I'm back to share a long-form of sorts.
The I-95 closure in Philly and subsequent discussion got me thinking, there really shouldn't be that much long-distance traffic on that section of I-95 since NJ has a parallel freeway (I-295) and anyone with endpoints beyond the Philly area should already be using the NJ Turnpike (not to mention I-95 wasn't even continuous until five years ago); US 1 serves as a potential alternate for short-to-medium distance traffic, and the local street network offers several alternatives, none appealing for long-haul traffic but likely serviceable for local traffic. Thus, the impacts of the closure will tend to be dispersed across several alternative roadways depending on origin/destination rather than concentrated on a single alternate route. The overall impact is still notable, but it's mostly manifest as a shift in traffic patterns everywhere rather than a second route becoming completely overwhelmed. This contrasts with the concentric effect often seen with routes in suburban or rural areas (or areas with a fixed street grid) where an incident/closure on route A causes congestion on route B which causes congestion on route C, and so on.
That got me thinking: what is the worst possible location for a roadway incident or closure, in terms of the immediate impact and ripple effects on traffic within a region? It's a surprisingly interesting thought experiment, and I think there's potential for an interesting discussion for each metro area/region across the country.
Interestingly, I happened across the potential answer for the Rochester area on my commute home just a few weeks ago. Prior to leaving, I had checked traffic on Google Maps and identified an incident on NY 104 EB just east of the Bay Bridge. My normal commute doesn't take me that way, but it's a serviceable alternate which I decided to take out of curiosity. The lack of EB traffic was very noticeable for several miles approaching the incident, and it was almost completely empty beyond Bay Rd, beyond which the accident came into view, and it was a bad one. Emergency vehicles dotted the width of the EB carriageway; at least two lanes were fully blocked and if a third lane was open, it was only barely, with traffic getting through one at a time sporadically (and with plenty of rubbernecking, no doubt).
The length of the Bay Bridge gleamed with three lanes of stopped traffic, a rarity caused only by an incident of this severity. I was very thankful to be safe and moving along at speed, but that was short-lived, as traffic ground to a halt as I continued onto 590 SB. That's when I realized the scope of the situation: everyone wanting to avoid the Bay Bridge would be forced south to an alternate through the Irondequoit Bay valley. That meant that when NY 104 EB backed up as far as the NY 590 interchange, traffic had been pouring onto NY 590 SB to access NY 404. Sure enough, I stuck to the left lane and soon found out that the line to turn left onto NY 404 had backed up onto the 590 mainline and slowed mainline traffic all the way to NY 104. Once past that bottleneck, I had clear sailing, but NB traffic was at a crawl. I correctly surmised that both NY 286 and Blossom Rd would be backed up as well (primarily due to NB traffic, with some added SB traffic continuing beyond NY 404 adding to things as well), so I continued down to Penfield Rd to complete an unusual commute home in almost double the normal time.
It was only then that I had a chance to dive back into Google Maps for a closer analysis of the traffic impacts of the accident. These impacts can be applied to any similar incident, and are summarized in part as follows:
Immediate Impacts
1. Traffic on NY 104 EB backs up 1.5 miles to the NY 590 interchange
2. NY 590 NB mainline backs up to NY 404 from the ramp to NY 104 EB (common at rush hour due to the single lane ramp, but it's usually just slow, not stopped)
3. NY 104 EB traffic begins seeking alternates via NY 590 SB
Secondary Impacts
1. NY 590 NB backup extends south to I-490
a. NB traffic begins seeking alternates via NY 404, NY 286, and Blossom Rd
b. NB, EB, and WB approaches to I-490/590 interchange become congested (common at rush hour, but it's usually just slow, not crawling/stopped)
2. NY 404 EB exceeds signal capacity at Winton Rd, ensuring a WB green arrow every cycle
a. NY 404 backs up to NY 590
b. SB traffic exiting at NY 404 backs on to NY 590 mainline
c. NB traffic exiting at NY 404 backs on to NY 590 mainline, slowing it further
d. EB traffic on NY 404 backs up to Culver Rd, local traffic seeks alternates
3. Plank Rd EB exceeds signal capacity at Creek St, backs up to NY 404
4. NY 404 EB exceeds signal capacity at Creek St/Bay Rd, backs up and interferes with local traffic
5. NY 286 EB exceeds left turn capacity at Blossom Rd/Creek St and backs up, eventually as far as N Landing Rd
6. Blossom Rd NB exceeds signal capacity at NY 286 (note lack of right turn lane) and backs up, eventually as far as N Landing Rd
Tertiary Impacts
1. NY 590 NB traffic already north of NY 404 seeks alternatives, including U-turn via Exit 9 (Norton St) and Exit 11 (Ridge Rd), adding to congestion on NY 590 SB and local streets such as Culver Rd and Helendale Rd
2. Winton Rd becomes the primary alternate to NY 590 NB west of the bay
a. Winton Rd becomes gridlocked in both directions between I-490 and Atlantic Ave
b. Browncroft Blvd and Blossom Rd become gridlocked between NY 590 and Winton Rd
3. Creek St NB to Bay Rd NB becomes the primary alternate to NY 590 NB east of the bay
a. Creek St NB exceeds signal capacity at Plank Rd and NY 404
i. Creek St SB left turn at Plank Rd backs up (note absence of green arrow)
ii. Creek St backs up in both directions between NY 404 and Plank Rd
iii. Traffic seeks local alternates, including Yorktown Dr and unnamed cut through to NY 404
b. Bay Rd NB exceeds signal capacity at Ridge Rd
c. Creek St SB left turn at NY 286 backs up (note absence of green arrow)
4. Traffic on NY 286 seeks alternates to avoid left turn onto Creek St.
a. NY 286 exceeds signal capacity at Panorama Trail and Qualtrough Rd
b. NY 286 backs up at lane merge beyond Qualtrough Rd
c. Traffic seeks local alternates, including Qualtrough Rd, Clark Rd, and Scribner Rd
5. NY 404 exceeds signal capacity at Five Mile Line Rd and backs up to where it joins/splits from Ridge Rd (a common occurrence, but usually mid-day or early afternoon, not in the evening)
6. Five Mile Line Rd becomes primary alternate to Creek St/Bay Rd and backs up at Plank Rd and NY 404
7. This (https://www.google.com/maps/dir/Irondequoit+Bay+Outlet+Pier+and+Beach,+4993+Culver+Rd,+Rochester,+NY+14622/Mayer's+Marina/@43.1716583,-77.5341999,14z/data=!4m59!4m58!1m50!1m1!1s0x89d6c846b8cb99c5:0x367e736b80b23335!2m2!1d-77.5346056!2d43.2363888!3m4!1m2!1d-77.5769789!2d43.1985306!3s0x89d6b60e2f874747:0x5e60deb9f81a01a4!3m4!1m2!1d-77.5683789!2d43.18408!3s0x89d6b5fc1074e5c7:0x95f5ac8a7eba2a36!3m4!1m2!1d-77.5678105!2d43.1752967!3s0x89d6b5f14b98bb9d:0x400fbf8860b5375e!3m4!1m2!1d-77.5588658!2d43.1689986!3s0x89d6ca0b276a9fdf:0x7d66f6746b6f4f45!3m4!1m2!1d-77.5456174!2d43.1585241!3s0x89d6ca6f3fd18c41:0x10ac17d8f7a173dc!3m4!1m2!1d-77.5399657!2d43.14966!3s0x89d6ca609a5841e7:0xe015bea752f7e2f5!3m4!1m2!1d-77.5123647!2d43.1356413!3s0x89d6cb032117e3ad:0x36347250fc5d22da!3m4!1m2!1d-77.4929009!2d43.143473!3s0x89d6cb9f8ede112d:0xe3e9ccc651822aba!3m4!1m2!1d-77.4845594!2d43.193326!3s0x89d6c9442caeea8d:0x32bd6004765a1c41!1m5!1m1!1s0x89d6c8442c965de9:0x4eea9ce59a07d7f8!2m2!1d-77.5333132!2d43.2347389!3e0!5m1!1e1?entry=ttu) is the approximate shortest route around the bay with no backups directly resulting from the incident.
That concludes my case that any incident occurring on or near the Bay Bridge has potential to cause greater traffic disruption than an equivalent incident at any other location in the Rochester region.
Secondly, what if instead of looking at an entire region, we look at a single long-distance corridor? That's exactly what I decided to do with I-90 between Buffalo and Syracuse. When I noticed an incident near Montezuma the other day, I started looking at the impact and noticing how much worse it was on that segment than it might be on another segment, and eventually landed on the following "power rankings" , from best to worst segment for an incident or closure to occur. I-290 and I-690 were my endpoints for this analysis.
12. [Exit 50] I-290 to [Exit 49] NY 78
At first glance, this seems like an odd choice for location best able to accommodate an incident or closure — after all, it is the second-busiest section on the list and serves Buffalo area commuter traffic as well as long-haul traffic. But there were two factors that tipped the scales: first, the relative length of the segment; at just over 3 miles in length, it's the shortest segment on the list, so any pain points are confined to a short distance. Second, the availability of four-lane alternates; NY 33 is a decent four-lane alternate that runs parallel just a mile to the south, and while part of it has signals, they're usually timed favorably, and traffic is usually light east of the airport. There's also NY 5, and while that has its own share of traffic woes, it is four lanes as far as NY 78 and can function as a reasonable alternate, and Wehrle Dr can serve as an alternate to NY 5. All told, I wouldn't panic if forced to find an alternate around this section of the Thruway.
11. [Exit 47] I-490 to [Exit 46] I-390
If it wasn't clear already, I weighted the availability of a four-lane alternate very heavily in this exercise, and I-490 is a great high speed one with low traffic for much of the length that would be needed to bypass this segment of the Thruway. Using the entire length of I-490 to bypass both this segment and the next one on the list adds about 10-12 minutes to a LeRoy to Victor trip. It's not perfect, but it is more than serviceable as a long-distance alternative. Traffic would be encouraged to use I-390 to get to/from I-490, as the eastern half of I-490 is more congestion-prone, while Scottsville and West Henrietta loom as obstacles for traffic attempting to stay further south. Meanwhile, I-490 to NY 252 (via NY 259 and NY 33A) saves some mileage and looks good on paper, but the "last mile" from NY 383 to I-390 may have you wishing you just stuck to the interstates.
10. [Exit 46] I-390 to [Exit 45] I-490
Despite the eastern I-390-to-I-490 segment being almost five miles shorter than its counterpart above, it's easy to identify why an incident here would be more problematic. First, if you're heading east and already passed LeRoy, you're stuck with one of the gnarlier Thruway-adjacent areas to navigate, even without congestion. And second, that shorter distance and the relative circularity of the interstate alternative(s) via I-490 may encourage traffic to find a more localized alternate closer to the Thruway, but, as alluded to above, there is an extreme dearth of good ones parallel to this segment. NY 252 and anything in the village of Pittsford are best avoided even at the best of times, and anything else north of the Thruway requires upwards of a dozen turns through Mendon, Pittsford and Perinton exurbia. NY 251 is serviceable, but not well-suited to long-haul traffic with numerous speed zones, plus Mendon and Fishers to deal with on the eastern half of the trek. In short, it's I-490 or bust, which could be both a blessing and a curse, but at least having that option available saves this segment from falling down the list.
(Side note: I kind of want to see the Thruway closed between the ends of I-490 at least once in my lifetime. The traffic impacts on I-490 and throughout the Rochester area, which is usually almost entirely free of long-distance traffic, would be a subject of incredible fascination.)
9. [Exit 42] NY 14 to [Exit 43] NY 414
This was one of the simpler segments to rank since it's relatively short and the alternative is so obvious. It's the NY 318 show, and that means it's actually pretty bearable by the standards of Thruway alternates. Most of it is 55 mph, you can go straight from the Exit 42 ramp to NY 318 and vice versa, and there's only one stoplight (the one at the outlets) between NY 14 and NY 414. The short connection to/from the Thruway via NY 414 is no fun and would greatly benefit from a widening, but at least there's turn lanes and arrows at both the Thruway and NY 318. NY 96 is also a decent alternative from Waterloo/Seneca Falls and points south, with an overbuilt junction at NY 14 that can handle plenty of extra volume.
8. [Exit 44] NY 332 to [Exit 44] NY 21
NY 96 is the primary alternative to this segment, as the road network to the north between the Thruway and NY 31 is not suitable for long-distance traffic. Shortsville Rd is a second serviceable alternate just south of NY 96, while Collett Rd and Kyte Rd combine to form a third alternate north of NY 96. The area is essentially exurban, so NY 96 is already fairly busy on this stretch, with a stoplight at CR 28 and surprising lack of one at CR 8. Manchester and Farmington have potential to become congested, but the availability of options south of the Thruway and the relatively short distance figure to keep this segment manageable.
7. [Exit 48A] NY 77 to [Exit 48] NY 98
We've reached the Batavia section of the list, also known as the "grin and bear it" section. Batavia suffers from sub-optimal connectivity between the various approaching state routes and the Thruway interchange on NY 98, as traffic tends to converge on the overburdened NY 5/NY 33/NY 63/NY 98 intersection on the west side of the city. There are a few local shortcuts to get between NY 5 and the Thruway interchange, namely Union St and Park Rd, and add in River St if you want to get to NY 33 instead of NY 5. Fortunately, NY 5 is four lanes between Batavia and Bushville, allowing traffic to break up before/after the remaining two lane stretch to NY 77, and NY 33 is just a mile south if NY 5 becomes overburdened. There are even some serviceable options north of the Thruway that avoid Batavia entirely if you're prepared for sub-state route levels of maintenance.
6. [Exit 48] NY 98 to [Exit 47] I-490
The drawbacks of Batavia's spoke-like road network are even more evident on the east side of the city. Getting from the Thruway to NY 33 requires navigating a maze of local and residential streets, or slogging it out through a sea of stoplights on NY 33's overlap with NY 5. Once you get to NY 33 and get out of Batavia, though, it's clear sailing on perhaps one of the best two-lane alternates on the list. Even better, traffic can split up partway, with those bound for I-490 staying on NY 33, while those returning to the Thruway can take Griswold Rd to NY 19. As an alternate to NY 33, NY 5 offers several miles of four-lane road enroute to LeRoy, where traffic can use NY 19 to return to the Thruway.
5. [Exit 40] NY 34 to [Exit 39] I-690
Things start to get interesting in the top five. The final stretch west of Syracuse is a long one, at nearly 15 miles. Fortunately, NY 31 covers most of that distance and is reasonably well-equipped to do so, even S-curving to avoid the village of Jordan. Getting from Ionia to the Thruway, however, requires the use of NY 173 and Brickyard Road (the latter of which is well signed as the primary route to the Thruway despite not being a state route). From there, traffic can get directly on I-690 or return to the Thruway, reducing the burden on I-690 Exit 2. Remaining on NY 173 to Herman Rd is a secondary option that goes through the hamlet of Warners.
4. [Exit 43] NY 21 to [Exit 42] NY 14
The primary alternate to this segment is NY 96, which is in many respects an "average" alternate to the Thruway, but the distance of over 13 miles is a factor, as is the fact that it goes right through the heart of Phelps. The roughly two-mile 30 mph zone through Phelps is often slow even without any additional traffic. Notably, it also serves as the primary route from Newark (pop. 9k) to/from the Thruway and points east, adding another layer of through traffic. The junction of NY 96 and NY 88 lacks turn arrows and right turn lanes, which makes it prone to backups, especially EB. Fortunately, NY 96 takes an S-curve to avoid Clifton Springs, and largely avoids Manchester, although the lack of a traffic signal on NY 21 at the Thruway ramps is problematic. At the other end of the segment, the junction with NY 14 is overbuilt and can easily handle extra traffic volume, but unfortunately, that just shifts the bottleneck back to Phelps.
3. [Exit 45] I-490 to [Exit 44] NY 332
At less than four miles in length, this should be an easy segment to detour around, right? Not so fast. That overlooks a multitude of complicating factors, starting with the fact that this is the busiest segment on the list, and the only one with six lanes. Then factor in the village of Victor located just south of the Thruway and the lack of alternates north of the Thruway, and things start to go downhill fast. The Thruway's transition to AET in 2020 has been marvelous overall, but one large problem left unresolved is the bottleneck at the end of EB I-490 created by the toll booth removal. It's almost never possible to navigate at speed, and regularly backs up beyond Exit 29 on summer Fridays. Adding to this problem, the only alternate is Exit 29, which lacks access to NY 96 NB and instead dumps more traffic onto the already overburdened NY 96 SB heading into the village of Victor, which regularly backs up to NY 251 without any additional traffic. As such, Cork Rd to Dryer Rd to School Rd to Boughton Hill Rd has become the unofficial bypass of Victor, but that ends up at a brutal four-way stop with NY 444 that has desperately needed a traffic signal for over a decade, and would be a non-starter with any extra traffic. On the other hand, going south of Boughton Hill Rd isn't viable either, so you're pretty much stuck dealing with one or more major chokepoints. To make things worse, anything north of the Thruway is hard to access (either backtracking on NY 96 to High St or using the one-lane Willowbrook Rd) and is prone to becoming overwhelmed quickly due to the exurban nature of the area and lack of traffic control (i.e. signals) at intersections. On the NY 332 end of things, NY 96 is a total slog east of Victor, and Farmington has become a full-blown suburb itself in recent years, so getting to/from the Thruway interchange at NY 332 is not fun to deal with either.
2. [Exit 49] NY 78 to [Exit 48A] NY 77
If Clarence is Buffalo's equivalent of Victor, I would take it traffic-wise any day of the week, and that's even despite the slog that is NY 5. The problem is that Clarence is sorely lacking in access to the Thruway, as evidenced by the nearly 16-mile segment from Bowmansville to Pembroke. With NY 5 venturing through sub- and exurbia on much of this stretch, NY 33 serves as the primary alternate for long-distance traffic, but it's plenty busy even without extra traffic. It also meets NY 77 in the village of Corfu, where heavy truck traffic making turn movements creates problems, and EB traffic also has a left turn that can snag traffic, not to mention confuse drivers. US 20 is too far south for most traffic and also passes right through the hamlet of Town Line and village of Alden. Some local alternates exist for portions of the route, but the distance is so considerable that traffic will likely stick to a main route or end up on one of them anyways, and that inevitably means a very long slog, primarily on two-lane roads.
1. [Exit 41] NY 414 to [Exit 40] NY 34
It's never a good sign when 30 minutes is your starting point to get between Thruway exits via an alternate route — and that's with no traffic whatsoever. Then add interstate through traffic to an already overburdened stretch of NY 414, very busy sections of NY 318 and US 20/NY 5 complicated by a gnarly five-point junction with NY 89, a National Wildlife Refuge with limited road crossings, the hamlet of Montezuma, the quaint village of Port Byron, and a slog through Weedsport, and you're looking at something pretty close to a nightmare to bypass this 16.5-mile segment of the Thruway no matter how you cut it. I would recommend taking NY 31 to NY 89 to avoid US 20/NY 5, but that still leaves NY 318 or various alternates using local roads to get back to NY 414. At one point during the incident last week, Google Maps started recommending NY 370 to NY 104 between Syracuse and Rochester (which is mostly two lanes and normally at least 10 minutes longer) and that's when I knew this was the clear-cut choice for number one on the list.
Thanks for reading! Thoughts and commentary specific to your own region or to these two case studies are welcome.
Any accident or weather closure on I-5 along the Ridge Route corridor between Castaic and Grapevine Village causes apocalyptic levels cascading traffic problems. There is close to zero redundancy and what little there is tends to be two lane/remote mountain roads like San Francisquito Canyon Road.
Anywhere on the Alaska Highway west of BC 37 cuts Alaska off from the rest of the world.
There's also ON 17 west of Kenora, which cuts off Canada in two in the event of a closure (and it happened before (https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/thunder-bay/nipigon-river-bridge-closed-transcanada-1.3397831)).
Quote from: LilianaUwU on June 22, 2023, 12:01:46 AM
Anywhere on the Alaska Highway west of BC 37 cuts Alaska off from the rest of the world.
There's also ON 17 west of Kenora, which cuts off Canada in two in the event of a closure (and it happened before (https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/thunder-bay/nipigon-river-bridge-closed-transcanada-1.3397831)).
How much through traffic is actually on that road compared to southern routings through US?
Around Metro Chicago, it's anything on the Borman/Kingery Expressway (I-80/94). The Toll Road (I-90) is difficult to reach from I-80/294, and the other alternates are all surface streets through the area with US-30 fairly far to the south. Unfortunately, incidents are all too common on the Borman/Kingery.
A wreck just about anywhere on I-81 in Virginia will tie up traffic for hours/miles due to the volume of traffic on the highway. While there are some places that have parallel U.S. 11 or other roads as an alternative, other locations have no easy outlet for traffic. A typically bad section is the 10 miles northbound between exit 118 at Christiansburg and the Ironto exit. Two lanes, up and down profile, lots of trucks, and no way out once past the exit ramp at Christiansburg.
I-95 in South Carolina is another bad location for an incident -- two lanes and not many alternatives. What alternatives there are are also two lanes and can get just as congested as the interstate.
Quote from: VPIGoose on June 22, 2023, 09:39:49 AM
....
I-95 in South Carolina is another bad location for an incident -- two lanes and not many alternatives. What alternatives there are are also two lanes and can get just as congested as the interstate.
Heh. Some years back for our drive to Florida I had taken US-29 south through Greensboro and we stopped for the night near Charlotte. Heading south on I-26 the next day, we encountered a long line in the right lane waiting to exit to I-95 south. A check of Waze revealed a big wreck that had I-95 backed up as well. I wound up continuing on I-26 all the way down to Charleston and taking US-17 back to the Interstate. At the time, US-17 was two lanes (widening is now complete). The detour added 56 miles to the trip, so it probably didn't save us all that much time in the end, but I'm much happier when I'm moving (and, in that case, using roads that were new to me).
If that happened again, I'd consider trying US-15 south to Walterboro instead of going all the way to Charleston, although my wife tends to be happier on Interstates or four-lane highways. She seems not to like it when I pass people on two-lane roads. Plus, as you note, US-15 is likely to get congested because it's the obvious alternate when you look at a map.
A long time ago, our family was coming home from Florida after New Year's. I-75 hadn't been completed in GA. A semi hauling fruit had tipped over on the exit ramp at the end of the completed freeway. That caused quite the backup. Motor homes were pulling off to the side of the highway to cook and eat meals. My dad found an off-ramp and we, pre any GPS, found our way northward through small towns. Several times we crossed under the freeway or saw it off to the side and it was still clogged up.
Quote from: VTGoose on June 22, 2023, 09:39:49 AM
A wreck just about anywhere on I-81 in Virginia will tie up traffic for hours/miles due to the volume of traffic on the highway. While there are some places that have parallel U.S. 11 or other roads as an alternative, other locations have no easy outlet for traffic. A typically bad section is the 10 miles northbound between exit 118 at Christiansburg and the Ironto exit. Two lanes, up and down profile, lots of trucks, and no way out once past the exit ramp at Christiansburg.
I-95 in South Carolina is another bad location for an incident -- two lanes and not many alternatives. What alternatives there are are also two lanes and can get just as congested as the interstate.
I-95 between Ashland, VA and I-295 also sees a lot of accidents that cause massive backups (sometimes as much as 5 miles) since that segment is only 6 lanes and has a ton of truck traffic.
Closures on I-95 in downtown Richmond due to accidents or flooding (the road is extremely prone to severe flooding) can paralyze the entire metro area.
It really sucks around here when a crash closes I-10 in San Gorgonio Pass. There is no alternative, though it would be very simple to build a two-lane road parallel to the interstate through the pass. There is a way through the middle section, but it doesn't go to either end as there is no eastbound alternative at exit 102 (Ramsey St) and no westbound alternative at exit 111 (CA 111); note that both are simple Y-interchanges. Crashes on this section of I-10 can block traffic for hours. The only way around is using the curvy highways through the mountain ranges north and south of the pass.
Similar problems happen in several places out west, including other places on I-10 between Indio and Blythe along with Cajon Pass and the Grapevine, but this is one of the worst in the country as I-10 is four lanes in each direction through the pass. These crashes also often occur due to high winds through the pass so cleanup crews can be sandblasted while trying to clean up a crash site.
Quote from: Brandon on June 22, 2023, 06:35:00 AM
Around Metro Chicago, it's anything on the Borman/Kingery Expressway (I-80/94). The Toll Road (I-90) is difficult to reach from I-80/294, and the other alternates are all surface streets through the area with US-30 fairly far to the south. Unfortunately, incidents are all too common on the Borman/Kingery.
I was coming here to say exactly this. A wreck on the Borman basically blocks the flow for 25% of the traffic trying to travel across the US. Because there are only 2 limited access highways that travel around the bottom of Lake Michigan (which you can't drive over - and there are only a few very slow ferries, during good weather), if you need to travel east-west between northern cities like Minneapolis, Seattle, Portland, Chicago, Milwaukee and the likes of Detroit, Buffalo, Cleveland, Pittsburgh, New York or Boston, then this is the only real way. You have I-90 going through the apocalypse (er, Gary) and the Borman. Getting to I-90 isn't easy and coming from farther to the west/north, there are only a few times during the day you'd want to try it as it this requires a drive right through downtown Chicago. Brutal. Personally, I wouldn't try it unless you can get through there before 6 am, between 10:00 am and 2:30 pm or after 9:00 pm.
Oh, and there are no good surface street alternates if the Borman goes down. Only a drive through Gary, which is a drive you'd never,
ever, want to take after dark.
This area even makes the I-5/I-405 Y near Tustin, CA look tame.
Quote from: kalvado on June 22, 2023, 05:49:20 AM
Quote from: LilianaUwU on June 22, 2023, 12:01:46 AM
Anywhere on the Alaska Highway west of BC 37 cuts Alaska off from the rest of the world.
There's also ON 17 west of Kenora, which cuts off Canada in two in the event of a closure (and it happened before (https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/thunder-bay/nipigon-river-bridge-closed-transcanada-1.3397831)).
How much through traffic is actually on that road compared to southern routings through US?
I'm pretty sure the AADT is in the low to medium four digits, but it's still the only strictly Canadian connection between two halves of Canada.
Quote from: kalvado on June 22, 2023, 05:49:20 AM
Quote from: LilianaUwU on June 22, 2023, 12:01:46 AM
There's also ON 17 west of Kenora, which cuts off Canada in two in the event of a closure (and it happened before (https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/thunder-bay/nipigon-river-bridge-closed-transcanada-1.3397831)).
How much through traffic is actually on that road compared to southern routings through US?
I'm just spitballing here, but I could only imagine almost all of it, if only to avoid having to go though customs and whatnot twice.
For Colorado, the worst location is, unfortunately, the one that happens most - Glenwood Canyon. 3 hour+ detour every time it happens.
Quote from: LilianaUwU on June 22, 2023, 11:11:12 AM
Quote from: kalvado on June 22, 2023, 05:49:20 AM
Quote from: LilianaUwU on June 22, 2023, 12:01:46 AM
Anywhere on the Alaska Highway west of BC 37 cuts Alaska off from the rest of the world.
There's also ON 17 west of Kenora, which cuts off Canada in two in the event of a closure (and it happened before (https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/thunder-bay/nipigon-river-bridge-closed-transcanada-1.3397831)).
How much through traffic is actually on that road compared to southern routings through US?
I'm pretty sure the AADT is in the low to medium four digits, but it's still the only strictly Canadian connection between two halves of Canada.
Just to nitpick, the Nipigon River Bridge isn't on the section west of Kenora, although it is still a location where there's only one road connection between east and west. Google Maps says it's 601 km via the most direct route from the bridge to the segment west of Kenora. (https://www.google.com/maps/dir/Nipigon+River+Bridge,+Ontario+11,+Nipigon,+ON,+Canada/49.7401052,-94.6537249/@50.1217716,-92.0254393,7.46z/data=!4m9!4m8!1m5!1m1!1s0x4d5c1552f02598fd:0xaba1fff019ce70c!2m2!1d-88.2506672!2d49.0197723!1m0!3e0?entry=ttu)
Any of the mountain passes in the Cascades, as we've seen a few times. The closures for BC during the 2021 floods caused a run on gas and supplies in Metro Vancouver.
For Seattle, there's two critical chokepoints on I-5: around Joint Base Lewis-McChord between Lacey and Lakewood; and between Everett and Marysville. Both jam up during normal times (on weekdays and weekends), but when there's a collision that closes just one lane, all hell breaks loose.
Around here, anything on I-87 near the Twin Bridges is going to tie things up. The only real alternate is US 9, and while US 9 is four lanes, anything leading to/from it is going to get quite jammed (I've seen exit 5 backed up onto the mainline even) if traffic starts diverting.
On the Thruway, exits 15A-16 is an insidious stretch. NY 17 is four lanes, but that section of Thruway is a six-lane section that is very busy (it regularly backs up in peak travel directions on the weekend even without an incident), and the long distance between the exits means that one can get quite deep into it before realizing that there's an incident. Twice now I've even been caught in an incident that shut down the entire northbound direction of travel for a couple hours, and it's not like I travel it an unusually large amount of the time or anything, so my blood pressure always goes up when passing 15A and goes back down again after passing 16 (never had an issue southbound, but then again, I almost always hit that in the morning).
For MSP I would say the I-694 Mississippi River bridge, which is adjacent to the junction of four major routes with no easy alternatives.
Quote from: skluth on June 22, 2023, 10:59:02 AM
It really sucks around here when a crash closes I-10 in San Gorgonio Pass. There is no alternative, though it would be very simple to build a two-lane road parallel to the interstate through the pass. There is a way through the middle section, but it doesn't go to either end as there is no eastbound alternative at exit 102 (Ramsey St) and no westbound alternative at exit 111 (CA 111); note that both are simple Y-interchanges. Crashes on this section of I-10 can block traffic for hours. The only way around is using the curvy highways through the mountain ranges north and south of the pass.
Similar problems happen in several places out west, including other places on I-10 between Indio and Blythe along with Cajon Pass and the Grapevine, but this is one of the worst in the country as I-10 is four lanes in each direction through the pass. These crashes also often occur due to high winds through the pass so cleanup crews can be sandblasted while trying to clean up a crash site.
My solution ended up being Dillon Road and CA 62. But then again I wasn't headed to an endpoint destination in the Inland Empire or Los Angeles.
Quote from: StogieGuy7 on June 22, 2023, 11:07:25 AM
Quote from: Brandon on June 22, 2023, 06:35:00 AM
Around Metro Chicago, it's anything on the Borman/Kingery Expressway (I-80/94). The Toll Road (I-90) is difficult to reach from I-80/294, and the other alternates are all surface streets through the area with US-30 fairly far to the south. Unfortunately, incidents are all too common on the Borman/Kingery.
I was coming here to say exactly this. A wreck on the Borman basically blocks the flow for 25% of the traffic trying to travel across the US. Because there are only 2 limited access highways that travel around the bottom of Lake Michigan (which you can't drive over - and there are only a few very slow ferries, during good weather), if you need to travel east-west between northern cities like Minneapolis, Seattle, Portland, Chicago, Milwaukee and the likes of Detroit, Buffalo, Cleveland, Pittsburgh, New York or Boston, then this is the only real way. You have I-90 going through the apocalypse (er, Gary) and the Borman. Getting to I-90 isn't easy and coming from farther to the west/north, there are only a few times during the day you'd want to try it as it this requires a drive right through downtown Chicago. Brutal. Personally, I wouldn't try it unless you can get through there before 6 am, between 10:00 am and 2:30 pm or after 9:00 pm.
Oh, and there are no good surface street alternates if the Borman goes down. Only a drive through Gary, which is a drive you'd never, ever, want to take after dark.
This area even makes the I-5/I-405 Y near Tustin, CA look tame.
I third this. A truck overturned on the highway during my morning commute eastbound to Gary, and I was stuck on the highway for three, awful hours. It's especially brutal if you're in the thru lanes right after 94 merges on, because you aren't getting off until you get to Calumet. It's already bad during the day, and it needs all the help it can get to
not suck.
Quote from: WillWeaverRVA on June 22, 2023, 10:37:30 AM
Quote from: VTGoose on June 22, 2023, 09:39:49 AM
A wreck just about anywhere on I-81 in Virginia will tie up traffic for hours/miles due to the volume of traffic on the highway. While there are some places that have parallel U.S. 11 or other roads as an alternative, other locations have no easy outlet for traffic. A typically bad section is the 10 miles northbound between exit 118 at Christiansburg and the Ironto exit. Two lanes, up and down profile, lots of trucks, and no way out once past the exit ramp at Christiansburg.
I-95 in South Carolina is another bad location for an incident -- two lanes and not many alternatives. What alternatives there are are also two lanes and can get just as congested as the interstate.
I-95 between Ashland, VA and I-295 also sees a lot of accidents that cause massive backups (sometimes as much as 5 miles) since that segment is only 6 lanes and has a ton of truck traffic.
Closures on I-95 in downtown Richmond due to accidents or flooding (the road is extremely prone to severe flooding) can paralyze the entire metro area.
Another horrible spot is east of the city on I-64 between Exit 205 (VA 249 Bottoms Bridge) and Exit 227 (VA 30). The parallel US 60 and VA 249/30 alternatives gets far enough away from the interstate here to not easily remedy major problems when there's an incident (VA 249/30 routing isn't
too terribly far away, but it's only 2 lanes between those points compared to the 4-lane US 60).
Anywhere along I-65 between Indy and Chicago...
I can't come up with anything specific, but in general...
Places where the highway is dropped down into a narrow trench, with no turnouts/shoulders/etc. Nowhere to go to avoid anything, and you're trapped until the next exit. Places like tunnels/bridges that have no way out/off, or the approaches thereto.
But I'll also throw in rural areas in general, especially if there's little traffic and no cell service.
Come to think of it, I drive in a lot of rural places with no cell service.
Quote from: zachary_amaryllis on June 23, 2023, 07:46:39 AM
I can't come up with anything specific, but in general...
Places where the highway is dropped down into a narrow trench, with no turnouts/shoulders/etc. Nowhere to go to avoid anything, and you're trapped until the next exit. Places like tunnels/bridges that have no way out/off, or the approaches thereto.
Elevated highways, too.
Clays Ferry Bridge between Lexington and Richmond Kentucky comes to mind.
SM-G996U
Quote from: kphoger on June 23, 2023, 10:30:53 AM
Quote from: zachary_amaryllis on June 23, 2023, 07:46:39 AM
I can't come up with anything specific, but in general...
Places where the highway is dropped down into a narrow trench, with no turnouts/shoulders/etc. Nowhere to go to avoid anything, and you're trapped until the next exit. Places like tunnels/bridges that have no way out/off, or the approaches thereto.
Elevated highways, too.
I'd say that heavily trafficked corridors where perhaps multiple busy routes come together, yet there is no feasible (or at least reasonable) alternative route is available if it all goes bad. There are actually quite a few locations across the USA where this description fits well and pretty much any of those would probably qualify for the thread.
Quote from: 1995hoo on June 22, 2023, 09:58:41 AM
Quote from: VPIGoose on June 22, 2023, 09:39:49 AM
....
I-95 in South Carolina is another bad location for an incident -- two lanes and not many alternatives. What alternatives there are are also two lanes and can get just as congested as the interstate.
Heh. Some years back for our drive to Florida I had taken US-29 south through Greensboro and we stopped for the night near Charlotte. Heading south on I-26 the next day, we encountered a long line in the right lane waiting to exit to I-95 south. A check of Waze revealed a big wreck that had I-95 backed up as well. I wound up continuing on I-26 all the way down to Charleston and taking US-17 back to the Interstate. At the time, US-17 was two lanes (widening is now complete). The detour added 56 miles to the trip, so it probably didn't save us all that much time in the end, but I'm much happier when I'm moving (and, in that case, using roads that were new to me).
If that happened again, I'd consider trying US-15 south to Walterboro instead of going all the way to Charleston, although my wife tends to be happier on Interstates or four-lane highways. She seems not to like it when I pass people on two-lane roads. Plus, as you note, US-15 is likely to get congested because it's the obvious alternate when you look at a map.
Meant that some of the alternatives around I-95 (U.S. highways and frontage roads) are just two lanes, one in each direction.
With a son and his family in St. Petersburg (after living in Apollo Beach for 5 years), we have traveled back and forth between there and the mountains of Virginia. We've seen I-26 and I-95 bottled up for miles and at times have been stuck in that traffic. If jams are discovered soon enough, there are other ways to get from Columbia to Savannah. Earlier this spring, I-95 coming north was a mess in both Georgia and South Carolina. U.S. 17 from north of Brunswick to Richmond Hill was a nice diversion once we got out of traffic that jumped back on to I-95. Rather than deal with the interstates in South Carolina to reach our overnight stop in Columbia, I headed up U.S. 321 out of Hardeeville. It was one of the least stressful drives with almost no traffic. My wife is the same way, isn't always in favor of some of my "back roads" travel, but this one worked out well.
Bruce in Blacksburg
Quote from: VPIGoose on June 23, 2023, 01:23:43 PM
Quote from: 1995hoo on June 22, 2023, 09:58:41 AM
Quote from: VPIGoose on June 22, 2023, 09:39:49 AM
....
I-95 in South Carolina is another bad location for an incident -- two lanes and not many alternatives. What alternatives there are are also two lanes and can get just as congested as the interstate.
Heh. Some years back for our drive to Florida I had taken US-29 south through Greensboro and we stopped for the night near Charlotte. Heading south on I-26 the next day, we encountered a long line in the right lane waiting to exit to I-95 south. A check of Waze revealed a big wreck that had I-95 backed up as well. I wound up continuing on I-26 all the way down to Charleston and taking US-17 back to the Interstate. At the time, US-17 was two lanes (widening is now complete). The detour added 56 miles to the trip, so it probably didn't save us all that much time in the end, but I'm much happier when I'm moving (and, in that case, using roads that were new to me).
If that happened again, I'd consider trying US-15 south to Walterboro instead of going all the way to Charleston, although my wife tends to be happier on Interstates or four-lane highways. She seems not to like it when I pass people on two-lane roads. Plus, as you note, US-15 is likely to get congested because it's the obvious alternate when you look at a map.
Meant that some of the alternatives around I-95 (U.S. highways and frontage roads) are just two lanes, one in each direction.
....
Right, I got that part. That's what my reference to my wife not liking it when I pass people on a two-lane road was referring to–meaning the type of road where you pass in the oncoming lane of traffic. It was also what my reference to US-17 between Charleston and I-95 having been two lanes at the time of the prior trip meant–they widened it from a two-lane road to a four-lane divided highway (still has at-grade intersections, but those aren't a big deal).
Quote from: ibthebigd on June 23, 2023, 11:02:40 AM
Clays Ferry Bridge between Lexington and Richmond Kentucky comes to mind.
SM-G996U
There's a good alternative route in KY 627, which runs from White Hall (Exit 95) to Winchester, where you can pick up I-64.
One can also take KY 52 from Richmond to Lancaster, then US 27 north to Lexington. That route will become even more attractive when the KY 52 connection at I-75 Exit 83 (the Buc-ee's exit) is completed.
Another long-ago incident, while traveling with my family in the Florida Keys:
US-1 off Key Largo to the mainland was closed down for something. The detour was to use a toll bridge. It took forever to get thru the toll booth.
I suppose it could have been worse - one of the bridges between Key West and Key Largo could have been closed.
I-40 west of Nashville gets really bad when there are traffic issues. Between Jackson and Dickson, around 90 miles, US 70 stays pretty far to the north. And TN 100 isn't much closer. Even in the area from Dickson to Nashville, where 70 and 100 are closer, it still gets bad because both of those alternatives are mostly two lanes until you get right into the developed suburbs.
At least twice that I can remember I've been stuck on the William Preston Lane Memorial Bridges for about an hour. Both times near the middle of the suspension spans. Once on each bridge, but both times headed eastbound. Nice view, especially with ships passing underneath. But you're definitely not going anywhere, and certainly has a ripple effect on any traffic nearby.
Quote from: GaryV on June 23, 2023, 03:30:43 PM
Another long-ago incident, while traveling with my family in the Florida Keys:
US-1 off Key Largo to the mainland was closed down for something. The detour was to use a toll bridge. It took forever to get thru the toll booth.
I suppose it could have been worse - one of the bridges between Key West and Key Largo could have been closed.
That's a good one. Especially between Key Largo and Homestead, even though it has and alternate route, because of that 20 mile lone cattle chute that means that any incident will shut down the road in a given direction, with any traffic on it stuck until resolution. I wouldn't be surprised if emergency services have to wait for traffic ahead of the incident to clear and then drive down the wrong way.
Quote from: Bruce on June 22, 2023, 12:08:21 PM
For Seattle, there's two critical chokepoints on I-5: around Joint Base Lewis-McChord between Lacey and Lakewood; and between Everett and Marysville. Both jam up during normal times (on weekdays and weekends), but when there's a collision that closes just one lane, all hell breaks loose.
I would give the "worst of..." edge to that stretch of I-5 through Joint Base Lewis-McChord. There is zero realistic alternative to that route; the best option (510 to 507 to 7 to 512) adds 30 miles, and it's entirely either roads that are maximum two lanes, winding through small towns and reservations, or large roads that are extremely poor at handling traffic (Pac Ave). Even if you exit way back at Grand Mound, you still conflict with traffic at Yelm. The best alternatives are 101 to 3 to 16 via Belfair and Port Orchard, adding 50 miles but lots of freeway, or US-12 to 7 through
Morton(!!!), adding 25 to 30 miles of entirely two-lane highway. Just completely outrageous alternatives that are so ludicrous, avoiding travel is the best actual option.
By comparison, I feel like that stretch of I-5 from Everett to Marysville has a couple "reasonable" alternatives: 529, 9, Sunnyside Blvd, etc. None that could ever handle all of I-5's traffic, of course, but they don't require outrageous detours.
Quote from: VTGoose on June 22, 2023, 09:39:49 AM
I-95 in South Carolina is another bad location for an incident -- two lanes and not many alternatives. What alternatives there are are also two lanes and can get just as congested as the interstate.
I was heading north on 95 from Charleston when a truck overturned on the bridge over Lake Marion. Thats how i learned that there are zero alternate routes that actually cross that lake. The closest ways around are US 601 or SC 45, both of which add quite a bit of distance. Most traffic seemed to opt for SC 45 to US 52, so i went US 176 to US 601 instead.
Another spot for Virginia is I-64 at the west end of the Hampton Roads Bridge Tunnel. Hopefully it would get better with the new widening/rebuild.
If accidents/closures happen at both the HRBT and the MMMBT (I-664), it wouldn't be very good for traffic...
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on June 22, 2023, 02:25:06 PM
Quote from: skluth on June 22, 2023, 10:59:02 AM
It really sucks around here when a crash closes I-10 in San Gorgonio Pass. There is no alternative, though it would be very simple to build a two-lane road parallel to the interstate through the pass. There is a way through the middle section, but it doesn't go to either end as there is no eastbound alternative at exit 102 (Ramsey St) and no westbound alternative at exit 111 (CA 111); note that both are simple Y-interchanges. Crashes on this section of I-10 can block traffic for hours. The only way around is using the curvy highways through the mountain ranges north and south of the pass.
Similar problems happen in several places out west, including other places on I-10 between Indio and Blythe along with Cajon Pass and the Grapevine, but this is one of the worst in the country as I-10 is four lanes in each direction through the pass. These crashes also often occur due to high winds through the pass so cleanup crews can be sandblasted while trying to clean up a crash site.
My solution ended up being Dillon Road and CA 62. But then again I wasn't headed to an endpoint destination in the Inland Empire or Los Angeles.
Dillon Road can be quite handy in the Coachella Valley but doesn't run west into San Gorgonio Pass or east of Indio so wouldn't work in those situations.
Quote from: jakeroot on June 24, 2023, 12:03:20 AM
By comparison, I feel like that stretch of I-5 from Everett to Marysville has a couple "reasonable" alternatives: 529, 9, Sunnyside Blvd, etc. None that could ever handle all of I-5's traffic, of course, but they don't require outrageous detours.
Well, it only helps to an extent. SR 529 is also backed up normally, has three movable bridges (one of which is now capped at 25 mph), and dumps out in a downtown with railroad crossings. Sunnyside is a winding two-lane road. SR 9 is a bit out there and is also only two lanes, carrying much of its own commuter traffic.
Quote from: JayhawkCO on June 22, 2023, 11:31:12 AM
For Colorado, the worst location is, unfortunately, the one that happens most - Glenwood Canyon. 3 hour+ detour every time it happens.
We visit Glenwood twice a year, though given where I live, we come down CO 131 to Wolcott, and pick up I-70 there.
We haven't beeen hit with a closure yet... but the point at which CO 131 intersects US 40 is sort of the 'decision' point. Does it look like it might rain by the time we get there? It'd be a really sucky example of 'gambled and lost', if you did.
When the I-40 Mississippi River bridge closed, it caused major traffic headaches. Imagine if both bridges were closed at the same time. If the New Madrid Fault decided to go off, that could very easily happen. They need to build at least two new bridges in Memphis.
In Connecticut, many of the large river crossings of I-95 don't have easy detours and would cause serious issues. The fire on the Gold Star Bridge a few months ago essentially deadlocked traffic in southeast CT for the day. A closure of the Baldwin Bridge would require a ~30 mile detour on primarily 2-lane roads to a swing bridge that often gets stuck. Could be quite the mess!
Realistically any part of I-95 from about Richmond to Boston. Although some points are obviously worse than others, that corridor is the most important one in the entire US connecting the largest city, capital, numerous other large cities, and a nearly continuous megalopolis between them. That part of the country is so key it really should have a second route, something like a real I-99, for redundancy reasons, especially civil and national defense.
Inside the Charleston metro area, being a city of bridges, really any of the major bridges (2 on US 17, 3 on I-526, Isle of Palms Connector) cause a monumental traffic issue whenever there is an accident.
I'd say the worst though is US 17 and the Ravenel Bridge. Whenever there is an accident there that closes the bridge (or other weird situations that happen from time to time), people have to go all the way around to I-526 through Daniel Island, adding like 20 miles to the distance from Charleston to Mt. Pleasant.
SM-G998U
Quote from: HighwayStar on July 02, 2023, 10:13:14 PM
Realistically any part of I-95 from about Richmond to Boston. Although some points are obviously worse than others, that corridor is the most important one in the entire US connecting the largest city, capital, numerous other large cities, and a nearly continuous megalopolis between them. That part of the country is so key it really should have a second route, something like a real I-99, for redundancy reasons, especially civil and national defense.
The part of I-95 that collapsed was on a segment with redundancy (the other one being the New Jersey Turnpike). Similarly, New York to Boston has CT 15 → I-91 → I-84 → I-90 (or I-495 if you're going past Boston).
Quote from: 1 on July 03, 2023, 10:17:38 AM
Quote from: HighwayStar on July 02, 2023, 10:13:14 PM
Realistically any part of I-95 from about Richmond to Boston. Although some points are obviously worse than others, that corridor is the most important one in the entire US connecting the largest city, capital, numerous other large cities, and a nearly continuous megalopolis between them. That part of the country is so key it really should have a second route, something like a real I-99, for redundancy reasons, especially civil and national defense.
The part of I-95 that collapsed was on a segment with redundancy (the other one being the New Jersey Turnpike). Similarly, New York to Boston has CT 15 → I-91 → I-84 → I-90 (or I-495 if you're going past Boston).
CT-15 isn't fully redundant for I-95 since it is only for passenger vehicles. It's also already beyond capacity, so any diversion of traffic from 95 to 15 would just gridlock it.
I'm not as familiar with the NYC area roads to know how to get traffic there, but diverting I-95 traffic to I-84 for those who are bound for Boston or beyond could maybe be feasible.
Quote from: 1 on July 03, 2023, 10:17:38 AM
Quote from: HighwayStar on July 02, 2023, 10:13:14 PM
Realistically any part of I-95 from about Richmond to Boston. Although some points are obviously worse than others, that corridor is the most important one in the entire US connecting the largest city, capital, numerous other large cities, and a nearly continuous megalopolis between them. That part of the country is so key it really should have a second route, something like a real I-99, for redundancy reasons, especially civil and national defense.
The part of I-95 that collapsed was on a segment with redundancy (the other one being the New Jersey Turnpike). Similarly, New York to Boston has CT 15 → I-91 → I-84 → I-90 (or I-495 if you're going past Boston).
That is not true redundancy in the sense of another parallel interstate. You can always string together some series of routes that theoretically bypasses but it will not always be interstate standard (as CT 15 is not) and will not have full lane flow the entire way (ie. exiting to change routes)
A proper I-99 would be full redundancy as an interstate grade route the entire way with a minimum of 2 full lanes of traffic capacity in the main line. It would also be signed as such which is key to navigation.
Quote from: Hunty2022 on June 24, 2023, 09:11:22 AM
Another spot for Virginia is I-64 at the west end of the Hampton Roads Bridge Tunnel. Hopefully it would get better with the new widening/rebuild.
It will certainly be better once the widening is complete around 2026. In the meantime, however, it is about to get worse. VDOT will be reducing I-64 between just east of I-664 and the HRBT from 6 lanes to 4 lanes permanently starting either later this month, or next month. This will accommodate the construction of 4 HO/T lanes (2 in each direction) that will tie into the under construction HRBT.
I disagree with their decision to replace a GP lane with a HO/T lane (not sure if this is even allowed on the interstate highway system), however the current decision to eliminate the lane entirely during construction will simply shift backups either further west on I-64, going even past I-664 likely.
Quote from: sprjus4 on July 03, 2023, 12:26:27 PM
I disagree with their decision to replace a GP lane with a HO/T lane (not sure if this is even allowed on the interstate highway system), however the current decision to eliminate the lane entirely during construction will simply shift backups either further west on I-64, going even past I-664 likely.
That's the problem, anything goes these days. HO/T, express, etc. lanes are always a sub-optimal choice yet we keep getting stuck with more of the damn things. :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead:
Quote from: sprjus4 on July 03, 2023, 12:26:27 PM
Quote from: Hunty2022 on June 24, 2023, 09:11:22 AM
Another spot for Virginia is I-64 at the west end of the Hampton Roads Bridge Tunnel. Hopefully it would get better with the new widening/rebuild.
It will certainly be better once the widening is complete around 2026. In the meantime, however, it is about to get worse. VDOT will be reducing I-64 between just east of I-664 and the HRBT from 6 lanes to 4 lanes permanently starting either later this month, or next month. This will accommodate the construction of 4 HO/T lanes (2 in each direction) that will tie into the under construction HRBT.
I disagree with their decision to replace a GP lane with a HO/T lane (not sure if this is even allowed on the interstate highway system), however the current decision to eliminate the lane entirely during construction will simply shift backups either further west on I-64, going even past I-664 likely.
Mileage-wise, it will most likely stretch past I-664. The Norfolk side is notorious for stretching past Tidewater Dr (a seven mile backup) and that side has always been 4-lane down to I-564, so that should give you an idea to what to expect once they drop the lane.
I don't see a huge amount of people opting for I-664 as the MMMBT has problems of its own.
^ If only that US-460 freeway was built a decade ago... sigh.
For Cleveland, OH, ANY closure of I-90/SR-2 between E. 55th St. and E. 185th St.
Case in point, about 7 years ago on a Friday in June, there was a chemical spill on the eastbound lanes in Bratenahl (about midway between the aforementioned streets) which closed the interstate well into the afternoon rush.
The ONLY east-west freeway alternative was I-77 to I-480 well to the south, which already is an extremely heavy corridor on a good day. So that left the surface street alternatives (Lake Shore Blvd / St. Clair / Superior / Chester / Euclid / Carnegie) -- all of which are mostly 2 or 3 lanes in each direction with miles of poorly timed traffic lights through shady neighborhoods.
Pretty much EVERY street was gridlocked from downtown, and what would normally be a 20 minute drive from downtown to Euclid took well over 2 hours.
I happened to be visiting my hometown there on vacation the day this happened and had to get from Downtown to Mentor (far-northeast side), so the I-480 alternative wouldn't have helped me much time-wise.
Had the Clark Freeway (I-290) had been built connecting I-77 to I-271 in the 60's, there would have been a decent alternative route for I-90 thru traffic, but the hoity-toity east siders nixed that idea, so now there is a large section of the east-central side of Cleveland and it's adjoining suburbs with no real east-west free-flow connection to downtown and west.
BTW, it's even worse in the winter if the weather or resulting pile-ups shut I-90 down.
Quote from: webny99 on June 21, 2023, 11:14:40 PM
(Side note: I kind of want to see the Thruway closed between the ends of I-490 at least once in my lifetime. The traffic impacts on I-490 and throughout the Rochester area, which is usually almost entirely free of long-distance traffic, would be a subject of incredible fascination.)
So, I kinda sorta got my wish today. There was a temporary lane closure on the westbound Thruway near Scottsville, which had traffic backed up for a few miles from mid-morning to around 5PM, so it was variably faster to take I-490 end to end than to stay on the Thruway. I grabbed this screenshot to show a two-minute time savings via I-490:
(https://imgur.com/JNoZ2dW.jpg)
There was not, however, any issues on I-490 generated by extra traffic. Realistically, it would take a full closure of the Thruway to generate enough additional traffic to even register on I-490 beyond the normal rush hour trouble spots, and even then, west of Exit 8 would probably still hold up fine.
The Mackinac Bridge. When it closes, it literally divides the state of Michigan in half.
Even worse: the Nipigon River Bridge on the Trans-Canada Highway (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nipigon_River_Bridge). If that closes, it divides Canada in half and creates a detour through the United States.
Quote from: skluth on June 22, 2023, 10:59:02 AM
It really sucks around here when a crash closes I-10 in San Gorgonio Pass. There is no alternative, though it would be very simple to build a two-lane road parallel to the interstate through the pass. There is a way through the middle section, but it doesn't go to either end as there is no eastbound alternative at exit 102 (Ramsey St) and no westbound alternative at exit 111 (CA 111); note that both are simple Y-interchanges. Crashes on this section of I-10 can block traffic for hours. The only way around is using the curvy highways through the mountain ranges north and south of the pass.
Similar problems happen in several places out west, including other places on I-10 between Indio and Blythe along with Cajon Pass and the Grapevine, but this is one of the worst in the country as I-10 is four lanes in each direction through the pass. These crashes also often occur due to high winds through the pass so cleanup crews can be sandblasted while trying to clean up a crash site.
When the I-10 bridge collapsed east of Coachella a few years ago, Caltrans and ADOT had the detour go through the Imperial Valley and back up through Gila Bend and Buckeye.
15 through the Cajon Pass is also a logistical nightmare whenever there's an accident or fire, very similar to the 10 through the San Gorgonio. There's a gap in Cajon Blvd between Cleghorn and the 138.
An accident on I-15 south of Vegas on a Sunday anywhere between Nipton Road and Baker.
Quote from: webny99 on August 16, 2023, 10:57:49 PM
Quote from: webny99 on June 21, 2023, 11:14:40 PM
(Side note: I kind of want to see the Thruway closed between the ends of I-490 at least once in my lifetime. The traffic impacts on I-490 and throughout the Rochester area, which is usually almost entirely free of long-distance traffic, would be a subject of incredible fascination.)
So, I kinda sorta got my wish today. There was a temporary lane closure on the westbound Thruway near Scottsville, which had traffic backed up for a few miles from mid-morning to around 5PM, so it was variably faster to take I-490 end to end than to stay on the Thruway. I grabbed this screenshot to show a two-minute time savings via I-490:
[img snipped]http://There was not, however, any issues on I-490 generated by extra traffic. Realistically, it would take a full closure of the Thruway to generate enough additional traffic to even register on I-490 beyond the normal rush hour trouble spots, and even then, west of Exit 8 would probably still hold up fine.
Same thing again today, appears to be construction-related. It almost looks like the same screenshot unless you look closely:
(https://imgur.com/cGFAB7K.jpg)
1. I-91 at US 5, Springfield. Narrow and winding, predates Interstate designation. Any bypass would take you on surface streets.
https://www.google.com/maps/@42.0777412,-72.5782383,1342m/data=!3m1!1e3?entry=ttu (https://www.google.com/maps/@42.0777412,-72.5782383,1342m/data=!3m1!1e3?entry=ttu)
2. I-84 at I-684, Brewster, NY. One lane ramps for all movements at an already overloaded interchange.
https://www.google.com/maps/@41.390186,-73.5977464,466m/data=!3m1!1e3?entry=ttu (https://www.google.com/maps/@41.390186,-73.5977464,466m/data=!3m1!1e3?entry=ttu)
I was in the Upper Peninsula one day in the winter I decided to drive up to my place in Cedarville for the day and hang out in the off season which is the time of the year that I love up there. It was a nice calm day as I left Saginaw and headed north along I-75 I believe it was in the 30's for temps. So I got to Gaylord which is where I usually make my last stop before the bridge if I'm going to the U.P. and it started snowing as I got off the highway at M-32 and went and filled up my gas tank and got something to eat before getting back on the highway. As I left Gaylord and headed north it started snowing harder as I got closer to the bridge I tuned into the radio channel for the Mackinac Bridge Authority and hearded them announce that the bridge was being partially closed as winds were gusting to around 40 mph in the straits. I got up to the bridge and they were only allowing you to drive at 20 mph. I drove out onto the bridge and felt fine for about the first mile, as I got on the suspension part of the bridge I could feel it rocking back and forth and thought this bridge has been here since 1957 and nothing has happened to it I think I'm ok. Got over that sucker and paid the toll, went up to Cedarville, coming back I did the same thing as when I was going tuning into the radio and listening, well this time they closed the bridge down completely and weren't sure exactly when it would re-open. I thought this sucks I can't get back to the lower peninsula. I turned around and went back to Cedarville and spent the night in my cabin. It was cold as hell for awhile. I'm sure this is a typical Michigan thing to have happen to you. If I didn't have my cabin to spend the night in I would have just got a hotel in St. Ignace. Actually when I think about it now I thought it was a lot of fun having all that happen to me.
On a quick read through this thread I did not see American Legion Bridge which crosses Potomac River northwest of DC. Due to lack of other ways across the river to the northwest of DC (no other options presently in that direction until US 15), a lot of traffic funnels through there (I-270 from Frederick/Rockville, I-495 traffic between Bethesda MD and Tysons Corner VA). I work near there on the Maryland side, and also live in Maryland, which is good because I can detour on back roads and get home without having to go on the interstate. It is not an accident that I have always minimized having to cross the river on my commutes.
If an accident occurs at the wrong time (or an "official motorcade" which also happens around here [doesn't matter who is in office]), it can cause tremendously long backups, both in miles and time. When motorcades occur they close the road, doesn't matter what time of day.
Quote from: tmoore952 on August 31, 2023, 04:43:50 PM
On a quick read through this thread I did not see American Legion Bridge which crosses Potomac River northwest of DC. Due to lack of other ways across the river to the northwest of DC (no other options presently in that direction until US 15), a lot of traffic funnels through there (I-270 from Frederick/Rockville, I-495 traffic between Bethesda MD and Tysons Corner VA). I work near there on the Maryland side, and also live in Maryland, which is good because I can detour on back roads and get home without having to go on the interstate. It is not an accident that I have always minimized having to cross the river on my commutes.
If an accident occurs at the wrong time (or an "official motorcade" which also happens around here [doesn't matter who is in office]), it can cause tremendously long backups, both in miles and time. When motorcades occur they close the road, doesn't matter what time of day.
Some of us remember the jumper on the Woodrow Wilson Bridge that held up traffic on the Beltway for hours (8, if memory serves). Some time around the year 2000.
An overheight truck struck an overpass right before the Tappan Zee this morning, past the merge point for any on-ramps, causing 3 of 5 lanes to be closed for most of the day. The results were predictably disastrous throughout Rockland County:
(https://i.imgur.com/7Tr6gwc.png)
Probably any of the bridges across the southern part of the Mississippi River.
For example if the Natchez-Vidalia bridge was closed, it would take hours to drive between the cities - either up to Vicksburg or all the way south to almost Baton Rouge.
Quote from: RM42 on September 01, 2023, 01:16:48 PM
Probably any of the bridges across the southern part of the Mississippi River.
For example if the Natchez-Vidalia bridge was closed, it would take hours to drive between the cities - either up to Vicksburg or all the way south to almost Baton Rouge.
About 3 hours, around 170 miles. I wonder why there aren't more bridges along that part of the Mississippi.
^ Too expensive to build.
Quote from: interstate73 on August 31, 2023, 11:19:24 PM
An overheight truck struck an overpass right before the Tappan Zee this morning, past the merge point for any on-ramps, causing 3 of 5 lanes to be closed for most of the day. The results were predictably disastrous throughout Rockland County:
[img clipped]
As a follow-up to this: The southbound Thruway will be closed most of tomorrow to allow for emergency repairs to the struck overpass, which means the southbound Tappan Zee is closed by default as well. Will be interesting to see how bad the congestion is at the surrounding bridges - I'd imagine the GWB, Bear Mountain, and Newburgh-Beacon will all have varying amounts of impact.
Quote from: jmacswimmer on September 08, 2023, 12:53:14 PM
Quote from: interstate73 on August 31, 2023, 11:19:24 PM
An overheight truck struck an overpass right before the Tappan Zee this morning, past the merge point for any on-ramps, causing 3 of 5 lanes to be closed for most of the day. The results were predictably disastrous throughout Rockland County:
[img clipped]
As a follow-up to this: The southbound Thruway will be closed most of tomorrow to allow for emergency repairs to the struck overpass, which means the southbound Tappan Zee is closed by default as well. Will be interesting to see how bad the congestion is at the surrounding bridges - I'd imagine the GWB, Bear Mountain, and Newburgh-Beacon will all have varying amounts of impact.
Wow. Really any of the Hudson River crossings south of Albany could qualify for this thread, but the TZ is definitely the most impactful one north of NYC proper. The GWB handles so much volume that it's expected to have bad traffic, so I expect Bear Mountain to be the biggest choke point, especially on a Saturday/weekend. Will be interesting to monitor, and let's hope it doesn't last into Sunday, as that will be a nightmare for weekend traffic trying to head back east.
Quote from: JayhawkCO on June 22, 2023, 11:31:12 AM
For Colorado, the worst location is, unfortunately, the one that happens most - Glenwood Canyon. 3 hour+ detour every time it happens.
Not sure if anyone saw it, but there was a crash in Eagle, CO (https://www.9news.com/article/traffic/crash-i-70-us-6-eagle-county/73-e945de89-5d8d-4137-84fa-1d2e124affd3) that caused a brush fire which closed I-70 and US6 for a while yesterday. Three hour detours on CO13->US40->CO9. Both directions of I-70 are finally open but US6 remains closed.
Quote from: JayhawkCO on September 08, 2023, 05:27:37 PM
Quote from: JayhawkCO on June 22, 2023, 11:31:12 AM
For Colorado, the worst location is, unfortunately, the one that happens most - Glenwood Canyon. 3 hour+ detour every time it happens.
Not sure if anyone saw it, but there was a crash in Eagle, CO (https://www.9news.com/article/traffic/crash-i-70-us-6-eagle-county/73-e945de89-5d8d-4137-84fa-1d2e124affd3) that caused a brush fire which closed I-70 and US6 for a while yesterday. Three hour detours on CO13->US40->CO9. Both directions of I-70 are finally open but US6 remains closed.
Once you're out of the canyon on the east, passenger and most smaller vehicles can exit at Dotsero, and follow Colorado River Road northeast (mostly a hard-packed dirt road) to CO‐131 south to rejoin I-70 at Wolcott. Larger vehicles would likely need to do the much longer US-40 detour.
But, in general, there are a lot of choke points along key points of I-70 west of Denver.
Quote from: webny99 on June 21, 2023, 11:14:40 PM
...
That got me thinking: what is the worst possible location for a roadway incident or closure, in terms of the immediate impact and ripple effects on traffic within a region? It's a surprisingly interesting thought experiment, and I think there's potential for an interesting discussion for each metro area/region across the country.
...
That concludes my case that any incident occurring on or near the Bay Bridge has potential to cause greater traffic disruption than an equivalent incident at any other location in the Rochester region.
...
Today, we're finding out how the inverse situation affects traffic on the east side of the Rochester metro. That is, what happens when, instead of
avoiding the Bay Bridge, everyone is relying on it? That's the case right now because of an accident near Empire Blvd/Plank Rd (news article
here (https://13wham.com/news/local/crash-on-empire-blvd-knocks-out-power-shuts-down-traffic-plank-road-penfield)) that resulted in localized power outages and all three approaches to Empire/Plank have been closed since mid-morning. Congestion has already started at the usual trouble spots - namely Bay Rd approaching NY 104, the 104 EB exit at Bay, and NY 590 NB (which can be sticky even on a good day).
Quote from: LilianaUwU on June 22, 2023, 12:01:46 AM
Anywhere on the Alaska Highway west of BC 37 cuts Alaska off from the rest of the world.
Not completely. The Campbell Highway (Yukon 4) is an alternative, though largely unpaved and with limited traveler services (for example, no gas between Ross River and Watson Lake). Alaska Marine Highway ferries out of Prince William Sound, Haines, and Skagway provide limited additional options. Top of the World Highway between the Alaska Highway and Dawson YT, is a summer-only alternative for some other parts of the Alaska Highway.
A more worrisome issue is that Anchorage has only two land escape routes, one north and one south of the city (no complete old alignments either, since the old roads were generally covered in key places by the new pavement). Anchorage got whacked hard by the magnitude 9.2 Good Friday earthquake in 1964 (strongest earthquake recorded in North America), when the city had much less population than it has now. The earthquake danger hasn't gone away.
Quote from: webny99 on September 13, 2023, 03:34:25 PM
Quote from: webny99 on June 21, 2023, 11:14:40 PM
...
That got me thinking: what is the worst possible location for a roadway incident or closure, in terms of the immediate impact and ripple effects on traffic within a region? It's a surprisingly interesting thought experiment, and I think there's potential for an interesting discussion for each metro area/region across the country.
...
That concludes my case that any incident occurring on or near the Bay Bridge has potential to cause greater traffic disruption than an equivalent incident at any other location in the Rochester region.
...
Today, we're finding out how the inverse situation affects traffic on the east side of the Rochester metro. That is, what happens when, instead of avoiding the Bay Bridge, everyone is relying on it? That's the case right now because of an accident near Empire Blvd/Plank Rd (news article here (https://13wham.com/news/local/crash-on-empire-blvd-knocks-out-power-shuts-down-traffic-plank-road-penfield)) that resulted in localized power outages and all three approaches to Empire/Plank have been closed since mid-morning. Congestion has already started at the usual trouble spots - namely Bay Rd approaching NY 104, the 104 EB exit at Bay, and NY 590 NB (which can be sticky even on a good day).
Unsurprisingly, evening rush hour was gnarly for anyone commuting between Rochester/Irondequoit and points east. By 3PM, NY 590 NB started to back up approaching NY 104, and that backup persisted through rush hour, finally clearing up around 6:30. The significant change in traffic patterns meant that northbound traffic was getting
heavier at Exit 8 instead of lighter.. so instead of traffic clearing up between Exits 7 and 9 as it usually does, it backed right up to I-490 and beyond. The only other local access point to the Bay Bridge is Culver Rd at NY 104, which also backed up on both approaches. For northbound traffic, NY 286 is the next alternate around the closure (and to avoid the congestion on NY 590), so traffic poured through the valley and the overburdened left turn at Creek St backed traffic up all the way to N Landing Rd, a backup which also persisted beyond 6 PM and increased traffic along NY 286 as far east as NY 250 for anyone wanting to avoid the left turn onto Creek (and left onto Qualtrough, which subsequently backed up).
Further north, the NY 104 EB exit at Bay Rd backed up a bit but remained manageable, mostly because the single lane ramp from 590 serves to restrict how much traffic can hit it at once (also the reason why the lane drop beyond Bay Rd doesn't cause congestion, even at peak times). NB Bay Rd, however, backed up significantly due to the protected left at NY 104 WB. With the closure expected to persist, hopefully the signal timing is adjusted overnight because 6-8 cars every 2 minutes isn't going to cut it during morning rush hour (personally, I'd just turn around north of 104, and get on from Bay Rd SB).
Quote from: oscar on September 13, 2023, 04:29:13 PM
... gas ... Ross River ...
BTW, how common is that gas pump setup? Where there are gas pumps built right into the above-ground tank?
Right at the rest area gore and you're crowning
For the Buffalo-Niagara region, obviously anything involving free I-90 in Buffalo creates major headaches for drivers but I think anything involving the Grand Island bridges is definitely in the conversation too. Those bridges can barely handle the traffic they receive in normal conditions, and an accident or lane closure is instantly a major bottleneck, made worse by the lack of alternate routes to/from or around the island.
There was a southbound lane closure (https://www.thruway.ny.gov/news/pressrel/2024/09/2024-09-10-gib-inspection.html) on the South Grand Island Bridge yesterday that I am glad to see was publicized well in advance, because it created a major backup that started before 9AM and lasted well into the evening hours. That merge right before the bridge is gnarly at the best of times, but with only a single lane taking turns at the merge, forget about it. I was passing through on a day trip yesterday (heading north) and when we saw how bad it was in the morning I kept an eye on it through the day and ended up going around the island on US 62 on the return trip. I considered taking the LaSalle Expressway to NY 265, but things on Grand Island were so bad that the LaSalle's eastern terminus and NY 265 in North Tonawanda were backed up too, so I opted for the mostly four-lane US 62. There was some paving work resulting in a lane closure for a few miles which was less than ideal, and traffic was notably heavy in the southbound direction, but it moved pretty well and we reached I-290 without encountering any major delays.
The northbound closure(s) in a couple of weeks shouldn't be as bad for a few reasons. For one, SB traffic is heavier on Sunday due to Falls day trippers and weekend tourism, and for another the backup being on the mainland creates more options for getting around and prevents too much traffic from coalescing around a single point. When you're on the island you're kind of stuck unless you want to go back to the North bridges (and once you pass Exit 19 you're really stuck), but from the mainland side you'll get more traffic finding their way to Exit 17 on local roads or actively choosing to bypass the island via a variety of different routes.
Quote from: webny99 on September 16, 2024, 12:14:32 PMFor the Buffalo-Niagara region, obviously anything involving free I-90 in Buffalo creates major headaches for drivers but I think anything involving the Grand Island bridges is definitely in the conversation too. Those bridges can barely handle the traffic they receive in normal conditions, and an accident or lane closure is instantly a major bottleneck, made worse by the lack of alternate routes to/from or around the island.
There was a southbound lane closure (https://www.thruway.ny.gov/news/pressrel/2024/09/2024-09-10-gib-inspection.html) on the South Grand Island Bridge yesterday that I am glad to see was publicized well in advance, because it created a major backup that started before 9AM and lasted well into the evening hours. That merge right before the bridge is gnarly at the best of times, but with only a single lane taking turns at the merge, forget about it. I was passing through on a day trip yesterday (heading north) and when we saw how bad it was in the morning I kept an eye on it through the day and ended up going around the island on US 62 on the return trip. I considered taking the LaSalle Expressway to NY 265, but things on Grand Island were so bad that the LaSalle's eastern terminus and NY 265 in North Tonawanda were backed up too, so I opted for the mostly four-lane US 62. There was some paving work resulting in a lane closure for a few miles which was less than ideal, and traffic was notably heavy in the southbound direction, but it moved pretty well and we reached I-290 without encountering any major delays.
The northbound closure(s) in a couple of weeks shouldn't be as bad for a few reasons. For one, SB traffic is heavier on Sunday due to Falls day trippers and weekend tourism, and for another the backup being on the mainland creates more options for getting around and prevents too much traffic from coalescing around a single point. When you're on the island you're kind of stuck unless you want to go back to the North bridges (and once you pass Exit 19 you're really stuck), but from the mainland side you'll get more traffic finding their way to Exit 17 on local roads or actively choosing to bypass the island via a variety of different routes.
I wonder if any traffic that went to Canada thought to go down to the Peace Bridge.
I don't know if it's necessarily the "worst," but an overturned tractor-trailer in a work zone on the Beltway this morning led to a fairly extraordinary situation:
https://x.com/VaDOTNOVA/status/1835664159301681459
Quote from: vdeane on September 16, 2024, 12:42:40 PMwonder if any traffic that went to Canada thought to go down to the Peace Bridge.
Oh, absolutely. That was my first thought too until we saw the VMS on the QEW that said there was a 90-minute car delay at Fort Erie. That was no doubt caused or at least exacerbated by traffic from Canada seeking an alternate to I-190.
At that point, we decided to just get across the border first and figure it out from there (which was great because I was then able to clinch NY 182 and get some new mileage on US 62 out of it).
A section of French road N134 just South of Urdos was washed away last week, meaning the Somport pass is currently impassable. The same happened on A-138 North of Bielsa on the Spanish side, also cutting the Bielsa-Aragnouet tunnel. That leaves the Portalet pass as the only route into France for me. It's worse for trucks, since it isn't suitable for them either, forcing them to detour via Vielha or Irun.
In Wisconsin, the major freeway interchanges in Milwaukee and elsewhere would certainly qualify as such choke points, but there are enough roadways and separation between them at each junction that a crash on one will not take out the entire intechages. Out state, the I-41 Oshkosh Causeway (Big Lake Butte des Morts crossing) has historically had weather related crash closures. Since Oshkosh city streets were unable to handle the detour traffic and there are no other usable alternate routings, a couple of decades ago WisDOT was seriously looking at an option of building a shore-to-shore bridge so that snow could harmlessly blow under the highway. Blowing snow has not been a problem there since the highway's six lane rebuild in the very early 2010s.
Mike
Well, this morning in "scenic" Glenwood Canyon, a semi traveling westbound on I-70 went off the elevated westbound lanes landing on at least one vehicle heading eastbound on the lower lanes.
Glenwood Canyon will be closed all day with a 100 mile plus detour via Craig and Steamboat Springs adding about 3 hours to the drive between Denver and Grand Junction.
For those who have traveled the I-70 stretch thru the canyon, I believe the guardrails along the river and elevated sections are still the original thin rails above the short concrete walls.
Many sections of the thin single rail and supports are starting to rust out and erode. This is likely one of the reasons why vehicles have jumped the westbound guardrails/walls and crashed onto the lower eastbound roadway.
Apparantly, there is no rush to upgrade/rebuild/fortify these substandard "protective" barriers. Then you have crashes that continue toclose the canyon all day with long detours in both directions.
Quote from: thenetwork on September 17, 2024, 02:36:04 PMWell, this morning in "scenic" Glenwood Canyon, a semi traveling westbound on I-70 went off the elevated westbound lanes landing on at least one vehicle heading eastbound on the lower lanes.
Glenwood Canyon will be closed all day with a 100 mile plus detour via Craig and Steamboat Springs adding about 3 hours to the drive between Denver and Grand Junction.
Wow. Is taking CO 13 north to US 40 a viable option rather than heading south on CO 82 (which is bound to be congested)?
Quote from: thenetwork on September 17, 2024, 02:36:04 PMWell, this morning in "scenic" Glenwood Canyon, a semi traveling westbound on I-70 went off the elevated westbound lanes landing on at least one vehicle heading eastbound on the lower lanes.
Glenwood Canyon will be closed all day with a 100 mile plus detour via Craig and Steamboat Springs adding about 3 hours to the drive between Denver and Grand Junction.
For those who have traveled the I-70 stretch thru the canyon, I believe the guardrails along the river and elevated sections are still the original thin rails above the short concrete walls.
Many sections of the thin single rail and supports are starting to rust out and erode. This is likely one of the reasons why vehicles have jumped the westbound guardrails/walls and crashed onto the lower eastbound roadway.
Apparantly, there is no rush to upgrade/rebuild/fortify these substandard "protective" barriers. Then you have crashes that continue toclose the canyon all day with long detours in both directions.
One of my best friends who was driving home to Vegas chose to leave my house at 4 AM today, so happy he got through before the 3 hour detour.
Quote from: webny99 on September 17, 2024, 03:01:01 PMQuote from: thenetwork on September 17, 2024, 02:36:04 PMWell, this morning in "scenic" Glenwood Canyon, a semi traveling westbound on I-70 went off the elevated westbound lanes landing on at least one vehicle heading eastbound on the lower lanes.
Glenwood Canyon will be closed all day with a 100 mile plus detour via Craig and Steamboat Springs adding about 3 hours to the drive between Denver and Grand Junction.
Wow. Is taking CO 13 north to US 40 a viable option rather than heading south on CO 82 (which is bound to be congested)?
That is the standard detour. Normally there's also taking US50, but since that's closed just west of Gunnison, that's out too.
Edit - The US50 is out for Trucks. They have to take CO149->Gunnison County 26
Highway 82 over independence pass is an alternative..if you are a short vehicle, ad anything over 35 feet is prohibited.
The US50 alternate route via Gunnison is also viable, but there's weight and length limited restrictions over the Blue Mesa bridge. Not sure if the pilot car/alternating traffic is now 24/7 yet.
When all is said and done US 40 is the best route alternative, though Steamboat is a pain in the @$$ to drive through when the detour is in effect.
Quote from: JayhawkCO on September 17, 2024, 03:04:16 PMQuotes taking CO 13 north to US 40 a viable option rather than heading south on CO 82 (which is bound to be congested)?
That is the standard detour. Normally there's also taking US50, but since that's closed just west of Gunnison, that's out too.
It looked like the worst congestion resulting from the closure was on I-70 exiting to CO 82 in Glenwood Springs and on CO 82 in the Aspen area, so I just kind of assumed that was the standard detour. I can see though why it's not an option for trucks.
Quote from: webny99 on September 17, 2024, 04:24:00 PMQuote from: JayhawkCO on September 17, 2024, 03:04:16 PMQuotes taking CO 13 north to US 40 a viable option rather than heading south on CO 82 (which is bound to be congested)?
That is the standard detour. Normally there's also taking US50, but since that's closed just west of Gunnison, that's out too.
It looked like the worst congestion resulting from the closure was on I-70 exiting to CO 82 in Glenwood Springs and on CO 82 in the Aspen area, so I just kind of assumed that was the standard detour. I can see though why it's not an option for trucks.
Well, it also depends on where you are when the canyon is closed. If you're past Silverthorne (coming from Denver), you're not likely to track back to take the northern route.
From Silverthorne to Rifle right now going CO9->US40->CO13, GMaps is showing 4h2m, and going over Independence Pass I-70->CO91->US24->CO82->I-70 is 3h45m. Normally, Silverthorne to Rifle is about 1h45m.
If trucks were even allowed over Independence Pass, for the four possible routings (including the US50 routing they can't take), I'd rank them as follows for "truck friendliness":
1) Eisenhower Tunnel (by far the easiest)
2) Muddy Pass/Rabbit Ears Pass (US40)
3) Monarch Pass (US50)
4) Independence Pass (CO82)
For West Virginia, I-68 between Exits #10 (WV 43/Cheat Lake) and #15 (Coopers Rock) is probably the worst place for a road closure. I-68 was built on top of former WV 73 through here. There is a parallel county route, but trucks are banned and part of it is gravel on a steep slope that you often need something with high ground clearance to make it through.
For through traffic heading into Maryland, the best option is to take WV/PA 43 north to Uniontown, PA and then US 40 east to Keysers Ridge, MD. This adds about 14 miles and 30 minutes to the trip. The other alternative, staying in WV, is WV 7 to WV 26 via Kingwood which adds 25 miles and 40 minutes.
Quote from: 1995hoo on September 16, 2024, 12:46:27 PMI don't know if it's necessarily the "worst," but an overturned tractor-trailer in a work zone on the Beltway this morning led to a fairly extraordinary situation:
https://x.com/VaDOTNOVA/status/1835664159301681459
It was a freaking box truck, not tractor trailer. I got tired of screaming at the Ch5 reporter she's an idiot. It did a fine job of blocking the 4 travel lanes.
Quote from: JayhawkCO on September 17, 2024, 04:31:26 PMQuote from: webny99 on September 17, 2024, 04:24:00 PMQuote from: JayhawkCO on September 17, 2024, 03:04:16 PMQuotes taking CO 13 north to US 40 a viable option rather than heading south on CO 82 (which is bound to be congested)?
That is the standard detour. Normally there's also taking US50, but since that's closed just west of Gunnison, that's out too.
It looked like the worst congestion resulting from the closure was on I-70 exiting to CO 82 in Glenwood Springs and on CO 82 in the Aspen area, so I just kind of assumed that was the standard detour. I can see though why it's not an option for trucks.
Well, it also depends on where you are when the canyon is closed. If you're past Silverthorne (coming from Denver), you're not likely to track back to take the northern route.
From Silverthorne to Rifle right now going CO9->US40->CO13, GMaps is showing 4h2m, and going over Independence Pass I-70->CO91->US24->CO82->I-70 is 3h45m. Normally, Silverthorne to Rifle is about 1h45m.
If trucks were even allowed over Independence Pass, for the four possible routings (including the US50 routing they can't take), I'd rank them as follows for "truck friendliness":
1) Eisenhower Tunnel (by far the easiest)
2) Muddy Pass/Rabbit Ears Pass (US40)
3) Monarch Pass (US50)
4) Independence Pass (CO82)
Co-82 over Independence Pass is a semi-decent detour "In Season" which is usually between Memorial Day and the end of September. 82 is closed east of Aspen once the snow starts flying.
The problem with CO-82 as a detour is that when you get to the Aspen/Snowmass ski area, the 4-lane divided highway goes down to 2 lanes almost into downtown Aspen and is a regular choke point. One on the main drag in Aspen, there are 2 lanes in each direction, but the traffic lights are purposely mis-timed to keep the traffic speeds low. After a few zig-zags thru Aspen, there are at least two single lane areas east of town then several tight hairpins either side of Indy Pass.
At least the northern detour is, for the most part, long stretches of 55+ MPH zones. You CAN bypass Steamboat Springs altogether by taking CR-27 aka the 20-something mile cutoff road between Hayden and Oak Creek. Once in Oak Creek, take CO-131 back to I-70 at Wolcott. 131 is a slow, curvy road, but usually not as busy as US-40/CO-9 to Silverthorne.
Quote from: thenetwork on September 17, 2024, 02:36:04 PMWell, this morning in "scenic" Glenwood Canyon, a semi traveling westbound on I-70 went off the elevated westbound lanes landing on at least one vehicle heading eastbound on the lower lanes.
Glenwood Canyon will be closed all day with a 100 mile plus detour via Craig and Steamboat Springs adding about 3 hours to the drive between Denver and Grand Junction.
For those who have traveled the I-70 stretch thru the canyon, I believe the guardrails along the river and elevated sections are still the original thin rails above the short concrete walls.
Many sections of the thin single rail and supports are starting to rust out and erode. This is likely one of the reasons why vehicles have jumped the westbound guardrails/walls and crashed onto the lower eastbound roadway.
Apparantly, there is no rush to upgrade/rebuild/fortify these substandard "protective" barriers. Then you have crashes that continue toclose the canyon all day with long detours in both directions.
Hm. I was next to a semi on the Thruway today east of Waterloo somewhere that almost went off the road. Driver was totally inattentive and on his phone.
And earlier, a semi tailgated me through a work zone on I-81. As we passed the reassurance 45 mph work zone speed limit signs, I pointed at the signs and he backed off.
What an amazing time of lousy semi drivers we live in.
Quote from: JayhawkCO on September 17, 2024, 04:31:26 PMIf trucks were even allowed over Independence Pass, for the four possible routings (including the US50 routing they can't take), I'd rank them as follows for "truck friendliness":
1) Eisenhower Tunnel (by far the easiest)
2) Muddy Pass/Rabbit Ears Pass (US40)
3) Monarch Pass (US50)
4) Independence Pass (CO82)
With the current closure being further west though, wouldn't it still be possible to use the Eisenhower tunnel and CO 9 or CO 131 to avoid the other three passes altogether?
Quote from: thenetwork on September 17, 2024, 08:55:19 PMCo-82 over Independence Pass is a semi-decent detour "In Season" which is usually between Memorial Day and the end of September. 82 is closed east of Aspen once the snow starts flying.
The problem with CO-82 as a detour is that when you get to the Aspen/Snowmass ski area, the 4-lane divided highway goes down to 2 lanes almost into downtown Aspen and is a regular choke point. One on the main drag in Aspen, there are 2 lanes in each direction, but the traffic lights are purposely mis-timed to keep the traffic speeds low. After a few zig-zags thru Aspen, there are at least two single lane areas east of town then several tight hairpins either side of Indy Pass.
I am actually impressed at how much of CO 82
is four lanes west of Aspen. However it makes more sense when you consider that there are no other routes into Aspen for much of the year, including throughout ski season.
It's also surprisingly not that much longer time-wise from Denver to go through Glenwood Springs even when Independence Pass is open, and despite being much longer distance it's probably a much easier drive.
Quote from: thenetwork on September 17, 2024, 08:55:19 PMAt least the northern detour is, for the most part, long stretches of 55+ MPH zones. You CAN bypass Steamboat Springs altogether by taking CR-27 aka the 20-something mile cutoff road between Hayden and Oak Creek. Once in Oak Creek, take CO-131 back to I-70 at Wolcott. 131 is a slow, curvy road, but usually not as busy as US-40/CO-9 to Silverthorne.
Is this route suitable for trucks or are they better off sticking to 40?
And would CO 134 be an option, e.g. if there was an I-70 closure east of Wolcott?
Quote from: davewiecking on September 17, 2024, 08:43:40 PMIt was a freaking box truck, not tractor trailer. I got tired of screaming at the Ch5 reporter she's an idiot. It did a fine job of blocking the 4 travel lanes.
I was just going by what I heard on the radio. The image in that tweet was grainy enough that I had no reason to dispute that they said. Bad situation regardless of the type of vehicle.
Quote from: webny99 on September 18, 2024, 08:31:37 AMQuote from: JayhawkCO on September 17, 2024, 04:31:26 PMIf trucks were even allowed over Independence Pass, for the four possible routings (including the US50 routing they can't take), I'd rank them as follows for "truck friendliness":
1) Eisenhower Tunnel (by far the easiest)
2) Muddy Pass/Rabbit Ears Pass (US40)
3) Monarch Pass (US50)
4) Independence Pass (CO82)
With the current closure being further west though, wouldn't it still be possible to use the Eisenhower tunnel and CO 9 or CO 131 to avoid the other three passes altogether?
For CO9, you'd still travel over Muddy/Rabbit Ears Pass.
CO131 is a slow, windy road as noted up thread and it's more mileage.
And now there's a rockslide shutting down US40 between Craig and Steamboat Springs making that route impassable, too.
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/GXwynOTW0AA5zKC?format=jpg&name=large)
Inbound Lincoln tunnel. A few days ago the center tube was closed due to a motorcycle crash investigation and then one lane in the south tube was also blocked due to a bus crash. This led to the XBL and 3 general traffic lanes all going into one lane. Traffic was backed up onto the turnpike and back to East Rutherford on route 3. Buses started dropping off at Newark Penn and Secaucus just to get people into the city.
Quote from: webny99 on September 18, 2024, 08:31:37 AMQuote from: JayhawkCO on September 17, 2024, 04:31:26 PMIf trucks were even allowed over Independence Pass, for the four possible routings (including the US50 routing they can't take), I'd rank them as follows for "truck friendliness":
1) Eisenhower Tunnel (by far the easiest)
2) Muddy Pass/Rabbit Ears Pass (US40)
3) Monarch Pass (US50)
4) Independence Pass (CO82)
With the current closure being further west though, wouldn't it still be possible to use the Eisenhower tunnel and CO 9 or CO 131 to avoid the other three passes altogether?
If you use CO-131, you skip Rabbit Ears Pass, but you gain Vail Pass which can also be notoriously brutal during inclement weather.
QuoteI am actually impressed at how much of CO 82 is four lanes west of Aspen. However it makes more sense when you consider that there are no other routes into Aspen for much of the year, including throughout ski season.
Pretty much rhe majority of people who work in Aspen cannot afford to LIVE in Aspen. So most commute to/from Glenwood. Pretty much the unofficial rule is whatever city you work out of in the Roaring Fork Valley and Garfield County, you can only afford to live in an area 3-4 towns west along 82 or 70.
RFTA is the largest rural bus system connecting Aspen to as far away as Rifle. They also are used by a lot of commuters to/From Aspen.
Quote from: JayhawkCO on September 18, 2024, 12:38:38 PMAnd now there's a rockslide shutting down US40 between Craig and Steamboat Springs making that route impassable, too.
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/GXwynOTW0AA5zKC?format=jpg&name=large)
Geologists like the rocks.
Quote from: JayhawkCO on September 18, 2024, 12:38:38 PMAnd now there's a rockslide shutting down US40 between Craig and Steamboat Springs making that route impassable, too.
Wow. This reminds me of when a short section of then-N-330 (now the Southbound lanes of A-23) near the top of Monrepos Pass was washed away. At one point during that closure a rockslide also closed off the nearest alternate route (A-132 to the West) for some hours, meaning quite a detour if one wanted to go from Huesca and points South to Sabiñanigo, Jaca and points North (East to A-138 or West to A-127).
Quote from: JayhawkCO on September 18, 2024, 09:14:43 AMQuoteWith the current closure being further west though, wouldn't it still be possible to use the Eisenhower tunnel and CO 9 or CO 131 to avoid the other three passes altogether?
For CO9, you'd still travel over Muddy/Rabbit Ears Pass.
Unless you use CO 134, though I assume that has similar issues and would still require using part of 131.
Quote from: webny99 on September 19, 2024, 09:23:20 AMQuote from: JayhawkCO on September 18, 2024, 09:14:43 AMQuoteWith the current closure being further west though, wouldn't it still be possible to use the Eisenhower tunnel and CO 9 or CO 131 to avoid the other three passes altogether?
For CO9, you'd still travel over Muddy/Rabbit Ears Pass.
Unless you use CO 134, though I assume that has similar issues and would still require using part of 131.
CO134 is just as windy (if not more) than CO131 and goes over Gore Pass. Also adds more mileage.
Quote from: Rothman on September 18, 2024, 09:21:34 PMQuote from: JayhawkCO on September 18, 2024, 12:38:38 PMAnd now there's a rockslide shutting down US40 between Craig and Steamboat Springs making that route impassable, too.
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/GXwynOTW0AA5zKC?format=jpg&name=large)
Geologists like the rocks.
Was a coyote found under that rock?
On a more serious note, how often to long-distance drivers avoid western Colorado entirely (using I-80 and possibly I-25 instead or even a more southerly routing) due to major road and pass closures?
Mike
Quote from: JayhawkCO on September 19, 2024, 10:25:45 AMQuote from: webny99 on September 19, 2024, 09:23:20 AMQuote from: JayhawkCO on September 18, 2024, 09:14:43 AMQuoteWith the current closure being further west though, wouldn't it still be possible to use the Eisenhower tunnel and CO 9 or CO 131 to avoid the other three passes altogether?
For CO9, you'd still travel over Muddy/Rabbit Ears Pass.
Unless you use CO 134, though I assume that has similar issues and would still require using part of 131.
CO134 is just as windy (if not more) than CO131 and goes over Gore Pass. Also adds more mileage.
It took me a few seconds, but I assume you mean CO 1
84 that runs between Kremmling and Oak Creek. Haven't been down that road yet, but the maps look like 184 is a windy road as a narrower road than US-40.
BTW, It sounds like the US 40 rockslide is cleared as CDOT is closing the EB I-70 thru Glenwood Canyon AGAIN for several hours today to finish cleaning up Monday's debacle and CDOT said the detour (as usual) will be via US 40 via Steamboat.
Quote from: thenetwork on September 19, 2024, 11:48:24 AMQuoteCO134 is just as windy (if not more) than CO131 and goes over Gore Pass. Also adds more mileage.
It took me a few seconds, but I assume you mean CO 184 that runs between Kremmling and Oak Creek. Haven't been down that road yet, but the maps look like 184 is a windy road as a narrower road than US-40.
I think it is CO 134, at least it's marked as such on Google Maps.
Quote from: webny99 on September 19, 2024, 12:10:05 PMQuote from: thenetwork on September 19, 2024, 11:48:24 AMQuoteCO134 is just as windy (if not more) than CO131 and goes over Gore Pass. Also adds more mileage.
It took me a few seconds, but I assume you mean CO 184 that runs between Kremmling and Oak Creek. Haven't been down that road yet, but the maps look like 184 is a windy road as a narrower road than US-40.
I think it is CO 134, at least it's marked as such on Google Maps.
My bad, it is highway 134. Highway 184 is down by the 4 corners. There's too many 100-series routes in Western Colorado, I get them confused all the time.
And I have clinched CO‐184 numerous times in my last job!
Quote from: webny99 on June 21, 2023, 11:14:40 PMThat concludes my case that any incident occurring on or near the Bay Bridge has potential to cause greater traffic disruption than an equivalent incident at any other location in the Rochester region.
I'm not entirely changing my opinion here, but a pair of incidents last night and this morning served as a fresh reminder that anything involving NY 590 between Exits 5 and 7 also creates MAJOR issues.
An incident on NY 590 southbound near Exit 6 last night had southbound (non-peak) traffic backed up to NY 104 at one point, a phenomenon typically only seen during the morning rush hour. Rubbernecking also had NY 590
northbound backing all the way up onto the ramp from I-390, which is extremely rare, plus I-490 backed up westbound to beyond Exit 24 and eastbound all the way to downtown.
That had me wondering how bad things could become if something similar happened during the morning rush hour, and it looks like we're about to find out. A major incident just south of Exit 7 had things backed up to NY 104 by 7:15, which is typically pre-morning rush around here, and there's already a 50-minute delay before we even get to the peak of rush hour. That's not to mention the local roads: Winton is backed up over the NY 590 overpass which I don't believe I've ever seen in my life, and Blossom Rd is backed up to Landing Rd, threatening to back up right into the valley. Creek St is also backed up for about a mile approaching Browncroft. So far, things look a bit more manageable further north, with no visible impacts on Bay Rd, and Culver Rd looking notably slow but not overwhelmingly so.
My nominee is in Oakland, California:
QuoteA portion of the I-80 eastbound to I-580 eastbound connector road collapsed onto the connector road between westbound I-80 and southbound I-880,
Pictures and fuller story:
https://www.fhwa.dot.gov/publications/focus/07jul/01.cfm
A gasoline tanker truck was in an accident and exploded, softening the steel and collapsing the roadway above it.