The "Ship of Theseus (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ship_of_Theseus)" is a notional ship that has had all of its parts replaced. Does this make it a different ship?
There are some highways that are like this:
* for each revision, some part of the highway was unchanged (that is, never relocated entirely at once)
* the highway was never renumbered or redesignated entirely
* but the current highway has no alignment in common with the original
In Connecticut, you have CT 27: originally from CT 84(184) to CT 12 in Preston; then extended south to Mystic; then it shed the original part. Today's short route is disconnected from the original route.
CT 15 is another example: though most of it was moved from today's CT 17 to the Merritt/Wilbur Cross/Berlin Turnpike/Charter Oak Bridge alignment, the portion from East Hartford to Union stayed CT 15 (though it was being upgraded). But now, old and new 15 no longer overlap.
There may be a few more, but CT 72 is another prominent example. Originally, it followed CT 3 and CT 372 from Middletown to CT 10 in Plainville. None of that is part of CT 72 now.
CT 9 just misses this IMHO. There's a segment between Middletown and Cromwell where today's freeway replaced the 1932 alignment.
There are probably many examples where a freeway completely replaced a surface route (9 comes closest here) that are not as interesting. But there may be some examples in your neck of the woods.
US-460 in West Virginia comes to mind. Corridor Q follows the original US-219 (later US-219 and US-460, until US-219 was truncated) in only a few short sections:
- west of Glen Lyn: about 2,000 feet or so between the west end of Ball Avenue to the east end of Old Kellysville Road
- west of Kellysville: about 250 feet (or less) between the west end of Goodwins Chapel Road and the east end of Fountain Park Road
- east of Bluefield: about 1,250 feet between the south end of Mercer Mall Road and the north end of Old Princeton Road
None of the original route remains, as the entirety of Corridor Q was reconstructed as a multilane divided partially limited access highway.
CA 41 has that kind of vibe. Almost the entire highway north of CA 46 has gradually be realigned and replaced since 1934. The portion south of CA 46 largely was a Renumbering assignment for what was pre-1964 US 466. CA 41 originally ended in Cambria which became the western part of CA 46.
There are at least a couple US routes that fit in this category:
US 601
1926: originally an intra-state route between Florence and Cheraw SC.
1932: extended north from Cheraw to Mt. Airy NC.
1935: truncated at Salisbury NC, becoming intra-state once again, but this time in NC instead of SC.
1951: re-extended into SC, but not along any of its former route.
US 290
1926: originally between San Antonio and far west TX.
1935: segment between San Antonio and Segovia eliminated, extended to Houston instead.
1992: last original segment (between Segovia and west TX) decommissioned.
US 191 (see post #13)
VA 28 uses none of its original 1918 route.
SC 6 also qualifies, originally running from Orangeburg to Charleston via Walterboro.
I have nothing to add from a road perspective, but I just realized both of my road bicycles almost qualify as Ships of Theseus, since beyond frame and fork being "the bicycle", the seatpost and handlebars are the only original equipment to both.
Kudos to anyone with a car or truck that qualifies here.
Minnesota TH 45. Originally it was a short connecting road through Cloquet between US 61 and TH 33. In the late 1960s US 61 was rerouted onto I-35 in this area, so 45 was extended southward along former 61 to where that route formerly made a 90-degree turn in Carlton at the modern TH 45/TH 210 intersection as the new I-35 did not satisfy the state's Constitutional Route 1 designation required to pass through Carlton. This setup existed for about 25 years before the "original" MN 45 north of I-35 through Cloquet was turned back in the mid-1990s, so the remaining 2 miles of connecting route between I-35 and TH 210 in Carlton is not part of the original route.
Quote from: SectorZ on April 30, 2023, 05:55:31 PM
I have nothing to add from a road perspective, but I just realized both of my road bicycles almost qualify as Ships of Theseus, since beyond frame and fork being "the bicycle", the seatpost and handlebars are the only original equipment to both.
Kudos to anyone with a car or truck that qualifies here.
My 2014 Chevy Sonic kind of had that element to it. I was hit by several drivers over the course of ownership. At the end when I sold it the only original panels were three doors and the roof.
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on April 30, 2023, 06:58:43 PM
Quote from: SectorZ on April 30, 2023, 05:55:31 PM
I have nothing to add from a road perspective, but I just realized both of my road bicycles almost qualify as Ships of Theseus, since beyond frame and fork being "the bicycle", the seatpost and handlebars are the only original equipment to both.
Kudos to anyone with a car or truck that qualifies here.
My 2014 Chevy Sonic kind of had that element to it. I was hit by several drivers over the course of ownership. At the end when I sold it the only original panels were three doors and the roof.
When I worked in auto insurance, an appraiser once used the term for a car with loads of pre-existing damage, "the car has hit everything but the lottery". I've never forgotten that term.
Quote from: SectorZ on April 30, 2023, 05:55:31 PM
I have nothing to add from a road perspective, but I just realized both of my road bicycles almost qualify as Ships of Theseus, since beyond frame and fork being "the bicycle", the seatpost and handlebars are the only original equipment to both.
Kudos to anyone with a car or truck that qualifies here.
I wonder at what point the original VIN would become invalid - or at least problematic. I'm genuinely interested if there is an answer, even though I'm nowhere near ever having a "Vehicle of Theseus".
Had NY 47 not been decommissioned, it would have become this. It originally followed what is now reference route 940L, NY 204 on Brooks Ave, Genesee Park Boulevard, Elmwood Ave, and Winton Road north to what was then US 104. It was realigned onto what is now NY 390, I-390, I-590, NY 590, and Sea Breeze Drive as they opened. When NY 47 was decommissioned, it followed NY 390 (only open to NY 104 at that point), I-390, a short overlap with NY 383, Elmwood Ave, I-590, NY 590, and Sea Breeze Drive (although the original alignment to Culver Road is now a parking lot, having been realigned close to 15 years ago). Had it still existed when I-590 and I-390 were completed between NY 383 and Winton Road, it would have likely been realigned there, leaving its original alignment entirely.
US 191 is basically like this. Originally it ran from US 91 in Idaho Falls, ID to the west entrance of Yellowstone Park. Then the north end was pulled back from Yellowstone Park to Bozeman, then Malta, MT. Eventually, the south end returned to the west entrance of Yellowstone, and in 1981 extended from the south entrance of Yellowstone to AZ.
I've wondered about this same thing before, but never thought of the Ship of Theseus connection... that's a perfect name for these routes.
NY 18 qualifies. It was originally signed between the Pennsylvania border and downtown Buffalo. In 1930, it was extended through Niagara Falls and then east to Rochester. In 1962, everything south of Niagara Falls was dropped (since most of it overlapped US routes), including the entire original Pennsylvania-Buffalo route.
I think MA 128 also fits the bill. According to Wikipedia, the original route was from Milton to Salem via a huge number of local streets. (driving this end-to-end would be pure torture today!) It was rerouted onto its "Circumferential Highway" alignment in pieces as the freeway was constructed. The only thing I'm not sure about is the northeastern-most bit of the highway, which is barely a freeway... Wikipedia is not clear on when the highway was extended out to Gloucester, but as long as the original route truly ended in Salem, then none of its original route is part of the current route.
California examples:
Route 24, now just a commuter route between Oakland and Walnut Creek. The numbering made a lot more sense in 1934 when it covered what is now Route 70 and Route 160!
Is any of the current Route 44 related to the original 1934 Route 44 that became US 299?
Route 37 almost fits this, except that a small portion of its 1934-era routing (US 101 to Sears Point) is still part of the route. The original corridor beyond Sears Point is now Route 121 (presumably, the odd number for 37 comes from this), while the rest of the current route to Vallejo is former state Route 48.
In a sense similar to the example of Route 41 brought up above, Route 118 qualifies for this (since what is now Route 232 was the original 118 in the 1940s if I am not mistaken, and much of the modern 118 is of a different alignment from its 1934-1970s surface street route).
Route 60 barely doesn't qualify for this concept as the eastern portions were definitely US 60, but the portion west of Riverside used surface streets and the San Bernardino Freeway rather than the Pomona Freeway which through at least one anecdotal source (Steve Riner in comments on the Freeways of Los Angeles facebook page) was planned to be US 60 originally.
VA 168 was originally entirely on the north side of Hampton Roads.
US 311 in Virginia now is well east of where it was when it was dropped for US 220 in the 1930s.
Quote from: dantheman on April 30, 2023, 10:34:18 PM
NY 18 qualifies. It was originally signed between the Pennsylvania border and downtown Buffalo. In 1930, it was extended through Niagara Falls and then east to Rochester. In 1962, everything south of Niagara Falls was dropped (since most of it overlapped US routes), including the entire original Pennsylvania-Buffalo route.
That explains why NY 18 is east-west despite even 2dny numbers typically being north-south.
Two more from NY:
NY 72 originally ran on today's NY 11B from Potsdam to Hopkinton, then southeast on today's NY 458 to NY 30. Current NY 72 started out life as NY 72A. NY 72 was later rerouted onto NY 72A (its current alignment) to avoid a long overlap with NY 11B, and then the eastern half was renumbered as NY 458. Original NY 72 and modern NY 72 do meet at the 72/11B intersection in Hopkinton, but they don't share any of the same roads.
NY 73 originally was today's NY 74, from US 9 to the ferry at the Vermont border. It was later extended north and west to its current route to replace NY 86A (with an overlap on US 9). Then, the US 9 overlap was eliminated and the eastern section was changed to NY 74, eliminating all of the original route from NY 73.
CO 2 should qualify. It originally followed US 40 from the Utah border to downtown Denver where it followed Brighton Blvd and Vasquez/US 85 to Greeley, then US 34 to Brush and US 6/US 138 up to the Nebraska border. It was later routed on US 40/Colfax to Colorado Blvd where it went north to Vasquez and onwards. As it duplicated US 40, it was truncated and extended south on Colorado Blvd to US 285. On the eastern end, it was truncated to I-76 near Brighton, extended to Bridge Street in Brighton, and finally truncated again so it only goes north-south from US6/85/Vasquez to US 285/Hampden.
Three that I know about in Iowa:
1. IA 160- Originally, it was a diagonal connecting US 69 to what is now the N-S segment of IA 415. It followed what is today SW Ankeny Rd. Today, it is Oralabor Rd. In Ankeny.
2. IA 330- Originally the route US 30 took to get from the SW corner of Marshalltown to downtown Marshalltown, it is now the diagonal road one takes to get to Marshalltown from Des Moines and then serves as Marshalltown's bypass, by way of Albion, if you are continuing on to Waterloo.
3. IA 333- It was originally a spur from US 59 to Northboro. It's now a connector between US 275 and I-29 in Hamburg. For a large chunk of its history, it went between US 275 and US 71 a mile north of the Missouri border.
UPDATE: IA 57 is a fourth. Originally it went from Cedar Falls to Grundy Center. It now goes between Cedar Falls and US 65 near Iowa Falls. At one point, IA 57 went east from Cedar Falls into Waterloo, so it probably seemed natural to have it take over the old US 20 route when the US 20 freeway was built.
West Virginia has a couple more of them:
US-35 (actually been relocated twice, but the first time was swapping "one ship" for another, hence not a "Ship of Theseus").
US-22 (too short to deserve mentioning, but still qualifies)
none of I-41 north of the Milwaukee-Racine county line in Wisconsin is on the original routing that US 41 took over from the original WI 15 back in the 920s.
Mike
US 23 in Michigan is at least 80% changed from its original routing, maybe 90% or more.
Certainly the southern half, which is now freeway. But the "shoreline" routings along Lake Huron are newer - it originally was mostly inland, stair-stepping out to hit cities like Alpena.
NJ 24 falls int this. None of todays Route is the original due to it being relocated to the freeway it is now, and being truncated to it.
Would US 12 in Michigan (mostly running on what was formerly US 112) fit this category?
Quote from: mgk920 on May 17, 2023, 12:16:34 PM
none of I-41 north of the Milwaukee-Racine county line in Wisconsin is on the original routing that US 41 took over from the original WI 15 back in the 920s.
Mike
I think the freeway / expressway section between Suamico and Abrams is built on the original alignment. I am also pretty sure that the routing in Marinette is at least partially on the original.
US 22 east of Paxtonia, PA to the Delaware River falls into this. None of existing US 22, not only concurrent with I-78, but the arterial part west of I-78 to Paxtonia and of course the Lehigh Valley Thruway part are not original.
Inspired by this thread, I've put together a
blog post (https://www.usends.com/blog/shape-shifting-us-routes) about the US routes that fall into this category: only three that I'm aware of (see post #4). US 141 comes really close but gets disqualified due to a short segment in the Green Bay Area. (That post also discusses US routes that are in sort of the opposite situation: two different US routes that not only shared the same numerical designation, they also shared the same alignment along some stretch. Only three of those as well.)
Quote from: TheStranger on May 17, 2023, 02:40:06 PM
Would US 12 in Michigan (mostly running on what was formerly US 112) fit this category?
Even if you're isolating only the Michigan section of US 12, it would still barely get disqualified, because the segment from New Buffalo to the Indiana line has always carried US 12 (both before and after the reroute along former 112).
Quote from: Takumi on May 01, 2023, 01:42:40 PM
US 311 in Virginia now is well east of where it was when it was dropped for US 220 in the 1930s.
True, except the short segment between Winston-Salem and Madison has always carried US 311.
A couple examples in Utah...
SR 111 - originally ran east-west along 123rd/126th South in Salt Lake County between SR 68 and 71. However, after a series of extensions and truncations, that original segment is now an extension of SR 71, while 111 has become a north-south highway at the far west end of the valley, connecting SR 201 to SR 209 (which is still consistently mislabeled 48 on maps).
SR 224 - was originally a spur from Midway to a hot spring (essentially today's SR 222), but got extended north through Park City to I-80. Then the portion over Empire Pass in Wasatch County was returned to county jurisdiction and there were two separate segments of 224 for several years, until the original southern segment was renumbered to 222.
Quote from: usends on May 18, 2023, 06:36:08 PM
Inspired by this thread, I've put together a blog post (https://www.usends.com/blog/shape-shifting-us-routes) about the US routes that fall into this category: only three that I'm aware of (see post #4). US 141 comes really close but gets disqualified due to a short segment in the Green Bay Area. (That post also discusses US routes that are in sort of the opposite situation: two different US routes that not only shared the same numerical designation, they also shared the same alignment along some stretch. Only three of those as well.)
This is wonderful stuff. Thank you. I drive on that sole remaining section of the original US-141 nearly every day, yet forgot about that when it came to this topic!
Quote from: usends on May 18, 2023, 06:36:08 PM
Inspired by this thread, I've put together a blog post (https://www.usends.com/blog/shape-shifting-us-routes) about the US routes that fall into this category: only three that I'm aware of (see post #4). US 141 comes really close but gets disqualified due to a short segment in the Green Bay Area. (That post also discusses US routes that are in sort of the opposite situation: two different US routes that not only shared the same numerical designation, they also shared the same alignment along some stretch. Only three of those as well.)
I highly recommend checking the link above. Maps and an animation illustrate the concept very clearly.
Here in Appleton, WI, WI 125 originally took over a previous state highway route on Prospect Ave between Memorial Dr (WI 47/then US 10) and what is now I-41. In the 1950s(?), it was moved in its entirety to its current routing (College Ave) when the street was extended westward on a new ROW to then US 41.
Mike
Quote from: kurumi on April 30, 2023, 02:27:26 PM
The "Ship of Theseus (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ship_of_Theseus)" is a notional ship that has had all of its parts replaced. Does this make it a different ship?
There are some highways that are like this:
* for each revision, some part of the highway was unchanged (that is, never relocated entirely at once)
* the highway was never renumbered or redesignated entirely
* but the current highway has no alignment in common with the original
In Connecticut, you have CT 27: originally from CT 84(184) to CT 12 in Preston; then extended south to Mystic; then it shed the original part. Today's short route is disconnected from the original route.
CT 15 is another example: though most of it was moved from today's CT 17 to the Merritt/Wilbur Cross/Berlin Turnpike/Charter Oak Bridge alignment, the portion from East Hartford to Union stayed CT 15 (though it was being upgraded). But now, old and new 15 no longer overlap.
There may be a few more, but CT 72 is another prominent example. Originally, it followed CT 3 and CT 372 from Middletown to CT 10 in Plainville. None of that is part of CT 72 now.
CT 9 just misses this IMHO. There's a segment between Middletown and Cromwell where today's freeway replaced the 1932 alignment.
There are probably many examples where a freeway completely replaced a surface route (9 comes closest here) that are not as interesting. But there may be some examples in your neck of the woods.
Hey, it's Kurumi! Are we coming up on the silver anniversary of Signmaker?
Back to topic: the only highway I could identify in California where the entirety of the historical routing meets the criteria for this is CA-134, which used to start at US 101 (Ventura Blvd) in The Valley, run east along Moorpark St, Riverside Drive, Alameda Ave, San Fernando Rd (and later Golden State Highway), Colorado St, the Colorado Freeway, and Colorado Blvd to US 66 in Pasadena, none of which the route is currently routed along . . . EXCEPT that a portion of the east end of the current 134 freeway between Figueroa and San Rafael is paved over the old Colorado Freeway, so it's not quite a perfect fit.
(https://i.imgur.com/mToCyCE.jpg)
Turns out CA 71 is a Highway of Theseus route. None of the original 1934 alignment is presently part of the highway.
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on July 04, 2023, 03:21:38 PM
Turns out CA 71 is a Highway of Theseus route. None of the original 1934 alignment is presently part of the highway.
Looking at your post earlier from Gribblenation, would this be the correct 1934-1936 layout from the north terminus to the San Diego County line:
Garey Avenue south from what was then US 66 south through Pomona to Riverside Drive/current Chino Valley Freeway
An alignment subsumed by the Chino Valley Freeway southeast to Pipeline Avenue
Pipeline Avenue south to today's Route 142
Chino Hills Parkway east to Central Avenue
Central Avenue south to El Prado Road
El Prado Road southeast to Pine Avenue
Pine Avenue slight northeast to Route 83
Route 83 south to Pomona Rincon Road
Pomona Rincon Road (including section removed by Prado Dam construction) south to Auto Center Drive
Auto Center Drive to Pomona Road
Pomona Road to a non-existant crossing towards Yorba Street
Yorba Street to 6th Street in Corona (former US 91)
6th Street east to Main Street
Main Street south to Ontario Avenue
Ontario Avenue southeast to Temescal Canyon Road
Temescal Canyon Road southeast to Lake Street
Lake Street south to Lakeshore Drive
Lakeshore Drive southeast to Mission Trail
Mission Trail to Palomar Street
Palmoar Street south towards Washington Street in Wildomar
Washington Street to Ivy Street, then southbound again at Jefferson
Jefferson Avenue south to Old Town Front Street in Temecula
Front Street to Route 79
Route 79 to Rainbow Valley Road south
Quote from: TheStranger on July 04, 2023, 03:52:20 PM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on July 04, 2023, 03:21:38 PM
Turns out CA 71 is a Highway of Theseus route. None of the original 1934 alignment is presently part of the highway.
Looking at your post earlier from Gribblenation, would this be the correct 1934-1936 layout from the north terminus to the San Diego County line:
Garey Avenue south from what was then US 66 south through Pomona to Riverside Drive/current Chino Valley Freeway
An alignment subsumed by the Chino Valley Freeway southeast to Pipeline Avenue
Pipeline Avenue south to today's Route 142
Chino Hills Parkway east to Central Avenue
Central Avenue south to El Prado Road
El Prado Road southeast to Pine Avenue
Pine Avenue slight northeast to Route 83
Route 83 south to Pomona Rincon Road
Pomona Rincon Road (including section removed by Prado Dam construction) south to Auto Center Drive
Auto Center Drive to Pomona Road
Pomona Road to a non-existant crossing towards Yorba Street
Yorba Street to 6th Street in Corona (former US 91)
6th Street east to Main Street
Main Street south to Ontario Avenue
Ontario Avenue southeast to Temescal Canyon Road
Temescal Canyon Road southeast to Lake Street
Lake Street south to Lakeshore Drive
Lakeshore Drive southeast to Mission Trail
Mission Trail to Palomar Street
Palmoar Street south towards Washington Street in Wildomar
Washington Street to Ivy Street, then southbound again at Jefferson
Jefferson Avenue south to Old Town Front Street in Temecula
Front Street to Route 79
Route 79 to Rainbow Valley Road south
Worth noting, it isn't really clear where CA 71 ended after US 395 was extended into California. There isn't much evidence to suggest it was routed south of Elsinore until around 1940 when it was extended past Temecula.
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on July 04, 2023, 04:45:32 PM
Quote from: TheStranger on July 04, 2023, 03:52:20 PM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on July 04, 2023, 03:21:38 PM
Turns out CA 71 is a Highway of Theseus route. None of the original 1934 alignment is presently part of the highway.
Looking at your post earlier from Gribblenation, would this be the correct 1934-1936 layout from the north terminus to the San Diego County line:
Garey Avenue south from what was then US 66 south through Pomona to Riverside Drive/current Chino Valley Freeway
An alignment subsumed by the Chino Valley Freeway southeast to Pipeline Avenue
Pipeline Avenue south to today's Route 142
Chino Hills Parkway east to Central Avenue
Central Avenue south to El Prado Road
El Prado Road southeast to Pine Avenue
Pine Avenue slight northeast to Route 83
Route 83 south to Pomona Rincon Road
Pomona Rincon Road (including section removed by Prado Dam construction) south to Auto Center Drive
Auto Center Drive to Pomona Road
Pomona Road to a non-existant crossing towards Yorba Street
Yorba Street to 6th Street in Corona (former US 91)
6th Street east to Main Street
Main Street south to Ontario Avenue
Ontario Avenue southeast to Temescal Canyon Road
Temescal Canyon Road southeast to Lake Street
Lake Street south to Lakeshore Drive
Lakeshore Drive southeast to Mission Trail
Mission Trail to Palomar Street
Palmoar Street south towards Washington Street in Wildomar
Washington Street to Ivy Street, then southbound again at Jefferson
Jefferson Avenue south to Old Town Front Street in Temecula
Front Street to Route 79
Route 79 to Rainbow Valley Road south
Worth noting, it isn't really clear where CA 71 ended after US 395 was extended into California. There isn't much evidence to suggest it was routed south of Elsinore until around 1940 when it was extended past Temecula.
The 1940 California State Highway map (on David Rumsey's site) does show the routing east along today's 79 and 371.
1938 shows 71 ending at Elsinore, and today's 371 as an unpaved road:
https://www.davidrumsey.com/luna/servlet/detail/RUMSEY~8~1~239588~5511892:Road-Map-of-the-State-of-California
(It also shows 83 along what later became 79, not sure if this was ever signed in the field)
Quote from: TheStranger on July 04, 2023, 04:50:29 PM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on July 04, 2023, 04:45:32 PM
Quote from: TheStranger on July 04, 2023, 03:52:20 PM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on July 04, 2023, 03:21:38 PM
Turns out CA 71 is a Highway of Theseus route. None of the original 1934 alignment is presently part of the highway.
Looking at your post earlier from Gribblenation, would this be the correct 1934-1936 layout from the north terminus to the San Diego County line:
Garey Avenue south from what was then US 66 south through Pomona to Riverside Drive/current Chino Valley Freeway
An alignment subsumed by the Chino Valley Freeway southeast to Pipeline Avenue
Pipeline Avenue south to today's Route 142
Chino Hills Parkway east to Central Avenue
Central Avenue south to El Prado Road
El Prado Road southeast to Pine Avenue
Pine Avenue slight northeast to Route 83
Route 83 south to Pomona Rincon Road
Pomona Rincon Road (including section removed by Prado Dam construction) south to Auto Center Drive
Auto Center Drive to Pomona Road
Pomona Road to a non-existant crossing towards Yorba Street
Yorba Street to 6th Street in Corona (former US 91)
6th Street east to Main Street
Main Street south to Ontario Avenue
Ontario Avenue southeast to Temescal Canyon Road
Temescal Canyon Road southeast to Lake Street
Lake Street south to Lakeshore Drive
Lakeshore Drive southeast to Mission Trail
Mission Trail to Palomar Street
Palmoar Street south towards Washington Street in Wildomar
Washington Street to Ivy Street, then southbound again at Jefferson
Jefferson Avenue south to Old Town Front Street in Temecula
Front Street to Route 79
Route 79 to Rainbow Valley Road south
Worth noting, it isn't really clear where CA 71 ended after US 395 was extended into California. There isn't much evidence to suggest it was routed south of Elsinore until around 1940 when it was extended past Temecula.
The 1940 California State Highway map (on David Rumsey's site) does show the routing east along today's 79 and 371.
1938 shows 71 ending at Elsinore, and today's 371 as an unpaved road:
https://www.davidrumsey.com/luna/servlet/detail/RUMSEY~8~1~239588~5511892:Road-Map-of-the-State-of-California
(It also shows 83 along what later became 79, not sure if this was ever signed in the field)
CA 83 definitely was signed, one of the shields popped up on eBay a couple years ago. Daniel captured an image of the eBay posting on his page:
(https://www.cahighways.org/maps/079-083-seg3.jpg)
Regarding 71 between Elsinore and Temecula, it isn't really clear what was going with field signage prior to 1940. I just finished a blog on the highway and found no reference to signage status prior to 1940.
Quote from: SEWIGuy on May 17, 2023, 03:51:12 PM
Quote from: mgk920 on May 17, 2023, 12:16:34 PM
none of I-41 north of the Milwaukee-Racine county line in Wisconsin is on the original routing that US 41 took over from the original WI 15 back in the 920s.
Mike
I think the freeway / expressway section between Suamico and Abrams is built on the original alignment. I am also pretty sure that the routing in Marinette is at least partially on the original.
Sorry for taking so long to respond, the original WI 15 followed a routing that was well east of the current US 41 in that area. Yes, I agree that at least part of US 41 in Marinette, WI is likely on its original routing, but don't quote me on that as there are local roads in the area that area that are called 'OLD 15 Rd' and still have their nearly century-old concrete pavement as their driving surfaces. It is all nowhere near I-41 though.
Mike
Washington's SR 121 is certainly a candidate. The original alignment in 1967 and the current (post-1991) alignment only share one thing in common: terminating on either side of an interchange with I-5.
(https://i.imgur.com/YFdNyNi.png)
Old alignment in orange, current in pink
I overlooked CT 217 (https://www.kurumi.com/roads/ct/ct217.html).
Originally existed south of CT 66; now exists only north of it. (For a few years, it was both.)
I-90 through Chicago certainly is one. On the South Side, it ran on the then-Calumet Expressway to the Kingery-Borman combo eastward to IN, and west of the Loop, it ran on what is now I-290 while I-94 ran alone through the North Side. The Skyway was originally signed as I-94, before it and the Calumet switched designations.
I believe the following would count:
(WA) SR-526 - formerly part of SSH 1-I, was routed over 5th St, Mukilteo Blvd, and SW 41st St. from Mukilteo to Everett, to end at US 99. In the early 60s it was part of the highway re-numbering, and given the designation of SR-526. Later in the decade, it was moved from the routing above, to SW 84th St./Casino Rd. from SR-525 to US 99 (and later I-5), then a new expressway/freeway alignment was built to facilitate better traffic movements around Boeing's Paine Field facility. In around 1999, the connection between the expressway portion and SW 84th St. in Mukilteo was realigned, to feed most traffic to the newly constructed Paine Field Blvd. (SR-525 Spur), preparing for planned rerouting of SR-525 to the ferry terminal. As a result, what was once a single road route, now has a traffic signal and turn to follow the route, something it never technically had previously.
(WA) SR-529 - SR-529 was a replacement for US 99, when it became SR-99 and was truncated to SR-526/SR-527/I-5 in South Everett. It ran from I-5, along Pacific Avenue to Broadway (former US 99), then followed Broadway back to I-5 in North Everett/Marysville. When NS Everett was built, the route was changed to follow Pacific Ave. to Marine View Dr., which would connect at the main gate to the new Naval Station. The routing was later changed to officially use Everett Ave. from I-5 to Marine View Dr, as it was better able to accommodate the traffic volumes. However, the interchange between I-5 and Everett Ave is directional, and only connected to facilitate movements from and to the north. So Pacific Ave was designated as SR-529 Spur, however it is unsigned, aside from the BSG indicting "To: SR-529", with no signs on the streets to facilitate connection to SR-529.
(IN) SR 25 around Delphi Indiana - This route has had no fewer than 3 routings through the city, and now bypasses the city on an Expressway Alignment. The route entered originally from the East, over what it now Samuel Milroy Rd., before following Monroe St. to Washington St. There it met with the old alignment for US 421/SR 39/SR 18, before exiting using the previous alignment to the SW. Later it was routed over the entirety of a newly built Samuel Milroy Rd., to what is now Main St., and followed that through town. Later Main St, was extended to the east, bypassing Samuel Milroy Rd., and providing a straight road to the city limits, before turning North to connect to the ROW, and re-aligning the NE end of Samuel Milroy Rd. (then called Old 25). Main St. was realigned to connect to the newly constructed Hoosier Heartland Highway around 2008, routing SR 25 along the new alignment to Main St, then through town, and out to a newly constructed connection with the HHH SW of the city, before being fully realigned to bypass Delphi around 2011. In the case of Monroe St. and Samuel Milroy Rd., there is little evidence on the ground that the route once used the roads, aside from some extra curbing and width on Monroe Rd., and Samuel Milroy Rd., literally being called Old 25 for almost 40 years.
There are two examples that come to mind for Iowa:
IA 316 was originally designated as a spur from IA 163 (US 163 at the time) south into Runnells. In 1981, IA 316 was extended south to IA 5. In 2003, the portion of IA 316 north of Runnells was decommissioned, turning the highway into a spur from IA 5 north to Runnells and removing the entirety of the original alignment.
I think the highway in Iowa that really exemplifies the Ship of Theseus concept is IA 175. In addition to not including any of its original alignment, IA 175 was gradually cobbled together by absorbing other highways, similar to how the Ship of Theseus was gradually replaced with new parts. The result is a highway that contains portions of several current and former highways but none of its original form.
When IA 175 was first created in October 1930, it was just a short 3/4-mile spur from US 65 into Hubbard. Less than two months later, IA 175 received its first westward extension to Radcliffe.
In 1935, IA 175 was extended westward to Jewell, replacing IA 195.
In 1937, IA 175 was extended westward to Stratford, replacing IA 197 and adding concurrencies with US 69 and IA 17.
In 1940, IA 175 was extended westward to Auburn, replacing IA 91, IA 47, IA 287, and IA 188, and adding concurrencies with US 169 and IA 4.
In 1948, IA 175 was extended westward to Onawa, replacing IA 35 and part of IA 37, and adding concurrencies with US 71, US 59, IA 141, and IA 37 (IA 175 had a redundant concurrency with the part of IA 37 it replaced until 1966).
In 1955, IA 175 was extended westward to the Nebraska border, replacing IA 165.
In 1969, IA 175 was finally extended eastward to US 63, replacing part of IA 57 and IA 58, and adding concurrencies with US 65 and IA 14. This also removed IA 175 from its original alignment into Hubbard.
Due to starting out as such an inconsequential highway, IA 175 has a much higher number than other state highways of its length.
Another interesting thing to note about IA 175 is how many concurrencies it has, another result of the way it was created. Out of the 14 highways that IA 175 intersects, IA 175 has a concurrency with 9 of them, including all 5 US highways that it intersects. Out of the 5 intersecting highways that don't have a concurrency with IA 175, 4 of them end at IA 175, leaving I-29 as the only intersecting highway that doesn't have a concurrency or terminus at IA 175.
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on July 04, 2023, 04:53:06 PM
Quote from: TheStranger on July 04, 2023, 04:50:29 PM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on July 04, 2023, 04:45:32 PM
Quote from: TheStranger on July 04, 2023, 03:52:20 PM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on July 04, 2023, 03:21:38 PM
Turns out CA 71 is a Highway of Theseus route. None of the original 1934 alignment is presently part of the highway.
Looking at your post earlier from Gribblenation, would this be the correct 1934-1936 layout from the north terminus to the San Diego County line:
Garey Avenue south from what was then US 66 south through Pomona to Riverside Drive/current Chino Valley Freeway
An alignment subsumed by the Chino Valley Freeway southeast to Pipeline Avenue
Pipeline Avenue south to today's Route 142
Chino Hills Parkway east to Central Avenue
Central Avenue south to El Prado Road
El Prado Road southeast to Pine Avenue
Pine Avenue slight northeast to Route 83
Route 83 south to Pomona Rincon Road
Pomona Rincon Road (including section removed by Prado Dam construction) south to Auto Center Drive
Auto Center Drive to Pomona Road
Pomona Road to a non-existant crossing towards Yorba Street
Yorba Street to 6th Street in Corona (former US 91)
6th Street east to Main Street
Main Street south to Ontario Avenue
Ontario Avenue southeast to Temescal Canyon Road
Temescal Canyon Road southeast to Lake Street
Lake Street south to Lakeshore Drive
Lakeshore Drive southeast to Mission Trail
Mission Trail to Palomar Street
Palmoar Street south towards Washington Street in Wildomar
Washington Street to Ivy Street, then southbound again at Jefferson
Jefferson Avenue south to Old Town Front Street in Temecula
Front Street to Route 79
Route 79 to Rainbow Valley Road south
Worth noting, it isn't really clear where CA 71 ended after US 395 was extended into California. There isn't much evidence to suggest it was routed south of Elsinore until around 1940 when it was extended past Temecula.
The 1940 California State Highway map (on David Rumsey's site) does show the routing east along today's 79 and 371.
1938 shows 71 ending at Elsinore, and today's 371 as an unpaved road:
https://www.davidrumsey.com/luna/servlet/detail/RUMSEY~8~1~239588~5511892:Road-Map-of-the-State-of-California
(It also shows 83 along what later became 79, not sure if this was ever signed in the field)
CA 83 definitely was signed, one of the shields popped up on eBay a couple years ago. Daniel captured an image of the eBay posting on his page:
(https://www.cahighways.org/maps/079-083-seg3.jpg)
Regarding 71 between Elsinore and Temecula, it isn't really clear what was going with field signage prior to 1940. I just finished a blog on the highway and found no reference to signage status prior to 1940.
The 951 is a desired destination of mine once my ship (of Theseus?) comes in.
"...while I-94 ran alone through the North Side..." For the Edens X-way and Kennedy south of Wilson Av.
The segment from Edens Jct. to O'Hare was once IL-194, then that designation was extended to IL 53 to meet old I-90.*
IL-594 was X-way to O'Hare from Cumberland, now I-190.
* For a few years, the NW Tollway from 294 to IL-53 was "To 90" a temporary numbering before the Ike Extension was completed. Then IL-194, etc. Confusing? Yes.
Now I'm in France I remembered three National Routes that ended up with none of their original routings:
- N132: Started out as Bordeaux-St. Geours de Maremne along today's A63, by the mid 19th Century it had been extended to St. Jean Pied de Port. In 1949 it exchanged its original route with N10. (Deleted 1973)
- N140: Started out as Boismorand-Uzerche, by the mid 19th Century it had been rerouted to Figeac. In 1978 it was shifted to Cressensac Sarrazac to Rodez, retaking part of the Figeac route but none of its original one. (Deleted 2006)
- N202. Created in 1862 (shortly after the annexation of Savoy) as Thonon les Bains-Cluses, extended over the entire Route des Grandes Alpes to Nice in 1920. In 1978 it was shifted to go to Barreme instead, thus none of its original routing remained; this is also the only part retained after 2006.