Found this when browsing the news today, and thought it would be worth sharing here:
OhioDOT and WVDOT sent a request to AASHTO to decommission I-70 in Wheeling due to the single-lane section and narrow medians, and the 45 mph speed limit that resulted from both. According to an ODOT spokesperson, "This section has been hopelessly under interstate standards for a long time and cannot continue existing in the interstate system." Effective immediately, I-70 would be rerouted along I-470 in the Wheeling area to provide a safer and higher quality interstate by default, and US 40 rerouted along the former I-70 alignment. The I-70 and I-470 interchange on the Ohio side will be rebuilt to favor through traffic movement onto the new eastbound I-70 (former I-470) on the left side of the road. The former US 40 alignment will become State Route 840 on both sides of the state line.
More information here (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xvFZjo5PgG0)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qKYQNtF11eg
Quote from: SkyPesos on April 01, 2023, 12:16:37 PM
OhioDOT and WVDOT sent a request to AASHTO to decommission I-70 in Wheeling
Wait, they sent a request to AASHTO? What I got of the info you linked was that officials went out in the middle of the night and changed the signs without telling anyone.
Quote from: SkyPesos on April 01, 2023, 12:16:37 PM
Found this when browsing the news today, and thought it would be worth sharing here:
OhioDOT and WVDOT sent a request to AASHTO to decommission I-70 in Wheeling due to the single-lane section and narrow medians, and the 45 mph speed limit that resulted from both. According to an ODOT spokesperson, "This section has been hopelessly under interstate standards for a long time and cannot continue existing in the interstate system." Effective immediately, I-70 would be rerouted along I-470 in the Wheeling area to provide a safer and higher quality interstate by default, and US 40 rerouted along the former I-70 alignment. The I-70 and I-470 interchange on the Ohio side will be rebuilt to favor through traffic movement onto the new eastbound I-70 (former I-470) on the left side of the road. The former US 40 alignment will become State Route 840 on both sides of the state line.
More information here (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xvFZjo5PgG0)
AASHTO was ok with it being substandard, and it was indeed signed as I-70 for how many years, but now it's not ok? How many millions are going to spent on the rebuild? The freeway into town is still going to be substandard. This seems downright silly and a terrible waste of taxpayer money.
I'm fine with this. Wheeling is not a big city at all whatsoever, and I-470 is more than enough. I looked at google street view on I-70 in Wheeling and the road looked to be super substandard.
Are they going to name it the Loof Lirpa Parkway?
I always thought the numbers should be flipped.
While they are at it, they should Route 70 along I-68 and stop torturing people through Breezewood PA. Not everybody is smart enough to come up with that alternate route. Or at the very least call it Alt 70.
I'm guessing this an April Fools joke. They just did a ton of construction through there on I-70 replacing bridges and whatnot. Even as strange as the designs are with only 1 lane being a "thru lane" I still like going that way a lot better in my truck than 470. 470 has a couple of pretty steep grades that I don't care too much for, while 70 is a lot flatter.
Quote from: TempoNick on April 02, 2023, 02:29:07 PM
I always thought the numbers should be flipped.
It all depends on if you think that 2di's should bypass the cities downtown or go through them. Very philosophical question that has been debated by generations of roadgeeks.
Quote from: US 41 on April 02, 2023, 02:36:25 PM
I'm guessing this an April Fools joke. ....
Someone beat you to it:
Quote from: 1995hoo on April 01, 2023, 06:17:11 PM
Are they going to name it the Loof Lirpa Parkway?
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on April 02, 2023, 03:32:13 PM
Quote from: TempoNick on April 02, 2023, 02:29:07 PM
I always thought the numbers should be flipped.
It all depends on if you think that 2di's should bypass the cities downtown or go through them. Very philosophical question that has been debated by generations of roadgeeks.
I-235 goes through Des Moines and I-80 / I-35 go around it. I do admit it's kind of weird, but only because we're not used to it. It works.
I've never been to Wheeling, but looking at the map and spread of the city it looks more analogous (but not an apples-to-apples) to 70/670 in Kansas City in that 470 doesn't strictly "bypass" Wheeling, but is just an easier route through. I'm aware the local authorities promote 470 for through traffic, but this is similar to other areas like Peoria, IL where IDOT asks thru traffic to use I-474.
As for the 2di vs. 3di, I don't think it's a one-size-fits-all. For Des Moines, it ideally keeps thru traffic for two major interstates out of the city (and I-235 is congested enough without that possibly having been added in had 35/80 been the route put through downtown, though the rationale 65 years ago may have been different than thinking about it in 2023). 44/244 in Tulsa may have been planned with similar thoughts of keeping thru traffic out of the core city. But most states just likely thought their major city/cities should get the 2di through it because it was more important and the city was more important.
Quote from: TheHighwayMan394 on April 03, 2023, 03:20:15 AM
I've never been to Wheeling, but looking at the map and spread of the city it looks more analogous (but not an apples-to-apples) to 70/670 in Kansas City in that 470 doesn't strictly "bypass" Wheeling, but is just an easier route through.
Well, this is certainly a quintessential example of ignorance leading one to a false conclusion.
Traveling I-470 is definitely much more than just an easier way through Wheeling and is a true bypass. Doesn't look that way on a map, but terrain in particular comes into play here.
And not only that, I can't figure out how I-470 "doesn't strictly bypass Wheeling." It literally does just that.
Quote from: Rothman on April 03, 2023, 06:58:16 AM
Quote from: TheHighwayMan394 on April 03, 2023, 03:20:15 AM
I've never been to Wheeling, but looking at the map and spread of the city it looks more analogous (but not an apples-to-apples) to 70/670 in Kansas City in that 470 doesn't strictly "bypass" Wheeling, but is just an easier route through.
Well, this is certainly a quintessential example of ignorance leading one to a false conclusion.
Traveling I-470 is definitely much more than just an easier way through Wheeling and is a true bypass. Doesn't look that way on a map, but terrain in particular comes into play here.
It depends what type of vehicle you are as to which is "easier." I-70's tunnel eliminates a significant grade that is present on I-470 in West Virginia, and I-70 in Ohio takes a gentler climb up to Saint Clairsville. For trucks, I-70 is generally the preferred route.
Quote from: Bitmapped on April 03, 2023, 08:53:11 AM
Quote from: Rothman on April 03, 2023, 06:58:16 AM
Quote from: TheHighwayMan394 on April 03, 2023, 03:20:15 AM
I've never been to Wheeling, but looking at the map and spread of the city it looks more analogous (but not an apples-to-apples) to 70/670 in Kansas City in that 470 doesn't strictly "bypass" Wheeling, but is just an easier route through.
Well, this is certainly a quintessential example of ignorance leading one to a false conclusion.
Traveling I-470 is definitely much more than just an easier way through Wheeling and is a true bypass. Doesn't look that way on a map, but terrain in particular comes into play here.
It depends what type of vehicle you are as to which is "easier." I-70's tunnel eliminates a significant grade that is present on I-470 in West Virginia, and I-70 in Ohio takes a gentler climb up to Saint Clairsville. For trucks, I-70 is generally the preferred route.
Ah, I know the grade you're talking about on I-470.
Isn't there signage for thru traffic to take I-470, though, including trucks? Can't remember if it's permanently installed or was only related to the big bridge project downtown.
Quote from: Rothman on April 03, 2023, 09:25:30 AM
Isn't there signage for thru traffic to take I-470, though, including trucks? Can't remember if it's permanently installed or was only related to the big bridge project downtown.
I mentioned something similar, but you were apparently having too much fun trying to insult me. :)
Quote from: TheHighwayMan394 on April 03, 2023, 12:49:59 PM
Quote from: Rothman on April 03, 2023, 09:25:30 AM
Isn't there signage for thru traffic to take I-470, though, including trucks? Can't remember if it's permanently installed or was only related to the big bridge project downtown.
I mentioned something similar, but you were apparently having too much fun trying to insult me. :)
Funny how similar just isn't quite the same...
Quote from: TheHighwayMan394 on April 03, 2023, 12:49:59 PM
Quote from: Rothman on April 03, 2023, 09:25:30 AM
Isn't there signage for thru traffic to take I-470, though, including trucks? Can't remember if it's permanently installed or was only related to the big bridge project downtown.
I mentioned something similar, but you were apparently having too much fun trying to insult me. :)
Signage when you're trying to make a split second decision at 75 mph. Everything should be predicated on making it easy for people who aren't familiar with the roads. In other words, travelers from other areas. For local traffic, you can call the road anything you want and give it any number you want. People can figure it out.
If you're going to make it easy for people from outside of the area, you flip the numbering.
Quote from: TempoNick on April 03, 2023, 01:23:36 PM
Quote from: TheHighwayMan394 on April 03, 2023, 12:49:59 PM
Quote from: Rothman on April 03, 2023, 09:25:30 AM
Isn't there signage for thru traffic to take I-470, though, including trucks? Can't remember if it's permanently installed or was only related to the big bridge project downtown.
I mentioned something similar, but you were apparently having too much fun trying to insult me. :)
Signage when you're trying to make a split second decision at 75 mph. Everything should be predicated on making it easy for people who aren't familiar with the roads. In other words, travelers from other areas. For local traffic, you can call the road anything you want and give it any number you want. People can figure it out.
If you're going to make it easy for people from outside of the area, you flip the numbering.
Signage exists asa red sign at 1.5 miles (https://www.google.com/maps/@40.0702902,-80.8804426,3a,75y,102.76h,79.04t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1spjhsXfZr9FuY3w39WomeEw!2e0!7i16384!8i8192), an oversized load sign at about 1.4 miles (https://www.google.com/maps/@40.0714056,-80.8748897,3a,90y,96.63h,73.06t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1ssL52qolZw7J4qTs4TiA1Zw!2e0!7i16384!8i8192), one mile out (https://www.google.com/maps/@40.0724778,-80.8679512,3a,90y,110.41h,91.14t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sFe_kEg7Oy6O8ItiDusHbmQ!2e0!7i16384!8i8192), a standard half-mile exit sign (https://www.google.com/maps/@40.0712174,-80.8608933,3a,90y,92.88h,84.37t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s9KC8J_uCYQSFd3T1fu3k_w!2e0!7i16384!8i8192), another red "Through Traffic use I-470" sign just before an APL BGS (https://www.google.com/maps/@40.0695666,-80.8538119,3a,88.2y,106.7h,99.47t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1svw8wyPWDICQKIzmCZkon7Q!2e0!7i16384!8i8192), and another set of BGSs at the gore point (https://www.google.com/maps/@40.0691359,-80.8498731,3a,75y,91.24h,95.08t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sWqx5PR2bLIHcwT-RZTvBMQ!2e0!7i16384!8i8192). At the speed limit of 65, the furthest notification is 83 seconds before the split. Even at 75 mph you have 72 seconds to make your decision. That's hardly a split second decision even for an unfamiliar driver unless the driver's head is buried in his cell phone.
Quote from: zzcarp on April 03, 2023, 01:50:29 PM
Quote from: TempoNick on April 03, 2023, 01:23:36 PM
Quote from: TheHighwayMan394 on April 03, 2023, 12:49:59 PM
Quote from: Rothman on April 03, 2023, 09:25:30 AM
Isn't there signage for thru traffic to take I-470, though, including trucks? Can't remember if it's permanently installed or was only related to the big bridge project downtown.
I mentioned something similar, but you were apparently having too much fun trying to insult me. :)
Signage when you're trying to make a split second decision at 75 mph. Everything should be predicated on making it easy for people who aren't familiar with the roads. In other words, travelers from other areas. For local traffic, you can call the road anything you want and give it any number you want. People can figure it out.
If you're going to make it easy for people from outside of the area, you flip the numbering.
Signage exists asa red sign at 1.5 miles (https://www.google.com/maps/@40.0702902,-80.8804426,3a,75y,102.76h,79.04t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1spjhsXfZr9FuY3w39WomeEw!2e0!7i16384!8i8192), an oversized load sign at about 1.4 miles (https://www.google.com/maps/@40.0714056,-80.8748897,3a,90y,96.63h,73.06t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1ssL52qolZw7J4qTs4TiA1Zw!2e0!7i16384!8i8192), one mile out (https://www.google.com/maps/@40.0724778,-80.8679512,3a,90y,110.41h,91.14t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sFe_kEg7Oy6O8ItiDusHbmQ!2e0!7i16384!8i8192), a standard half-mile exit sign (https://www.google.com/maps/@40.0712174,-80.8608933,3a,90y,92.88h,84.37t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s9KC8J_uCYQSFd3T1fu3k_w!2e0!7i16384!8i8192), another red "Through Traffic use I-470" sign just before an APL BGS (https://www.google.com/maps/@40.0695666,-80.8538119,3a,88.2y,106.7h,99.47t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1svw8wyPWDICQKIzmCZkon7Q!2e0!7i16384!8i8192), and another set of BGSs at the gore point (https://www.google.com/maps/@40.0691359,-80.8498731,3a,75y,91.24h,95.08t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sWqx5PR2bLIHcwT-RZTvBMQ!2e0!7i16384!8i8192). At the speed limit of 65, the furthest notification is 83 seconds before the split. Even at 75 mph you have 72 seconds to make your decision. That's hardly a split second decision even for an unfamiliar driver unless the driver's head is buried in his cell phone.
Signs say one thing, but there is always doubt if you haven't driven through there before. That 470 number could mean anything if you don't know the lay of the land there. For all you know, they could be forcing you to drive 10 or 20 miles out of your way. (Like taking I-270 as a bypass around Columbus, but using it to continue on I-70.) Keeping the same number makes it simple.
I drive I-74 through Peoria quite often. I see the bypass sign, but I still stay on I-74. I may have taken the bypass once. If it ain't broke, don't fix it.
Quote from: zzcarp on April 03, 2023, 01:50:29 PM
Quote from: TempoNick on April 03, 2023, 01:23:36 PM
Quote from: TheHighwayMan394 on April 03, 2023, 12:49:59 PM
Quote from: Rothman on April 03, 2023, 09:25:30 AM
Isn't there signage for thru traffic to take I-470, though, including trucks? Can't remember if it's permanently installed or was only related to the big bridge project downtown.
I mentioned something similar, but you were apparently having too much fun trying to insult me. :)
Signage when you're trying to make a split second decision at 75 mph. Everything should be predicated on making it easy for people who aren't familiar with the roads. In other words, travelers from other areas. For local traffic, you can call the road anything you want and give it any number you want. People can figure it out.
If you're going to make it easy for people from outside of the area, you flip the numbering.
Signage exists asa red sign at 1.5 miles (https://www.google.com/maps/@40.0702902,-80.8804426,3a,75y,102.76h,79.04t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1spjhsXfZr9FuY3w39WomeEw!2e0!7i16384!8i8192), an oversized load sign at about 1.4 miles (https://www.google.com/maps/@40.0714056,-80.8748897,3a,90y,96.63h,73.06t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1ssL52qolZw7J4qTs4TiA1Zw!2e0!7i16384!8i8192), one mile out (https://www.google.com/maps/@40.0724778,-80.8679512,3a,90y,110.41h,91.14t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sFe_kEg7Oy6O8ItiDusHbmQ!2e0!7i16384!8i8192), a standard half-mile exit sign (https://www.google.com/maps/@40.0712174,-80.8608933,3a,90y,92.88h,84.37t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s9KC8J_uCYQSFd3T1fu3k_w!2e0!7i16384!8i8192), another red "Through Traffic use I-470" sign just before an APL BGS (https://www.google.com/maps/@40.0695666,-80.8538119,3a,88.2y,106.7h,99.47t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1svw8wyPWDICQKIzmCZkon7Q!2e0!7i16384!8i8192), and another set of BGSs at the gore point (https://www.google.com/maps/@40.0691359,-80.8498731,3a,75y,91.24h,95.08t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sWqx5PR2bLIHcwT-RZTvBMQ!2e0!7i16384!8i8192). At the speed limit of 65, the furthest notification is 83 seconds before the split. Even at 75 mph you have 72 seconds to make your decision. That's hardly a split second decision even for an unfamiliar driver unless the driver's head is buried in his cell phone.
Those are orange construction signs, not red. They were temporary signage for the I-70 bridge reconstruction project which is wrapping up during which I-70 was down to one lane across several bridges and, for part of the time, was closed entirely.
I-470 is signed as the distant control city (Washington, PA or Columbus, OH) when it splits off I-70, with the mainline signed for Wheeling. Otherwise, there is nothing prior to the splits telling through traffic to use I-470 in normal times.
Quote from: TempoNick on April 03, 2023, 01:23:36 PM
Quote from: TheHighwayMan394 on April 03, 2023, 12:49:59 PM
Quote from: Rothman on April 03, 2023, 09:25:30 AM
Isn't there signage for thru traffic to take I-470, though, including trucks? Can't remember if it's permanently installed or was only related to the big bridge project downtown.
I mentioned something similar, but you were apparently having too much fun trying to insult me. :)
Signage when you're trying to make a split second decision at 75 mph. Everything should be predicated on making it easy for people who aren't familiar with the roads. In other words, travelers from other areas. For local traffic, you can call the road anything you want and give it any number you want. People can figure it out.
If you're going to make it easy for people from outside of the area, you flip the numbering.
Why would you flip the numbering? Standard numbering convention is that the mainline goes through the city while the even 3di goes around the city. And how often does taking the 3di around the city add significant travel time?
Quote from: SEWIGuy on April 03, 2023, 02:33:56 PM
And how often does taking the 3di around the city add significant travel time?
If it's a beltway, it can easily add time. There's numerous examples of this.
Quote from: sprjus4 on April 03, 2023, 02:43:18 PM
Quote from: SEWIGuy on April 03, 2023, 02:33:56 PM
And how often does taking the 3di around the city add significant travel time?
If it's a beltway, it can easily add time. There's numerous examples of this.
Adding significant travel time is pretty rare.
Quote from: SEWIGuy on April 03, 2023, 02:33:56 PM
Why would you flip the numbering? Standard numbering convention is that the mainline goes through the city while the even 3di goes around the city. And how often does taking the 3di around the city add significant travel time?
Because it seems like the natural flow of i-70 would be the way the bypass runs. It also dovetails with the existing roads on either side of it better and it's a more modern piece of road. In fact, if I had to redesign the interstate highway system, I would use the early designs Ohio had where their would be a 20 mi separation between the major cities and where the freeway passes. Local freeways could handle the in town traffic and it wouldn't matter how you signed them.
I-70 runs south of Harrisburg ?, Hagerstown, Pittsburgh and north of Dayton. Why shouldn't it run south of Wheeling? Why shouldn't it be free flowing everywhere instead of clogged up going through downtown areas?
Does Wheeling get "clogged up?" It has 27,000 people.
Quote from: SEWIGuy on April 03, 2023, 06:59:13 PM
Does Wheeling get "clogged up?" It has 27,000 people.
One lane freeways get clogged up everywhere. If US 33 has to be four lane south of Athens because of traffic, I can't imagine I-70 has less of a need for four lanes all the way through.
Quote from: TempoNick on April 03, 2023, 08:28:44 PM
Quote from: SEWIGuy on April 03, 2023, 06:59:13 PM
Does Wheeling get "clogged up?" It has 27,000 people.
One lane freeways get clogged up everywhere. If US 33 has to be four lane south of Athens because of traffic, I can't imagine I-70 has less of a need for four lanes all the way through.
So you don't know either.
Quote from: SEWIGuy on April 03, 2023, 06:59:13 PM
Does Wheeling get "clogged up?" It has 27,000 people.
Since when does population dictate traffic congestion along a highway? I-95 passes by a town of 3,000 but is still bumper to bumper carrying over 100,000 vehicles per day. Population is irrelevant.
Quote from: sprjus4 on April 03, 2023, 09:28:33 PM
Quote from: SEWIGuy on April 03, 2023, 06:59:13 PM
Does Wheeling get "clogged up?" It has 27,000 people.
Since when does population dictate traffic congestion along a highway? I-95 passes by a town of 3,000 but is still bumper to bumper carrying over 100,000 vehicles per day. Population is irrelevant.
So you don't know either.
Quote from: SEWIGuy on April 03, 2023, 09:33:14 PM
Quote from: sprjus4 on April 03, 2023, 09:28:33 PM
Quote from: SEWIGuy on April 03, 2023, 06:59:13 PM
Does Wheeling get "clogged up?" It has 27,000 people.
Since when does population dictate traffic congestion along a highway? I-95 passes by a town of 3,000 but is still bumper to bumper carrying over 100,000 vehicles per day. Population is irrelevant.
So you don't know either.
So... you also don't know either :clap:
Quote from: sprjus4 on April 03, 2023, 09:28:33 PM
Since when does population dictate traffic congestion along a highway? I-95 passes by a town of 3,000 but is still bumper to bumper carrying over 100,000 vehicles per day. Population is irrelevant.
Not to mention that Wheeling is also adjacent to several towns in that region such as St Clairsville and Martins Ferry. There's enough population in the area to support a couple of TV stations.
C'mon man. It was an April Fools joke! :)
Quote from: sprjus4 on April 03, 2023, 09:34:25 PM
Quote from: SEWIGuy on April 03, 2023, 09:33:14 PM
Quote from: sprjus4 on April 03, 2023, 09:28:33 PM
Quote from: SEWIGuy on April 03, 2023, 06:59:13 PM
Does Wheeling get "clogged up?" It has 27,000 people.
Since when does population dictate traffic congestion along a highway? I-95 passes by a town of 3,000 but is still bumper to bumper carrying over 100,000 vehicles per day. Population is irrelevant.
So you don't know either.
So... you also don't know either :clap:
Yep. Which is why I asked the question.
Quote from: SEWIGuy on April 04, 2023, 05:37:22 AM
Quote from: sprjus4 on April 03, 2023, 09:34:25 PM
Quote from: SEWIGuy on April 03, 2023, 09:33:14 PM
Quote from: sprjus4 on April 03, 2023, 09:28:33 PM
Quote from: SEWIGuy on April 03, 2023, 06:59:13 PM
Does Wheeling get "clogged up?" It has 27,000 people.
Since when does population dictate traffic congestion along a highway? I-95 passes by a town of 3,000 but is still bumper to bumper carrying over 100,000 vehicles per day. Population is irrelevant.
So you don't know either.
So... you also don't know either :clap:
Yep. Which is why I asked the question.
sprjus walked into that one.
Just dawned on me that this thread's on the wrong board.
I think the Breezewood situation would be remedied before I-70 gets rerouted through Wheeling.
Quote from: Rothman on April 04, 2023, 07:19:05 AM
sprjus walked into that one.
;-)
Quote
Just dawned on me that this thread's on the wrong board.
I'm pretty sure that happened with all the April Fool's posts.
Quote from: roadman65 on April 04, 2023, 07:48:48 AM
I think the Breezewood situation would be remedied before I-70 gets rerouted through Wheeling.
Unfortunately, I don't think either will happen. I-70 is fine through Wheeling, IMO, although Breezewood does need to be fixed.
Quote from: sprjus4 on April 04, 2023, 08:48:11 AM
I'm pretty sure that happened with all the April Fool's posts.
This thread isn't in the wrong board because of April Fools. It's because West Virginia belongs in Mid-Atlantic.
Quote from: 1 on April 04, 2023, 09:12:28 AM
Quote from: sprjus4 on April 04, 2023, 08:48:11 AM
I'm pretty sure that happened with all the April Fool's posts.
This thread isn't in the wrong board because of April Fools. It's because West Virginia belongs in Mid-Atlantic.
We're only talking about the Ohio portion of I-70 and I-470.
Quote from: SEWIGuy on April 04, 2023, 09:42:33 AM
We're only talking about the Ohio portion of I-70 and I-470.
True.
This is about why should the Ohio side be forced to drive through Wheeling by default. We don't have to drive through downtown St Clairsville or downtown Martins Ferry. What makes Wheeling so special?
Quote from: TempoNick on April 04, 2023, 10:27:36 AM
Quote from: SEWIGuy on April 04, 2023, 09:42:33 AM
We're only talking about the Ohio portion of I-70 and I-470.
True.
This is about why should the Ohio side be forced to drive through Wheeling by default. We don't have to drive through downtown St Clairsville or downtown Martins Ferry. What makes Wheeling so special?
To be honest, it would be better for everyone to just build a I-70 bridge over West Virginia entirely.
Quote from: SEWIGuy on April 04, 2023, 11:18:06 AM
To be honest, it would be better for everyone to just build a I-70 bridge over West Virginia entirely.
That way it would go directly from the Great Lakes and Ohio Valley forum directly to the Northeast forum, instead of taking that 14.5-mile detour into the Southeast forum. Now I get it. :pan:
Quote from: TempoNick on April 04, 2023, 10:27:36 AM
Quote from: SEWIGuy on April 04, 2023, 09:42:33 AM
We're only talking about the Ohio portion of I-70 and I-470.
True.
This is about why should the Ohio side be forced to drive through Wheeling by default. We don't have to drive through downtown St Clairsville or downtown Martins Ferry. What makes Wheeling so special?
Knowing West Virginia's political history, I wonder if a Mountain State Senator or Congressman saw to it that I-70 went through Wheeling instead of around Wheeling.
Quote from: SEWIGuy on April 04, 2023, 09:42:33 AM
We're only talking about the Ohio portion of I-70 and I-470.
Quote from: TempoNick on April 04, 2023, 10:27:36 AM
True.
This is about why should the Ohio side be forced to drive through Wheeling by default. We don't have to drive through downtown St Clairsville or downtown Martins Ferry. What makes Wheeling so special?
Quote from: Ted$8roadFan on April 04, 2023, 01:45:18 PM
Knowing West Virginia's political history, I wonder if a Mountain State Senator or Congressman saw to it that I-70 went through Wheeling instead of around Wheeling.
Neither. When the Ninth Street Bridge opened to US-40/US-250 traffic between downtown Wheeling and Wheeling in September 1955 (bypassing the legendary Wheeling Suspension Bridge), it was technically the first section of freeway in the Mountain State. This became the obvious path for I-70, with the State Road Commission preferring a direct eastward extension in what became the Wheeling Tunnel. AASHO tried to talk the State Road Commission into a longer route following US-40 around the north side of Wheeling Hill.
For those not convinced that the I-470 routing would have been cheaper than constructing the twin-tube Wheeling Tunnel, the Ninth Street Bridge (now Fort Henry Bridge) took four years to complete in 1955 and cost $6.8M, whereas the Wheeling Tunnel took three years to complete in 1966 and cost a mere $6.9M. For those doing the math, the midpoint for the Fort Henry Bridge costs was about 1953(1Q) and the midpoint for the tunnels was 1965(3Q). In today's dollars, the bridge cost roughly $76.7M and the tunnels cost roughly $65.0M. Hand's down, less expensive to route the Interstate through downtown Wheeling over an existing bridge than to construct a new bridge over the Ohio River.
On the other hand, the State Road Commission saw the need for a bypass of downtown Wheeling early in the construction of I-70 and started pushing FHWA back in 1958 for an Interstate bypass to be numbered I-270 (oops, Ohio already got that one). The Vietnam Veterans Memorial bridge wasn't completed until 1983 at a cost of $54.0M. Originally a six-year project, that would have cost a whopping $249.2M in today's dollars (the opening was delayed because of ODOT issues with the OH-7 interchange, but I'm not sure that this contributed to any additional costs). But keep in mind, the Fort Henry Bridge only crosses *half* of the Ohio River.
Quote from: SEWIGuy on April 03, 2023, 02:33:56 PM
Quote from: TempoNick on April 03, 2023, 01:23:36 PM
Quote from: TheHighwayMan394 on April 03, 2023, 12:49:59 PM
Quote from: Rothman on April 03, 2023, 09:25:30 AM
Isn't there signage for thru traffic to take I-470, though, including trucks? Can't remember if it's permanently installed or was only related to the big bridge project downtown.
I mentioned something similar, but you were apparently having too much fun trying to insult me. :)
Signage when you're trying to make a split second decision at 75 mph. Everything should be predicated on making it easy for people who aren't familiar with the roads. In other words, travelers from other areas. For local traffic, you can call the road anything you want and give it any number you want. People can figure it out.
If you're going to make it easy for people from outside of the area, you flip the numbering.
Why would you flip the numbering? Standard numbering convention is that the mainline goes through the city while the even 3di goes around the city. And how often does taking the 3di around the city add significant travel time?
You haven't been to Asheville, have you? Or Knoxville? (I'm old enough to remember when there was no I-640 and I-75 ran downtown along what is now I-275 to intersect with I-40 there instead of on the west side of town.)
I remember notations on oil company road maps from my youth that said 3dis with even first numbers were loops into or around the city, while odd first numbers denoted a spur.
Not to brag or anything, but I didn't get taken in by any April Fools jokes I saw anywhere. I was able to discern them right off the bat. (Actually, yes, I guess I am bragging :-D ).
Would it be possible for someone to go in and add "April Fools" to the subjects of these threads? It might tamp down some of the BS that results from them. In this particular instance, I knew it was a joke, but the subject has seriously come up in the past and no new ground has really been covered in the discussion here.
Quote from: TheHighwayMan394 on April 03, 2023, 03:20:15 AM
I've never been to Wheeling, but looking at the map and spread of the city it looks more analogous (but not an apples-to-apples) to 70/670 in Kansas City in that 470 doesn't strictly "bypass" Wheeling, but is just an easier route through. I'm aware the local authorities promote 470 for through traffic, but this is similar to other areas like Peoria, IL where IDOT asks thru traffic to use I-474.
As for the 2di vs. 3di, I don't think it's a one-size-fits-all. For Des Moines, it ideally keeps thru traffic for two major interstates out of the city (and I-235 is congested enough without that possibly having been added in had 35/80 been the route put through downtown, though the rationale 65 years ago may have been different than thinking about it in 2023). 44/244 in Tulsa may have been planned with similar thoughts of keeping thru traffic out of the core city. But most states just likely thought their major city/cities should get the 2di through it because it was more important and the city was more important.
I-44 in Tulsa was planned as a southern bypass loop around the outside of the city and I-244 as the highway planned through downtown. The bypass was built first so today it's I-44. Tulsa decades ago outgrew I-44 as a "bypass" and now it's just the dividing line between midtown Tulsa and south Tulsa.
Quote from: 1 on April 04, 2023, 09:12:28 AM
Quote from: sprjus4 on April 04, 2023, 08:48:11 AM
I'm pretty sure that happened with all the April Fool's posts.
This thread isn't in the wrong board because of April Fools. It's because West Virginia belongs in Mid-Atlantic.
The West Virginia German helmet spike belongs to the Midwest as much as it does the Mid-Atlantic, and definitely does not belong to any of the various South discussions.
Quote from: Road Hog on April 05, 2023, 06:39:23 PM
The West Virginia German helmet spike belongs to the Midwest as much as it does the Mid-Atlantic, and definitely does not belong to any of the various South discussions.
Ohio and West Virginia have always had a symbiotic relationship (moreso from the West Virginia side). Ohio is the number one state for outmigration from West Virginia. A well-worn old phrase in West Virginia and Kentucky is that they teach you the three R's in school: Readin', ritin' and Route 23 (to Columbus for a job). Some say Akron is the capital of West Virginia.
Kentucky is included in this section and I think rightfully so. I think you could also make a case to include West Virginia, though I realize you have to draw the line somewhere.
Quote from: TempoNick on April 05, 2023, 08:17:06 PM
Quote from: Road Hog on April 05, 2023, 06:39:23 PM
The West Virginia German helmet spike belongs to the Midwest as much as it does the Mid-Atlantic, and definitely does not belong to any of the various South discussions.
Ohio and West Virginia have always had a symbiotic relationship (moreso from the West Virginia side).
First, symbiotic can't be moreso.
Second, OH and WV hate each other.
Quote from: Rothman on April 05, 2023, 08:21:41 PM
First, symbiotic can't be moreso.
Second, OH and WV hate each other.
West Virginia needs us more than we need them, but we still do need them. There has always been a lot of interplay between the two states. More than most neighboring states.
Ohio and West Virginia hating each other is ridiculous. Not true at all.
Maybe we should stop posting April Fool's Day jokes in the forum. Otherwise, the joke may one day truly be on us.
Quote from: The Ghostbuster on April 05, 2023, 09:38:01 PM
Maybe we should stop posting April Fool's Day jokes in the forum. Otherwise, the joke may one day truly be on us.
Or at least lock them, since it's obvious that none of these things will ever become reality.
(Although there actually is merit in making the bypass into the new I-70 and the old one downgraded to either a Business Loop or I-470. And it also wouldn't be the first 2di/3di flip-around either, with I-76 and I-676 in Philly being the precedent.)
Quote from: TempoNick on April 05, 2023, 09:35:16 PM
Quote from: Rothman on April 05, 2023, 08:21:41 PM
First, symbiotic can't be moreso.
Second, OH and WV hate each other.
West Virginia needs us more than we need them, but we still do need them. There has always been a lot of interplay between the two states. More than most neighboring states.
Ohio and West Virginia hating each other is ridiculous. Not true at all.
https://www.reddit.com/r/WestVirginia/comments/38wyyp/why_do_west_virginians_dislike_ohioans/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android_app&utm_name=androidcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button
Quote from: TempoNick on April 05, 2023, 08:17:06 PM
A well-worn old phrase in West Virginia and Kentucky is that they teach you the three R's in school: Readin', ritin' and Route 23 (to Columbus for a job).
I remember this one from my day. But for the past 25 years, the saying is now "readin', ritin' and road to Charlotte".
Quote from: TempoNick on April 05, 2023, 09:35:16 PM
Quote from: Rothman on April 05, 2023, 08:21:41 PM
First, symbiotic can't be moreso.
Second, OH and WV hate each other.
West Virginia needs us more than we need them, but we still do need them. There has always been a lot of interplay between the two states. More than most neighboring states.
Ohio and West Virginia hating each other is ridiculous. Not true at all.
There's a meme out there about which states hate each other. Ohio and Michigan hate each other in that representation; Virginia and West Virginia hate each other.
A couple of interesting observations from that are that Kentucky hates Tennessee, but both Tennessee and Indiana hate Kentucky; New Jersey hates everyone; and Florida hates itself.
Quote from: Rothman on April 06, 2023, 07:03:32 AM
Quote from: TempoNick on April 05, 2023, 09:35:16 PM
Quote from: Rothman on April 05, 2023, 08:21:41 PM
First, symbiotic can't be moreso.
Second, OH and WV hate each other.
West Virginia needs us more than we need them, but we still do need them. There has always been a lot of interplay between the two states. More than most neighboring states.
Ohio and West Virginia hating each other is ridiculous. Not true at all.
https://www.reddit.com/r/WestVirginia/comments/38wyyp/why_do_west_virginians_dislike_ohioans/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android_app&utm_name=androidcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button
Your proof is a thread in Reddit?
Quote from: Dirt Roads on April 06, 2023, 01:01:14 PM
I remember this one from my day. But for the past 25 years, the saying is now "readin', ritin' and road to Charlotte".
Ohio is still the number one state for outmigration though.
Quote from: Rothman on April 06, 2023, 07:03:32 AM
Quote from: TempoNick on April 05, 2023, 09:35:16 PM
Quote from: Rothman on April 05, 2023, 08:21:41 PM
First, symbiotic can't be moreso.
Second, OH and WV hate each other.
West Virginia needs us more than we need them, but we still do need them. There has always been a lot of interplay between the two states. More than most neighboring states.
Ohio and West Virginia hating each other is ridiculous. Not true at all.
https://www.reddit.com/r/WestVirginia/comments/38wyyp/why_do_west_virginians_dislike_ohioans/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android_app&utm_name=androidcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button
The only thing widely disliked about Ohioans by West Virginians is their propensity to drive 55 in the fast lane. I know a lot of West Virginians who have moved to Ohio (and sometimes back) or have family there. I also know of a number of people who, like me, moved from Ohio to West Virginia.
The areas along the Ohio River are pretty economically interdependent across both sides of the river. It's not unusual for people to cross the river for work or shopping. There's no animosity or anything unusual about going from one state to the other.
Quote from: Bitmapped on April 06, 2023, 10:52:30 PM
The only thing widely disliked about Ohioans by West Virginians is their propensity to drive 55 in the fast lane. I know a lot of West Virginians who have moved to Ohio (and sometimes back) or have family there. I also know of a number of people who, like me, moved from Ohio to West Virginia.
The areas along the Ohio River are pretty economically interdependent across both sides of the river. It's not unusual for people to cross the river for work or shopping. There's no animosity or anything unusual about going from one state to the other.
From the standpoint of somebody who grew up in the Columbus area, I've always considered Wheeling, Parkersburg and Huntington/Ashland to be kind of in the Columbus orbit. Lots of flow of people and business in both directions.
That's also why the idea of four-laning US 33 all the way to I-77 isn't really all that crazy.
Quote from: Bitmapped on April 06, 2023, 10:52:30 PM
The only thing widely disliked about Ohioans by West Virginians is their propensity to drive 55 in the fast lane.
I can't say it's the only thing Kentuckians dislike about Buckeyes, but it's way up there on the list.
Quote from: TempoNick on April 07, 2023, 01:32:21 AM
From the standpoint of somebody who grew up in the Columbus area, I've always considered Wheeling, Parkersburg and Huntington/Ashland to be kind of in the Columbus orbit. Lots of flow of people and business in both directions.
Huntington/Ashland and Parkersburg, barely, as in the Columbus is the closest large city sense of things. On a day-to-day basis, nope. If anything, Huntington/Ashland and Parkersburg serve as anchors for adjoining counties from Ohio.
Wheeling - absolutely not. Wheeling and the upper Ohio Valley (Steubenville/Weirton) are much more closely tied to Pittsburgh.
Quote from: Bitmapped on April 07, 2023, 11:09:15 AM
Huntington/Ashland and Parkersburg, barely, as in the Columbus is the closest large city sense of things. On a day-to-day basis, nope. If anything, Huntington/Ashland and Parkersburg serve as anchors for adjoining counties from Ohio.
Wheeling - absolutely not. Wheeling and the upper Ohio Valley (Steubenville/Weirton) are much more closely tied to Pittsburgh.
You'd be surprised the number of people here from places like Martins Ferry and St Clairsville and all those other little towns around here. Of course, Pittsburgh is closer, but Columbus is also in the mix. That's what creates the connection and the back and forth. And if you follow just the way business ebbed and flowed, Lazarus was down in Huntington, now Big Sandy is up in Columbus as one of the first markets expanded to from their home turf. It's hard to put numbers to it it's just a sense and also because those bordertown media markets extend way into Ohio.
In my experience, Cincinnati is more the big city for Huntington and points south into eastern KY than Columbus.
^^^^
Back when the only mall in West Virginia was the Grand Central Mall between Vienna and Parkersburg, we would drive from Teays Valley to there in the off-season and then rotate years going to malls in Cincinnati, Lexington and Columbus. Big-time shopping was a similar for other families in both Charleston and Huntington. The Huntington Mall in Barboursville opened in 1981 and the Charleston Town Center opened a few years later.
Quote from: Rothman on April 07, 2023, 02:18:41 PM
In my experience, Cincinnati is more the big city for Huntington and points south into eastern KY than Columbus.
I remember a decent number of West Virginia license plates in the parking lots of Northland and Eastland Mall on the weekends back in the day. Readin', ritin' and Route 23 was a real thing.
Quote from: Dirt Roads on April 07, 2023, 03:28:06 PM
^^^^
Back when the only mall in West Virginia was the Grand Central Mall between Vienna and Parkersburg, we would drive from Teays Valley to there in the off-season and then rotate years going to malls in Cincinnati, Lexington and Columbus. Big-time shopping was a similar for other families in both Charleston and Huntington. The Huntington Mall in Barboursville opened in 1981 and the Charleston Town Center opened a few years later.
When I was attending Morehead State, I dated a student whose family lived locally. We started seeing each other in the spring of 1982. We made several trips to Huntington Mall, just the two of us and also with her mom. I didn't realize that mall was that new.
Quote from: TempoNick on April 07, 2023, 08:20:19 PM
Quote from: Rothman on April 07, 2023, 02:18:41 PM
In my experience, Cincinnati is more the big city for Huntington and points south into eastern KY than Columbus.
I remember a decent number of West Virginia license plates in the parking lots of Northland and Eastland Mall on the weekends back in the day. Readin', ritin' and Route 23 was a real thing.
Um...okay.
Quote from: Rothman on April 08, 2023, 10:52:49 AM
Um...okay.
One response is not scientific but I put it up for a question on a local board in Huntington. This guy had some good thoughts so I'm cutting and pasting.
It sounds like the connection to Cincinnati is about sports, which makes sense since the Cincinnati Reds and Bengals were always big in Huntington. For business and personal, it sounds like Columbus is more of their hub city
Quote
In all honesty, I'd say it's pretty even as both are just about 2 1/2 hours away. People go to Columbus more for shopping and the zoo there is better than the one in Cincinnati. They also have a nice science center there in COSI. Pullman Square here in Huntington is actually run by a group out of Columbus so there's a direct connection there. If people move for a job to one or the other, I've heard of people going to Columbus more. They also travel out of the Columbus airport more often.
Because of the sports teams and Kings Island, there's a pretty close connection to Cincinnati too. In addition, being an Ohio river town as well has also probably linked Huntington and Cincy more historically. That probably also creates a lot of economic connections as goods travel along the River between the two. There are also the riverboat cruises that come from Cincinnati that frequently stop in Huntington. People from here also frequent the aquarium in Covington, KY just across the River from Cincy.
Without any hard numbers and just from my personal knowledge and experience, I'd say it's pretty even.
Given that I-470 is recommended for through traffic in the region, I suppose WVDOT might as well just go ahead and make it official by swapping the I-70 and I-470 designations.
In fact, I'm surprised that those weren't the designations already - unless I-70 was built first through Wheeling, which would make sense.
I think it would be more likely that 470 would become 70, and 70 would become Business 70.
Quote from: KCRoadFan on August 20, 2023, 02:52:18 AM
Given that I-470 is recommended for through traffic in the region, I suppose WVDOT might as well just go ahead and make it official by swapping the I-70 and I-470 designations.
In fact, I'm surprised that those weren't the designations already - unless I-70 was built first through Wheeling, which would make sense.
I-70 was first.
Quote from: The Ghostbuster on August 20, 2023, 08:39:16 AM
I think it would be more likely that 470 would become 70, and 70 would become Business 70.
WV doesn't do business routes. OH very rarely does.
Given that I-70 doesn't meet interstate standards near the tunnel, I wonder if that's why they haven't been swapped. FHWA might demand that it be upgraded or made a non-interstate.
Quote from: Bitmapped on August 20, 2023, 10:28:26 AM
WV doesn't do business routes. OH very rarely does.
NY doesn't either - and yet we're still getting one in Syracuse.
Maybe its not being renumbered because there really isn't much reason to.
Quote from: The Ghostbuster on August 20, 2023, 08:39:16 AM
I think it would be more likely that 470 would become 70, and 70 would become Business 70.
That would be the sensible solution. They built I-470 for a reason - because it was way less destructive and disruptive than expanding the Wheeling Tunnel, twinning the Fort Henry Bridge, and forcing 6-8 lanes of Interstate traffic right through the middle of Wheeling.
Keeping I-70 on the old roadway is all about one thing - keeping the Interstate designation. The instant anyone makes a move to change designations, the current I-70 route loses the grandfathered design exceptions allowing its Interstate status.
Somebody in Wheeling apparently thinks this is important, in a way that a Business route would not be, to maintain as-is. Perhaps it's there to help fund maintenance on the Tunnel and Bridge?
I-70 has the same issue further west in KC. Don't know now if the substandard freeway is an issue being the Lewis and Clark Viaduct is been replaced, but if it was a numbering swap between 70 and 670 could be done there at least.
Quote from: roadman65 on August 21, 2023, 04:48:23 AM
I-70 has the same issue further west in KC. Don't know now if the substandard freeway is an issue being the Lewis and Clark Viaduct is been replaced, but if it was a numbering swap between 70 and 670 could be done there at least.
As a KC resident, I agree with you on swapping 70 and 670 downtown.