Anyone want to hazard any guesses as to when they will extend SH-190/President George Bush Turnpike from I-30 (current termination) to I-20 aka Segment VIII? My guess is that it probably won't be until 2030 when the first shovel of dirt is turned over. It appears that NTTA's priority is to extend the Dallas North Tollway northward in preparation for the growth that is occurring in that area.
I'm skeptical the NTTA will be able to extend the PGBT on South of I-30 at all. Ever. They farted around for too many years doing nothing and have missed their shot. 15 years ago there was a lot of green field space between I-30 and I-20 by Lake Ray Hubbard and South of Rowlett Dam. Not anymore. If they want to extend the PGBT down to I-20 now the NTTA will damned near be forced to build a causeway over Lake Ray Hubbard and thru the wetlands along the East Fork of the Trinity River. Environmentalists and other groups would have a cow over that.
Quote from: Bobby5280 on March 12, 2023, 12:17:07 AM15 years ago there was a lot of green field space between I-30 and I-20 by Lake Ray Hubbard and South of Rowlett Dam. Not anymore.
Fifteen years ago would be... 2008. And, we knew what happened back then.
Why does the PGBT have two state Highway designations (TX 161, TX 190)? I would think one designation (or none) would suffice.
Quote from: The Ghostbuster on March 12, 2023, 12:43:06 PMWhy does the PGBT have two state Highway designations (TX 161, TX 190)? I would think one designation (or none) would suffice.
Those designations apply to the frontage roads, not to the tollway itself. Also, there is a portion of the PGBT near the DFW International that isn't tolled.
Quote from: The Ghostbuster on March 12, 2023, 12:43:06 PM
Why does the PGBT have two state Highway designations (TX 161, TX 190)? I would think one designation (or none) would suffice.
The entire outer loop project was originally Loop 9. But the Loop 9 designation became tarnished after controversy in the 1970s so it was rebranded in October 1977 to be SH 161 west of I-35E, and SH 190 east of I-35E. I don't know why the project was split at I-35E. I would need to look through my research notes, which are not readily available to me on the computer I'm using right now.
Of course, the Loop 9 designation still survives for the south section, which is currently under construction (frontage road only).
http://dfwfreeways.com/book/ExBush?startOdd=False
(http://dfwfreeways.com/book/ExBush?startOdd=False)
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fdfwfreeways.com%2Fimages%2Fbook%2FExBush%2F06_dallas_freeways-265.jpg&hash=d17bc2ed323fbfd4ad0fb9936da7da703592527c)
Recently available from NTTA
https://www.ntta.org/sites/default/files/2023-03/CPR_PGBT_EastBranchProj._SPRING_23_secure.pdf (https://www.ntta.org/sites/default/files/2023-03/CPR_PGBT_EastBranchProj._SPRING_23_secure.pdf)
According to the data sheet, planning is in progress. However, no timeline in provided.
When NTTA identifies a project to build, they always build it. (NTTA never committed to the canceled Trinity Parkway.) My best guess is for construction to start between 2026 and 2029.
All I can do is laugh and perhaps say to the NTTA, "good luck!"
The area where the Southeast extension of the PGBT from I-30 to I-20 was supposed to be built is already pretty covered up in relatively new residential development. By the 2026-29 time frame that area will be even more densely covered up in new development. It's easy to imagine a flurry of lawsuits between the state of Texas and property owners flying through the air like food items and lunch trays in the Animal House food fight scene.
Wikipedia mentions a proposed outerbelt called Loop 9, that might be connected to the PGBT: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Texas_State_Highway_Loop_9. Has anyone else heard of this? Although it won't be constructed for a couple decades, it seems pipe-dreamish to me. On the other hand, I could be wrong.
Quote from: The Ghostbuster on March 24, 2023, 11:44:20 AM
Wikipedia mentions a proposed outerbelt called Loop 9, that might be connected to the PGBT: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Texas_State_Highway_Loop_9. Has anyone else heard of this? Although it won't be constructed for a couple decades, it seems pipe-dreamish to me. On the other hand, I could be wrong.
A part of Loop-9 is built as a future service road between TX-121 and US-75 north of Melissa known as Collin County Outer Loop road.
https://www.google.com/maps/@33.3138288,-96.5639294,15z
Quote from: The Ghostbuster on March 24, 2023, 11:44:20 AM
Wikipedia mentions a proposed outerbelt called Loop 9, that might be connected to the PGBT: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Texas_State_Highway_Loop_9. Has anyone else heard of this? Although it won't be constructed for a couple decades, it seems pipe-dreamish to me. On the other hand, I could be wrong.
Loop 9 is not a pipe dream. The section from I-45 to I-35E south of Dallas is under construction (frontage road only). A public meeting was recently held for the next section going west, from I-35E to US 67.
https://www.keepitmovingdallas.com/public-hearings/2022/notice-of-availability-of-draft-environmental-impact-statement-eis-and-public-0 (https://www.keepitmovingdallas.com/public-hearings/2022/notice-of-availability-of-draft-environmental-impact-statement-eis-and-public-0)
Originally, the entire outer loop around Dallas was designated as Loop 9. But it encountered public opposition in the 1970s. In 1977, the north and east sections were renumbered as SH 190, and the west section became SH 161. The south section remained, but was left for dead. Eventually the south section was brought back to life and is now an active project.
Quote from: MaxConcrete on March 24, 2023, 05:49:34 PM
Loop 9 is not a pipe dream. The section from I-45 to I-35E south of Dallas is under construction (frontage road only). A public meeting was recently held for the next section going west, from I-35E to US 67.
https://www.keepitmovingdallas.com/public-hearings/2022/notice-of-availability-of-draft-environmental-impact-statement-eis-and-public-0 (https://www.keepitmovingdallas.com/public-hearings/2022/notice-of-availability-of-draft-environmental-impact-statement-eis-and-public-0)
And there some satellite shots who show the first gap of Loop 9 corridor showing the construction taken at different dates. Google maps didn't updated the shots of that area yet.
http://mapper.acme.com/?ll=32.55821,-96.67102&z=14&t=S
https://www.bing.com/maps?osid=430de98a-6a72-4dfe-a6c9-371554a55b34&cp=32.549028~-96.740387&lvl=14.01&style=a&pi=0&v=2&sV=2&form=S00027
https://satellites.pro/USA_map#32.547790,-96.738138,13
Maybe this would have worked 30 years ago, but between development that would have to be cleared and the opposition of rich homeowners in Sunnyvale, I can't see this ever being built. Not to mention the potential impacts on the drinking water in Lake Ray Hubbard.
The SH 205 corridor might work as an alternative. I imagine the traffic flows between Rockwall and Terrell are only going to increase.
Quote from: Urban Prairie Schooner on March 24, 2023, 10:20:51 PM
Maybe this would have worked 30 years ago, but between development that would have to be cleared and the opposition of rich homeowners in Sunnyvale, I can't see this ever being built. Not to mention the potential impacts on the drinking water in Lake Ray Hubbard.
The SH 205 corridor might work as an alternative. I imagine the traffic flows between Rockwall and Terrell are only going to increase.
The toughest part will be the area immediately south of I-30 where they have an apartment complex and a neighborhood right there where the current end of PGBT is. But once you get past that area, the proposed route goes east of most of the residential
areas, including Sunnyvale. The route will cross US-80 near Lawson rd.
Quote from: Stephane Dumas on March 24, 2023, 03:46:39 PM
Quote from: The Ghostbuster on March 24, 2023, 11:44:20 AM
Wikipedia mentions a proposed outerbelt called Loop 9, that might be connected to the PGBT: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Texas_State_Highway_Loop_9. Has anyone else heard of this? Although it won't be constructed for a couple decades, it seems pipe-dreamish to me. On the other hand, I could be wrong.
A part of Loop-9 is built as a future service road between TX-121 and US-75 north of Melissa known as Collin County Outer Loop road.
https://www.google.com/maps/@33.3138288,-96.5639294,15z
The Collin County Outer Loop has actually been progressing quite rapidly. A frontage road is now open between Dallas Parkway and Custer Road, as well as the aforementioned segment between US 75 and SH 121. Construction will begin later this year on connecting the two segments. East-west connectivity in the county is sorely lacking, and this new roadway will be a gamechanger.
The East Branch 190; according to the website NTTA FY2023-FY2025 Comprehensive Budget plan, and to my best understanding is that 36.5 mil already has been budgeted for ROW acquisition and design with an increase up to 71 million by 2025. Early, back in 2022, I contacted one of the representatives and he gave a rough estimate "In A Few Years". So, in my own opinion, and the possibility I'm in the direct pathway even closely adjacent to, and through myself research of the area, plus considering the now current construction on the I 30 bridge over Lake Ray Hubbard and the I 30-635 interchange are both scheduled to be completed by 2025; most likely, ROW acquisition for East Branch 190 will begin in 2025; and construction letting possibly will begin around 2026. My belief is that it will extend from the already half existing interchange at PGBT-I 30 in S Garland, Dallas County; continuing closely down by the lake into Sunnyvale; Kaufman County to highway 80 and Lawson Rd; these area's have less existing development... Furthermore, continues on to I 20. And, after the completion of The East Brach 190, Loop 9 E phase will start. It looks like, Loop 9 will intertwine with the already existing I 20.
The so-called Loop 9 is currently more of a Southern Metroplex thing, but it could be conceivably expanded to include Collin and Denton as at present NTTA is not involved in funding. The southern part is purely a TxDOT joint.
Texas tends to get things done, so I have hope they will build this section. The best way would actually be to build everything but the section immediately south of I-30 and have it dump out on a couple local roads. Then let motorists figure out how to get between the sections. After a while that will stimulate local support for a better solution, be that a realignment along the lake or a buyout of enough property to build a proper road.
It looks like quite a bit will have to be torn down immediately south of Interstate 30 to extend the PGBT. Some houses will have to be demolished on the south side of Barnes Bridge Rd. South of the Polly Rd./E. Town East Blvd./East Fork Rd. vicinity, there is open space where the PGBT extension could be constructed without any relocations necessary. I hope I am looking at the correct alignment for the PGBT extension.
Quote from: The Ghostbuster on August 22, 2023, 08:47:41 PM
It looks like quite a bit will have to be torn down immediately south of Interstate 30 to extend the PGBT. Some houses will have to be demolished on the south side of Barnes Bridge Rd. South of the Polly Rd./E. Town East Blvd./East Fork Rd. vicinity, there is open space where the PGBT extension could be constructed without any relocations necessary. I hope I am looking at the correct alignment for the PGBT extension.
Back in 2013, it was estimated that $84M would be needed for ROW acquisition for the extension ($110M in today's money). Looks like the average home value is about $300K just south of the current end of the PGBT. Assuming most of that funding will be needed for that area, that covers more than 300 homes.
NTTA would be funding this project right? If TxDot funded it I don't think they could afford $100M in right of way costs. I could maybe see NTTA funding it with all the toll revenue they make.
Quote from: BJ59 on August 29, 2023, 08:38:59 PM
NTTA would be funding this project right? If TxDot funded it I don't think they could afford $100M in right of way costs. I could maybe see NTTA funding it with all the toll revenue they make.
Yes, this would be funded by the NTTA.
https://www.nbcdfw.com/news/sports/its-time-legendary-racetrack-devils-bowl-to-close-after-50-years/3365353/
Speculators are buying up the PGB R.O.W. ...
It would be great if the PGBT East branch was done as a elevated highway. I am curious how will the schematics will look like?
According to the May 15 2024 NTTA Meeting
The PGBT East Branch total Project Budget is now $1,728,900,000.00 (Billions) On Schedule with no completion date posted.
It probably have to start soon since the I 30 Widening project starts around 2027 so it goes at par with others.
I will drop a link with this message so yall can learn more about.I30FergusontoBassPro (https://www.keepitmovingdallas.com/I30FergusontoBassPro)
Quote from: 05danper42842 on June 13, 2024, 06:24:27 PMAccording to the May 15 2024 NTTA Meeting
The PGBT East Branch total Project Budget is now $1,728,900. On Schedule with no completion date posted.
It probably have to start soon since the I 30 Widening project starts around 2027 so it goes at par with others.
I will drop a link with this message so yall can learn more about.I30FergusontoBassPro (https://www.keepitmovingdallas.com/I30FergusontoBassPro)
I feel sorry for the people who are using I-30 from Rockwall and Royce City to get to their North Dallas jobs. First, there was the 635 East Project (https://635east.com/) which runs from US-75 to Interstate 30 including a interchange reconstruction that started in 2020 and should conclude in next year. Then, there is the Lake Ray Hubbard projects that will take several years to complete. Now this.
Also in a few years they will also start planning on Redoing the famous I 30 Canyon from I 35E to us 75. Since that is connected to the Dallas to Houston High Speed Rail (Elevated Station). Also, in par with the Kay Bailey Hutchison Convention Center Dallas Redesign/Expansion. I 30 will continue to see construction all the way until 2030.
Quote from: 05danper42842 on June 13, 2024, 06:24:27 PMAccording to the May 15 2024 NTTA Meeting
The PGBT East Branch total Project Budget is now $1,728,900.
The project budget is $1.729
billion
I would like to inform you of the upcoming Public Scoping Meeting for the President George Bush Turnpike East Branch project.
NTTA is hosting an in-person Public Scoping Meeting on Tuesday, August 20, 2024, from 5:30 p.m. to 7:30 p.m. at the Mesquite Convention Center, located at 1750 Rodeo Drive, Mesquite, TX 75149.
The scoping meeting will provide an overview of the proposed project, the anticipated study schedule, the initial purpose and need, the range of alternatives under consideration, and the potential effects of each.
Check out the link to the original post in Facebook.
https://www.facebook.com/share/p/gRcVkQquTA1PBUNS/?mibextid=qi2Omg (https://www.facebook.com/share/p/gRcVkQquTA1PBUNS/?mibextid=qi2Omg)
The link below has the NTTA meeting announcement. Nothing new in the announcement.
Meeting annoucement (https://www.ntta.org/sites/default/files/2024-08/CPR_PGBT_EastBranchProj._August2024_secure.pdf?utm_source=iContact&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=north-texas-tollway-authority&utm_content=AUG.+2024+NTTA%40WORK+-+PGBT)
It's still wild to me that this apartment complex was allowed to be permitted and built directly in the path of the extension. That's likely a $25-35 million ROW acquisition alone, if based on market rates. The older neighborhood to the southeast is likely to be subsumed as well, as the only greenfield route beyond is near the west shore of Lake Ray Hubbard.
(https://i.ibb.co/qg2KG9h/PGBT-Sunnyvale.png)
Quote from: I-35 on August 20, 2024, 11:48:49 AMIt's still wild to me that this apartment complex was allowed to be permitted and built directly in the path of the extension. That's likely a $25-35 million ROW acquisition alone, if based on market rates. The older neighborhood to the southeast is likely to be subsumed as well, as the only greenfield route beyond is near the west shore of Lake Ray Hubbard.
(https://i.ibb.co/qg2KG9h/PGBT-Sunnyvale.png)
The aparments were there before the Eastern Extension was built. In Google Maps Streets the apartments were already there 2008. The study for Sh 190 Alignment began in 2004 but Txdot envisioned a outer loop outside of Dallas way back in the 1990s. But property owners must be self aware of any nearby future road construction project. Google Earth Pro Timeline could show much earlier by aerial imagery.
Quote from: 05danper42842 on August 20, 2024, 12:15:22 PMQuote from: I-35 on August 20, 2024, 11:48:49 AMIt's still wild to me that this apartment complex was allowed to be permitted and built directly in the path of the extension. That's likely a $25-35 million ROW acquisition alone, if based on market rates. The older neighborhood to the southeast is likely to be subsumed as well, as the only greenfield route beyond is near the west shore of Lake Ray Hubbard.
(https://i.ibb.co/qg2KG9h/PGBT-Sunnyvale.png)
The aparments were there before the Eastern Extension was built. In Google Maps Streets the apartments were already there 2008. The study for Sh 190 Alignment began in 2004 but Txdot envisioned a outer loop outside of Dallas way back in the 1990s. But property owners must be self aware of any nearby future road construction project. Google Earth Pro Timeline could show much earlier by aerial imagery.
This portion out front only dates to 2022. link (https://www.tdlr.texas.gov/TABS/Search/Project/TABS2021018315)
(https://i.ibb.co/TYDbVsJ/PGBT-2.png)
It's especially nutty how the Embree Hill Apartments complex was built so recently. The Phase I buildings were in 2018. The rest of them opened in 2022. It has been common knowledge the PGBT would eventually be extended directly through that land. But building permits were granted anyway.
Farther down, new subdivisions are continuing to jam-pack dozens upon dozens of new homes into any available land between Bobtown Road and Lake Ray Hubbard.
It's so stupid how the NTTA failed to take any steps to acquire ROW for this East Branch of the PGBT 15-20 years ago when far more of the land was vacant. To be fair, at the end of the 2000's the NTTA had to buy and demolish a decent number of existing properties just to connect the PGBT into I-30. There was a pretty big apartment complex on the North side of I-30 where the current "Y" interchange exists now.
Still, the stretch of ROW from I-30 to I-20 could have been secured more than a decade ago by simply building a 2-lane street with a bunch of vacant land off to the side of it. Now that they're blocked in by all kinds of new development any new PGBT alignment is going to require wiping out a lot of fairly new properties. Texas used to be pretty good at avoiding this sort of thing. They had better long term planning.
Take some :popcorn: before you read everything about NTTA August 20 Meeting.
As a Mesquite resident what I heard from others residents and elected officials alternative 2 is a instant no due to Lawson Rd already being utilized as a major Utilities corridor for the city and other governments.
Meeting materials and presentations, schematics are available in this link. (https://www.ntta.org/president-george-bush-turnpike-pgbt)
I think Alternative 1 looks like the better option. I'm kind of surprised they're able to skirt the East edge of all those new housing subdivisions while staying West of the Lake Hubbard Power Plant.
With the real estate market being so badly over-valued and ready to implode NTTA may be able to buy some properties in the proposed ROW at a discount if their timing is right. It seems likely there will be more public meetings and other legal stuff to deal with before a record of decision can be delivered. After all of that the NTTA can proceed with acquiring ROW.
The agenda (page 34) (https://www.nctcog.org/getmedia/ea598173-03f7-4aae-8329-1f47acdbd404/agendapacketrtc07102025.pdf?ext=.pdf) for the July 8 NCTCOG meeting has an item for SH 190 East Branch.
The decrease in engineering and increase in right-of-way suggests the engineering is partially complete and ROW acquisition is being poised to proceed.
The screenshot is for IH-30 to US 80. The section for US 80 to IH-20 is on the next page of the document and has identical amounts. It is not clear to me if the two projects are combined, or if there are separate identical amounts for each section.
Full size (https://dfwfreeways.blob.core.windows.net/photos/20250710-NCTCOG.png)
(https://dfwfreeways.blob.core.windows.net/photos/20250710-NCTCOG.png)