Since I found out about this road, and especially since I've driven on it, I've been bothered by this question. Why does the Indian Nation Turnpike exist with its current routing? I can somewhat understand the northern alignment as it is part of the best route between Dallas and Tulsa. But why does the southern part exist? I cannot imagine there is nearly enough Hugo-bound traffic to justify a freeway. Meanwhile, the rest of the route to Dallas is awful and goes through a bunch of small towns. Why didn't the OTA angle the turnpike towards Durant?
As originally planned in 1958, there would have been four-lane turnpikes from McAlester to both Hugo and Durant.
Quote from: kphoger on April 17, 2023, 01:23:57 PM
As originally planned in 1958, there would have been four-lane turnpikes from McAlester to both Hugo and Durant.
Why the routing to Hugo though? I still don't see what travel demand they anticipated; there's a dozen other turnpikes they could build that would be far more useful. And whatever happened to the Durant-bound turnpike?
Quote from: kphoger on April 17, 2023, 01:23:57 PM
As originally planned in 1958, there would have been four-lane turnpikes from McAlester to both Hugo and Durant.
The Durant turnpike would have actually been useful to have... the route to Hugo could easily be a 65 mph two-lane road with passing lanes, or at most a four lane divided highway.
The McAlester to Durant route, on the other hand, is largely non-limited-access and passes through a number of towns, and carries interstate volumes of passenger and truck traffic.
Why did they build the Hugo routing and not Durant? That seems backwards.
Quote from: sprjus4 on April 17, 2023, 03:30:22 PM
Why did they build the Hugo routing and not Durant? That seems backwards.
:popcorn:
Quote from: Ellie on April 17, 2023, 03:25:14 PM
Quote from: kphoger on April 17, 2023, 01:23:57 PM
As originally planned in 1958, there would have been four-lane turnpikes from McAlester to both Hugo and Durant.
Why the routing to Hugo though? I still don't see what travel demand they anticipated; there's a dozen other turnpikes they could build that would be far more useful. And whatever happened to the Durant-bound turnpike?
Quote from: sprjus4 on April 17, 2023, 03:30:22 PM
Why did they build the Hugo routing and not Durant? That seems backwards.
The Tulsa—Hugo turnpike would shave nearly 50 miles off the trip compared to existing routes at the time, while the Tulsa—Durant turnpike would only shave half that distance off compared to existing routes. The Hugo branch was also estimated to be slightly cheaper to build.
But, more importantly, in those pre-I-35 days, Tulsa—Hugo was part of the route to Houston. The endpoint wasn't conceptualized as Hugo, but rather the Texas state line. It served long-distance travelers, not local Oklahoma travelers.
As for what happened to the third phase–the Tulsa—Durant phase–I don't really know. Perhaps someone with more knowledge about Oklahoma turnpike history can speak to why that part never came to fruition.
US Route map, 1950
Tulsa—Houston shown in blue
Gap later filled by Indian Nation Turnpike shown in red
(https://i.imgur.com/xo858t6.png)
Ah, that makes way more sense! Though it does seem like the turnpike was built at around the same time as I-45, so it seems like they should've anticipated the route being made redundant.
I would suspect that if you went digging for who represented Hugo in the Legislature during the time period it was proposed, then looked to see what level of political power that person wielded at the time, you'd probably have an answer. (I believe I've seen the Chickasaw Turnpike attributed to the will of Oklahoma House speaker pro tempore Lonnie Abbott (D-Ada), for instance.)
Quote from: Ellie on April 17, 2023, 05:41:59 PM
Ah, that makes way more sense! Though it does seem like the turnpike was built at around the same time as I-45, so it seems like they should've anticipated the route being made redundant.
The legislative bill that authorized the formation of the OTA was ratified in 1954. That bill was amended the following year to specifically include the corridor that would eventually become the Indian Nation Turnpike. Notably, that amendment
predated the Federal-Aid Highway Act of 1956 by 13 months. That is to say, when plans for the turnpike officially began, the Interstate highway system wasn't even a thing yet: there was nothing for them to anticipate the turnpike being redundant
with, and existing US-75 between Dallas and Houston was mostly just a two-lane highway anyway.
Quote from: Scott5114 on April 17, 2023, 07:59:53 PM
I would suspect that if you went digging for who represented Hugo in the Legislature during the time period it was proposed, then looked to see what level of political power that person wielded at the time, you'd probably have an answer. (I believe I've seen the Chickasaw Turnpike attributed to the will of Oklahoma House speaker pro tempore Lonnie Abbott (D-Ada), for instance.)
I'm more curious to know why the Durant branch was scrapped, not why the Hugo branch wasn't.
The INT makes sense as part of a route from Tulsa to Houston, bypassing Dallas. Would've been great if the Durant Branch was built too though. But what was ultimately built does also seem to provide at least a decent route from Tulsa to Texarkana (and now Shreveport), at least until more of I-49 is completed.
Quote from: Scott5114 on April 17, 2023, 07:59:53 PM
I would suspect that if you went digging for who represented Hugo in the Legislature during the time period it was proposed, then looked to see what level of political power that person wielded at the time, you'd probably have an answer. (I believe I've seen the Chickasaw Turnpike attributed to the will of Oklahoma House speaker pro tempore Lonnie Abbott (D-Ada), for instance.)
Not from Hugo, but it likely was due to Gene Stipe. He ruled southeastern Oklahoma from the 40s until the turn of the century.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gene_Stipe
I have no problem with the Indian Nation Turnpike. Maybe a better question would have been "Why does the Chickasaw Turnpike exist?" After all, that dinky roadway is only a small piece of what was originally to have been a Turnpike connecting Interstate 35 (near Davis) with Interstate 40 (near Henryetta): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chickasaw_Turnpike.
Quote from: The Ghostbuster on April 17, 2023, 10:51:10 PM
I have no problem with the Indian Nation Turnpike. Maybe a better question would have been "Why does the Chickasaw Turnpike exist?" After all, that dinky roadway is only a small piece of what was originally to have been a Turnpike connecting Interstate 35 (near Davis) with Interstate 40 (near Henryetta): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chickasaw_Turnpike.
There's plenty of... questionable... turnpikes in the state. That one, the Cimarron, the Kickapoo, and the Cherokee all come to mind. Not that those roads aren't at all useful, but I cannot imagine any other state building them as turnpikes instead of as free roads. Usually states only build the most important routes as turnpikes (e.g. the Kansas Turnpike, Ohio Turnpike, etc) or have turnpikes as efficient freeway routes in urban areas (e.g. Texas, California, Florida) but Oklahoma has plenty of turnpikes that are neither particularly important for long-distance travel or urban.
Kentucky's parkway system is seemingly similar to the Oklahoma concept of having long distance turnpikes serving low-volume routes. None of these roads are tolled anymore, however, they operate as free 70 mph freeway facilities.
The Cimarron Turnpike is an important connection between Tulsa and the northwest (via I-35 / I-135 / I-70), and the Cherokee Turnpike connects Tulsa to Fayetteville / Bentonville (NW Arkansas metro), and both are apart of a future interstate corridor that will link I-35 and I-49 via Tulsa.
I'm not sure the full rationale behind the Kickapoo... it's relatively new and seems to be the first piece of an I-35 / I-44 bypass of Oklahoma City for long-haul traffic.
Quote from: Ellie on April 17, 2023, 10:59:20 PM
Usually states only build the most important routes as turnpikes (e.g. the Kansas Turnpike, Ohio Turnpike, etc) or have turnpikes as efficient freeway routes in urban areas (e.g. Texas, California, Florida) but Oklahoma has plenty of turnpikes that are neither particularly important for long-distance travel or urban.
Oklahoma DOT is perpetually cash-strapped due to Oklahoma's low tax rates, and is further restricted by state laws prohibiting them from issuing bonds to cover the expense of large projects. This means that ODOT will often kick the can down the road on a project for a decade or more. When it actually does end up starting a project, it will split it up into many phases, waiting until the trickle of money emanating from the Legislature adds up to enough to get the next started. It usually ends up taking a decade or so to get a single stack interchange done, as each ramp is often its own phase.
If there's something that (someone in power thinks) is a semi-urgent need, the easiest way to make sure it actually gets done is to have OTA pick up the bill, because they can actually issue bonds and pay them off with toll money collected from already-built turnpikes.
Quote from: sprjus4 on April 17, 2023, 11:45:08 PM
The Cimarron Turnpike is an important connection between Tulsa and the northwest (via I-35 / I-135 / I-70), and the Cherokee Turnpike connects Tulsa to Fayetteville / Bentonville (NW Arkansas metro), and both are apart of a future interstate corridor that will link I-35 and I-49 via Tulsa.
The Cherokee makes sense now, but not really when it was built. I guess I can see the use of the Cimarron but I would've angled it further north, since the only big city out that way is Wichita.
Quote from: Ellie on April 18, 2023, 09:52:54 AM
Quote from: sprjus4 on April 17, 2023, 11:45:08 PM
The Cimarron Turnpike is an important connection between Tulsa and the northwest (via I-35 / I-135 / I-70), and the Cherokee Turnpike connects Tulsa to Fayetteville / Bentonville (NW Arkansas metro), and both are apart of a future interstate corridor that will link I-35 and I-49 via Tulsa.
The Cherokee makes sense now, but not really when it was built. I guess I can see the use of the Cimarron but I would've angled it further north, since the only big city out that way is Wichita.
It made perfect sense when it was built. OK33 was the main road from Tulsa to Fayetteville. I should see if Bugo has an old "I Drove 33 And Survived" bumper sticker. I was at the University of Tulsa in the late 70's and it was a slog to drive to Fayetteville. Narrow 2 lane roads with blind hairpin curves and no shoulders. Many terrible fatality accidents between Catoosa and Siloam Springs. As Scott mentioned upthread, ODOT didn't have the $$$ to fix that so OTA stepped up. Even back then, it was recognized that NWA was going to grow explosively.
Quote from: kphoger on April 17, 2023, 04:51:20 PM
US Route map, 1950
Tulsa—Houston shown in blue
Gap later filled by Indian Nation Turnpike shown in red
(https://i.imgur.com/xo858t6.png)
And to see how Tyler area growed over the year which pushed for the construction of Loop-49, we might see some push for upgrades of US-69, TX-19 and US-271 to the Oklahoma border for a more efficient Tulsa-Tyler corridor.
I was always under the impression that the OK turnpike system had these very "Kentucky-like" routings because they not only hoped to facilitate existing through travel, but also to link formerly isolated areas with larger cities. Areas in the mountains where Jed Clampett probably came from, for example. Now, it's a not-too-long ride from there to Tulsa via McAlester. Or OKC if you prefer.
In this way it is very much like Kentucky's system, which put in the Mountain and Cumberland parkways to provide a link from Hatfield/McCoy country to cities in the rest of the state.
My parents lived in Tulsa when the Cimmaron was in development. In fact my parents saw the town of Keyesport (and some others) before they were forced to relocate for the lake.
My father said the Cimmaron was really for Oklahoma State University. The upgrade of the rest of the route to Enid came later to support Vance AFB.
As for the Hugo-Durant question, my armchair thought is that at the time Houston was a major port at the time and it made sense to increase capacity. Also I would look at when the Arkansas-Verdigris waterway was built for the Port of Tulsa and Catoosa.
As for Durant, and the traffic pushing north from Dallas, I assume that NAFTA and increased Mexican trade has caused traffic to increase to KCMO. Something not anticipated in 1954.
I found this interesting history of TX-19 that a Paris - Houston highway was planned in 1917, among the original twenty-five for the state. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Texas_State_Highway_19
US 271 widening to four lanes between Paris (Loop 286) and Bogata (SR-37) is planned to commence in 2025. That should increase the attractiveness of the INT for travellers from the southeast. https://www.txdot.gov/projects/hearings-meetings/paris/us-271-loop-286.html.html
Wouldn't SH-19 / SH-154 or US-82 be better candidates, particularly for connecting to the more medium sized cities to the southeast?
Quote from: sprjus4 on April 19, 2023, 11:15:09 AM
Wouldn't SH-19 / SH-154 or US-82 be better candidates, particularly for connecting to the more medium sized cities to the southeast?
AADT 9003 = US-82 west of Toco
AADT 7406 = US-82 east of Blosson
AADT 4438 = TX-19/154 at Delta—Hopkins county line
AADT 5620 = US-271 southeast of FM-410
US 82 west of Paris has or has planned widening to four lane divided. Maybe US 82 east of Paris will follow suit once this study is completed: https://www.txdot.gov/projects/projects-studies/statewide/us82-corridor-study.html
East of Blossom the traffic counts on US 82 drop off too but if it were 4 lanes, it would have potential to pick up traffic volume to funnel to the INT.
Quote from: edwaleni on April 18, 2023, 07:11:35 PM
My parents lived in Tulsa when the Cimmaron was in development. In fact my parents saw the town of Keyesport (and some others) before they were forced to relocate for the lake.
My father said the Cimmaron was really for Oklahoma State University. The upgrade of the rest of the route to Enid came later to support Vance AFB.
As for the Hugo-Durant question, my armchair thought is that at the time Houston was a major port at the time and it made sense to increase capacity. Also I would look at when the Arkansas-Verdigris waterway was built for the Port of Tulsa and Catoosa.
As for Durant, and the traffic pushing north from Dallas, I assume that NAFTA and increased Mexican trade has caused traffic to increase to KCMO. Something not anticipated in 1954.
The McClellan—Kerr Arkansas River Navigation System opened for barge traffic in 1971. 17 years after the Hugo route was put together.
Quote from: edwaleni on April 19, 2023, 03:41:06 PM
Quote from: edwaleni on April 18, 2023, 07:11:35 PM
My parents lived in Tulsa when the Cimmaron was in development. In fact my parents saw the town of Keyesport (and some others) before they were forced to relocate for the lake.
My father said the Cimmaron was really for Oklahoma State University. The upgrade of the rest of the route to Enid came later to support Vance AFB.
As for the Hugo-Durant question, my armchair thought is that at the time Houston was a major port at the time and it made sense to increase capacity. Also I would look at when the Arkansas-Verdigris waterway was built for the Port of Tulsa and Catoosa.
As for Durant, and the traffic pushing north from Dallas, I assume that NAFTA and increased Mexican trade has caused traffic to increase to KCMO. Something not anticipated in 1954.
The McClellan—Kerr Arkansas River Navigation System opened for barge traffic in 1971. 17 years after the Hugo route was put together.
It was chiefly done as a quid pro quo for approval of other turnpikes. As mentioned upthread, Gene Stipe was heavily involved and he controlled enough votes to kill it otherwise.
There have been various efforts over the years to ensure all parts of the state were connected by a turnpike. Woodward-OKC, Altus-Elk City, etc. Most ended up as 4 lane highways (OK6, US 270). the Indian Nation ended up as a turnpike because the Little Dixie crowd didn't want to wait 40 years.
This 1970 map shows a planned freeway from Hugo to Paris. This was never built, but apparently an extension of the Indian Nation Turnpike into Texas was planned at some time?
(https://i.imgur.com/ZBV9E1u.jpg)
Source of map, DFW Freeways: http://dallasfreeways.com/dfwfreeways/old-highway-maps/1970_arco_ne_texas_med.jpg
If this freeway or tollway extension had been built, they probably wouldn't have needed to expand US 271 to four lanes between Hugo, OK and Paris, TX.
Quote from: The Ghostbuster on July 11, 2023, 08:36:43 PM
If this freeway or tollway extension had been built, they probably wouldn't have needed to expand US 271 to four lanes between Hugo, OK and Paris, TX.
It is the path of the current 4 lanes, just not as a freeway. There isn't enough traffic to justify one.
Quote from: Ellie on April 17, 2023, 10:59:20 PM
There's plenty of... questionable... turnpikes in the state. That one, the Cimarron, the Kickapoo, and the Cherokee all come to mind. Not that those roads aren't at all useful, but I cannot imagine any other state building them as turnpikes instead of as free roads. Usually states only build the most important routes as turnpikes (e.g. the Kansas Turnpike, Ohio Turnpike, etc) or have turnpikes as efficient freeway routes in urban areas (e.g. Texas, California, Florida) but Oklahoma has plenty of turnpikes that are neither particularly important for long-distance travel or urban.
The Cimarron and Cherokee Turnpikes are "questionable"? They're part of a major highway that is slated to become an Interstate in the next few years. And old OK 33 between Locust Grove and Flint was an absolute death trap. That road should have been 4 lanes 30 years before the turnpike was built. How to say you've never driven old OK 33 without saying you've never driven old OK 33.
Quote from: rte66man on April 18, 2023, 11:24:07 AM
I should see if Bugo has an old "I Drove 33 And Survived" bumper sticker.
I found it on a website years ago, and I don't have the bumper sticker itself, just this image. I have thought about printing it out and making a bumper sticker out of it. I remember back in the 1970s seeing bumper stickers that said something like "Pray for me, I drive US 71". The stickers disappeared, but US 71 still hasn't been bypassed between Ft Smith and Texarkana.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/4852/46024967042_46e15ed2a6_m.jpg)
Quote from: edwaleni on April 18, 2023, 07:11:35 PM
My parents lived in Tulsa when the Cimmaron was in development. In fact my parents saw the town of Keyesport (and some others) before they were forced to relocate for the lake.
Where is Keyesport? Do you mean Keystone or Appalachia, both which were inundated by the waters of Keystone Lake. Mannford was also flooded.
As to the comment on "questionable turnpikes", the only questionable turnpike I find in Oklahoma is the Chickasaw Turnpike, since most of it was never constructed.