the area codes and then up from there and had an inexhaustible supply.
Zip codes would be nicer with letters.
Why? You keep saying it would be better or nicer but give no reasons. Unless you have a reason, you're just trolling. Again.
Seems like we've had this type of discussion before.
At one time, you saw phone numbers listed as a word followed by one number, then the dash, then the four-digit number. The landline prefix in my community is 464, so old newspaper ads showed phone numbers as INgersoll4-nnnn.
If you're old enough to remember the big-band song "Pennsylvania 6-5000," or have otherwise heard of it or that phrase, that song is making reference to a phone number.
Quote from: Poiponen13 on December 13, 2022, 12:38:58 PM
Quote from: SP Cook on December 13, 2022, 11:58:38 AM
There is obviously no reason to change zip codes.
As to area codes or phone numbers, the goofed up when they started all the overlays and area splits. They could have just gone to four numbers, adding a zero to all the area codes and then up from there and had an inexhaustible supply.
Zip codes would be nicer with letters.
Well, when the time does come for the USA to add to its land area, I can envision having to create ZIP codes with leading letters such as 'A0049' or 'A1227', etc. In reality, anything is possible.
Mike
Quote from: mgk920 on December 13, 2022, 01:23:13 PM
Well, when the time does come for the USA to add to its land area, I can envision having to create ZIP codes with leading letters such as 'A0049' or 'A1227', etc. In reality, anything is possible.
Mike
Some (usually older) video games have a bug where if you overflow the score counter, you can have e.g. C million points instead of 12 million. Is this proposal of that type where A = 10, B = 11, etc.?
I once saw a bar code that contained letters. How does that even work? All possible permutations of stripes that aren't one away from something else are used for the ten digits; there's no room for expansion.
Quote from: mgk920 on December 13, 2022, 01:23:13 PM
Quote from: Poiponen13 on December 13, 2022, 12:38:58 PM
Quote from: SP Cook on December 13, 2022, 11:58:38 AM
There is obviously no reason to change zip codes.
As to area codes or phone numbers, the goofed up when they started all the overlays and area splits. They could have just gone to four numbers, adding a zero to all the area codes and then up from there and had an inexhaustible supply.
Zip codes would be nicer with letters.
Well, when the time does come for the USA to add to its land area, I can envision having to create ZIP codes with leading letters such as 'A0049' or 'A1227', etc. In reality, anything is possible.
Mike
Zip codes should do a reform where there can be a letter as first character of code.
Quote from: skluth on December 13, 2022, 01:01:10 PM
Quote from: Poiponen13 on December 13, 2022, 12:38:58 PM
Quote from: SP Cook on December 13, 2022, 11:58:38 AM
There is obviously no reason to change zip codes.
As to area codes or phone numbers, the goofed up when they started all the overlays and area splits. They could have just gone to four numbers, adding a zero to all the area codes and then up from there and had an inexhaustible supply.
Zip codes would be nicer with letters.
Why? You keep saying it would be better or nicer but give no reasons. Unless you have a reason, you're just trolling. Again.
I like letters as identifiers very greatly.
Quote from: Poiponen13 on December 13, 2022, 01:26:50 PM
Quote from: mgk920 on December 13, 2022, 01:23:13 PM
Quote from: Poiponen13 on December 13, 2022, 12:38:58 PM
Quote from: SP Cook on December 13, 2022, 11:58:38 AM
There is obviously no reason to change zip codes.
As to area codes or phone numbers, the goofed up when they started all the overlays and area splits. They could have just gone to four numbers, adding a zero to all the area codes and then up from there and had an inexhaustible supply.
Zip codes would be nicer with letters.
Well, when the time does come for the USA to add to its land area, I can envision having to create ZIP codes with leading letters such as 'A0049' or 'A1227', etc. In reality, anything is possible.
Mike
Zip codes should do a reform where there can be a letter as first character of code.
What does that accomplish?
Quote from: 1 on December 13, 2022, 01:25:47 PM
Quote from: mgk920 on December 13, 2022, 01:23:13 PM
Well, when the time does come for the USA to add to its land area, I can envision having to create ZIP codes with leading letters such as 'A0049' or 'A1227', etc. In reality, anything is possible.
Mike
Some (usually older) video games have a bug where if you overflow the score counter, you can have e.g. C million points instead of 12 million. Is this proposal of that type where A = 10, B = 11, etc.?
I once saw a bar code that contained letters. How does that even work? All possible permutations of stripes that aren't one away from something else are used for the ten digits; there's no room for expansion.
'Hexadecimal' numbers.
Mike
Quote from: jeffandnicole on December 13, 2022, 01:37:13 PM
Quote from: Poiponen13 on December 13, 2022, 01:26:50 PM
Quote from: mgk920 on December 13, 2022, 01:23:13 PM
Quote from: Poiponen13 on December 13, 2022, 12:38:58 PM
Quote from: SP Cook on December 13, 2022, 11:58:38 AM
There is obviously no reason to change zip codes.
As to area codes or phone numbers, the goofed up when they started all the overlays and area splits. They could have just gone to four numbers, adding a zero to all the area codes and then up from there and had an inexhaustible supply.
Zip codes would be nicer with letters.
Well, when the time does come for the USA to add to its land area, I can envision having to create ZIP codes with leading letters such as 'A0049' or 'A1227', etc. In reality, anything is possible.
Mike
Zip codes should do a reform where there can be a letter as first character of code.
What does that accomplish?
Have more zip codes if exhaustion occurs.
Zip codes are in no danger of "exhaustion" . The first three digits are for the zone, which is a central city with a sorting post office. They planned ahead and they skipped plenty of combinations. So in the unlikely event that a part of the country grew so much that it became a central post office, they have a number available. The last two are either the individual post office in rural areas, or a part of town in big cities. Again, they planned ahead and each set has plenty of skipped numbers. If a new town develops, they just use one of those.
Quote from: SP Cook on December 13, 2022, 02:14:03 PM
Zip codes are in no danger of "exhaustion" . The first three digits are for the zone, which is a central city with a sorting post office. They planned ahead and they skipped plenty of combinations. So in the unlikely event that a part of the country grew so much that it became a central post office, they have a number available. The last two are either the individual post office in rural areas, or a part of town in big cities. Again, they planned ahead and each set has plenty of skipped numbers. If a new town develops, they just use one of those.
But Canadian codes have one more character than US codes.
This is one of the very rare cases when SP Cook is right. We're nowhere near running out, and there are a lot of available numbers.
Quote from: Poiponen13 on December 13, 2022, 01:29:27 PM
Quote from: skluth on December 13, 2022, 01:01:10 PM
Quote from: Poiponen13 on December 13, 2022, 12:38:58 PM
Quote from: SP Cook on December 13, 2022, 11:58:38 AM
There is obviously no reason to change zip codes.
As to area codes or phone numbers, the goofed up when they started all the overlays and area splits. They could have just gone to four numbers, adding a zero to all the area codes and then up from there and had an inexhaustible supply.
Zip codes would be nicer with letters.
Why? You keep saying it would be better or nicer but give no reasons. Unless you have a reason, you're just trolling. Again.
I like letters as identifiers very greatly.
So what?
You liking something doesn't mean it should happen.
Troll.
Quote from: Poiponen13 on December 13, 2022, 02:36:01 PM
But Canadian codes have one more character than US codes.
And?
Canada's system is slightly more complex. The first character is unique to each province, thus wasting a lot for the smaller places. The second character indicates rural or urban. Certain character combinations are used for special functions.
Quote from: Poiponen13 on December 13, 2022, 02:36:01 PM
But Canadian codes have one more character than US codes.
Sounds inefficient.
Quote from: SP Cook on December 13, 2022, 02:14:03 PM
Zip codes are in no danger of "exhaustion" . The first three digits are for the zone, which is a central city with a sorting post office. They planned ahead and they skipped plenty of combinations. So in the unlikely event that a part of the country grew so much that it became a central post office, they have a number available. The last two are either the individual post office in rural areas, or a part of town in big cities. Again, they planned ahead and each set has plenty of skipped numbers. If a new town develops, they just use one of those.
Not to mention, a lot of ZIP codes have been de-commissioned in the almost 60 years since the system was first introduced.
If it ain't broke......
Quote from: frankenroad on December 13, 2022, 04:08:11 PM
If it ain't broke......
......Poiponen13 will attempt to fix it.
Quote from: SP Cook on December 13, 2022, 02:14:03 PM
Zip codes are in no danger of "exhaustion" . The first three digits are for the zone, which is a central city with a sorting post office. They planned ahead and they skipped plenty of combinations. So in the unlikely event that a part of the country grew so much that it became a central post office, they have a number available. The last two are either the individual post office in rural areas, or a part of town in big cities. Again, they planned ahead and each set has plenty of skipped numbers. If a new town develops, they just use one of those.
Not even close to exhaustion. If you take out xx000 as an option, that leaves 99,900 possible ZIP Codes, with about 42,000 currently in use.
We're also nowhere near out of phone numbers.
Leave us alone, we know what to do.
Quote from: kphoger on December 13, 2022, 04:06:44 PM
Quote from: Poiponen13 on December 13, 2022, 02:36:01 PM
But Canadian codes have one more character than US codes.
Sounds inefficient.
The only advantage with Canadian postal codes is Santa's mailing address: H0H 0H0
I imagine that the danger of running out of phone numbers was a more looming threat before (1) cell phones skyrocketed in popularity, (2) portability was opened up to cell phone numbers, and (3) cell phone providers stopped caring about local/long-distance distinctions.
Quote from: Poiponen13 on December 13, 2022, 02:36:01 PM
But Canadian codes have one more character than US codes.
But the US has not yet taken over Canada - that's another thread.
Quote from: SP Cook on December 13, 2022, 02:14:03 PM
Zip codes are in no danger of "exhaustion" . The first three digits are for the zone, which is a central city with a sorting post office. They planned ahead and they skipped plenty of combinations. So in the unlikely event that a part of the country grew so much that it became a central post office, they have a number available. The last two are either the individual post office in rural areas, or a part of town in big cities. Again, they planned ahead and each set has plenty of skipped numbers. If a new town develops, they just use one of those.
Kentucky has given back a number of ZIP codes over the years in rural counties. They were originally signed alphabetically with the area distribution center getting the nnn01 designation; in my area, 41301 is Campton. I remember seeing lists of ZIP codes in this area with places like Altro and Athol getting lower numbers; in my county, Zachariah (now closed) was 41396 and Zoe (pronounced "Zoh" and still open) is 41397.
The 413 area spanned only four counties (Breathitt, Lee, Owsley, and Wolfe.) The 403 and 404 areas span cover much more territory but many of those counties had fewer post offices to start with.
The zip code system actually has eleven digits: the base five digits that everyone is familiar with, then the plus-four code that you can include if you want, and then there's a two-digit "delivery point" code that is basically only ever used by USPS. Put it all together and you have an eleven-digit code that uniquely identifies every mailbox in the United States.
What possible change could even be needed, especially when there are loads of five-digit ZIPs that have yet to be allocated, and the eleven-digit codes allow for a million addresses in each ZIP?
Quote from: Scott5114 on December 13, 2022, 07:01:17 PM
What possible change could even be needed, especially when there are loads of five-digit ZIPs that have yet to be allocated, and the eleven-digit codes allow for a million addresses in each ZIP?
He likes letters as identifiers very greatly.
Quote from: kphoger on December 13, 2022, 07:09:58 PM
Quote from: Scott5114 on December 13, 2022, 07:01:17 PM
What possible change could even be needed, especially when there are loads of five-digit ZIPs that have yet to be allocated, and the eleven-digit codes allow for a million addresses in each ZIP?
He likes letters as identifiers very greatly.
I like chicken strips very greatly, but I'm not calling for them to be added to the zip code system.
Quote from: formulanone on December 13, 2022, 04:30:20 PM
Leave us alone, we know what to do.
No Poiponen, you will not have the ZIP code.
Quote from: Takumi on December 13, 2022, 07:33:56 PM
Quote from: formulanone on December 13, 2022, 04:30:20 PM
Leave us alone, we know what to do.
No Poiponen, you will not have the ZIP code.
Yeah, yeah, yeah so just be QU137 ;-)
Quote from: hbelkins on December 13, 2022, 01:19:29 PM
Seems like we've had this type of discussion before.
At one time, you saw phone numbers listed as a word followed by one number, then the dash, then the four-digit number. The landline prefix in my community is 464, so old newspaper ads showed phone numbers as INgersoll4-nnnn.
If you're old enough to remember the big-band song "Pennsylvania 6-5000," or have otherwise heard of it or that phrase, that song is making reference to a phone number.
Originally, the number was PENnsylvania 5000. New York (until 1930), Chicago, Boston, and Philadelphia (prior to 1948) used 3 letter-4 digit numbers before changing to the more common 2 letter-5 digit numbers. Chicago was the last city to show 2L5N numbers instead of 7 digits in the phone book, ending the practice in the mid '70s, although they are still used in advertising to this day.
In the rest of the country, prior to the 1950s, larger cities (including LA) used 2 letter-4 digit numbers, such as MAin 1234, while smaller cities and towns used 4 or 5 digits if they had dial service. Rural areas that didn't have dial service had to signal the operator to make a call, either by just picking up the handset or turning the crank if they had really old phones (I saw one of those used in northern Wisconsin as late as 1962, and it worked!) to alert the operator. Those areas used 3 digit numbers with a letter on the end, such as 123-J, for party lines.
Quote from: Scott5114 on December 13, 2022, 07:01:17 PM
The zip code system actually has eleven digits: the base five digits that everyone is familiar with, then the plus-four code that you can include if you want, and then there's a two-digit "delivery point" code that is basically only ever used by USPS. Put it all together and you have an eleven-digit code that uniquely identifies every mailbox in the United States.
And Canada's six characters are roughly equivalent to a ZIP+4.
Quote from: oscar on December 13, 2022, 11:22:27 AMThey used to, and still do in some advertising (for example, 1-800-DISCOVER). But since there are only 10 keys in standard telephone keypads, using letters instead of numbers (for example, 2 = A, B, or C) would not increase the supply of available numbers.
They're still numbers in the end, though. If a phone number in a television advertisement in ABCD, it looks different externally, but at the end of the day, it's still 2223, in that you could just write or might as well have just written out 2223 instead of ABCD.
Quote from: formulanone on December 13, 2022, 09:00:19 PM
Quote from: Takumi on December 13, 2022, 07:33:56 PM
Quote from: formulanone on December 13, 2022, 04:30:20 PM
Leave us alone, we know what to do.
No Poiponen, you will not have the ZIP code.
Yeah, yeah, yeah so just be QU137 ;-)
4WH47
and pre 1970s, a phone number would look like UNion7-5309.
Quote from: Poiponen13 on December 13, 2022, 11:38:38 AM
Quote from: 1 on December 13, 2022, 11:32:56 AM
Quote from: oscar on December 13, 2022, 11:22:27 AM
But since there are only 10 keys in standard telephone keypads
# and * bring it up to 12.
There is a plan for expansion at some point in the far future, which is why area codes can't have 9 as a middle digit.
It would be good to use letters as well. And U.S. zip codes should also contain letters, e.g. in the format AB-1234.
Americans would shit a brick if letters were added to zip codes, if their reactions when I need to tell them my Canadian postal code are any indication.
So at my job, we have to ask for zip code, and it only accepts numbers, no letters. When I have someone start to tell me letters, I just stop them and say "Haha nevermind you're good" and just enter all zeroes.
So Poiponen's ideal world consists of streets named for presidents, random word named streets with every fifth one some variant of Jade, absolutely no numbered streets at all, and now alphanumeric phone numbers (or is it phone alphanumbers?) and postal codes. I think a universe is gradually being built here...
Quote from: US 89 on December 14, 2022, 12:44:52 AM
So Poiponen's ideal world consists of streets named for presidents, random word named streets with every fifth one some variant of Jade, absolutely no numbered streets at all, and now alphanumeric phone numbers (or is it phone alphanumbers?) and postal codes. I think a universe is gradually being built here...
sounds like Nimbya to me
We are a few decades away, but we will at some point run out of viable phone number combinations in North America. Adding a digit will solve this.
While phone numbers in the U.S. have 10 digits, Social Security numbers have only nine. Nobody has addressed this, despite the fact that these numbers will probably outlive the payment of benefits in less than a decade.
Quote from: Road Hog on December 14, 2022, 01:51:36 AM
We are a few decades away, but we will at some point run out of viable phone number combinations in North America. Adding a digit will solve this.
While phone numbers in the U.S. have 10 digits, Social Security numbers have only nine. Nobody has addressed this, despite the fact that these numbers will probably outlive the payment of benefits in less than a decade.
Adding a letter to telephone numbers would be better.
Quote from: Poiponen13 on December 14, 2022, 02:51:11 AM
Quote from: Road Hog on December 14, 2022, 01:51:36 AM
We are a few decades away, but we will at some point run out of viable phone number combinations in North America. Adding a digit will solve this.
While phone numbers in the U.S. have 10 digits, Social Security numbers have only nine. Nobody has addressed this, despite the fact that these numbers will probably outlive the payment of benefits in less than a decade.
Adding a letter to telephone numbers would be better.
The letters on American telephones just resolve to numbers. Unless you're wanting to force everyone to buy new telephones that have actual letter buttons on them. In which case, why do you hate old people, Poiponen13?
For the uninitiated ....
2 - ABC
3 - DEF
4 - GHI
5 - JKL
6 - MNO
7 - PQRS
8 - TUV
9 - WXYZ
0 and 1 have no associated letters. Q and Z were omitted from early dials and touch buttons, but were added later.
What about all-letter telephone numbers?
US and Canadian telephone numbering system should have clusters in area codes. Such as 2 in east, 9 in west. And area codes should be both 3 and 4-digit.
Quote from: US 89 on December 14, 2022, 12:44:52 AM
So Poiponen's ideal world consists of streets named for presidents, random word named streets with every fifth one some variant of Jade, absolutely no numbered streets at all, and now alphanumeric phone numbers (or is it phone alphanumbers?) and postal codes. I think a universe is gradually being built here...
Alanland phone numbers could be alphanumeric. And they could also have
check digit.
Can you come up with ideas of USA improvement that actually pertain to your country doing it better?
I'll let you start with modern heavy metal music. Finland kills us in that dept (especially since we have 60x population). Any pointers?
Quote from: SectorZ on December 14, 2022, 08:17:05 AM
Can you come up with ideas of USA improvement that actually pertain to your country doing it better?
I'll let you start with modern heavy metal music. Finland kills us in that dept (especially since we have 60x population). Any pointers?
Should use letters.
Quote from: Scott5114 on December 13, 2022, 07:01:17 PM
The zip code system actually has eleven digits: the base five digits that everyone is familiar with, then the plus-four code that you can include if you want, and then there's a two-digit "delivery point" code that is basically only ever used by USPS. Put it all together and you have an eleven-digit code that uniquely identifies every mailbox in the United States.
What possible change could even be needed, especially when there are loads of five-digit ZIPs that have yet to be allocated, and the eleven-digit codes allow for a million addresses in each ZIP?
Tested this theory when I was a kid, living in Rescue, VA. I had my father here in Colorado send a letter addressed to nothing more than 'Rescue VA 23424-0014", from [his zip+4]. It got to me. To be fair, Rescue is a small, non-delivery post office, but yeah, it does seem to work.
The only thing I wonder about, is that here, addresses on one side of the street have one +4, and the other side has a different one. Every house (from what I've seen) on the same side, has the same +4.
Quote from: Poiponen13 on December 14, 2022, 06:32:04 AM
US and Canadian telephone numbering system should have clusters in area codes. Such as 2 in east, 9 in west. And area codes should be both 3 and 4-digit.
Actually no. If you look at the original map, understand the population at the time (1947, before the great migration to the South) and understand how dial telephones work(ed) you understand the system.
The middle digit had to be a 0 or a 1. 0s were assigned to jurisdictions that had only one area code, 1s to places with multiple ones. Look at the dial. The smallest number of clicks thus went to New York City, 212 followed by LA 213, Chicage 312, etc. The smallest single jurisdiction area code went to New Jersey 201, followed by DC 202. the longest combinations went to places like west Texas, the Canadian Maritimes, Vermont and all those farm states in the Midwest.
Note that no southern state, unless you count Texas, had more than one area code. That is how few people lived in Florida, for example, before air conditioning and the wise use of fossil energy to power it.
Quote from: zachary_amaryllis on December 14, 2022, 08:34:15 AM
Quote from: Scott5114 on December 13, 2022, 07:01:17 PM
The zip code system actually has eleven digits: the base five digits that everyone is familiar with, then the plus-four code that you can include if you want, and then there's a two-digit "delivery point" code that is basically only ever used by USPS. Put it all together and you have an eleven-digit code that uniquely identifies every mailbox in the United States.
What possible change could even be needed, especially when there are loads of five-digit ZIPs that have yet to be allocated, and the eleven-digit codes allow for a million addresses in each ZIP?
Tested this theory when I was a kid, living in Rescue, VA. I had my father here in Colorado send a letter addressed to nothing more than 'Rescue VA 23424-0014", from [his zip+4]. It got to me. To be fair, Rescue is a small, non-delivery post office, but yeah, it does seem to work.
The only thing I wonder about, is that here, addresses on one side of the street have one +4, and the other side has a different one. Every house (from what I've seen) on the same side, has the same +4.
The post office is surprisingly good at finding where mail is supposed to go. While I was living in Norman, OK, the state of Maryland, in its infinite wisdom, once sent me a letter addressed to {my name}, {correct street number, misspelled street}, Norman's Island, MD {incorrect zip code that corresponds to a random small town in Texas}. The letter actually managed to arrive.
Quote from: zachary_amaryllis on December 14, 2022, 08:34:15 AM
The only thing I wonder about, is that here, addresses on one side of the street have one +4, and the other side has a different one. Every house (from what I've seen) on the same side, has the same +4.
The rule of thumb (as a kid I used to amuse myself by perusing the local ZIP+4 directory) is that within a carrier route, the even side of a block has one +4, while the other side has another. Cul-de-sacs might be the exception.
Quote from: kirbykart on December 14, 2022, 08:31:53 AM
Quote from: SectorZ on December 14, 2022, 08:17:05 AM
Can you come up with ideas of USA improvement that actually pertain to your country doing it better?
I'll let you start with modern heavy metal music. Finland kills us in that dept (especially since we have 60x population). Any pointers?
Should use letters.
What does that mean?
Quote from: Road Hog on December 14, 2022, 01:51:36 AM
We are a few decades away, but we will at some point run out of viable phone number combinations in North America. Adding a digit will solve this.
The North American Numbering Plan contemplates this.
You may have noticed that there are no area codes with "9" in the second position. This is to support a future expansion of the dialing plan to 11 or 12 digits.
The phone number +1 213 555 1212 could become +1 2913 555 1212 or +1 2913 n555 1212 (where n is a numeral from 2-9) when expansion is implemented.
EDIT: Actually, it looks like that's only one of the proposals for NANP expansion. More here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_American_Numbering_Plan_expansion
Quote from: elsmere241 on December 14, 2022, 10:08:23 AM
Quote from: zachary_amaryllis on December 14, 2022, 08:34:15 AM
The only thing I wonder about, is that here, addresses on one side of the street have one +4, and the other side has a different one. Every house (from what I've seen) on the same side, has the same +4.
The rule of thumb (as a kid I used to amuse myself by perusing the local ZIP+4 directory) is that within a carrier route, the even side of a block has one +4, while the other side has another. Cul-de-sacs might be the exception.
My former residence on a cul-de-sac with six homes, all had the same+4.
But... it was built in 2005 and we had a box at the beginning of the street for all of us. That likely makes it apples-to-oranges.
My current home, as a kid, the +4 actually changed when two new homes were built on my dead-end road (went down by 2). I do not know what that number is for any of my neighbor's homes.
Quote from: elsmere241 on December 14, 2022, 10:08:23 AM
Quote from: zachary_amaryllis on December 14, 2022, 08:34:15 AM
The only thing I wonder about, is that here, addresses on one side of the street have one +4, and the other side has a different one. Every house (from what I've seen) on the same side, has the same +4.
The rule of thumb (as a kid I used to amuse myself by perusing the local ZIP+4 directory) is that within a carrier route, the even side of a block has one +4, while the other side has another. Cul-de-sacs might be the exception.
During a period of my life when I had a lot of time on my hands, I actually deciphered and worked out how to draw the 'old' barcodes, (back around 1994) and it was surprisingly simple to both parse, and actually draw.
We're not so different: when I was a kid, I would peruse the local phone book and memorize all the prefixes. That's pretty much out the window nowadays. But it evolved into me maintaining that list for the local Fido people, back in the diz-zay.
Quote from: elsmere241 on December 14, 2022, 10:08:23 AM
Quote from: zachary_amaryllis on December 14, 2022, 08:34:15 AM
The only thing I wonder about, is that here, addresses on one side of the street have one +4, and the other side has a different one. Every house (from what I've seen) on the same side, has the same +4.
The rule of thumb (as a kid I used to amuse myself by perusing the local ZIP+4 directory) is that within a carrier route, the even side of a block has one +4, while the other side has another. Cul-de-sacs might be the exception.
It also has to do with the number of households. I live in a condo building with 180 units and we have 6 different ZIP+4 codes just in our building.
Quote from: frankenroad on December 14, 2022, 03:52:38 PM
Quote from: elsmere241 on December 14, 2022, 10:08:23 AM
Quote from: zachary_amaryllis on December 14, 2022, 08:34:15 AM
The only thing I wonder about, is that here, addresses on one side of the street have one +4, and the other side has a different one. Every house (from what I've seen) on the same side, has the same +4.
The rule of thumb (as a kid I used to amuse myself by perusing the local ZIP+4 directory) is that within a carrier route, the even side of a block has one +4, while the other side has another. Cul-de-sacs might be the exception.
It also has to do with the number of households. I live in a condo building with 180 units and we have 6 different ZIP+4 codes just in our building.
The Appleton, WI ZIP code area has had its numbers reapportioned a few times within my lifetime, too. It all started with the number '54911', as it was originally assigned at the beginning of ZIP Codes in about 1963, covering the entire area, to several in the 54911-54919 range today.
54911, 54913, 45914 and 54915 now cover the street addresses in the Appleton area, 54912 is for all Appleton, WI official Post Office boxes, 45916, 45917 and 54918 are unassigned/inactive, being held in reserve for future growth in the area, and 54919 is for all mail to the Thrivent HQ on the city's far north side.
Mike
Quote from: Takumi on December 13, 2022, 11:05:17 PM
Quote from: formulanone on December 13, 2022, 09:00:19 PM
Quote from: Takumi on December 13, 2022, 07:33:56 PM
Quote from: formulanone on December 13, 2022, 04:30:20 PM
Leave us alone, we know what to do.
No Poiponen, you will not have the ZIP code.
Yeah, yeah, yeah so just be QU137 ;-)
4WH47
8W04h
Perhaps we should start using overly long numbers, like 01189998819991197253.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HWc3WY3fuZU
I knew a fellow in college who wrote his phone number as 979-HATE, another guy whose number spelled 977-GEEK (he didn't mention that too often for some reason), and another fellow who noticed his spelled 9-SPERM-9.
Quote from: Road Hog on December 14, 2022, 01:51:36 AM
We are a few decades away, but we will at some point run out of viable phone number combinations in North America. Adding a digit will solve this.
Quote from: MikeTheActuary on December 14, 2022, 11:06:48 AM
The North American Numbering Plan contemplates this.
You may have noticed that there are no area codes with "9" in the second position. This is to support a future expansion of the dialing plan to 11 or 12 digits.
The phone number +1 213 555 1212 could become +1 2913 555 1212 or +1 2913 n555 1212 (where n is a numeral from 2-9) when expansion is implemented.
I'm not sure that the original North American Numbering Plan ever envisioned a fully programmable telephone environment. My aunt was the developer of the computer network architecture (and changes) that were a prerequisite for the Baby Bell breakup (which became the official Local Area Transport Area map). Back then, there were still too many hard-wired PBX and PABX switching systems to conceive a change to the numbering plan. Nowadays, there is no particular reason that any LATA could not implement a complete renumbering. Furthermore, it may already be possible to change the area codes assigned to certain LATAs (but there are probably some overseas networks that are still hardwired to route certain North American calls over different cables using the +1 IDD and the area code in the switching logic.
Quote from: vdeane on December 14, 2022, 09:01:27 PM
Perhaps we should start using overly long numbers, like 01189998819991197253.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HWc3WY3fuZU
I had this clip from Caddicarus in mind:
https://youtube.com/clip/UgkxAsY80u-0KJzY-NcRpWfcuz9HAYV91BPG
Quote from: Poiponen13 on December 14, 2022, 10:54:26 AM
Quote from: kirbykart on December 14, 2022, 08:31:53 AM
Quote from: SectorZ on December 14, 2022, 08:17:05 AM
Can you come up with ideas of USA improvement that actually pertain to your country doing it better?
I'll let you start with modern heavy metal music. Finland kills us in that dept (especially since we have 60x population). Any pointers?
Should use letters.
What does that mean?
It's picking at your desire to use letters for everything because
Quote from: Poiponen13I like letters as identifiers very greatly.
Quote from: kirbykart on December 15, 2022, 08:33:38 AM
Quote from: Poiponen13 on December 14, 2022, 10:54:26 AM
Quote from: kirbykart on December 14, 2022, 08:31:53 AM
Quote from: SectorZ on December 14, 2022, 08:17:05 AM
Can you come up with ideas of USA improvement that actually pertain to your country doing it better?
I'll let you start with modern heavy metal music. Finland kills us in that dept (especially since we have 60x population). Any pointers?
Should use letters.
What does that mean?
It's picking at your desire to use letters for everything because
Quote from: Poiponen13I like letters as identifiers very greatly.
Shit, nobody tell him about Missouri.
Quote from: Scott5114 on December 15, 2022, 08:48:54 AM
Quote from: kirbykart on December 15, 2022, 08:33:38 AM
Quote from: Poiponen13 on December 14, 2022, 10:54:26 AM
Quote from: kirbykart on December 14, 2022, 08:31:53 AM
Quote from: SectorZ on December 14, 2022, 08:17:05 AM
Can you come up with ideas of USA improvement that actually pertain to your country doing it better?
I'll let you start with modern heavy metal music. Finland kills us in that dept (especially since we have 60x population). Any pointers?
Should use letters.
What does that mean?
It's picking at your desire to use letters for everything because
Quote from: Poiponen13I like letters as identifiers very greatly.
Shit, nobody tell him about Missouri.
Someone please poke the 'STOP POO" sign guy.
Quote from: Poiponen13 on December 14, 2022, 06:14:44 AM
What about all-letter telephone numbers?
So... you want telephones to have 36 dialing keys? 26 letters plus 10 numerals? That sounds like an absolutely terrible idea.
Quote from: Poiponen13 on December 14, 2022, 06:32:04 AM
US and Canadian telephone numbering system should have clusters in area codes. Such as 2 in east, 9 in west. And area codes should be both 3 and 4-digit.
As has already been explained, the numbers were assigned so that, when dialing a rotary telephone, major population centers required the lowest number of clicks. That may seem like ancient history to you, but my grandfather had a rotary telephone until the day he moved into a nursing home about twenty years ago.
Quote from: vdeane on December 14, 2022, 09:01:27 PM
Perhaps we should start using overly long numbers, like 01189998819991197253.
International dialing isn't all that much better. My best friend's phone number is saved in my contacts list as 01152#421081619 (one digit redacted for obvious reasons).
Quote from: Dirt Roads on December 14, 2022, 10:26:50 PM
Quote from: Road Hog on December 14, 2022, 01:51:36 AM
We are a few decades away, but we will at some point run out of viable phone number combinations in North America. Adding a digit will solve this.
Quote from: MikeTheActuary on December 14, 2022, 11:06:48 AM
The North American Numbering Plan contemplates this.
You may have noticed that there are no area codes with "9" in the second position. This is to support a future expansion of the dialing plan to 11 or 12 digits.
The phone number +1 213 555 1212 could become +1 2913 555 1212 or +1 2913 n555 1212 (where n is a numeral from 2-9) when expansion is implemented.
I'm not sure that the original North American Numbering Plan ever envisioned a fully programmable telephone environment. My aunt was the developer of the computer network architecture (and changes) that were a prerequisite for the Baby Bell breakup (which became the official Local Area Transport Area map). Back then, there were still too many hard-wired PBX and PABX switching systems to conceive a change to the numbering plan.
He didn't claim that the
original NANP contemplate
d it. He said that the NANP contemplate
s it. That is to say, when the list of viable area codes was expanded to include digits other than 0 and 1 in the middle position, they left out the number 9 with such a reason specifically in mind.
Actually, the total of 36 letters and numbers could be arranged in a perfect square..
Quote from: zachary_amaryllis on December 15, 2022, 10:29:35 AM
Quote from: Scott5114 on December 15, 2022, 08:48:54 AM
Quote from: kirbykart on December 15, 2022, 08:33:38 AM
Quote from: Poiponen13 on December 14, 2022, 10:54:26 AM
Quote from: kirbykart on December 14, 2022, 08:31:53 AM
Quote from: SectorZ on December 14, 2022, 08:17:05 AM
Can you come up with ideas of USA improvement that actually pertain to your country doing it better?
I'll let you start with modern heavy metal music. Finland kills us in that dept (especially since we have 60x population). Any pointers?
Should use letters.
What does that mean?
It's picking at your desire to use letters for everything because
Quote from: Poiponen13I like letters as identifiers very greatly.
Shit, nobody tell him about Missouri.
Someone please poke the 'STOP POO" sign guy.
The intersection in that picture is in Wisconsin. (https://goo.gl/maps/UGLchsmBGGh318gC7)
Quote from: 1995hoo on December 15, 2022, 03:43:20 PM
Quote from: zachary_amaryllis on December 15, 2022, 10:29:35 AM
Quote from: Scott5114 on December 15, 2022, 08:48:54 AM
Quote from: kirbykart on December 15, 2022, 08:33:38 AM
Quote from: Poiponen13 on December 14, 2022, 10:54:26 AM
Quote from: kirbykart on December 14, 2022, 08:31:53 AM
Quote from: SectorZ on December 14, 2022, 08:17:05 AM
Can you come up with ideas of USA improvement that actually pertain to your country doing it better?
I'll let you start with modern heavy metal music. Finland kills us in that dept (especially since we have 60x population). Any pointers?
Should use letters.
What does that mean?
It's picking at your desire to use letters for everything because
Quote from: Poiponen13I like letters as identifiers very greatly.
Shit, nobody tell him about Missouri.
Someone please poke the 'STOP POO" sign guy.
The intersection in that picture is in Wisconsin. (https://goo.gl/maps/UGLchsmBGGh318gC7)
Oh, never a doubt. I just think that's the most awesome sign ever.
Quote from: kphoger on December 15, 2022, 03:39:56 PM
Quote from: Poiponen13 on December 14, 2022, 06:14:44 AM
What about all-letter telephone numbers?
So... you want telephones to have 36 dialing keys? 26 letters plus 10 numerals? That sounds like an absolutely terrible idea.
Quote from: MultiMillionMiler on December 15, 2022, 03:43:01 PM
Actually, the total of 36 letters and numbers could be arranged in a perfect square..
That does not make it any less of a terrible idea.
Quote from: kphoger on December 15, 2022, 04:05:57 PM
Quote from: kphoger on December 15, 2022, 03:39:56 PM
Quote from: Poiponen13 on December 14, 2022, 06:14:44 AM
What about all-letter telephone numbers?
So... you want telephones to have 36 dialing keys? 26 letters plus 10 numerals? That sounds like an absolutely terrible idea.
Quote from: MultiMillionMiler on December 15, 2022, 03:43:01 PM
Actually, the total of 36 letters and numbers could be arranged in a perfect square..
That does not make it any less of a terrible idea.
No I agree, but maybe that format could be a better application to keyboards or something.
The fact that nobody really uses Dvorak keyboards despite them being around since 1936 shows that, for most people, QWERTY is good enough.
Quote from: Scott5114 on December 15, 2022, 04:31:19 PM
The fact that nobody really uses Dvorak keyboards despite them being around since 1936 shows that, for most people, QWERTY is good enough.
Nobody can agree on the alt/option modifier keys, though. By default, Apple has support for several accents on vowels, but not consonants (except ç and ñ; ł is doable by holding the key but not through key combination), so Czech is out. No macrons, either. Currency symbols are limited to $£€Â¥. En-dashes and em-dashes are included, as are ± and ≠, but × is not. And why
are fi and fl (those are both one character each) included?
Microsoft includes 1/4, 1/2, and 3/4 as fractions, but Apple does not.
Quote from: 1 on December 15, 2022, 04:36:50 PM
Microsoft includes 1/4, 1/2, and 3/4 as fractions, but Apple does not.
⅞
Quote from: Poiponen13 on December 13, 2022, 12:38:58 PM
Quote from: SP Cook on December 13, 2022, 11:58:38 AM
There is obviously no reason to change zip codes.
As to area codes or phone numbers, the goofed up when they started all the overlays and area splits. They could have just gone to four numbers, adding a zero to all the area codes and then up from there and had an inexhaustible supply.
Zip codes would be nicer with letters.
If they had letters, they'd have to be careful not to assign offensive words to zip codes.
Quote from: KeithE4Phx on December 13, 2022, 09:47:15 PM
Quote from: hbelkins on December 13, 2022, 01:19:29 PM
Seems like we've had this type of discussion before.
At one time, you saw phone numbers listed as a word followed by one number, then the dash, then the four-digit number. The landline prefix in my community is 464, so old newspaper ads showed phone numbers as INgersoll4-nnnn.
If you're old enough to remember the big-band song "Pennsylvania 6-5000," or have otherwise heard of it or that phrase, that song is making reference to a phone number.
Originally, the number was PENnsylvania 5000. New York (until 1930), Chicago, Boston, and Philadelphia (prior to 1948) used 3 letter-4 digit numbers before changing to the more common 2 letter-5 digit numbers. Chicago was the last city to show 2L5N numbers instead of 7 digits in the phone book, ending the practice in the mid '70s, although they are still used in advertising to this day.
In the rest of the country, prior to the 1950s, larger cities (including LA) used 2 letter-4 digit numbers, such as MAin 1234, while smaller cities and towns used 4 or 5 digits if they had dial service. Rural areas that didn't have dial service had to signal the operator to make a call, either by just picking up the handset or turning the crank if they had really old phones (I saw one of those used in northern Wisconsin as late as 1962, and it worked!) to alert the operator. Those areas used 3 digit numbers with a letter on the end, such as 123-J, for party lines.
I used phone where you picked up the handset and told the operator the number you wanted in 1982.
Quote from: kkt on December 15, 2022, 08:20:15 PM
Quote from: Poiponen13 on December 13, 2022, 12:38:58 PM
Quote from: SP Cook on December 13, 2022, 11:58:38 AM
There is obviously no reason to change zip codes.
As to area codes or phone numbers, the goofed up when they started all the overlays and area splits. They could have just gone to four numbers, adding a zero to all the area codes and then up from there and had an inexhaustible supply.
Zip codes would be nicer with letters.
If they had letters, they'd have to be careful not to assign offensive words to zip codes.
And what's not to say that the words they did assign become offensive sometime in the future? Language is always changing, and what is considered a simple derogatory term today could be a highly offensive slur in the future.
Quote from: kphoger on December 15, 2022, 03:39:56 PM
That may seem like ancient history to you, but my grandfather had a rotary telephone until the day he moved into a nursing home about twenty years ago.
I have a rotary dial telephone, and it still works, including the central office switch understanding the dial.
Quote from: CoreySamson on December 15, 2022, 08:31:52 PM
Quote from: kkt on December 15, 2022, 08:20:15 PM
Quote from: Poiponen13 on December 13, 2022, 12:38:58 PM
Quote from: SP Cook on December 13, 2022, 11:58:38 AM
There is obviously no reason to change zip codes.
As to area codes or phone numbers, the goofed up when they started all the overlays and area splits. They could have just gone to four numbers, adding a zero to all the area codes and then up from there and had an inexhaustible supply.
Zip codes would be nicer with letters.
If they had letters, they'd have to be careful not to assign offensive words to zip codes.
And what's not to say that the words they did assign become offensive sometime in the future? Language is always changing, and what is considered a simple derogatory term today could be a highly offensive slur in the future.
While it's much less likely to happen, numbers can and do become offensive sometimes too (it's just more awkward because we can't really stop using a number).
Quote from: kphoger on December 15, 2022, 03:39:56 PM
That may seem like ancient history to you, but my grandfather had a rotary telephone until the day he moved into a nursing home about twenty years ago.
Quote from: kkt on December 15, 2022, 08:37:30 PM
I have a rotary dial telephone, and it still works, including the central office switch understanding the dial.
My aunt that worked for Ma Bell still has a rotary dial as an emergency backup (I have one, but it is attached to a four-prong RCA connector block and I would need to cut it off in order to wire it in). I'm not sure why the telephone companies are still required to support pulse dial, but it is notable that many of the oldest touch-tone phones had a conversion switch that allows the phone to send pulse-dial signals (in the case of a failure on the touch-tone circuit board). I had an old touch-tone phone that I had to switch over to pulse-dial because one of the button tones failed.
Quote from: Scott5114 on December 15, 2022, 09:14:19 PM
Quote from: CoreySamson on December 15, 2022, 08:31:52 PM
Quote from: kkt on December 15, 2022, 08:20:15 PM
Quote from: Poiponen13 on December 13, 2022, 12:38:58 PM
Quote from: SP Cook on December 13, 2022, 11:58:38 AM
There is obviously no reason to change zip codes.
As to area codes or phone numbers, the goofed up when they started all the overlays and area splits. They could have just gone to four numbers, adding a zero to all the area codes and then up from there and had an inexhaustible supply.
Zip codes would be nicer with letters.
If they had letters, they'd have to be careful not to assign offensive words to zip codes.
And what's not to say that the words they did assign become offensive sometime in the future? Language is always changing, and what is considered a simple derogatory term today could be a highly offensive slur in the future.
While it's much less likely to happen, numbers can and do become offensive sometimes too (it's just more awkward because we can't really stop using a number).
Back in the '80s and '90s, I used to see bumper stickers with the phrase "How's my driving? Call 1-800-EAT-SHIT." I have to assume that the cops started cracking down on such language in public, since I haven't seen one this century.
Quote from: KeithE4Phx on December 15, 2022, 09:19:14 PM
Back in the '80s and '90s, I used to see bumper stickers with the phrase "How's my driving? Call 1-800-EAT-SHIT." I have to assume that the cops started cracking down on such language in public, since I haven't seen one this century.
Probably just that the company making them quit doing so. There's nothing actually illegal about profanity (courts have ruled the 1st Amendment generally includes the right to say things like "shit").
I've seen at least one of that exact bumper sticker within the last two months.
Quote from: Dirt Roads on December 15, 2022, 09:16:30 PM
Quote from: kphoger on December 15, 2022, 03:39:56 PM
That may seem like ancient history to you, but my grandfather had a rotary telephone until the day he moved into a nursing home about twenty years ago.
Quote from: kkt on December 15, 2022, 08:37:30 PM
I have a rotary dial telephone, and it still works, including the central office switch understanding the dial.
My aunt that worked for Ma Bell still has a rotary dial as an emergency backup (I have one, but it is attached to a four-prong RCA connector block and I would need to cut it off in order to wire it in). I'm not sure why the telephone companies are still required to support pulse dial, but it is notable that many of the oldest touch-tone phones had a conversion switch that allows the phone to send pulse-dial signals (in the case of a failure on the touch-tone circuit board). I had an old touch-tone phone that I had to switch over to pulse-dial because one of the button tones failed.
Back in the day - late 1970s, early 1980s or so - touch tone dialing was an extra cost service. The phone company (there was Only One) would charge you an extra dollar or something on your bill every month. Touch tone dialing would only work if you were forking over the loot. So many older phones had a switch to send pulse dial.
Nevermind that quicker dialing with touch-tone actually saved the phone company money, because the central office switch could read the numbers faster than pulse dial so they didn't need to keep the circuit open as long and didn't need as many circuits...
The first phone I had in my room when I was a kid in the early 2000s (a translucent green plastic thing) had a TONE/PULSE switch even at that late date.
Quote from: KeithE4Phx on December 15, 2022, 09:19:14 PM
Quote from: Scott5114 on December 15, 2022, 09:14:19 PM
Quote from: CoreySamson on December 15, 2022, 08:31:52 PM
Quote from: kkt on December 15, 2022, 08:20:15 PM
Quote from: Poiponen13 on December 13, 2022, 12:38:58 PM
Quote from: SP Cook on December 13, 2022, 11:58:38 AM
There is obviously no reason to change zip codes.
As to area codes or phone numbers, the goofed up when they started all the overlays and area splits. They could have just gone to four numbers, adding a zero to all the area codes and then up from there and had an inexhaustible supply.
Zip codes would be nicer with letters.
If they had letters, they'd have to be careful not to assign offensive words to zip codes.
And what's not to say that the words they did assign become offensive sometime in the future? Language is always changing, and what is considered a simple derogatory term today could be a highly offensive slur in the future.
While it's much less likely to happen, numbers can and do become offensive sometimes too (it's just more awkward because we can't really stop using a number).
Back in the '80s and '90s, I used to see bumper stickers with the phrase "How's my driving? Call 1-800-EAT-SHIT." I have to assume that the cops started cracking down on such language in public, since I haven't seen one this century.
Quite the opposite actually. People can put anything and everything on their vehicles, and they're constitutionally protected. 800-EAT-SHIT is tame by today's standards. There's plenty of other profanity people enjoy writing on their vehicles instead.
Germany didn't have touch tone dialing as late as the mid-1990s. They had number buttons but it was all pulse. The wild thing was, US phones would hook up and work just fine, just without the touch tone.
Quote from: kkt on December 15, 2022, 10:23:06 PM
Quote from: Dirt Roads on December 15, 2022, 09:16:30 PM
Quote from: kphoger on December 15, 2022, 03:39:56 PM
That may seem like ancient history to you, but my grandfather had a rotary telephone until the day he moved into a nursing home about twenty years ago.
Quote from: kkt on December 15, 2022, 08:37:30 PM
I have a rotary dial telephone, and it still works, including the central office switch understanding the dial.
My aunt that worked for Ma Bell still has a rotary dial as an emergency backup (I have one, but it is attached to a four-prong RCA connector block and I would need to cut it off in order to wire it in). I'm not sure why the telephone companies are still required to support pulse dial, but it is notable that many of the oldest touch-tone phones had a conversion switch that allows the phone to send pulse-dial signals (in the case of a failure on the touch-tone circuit board). I had an old touch-tone phone that I had to switch over to pulse-dial because one of the button tones failed.
Back in the day - late 1970s, early 1980s or so - touch tone dialing was an extra cost service. The phone company (there was Only One) would charge you an extra dollar or something on your bill every month. Touch tone dialing would only work if you were forking over the loot. So many older phones had a switch to send pulse dial.
Nevermind that quicker dialing with touch-tone actually saved the phone company money, because the central office switch could read the numbers faster than pulse dial so they didn't need to keep the circuit open as long and didn't need as many circuits...
Since a pulse phone is effectively picking up and hanging up the line, quickly, is it possible to dial a number by jiggling the switch-hook quickly, or make/breaking the line? seems like that could be useful in an emergency.
Trapped somewhere, and there's just a phone jack. Could you blind-dial 911 or something that way?
Quote from: Scott5114 on December 15, 2022, 09:14:19 PM
Quote from: CoreySamson on December 15, 2022, 08:31:52 PM
Quote from: kkt on December 15, 2022, 08:20:15 PM
Quote from: Poiponen13 on December 13, 2022, 12:38:58 PM
Quote from: SP Cook on December 13, 2022, 11:58:38 AM
There is obviously no reason to change zip codes.
As to area codes or phone numbers, the goofed up when they started all the overlays and area splits. They could have just gone to four numbers, adding a zero to all the area codes and then up from there and had an inexhaustible supply.
Zip codes would be nicer with letters.
If they had letters, they'd have to be careful not to assign offensive words to zip codes.
And what's not to say that the words they did assign become offensive sometime in the future? Language is always changing, and what is considered a simple derogatory term today could be a highly offensive slur in the future.
While it's much less likely to happen, numbers can and do become offensive sometimes too (it's just more awkward because we can't really stop using a number).
As an example of that, Jeopardy doesn't allow players to use certain numbers as wagers on Daily Doubles or in Final Jeopardy. The prohibited amounts are $69 (banned in 2018), $666, $14, $88, and $1488. Apparently the latter three numbers are associated with white supremacists. Wikipedia explains: "The primary slogan in the Fourteen Words is 'We must secure the existence of our people and a future for white children,' followed by the secondary slogan 'Because the beauty of the White Aryan woman must not perish from the earth.'" Apparently the "8"s in "1488" represent the eighth letter of the alphabet (H), with "HH" standing for "Heil Hitler." Of course, one might validly question whether the average white supremacist is intelligent enough to make it onto Jeopardy in the first place.
Interestingly, $420 is allowed.
Quote from: 1995hoo on December 16, 2022, 08:15:46 AM
Interestingly, $420 is allowed.
And used too frequently on The Price Is Right.
Quote from: zachary_amaryllis on December 16, 2022, 07:52:37 AM
Quote from: kkt on December 15, 2022, 10:23:06 PM
Quote from: Dirt Roads on December 15, 2022, 09:16:30 PM
Quote from: kphoger on December 15, 2022, 03:39:56 PM
That may seem like ancient history to you, but my grandfather had a rotary telephone until the day he moved into a nursing home about twenty years ago.
Quote from: kkt on December 15, 2022, 08:37:30 PM
I have a rotary dial telephone, and it still works, including the central office switch understanding the dial.
My aunt that worked for Ma Bell still has a rotary dial as an emergency backup (I have one, but it is attached to a four-prong RCA connector block and I would need to cut it off in order to wire it in). I'm not sure why the telephone companies are still required to support pulse dial, but it is notable that many of the oldest touch-tone phones had a conversion switch that allows the phone to send pulse-dial signals (in the case of a failure on the touch-tone circuit board). I had an old touch-tone phone that I had to switch over to pulse-dial because one of the button tones failed.
Back in the day - late 1970s, early 1980s or so - touch tone dialing was an extra cost service. The phone company (there was Only One) would charge you an extra dollar or something on your bill every month. Touch tone dialing would only work if you were forking over the loot. So many older phones had a switch to send pulse dial.
Nevermind that quicker dialing with touch-tone actually saved the phone company money, because the central office switch could read the numbers faster than pulse dial so they didn't need to keep the circuit open as long and didn't need as many circuits...
Since a pulse phone is effectively picking up and hanging up the line, quickly, is it possible to dial a number by jiggling the switch-hook quickly, or make/breaking the line? seems like that could be useful in an emergency.
Trapped somewhere, and there's just a phone jack. Could you blind-dial 911 or something that way?
It's possible but it's very sensitive to timing. Easier to dial a 1 or a 2 than a 9 or a 10. Getting good at it was a skill very few people bothered to acquire :)
Quote from: kkt on December 16, 2022, 09:21:39 AM
Quote from: zachary_amaryllis on December 16, 2022, 07:52:37 AM
Quote from: kkt on December 15, 2022, 10:23:06 PM
Quote from: Dirt Roads on December 15, 2022, 09:16:30 PM
Quote from: kphoger on December 15, 2022, 03:39:56 PM
That may seem like ancient history to you, but my grandfather had a rotary telephone until the day he moved into a nursing home about twenty years ago.
Quote from: kkt on December 15, 2022, 08:37:30 PM
I have a rotary dial telephone, and it still works, including the central office switch understanding the dial.
My aunt that worked for Ma Bell still has a rotary dial as an emergency backup (I have one, but it is attached to a four-prong RCA connector block and I would need to cut it off in order to wire it in). I'm not sure why the telephone companies are still required to support pulse dial, but it is notable that many of the oldest touch-tone phones had a conversion switch that allows the phone to send pulse-dial signals (in the case of a failure on the touch-tone circuit board). I had an old touch-tone phone that I had to switch over to pulse-dial because one of the button tones failed.
Back in the day - late 1970s, early 1980s or so - touch tone dialing was an extra cost service. The phone company (there was Only One) would charge you an extra dollar or something on your bill every month. Touch tone dialing would only work if you were forking over the loot. So many older phones had a switch to send pulse dial.
Nevermind that quicker dialing with touch-tone actually saved the phone company money, because the central office switch could read the numbers faster than pulse dial so they didn't need to keep the circuit open as long and didn't need as many circuits...
Since a pulse phone is effectively picking up and hanging up the line, quickly, is it possible to dial a number by jiggling the switch-hook quickly, or make/breaking the line? seems like that could be useful in an emergency.
Trapped somewhere, and there's just a phone jack. Could you blind-dial 911 or something that way?
It's possible but it's very sensitive to timing. Easier to dial a 1 or a 2 than a 9 or a 10. Getting good at it was a skill very few people bothered to acquire :)
Back in the modem days, I used to play with one of the S-registers (S11, iirc) that governed some parameter of tone dialing, and see how low I could set it, and still be able to successfully dial. Around here you could set it quite low, and dial a phone number blazingly fast.
Quote from: zachary_amaryllis on December 16, 2022, 07:52:37 AM
Since a pulse phone is effectively picking up and hanging up the line, quickly, is it possible to dial a number by jiggling the switch-hook quickly, or make/breaking the line? seems like that could be useful in an emergency.
Trapped somewhere, and there's just a phone jack. Could you blind-dial 911 or something that way?
Quote from: kkt on December 16, 2022, 09:21:39 AM
It's possible but it's very sensitive to timing. Easier to dial a 1 or a 2 than a 9 or a 10. Getting good at it was a skill very few people bothered to acquire :)
Agreed. In my days on the railroad, I worked alongside the very last remaining section of Western Union telegraph line. Every railroad office was equipped with a telegraph drop and we could use the line for either direct-drop telephone voice service or telegraph service. Each station was assigned a two-digit touch-tone address (followed by the pound key), or an old-timey three-pulse telegraph code. Most of the stations still had hand cranks, and unless it was an emergency, we were expected to hand-crank the codes (even for voice calls). There was a ring-back tone on the line if the code was accepted at the other end. My office was historically the second-most important (signal supervisor), so the code was two shorts and one long. Even these simple crank codes took a little bit of practice to get proficient at.
All of this reminds me why I still wonder about why the landlines still have pulse-dial service. These hand-crank pulses require a 100VDC current carrier. Until recently, we've had big issues out here in the sticks with high resistance on the landline circuits. We can still take an old-timey pulse dial phone to "crank out" the high resistance in the circuit, but if you ever make the mistake of starting out with a long zero you might get hit with a "411 Charge" for a call to the operator. :pan:
Quote from: Dirt Roads on December 15, 2022, 09:16:30 PM
I'm not sure why the telephone companies are still required to support pulse dial
Quote from: Dirt Roads on December 16, 2022, 09:45:40 AM
All of this reminds me why I still wonder about why the landlines still have pulse-dial service.
I mean, we've already identified at least two people on this thread alone who own a rotary phone. AFAIK, there isn't any data out there on how many people are still using them, but it's obviously a non-zero number.
Quote from: zachary_amaryllis on December 16, 2022, 07:52:37 AM
Since a pulse phone is effectively picking up and hanging up the line, quickly, is it possible to dial a number by jiggling the switch-hook quickly, or make/breaking the line? seems like that could be useful in an emergency.
Similarly, I once met a kid whose dad had produced and recorded the DTMF signal for all ten digits of touch-tone dialing onto his computer or whatever. Reportedly, he could then arrange them into a phone number sequence, play them back into a handheld telephone receiver, and it would place the call–no buttons required. I'm not sure that would work in the age of cell phones.
Quote from: zachary_amaryllis on December 16, 2022, 07:52:37 AM
Since a pulse phone is effectively picking up and hanging up the line, quickly, is it possible to dial a number by jiggling the switch-hook quickly, or make/breaking the line? seems like that could be useful in an emergency.
Quote from: kphoger on December 16, 2022, 10:27:06 AM
Similarly, I once met a kid whose dad had produced and recorded the DTMF signal for all ten digits of touch-tone dialing onto his computer or whatever. Reportedly, he could then arrange them into a phone number sequence, play them back into a handheld telephone receiver, and it would place the call–no buttons required. I'm not sure that would work in the age of cell phones.
Somewhere in my DOS world, I still have a freeware PIM program that did the same exact thing via the old dial-up modem on my computer. I found that I could manipulate the code sequence to playback my home answering machine without actually walking the five feet across the room to push the buttons manually. Ah, those were the good ole' lazy days of computers.
Quote from: Dirt Roads on December 16, 2022, 10:56:36 AM
Somewhere in my DOS world, I still have a freeware PIM program that did the same exact thing via the old dial-up modem on my computer. I found that I could manipulate the code sequence to playback my home answering machine without actually walking the five feet across the room to push the buttons manually. Ah, those were the good ole' lazy days of computers.
I wonder if running that program on a Pentium computer would cause the tones to play lightning fast instead.
When I was a kid, I grew up playing Blockbuster on 5¼" floppy disk. Fifteen or twenty years ago, I missed playing it, so I downloaded a bootleg copy for DOS/CmdPrompt and tried playing on a P3 computer. The game was over within four seconds. So then I downloaded Mo'Slo and did trial-and-error until I found what percentage of OS speed was needed to make the game playable (only whole numbers allowed). As I recall, I had to slow it down to 7% or 8%. I'm sure even 1% would be too fast on today's computers.
Depends how they wrote the timing loops... there are portable and nonportable ways to write them. For a DOS game, though, I would not have super high expectations.
Quote from: 1995hoo on December 16, 2022, 08:15:46 AM
Quote from: Scott5114 on December 15, 2022, 09:14:19 PM
Quote from: CoreySamson on December 15, 2022, 08:31:52 PM
Quote from: kkt on December 15, 2022, 08:20:15 PM
Quote from: Poiponen13 on December 13, 2022, 12:38:58 PM
Quote from: SP Cook on December 13, 2022, 11:58:38 AM
There is obviously no reason to change zip codes.
As to area codes or phone numbers, the goofed up when they started all the overlays and area splits. They could have just gone to four numbers, adding a zero to all the area codes and then up from there and had an inexhaustible supply.
Zip codes would be nicer with letters.
If they had letters, they'd have to be careful not to assign offensive words to zip codes.
And what's not to say that the words they did assign become offensive sometime in the future? Language is always changing, and what is considered a simple derogatory term today could be a highly offensive slur in the future.
While it's much less likely to happen, numbers can and do become offensive sometimes too (it's just more awkward because we can't really stop using a number).
As an example of that, Jeopardy doesn't allow players to use certain numbers as wagers on Daily Doubles or in Final Jeopardy. The prohibited amounts are $69 (banned in 2018), $666, $14, $88, and $1488. [...] Interestingly, $420 is allowed.
Yep, those are the numbers I was thinking of when I made that post.
And, hey, you may not be able to wager $666, but you
can wager $491. Unless Ken is wise to that from his time spent on the forum. ;)
From what I understand, he didn't make the rule, the producers did. Supposedly he bet $69 at least once, though I don't have the patience to click through J-Archive trying to find when it was.
Quote from: kphoger on December 16, 2022, 11:06:41 AM
Quote from: Dirt Roads on December 16, 2022, 10:56:36 AM
Somewhere in my DOS world, I still have a freeware PIM program that did the same exact thing via the old dial-up modem on my computer. I found that I could manipulate the code sequence to playback my home answering machine without actually walking the five feet across the room to push the buttons manually. Ah, those were the good ole' lazy days of computers.
I wonder if running that program on a Pentium computer would cause the tones to play lightning fast instead.
When I was a kid, I grew up playing Blockbuster on 5¼" floppy disk. Fifteen or twenty years ago, I missed playing it, so I downloaded a bootleg copy for DOS/CmdPrompt and tried playing on a P3 computer. The game was over within four seconds. So then I downloaded Mo'Slo and did trial-and-error until I found what percentage of OS speed was needed to make the game playable (only whole numbers allowed). As I recall, I had to slow it down to 7% or 8%. I'm sure even 1% would be too fast on today's computers.
There is a program called DOSBox (https://www.dosbox.com/) that emulates an entire DOS system, including the typical processor speed (which you can adjust up and down if need be), specifically for running old games, although you can run stuff like ancient office software too.
Quote from: Poiponen13 on December 13, 2022, 01:29:27 PM
Quote from: skluth on December 13, 2022, 01:01:10 PM
Quote from: Poiponen13 on December 13, 2022, 12:38:58 PM
Quote from: SP Cook on December 13, 2022, 11:58:38 AM
There is obviously no reason to change zip codes.
As to area codes or phone numbers, the goofed up when they started all the overlays and area splits. They could have just gone to four numbers, adding a zero to all the area codes and then up from there and had an inexhaustible supply.
Zip codes would be nicer with letters.
Why? You keep saying it would be better or nicer but give no reasons. Unless you have a reason, you're just trolling. Again.
I like letters as identifiers very greatly.
Move to Canada! I believe that basically all of their postal codes contain letters.
Quote from: Dirt Roads on December 16, 2022, 10:56:36 AM
Somewhere in my DOS world, I still have a freeware PIM program that did the same exact thing via the old dial-up modem on my computer. I found that I could manipulate the code sequence to playback my home answering machine without actually walking the five feet across the room to push the buttons manually. Ah, those were the good ole' lazy days of computers.
Quote from: kphoger on December 16, 2022, 11:06:41 AM
I wonder if running that program on a Pentium computer would cause the tones to play lightning fast instead.
Many of those programs ran way too fast on my old Turbo 8086 machine, and they were lightning fast on my first 386. I don't recall trying to use any commercial software packages that weren't certified for computers that could run Windows, so I don't know if the tones (plus voice and other sounds) would have been too fast.
Quote from: algorerhythms on December 14, 2022, 09:49:16 AM
Quote from: zachary_amaryllis on December 14, 2022, 08:34:15 AM
Quote from: Scott5114 on December 13, 2022, 07:01:17 PM
The zip code system actually has eleven digits: the base five digits that everyone is familiar with, then the plus-four code that you can include if you want, and then there's a two-digit "delivery point" code that is basically only ever used by USPS. Put it all together and you have an eleven-digit code that uniquely identifies every mailbox in the United States.
What possible change could even be needed, especially when there are loads of five-digit ZIPs that have yet to be allocated, and the eleven-digit codes allow for a million addresses in each ZIP?
Tested this theory when I was a kid, living in Rescue, VA. I had my father here in Colorado send a letter addressed to nothing more than 'Rescue VA 23424-0014", from [his zip+4]. It got to me. To be fair, Rescue is a small, non-delivery post office, but yeah, it does seem to work.
The only thing I wonder about, is that here, addresses on one side of the street have one +4, and the other side has a different one. Every house (from what I've seen) on the same side, has the same +4.
The post office is surprisingly good at finding where mail is supposed to go. While I was living in Norman, OK, the state of Maryland, in its infinite wisdom, once sent me a letter addressed to {my name}, {correct street number, misspelled street}, Norman's Island, MD {incorrect zip code that corresponds to a random small town in Texas}. The letter actually managed to arrive.
When I lived in Virginia, my address was Rt 1, Box 564C (don't worry, it's since gotten a proper address). I had several pieces of mail simply addressed as [name] Rt 1, Appomattox, and they got to me.
Rural route addresses were fun. When I was growing up, ours was Route 1 Box 31B1. We lived at the beginning of the street, so our across-the-street neighbors were box 31B1A, next door was 31B1B, diagonally across was 31B1C, and so on down the street to 31B1W.
Quote from: 6a on December 20, 2022, 08:45:47 PM
When I lived in Virginia, my address was Rt 1, Box 564C (don't worry, it's since gotten a proper address). I had several pieces of mail simply addressed as [name] Rt 1, Appomattox, and they got to me.
My mom once received a thank-you letter addressed to "Nurse Sue / Atwood, KS". And it got to her just fine.
Quote from: Scott5114 on December 20, 2022, 09:16:11 PM
Rural route addresses were fun. When I was growing up, ours was Route 1 Box 31B1. We lived at the beginning of the street, so our across-the-street neighbors were box 31B1A, next door was 31B1B, diagonally across was 31B1C, and so on down the street to 31B1W.
Growing up in Lancaster County PA in the 1960's, may family's address was something like:
John Q. Public
R.D. #1
Quarryville PA 17566
and mail got to us just fine, just based on the address name. The "R.D." stood for "Rural Delivery". At the time our road did not have a name, nor the house a number. (It has both now). Likewise our phone number was of the form: KI(mball) 8-1234 (fake last 4 digits). And it was a party line.
Quote from: dlsterner on December 21, 2022, 05:49:01 PM
Quote from: Scott5114 on December 20, 2022, 09:16:11 PM
Rural route addresses were fun. When I was growing up, ours was Route 1 Box 31B1. We lived at the beginning of the street, so our across-the-street neighbors were box 31B1A, next door was 31B1B, diagonally across was 31B1C, and so on down the street to 31B1W.
Growing up in Lancaster County PA in the 1960's, may family's address was something like:
John Q. Public
R.D. #1
Quarryville PA 17566
and mail got to us just fine, just based on the address name. The "R.D." stood for "Rural Delivery". At the time our road did not have a name, nor the house a number. (It has both now). Likewise our phone number was of the form: KI(mball) 8-1234 (fake last 4 digits). And it was a party line.
I expect someone who has had an apartment in suburban Salt Lake City to beat this pretty easily, but when I lived in Austin, TX, I had 10 digits in my address without the postal code. It was something like "18350 IH-35 Rm 525".
https://www.cpuc.ca.gov/industries-and-topics/internet-and-phone/area-codes-and-numbering/707-area-code
https://www.cpuc.ca.gov/209areacode
Here are updates to California's area codes.
707 which covers an area as far south as Benicia to the Redwood Coast and the Oregon border will get an overlay area code as 369 in 2023. This is one of 14 areas of California where the area code is in an overlay.
Quote from: michravera on December 23, 2022, 11:38:43 AM
Quote from: dlsterner on December 21, 2022, 05:49:01 PM
Quote from: Scott5114 on December 20, 2022, 09:16:11 PM
Rural route addresses were fun. When I was growing up, ours was Route 1 Box 31B1. We lived at the beginning of the street, so our across-the-street neighbors were box 31B1A, next door was 31B1B, diagonally across was 31B1C, and so on down the street to 31B1W.
Growing up in Lancaster County PA in the 1960's, may family's address was something like:
John Q. Public
R.D. #1
Quarryville PA 17566
and mail got to us just fine, just based on the address name. The "R.D." stood for "Rural Delivery". At the time our road did not have a name, nor the house a number. (It has both now). Likewise our phone number was of the form: KI(mball) 8-1234 (fake last 4 digits). And it was a party line.
I expect someone who has had an apartment in suburban Salt Lake City to beat this pretty easily, but when I lived in Austin, TX, I had 10 digits in my address without the postal code. It was something like "18350 IH-35 Rm 525".
Certain suburbs of Milwaukee use a grid system for the numerical portion, such as W150N10000 Street Name. The first part being athe block number crossing the street and the second being the actual address.
Quote from: Big John on December 23, 2022, 01:58:47 PM
Quote from: michravera on December 23, 2022, 11:38:43 AM
Quote from: dlsterner on December 21, 2022, 05:49:01 PM
Quote from: Scott5114 on December 20, 2022, 09:16:11 PM
Rural route addresses were fun. When I was growing up, ours was Route 1 Box 31B1. We lived at the beginning of the street, so our across-the-street neighbors were box 31B1A, next door was 31B1B, diagonally across was 31B1C, and so on down the street to 31B1W.
Growing up in Lancaster County PA in the 1960's, may family's address was something like:
John Q. Public
R.D. #1
Quarryville PA 17566
and mail got to us just fine, just based on the address name. The "R.D." stood for "Rural Delivery". At the time our road did not have a name, nor the house a number. (It has both now). Likewise our phone number was of the form: KI(mball) 8-1234 (fake last 4 digits). And it was a party line.
I expect someone who has had an apartment in suburban Salt Lake City to beat this pretty easily, but when I lived in Austin, TX, I had 10 digits in my address without the postal code. It was something like "18350 IH-35 Rm 525".
Certain suburbs of Milwaukee use a grid system for the numerical portion, such as W150N10000 Street Name. The first part being athe block number crossing the street and the second being the actual address.
Ans yet most of those suburbs base those grids on the Milwaukee city street address grid. I have always found those addresses to be needlessly confusing (violating the 'KISS' principal).
MIKE
Quote from: Poiponen13 on December 14, 2022, 06:32:04 AM
US and Canadian telephone numbering system should have clusters in area codes. Such as 2 in east, 9 in west. And area codes should be both 3 and 4-digit.
Perhaps you need to learn some area code history. There was a rhyme and reason to the area codes when they were introduced in 1947.
States that had a 0 in the middle were states that only had 1 area code assigned at that time. States with a 1 in the middle had multiple.
Once the 1s and 0s were gone, that's when they started assigning numbers with a middle number of 3-9.
Quote from: mgk920 on December 24, 2022, 11:25:30 AM
Quote from: Big John on December 23, 2022, 01:58:47 PM
Quote from: michravera on December 23, 2022, 11:38:43 AM
Quote from: dlsterner on December 21, 2022, 05:49:01 PM
Quote from: Scott5114 on December 20, 2022, 09:16:11 PM
Rural route addresses were fun. When I was growing up, ours was Route 1 Box 31B1. We lived at the beginning of the street, so our across-the-street neighbors were box 31B1A, next door was 31B1B, diagonally across was 31B1C, and so on down the street to 31B1W.
Growing up in Lancaster County PA in the 1960's, may family's address was something like:
John Q. Public
R.D. #1
Quarryville PA 17566
and mail got to us just fine, just based on the address name. The "R.D." stood for "Rural Delivery". At the time our road did not have a name, nor the house a number. (It has both now). Likewise our phone number was of the form: KI(mball) 8-1234 (fake last 4 digits). And it was a party line.
I expect someone who has had an apartment in suburban Salt Lake City to beat this pretty easily, but when I lived in Austin, TX, I had 10 digits in my address without the postal code. It was something like "18350 IH-35 Rm 525".
Certain suburbs of Milwaukee use a grid system for the numerical portion, such as W150N10000 Street Name. The first part being athe block number crossing the street and the second being the actual address.
Ans yet most of those suburbs base those grids on the Milwaukee city street address grid. I have always found those addresses to be needlessly confusing (violating the 'KISS' principal).
MIKE
The rural system in Northern Illinois is based on the location the address is in relation to the corner of State St & Madison St in Chicago. For example, an address of 42W855 Hwy 64 means you are 42 miles west of State St within the 800 block. I know this is widely used in Cook, DuPage, Kane, Kendall, Lake, McHenry & Will Counties but I don't know how far south or west it is used.
Quote from: SP Cook on December 14, 2022, 08:34:42 AM
Quote from: Poiponen13 on December 14, 2022, 06:32:04 AM
US and Canadian telephone numbering system should have clusters in area codes. Such as 2 in east, 9 in west. And area codes should be both 3 and 4-digit.
Actually no. If you look at the original map, understand the population at the time (1947, before the great migration to the South) and understand how dial telephones work(ed) you understand the system.
The middle digit had to be a 0 or a 1. 0s were assigned to jurisdictions that had only one area code, 1s to places with multiple ones. Look at the dial. The smallest number of clicks thus went to New York City, 212 followed by LA 213, Chicage 312, etc. The smallest single jurisdiction area code went to New Jersey 201, followed by DC 202. the longest combinations went to places like west Texas, the Canadian Maritimes, Vermont and all those farm states in the Midwest.
Note that no southern state, unless you count Texas, had more than one area code. That is how few people lived in Florida, for example, before air conditioning and the wise use of fossil energy to power it.
Quote from: hobsini2 on December 24, 2022, 03:07:11 PM
Quote from: Poiponen13 on December 14, 2022, 06:32:04 AM
US and Canadian telephone numbering system should have clusters in area codes. Such as 2 in east, 9 in west. And area codes should be both 3 and 4-digit.
Perhaps you need to learn some area code history. There was a rhyme and reason to the area codes when they were introduced in 1947.
States that had a 0 in the middle were states that only had 1 area code assigned at that time. States with a 1 in the middle had multiple.
Once the 1s and 0s were gone, that's when they started assigning numbers with a middle number of 3-9.
Think we're getting through to him? :spin:
I'll throw Mexico's system in for kicks. Phone numbers are ten digits, just as in the USA. Most phone numbers have a 3-digit area code and a 7-digit local number, just as in the USA. However, the three most populous urban areas (Mexico City, Guadalajara, Monterrey) have a 2-digit area code and an 8-digit local number. In the past, this actually mattered. To dial a local number within Monterrey, for example, one used to dial ####-####. To dial Monterrey from outside the area, one would dial 01-81-####-####. However, since 2019, 10-digit dialing has been implemented nationwide and all prefixes done away with (except for 00 for international calls). Therefore, to call a number in Monterrey, no matter where in Mexico you're calling from, it's just 81-####-#### now.
The result of this is that Mexico City, Guadalajara, and Monterrey functionally now have clustered area codes:
Mexico City
Area code, technically = 55 and 56
Area code cluster, functionally = 550 through 569
Guadalajara
Area code, technically = 33
Area code cluster, functionally = 330 through 339
Monterrey
Area code, technically = 81
Area code cluster, functionally = 810 through 819
Having said that, I should also point out that area codes are grouped geographically by first digit:
2##-###-#### – Eastern Mexico
3##-###-#### – Western Mexico
33-####-#### – Guadalajara, which is in western Mexico4##-###-#### – North-central Mexico
5##-###-#### – Near Mexico City
55-####-#### – Mexico City metro area
56-####-#### – Mexico City metro area6##-###-#### – Northwestern Mexico
7##-###-#### – Southern Mexico
8##-###-#### – Northeastern Mexico
81-####-#### – Monterrey, which is in northeastern Mexico9##-###-#### – Southeastern Mexico
Quote from: bing101 on December 23, 2022, 11:58:23 AM
https://www.cpuc.ca.gov/industries-and-topics/internet-and-phone/area-codes-and-numbering/707-area-code
https://www.cpuc.ca.gov/209areacode
Here are updates to California's area codes.
707 which covers an area as far south as Benicia to the Redwood Coast and the Oregon border will get an overlay area code as 369 in 2023. This is one of 14 areas of California where the area code is in an overlay.
And to think California once only had 3 area codes. 213 for LA-Bakersfield-San Diego, 415 for the Bay-Sacramento-Fresno and 916 for Northern Cali. :)
Quote from: kphoger on December 24, 2022, 03:50:57 PM
Quote from: SP Cook on December 14, 2022, 08:34:42 AM
Quote from: Poiponen13 on December 14, 2022, 06:32:04 AM
US and Canadian telephone numbering system should have clusters in area codes. Such as 2 in east, 9 in west. And area codes should be both 3 and 4-digit.
Actually no. If you look at the original map, understand the population at the time (1947, before the great migration to the South) and understand how dial telephones work(ed) you understand the system.
The middle digit had to be a 0 or a 1. 0s were assigned to jurisdictions that had only one area code, 1s to places with multiple ones. Look at the dial. The smallest number of clicks thus went to New York City, 212 followed by LA 213, Chicage 312, etc. The smallest single jurisdiction area code went to New Jersey 201, followed by DC 202. the longest combinations went to places like west Texas, the Canadian Maritimes, Vermont and all those farm states in the Midwest.
Note that no southern state, unless you count Texas, had more than one area code. That is how few people lived in Florida, for example, before air conditioning and the wise use of fossil energy to power it.
Quote from: hobsini2 on December 24, 2022, 03:07:11 PM
Quote from: Poiponen13 on December 14, 2022, 06:32:04 AM
US and Canadian telephone numbering system should have clusters in area codes. Such as 2 in east, 9 in west. And area codes should be both 3 and 4-digit.
Perhaps you need to learn some area code history. There was a rhyme and reason to the area codes when they were introduced in 1947.
States that had a 0 in the middle were states that only had 1 area code assigned at that time. States with a 1 in the middle had multiple.
Once the 1s and 0s were gone, that's when they started assigning numbers with a middle number of 3-9.
Think we're getting through to him? :spin:
I'll throw Mexico's system in for kicks. Phone numbers are ten digits, just as in the USA. Most phone numbers have a 3-digit area code and a 7-digit local number, just as in the USA. However, the three most populous urban areas (Mexico City, Guadalajara, Monterrey) have a 2-digit area code and an 8-digit local number. In the past, this actually mattered. To dial a local number within Monterrey, for example, one used to dial ####-####. To dial Monterrey from outside the area, one would dial 01-81-####-####. However, since 2019, 10-digit dialing has been implemented nationwide and all prefixes done away with (except for 00 for international calls). Therefore, to call a number in Monterrey, no matter where in Mexico you're calling from, it's just 81-####-#### now.
The result of this is that Mexico City, Guadalajara, and Monterrey functionally now have clustered area codes:
Mexico City
Area code, technically = 55 and 56
Area code cluster, functionally = 550 through 569
Guadalajara
Area code, technically = 33
Area code cluster, functionally = 330 through 339
Monterrey
Area code, technically = 81
Area code cluster, functionally = 810 through 819
Having said that, I should also point out that area codes are grouped geographically by first digit:
2##-###-#### – Eastern Mexico
3##-###-#### – Western Mexico
33-####-#### – Guadalajara, which is in western Mexico
4##-###-#### – North-central Mexico
5##-###-#### – Near Mexico City
55-####-#### – Mexico City metro area
56-####-#### – Mexico City metro area
6##-###-#### – Northwestern Mexico
7##-###-#### – Southern Mexico
8##-###-#### – Northeastern Mexico
81-####-#### – Monterrey, which is in northeastern Mexico
9##-###-#### – Southeastern Mexico
US system should have following rules:
2##-###-#### – NY, CT, RI, MA, VT, NH, ME; QC, NB, PE, NS, NL
3##-###-#### – PA, MD, DC, VA, WV, NC, SC, GA, FL
4##-###-#### – OH, MI, IN, KY, TN, MS, AL; ON
5##-###-#### – IL, WI, MN, IA, MO, AR, LA
6##-###-#### – ND, SD, NE, KS, OK, TX; SK, MB
7##-###-#### – MT, ID, WY, CO, UT, NM, AZ; AB
8##-###-#### – OR, WA; BC, YT, NT, NU
9##-###-#### – CA; Caribbean
Quote from: Poiponen13 on December 25, 2022, 07:30:20 AM
US system should have following rules:
2##-###-#### – NY, CT, RI, MA, VT, NH, ME; QC, NB, PE, NS, NL
3##-###-#### – PA, MD, DC, VA, WV, NC, SC, GA, FL
4##-###-#### – OH, MI, IN, KY, TN, MS, AL; ON
5##-###-#### – IL, WI, MN, IA, MO, AR, LA
6##-###-#### – ND, SD, NE, KS, OK, TX; SK, MB
7##-###-#### – MT, ID, WY, CO, UT, NM, AZ; AB
8##-###-#### – OR, WA; BC, YT, NT, NU
9##-###-#### – CA; Caribbean
If that was implemented in 1947 (when the plan first took effect), the western states would have complained about their numbers taking longer to dial.
Quote from: GaryV on December 25, 2022, 07:40:57 AM
Quote from: Poiponen13 on December 25, 2022, 07:30:20 AM
US system should have following rules:
You missed a few.
I missed Alaska and Hawaii. Alaska could be 8 and Hawaii 9.
Quote from: 1 on December 25, 2022, 07:36:45 AM
Quote from: Poiponen13 on December 25, 2022, 07:30:20 AM
US system should have following rules:
2##-###-#### – NY, CT, RI, MA, VT, NH, ME; QC, NB, PE, NS, NL
3##-###-#### – PA, MD, DC, VA, WV, NC, SC, GA, FL
4##-###-#### – OH, MI, IN, KY, TN, MS, AL; ON
5##-###-#### – IL, WI, MN, IA, MO, AR, LA
6##-###-#### – ND, SD, NE, KS, OK, TX; SK, MB
7##-###-#### – MT, ID, WY, CO, UT, NM, AZ; AB
8##-###-#### – OR, WA; BC, YT, NT, NU
9##-###-#### – CA; Caribbean
If that was implemented in 1947 (when the plan first took effect), the western states would have complained about their numbers taking longer to dial.
And NJ and DE would've complained they had to use smoke signals and carrier pigeons since they're not on the list.
You know, that isn't too different from the ZIP code system we have now. The difference is that it takes the same time to write or type a 1 or 9.
Quote from: jeffandnicole on December 25, 2022, 08:22:28 AM
Quote from: 1 on December 25, 2022, 07:36:45 AM
Quote from: Poiponen13 on December 25, 2022, 07:30:20 AM
US system should have following rules:
2##-###-#### – NY, CT, RI, MA, VT, NH, ME; QC, NB, PE, NS, NL
3##-###-#### – PA, MD, DC, VA, WV, NC, SC, GA, FL
4##-###-#### – OH, MI, IN, KY, TN, MS, AL; ON
5##-###-#### – IL, WI, MN, IA, MO, AR, LA
6##-###-#### – ND, SD, NE, KS, OK, TX; SK, MB
7##-###-#### – MT, ID, WY, CO, UT, NM, AZ; AB
8##-###-#### – OR, WA; BC, YT, NT, NU
9##-###-#### – CA; Caribbean
If that was implemented in 1947 (when the plan first took effect), the western states would have complained about their numbers taking longer to dial.
And NJ and DE would've complained they had to use smoke signals and carrier pigeons since they're not on the list.
NJ, DE would be 3.
Quote from: 1 on December 25, 2022, 07:36:45 AM
Quote from: Poiponen13 on December 25, 2022, 07:30:20 AM
US system should have following rules:
2##-###-#### – NY, CT, RI, MA, VT, NH, ME; QC, NB, PE, NS, NL
3##-###-#### – PA, MD, DC, VA, WV, NC, SC, GA, FL
4##-###-#### – OH, MI, IN, KY, TN, MS, AL; ON
5##-###-#### – IL, WI, MN, IA, MO, AR, LA
6##-###-#### – ND, SD, NE, KS, OK, TX; SK, MB
7##-###-#### – MT, ID, WY, CO, UT, NM, AZ; AB
8##-###-#### – OR, WA; BC, YT, NT, NU
9##-###-#### – CA; Caribbean
If that was implemented in 1947 (when the plan first took effect), the western states would have complained about their numbers taking longer to dial.
Guy who lives in 970, with a nearly-equally high-numbered prefix concurs. This would have been a bitch with rotary phones, especially since we're now 10-digit dialing here.
Quote from: kphoger on December 15, 2022, 03:39:56 PM
Quote from: Poiponen13 on December 14, 2022, 06:14:44 AM
What about all-letter telephone numbers?
So... you want telephones to have 36 dialing keys? 26 letters plus 10 numerals? That sounds like an absolutely terrible idea.
Quote from: Poiponen13 on December 14, 2022, 06:32:04 AM
US and Canadian telephone numbering system should have clusters in area codes. Such as 2 in east, 9 in west. And area codes should be both 3 and 4-digit.
As has already been explained, the numbers were assigned so that, when dialing a rotary telephone, major population centers required the lowest number of clicks. That may seem like ancient history to you, but my grandfather had a rotary telephone until the day he moved into a nursing home about twenty years ago.
Quote from: vdeane on December 14, 2022, 09:01:27 PM
Perhaps we should start using overly long numbers, like 01189998819991197253.
International dialing isn't all that much better. My best friend's phone number is saved in my contacts list as 01152#421081619 (one digit redacted for obvious reasons).
Quote from: Dirt Roads on December 14, 2022, 10:26:50 PM
Quote from: Road Hog on December 14, 2022, 01:51:36 AM
We are a few decades away, but we will at some point run out of viable phone number combinations in North America. Adding a digit will solve this.
Quote from: MikeTheActuary on December 14, 2022, 11:06:48 AM
The North American Numbering Plan contemplates this.
You may have noticed that there are no area codes with "9" in the second position. This is to support a future expansion of the dialing plan to 11 or 12 digits.
The phone number +1 213 555 1212 could become +1 2913 555 1212 or +1 2913 n555 1212 (where n is a numeral from 2-9) when expansion is implemented.
I'm not sure that the original North
[size=78%]American Numbering Plan ever envisioned a fully programmable telephone environment. My aunt was the developer of the computer network architecture (and changes) that were a prerequisite for the Baby Bell breakup (which became the official Local Area Transport Area map). Back then, there were still too many hard-wired PBX and PABX switching systems to conceive a change to the numbering plan.[/size]
He didn't claim that the original NANP contemplated it. He said that the NANP contemplates it. That is to say, when the list of viable area codes was expanded to include digits other than 0 and 1 in the middle position, they left out the number 9 with such a reason specifically in mind.
Phone numbers could have
check digit. Like +1 213 555 1212 would become +1 213 555 12128.The check digit would be assigned in following way:1. Numbers are multiplied with 1, 2, 1, 2, 1, 2, 1, 2, 1, 2 beginning from left. 2. Results are added together.3. The check digit is a number which is to be added to number to have it divisible by 10.License plates could also have check digits.
Quote from: Poiponen13 on December 25, 2022, 08:58:12 AM
Quote from: jeffandnicole on December 25, 2022, 08:22:28 AM
Quote from: 1 on December 25, 2022, 07:36:45 AM
Quote from: Poiponen13 on December 25, 2022, 07:30:20 AM
US system should have following rules:
2##-###-#### – NY, CT, RI, MA, VT, NH, ME; QC, NB, PE, NS, NL
3##-###-#### – PA, MD, DC, VA, WV, NC, SC, GA, FL
4##-###-#### – OH, MI, IN, KY, TN, MS, AL; ON
5##-###-#### – IL, WI, MN, IA, MO, AR, LA
6##-###-#### – ND, SD, NE, KS, OK, TX; SK, MB
7##-###-#### – MT, ID, WY, CO, UT, NM, AZ; AB
8##-###-#### – OR, WA; BC, YT, NT, NU
9##-###-#### – CA; Caribbean
If that was implemented in 1947 (when the plan first took effect), the western states would have complained about their numbers taking longer to dial.
And NJ and DE would've complained they had to use smoke signals and carrier pigeons since they're not on the list.
NJ, DE would be 3.
What happens in Vegas stays in Vegas, because there's no way to get them on the phone.
Quote from: kphoger on December 20, 2022, 10:02:18 PM
Quote from: 6a on December 20, 2022, 08:45:47 PM
When I lived in Virginia, my address was Rt 1, Box 564C (don't worry, it's since gotten a proper address). I had several pieces of mail simply addressed as [name] Rt 1, Appomattox, and they got to me.
My mom once received a thank-you letter addressed to "Nurse Sue / Atwood, KS". And it got to her just fine.
I think the Dead Letter Office takes it personally that they can deliver every piece possible, no matter how scanty the address.
Oh Poiponen. Have you looked at a census map? Specifically how much pop change nationally there has been since 1947? In 1940, the national pop was 132 Million. In just 20 years, that jumped to 179 million in 1960. We hit more than double the 1940 pop in 2000 with 281 million. The last census now has the US at 331 million. Nearly tripled. In the last 50 years, Florida, Nevada, Arizona and Utah have the highest growth rates. And while the Rust Belt states have not grown as much, they also have increased.
Here's a fun fact for you. There are more people who live in Will County IL (650k), my home county, than there are people in the whole states of Wyoming and Vermont. DuPage County IL (930k) has more than Alaska, North Dakota and South Dakota.
The point is area codes are an "on demand" deal. Nobody in 1950 would have predicted cell phones and a population boom in the West and South.
Now if you want to "redo" the system, be my guest with that fool's errand. Just keep the historical context.
Quote from: Scott5114 on December 25, 2022, 03:21:04 PM
Quote from: Poiponen13 on December 25, 2022, 08:58:12 AM
Quote from: jeffandnicole on December 25, 2022, 08:22:28 AM
Quote from: 1 on December 25, 2022, 07:36:45 AM
Quote from: Poiponen13 on December 25, 2022, 07:30:20 AM
US system should have following rules:
2##-###-#### – NY, CT, RI, MA, VT, NH, ME; QC, NB, PE, NS, NL
3##-###-#### – PA, MD, DC, VA, WV, NC, SC, GA, FL
4##-###-#### – OH, MI, IN, KY, TN, MS, AL; ON
5##-###-#### – IL, WI, MN, IA, MO, AR, LA
6##-###-#### – ND, SD, NE, KS, OK, TX; SK, MB
7##-###-#### – MT, ID, WY, CO, UT, NM, AZ; AB
8##-###-#### – OR, WA; BC, YT, NT, NU
9##-###-#### – CA; Caribbean
If that was implemented in 1947 (when the plan first took effect), the western states would have complained about their numbers taking longer to dial.
And NJ and DE would've complained they had to use smoke signals and carrier pigeons since they're not on the list.
NJ, DE would be 3.
What happens in Vegas stays in Vegas, because there's no way to get them on the phone.
NV=9
Quote from: hobsini2 on December 26, 2022, 10:33:46 AM
The point is area codes are an "on demand" deal. Nobody in 1950 would have predicted cell phones and a population boom in the West and South.
Area codes, ZIP Codes, and interstate numbering are all things that made sense when they were implemented but less so after 50+ years of explosive but uneven growth.
Quote from: NWI_Irish96 on December 26, 2022, 12:45:57 PM
Quote from: hobsini2 on December 26, 2022, 10:33:46 AM
The point is area codes are an "on demand" deal. Nobody in 1950 would have predicted cell phones and a population boom in the West and South.
Area codes, ZIP Codes, and interstate numbering are all things that made sense when they were implemented but less so after 50+ years of explosive but uneven growth.
And yet, they have adapted remarkably well. No massively complex and confusing redo is necessary.
They used to. Check out the phone number on this sign from the 1940s. This is my buddy's restaurant located at 1029 Gratiot in Saginaw. This sign is from the original location.(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20221226/a7b4ad832ab6953e8ca96b4073f1e655.jpg)
Quote from: Flint1979 on December 26, 2022, 02:14:39 PM
They used to. Check out the phone number on this sign from the 1940s. This is my buddy's restaurant located at 1029 Gratiot in Saginaw. This sign is from the original location.(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20221226/a7b4ad832ab6953e8ca96b4073f1e655.jpg)
I don't see letters.
Quote from: Poiponen13 on December 26, 2022, 04:19:02 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on December 26, 2022, 02:14:39 PM
They used to. Check out the phone number on this sign from the 1940s. This is my buddy's restaurant located at 1029 Gratiot in Saginaw. This sign is from the original location.(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20221226/a7b4ad832ab6953e8ca96b4073f1e655.jpg)
I don't see letters.
The spacing is imperfect, but the phone number is
PL5-9505.
Yep it's PL5-9505 which is 755-9505 which makes sense as 755 is a Saginaw exchange. The address is 1003 S. Weadock, it's a vacant lot today.
Notice how PL5-9505 is just 755-9505 with extra steps, which explains why letters aren't used in phone numbers anymore.
A classic example from American pop culture is (212) PE6-5000 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PEnnsylvania_6-5000):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AGOUldTrk-A
^^^
I think I mentioned that example upthread, early on.
Maybe you did, but I don't feel like going through 6 pages of Poiponen-thread to check. :P
Quote from: Scott5114 on December 26, 2022, 09:44:59 PM
Notice how PL5-9505 is just 755-9505 with extra steps, which explains why letters aren't used in phone numbers anymore.
That rings a bell. Before we got our own phone exchange in the late-1970s, we had a 755 exchange for Nitro, West Virginia. And our exchange was officially Pleasant-five (PL-5). The newer Scott Depot exchange was simply 757. In my folks latter years, they would get hundreds of phone calls per day from folks trying to call a local arts-and-crafts store that branched out from Nitro into Teays Valley, but kept its Nitro phone number. At first, the calls seemed as if most folks accidentally mis-dialed 757 instead of 755. But later, almost everybody would argue with my mom that it had to have a Scott Depot exchange and that the phone book was a misprint. A close relative still has this phone number and I wonder if they still get those wrong numbers?
Quote from: Poiponen13 on December 25, 2022, 07:30:20 AM
US system should have following rules:
2##-###-#### – NY, CT, RI, MA, VT, NH, ME; QC, NB, PE, NS, NL
3##-###-#### – PA, MD, DC, VA, WV, NC, SC, GA, FL
4##-###-#### – OH, MI, IN, KY, TN, MS, AL; ON
5##-###-#### – IL, WI, MN, IA, MO, AR, LA
6##-###-#### – ND, SD, NE, KS, OK, TX; SK, MB
7##-###-#### – MT, ID, WY, CO, UT, NM, AZ; AB
8##-###-#### – OR, WA; BC, YT, NT, NU
9##-###-#### – CA; Caribbean
(Extra carriage returns retained because WHY???)
Why are California and the Caribbean in the same region?
What's the benefit of including letters? Wouldn't that make phone numbers even harder to remember than just numbers? 26 possibilities for letters vs 10 numbers.
Quote from: kphoger on December 27, 2022, 03:10:32 PM
Quote from: Poiponen13 on December 25, 2022, 07:30:20 AM
US system should have following rules:
2##-###-#### – NY, CT, RI, MA, VT, NH, ME; QC, NB, PE, NS, NL
3##-###-#### – PA, MD, DC, VA, WV, NC, SC, GA, FL
4##-###-#### – OH, MI, IN, KY, TN, MS, AL; ON
5##-###-#### – IL, WI, MN, IA, MO, AR, LA
6##-###-#### – ND, SD, NE, KS, OK, TX; SK, MB
7##-###-#### – MT, ID, WY, CO, UT, NM, AZ; AB
8##-###-#### – OR, WA; BC, YT, NT, NU
9##-###-#### – CA; Caribbean
(Extra carriage returns retained because WHY???)
Why are California and the Caribbean in the same region?
Because planet earth is a sphere, maybe?
Quote from: NWI_Irish96 on December 26, 2022, 12:45:57 PM
Quote from: hobsini2 on December 26, 2022, 10:33:46 AM
The point is area codes are an "on demand" deal. Nobody in 1950 would have predicted cell phones and a population boom in the West and South.
Area codes, ZIP Codes, and interstate numbering are all things that made sense when they were implemented but less so after 50+ years of explosive but uneven growth.
Area codes doubly so, given number portability. (See, e.g., https://xkcd.com/1129/ )
Another example of the phenomenon are sequential callsigns in the US for amateur radio. The numeral in US amateur callsigns, at least in CONUS, is based on the FCC district of the ham's mailing address, with the FCC districts having been set in their current form when amateur radio licensing was restarted after WW2.
Demographic changes being what they are, there are now more hams in the fourth district than in the first three districts combined, and it shows in the sequential callsigns being issued.
The Federal Reserve districts, which were set up in 1913, are pretty silly for the same reason.
(Yes, Poiponen, they use letters for these sometimes, including as part of the serial numbers of US dollar bills. Hello from District J.)
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/8a/Federal_Reserve_Districts_Map_-_Banks_%26_Branches.png)
One thing I've noticed about phone numbers is how so many people keep their old cell numbers when they move. For example, my sister-in-law moved from the 606 to the 502 area code this year, but she kept her 606 number.
That means that anyone who calls her from a landline in her new hometown is making not only a toll call, but an out-of-area-code toll call.
Twice in recent years, the Commonwealth of Kentucky has also caused local landline callers to have to make toll calls to people locally. Several years ago, they went from a cell provider with local numbers to Verizon. Verizon doesn't offer service natively in this area, so our numbers are based out of Morehead. And while our new VOIP system originally had local numbers for each individual desktop phone line, a change to the system last year turned those numbers into 502 numbers that show up as Louisville. So if someone across the street wants to call someone at the office, they have to make a toll call.
Quote from: hbelkins on December 28, 2022, 07:37:54 PM
One thing I've noticed about phone numbers is how so many people keep their old cell numbers when they move. For example, my sister-in-law moved from the 606 to the 502 area code this year, but she kept her 606 number.
That means that anyone who calls her from a landline in her new hometown is making not only a toll call, but an out-of-area-code toll call.
I haven't had landline service since 2008, but I didn't have to pay for long distance when I had it since 2002 at the latest. USWest/Qwest had a plan that eliminated toll calls for an extra $10, as did Cox Cable when I switched to them. It paid for itself within a week.
Quote from: Scott5114 on December 27, 2022, 08:51:14 PM
The Federal Reserve districts, which were set up in 1913, are pretty silly for the same reason.
(Yes, Poiponen, they use letters for these sometimes, including as part of the serial numbers of US dollar bills. Hello from District J.)
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/8a/Federal_Reserve_Districts_Map_-_Banks_%26_Branches.png)
Don't forget the federal courts:
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/df/US_Court_of_Appeals_and_District_Court_map.svg/2560px-US_Court_of_Appeals_and_District_Court_map.svg.png)
Why some states use "Central" and some use "Middle" is something I don't know.
^ Some trivia about Federal court boundaries:
-- The only district court whose jurisdiction includes parts of more than one state is the one for Wyoming, which also covers the parts of Yellowstone National Park in Montana and Idaho.
-- The 10th Circuit was carved out of the 8th Circuit. The 11th Circuit was carved out of the 5th Circuit.
-- The huge 9th Circuit has not been split, but for a variety of reasons I won't go into here, that idea has been suggested but is controversial.
Quote from: MultiMillionMiler on December 27, 2022, 03:41:17 PM
What's the benefit of including letters? Wouldn't that make phone numbers even harder to remember than just numbers? 26 possibilities for letters vs 10 numbers.
What you'd remember is the name for the exchange, which was a word. Then the first two letters of the word were translated to digits for dialing - and painted on the dial in case you had trouble remembering. For example, PEnnsylvania 6-5000 was pronounced just like the name of the state, and it was really a mnemonic for the first two letters. On your phone you'd put your finger in the hole for P, dial it, then put your finger in the hole for E, and dial it, and continue dialing 65000.
The letter dialing succeeded in making phone numbers easier to remember, but did nothing to increase how many numbers were available because the letters were assigned about 3 letters to a digit. Actually abandoning the named exchanges increased the number of available exchanges, because 0 and 1 had no letters assigned and therefore could not be used for the first or second digits of an exhange.
Quote from: kkt on December 28, 2022, 09:42:32 PM
Quote from: MultiMillionMiler on December 27, 2022, 03:41:17 PM
What's the benefit of including letters? Wouldn't that make phone numbers even harder to remember than just numbers? 26 possibilities for letters vs 10 numbers.
What you'd remember is the name for the exchange, which was a word. Then the first two letters of the word were translated to digits for dialing - and painted on the dial in case you had trouble remembering. For example, PEnnsylvania 6-5000 was pronounced just like the name of the state, and it was really a mnemonic for the first two letters. On your phone you'd put your finger in the hole for P, dial it, then put your finger in the hole for E, and dial it, and continue dialing 65000.
The letter dialing succeeded in making phone numbers easier to remember, but did nothing to increase how many numbers were available because the letters were assigned about 3 letters to a digit. Actually abandoning the named exchanges increased the number of available exchanges, because 0 and 1 had no letters assigned and therefore could not be used for the first or second digits of an exhange.
0 & 1 still can't be used for the first digit of the exchange. 0 & 1 couldn't be used as the second digit of an exchange because they were solely reserved for area codes. That changed back in the 90's I believe when they ran out of area codes that were x0x and x1x; well after the letters were eliminated from phone numbers.
Quote from: jeffandnicole on December 28, 2022, 10:14:22 PM
Quote from: kkt on December 28, 2022, 09:42:32 PM
Quote from: MultiMillionMiler on December 27, 2022, 03:41:17 PM
What's the benefit of including letters? Wouldn't that make phone numbers even harder to remember than just numbers? 26 possibilities for letters vs 10 numbers.
What you'd remember is the name for the exchange, which was a word. Then the first two letters of the word were translated to digits for dialing - and painted on the dial in case you had trouble remembering. For example, PEnnsylvania 6-5000 was pronounced just like the name of the state, and it was really a mnemonic for the first two letters. On your phone you'd put your finger in the hole for P, dial it, then put your finger in the hole for E, and dial it, and continue dialing 65000.
The letter dialing succeeded in making phone numbers easier to remember, but did nothing to increase how many numbers were available because the letters were assigned about 3 letters to a digit. Actually abandoning the named exchanges increased the number of available exchanges, because 0 and 1 had no letters assigned and therefore could not be used for the first or second digits of an exhange.
0 & 1 still can't be used for the first digit of the exchange. 0 & 1 couldn't be used as the second digit of an exchange because they were solely reserved for area codes. That changed back in the 90's I believe when they ran out of area codes that were x0x and x1x; well after the letters were eliminated from phone numbers.
Also limiting the number of exchanges, at least in practice, was the rarity of good words for some combinations, such as 55, 57, 95, and 97. If I had to guess, this part of why 555 became the "official" fictional exchange.
Quote from: kkt on December 28, 2022, 09:42:32 PM
Quote from: MultiMillionMiler on December 27, 2022, 03:41:17 PM
What's the benefit of including letters? Wouldn't that make phone numbers even harder to remember than just numbers? 26 possibilities for letters vs 10 numbers.
What you'd remember is the name for the exchange, which was a word. Then the first two letters of the word were translated to digits for dialing - and painted on the dial in case you had trouble remembering. For example, PEnnsylvania 6-5000 was pronounced just like the name of the state, and it was really a mnemonic for the first two letters. On your phone you'd put your finger in the hole for P, dial it, then put your finger in the hole for E, and dial it, and continue dialing 65000.
The letter dialing succeeded in making phone numbers easier to remember, but did nothing to increase how many numbers were available because the letters were assigned about 3 letters to a digit. Actually abandoning the named exchanges increased the number of available exchanges, because 0 and 1 had no letters assigned and therefore could not be used for the first or second digits of an exhange.
When PE6-5000 was originally assigned, NYC was actually using three letters and four digits, so it was actually PEN-5000. They changed to the standard two letters and six digits, probably because of the difficulty of finding good word/exchange number combinations.
Also, yeah, the letters were printed on the phone so you could translate between them without much trouble, even on the touch-tone phones. For a while there, just about everyone had this exact Western Electric phone (because it was the only one The Phone Company would sell you).
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/8/81/AT%26T_push_button_telephone_western_electric_model_2500_dmg_black.jpg/800px-AT%26T_push_button_telephone_western_electric_model_2500_dmg_black.jpg)
Quote from: hbelkins on December 28, 2022, 07:37:54 PM
...
That means that anyone who calls her from a landline in her new hometown is making not only a toll call, but an out-of-area-code toll call.
...
That seems peculiar unless they've never updated the phone system in that area. We don't pay long-distance charges with our landline, but our provider is Verizon FIOS, so I suppose it's technically a VOIP service rather than a "traditional landline" even though the number is the same and the transition was unnoticeable when FIOS was installed in our neighborhood.
Quote from: kphoger on December 27, 2022, 03:10:32 PM
Quote from: Poiponen13 on December 25, 2022, 07:30:20 AM
US system should have following rules:
2##-###-#### – NY, CT, RI, MA, VT, NH, ME; QC, NB, PE, NS, NL
3##-###-#### – PA, MD, DC, VA, WV, NC, SC, GA, FL
4##-###-#### – OH, MI, IN, KY, TN, MS, AL; ON
5##-###-#### – IL, WI, MN, IA, MO, AR, LA
6##-###-#### – ND, SD, NE, KS, OK, TX; SK, MB
7##-###-#### – MT, ID, WY, CO, UT, NM, AZ; AB
8##-###-#### – OR, WA; BC, YT, NT, NU
9##-###-#### – CA; Caribbean
(Extra carriage returns retained because WHY???)
Why are California and the Caribbean in the same region?
Because Caribbean is new addition to NANP, so it receives a lot of unused 9xx area codes.
Quote from: Poiponen13 on December 29, 2022, 09:51:39 AM
Quote from: kphoger on December 27, 2022, 03:10:32 PM
Quote from: Poiponen13 on December 25, 2022, 07:30:20 AM
US system should have following rules:
2##-###-#### – NY, CT, RI, MA, VT, NH, ME; QC, NB, PE, NS, NL
3##-###-#### – PA, MD, DC, VA, WV, NC, SC, GA, FL
4##-###-#### – OH, MI, IN, KY, TN, MS, AL; ON
5##-###-#### – IL, WI, MN, IA, MO, AR, LA
6##-###-#### – ND, SD, NE, KS, OK, TX; SK, MB
7##-###-#### – MT, ID, WY, CO, UT, NM, AZ; AB
8##-###-#### – OR, WA; BC, YT, NT, NU
9##-###-#### – CA; Caribbean
(Extra carriage returns retained because WHY???)
Why are California and the Caribbean in the same region?
Because Caribbean is new addition to NANP, so it receives a lot of unused 9xx area codes.
Didn't you start with the fresh reassignment plan?
Quote from: CtrlAltDel on December 28, 2022, 08:21:04 PM
Quote from: Scott5114 on December 27, 2022, 08:51:14 PM
The Federal Reserve districts, which were set up in 1913, are pretty silly for the same reason.
(Yes, Poiponen, they use letters for these sometimes, including as part of the serial numbers of US dollar bills. Hello from District J.)
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/8a/Federal_Reserve_Districts_Map_-_Banks_%26_Branches.png)
Don't forget the federal courts:
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/df/US_Court_of_Appeals_and_District_Court_map.svg/2560px-US_Court_of_Appeals_and_District_Court_map.svg.png)
Why some states use "Central" and some use "Middle" is something I don't know.
I find it more interesting that on the Federal District Courts map that the states of OK and LA have 3 district splits while MI and WI, only have 2.
Quote from: Scott5114 on December 27, 2022, 08:51:14 PM
The Federal Reserve districts, which were set up in 1913, are pretty silly for the same reason.
(Yes, Poiponen, they use letters for these sometimes, including as part of the serial numbers of US dollar bills. Hello from District J.)
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/8a/Federal_Reserve_Districts_Map_-_Banks_%26_Branches.png)
And there is certainly room to expand upon that should the USA ever add to its its land area (Heck, I'm a bit surprised that they have not yet split district 12/L to create a district 13/M).
Mike (happily living in district 7/G)
Quote from: kalvado on December 29, 2022, 10:13:19 AM
Quote from: Poiponen13 on December 29, 2022, 09:51:39 AM
Quote from: kphoger on December 27, 2022, 03:10:32 PM
Quote from: Poiponen13 on December 25, 2022, 07:30:20 AM
US system should have following rules:
2##-###-#### – NY, CT, RI, MA, VT, NH, ME; QC, NB, PE, NS, NL
3##-###-#### – PA, MD, DC, VA, WV, NC, SC, GA, FL
4##-###-#### – OH, MI, IN, KY, TN, MS, AL; ON
5##-###-#### – IL, WI, MN, IA, MO, AR, LA
6##-###-#### – ND, SD, NE, KS, OK, TX; SK, MB
7##-###-#### – MT, ID, WY, CO, UT, NM, AZ; AB
8##-###-#### – OR, WA; BC, YT, NT, NU
9##-###-#### – CA; Caribbean
(Extra carriage returns retained because WHY???)
Why are California and the Caribbean in the same region?
Because Caribbean is new addition to NANP, so it receives a lot of unused 9xx area codes.
Didn't you start with the fresh reassignment plan?
I didn't.
Quote from: mgk920 on December 29, 2022, 12:54:06 PM
Quote from: Scott5114 on December 27, 2022, 08:51:14 PM
The Federal Reserve districts, which were set up in 1913, are pretty silly for the same reason.
(Yes, Poiponen, they use letters for these sometimes, including as part of the serial numbers of US dollar bills. Hello from District J.)
...
And there is certainly room to expand upon that should the USA ever add to its its land area (Heck, I'm a bit surprised that they have not yet split district 12/L to create a district 13/M).
Mike (happily living in district 7/G)
There are some plans to expand phone numbering capacity by adding an extra digit - although there may be enough room to keep things going for a while. But some expansion path is there via reserved x9x area codes.
SSN's, on the other hand, may be more interesting. Especially given how critical that information is for personal security.
Fun telephone numbers:
+1 523-362-4721 (JADEMAISA1)
Quote from: 1995hoo on December 29, 2022, 07:45:51 AM
Quote from: hbelkins on December 28, 2022, 07:37:54 PM
...
That means that anyone who calls her from a landline in her new hometown is making not only a toll call, but an out-of-area-code toll call.
...
That seems peculiar unless they've never updated the phone system in that area. We don't pay long-distance charges with our landline, but our provider is Verizon FIOS, so I suppose it's technically a VOIP service rather than a "traditional landline" even though the number is the same and the transition was unnoticeable when FIOS was installed in our neighborhood.
Our main office number is still the original 606-666 number. When we moved into our new building, our VOIP individual lines were local 606-693 numbers. Last year they did something to the VOIP system and changed the numbers to 502-764 (Louisville) numbers.
Quote from: Poiponen13 on December 29, 2022, 01:22:37 PM
Fun telephone numbers:
+1 523-362-4721 (JADEMAISA1)
Phoned companies won't assign numbers that spell out certain words.
Quote from: Poiponen13 on December 29, 2022, 01:22:37 PM
Fun telephone numbers:
+1 523-362-4721 (JADEMAISA1)
That cannot be a traditional telephone number. The 521—529 area codes are currently reserved for PCS, which is a distinction I don't fully understand.
Quote from: kphoger on December 30, 2022, 10:28:17 AM
Quote from: Poiponen13 on December 29, 2022, 01:22:37 PM
Fun telephone numbers:
+1 523-362-4721 (JADEMAISA1)
That cannot be a traditional telephone number. The 521—529 area codes are currently reserved for PCS, which is a distinction I don't fully understand.
Activated for PCS in 2018, whatever that means.
:hmmm:
Hmmm... It occurs to me that there's a whole department at my company with 'PCS' in its name. Nobody in the office today knows what it stands for. I wonder if it's related. Guess I'll have to ask someone in that department next time I see one of them.
Quote from: kphoger on December 30, 2022, 11:36:58 AM
:hmmm:
Hmmm... It occurs to me that there's a whole department at my company with 'PCS' in its name. Nobody in the office today knows what it stands for. I wonder if it's related. Guess I'll have to ask someone in that department next time I see one of them.
Thinking about some old discussions and as a pretty wild guess... Those PCS (personal communication services) may go to devices which need a cellular data connection, but don't need an explicitly assigned number and more so no number in the area where they are used. Kindle, Apple tag, tablets...
That sounds right, considering what I've read (but not totally understood).
Quote from: kalvado on December 30, 2022, 02:06:30 PM
Quote from: kphoger on December 30, 2022, 11:36:58 AM
:hmmm:
Hmmm... It occurs to me that there's a whole department at my company with 'PCS' in its name. Nobody in the office today knows what it stands for. I wonder if it's related. Guess I'll have to ask someone in that department next time I see one of them.
Thinking about some old discussions and as a pretty wild guess... Those PCS (personal communication services) may go to devices which need a cellular data connection, but don't need an explicitly assigned number and more so no number in the area where they are used. Kindle, Apple tag, tablets...
My wife's cardiac pacemaker monitor is another example.
Proposed number formats (A=area code, L=local number)
AAAA LLL LLL
AA LL LL LL LL
AL LL LLL
AA LLLL LLLL
AAA LLLL
AAAA LLLLL
AAA LLLLLLL
AA LLL-LL-LL
Quote from: Poiponen13 on January 02, 2023, 11:02:55 AM
(A=area code, L=local number)
AA LL LL LL LL
AA LLLL LLLL
These two formats are commonly used in Mexico's largest metro areas, which have 2-digit area codes. I've also seen the first one used in places with 3-digit area codes (AA-AL-LL-LL).
Here is a billboard example of AA-LLLL-LLLL from Monterrey, which is area code 81:
(https://i.imgur.com/3Iobzyh.png)
And here's an example of AA-LL-LL-LL-LL (but without the area code actually listed, so it's LL-LL-LL-LL instead):
(https://i.imgur.com/W6NfYGc.png)
And then there's oddball stuff like this too:
(https://i.imgur.com/01m1wbY.png)
(AAL-LLL-LLLL)
(https://i.imgur.com/5mdnYqH.png)
(AALL-LLL-LLL)
Largest cities in US should also have 2-digit are codes and 4-digit central office codes.
Quote from: kphoger on January 03, 2023, 10:37:34 AM
And here's an example of AA-LL-LL-LL-LL (but without the area code actually listed, so it's LL-LL-LL-LL instead):
(https://i.imgur.com/W6NfYGc.png)
This reads like a dotted-quad IP address to me. I probably wouldn't even recognize that as a phone number; I'd probably just get a chuckle out of them being too cheap to buy a domain name and expecting us to remember their website as being http://80.58.7.38 .
Quote from: Poiponen13 on January 03, 2023, 04:31:48 PM
Largest cities in US should also have 2-digit are codes and 4-digit central office codes.
I don't want to change my phone number from what it is, though. I've had it since 2007 and I don't want to have to update it on all of my accounts.
So you're going to have to give a reason other than "Should should should should should!"
Quote from: Scott5114 on January 03, 2023, 05:43:57 PM
This reads like a dotted-quad IP address to me. I probably wouldn't even recognize that as a phone number; I'd probably just get a chuckle out of them being too cheap to buy a domain name and expecting us to remember their website as being http://80.58.7.38 .
The two-digit grouping, with dots or periods in between, is so common in Mexico, that you'd probably get used to it awfully fast.
I briefly tried it about fifteen years ago, when I had a cell phone number of (630) 677-6699. I tried telling people my phone number as 63.06.77.66.99. They didn't like it.
(Don't try calling that number. It isn't mine anymore. Apparently, it now belongs to a realtor in Naperville.)
I wouldn't like it either. It's way easier for me to remember three numbers (630, 677, and 6699) than it would be five. By the time you said 99, the 63 would have fallen out of my head.
Quote from: catch22 on December 30, 2022, 04:31:09 PM
Quote from: kalvado on December 30, 2022, 02:06:30 PM
Quote from: kphoger on December 30, 2022, 11:36:58 AM
:hmmm:
Hmmm... It occurs to me that there's a whole department at my company with 'PCS' in its name. Nobody in the office today knows what it stands for. I wonder if it's related. Guess I'll have to ask someone in that department next time I see one of them.
Thinking about some old discussions and as a pretty wild guess... Those PCS (personal communication services) may go to devices which need a cellular data connection, but don't need an explicitly assigned number and more so no number in the area where they are used. Kindle, Apple tag, tablets...
My wife's cardiac pacemaker monitor is another example.
Additional information:
Quote
Non-geographic Services: Originally, area code 500 was intended to be used for "Personal Communications Services" (a.k.a. "the Other PCS" ), which in this context refers not to cellular telephones, but rather to so-called "follow-me" numbers. The idea was to have a single number, say (500) 123-4567, that you could program to ring your home phone from 6 to 10 p.m., go directly to voicemail at night, and ring your desk at work during the day. The number could also have some sort of response menu, along the lines of "press 1 for voicemail, 2 for fax, 3 for cellphone." Some implementations also allowed the same 500 number to be used for caller-pays or called-party-pays: dialing 1-500-xxx-xxxx, the caller would pay the cost of the call, but dialing 0-500-xxx-xxxx, the caller could enter a 4-digit PIN to charge the call to the owner of the number. However, in spite of efforts to keep telesleaze out of the 500 number space, some unscrupulous operators exploited a feature that allowed 500 numbers to forward internationally, with the additional charge borne by the caller with only a "press 1 to accept" warning, if that.
"Follow-me" numbers never really caught on, so the numbering space (including expansion codes 521, 522, 523, 524, 525, 526, 527, 528, 533, 544, 566, 577, and 588) is now used primarily for purposes that require a telephone number but that do not require a number associated with a specific geographic location. In fact, most of these numbers are not dialable on the public telephone network. One example is devices such as iPads equipped to use a cellular data network. For billing purposes, there needs to be a unique number associated with the iPad, even though that number cannot be used for inbound calls to the device. Home alarm systems that connect to a wireless carrier would also qualify. There are also other devices that may not use the phone network at all, but for some reason need a non-geographic telephone number as an address. Area codes 511, 555, and 599 are reserved, so, now that the 522 code has filled up, miscellaneous unused 5XX codes will be used, beginning with 521 and 523 through 529, and then unused 53X codes. Area code 529 went into effect 2022-09-16; area code 532 will go into effect some time in early to mid-2023, followed by 535, probably in late 2023 or early 2024, and 538, a few months after that. The other codes reserved for this purpose are 538, 542, 543, 545, 546, 547, 549, 550, 552, 553, 554, 556, 558, 569, 578, and 589.
Grabbed from: https://lincmad.com/nongeographic.html
Quote from: Poiponen13 on January 03, 2023, 04:31:48 PM
Largest cities in US should also have 2-digit are codes and 4-digit central office codes.
Given number portability, VOIPs, and the gradual end of 7-digit dialing, some thought really should be given to ending attempts to link specific phone numbers to geography.
The VOIP phone sitting next to me has 4 phone lines. The phone numbers on those lines are:
+1 678 aaa-bbbb
+1 901 ccc-dddd
+1 438 eee-ffff
+44 028 gggg hhhh
....and I'm sitting in Connecticut (area codes 860/975).
Quote from: MikeTheActuary on January 03, 2023, 08:28:15 PM
Quote from: Poiponen13 on January 03, 2023, 04:31:48 PM
Largest cities in US should also have 2-digit are codes and 4-digit central office codes.
Given number portability, VOIPs, and the gradual end of 7-digit dialing, some thought really should be given to ending attempts to link specific phone numbers to geography.
The VOIP phone sitting next to me has 4 phone lines. The phone numbers on those lines are:
+1 678 aaa-bbbb
+1 901 ccc-dddd
+1 438 eee-ffff
+44 028 gggg hhhh
....and I'm sitting in Connecticut (area codes 860/975).
There are 2 layers here, I would say. First is physical call routing, second in memorizing/dialing. These are well separated in modern internet (few of us would care that www.aaroads.com is actually resolved to 74.208.236.26), but PEnnsylvania 6-5000 is as far as it went in phone dialing. Well, again - most cell phones don't expose you to numbers when a known recipient is called/calling.
But I still assume that if I dial your +44 number from upstate NY, initial connection would go through London; and I wonder if systems are smart enough not to route entire call through UK anyway. Fiber capacity of modern internet is such that all the calls are just a drop in overall traffic, so people may not care enough. It may introduce noticeable delays, though...
Quote from: kphoger on December 30, 2022, 11:36:58 AM
:hmmm:
Hmmm... It occurs to me that there's a whole department at my company with 'PCS' in its name. Nobody in the office today knows what it stands for. I wonder if it's related. Guess I'll have to ask someone in that department next time I see one of them.
So I just asked. And no, they called their department 'PCS' shortly
before Personal Communication Services became widespread (but I think it had to have been after Sprint PCS launched in the mid-90s). I wasn't sure if they utilized that technology in their lottery installation projects, but nope.
I asked them anyway, however, if they know how VoIP calls are routed. All of them seemed pretty confident that international VoIP calls are not routed like traditional international calls. That is, their understanding is that, if I make a VoIP call to a +44 number in Connecticut from my desk in Kansas, it's really no different from me sending you an e-mail to a .co.uk account and you just receiving it in Connecticut. But that now makes me wonder... My desk phone is VoIP, but what if I were dialing from a traditional landline phone?
Quote from: 1 on December 07, 2022, 05:57:51 PM
I'm not sure how many of you have heard of ChatGPT, but it's a new chatbot that can create good user essays, write better Star Wars Episodes X-XII than the actual creators can do VII-IX, and a lot more. It contains data up to 2021. However, you cannot rely on it for accuracy. I want to know if the model used any of this forum for training. You will need to create an OpenAI account to use the bot though. Note that you cannot mess up the bot permanently, as it does not learn from user input, which is necessary as previous bots have typically been taken over by Neo-Nazis. This post was written by a human, trust me.
Quote from: kphoger on January 04, 2023, 10:58:02 AM
I asked them anyway, however, if they know how VoIP calls are routed. All of them seemed pretty confident that international VoIP calls are not routed like traditional international calls. That is, their understanding is that, if I make a VoIP call to a +44 number in Connecticut from my desk in Kansas, it's really no different from me sending you an e-mail to a .co.uk account and you just receiving it in Connecticut. But that now makes me wonder... My desk phone is VoIP, but what if I were dialing from a traditional landline phone?
The company CEO put my question into ChatGPT. Here is what it returned:
Quote from: ChatGPT results
When using VoIP to make a call from the US to the UK, the call does not necessarily have to route through the UK. With VoIP, voice and other multimedia communication is transmitted over the internet, rather than over traditional phone lines. This means that the call can be routed through any internet connection, regardless of the caller and the recipient.
However, it is possible for the call to be routed through the UK if that is the most efficient or cost-effective route. The exact route that the call takes will depend on various factors, including the specific VoIP provider being used, the location of the caller and recipient, and the availability of internet connections along the way.
[...]
To make a call from a landline to a VoIP number ... the call will be routed through the phone network to the internet, where it will be delivered to the VoIP provider. The VoIP provider will then route the call to the intended recipient.
The bolded clause is where the answer lies. Does the PSTN hand the call over from copper wires to the VoIP SIP protocol
before or
after it's recognized/routed as an international call to the UK?
Are there any places that still use seven digit dialing?
In Florida where two area codes share the same territory ten digit is a must as those who set the system says two area codes and seven digits is impossible.
Quote from: kalvado on January 04, 2023, 09:52:39 AM
There are 2 layers here, I would say. First is physical call routing, second in memorizing/dialing. These are well separated in modern internet (few of us would care that www.aaroads.com is actually resolved to 74.208.236.26)
Just out of idle curiosity, is there a place i could go and type in 74.208.236.26 where it will take me to www.aaroads.com? I thought maybe I could type it in the URL bar of my web browser, but that just gives me a 404 error.
Quote from: roadman65 on January 04, 2023, 12:15:59 PM
Are there any places that still use seven digit dialing?
In Florida where two area codes share the same territory ten digit is a must as those who set the system says two area codes and seven digits is impossible.
Obviously, the answer is "where two area codes don't share the same territory".
I can dial my personal cell phone from my VoIP desk phone here at work, using 7-digit dialing, and it rings through just fine. It only works for local calls, though. A call to Derby doesn't require dialing (316), but a call to Newton does. This might be dependent on the LRN for each phone number; I don't remember if Newton and Wichita are in the same LRN.
Quote from: kphoger on January 04, 2023, 12:23:00 PM
Quote from: roadman65 on January 04, 2023, 12:15:59 PM
Are there any places that still use seven digit dialing?
In Florida where two area codes share the same territory ten digit is a must as those who set the system says two area codes and seven digits is impossible.
Obviously, the answer is "where two area codes don't share the same territory".
Not necessarily. For example, as part of the rollout of the 988 emergency suicide number, a number of area codes with no overlays, but with regular phone numbers starting with 988, were changed to require 10-digit dialing to deal with that.
Right. Not necessarily. I'm sure there are plenty of non-overlay areas that require 10-digit dialing. But the issue described by |roadman65| does not affect those areas.
(By the way, LRN is why you can't always transfer your landline number from one house to the other when you move, even if you move within the same area code or even the same town. If your move crosses an LRN line, then you can't bring the number with you. I heard once that there was a medical office in NW Arkansas–which has a bazillion LRNs–that literally moved across the street and had to get all new phone numbers because the new location was in a different LRN.)
Quote from: CtrlAltDel on January 04, 2023, 12:17:35 PM
Quote from: kalvado on January 04, 2023, 09:52:39 AM
There are 2 layers here, I would say. First is physical call routing, second in memorizing/dialing. These are well separated in modern internet (few of us would care that www.aaroads.com is actually resolved to 74.208.236.26)
Just out of idle curiosity, is there a place i could go and type in 74.208.236.26 where it will take me to www.aaroads.com? I thought maybe I could type it in the URL bar of my web browser, but that just gives me a 404 error.
As far as I understand, the way things work for high volume providers is there may be many web servers served by the same machine. Once your request is routed to that machine, address from the request is analyzed and request is routed to appropriate software system. Aaroads.net is an extension added to ip address if you will.
Since the implementation of 988, remaining 7-digit calling areas have greatly diminished.
Quote from: roadman65 on January 04, 2023, 12:15:59 PM
Are there any places that still use seven digit dialing?
It was big news in my rural area of Kentucky when landline subscribers had to go from four- or five-digit dialing to seven-digit dialing.
I can still dial local calls on my cell phone using seven digits, sometimes. It's a crapshoot as to whether the call will go through or I'll get a recording that I have to dial the area code, or 1 plus the area code.
I just do the whole shebang with 1 and area code on the rare occasion I have to manually dial phone numbers anymore. It's too hard to keep track of what is and isn't allowed to be seven-digit dialed.
I only have five phone numbers memorized: my own, my wife's, and my parents' (their landline and both their cell numbers). I don't even know my best friend's number, which is sometimes confusing because she's had two since I've known her and one goes to a realtor in McAlester now.
Quote from: Scott5114 on January 04, 2023, 08:01:48 PM
I just do the whole shebang with 1 and area code on the rare occasion I have to manually dial phone numbers anymore. It's too hard to keep track of what is and isn't allowed to be seven-digit dialed.
Well, your area has had mandatory 10 digit dialing for about two years now...
Quote from: Scott5114 on January 04, 2023, 08:01:48 PM
I just do the whole shebang with 1 and area code on the rare occasion I have to manually dial phone numbers anymore. It's too hard to keep track of what is and isn't allowed to be seven-digit dialed.
That brings up a painful memory. When I first moved to North Carolina, our local Mom-and-Pop telephone company was the only set of exchanges in the Greensboro LATA that stayed in Area Code 919 when the Area Code 336 was created a few years prior. The Mom-and-Pop worked out a sweet deal for long distance charges with Ma Bell, which upset Bell South. Dialing eastward, we could still use 7-digit dialing within Area Code 919, except that only the Chapel Hill exchanges were local calls and we had to dial "1" before all the others. Dialing westward was a much different story, as 10-digit dialing was required for local exchanges (running out to Burlington and Elon). But if you made the mistake of dialing "1" before the local number, Bell South routed the call over to AT&T who applied the long distance charges. If you called the Mom-and-Pop, they would work with Ma Bell to drop the charges. It became such an issue that 7-digit dialing to local exchanges in Area Code 336 was restored. Until 10-digit dialing was mandated for Area Code 919 a decade later.
Quote from: kalvado on January 04, 2023, 09:52:39 AMThere are 2 layers here, I would say. First is physical call routing, second in memorizing/dialing. These are well separated in modern internet (few of us would care that www.aaroads.com is actually resolved to 74.208.236.26), but PEnnsylvania 6-5000 is as far as it went in phone dialing. Well, again - most cell phones don't expose you to numbers when a known recipient is called/calling.
But I still assume that if I dial your +44 number from upstate NY, initial connection would go through London; and I wonder if systems are smart enough not to route entire call through UK anyway. Fiber capacity of modern internet is such that all the calls are just a drop in overall traffic, so people may not care enough. It may introduce noticeable delays, though...
I'm pretty sure that incoming calls to that line if made from outside the VOIP provider's service would transit some switch in Belfast.
Every VOIP line I've used has had noticeable latency, in my experience, and calls coming in from that line do have a little more. However, I haven't received any calls from North America on that line -- it's mostly an interesting set of wrong numbers, and a decreasing number of calls from coworkers in the UK and Ireland (at work, most voice calls have shifted to Teams). And while the latency is noticeable....it's not so bad as to really interfere with communication. You just get used to it.
Wouldn't there be a similar phenomenon with cell phones traveling abroad?
Quote from: roadman65 on January 04, 2023, 12:15:59 PM
Are there any places that still use seven digit dialing?
7-digit dialing survived in area code 901 (Memphis), although I think 10 digit is "allowed" for local calls.
I understand that when 7 digit dialing will survive in much of area code 867 (Yukon/Nunavut/Northwestern Territories) when Canada adopts 988 next year -- areas local to Yellowknife, which has the 867-988 exchange will have to go to 10 digits, but 7 digit dialing will be preserved elsewhere.
New format:
AAA-LL LL LL LL
No distinction between central office code and line number.
I know I have mentioned this somewhere before. When I was a kid, the DC area had seven-digit dialing across area codes within the local calling area. For my mom at home in Virginia to call my dad at his office in DC did not require her to dial "202" first. The way this was accomplished was by not duplicating exchanges across area codes–for example, if you had a 633-#### number in DC, nobody in 703 or 301 would have a 633-#### number (or at least, nobody in the local calling area–not sure about long-distance locations like Baltimore or Roanoke). That eventually went away because they were running short on numbers and they decided using the area code was a stopgap way to get more phone numbers.
Eventually, of course, first Virginia and then Maryland succumbed to overlay area codes and ten-digit dialing. The District only succumbed in 2021, when 771 was overlain on 202. Up until then, DC had seven-digit dialing for calls within the 202 area code. I wouldn't be surprised to learn that DC was one of the last major cities to have seven-digit dialing.
Quote from: MikeTheActuary on January 05, 2023, 07:32:08 AM
Quote from: kalvado on January 04, 2023, 09:52:39 AMThere are 2 layers here, I would say. First is physical call routing, second in memorizing/dialing. These are well separated in modern internet (few of us would care that www.aaroads.com is actually resolved to 74.208.236.26), but PEnnsylvania 6-5000 is as far as it went in phone dialing. Well, again - most cell phones don't expose you to numbers when a known recipient is called/calling.
But I still assume that if I dial your +44 number from upstate NY, initial connection would go through London; and I wonder if systems are smart enough not to route entire call through UK anyway. Fiber capacity of modern internet is such that all the calls are just a drop in overall traffic, so people may not care enough. It may introduce noticeable delays, though...
I'm pretty sure that incoming calls to that line if made from outside the VOIP provider's service would transit some switch in Belfast.
Every VOIP line I've used has had noticeable latency, in my experience, and calls coming in from that line do have a little more. However, I haven't received any calls from North America on that line -- it's mostly an interesting set of wrong numbers, and a decreasing number of calls from coworkers in the UK and Ireland (at work, most voice calls have shifted to Teams). And while the latency is noticeable....it's not so bad as to really interfere with communication. You just get used to it.
Wouldn't there be a similar phenomenon with cell phones traveling abroad?
I really may try to find two people with California here in NY to see if there is any difference,
Delays for calls within the area code is pretty noticeable anyway. Once in a while, I get a call from someone literally around the corner in a hallway, and the delay is... Well, round-trip of fiberoptics signal from NY to CA is about 100 milliseconds... Judging by the delay, those local calls may very well be routed through an outsourced switch in China as well.
Quote from: Poiponen13 on January 05, 2023, 07:41:56 AM
New format:
AAA-LL LL LL LL
No distinction between central office code and line number.
NA-NANA-NAA-NA would sound better.
https://youtu.be/u1kZ9zYr7kk?t=65 (https://youtu.be/u1kZ9zYr7kk?t=65)
Quote from: kalvado on January 05, 2023, 07:51:56 AM
Quote from: Poiponen13 on January 05, 2023, 07:41:56 AM
New format:
AAA-LL LL LL LL
No distinction between central office code and line number.
NA-NANA-NAA-NA would sound better.
https://youtu.be/u1kZ9zYr7kk?t=65 (https://youtu.be/u1kZ9zYr7kk?t=65)
Or NA-NA-NANA-NA-NA-NANA. That way you could end calls by saying "Hey, hey, hey, goodbye."
Quote from: Scott5114 on January 04, 2023, 08:01:48 PM
I just do the whole shebang with 1 and area code on the rare occasion I have to manually dial phone numbers anymore. It's too hard to keep track of what is and isn't allowed to be seven-digit dialed.
When dialing from a cell phone, that's all well and good, and that's how I've started storing phone numbers in my cell phone: +1 (AAA) NNN-NNNN. It became frustrating trying to dial back to the US while roaming in Mexico, with half my numbers stored that way and half just stored without the +1 part. This way, my phone recognizes it as a call to the US and I don't have to memorize the number in order to manually enter it with the 00-1 prefixes for Mexican international dialing.
But it doesn't necessarily work when dialing from a landline. For example, as I mentioned, calling Newton from Wichita requires dialing 1-316 first. But if I dial a local Wichita number from my desk phone by dialing 1-316 first, then the phone system gives me a message that it's not necessary to dial the area code, and it makes me try again. So if a customer moves from Wichita to Newton, I have no idea if the contact number on their account is a Newton number or just a cell phone that they brought with them from Wichita during the move. Irritating.
... Or at least that's the way it used to be. I just tried dialing my own Wichita cell phone number from my desk phone by using 1-316, and it rang through just fine. Maybe it's because it's a VoIP phone, or maybe things have changed since I was last in the business of calling customers on a daily basis.
It would also be good that larger cities have shorter area codes than smaller cities.
Quote from: Poiponen13 on January 03, 2023, 04:31:48 PM
Largest cities in US should also have 2-digit are codes and 4-digit central office codes.
Quote from: Poiponen13 on January 05, 2023, 01:05:08 PM
It would also be good that larger cities have shorter area codes than smaller cities.
echo
More countries, such as Mexico, Cuba, Haiti, French Caribbean and Greenland should join NANP.
Quote from: Poiponen13 on January 05, 2023, 01:36:08 PM
More countries, such as Mexico, Cuba, Haiti, French Caribbean and Greenland should join NANP.
A few decades ago, there were special area codes used for dialing certain parts of Mexico directly from the USA: 706, 903, and 905. They were not real Mexican area codes, but were actually local US dialing codes instituted as a matter of convenience when the volume of US→Mexico calls requiring operator assistance began to get out of hand. They allowed a caller dialing from an area of the USA that otherwise required operator assistance for international calls to use those area codes instead: they corresponded to actual Mexican area codes +52 (5) and +52 (6). For example, dialing 1-905- was really just a trick for dialing 011-52-5- for callers whose area phone network couldn't handle the latter.
Quote from: Poiponen13 on January 05, 2023, 01:36:08 PM
More countries, such as Mexico, Cuba, Haiti, French Caribbean and Greenland should join NANP.
We should make EU to join first.
Quote from: 1995hoo on January 05, 2023, 08:35:36 AM
Quote from: kalvado on January 05, 2023, 07:51:56 AM
Quote from: Poiponen13 on January 05, 2023, 07:41:56 AM
New format:
AAA-LL LL LL LL
No distinction between central office code and line number.
NA-NANA-NAA-NA would sound better.
https://youtu.be/u1kZ9zYr7kk?t=65 (https://youtu.be/u1kZ9zYr7kk?t=65)
Or NA-NA-NANA-NA-NA-NANA. That way you could end calls by saying "Hey, hey, hey, goodbye."
Or MA NA MA NA. Then everyone could go "DOO DOO DOODOO DOO."
Here's something that is sure to bring back foul memories:
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/ed/Bell_System_hires_1969_logo_blue.svg/1024px-Bell_System_hires_1969_logo_blue.svg.png
Also, I remember that maps of North American area codes used to show all of Mexico with one area code. But later, these maps didn't include Mexico, and you had to dial an international dialing code if you wanted to call Mexico.
Quote from: bandit957 on January 05, 2023, 05:29:48 PM
Also, I remember that maps of North American area codes used to show all of Mexico with one area code. But later, these maps didn't include Mexico, and you had to dial an international dialing code if you wanted to call Mexico.
I just explained that, four posts before yours.
The rest of the world had to dial +52 plus the actual Mexican area code. What looked like an area code on maps back then was actually just a sort of
carrier access code (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interexchange_carrier#Carrier_identification_code) for use in the USA in order to more easily facilitate an international call to Mexico by bypassing the need for operator assistance.
Below is an area code map from 1979-1980. "Area code" 903 is shown as "N. W. Mexico". In reality, dialing 1 (903) 87-65-43-21 was translated into +52 (6) 87-65-43-21.
(https://i.imgur.com/ODZQdvE.png)
Quote from: kphoger on January 05, 2023, 01:53:40 PM
A few decades ago, there were special area codes used for dialing certain parts of Mexico directly from the USA: 706, 903, and 905. They were not real Mexican area codes, but were actually local US dialing codes instituted as a matter of convenience when the volume of US→Mexico calls requiring operator assistance began to get out of hand. They allowed a caller dialing from an area of the USA that otherwise required operator assistance for international calls to use those area codes instead: they corresponded to actual Mexican area codes +52 (5) and +52 (6). For example, dialing 1-905- was really just a trick for dialing 011-52-5- for callers whose area phone network couldn't handle the latter.
Seven-digit local dialing is probably still available in area codes that don't have an overlay. When my area had an overlay in the early 2000s, that's when 10-digit dialing became required, even for a phone down the hallway. Fortunately, we have contact lists on our phones where we don't even have to dial anymore.
Quote from: Road Hog on January 05, 2023, 07:02:30 PM
Seven-digit local dialing is probably still available in area codes that don't have an overlay.
I think ours is 10 digits. That's probably because it's an area that is split by an area code.
Arkansas' 870 area code is getting an overlay in 2024 – 327. I'm surprised by this because 870 is the code for the big area that's mostly rural and not growing. It's the area that isn't Central Arkansas (501) or NWA (479). This area isn't far removed from party lines.
Quote from: Road Hog on January 05, 2023, 07:02:30 PM
Seven-digit local dialing is probably still available in area codes that don't have an overlay.
Probably? I've said multiple times that I have seven-digit local dialing where I live.
Quote from: kphoger on January 05, 2023, 07:46:42 PM
Quote from: Road Hog on January 05, 2023, 07:02:30 PM
Seven-digit local dialing is probably still available in area codes that don't have an overlay.
Probably? I've said multiple times that I have seven-digit local dialing where I live.
With the recent introduction of the national 988 suicide prevention hotline the number of area codes still allowing 7 digit dialing was reduced considerably. However, according to the NANPA website, the following US & Canadian area codes still permit 7-digit dialing:
207 306 401 517 623 734 901
216 307 413 559 636 763 904
225 308 423 563 641 765 913
228 313 432 573 651 772 931
229 316 434 580 661 807 936
231 318 435 585 684 828 956
239 320 479 586 701 831 979
252 325 502 602 709 863 985
260 334 506 606 712 864
269 386 507 612 727 870
Quote from: frankenroad on January 06, 2023, 02:53:28 PM
With the recent introduction of the national 988 suicide prevention hotline the number of area codes still allowing 7 digit dialing was reduced considerably. However, according to the NANPA website, the following US & Canadian area codes still permit 7-digit dialing:
207 306 401 517 623 734 901
216 307 413 559 636 763 904
225 308 423 563 641 765 913
228 313 432 573 651 772 931
229 316 434 580 661 807 936
231 318 435 585 684 828 956
239 320 479 586 701 831 979
252 325 502 602 709 863 985
260 334 506 606 712 864
269 386 507 612 727 870
Area codes 602 (most of Phoenix AZ) and 623 (Phoenix western suburbs) require 10 digit dialing, and have for many years. I believe all of Arizona (those two, plus 480, 520, and 928) requires 10 digit dialing.
This thread is prompting me to remember how when I first went off to college in Charlottesville, the phone company there had it set up such that long-distance calls within the same area code required you to dial 1 plus the seven-digit number, no area code (and it didn't go through if you dialed the area code). They had to change that when digits other than "0" and "1" were allowed as the second digit in area codes.
Quote from: 1995hoo on January 07, 2023, 10:35:05 AM
This thread is prompting me to remember how when I first went off to college in Charlottesville, the phone company there had it set up such that long-distance calls within the same area code required you to dial 1 plus the seven-digit number, no area code (and it didn't go through if you dialed the area code). They had to change that when digits other than "0" and "1" were allowed as the second digit in area codes.
That was common in most of the country, prior to the breakup of Ma Bell.
As an example, back in those days, the metro Phoenix area was divided into separate zones: Central Phoenix, North Phoenix, Glendale, Tempe/Mesa, Scottsdale, Chandler, and Avondale/Goodyear. Only your own zone and adjacent zones were considered local calls; the others were long distance. Only Central Phoenix could dial all of them as local calls.
Unfortunately, parts of Phoenix were in the Scottsdale and Glendale zones. I lived inside the Phoenix city limits in the mid '70s, but we had a Scottsdale phone number. If I wanted to call a buddy who lived on the northwest side of the city, who had a Glendale number, it was a long distance call. That ended after the breakup, and all of the metro was combined into one rate center in the 1980s.
Quote from: KeithE4Phx on January 07, 2023, 05:49:31 PM
Quote from: 1995hoo on January 07, 2023, 10:35:05 AM
This thread is prompting me to remember how when I first went off to college in Charlottesville, the phone company there had it set up such that long-distance calls within the same area code required you to dial 1 plus the seven-digit number, no area code (and it didn't go through if you dialed the area code). They had to change that when digits other than "0" and "1" were allowed as the second digit in area codes.
That was common in most of the country, prior to the breakup of Ma Bell.
As an example, back in those days, the metro Phoenix area was divided into separate zones: Central Phoenix, North Phoenix, Glendale, Tempe/Mesa, Scottsdale, Chandler, and Avondale/Goodyear. Only your own zone and adjacent zones were considered local calls; the others were long distance. Only Central Phoenix could dial all of them as local calls.
Unfortunately, parts of Phoenix were in the Scottsdale and Glendale zones. I lived inside the Phoenix city limits in the mid '70s, but we had a Scottsdale phone number. If I wanted to call a buddy who lived on the northwest side of the city, who had a Glendale number, it was a long distance call. That ended after the breakup, and all of the metro was combined into one rate center in the 1980s.
I remember Cincinnati was particularly bad.
Quote from: KeithE4Phx on January 07, 2023, 05:49:31 PM
Quote from: 1995hoo on January 07, 2023, 10:35:05 AM
This thread is prompting me to remember how when I first went off to college in Charlottesville, the phone company there had it set up such that long-distance calls within the same area code required you to dial 1 plus the seven-digit number, no area code (and it didn't go through if you dialed the area code). They had to change that when digits other than "0" and "1" were allowed as the second digit in area codes.
That was common in most of the country, prior to the breakup of Ma Bell.
As an example, back in those days, the metro Phoenix area was divided into separate zones: Central Phoenix, North Phoenix, Glendale, Tempe/Mesa, Scottsdale, Chandler, and Avondale/Goodyear. Only your own zone and adjacent zones were considered local calls; the others were long distance. Only Central Phoenix could dial all of them as local calls.
Unfortunately, parts of Phoenix were in the Scottsdale and Glendale zones. I lived inside the Phoenix city limits in the mid '70s, but we had a Scottsdale phone number. If I wanted to call a buddy who lived on the northwest side of the city, who had a Glendale number, it was a long distance call. That ended after the breakup, and all of the metro was combined into one rate center in the 1980s.
A similar thing happened with metro Denver prior to the 1990s. The local calling area ended up being a huge area in distance from Longmont to Castle Rock. And that local calling area received additions by the time the 720 area code was overlaid onto the 303 area code. Specifically, towns such as Strasburg and Bennett that were served by telcos other than USWest/Qwest/CenturyLink were added. And now that the 983 area code is about to come on line, ironically at the 25 year timeline predicted when 720 was added...
Quote from: bandit957 on January 05, 2023, 04:56:36 PM
Here's something that is sure to bring back foul memories:
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/ed/Bell_System_hires_1969_logo_blue.svg/1024px-Bell_System_hires_1969_logo_blue.svg.png
Why foul? I liked the blue Bell logo a lot better than the Deathstar.
Quote from: kkt on January 14, 2023, 08:29:02 PM
Quote from: bandit957 on January 05, 2023, 04:56:36 PM
Here's something that is sure to bring back foul memories:
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/ed/Bell_System_hires_1969_logo_blue.svg/1024px-Bell_System_hires_1969_logo_blue.svg.png
Why foul? I liked the blue Bell logo a lot better than the Deathstar.
The phone company is always scary.
^^ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ffxVap-1L1Y
Quote from: MikeTheActuary on January 03, 2023, 08:28:15 PM
Given number portability, VOIPs, and the gradual end of 7-digit dialing, some thought really should be given to ending attempts to link specific phone numbers to geography.
Trivia: apparently Norway abolished their area codes three years ago.
I also see reports online that Norway is in the process of ending landline service in general, although it's not clear to me whether they're just referring to landline-in-general, or if they're abolishing "copper twisted-pair POTS" while providing "VOIP that looks like POTS" to people still seeking to use conventional phones at home as is being done in the US.
Quote from: MikeTheActuary on January 17, 2023, 06:11:20 PM
Quote from: MikeTheActuary on January 03, 2023, 08:28:15 PM
Given number portability, VOIPs, and the gradual end of 7-digit dialing, some thought really should be given to ending attempts to link specific phone numbers to geography.
Trivia: apparently Norway abolished their area codes three years ago.
Norway seems like they're quite a bit more willing to overhaul geographical divisions like that than most places are. They also abolished about half of their counties in 2020. Some of the new, larger counties hated this change enough that they elected governments with the sole platform of dissolving the counties they were elected to lead. As a result, in 2024 three of the counties will revert to roughly the old borders. ("Troms og Finnmark" will revert to "Troms" and "Finnmark", "Vestfold og Telemark" will revert to "Vestfold" and "Telemark", and "Viken" will revert to "Akershus", "Buskerud", and "Østfold".)
Quote from: MikeTheActuary on January 17, 2023, 06:11:20 PM
Quote from: MikeTheActuary on January 03, 2023, 08:28:15 PM
Given number portability, VOIPs, and the gradual end of 7-digit dialing, some thought really should be given to ending attempts to link specific phone numbers to geography.
Trivia: apparently Norway abolished their area codes three years ago.
I also see reports online that Norway is in the process of ending landline service in general, although it's not clear to me whether they're just referring to landline-in-general, or if they're abolishing "copper twisted-pair POTS" while providing "VOIP that looks like POTS" to people still seeking to use conventional phones at home as is being done in the US.
I heard France was planning on pulling out the network of copper wiring used for phone signal. Looks like same thing in Norway.
"In connection with the remediation of the copper network, we have been clear that no one should lose their phone. Either we move them to fiber or mobile. For some very few people, we have been forced to find special solutions."
I suppose it lets the phone company profit from selling the copper wire...
Quote from: kkt on January 17, 2023, 10:05:55 PM
I suppose it lets the phone company profit from selling the copper wire...
Few pieces of trivia I heard at different points:
British telecom owns copper network, where total cost of copper exceed stock value of the company.
French total removal of copper would exceed cost of copper recovered, and is done for housekeeping and environmental reasons
Quote from: MikeTheActuary on January 03, 2023, 08:28:15 PM
Quote from: Poiponen13 on January 03, 2023, 04:31:48 PM
Largest cities in US should also have 2-digit are codes and 4-digit central office codes.
Given number portability, VOIPs, and the gradual end of 7-digit dialing, some thought really should be given to ending attempts to link specific phone numbers to geography.
The VOIP phone sitting next to me has 4 phone lines. The phone numbers on those lines are:
+1 678 aaa-bbbb
+1 901 ccc-dddd
+1 438 eee-ffff
+44 028 gggg hhhh
....and I'm sitting in Connecticut (area codes 860/975).
That kind of happens now. The national cellular provider will give you the area code you prefer for whatever reason. In my day it was ease of calling for relatives. But nowadays it doesn't matter nearly as much.