From CNN Business:
The car of the future? Ford applies for patent on car that can automatically repossess itselfQuoteFord has some interesting ideas on what self-driving cars might soon be able to do. Besides freeing us from the tedium of commuting, the company envisions cars that could repossess themselves.
According to a document recently published on the United States Patent and Trademark Office website, Ford said it is considering a system that would allow a car to, on its own, leave you if you stop making your monthly auto payments.
Don't worry, though. The patent hasn't been approved yet. And Ford insists it's just a thought.
FULL ARTICLE HERE (https://markholtz.info/2pw)
This makes me feel uneasy. This goes against my deeply held personal beliefs on society and how the world should run.
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on March 06, 2023, 04:13:02 PM
This makes me feel uneasy. This goes against my deeply held personal beliefs on society and how the world should run.
That people shouldn't have to renege on their contractual duties without consequences?
Quote from: jeffandnicole on March 06, 2023, 04:15:37 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on March 06, 2023, 04:13:02 PM
This makes me feel uneasy. This goes against my deeply held personal beliefs on society and how the world should run.
That people shouldn't have to renege on their contractual duties without consequences?
The second part is way to political and complicated for this forum. The first part is mostly just I find it off putting. You have a point and I understand though, and I get why Ford is doing this. It seems like something that could be helpful for business and save them money.
I can't wait until the first time when someone gets run over by the autonomously moving vehicle while being repossessed and Ford attempts to blame the owner for the incident. Or when they do this on a vehicle paid off because of "clerical error".
I guess their new backronym can be "Fucking Owner Really Delinquent".
Maybe when GM or Stellantis goes bankrupt again the titles to all their property can automatically be repossessed by the US taxpayer.
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on March 06, 2023, 04:18:42 PM
Quote from: jeffandnicole on March 06, 2023, 04:15:37 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on March 06, 2023, 04:13:02 PM
This makes me feel uneasy. This goes against my deeply held personal beliefs on society and how the world should run.
That people shouldn't have to renege on their contractual duties without consequences?
The second part is way to political and complicated for this forum. The first part is mostly just I find it off putting. You have a point and I understand though, and I get why Ford is doing this. It seems like something that could be helpful for business and save them money.
Frankly, the world is run as it was stated in your first sentence. Think of cell phone companies - they could turn off people's phones the instant a payment wasn't made by the due date. Most companies give generous leeway to their customers. Even if Ford went thru with a vehicle self-possessing itself, it would probably be months, if not a year or more, before they invoke such a measure.
National Grid will shut off your power after just a few days past the due date as long as it's not during the winter months.
Quote from: 1 on March 06, 2023, 04:58:15 PM
National Grid will shut off your power after just a few days past the due date as long as it's not during the winter months.
Vital utilities should never be shut off for any reason. Those include internet (to a lesser extent, especially in the 21st century though), phone, heating, water, etc. We need to come up with a better method as a society to make sure that this stuff never happens.
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on March 06, 2023, 05:00:16 PM
Quote from: 1 on March 06, 2023, 04:58:15 PM
National Grid will shut off your power after just a few days past the due date as long as it's not during the winter months.
Vital utilities should never be shut off for any reason. Those include internet (to a lesser extent, especially in the 21st century though), phone, heating, water, etc. We need to come up with a better method as a society to make sure that this stuff never happens.
If it
is during the winter months, they won't shut it off until it stops being winter. And regarding phones, you can still call 911 if you've missed a payment and they disabled it.
Quote from: 1 on March 06, 2023, 05:02:12 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on March 06, 2023, 05:00:16 PM
Quote from: 1 on March 06, 2023, 04:58:15 PM
National Grid will shut off your power after just a few days past the due date as long as it's not during the winter months.
Vital utilities should never be shut off for any reason. Those include internet (to a lesser extent, especially in the 21st century though), phone, heating, water, etc. We need to come up with a better method as a society to make sure that this stuff never happens.
If it is during the winter months, they won't shut it off until it stops being winter. And regarding phones, you can still call 911 if you've missed a payment and they disabled it.
True, at least that's the case. I do think that utilites should not be commercialized private enterprises though, especially when there is only one option (a monopoly).
Yeah, I don't trust a corporation to have enough humans involved in this process to be certain it will be error free and a good idea.
I could see the "self-repossess" function being triggered because someone paid the bill on time but the transfer was a day late because of a bank holiday. Or something weird happening like someone selling the car to someone else and the state being slow in informing the car company of the transfer of title, so you get your car automatically stolen. Or they did get notified and for some reason the system didn't process the notification properly.
At least with a human repo guy you can show the paperwork to try to keep him from taking the car.
Also, what happens if you drive the car somewhere with no signal? Is it going to shut itself down because it thinks you're trying to circumvent the repossess function? I guess they're not interested in selling too many cars in Nevada or Alaska, then. Will you be required to pay for the cell connection so the car can phone home?
Someone said it "would probably be months" before someone pulls the trigger to execute the self-repo function. Maybe so, but there's currently no law requiring that on the books, so all it requires is some beanhead looking to squeeze out a bit more revenue and come to the conclusion that they'll lose less revenue from pissed-off customers than they'd gain in stolen cars to remove the "grace period". And having a grace period doesn't matter at all if the company doesn't own the car anymore but their computer thinks they do. (Then it's even worse–imagine buying a used car and driving it for six months with no issue and then it's suddenly gone. Would your first thought be that the car company stole it?)
In a dystopian future, if your house gets foreclosed it will use advanced ai robots to eject you from the house. Or it will give you a 30 minute warning and just burn it down. Sound crazy? Yes, but these are baby steps towards much bigger things. That is the future we will get if technology gets advanced enough and corporations and banks are still running society. I certainly don't want to live in this future.
I mean, it's not going to burn it down, because then the bank can't make the money it loaned you back by selling the house to someone else.
Then again, I don't really see the advanced AI coming to take your house being as big of a problem since they would run into the problem of shotgun-wielding homeowners. Most states outside the Northeast give you pretty big leeway by statute to neutralize threats to your home.
Quote from: Scott5114 on March 06, 2023, 05:37:34 PM
I mean, it's not going to burn it down, because then the bank can't make the money it loaned you back by selling the house to someone else.
Then again, I don't really see the advanced AI coming to take your house being as big of a problem since they would run into the problem of shotgun-wielding homeowners. Most states outside the Northeast give you pretty big leeway by statute to neutralize threats to your home.
Oops forgot about that. I guess it will just have to eject you using robots. Like in the future, maybe we have robots to do your chores. If your house gets foreclosed than maybe the robots will come kick you out.
That wouldn't work because then smart people just wouldn't have that kind of robot. Are you doing your MMM impression?
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on March 06, 2023, 05:31:56 PM
In a dystopian future, if your house gets foreclosed it will use advanced ai robots to eject you from the house. Or it will give you a 30 minute warning and just burn it down. Sound crazy? Yes, but these are baby steps towards much bigger things. That is the future we will get if technology gets advanced enough and corporations and banks are still running society. I certainly don't want to live in this future.
At least home foreclosures are a very advanced and lengthy court situation. They can't just kick you out when you're a week behind.
Back in 2013, I had a second mortgage on my own home. The holder of said mortgage was offering payoffs of like 8% of the balance of the loan, but when I asked they said they wouldn't for me because I was up to date with payments. I fixed that problem by not paying for two months. My house was at no risk of going anywhere, and after that two months I got the 8% buyout offer and even got them to remove the missed payments from my credit.
In short, it would take massive change to foreclosure laws to allow it to be like the car repossession world.
Quote from: Scott5114 on March 06, 2023, 05:45:35 PM
That wouldn't work because then smart people just wouldn't have that kind of robot. Are you doing your MMM impression?
The bank will send a robot into your house and drag you out.
Quote from: Scott5114 on March 06, 2023, 05:45:35 PM
That wouldn't work because then smart people just wouldn't have that kind of robot. Are you doing your MMM impression?
You know, because it's already three letters, you likely summoned him just by saying his name once.
Ford can apply for the patent. But what will it do for sales? Since it's a patent, no other company will bother paying Ford to put this "feature" in their vehicles. I know I wouldn't buy a car with this "feature" if given a choice. It may be useful for leased vehicles to try to return a vehicle after its lease expires. But I see all sorts of problems with this, including the possibility of someone hacking the automaker's site and stealing peoples' cars even if the owners paid cash.
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on March 06, 2023, 05:49:52 PM
Quote from: Scott5114 on March 06, 2023, 05:45:35 PM
That wouldn't work because then smart people just wouldn't have that kind of robot. Are you doing your MMM impression?
The bank will send a robot into your house and drag you out.
And you could shoot it in the CPU because you didn't recognize it as an agent of a valid authority with rights to enter your home.
There's a reason evictions are done by the sheriff.
Quote from: SectorZ on March 06, 2023, 05:50:14 PM
Quote from: Scott5114 on March 06, 2023, 05:45:35 PM
That wouldn't work because then smart people just wouldn't have that kind of robot. Are you doing your MMM impression?
You know, because it's already three letters, you likely summoned him just by saying his name once.
Beetlejuice...Beetlejuice...
The way to summon someone is to prepend an "@" symbol before their name, except that doesn't work on this forum.
Quote from: Scott5114 on March 06, 2023, 06:31:52 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on March 06, 2023, 05:49:52 PM
Quote from: Scott5114 on March 06, 2023, 05:45:35 PM
That wouldn't work because then smart people just wouldn't have that kind of robot. Are you doing your MMM impression?
The bank will send a robot into your house and drag you out.
And you could shoot it in the CPU because you didn't recognize it as an agent of a valid authority with rights to enter your home.
There's a reason evictions are done by the sheriff.
Who says that the sheriff has to be a human :bigass:?
Quote from: 1 on March 06, 2023, 06:38:53 PM
The way to summon someone is to prepend an "@" symbol before their name, except that doesn't work on this forum.
That only works if they are an array and not a scalar or hash. (So maybe it would work on @jeffandnicole since presumably one of them is $jeffandnicole[0] and the other is $jeffandnicole[1].)
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on March 06, 2023, 06:39:10 PM
Who says that the sheriff has to be a human :bigass:?
The state constitution, usually.
In Oklahoma, the requirements are:
- Must be at least 25 years old.
- Must possess a high school diploma or an equivalent GED (General Educational Development) certificate.
- Must have worked in the capacity of a duly certified peace officer for at least 4 years.
- Must be an Oklahoma resident for at least 2 years.
- Must be a registered voter of the county in which he/she seeks nomination.
It's hard to see how one could make a robot that would meet those qualifications.
There is also the possibility that Russian or Chinese hackers could get into Ford's database and repo everyone's cars all at once. What a shitshow that would be.
Jesus Christ, this is dystopian.
Looks like we're closer to hearing that country song about the guy's pickup truck leaving him.
Quote from: vdeane on March 06, 2023, 08:20:12 PM
Looks like we're closer to hearing that country song about the guy's pickup truck leaving him.
:-D :-D :-D
This may have been the funniest thing I've ever heard you say!
I always like it when auto companies innovate the patently unnecessary, rather improving their half-baked attempts at over-bloated and overpriced technology in the first place.
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on March 06, 2023, 05:00:16 PMQuote from: 1 on March 06, 2023, 04:58:15 PMNational Grid will shut off your power after just a few days past the due date as long as it's not during the winter months.
Vital utilities should never be shut off for any reason. Those include internet (to a lesser extent, especially in the 21st century though), phone, heating, water, etc. We need to come up with a better method as a society to make sure that this stuff never happens.
As they say, "Welcome to Adulting". If you want the freedoms of adulthood, you also have to take on the responsibilities of adulthood as well. Unfortunately, YouTube is littered with videos of non-consentual towing (https://www.youtube.com/@towtruckeryt) because some of the parking tenants can't follow the apartment parking rules and repossession videos because the owner can't afford the car and has stopped making payments. Oh, your electricity was disconnected? Just bring your account current, and there is at least a $25 re-connection fee and possibly a truck roll at $100.
Some of the technology isn't new, and has been around for well over a decade. Some of the "buy here, pay here" dealerships, especially those that cater to "poor credit? no credit? not a problem" customers can attach a tracking device to know where the vehicle is and disable the vehicle if you don't pay the bills (some of it with interest rates that are downright confiscatory) just to ensure that your car payment is at the top of your budgetary list. Unfortunately, there are too many "adults" who have trouble confusing outrights "wants" with actual needs, and budget accordingly.
Actions have consequences. Sometimes, those consequences are unplanned, unintended, and unexpected. Also, it's very expensive to be poor.
Quote from: ZLoth on March 06, 2023, 10:45:59 PM
Also, it's very expensive to be poor.
Speaking of that, I just saw this today
(https://preview.redd.it/clk5delp6rh51.jpg?width=491&auto=webp&v=enabled&s=f8c41dede17a0e407ed64780e2df3374e664b942)
https://www.reddit.com/r/povertyfinance/comments/ibzwwp/being_poor_is_expensive/
I genuinely don't trust domestic automakers to execute this in a fashion that doesn't screw over innocent people. Plus, what happens when the vehicle is paid off? Is this ability going to be removed from the vehicle, or, say, can they throw a couple of lines in the purchase contract that let them take it away for badmouthing Ford?
Paying off your car is extremely important, that's not the issue I have with this. The issue I have with this is that Ford is able to keep tabs on my car for the rest of its life, and that this automatic repossession can be used for other things, or even have unintended consequences by desired operation!
This really just encourages me to never upgrade to automated cars until as late as possible.
Quote from: Hobart on March 07, 2023, 12:19:15 AM
I genuinely don't trust domestic automakers to execute this in a fashion that doesn't screw over innocent people. Plus, what happens when the vehicle is paid off? Is this ability going to be removed from the vehicle, or, say, can they throw a couple of lines in the purchase contract that let them take it away for badmouthing Ford?
Paying off your car is extremely important, that's not the issue I have with this. The issue I have with this is that Ford is able to keep tabs on my car for the rest of its life, and that this automatic repossession can be used for other things, or even have unintended consequences by desired operation!
This really just encourages me to never upgrade to automated cars until as late as possible.
I would only trust this if it was heavily regulated by the government.
One thing to remember, patents portfolio is a significant factor in company valuation. Companies and employees actually have incentive to file stupid patents just for the sake of it. Because if they don't, competitors will do it.
And for employee who came up with idea it's a few extra bucks to deposit.
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on March 07, 2023, 01:25:07 AM
Quote from: Hobart on March 07, 2023, 12:19:15 AM
I genuinely don't trust domestic automakers to execute this in a fashion that doesn't screw over innocent people. Plus, what happens when the vehicle is paid off? Is this ability going to be removed from the vehicle, or, say, can they throw a couple of lines in the purchase contract that let them take it away for badmouthing Ford?
Paying off your car is extremely important, that's not the issue I have with this. The issue I have with this is that Ford is able to keep tabs on my car for the rest of its life, and that this automatic repossession can be used for other things, or even have unintended consequences by desired operation!
This really just encourages me to never upgrade to automated cars until as late as possible.
I would only trust this if it was heavily regulated by the government.
.... I am from the government, and I am here to help you....
I "repossessed" my business from Ford almost 20 years ago. A dead transmission after only 55,000 miles was the last straw.
Quote from: kalvado on March 07, 2023, 06:22:10 AM
.... I am from the government, and I am here to help you....
Because self-repossessing cars are so helpful to the consumer...?
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on March 07, 2023, 01:25:07 AM
I would only trust this if it was heavily regulated by the government.
Because we all know the government is trustworthy.
Quote from: Scott5114 on March 07, 2023, 07:23:14 AM
Quote from: kalvado on March 07, 2023, 06:22:10 AM
.... I am from the government, and I am here to help you....
Because self-repossessing cars are so helpful to the consumer...?
Because if government gets involved more than it is, things would only be worse.
And yes, risk reduction for lender can translate into lower rates for buyer. Before you become sceptical, a simple example - my car loan was 0% interest, but they were a bit picky about credit score. "No credit no problem" rates are never 0%.
Federal student loans are better than private-run companies. Why is everyone thinking the government would be worse than Ford repossessing cars?
Quote from: 1 on March 07, 2023, 08:07:01 AM
Federal student loans are better than private-run companies. Why is everyone thinking the government would be worse than Ford repossessing cars?
Because government may start repossession process by suspending you license and registration, for example. Local toll agency has the power to suspend registration, so you may be in for a few traffic tickets while they are at this.
Also, donotfly list, social rating (yet to be implemented) and some other tools would be available.
Quote from: 1 on March 07, 2023, 08:07:01 AM
Federal student loans are better than private-run companies. Why is everyone thinking the government would be worse than Ford repossessing cars?
A rare case, especially since we don't have any billion+ dollar football stadiums named the "US Dept. of Education Federal Student Loans" stadium.
Quote from: SectorZ on March 07, 2023, 08:26:30 AM
Quote from: 1 on March 07, 2023, 08:07:01 AM
Federal student loans are better than private-run companies. Why is everyone thinking the government would be worse than Ford repossessing cars?
A rare case, especially since we don't have any billion+ dollar football stadiums named the "US Dept. of Education Federal Student Loans" stadium.
Rare? Even neo-conservative economists admit that public goods should be delivered by the public sector.
This being Ford, will the car automatically drive itself to the dealership when a recall is issued?
Quote from: LilianaUwU on March 07, 2023, 07:28:55 AM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on March 07, 2023, 01:25:07 AM
I would only trust this if it was heavily regulated by the government.
Because we all know the government is trustworthy.
I don't trust the government but I trust big corporations even less. Those two are often essentially the same thing.
The entire idea of a self-repossesing car is predicated upon the assumption that self driving technology will be physically able and legally allowable on public roads. And I mean true self-driving, not this Tesla thing where it can sort of drive itself under ideal conditions but always with a human driver ready to take over.
While one can argue we are closing in on the former, I don't think the latter is a guarantee. There's going to be a mish-mash of state and local laws covering the legality of driverless automobiles for a long time, I figure, until the technology hits some kind of critical mass where it becomes politically expedient to do something at the federal level. The first time a truly autonomous vehicle hits and kills someone, the lawsuits will fly and the process of making driverless cars legal will bog down massively.
Which is quite absurd considering human drivers kill tens of thousands of people every single year, but if one robot car does it, suddenly it's Skynet trying to bump us off!
Oh, just to put things in perspective...
A few years back Apple got a patent for a force-fed ads - device would lock until user reviews the ad and answers a few questions on advertised goods or services correctly....
Never was implemented AFAIK, but extra patent added a bit to company valuation
That's okay, I'll invent a car that will automatically crush itself into a cube if you park in a no parking zone.
In any case, Ford can't even make cars that work, do they seriously think they can pull this off?
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on March 06, 2023, 05:00:16 PM
[We need to come up with a better method as a society to make sure that this stuff never happens.
We have one
- Get every second of education in a serious marketable field as you possibly can.
- Work hard.
- Pay your bills.
- Pay your debts.
- Don't buy things on credit you cannot afford.
- Lay by a nest egg for a rainy day.
Its called being an adult.
As to the original question, I'm totally down with the idea. Among the costs of credit are the costs of the deadbeats that has to be spread among all the decent people. Any system that would lock up a car (self driving cars are science fiction, and there is no need for that, just lock it down and send a signal to HQ to come get it) for non-payment, no insurance, no plates, unpaid tolls, unpaid tickets, and such is great, pushing down the costs that decent people have to pay to cover for other people's irresponsible behaviors.
Quote from: SP Cook on March 07, 2023, 11:53:36 AM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on March 06, 2023, 05:00:16 PM
[We need to come up with a better method as a society to make sure that this stuff never happens.
We have one
- Get every second of education in a serious marketable field as you possibly can.
- Work hard.
- Pay your bills.
- Pay your debts.
- Don't buy things on credit you cannot afford.
- Lay by a nest egg for a rainy day.
Its called being an adult.
As to the original question, I'm totally down with the idea. Among the costs of credit are the costs of the deadbeats that has to be spread among all the decent people. Any system that would lock up a car (self driving cars are science fiction, and there is no need for that, just lock it down and send a signal to HQ to come get it) for non-payment, no insurance, no plates, unpaid tolls, unpaid tickets, and such is great, pushing down the costs that decent people have to pay to cover for other people's irresponsible behaviors.
blah blah bootstraps blah blah blah
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on March 07, 2023, 11:55:36 AM
Quote from: SP Cook on March 07, 2023, 11:53:36 AM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on March 06, 2023, 05:00:16 PM
[We need to come up with a better method as a society to make sure that this stuff never happens.
We have one
- Get every second of education in a serious marketable field as you possibly can.
- Work hard.
- Pay your bills.
- Pay your debts.
- Don't buy things on credit you cannot afford.
- Lay by a nest egg for a rainy day.
Its called being an adult.
As to the original question, I'm totally down with the idea. Among the costs of credit are the costs of the deadbeats that has to be spread among all the decent people. Any system that would lock up a car (self driving cars are science fiction, and there is no need for that, just lock it down and send a signal to HQ to come get it) for non-payment, no insurance, no plates, unpaid tolls, unpaid tickets, and such is great, pushing down the costs that decent people have to pay to cover for other people's irresponsible behaviors.
blah blah bootstraps blah blah blah
https://consumer.ftc.gov/articles/vehicle-repossession#Electronic
Quote
When you got your car loan, you might have agreed to have a device on your car that prevents it from starting – sometimes called a "starter interrupt" or "kill switch" – if you don't make your payments on time.
blah blah, show me your money first
Quote from: kalvado on March 07, 2023, 11:59:58 AM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on March 07, 2023, 11:55:36 AM
Quote from: SP Cook on March 07, 2023, 11:53:36 AM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on March 06, 2023, 05:00:16 PM
[We need to come up with a better method as a society to make sure that this stuff never happens.
We have one
- Get every second of education in a serious marketable field as you possibly can.
- Work hard.
- Pay your bills.
- Pay your debts.
- Don't buy things on credit you cannot afford.
- Lay by a nest egg for a rainy day.
Its called being an adult.
As to the original question, I'm totally down with the idea. Among the costs of credit are the costs of the deadbeats that has to be spread among all the decent people. Any system that would lock up a car (self driving cars are science fiction, and there is no need for that, just lock it down and send a signal to HQ to come get it) for non-payment, no insurance, no plates, unpaid tolls, unpaid tickets, and such is great, pushing down the costs that decent people have to pay to cover for other people's irresponsible behaviors.
blah blah bootstraps blah blah blah
https://consumer.ftc.gov/articles/vehicle-repossession#Electronic
Quote
When you got your car loan, you might have agreed to have a device on your car that prevents it from starting — sometimes called a “starter interrupt” or “kill switch” — if you don’t make your payments on time.
blah blah, show me your money first
I wasn't really tallking about the car stuff anymore, I was more talking about the rest of SP Cook's post. Cook was quoting my post about utilities getting shut off back on page one.
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on March 07, 2023, 12:01:26 PM
Quote from: kalvado on March 07, 2023, 11:59:58 AM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on March 07, 2023, 11:55:36 AM
Quote from: SP Cook on March 07, 2023, 11:53:36 AM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on March 06, 2023, 05:00:16 PM
[We need to come up with a better method as a society to make sure that this stuff never happens.
We have one
- Get every second of education in a serious marketable field as you possibly can.
- Work hard.
- Pay your bills.
- Pay your debts.
- Don't buy things on credit you cannot afford.
- Lay by a nest egg for a rainy day.
Its called being an adult.
As to the original question, I'm totally down with the idea. Among the costs of credit are the costs of the deadbeats that has to be spread among all the decent people. Any system that would lock up a car (self driving cars are science fiction, and there is no need for that, just lock it down and send a signal to HQ to come get it) for non-payment, no insurance, no plates, unpaid tolls, unpaid tickets, and such is great, pushing down the costs that decent people have to pay to cover for other people's irresponsible behaviors.
blah blah bootstraps blah blah blah
https://consumer.ftc.gov/articles/vehicle-repossession#Electronic
Quote
When you got your car loan, you might have agreed to have a device on your car that prevents it from starting – sometimes called a "starter interrupt" or "kill switch" – if you don't make your payments on time.
blah blah, show me your money first
I wasn't really tallking about the car stuff anymore, I was more talking about the rest of SP Cook's post. Cook was quoting my post about utilities getting shut off back on page one.
it's an interesting question on where to draw the line between minimal life-supporting needs and luxury. Full disconnect of utilities may be harsh; I know CA implemented forcible installation of flow restrictors to those who refused to limit their water consumption. Probably a smarter way of doing things.
Well I think that it should be clear that running water is not a luxury, it is a necessity. Some of the prior posts (mostly just the SP Cook one) reek of a "poverty is a choice" type attitude.
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on March 07, 2023, 12:21:35 PM
Well I think that it should be clear that running water is not a luxury, it is a necessity. Some of the prior posts (mostly just the SP Cook one) reek of a "poverty is a choice" type attitude.
how much of water and electricity is a necessity and how much is a luxury? For living space, for example, a room per person is a luxury and a bed in shelter covers minimal necessity. Steak is a luxury, loaf of bread is a necessity. a gallon of water a day is enough for drinking and basic cooking... Watering lawn is definitely a luxury. I can make similar statements for electricity, that would be more difficult to implement, though.
Discussions of what is a "luxury" vis a "necessity" imply that one should not pay for necessities.
No, the real world doesn't work like that. Is water a "necessity"? Probably. So it is therefore a "necessity" that you get a job and go to work, so you can pay for it.
Quote from: SP Cook on March 07, 2023, 01:00:05 PM
Discussions of what is a "luxury" vis a "necessity" imply that one should not pay for necessities.
No, the real world doesn't work like that. Is water a "necessity"? Probably. So it is therefore a "necessity" that you get a job and go to work, so you can pay for it.
You're a special kind of capitalist, aren't you?
Quote from: SP Cook on March 07, 2023, 01:00:05 PM
Discussions of what is a "luxury" vis a "necessity" imply that one should not pay for necessities.
No, the real world doesn't work like that. Is water a "necessity"? Probably. So it is therefore a "necessity" that you get a job and go to work, so you can pay for it.
Uh life doesn't really work that way. Do you support getting rid of food stamps and unemployment benefits as well? What about medicaid/medicare?
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on March 07, 2023, 01:22:53 PM
Quote from: SP Cook on March 07, 2023, 01:00:05 PM
Discussions of what is a "luxury" vis a "necessity" imply that one should not pay for necessities.
No, the real world doesn't work like that. Is water a "necessity"? Probably. So it is therefore a "necessity" that you get a job and go to work, so you can pay for it.
Uh life doesn't really work that way. Do you support getting rid of food stamps and unemployment benefits as well? What about medicaid/medicare?
Knowing SP Cook, yes for the first two.
Remember how many politicians brag about getting people off food stamps or complain that there are too many people on food stamps.
Quote from: 1 on March 07, 2023, 01:24:36 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on March 07, 2023, 01:22:53 PM
Quote from: SP Cook on March 07, 2023, 01:00:05 PM
Discussions of what is a "luxury" vis a "necessity" imply that one should not pay for necessities.
No, the real world doesn't work like that. Is water a "necessity"? Probably. So it is therefore a "necessity" that you get a job and go to work, so you can pay for it.
Uh life doesn't really work that way. Do you support getting rid of food stamps and unemployment benefits as well? What about medicaid/medicare?
Knowing SP Cook, yes for the first two.
Cook the kind of guy to oppose free school lunch for low income children.
Quote from: SP Cook on March 07, 2023, 01:00:05 PM
Discussions of what is a "luxury" vis a "necessity" imply that one should not pay for necessities.
No, the real world doesn't work like that. Is water a "necessity"? Probably. So it is therefore a "necessity" that you get a job and go to work, so you can pay for it.
There is a concept of social security, so that those who cannot afford most basic things still get a chance to live.
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on March 07, 2023, 12:21:35 PM
Well I think that it should be clear that running water is not a luxury, it is a necessity. Some of the prior posts (mostly just the SP Cook one) reek of a "poverty is a choice" type attitude.
I tend to think that SP is less of a "poverty is a choice" kind of guy and more of a "the poor need to suffer to encourage the others" kind of guy. That said, there is some overlap between the two.
Quote from: CtrlAltDel on March 07, 2023, 01:46:01 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on March 07, 2023, 12:21:35 PM
Well I think that it should be clear that running water is not a luxury, it is a necessity. Some of the prior posts (mostly just the SP Cook one) reek of a "poverty is a choice" type attitude.
I tend to think that SP is less of a "poverty is a choice" kind of guy and more of a "the poor need to suffer to encourage the others" kind of guy. That said, there is some overlap between the two.
Cook the kind of guy to think that the best people in society are billionares as they have the most money.
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on March 07, 2023, 01:47:29 PM
Quote from: CtrlAltDel on March 07, 2023, 01:46:01 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on March 07, 2023, 12:21:35 PM
Well I think that it should be clear that running water is not a luxury, it is a necessity. Some of the prior posts (mostly just the SP Cook one) reek of a "poverty is a choice" type attitude.
I tend to think that SP is less of a "poverty is a choice" kind of guy and more of a "the poor need to suffer to encourage the others" kind of guy. That said, there is some overlap between the two.
Cook the kind of guy to think that the best people in society are billionares as they have the most money.
SP, again in my view, is much less pro-rich than he is anti-poor.
I park my car in the garage. So if there is a glitch (which you know there will be because there always is one) and then they hit the reposes button, the car I am up to date on just ran away from home and I need a new garage door!!!
I guess one could convert their garage into a Faraday cage ...
Quote from: ethanhopkin14 on March 07, 2023, 01:56:28 PM
I park my car in the garage. So if there is a glitch (which you know there will be because there always is one) and then they hit the reposes button, the car I am up to date on just ran away from home and I need a new garage door!!!
There is a lot of fine print here. First, closed garage may be off limits for repossession. Second, you assume automatic car wouldn't recognize there is something in the way. Third, you assume anyone actually expects that repo scheme become real within foreseeable future.
Quote from: CtrlAltDel on March 07, 2023, 01:56:16 PM
SP, again in my view, is much less pro-rich than he is anti-poor.
I am 100% anti being poor. That is why I W O R K for a living.
Quote from: SP Cook on March 07, 2023, 02:40:39 PM
Quote from: CtrlAltDel on March 07, 2023, 01:56:16 PM
SP, again in my view, is much less pro-rich than he is anti-poor.
I am 100% anti being poor. That is why I W O R K for a living.
What happens if you have some sort of health condition that causes you to not be able to work anymore?
I clicked through on the article because I was curious as to whether prior art would allow Ford to claim innovation. Aside from the aspect of the car driving itself to an area within the lienholder's control, I am not sure it does. In a sense, dystopia has already arrived, since current cars allow remote access for diagnosis and diagnostic interfaces have already been successfully hacked to take over the steering, cause the car to stall, etc.
Quote from: J N Winkler on March 07, 2023, 02:56:55 PM
I clicked through on the article because I was curious as to whether prior art would allow Ford to claim innovation. Aside from the aspect of the car driving itself to an area within the lienholder's control, I am not sure it does. In a sense, dystopia has already arrived, since current cars allow remote access for diagnosis and diagnostic interfaces have already been successfully hacked to take over the steering, cause the car to stall, etc.
It's not that hijacking cars or stealing parts was never a problem.
On a grand scheme of things, companies want to switch from "sold and done" to monthly payments for everything. Remember the days when software was sold in a box, for one?
Infamous "seat heater is only included with a monthly subscription" is a bigger thing from my perspective.
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on March 07, 2023, 02:51:42 PM
Quote from: SP Cook on March 07, 2023, 02:40:39 PM
Quote from: CtrlAltDel on March 07, 2023, 01:56:16 PM
SP, again in my view, is much less pro-rich than he is anti-poor.
I am 100% anti being poor. That is why I W O R K for a living.
What happens if you have some sort of health condition that causes you to not be able to work anymore?
Society takes care of you. That represents, BTW, about 1 out of 5 people currently receiving government (AKA taxpayer) money.
What happens when you simply refuse to work?
Quote from: CtrlAltDel on March 07, 2023, 01:46:01 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on March 07, 2023, 12:21:35 PM
Well I think that it should be clear that running water is not a luxury, it is a necessity. Some of the prior posts (mostly just the SP Cook one) reek of a "poverty is a choice" type attitude.
I tend to think that SP is less of a "poverty is a choice" kind of guy and more of a "the poor need to suffer to encourage the others" kind of guy. That said, there is some overlap between the two.
Quote from: SP Cook on March 07, 2023, 02:40:39 PM
I am 100% anti being poor. That is why I W O R K for a living.
I stand corrected.
Quote from: SP Cook on March 07, 2023, 03:14:43 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on March 07, 2023, 02:51:42 PM
Quote from: SP Cook on March 07, 2023, 02:40:39 PM
Quote from: CtrlAltDel on March 07, 2023, 01:56:16 PM
SP, again in my view, is much less pro-rich than he is anti-poor.
I am 100% anti being poor. That is why I W O R K for a living.
What happens if you have some sort of health condition that causes you to not be able to work anymore?
Society takes care of you. That represents, BTW, about 1 out of 5 people currently receiving government (AKA taxpayer) money.
What happens when you simply refuse to work?
There can be different situations. With many people living paycheck to paycheck temporary financial problems may affect even those who work, especially low paid jobs.
For example , there was a case not long ago when a company MyPayrollHR and it's owner Michael Mann screwed up a lot of people by not only failing to make a deposit (actually scheduling transfers and not backing them up with funds). Then the bank made it worse by reversing paycheck transaction and processing reverse one TWICE. So people got a WITHDRAWAL equal to their paycheck instead of a paycheck. It took a while to sort things out. Thousands people got affected. (I know this as the guy was based approximately 5 miles from my home, and there was a lot of noise locally about the situation). Things were eventually resolved (I am not exactly sure who covered those losses after all), but I think it took a few weeks before employers were made whole.
It's easy to escalate from there...
Quote from: kalvado on March 07, 2023, 02:02:26 PM
Quote from: ethanhopkin14 on March 07, 2023, 01:56:28 PM
I park my car in the garage. So if there is a glitch (which you know there will be because there always is one) and then they hit the reposes button, the car I am up to date on just ran away from home and I need a new garage door!!!
There is a lot of fine print here. First, closed garage may be off limits for repossession. Second, you assume automatic car wouldn't recognize there is something in the way. Third, you assume anyone actually expects that repo scheme become real within foreseeable future.
No, I more liked the comedic angle of my car driving away from home and destroying my garage door in the process.
Quote from: ethanhopkin14 on March 07, 2023, 04:09:30 PM
Quote from: kalvado on March 07, 2023, 02:02:26 PM
Quote from: ethanhopkin14 on March 07, 2023, 01:56:28 PM
I park my car in the garage. So if there is a glitch (which you know there will be because there always is one) and then they hit the reposes button, the car I am up to date on just ran away from home and I need a new garage door!!!
There is a lot of fine print here. First, closed garage may be off limits for repossession. Second, you assume automatic car wouldn't recognize there is something in the way. Third, you assume anyone actually expects that repo scheme become real within foreseeable future.
No, I more liked the comedic angle of my car driving away from home and destroying my garage door in the process.
Think about it in such a way - if a car can destroy garage door, it can destroy a homo sapiens standing behind that door. And while I definitely heard about human drivers doing something along those lines, robodriver must be much better at such routine tasks - or face a capital punishment of wipeout with no chance to see a judge before that.
Quote from: kalvado on March 07, 2023, 03:07:47 PMOn a grand scheme of things, companies want to switch from "sold and done" to monthly payments for everything. Remember the days when software was sold in a box, for one?
Infamous "seat heater is only included with a monthly subscription" is a bigger thing from my perspective.
I certainly agree those are concerns, especially since subscription charges have a regressive impact (uniform charge for everybody, no scope to rely on first-sale doctrine for cheap access to past versions) and thereby create barriers to wealth accumulation for those on lower incomes. But, at the same time, I wonder if they don't also flag opportunities for antitrust enforcement in situations where it is not constitutionally barred. In order to collect rent from its customers through subscription charges, a company would seem to need some assurance that it won't be undercut by a competitor who adheres to traditional terms, and that in turn could imply collusion, cartelization, or some other anti-competitive mechanism.
Quote from: SP Cook on March 07, 2023, 03:14:43 PM
What happens when you simply refuse to work?
Then that makes you smarter than all of these dipshits busting their ass and getting nothing out of it, doesn't it?
Quote from: Scott5114 on March 07, 2023, 07:29:55 PM
Quote from: SP Cook on March 07, 2023, 03:14:43 PM
What happens when you simply refuse to work?
Then that makes you smarter than all of these dipshits busting their ass and getting nothing out of it, doesn't it?
:bigass: :bigass: :bigass: :bigass: :bigass: :bigass: :bigass: :bigass:
How about a car that drives itself straight back to the dealership when you miss a payment.
Quote from: thspfc on March 07, 2023, 11:02:32 PM
How about a car that drives itself straight back to the dealership when you miss a payment.
That's literally what the patent proposes kind of
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on March 06, 2023, 05:49:52 PM
Quote from: Scott5114 on March 06, 2023, 05:45:35 PM
That wouldn't work because then smart people just wouldn't have that kind of robot. Are you doing your MMM impression?
The bank will send a robot into your house and drag you out.
That's the part where you dump water on it.
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on March 07, 2023, 11:03:53 PM
Quote from: thspfc on March 07, 2023, 11:02:32 PM
How about a car that drives itself straight back to the dealership when you miss a payment.
That's literally what the patent proposes kind of
I am in full support of this because it would be hilarious.
Don't want robots to steal your car? Pay for it on time.
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on March 07, 2023, 11:55:36 AM
Quote from: SP Cook on March 07, 2023, 11:53:36 AM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on March 06, 2023, 05:00:16 PM
[We need to come up with a better method as a society to make sure that this stuff never happens.
We have one
- Get every second of education in a serious marketable field as you possibly can.
- Work hard.
- Pay your bills.
- Pay your debts.
- Don't buy things on credit you cannot afford.
- Lay by a nest egg for a rainy day.
Its called being an adult.
As to the original question, I'm totally down with the idea. Among the costs of credit are the costs of the deadbeats that has to be spread among all the decent people. Any system that would lock up a car (self driving cars are science fiction, and there is no need for that, just lock it down and send a signal to HQ to come get it) for non-payment, no insurance, no plates, unpaid tolls, unpaid tickets, and such is great, pushing down the costs that decent people have to pay to cover for other people's irresponsible behaviors.
blah blah bootstraps blah blah blah
The sarcastic response here is definitely telling . . .
Honestly, this has me curious if you can somehow modify the car to destroy itself while driving back to the dealership; all you'd have to do is swap a few wires on the motor H-bridge, and suddenly, the car is their problem! "If I can't have this car, nobody else can!" Obviously, you should remove the plates first.
Quote from: thspfc on March 07, 2023, 11:10:46 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on March 07, 2023, 11:55:36 AM
Quote from: SP Cook on March 07, 2023, 11:53:36 AM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on March 06, 2023, 05:00:16 PM
[We need to come up with a better method as a society to make sure that this stuff never happens.
We have one
- Get every second of education in a serious marketable field as you possibly can.
- Work hard.
- Pay your bills.
- Pay your debts.
- Don't buy things on credit you cannot afford.
- Lay by a nest egg for a rainy day.
Its called being an adult.
As to the original question, I'm totally down with the idea. Among the costs of credit are the costs of the deadbeats that has to be spread among all the decent people. Any system that would lock up a car (self driving cars are science fiction, and there is no need for that, just lock it down and send a signal to HQ to come get it) for non-payment, no insurance, no plates, unpaid tolls, unpaid tickets, and such is great, pushing down the costs that decent people have to pay to cover for other people's irresponsible behaviors.
blah blah bootstraps blah blah blah
The sarcastic response here is definitely telling . . .
SP Cook's response was textbook for "boomer tells young people why they are lazy failures who spend all of their time playing fortnite and making tiktoks". Like all of the classics. Like telling people living paycheck to paycheck to save money.
Quote from: Hobart on March 07, 2023, 11:12:27 PM
Honestly, this has me curious if you can somehow modify the car to destroy itself while driving back to the dealership; all you'd have to do is swap a few wires on the motor H-bridge, and suddenly, the car is their problem! "If I can't have this car, nobody else can!" Obviously, you should remove the plates first.
That would quickly escalate to a criminal domain.
Would you also cut brakes lines before regular human repo? Same general idea ...
Quote from: Scott5114 on March 07, 2023, 07:29:55 PM
Quote from: SP Cook on March 07, 2023, 03:14:43 PM
What happens when you simply refuse to work?
Then that makes you smarter than all of these dipshits busting their ass and getting nothing out of it, doesn't it?
Careful, I think you just said MMM is smarter than all those who are working.
The car drives away from your house:
Me: "I am not late on any of my payments. Don't drive off!!"
Car: "I'm afraid I can't do that, Dave."
Quote from: GaryV on March 08, 2023, 10:02:09 AM
Quote from: Scott5114 on March 07, 2023, 07:29:55 PM
Quote from: SP Cook on March 07, 2023, 03:14:43 PM
What happens when you simply refuse to work?
Then that makes you smarter than all of these dipshits busting their ass and getting nothing out of it, doesn't it?
Careful, I think you just said MMM is smarter than all those who are working.
Little Johnny was an idiot. For example, when someone let him grab one coin out of two, say 5c and 10c, he always took a bigger one - 5c.
Once upon a time teacher asked - Johnny, don't you understand that 10 cents is more than 5? - Sure I do. - But why do you always take 5 cents? - Well, because if I take a 10, nobody will try that again. And this way I already made $7 out of it...
1. I'm generally in favor of actual humans making decisions like this. Just as I generally don't support photo-enforced traffic laws, I don't generally support automatic car repossession. I'm open to the possibility of situations in which it's acceptable, but my basic position is that humans are better able than machines at being understanding and tolerant, appreciating the bigger picture, and prioritizing.
2. With that in mind, I might support such a thing if the owner had already been contacted a couple of times but was still in default. It shouldn't be implemented without any prior contact having been made to try and resolve the default by other means. It shouldn't be implemented as Plan A.
3. Having driven into Mexico several times in a vehicle with a lienholder–providing the registration receipt as proof of ownership at the border instead of the title, which was still in the bank's possession–I'm trying to imagine some international scenarios that could end up bad. For example, if an American drives into Mexico in a vehicle with a lienholder, then sells it illegally for cash down in Mexico, then the new owner in Mexico drives close enough to the US border to ping its location as being in the United States. An interesting thought experiment.
4. A better thing might be to engage a speed limiter or transaxle safe mode in the case of default. Didn't make your last two car loan payments? Now you can't go faster than second gear.
Quote from: kphoger on March 08, 2023, 10:35:12 AM
1. I'm generally in favor of actual humans making decisions like this. Just as I generally don't support photo-enforced traffic laws, I don't generally support automatic car repossession. I'm open to the possibility of situations in which it's acceptable, but my basic position is that humans are better able than machines at being understanding and tolerant, appreciating the bigger picture, and prioritizing.
2. With that in mind, I might support such a thing if the owner had already been contacted a couple of times but was still in default. It shouldn't be implemented without any prior contact having been made to try and resolve the default by other means. It shouldn't be implemented as Plan A.
3. Having driven into Mexico several times in a vehicle with a lienholder–providing the registration receipt as proof of ownership at the border instead of the title, which was still in the bank's possession–I'm trying to imagine some international scenarios that could end up bad. For example, if an American drives into Mexico in a vehicle with a lienholder, then sells it illegally for cash down in Mexico, then the new owner in Mexico drives close enough to the US border to ping its location as being in the United States. An interesting thought experiment.
4. A better thing might be to engage a speed limiter or transaxle safe mode in the case of default. Didn't make your last two car loan payments? Now you can't go faster than second gear.
3. Don't you need a title to sell a car in Mexico? Registration is definitely not making it within US...
Quote from: GaryV on March 08, 2023, 10:02:09 AM
Quote from: Scott5114 on March 07, 2023, 07:29:55 PM
Quote from: SP Cook on March 07, 2023, 03:14:43 PM
What happens when you simply refuse to work?
Then that makes you smarter than all of these dipshits busting their ass and getting nothing out of it, doesn't it?
Careful, I think you just said MMM is smarter than all those who are working.
MMM is the smartest person on the forum. He's just trolling us.
Quote from: kalvado on March 08, 2023, 10:44:15 AM
Quote from: kphoger on March 08, 2023, 10:35:12 AM
1. I'm generally in favor of actual humans making decisions like this. Just as I generally don't support photo-enforced traffic laws, I don't generally support automatic car repossession. I'm open to the possibility of situations in which it's acceptable, but my basic position is that humans are better able than machines at being understanding and tolerant, appreciating the bigger picture, and prioritizing.
2. With that in mind, I might support such a thing if the owner had already been contacted a couple of times but was still in default. It shouldn't be implemented without any prior contact having been made to try and resolve the default by other means. It shouldn't be implemented as Plan A.
3. Having driven into Mexico several times in a vehicle with a lienholder–providing the registration receipt as proof of ownership at the border instead of the title, which was still in the bank's possession–I'm trying to imagine some international scenarios that could end up bad. For example, if an American drives into Mexico in a vehicle with a lienholder, then sells it illegally for cash down in Mexico, then the new owner in Mexico drives close enough to the US border to ping its location as being in the United States. An interesting thought experiment.
4. A better thing might be to engage a speed limiter or transaxle safe mode in the case of default. Didn't make your last two car loan payments? Now you can't go faster than second gear.
3. Don't you need a title to sell a car in Mexico? Registration is definitely not making it within US...
Pertinent part highlighted. The new owner wouldn't be able to register it, but there are thousands of such vehicles down there, along with unofficial license plates sold by gangs of lawyers.
Quote from: kphoger on March 08, 2023, 12:09:07 PM
Quote from: kalvado on March 08, 2023, 10:44:15 AM
Quote from: kphoger on March 08, 2023, 10:35:12 AM
1. I'm generally in favor of actual humans making decisions like this. Just as I generally don't support photo-enforced traffic laws, I don't generally support automatic car repossession. I'm open to the possibility of situations in which it's acceptable, but my basic position is that humans are better able than machines at being understanding and tolerant, appreciating the bigger picture, and prioritizing.
2. With that in mind, I might support such a thing if the owner had already been contacted a couple of times but was still in default. It shouldn't be implemented without any prior contact having been made to try and resolve the default by other means. It shouldn't be implemented as Plan A.
3. Having driven into Mexico several times in a vehicle with a lienholder–providing the registration receipt as proof of ownership at the border instead of the title, which was still in the bank's possession–I'm trying to imagine some international scenarios that could end up bad. For example, if an American drives into Mexico in a vehicle with a lienholder, then sells it illegally for cash down in Mexico, then the new owner in Mexico drives close enough to the US border to ping its location as being in the United States. An interesting thought experiment.
4. A better thing might be to engage a speed limiter or transaxle safe mode in the case of default. Didn't make your last two car loan payments? Now you can't go faster than second gear.
3. Don't you need a title to sell a car in Mexico? Registration is definitely not making it within US...
Pertinent part highlighted. The new owner wouldn't be able to register it, but there are thousands of such vehicles down there, along with unofficial license plates sold by gangs of lawyers.
Honestly speaking, triple illegal action on a car isn't something of too much concern IMHO. But since you asked... A more realistic one:
I believe all cars sold in US must have cellular connection in some way anyway? I can see disabling that connection as a part of mexicanizing the car anyway. An interesting question what would happen once new cars wouldn't run without proper connection - like MS Office which needs periodic validations. And that is a more realistic scenario IMHO, as first steps with remote updates and features disabling are already out there.
Quote from: kalvado on March 08, 2023, 12:40:51 PMI believe all cars sold in US must have cellular connection in some way anyway?
I understand this has been the case since the mid-noughties, as part of a bolt-on to OBD II that is sometimes informally called "OBD III." This is a large part of the reason I say dystopia is already here.
Quote from: kalvado on March 08, 2023, 12:40:51 PMI can see disabling that connection as a part of mexicanizing the car anyway. An interesting question what would happen once new cars wouldn't run without proper connection - like MS Office which needs periodic validations. And that is a more realistic scenario IMHO, as first steps with remote updates and features disabling are already out there.
There would be efforts to patch the software so that the car continues to run even when it can't phone home successfully. But this would give the automakers even more of an incentive to encrypt their vehicles' operating software, which in turn raises right-to-repair concerns. It's a defensive-offensive seesaw.
Quote from: J N Winkler on March 08, 2023, 01:05:33 PM
Quote from: kalvado on March 08, 2023, 12:40:51 PMI believe all cars sold in US must have cellular connection in some way anyway?
I understand this has been the case since the mid-noughties, as part of a bolt-on to OBD II that is sometimes informally called "OBD III." This is a large part of the reason I say dystopia is already here.
Quote from: kalvado on March 08, 2023, 12:40:51 PMI can see disabling that connection as a part of mexicanizing the car anyway. An interesting question what would happen once new cars wouldn't run without proper connection - like MS Office which needs periodic validations. And that is a more realistic scenario IMHO, as first steps with remote updates and features disabling are already out there.
There would be efforts to patch the software so that the car continues to run even when it can't phone home successfully. But this would give the automakers even more of an incentive to encrypt their vehicles' operating software, which in turn raises right-to-repair concerns. It's a defensive-offensive seesaw.
And don't forget monthly fee for maintenance monitoring you cannot refuse without insurance consequences. Or something along those lines.
Quote from: thspfc on March 07, 2023, 11:08:14 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on March 07, 2023, 11:03:53 PM
Quote from: thspfc on March 07, 2023, 11:02:32 PM
How about a car that drives itself straight back to the dealership when you miss a payment.
That's literally what the patent proposes kind of
I am in full support of this because it would be hilarious.
Don't want robots to steal your car? Pay for it on time.
Until the robots go on strike because they're too busy making terrible art.
Quote from: SP Cook on March 07, 2023, 02:40:39 PM
Quote from: CtrlAltDel on March 07, 2023, 01:56:16 PM
SP, again in my view, is much less pro-rich than he is anti-poor.
I am 100% anti being poor. That is why I W O R K for a living.
I used to be one of those "I don't understand how people can just not pay their bills" people as well. Then, I got laid off and was un/underemployed for close to six months. Four years later, and I'm STILL recovering, financially. I had a rainy day fund and everything. It isn't always as simple as "work for a living." Really, it pisses me off that that happened four YEARS ago and the world still hasn't let me recover. Bottom line: bad things happen to good people, sometimes.
Someone could, theoretically, remove the battery from the car to avoid self-repossession. And yes, a repo person is not allowed to open a closed garage. I believe they are allowed to go on private property, but I'm not entirely certain of that.
Quote from: triplemultiplex on March 07, 2023, 10:58:35 AM
The entire idea of a self-repossesing car is predicated upon the assumption that self driving technology will be physically able and legally allowable on public roads. And I mean true self-driving, not this Tesla thing where it can sort of drive itself under ideal conditions but always with a human driver ready to take over.
While one can argue we are closing in on the former, I don't think the latter is a guarantee. There's going to be a mish-mash of state and local laws covering the legality of driverless automobiles for a long time, I figure, until the technology hits some kind of critical mass where it becomes politically expedient to do something at the federal level. The first time a truly autonomous vehicle hits and kills someone, the lawsuits will fly and the process of making driverless cars legal will bog down massively.
Which is quite absurd considering human drivers kill tens of thousands of people every single year, but if one robot car does it, suddenly it's Skynet trying to bump us off!
You haven't been keeping up. Self-driving cars are already here. (https://waymo.com/sf/)
Quote from: skluth on March 08, 2023, 05:38:00 PM
Quote from: triplemultiplex on March 07, 2023, 10:58:35 AM
The entire idea of a self-repossesing car is predicated upon the assumption that self driving technology will be physically able and legally allowable on public roads. And I mean true self-driving, not this Tesla thing where it can sort of drive itself under ideal conditions but always with a human driver ready to take over.
While one can argue we are closing in on the former, I don't think the latter is a guarantee. There's going to be a mish-mash of state and local laws covering the legality of driverless automobiles for a long time, I figure, until the technology hits some kind of critical mass where it becomes politically expedient to do something at the federal level. The first time a truly autonomous vehicle hits and kills someone, the lawsuits will fly and the process of making driverless cars legal will bog down massively.
Which is quite absurd considering human drivers kill tens of thousands of people every single year, but if one robot car does it, suddenly it's Skynet trying to bump us off!
You haven't been keeping up. Self-driving cars are already here. (https://waymo.com/sf/)
Looks like there is a lot of remote control involved...
Quote from: skluth on March 08, 2023, 05:38:00 PM
Quote from: triplemultiplex on March 07, 2023, 10:58:35 AM
The entire idea of a self-repossesing car is predicated upon the assumption that self driving technology will be physically able and legally allowable on public roads. And I mean true self-driving, not this Tesla thing where it can sort of drive itself under ideal conditions but always with a human driver ready to take over.
While one can argue we are closing in on the former, I don't think the latter is a guarantee. There's going to be a mish-mash of state and local laws covering the legality of driverless automobiles for a long time, I figure, until the technology hits some kind of critical mass where it becomes politically expedient to do something at the federal level. The first time a truly autonomous vehicle hits and kills someone, the lawsuits will fly and the process of making driverless cars legal will bog down massively.
Which is quite absurd considering human drivers kill tens of thousands of people every single year, but if one robot car does it, suddenly it's Skynet trying to bump us off!
You haven't been keeping up. Self-driving cars are already here. (https://waymo.com/sf/)
That is the stupidest looking car I have ever seen.
^^ The Homer?
(https://cdn.ebaumsworld.com/mediaFiles/picture/718392/85060988.jpg)
Quote from: ethanhopkin14 on March 09, 2023, 11:43:56 AM
That is the stupidest looking car I have ever seen.
I think the Canoo is stupider-looking.
(https://www.motortrend.com/uploads/2022/11/Canoo-LDV-28.jpg)
Quote from: Scott5114 on March 09, 2023, 04:14:06 PM
Quote from: ethanhopkin14 on March 09, 2023, 11:43:56 AM
That is the stupidest looking car I have ever seen.
I think the Canoo is stupider-looking.
(https://www.motortrend.com/uploads/2022/11/Canoo-LDV-28.jpg)
Or the Aztec...
I almost posted the Aztec too, but it seemed like too easy of an example. :D