Does Las Vegas set the record for the largest city without any cancelled freeways?
Probably. Las Vegas is probably followed closely by Fresno, which never cancelled any of its adopted freeway routes.
How many canceled freeways in OKC besides Sooner Freeway? Dallas? Phoenix? Orlando? I love Vegas. It's my favorite city.
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on June 21, 2023, 11:50:51 PM
How many canceled freeways in OKC besides Sooner Freeway? Dallas? Phoenix? Orlando? I love Vegas. It's my favorite city.
Dallas has a ton of them
(https://i.imgur.com/kZyWeYQ.png)
Most of these were never more than lines on a map, but a few, like the Trinity River Tollway and Fort Worth Loop did make it pretty far in the planning process.
(https://i.imgur.com/MbRoN8k.jpg)
Phoenix's Paradise Parkway also never made it, leaving the 10 mile gap between Loop 101 and I-10.
I don't know about Orlando.
The most obvious reason for LV's lack of cancellations is that it only became big enough to warrant freeways besides I-15 in the 1990s, long after NEPA, discouraging NDOT from even considering building freeways that would create large environmental or social impacts. As it happens, they did briefly consider making 215 a full loop in the 90s, but quickly ruled it out (https://www.reviewjournal.com/news/news-columns/road-warrior/215-beltway-in-las-vegas-was-never-planned-as-a-full-loop/)
QuoteClark County officials studied several route options for the Beltway during the late 1990s, but Kulin said that this particular segment was never designed nor formally planned. The missing link was always part of the plan – and still is.
"There would have been significant impacts on existing homes and businesses, as adding a highway through that area would have required a significant amount of eminent domain procedures," Kulin said.
Weirdly unmentioned in that article is the imposing barrier that is Nellis AFB.
Phoenix cancelled the Paradise Parkway (SR 317/SR50), downgraded the Grand Avenue Corridor (us 60) from a freeway to an expressway and cancelled and downgraded the Sky Harbor Expressway (SR 153) to an urban arterial. The original route of I-10 through Phoenix via the Buckeye Corridor (I-10; SR 280) has been revived through the new Rio Salado Freeway (SR 30) from SR 85 east through the I-17 Durango Curve. In Phoenix, it took staling and cancellation to make for a complete urban freeway system.
Orlando doesn't really have any true cancellations. One of the worst street grids in the country and toll operator money did a lot ensuring most non-I-4 stuff got built.
Fresno kind of has an unbuilt freeway/expressway if you count the gap in CA 65. Granted, it never was planned to touch the Fresno city limits. CA 65 was planned to pass near the eastern limit of modern Clovis.
I knew about the canceled Phoenix Paradise parkway but didn't know about all of the canceled Dallas freeways. That is interesting. I do wish the Trinity Tollway would have been built but Dallas had a good freeway network. What about Missouri cities? STL and Kansas City both have an amazing freeway network.
Nevada as a whole doesn't have much in the way of "canceled freeways," but few were planned to begin with compared to other states and some of the plans are relatively recent. I-11 is still officially active by Congressional mandate (even if that has no chance in hell at being finished this century). Maybe you could say I-70, but that never got past rough corridor proposals. I-580 was built as planned apart from the southern interchange, even if construction took 45 years. I want to say the currently-unconstructed but in-advanced planning 395-445 connector is a relatively new proposal.
Quote from: kernals12 on June 22, 2023, 12:06:34 AM
The most obvious reason for LV's lack of cancellations is that it only became big enough to warrant freeways besides I-15 in the 1990s, long after NEPA, discouraging NDOT from even considering building freeways that would create large environmental or social impacts. As it happens, they did briefly consider making 215 a full loop in the 90s, but quickly ruled it out (https://www.reviewjournal.com/news/news-columns/road-warrior/215-beltway-in-las-vegas-was-never-planned-as-a-full-loop/)
QuoteClark County officials studied several route options for the Beltway during the late 1990s, but Kulin said that this particular segment was never designed nor formally planned. The missing link was always part of the plan – and still is.
"There would have been significant impacts on existing homes and businesses, as adding a highway through that area would have required a significant amount of eminent domain procedures," Kulin said.
Weirdly unmentioned in that article is the imposing barrier that is Nellis AFB.
I would note that the existing US 95 freeway was planned and mostly constructed well before the 1990s. From I-15 west to the Rainbow Blvd interchange was planned (as the "Las Vegas Expressway") in the late 1960s and was complete by 1978, with construction north from Rainbow to Rancho Drive (now US 95 Business) built as expressway by 1980 and converted to freeway in the late 1980s. The I-515 portion east of Las Vegas Blvd was planned in the 1970s, and opened piecemeal during the 1980s with full freeway down to what is now the I-215 interchange by 1990 (AASHTO approval for the I-515 designation was first granted in 1976 and extended to Railroad Pass in 1984).
There was some kind of surface-level feasibility study for an eastern beltway leg in the early 2000s, after planning for the rest of the 215 was mostly complete and parts were built or under construction. (I came across this document online or through a file server some time ago, but unfortunately didn't save it and I haven't been able to find it again.) IIRC, much of the concept either overlapped Nellis Blvd or was close to it–and I think with that, passed west of most of the Nellis AFB. However, the ROW and construction costs at the concept stage were pegged at over a billion dollars at the time, so it was deemed unfeasible. Note that the Vegas valley built out east from the downtown core first before going other directions such that an eastern beltway would blaze miles through fully developed land–by contrast, much of the 215 beltway alignment (particularly the county portions) was planned through then-undeveloped land.
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on June 22, 2023, 12:30:42 AM
I knew about the canceled Phoenix Paradise parkway but didn't know about all of the canceled Dallas freeways. That is interesting. I do wish the Trinity Tollway would have been built but Dallas had a good freeway network. What about Missouri cities? STL and Kansas City both have an amazing freeway network.
St Louis has one of the most well-known cancelled freeways, I-755 (https://www.aaroads.com/guides/mo-755/), which would have connected the I-44/55 interchange with the recently removed stub just west of Union Station and continued north to the McKinley Bridge. Honestly, it would have been much better for city traffic had that been built rather than the current freeway which connects the two. There would be a full interchange where the freeways meet downtown rather than the partial one at the west end of the Poplar Street Bridge and the riverbank attractions like the Arch and Laclede's Landing wouldn't be separated from the downtown. It would have been fairly simple to build the Stan Span a bit further north and run a freeway along the east riverbank.
Kansas City's cancelled freeway is even more notorious, US 71 through the south side. IMO, KC's system is overbuilt with the north side of the downtown loop being redundant except when an accident closes I-670.
Had Phoenix's Paradise Parkway been constructed, how well do any of you think it would have relieved congestion on Interstate 10? Back to Las Vegas, would the formerly proposed Interstate 11 eastern bypass alternative qualify as a cancelled freeway, since it never got off the drawing board?
Quote from: The Ghostbuster on June 22, 2023, 01:19:42 PM
Had Phoenix's Paradise Parkway been constructed, how well do any of you think it would have relieved congestion on Interstate 10? Back to Las Vegas, would the formerly proposed Interstate 11 eastern bypass alternative qualify as a cancelled freeway, since it never got off the drawing board?
The usefulness of the Paradise Parkway would've been severely limited since it wouldn't go east of SR 51. The limited benefits compared to the extremely high cost (hundreds of homes in Glendale would've needed to be demolished) are why it was cancelled.
The I-11 Eastern Bypass was never considered seriously enough for me to say it was "cancelled".
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on June 21, 2023, 11:50:51 PM
How many canceled freeways in OKC besides Sooner Freeway?
Depends on whether the freeway as ever anything more than a map maker's dream. At one point, the Northwest Expressway was supposed to be converted to a freeway once the growth reached it. You still see evidence of that at NW 63rd, Meridian, and MacArthur if you know where to look. ODOT sold off the land reserved for interchanges at those arterial crossings in the late 80's. It's too bad as getting anywhere northwest of Integris Hospital is a nightmare.
Kansas City had a lot more on the docket that never got built than just "US 71". This map (https://www.linecreekloudmouth.com/files/mid-1950s-kansas-city-freeway-planning-map2.pdf) shows what was planned at the start of the Interstate system and shows quite a few gems, including a relocated US 24, a MO 210 freeway, "MO 735", "MO 769", and others. This also shows what the ghost ramps and bridges at the I-70 curves east of downtown were intended for.
Quote from: kernals12 on June 22, 2023, 01:26:25 PM
Quote from: The Ghostbuster on June 22, 2023, 01:19:42 PM
Had Phoenix's Paradise Parkway been constructed, how well do any of you think it would have relieved congestion on Interstate 10? Back to Las Vegas, would the formerly proposed Interstate 11 eastern bypass alternative qualify as a cancelled freeway, since it never got off the drawing board?
The usefulness of the Paradise Parkway would've been severely limited since it wouldn't go east of SR 51. The limited benefits compared to the extremely high cost (hundreds of homes in Glendale would've needed to be demolished) are why it was cancelled.
The I-11 Eastern Bypass was never considered seriously enough for me to say it was "cancelled".
There probably wasn't much of a need east of AZ 51 anyways. I used to drive Lincoln through Paradise Valley everyday and that road was never inordinately busy. I used to use it as a back way to get to downtown Scottsdale when I worked there.
Chicago has not one, but two, cancelled I-494s (https://www.interstate-guide.com/i-494-il/)! The best-known one is the Crosstown Expressway, and there was also the LSD freeway upgrade that later got renumbered to I-694.
Since this thread has gone all over the place, and not just pertaining to the Pacific Southwest, would it be possible to move this thread to General Highway Talk?
Quote from: The Ghostbuster on June 23, 2023, 09:58:09 PM
Since this thread has gone all over the place, and not just pertaining to the Pacific Southwest, would it be possible to move this thread to General Highway Talk?
Agreed on that, because everybody else (including myself) has named places outside the region where freeway cancellations have and have not taken place.
Done! –Roadfro
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on June 21, 2023, 11:50:51 PM
How many canceled freeways in OKC besides Sooner Freeway? Dallas? Phoenix? Orlando? I love Vegas. It's my favorite city.
Orlando has one, FL529, a.k.a. the Central Connector. It was proposed in the late 80s to early 90s as toll road that would run from FL528 at the Orange Ave. overpass to I-4 near the Michigan St. and Kaley Ave. interchanges. The last mile or so would have been on surface streets. The purpose was to provide a more direct link between downtown and the airport, but it would have cut through long-established residential areas. It was eventually cancelled due to local opposition.
Quote from: skluth on June 22, 2023, 11:14:36 AM
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on June 22, 2023, 12:30:42 AM
I knew about the canceled Phoenix Paradise parkway but didn't know about all of the canceled Dallas freeways. That is interesting. I do wish the Trinity Tollway would have been built but Dallas had a good freeway network. What about Missouri cities? STL and Kansas City both have an amazing freeway network.
St Louis has one of the most well-known cancelled freeways, I-755 (https://www.aaroads.com/guides/mo-755/), which would have connected the I-44/55 interchange with the recently removed stub just west of Union Station and continued north to the McKinley Bridge. Honestly, it would have been much better for city traffic had that been built rather than the current freeway which connects the two. There would be a full interchange where the freeways meet downtown rather than the partial one at the west end of the Poplar Street Bridge and the riverbank attractions like the Arch and Laclede's Landing wouldn't be separated from the downtown. It would have been fairly simple to build the Stan Span a bit further north and run a freeway along the east riverbank.
And now a brand new soccer stadium sits on the former 755 stub! There also used to be a stub along I-70 where it was to meet 755 also, if memory serves, but is now gone with previous reconstruction projects
Also STL cancelled was I-170 south of I-64 - Hence why 170 ends (strangely) at a Target store/shopping center
Boston has plenty of them. I-695 was the proposed Inner Belt and of course I-95 through Boston. Also US 3 was supposed to continue further past Burlington. There’s still leftover ramps where they were supposed to continue.
Quote from: ilpt4u on June 25, 2023, 11:43:47 PM
Quote from: skluth on June 22, 2023, 11:14:36 AM
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on June 22, 2023, 12:30:42 AM
I knew about the canceled Phoenix Paradise parkway but didn't know about all of the canceled Dallas freeways. That is interesting. I do wish the Trinity Tollway would have been built but Dallas had a good freeway network. What about Missouri cities? STL and Kansas City both have an amazing freeway network.
St Louis has one of the most well-known cancelled freeways, I-755 (https://www.aaroads.com/guides/mo-755/), which would have connected the I-44/55 interchange with the recently removed stub just west of Union Station and continued north to the McKinley Bridge. Honestly, it would have been much better for city traffic had that been built rather than the current freeway which connects the two. There would be a full interchange where the freeways meet downtown rather than the partial one at the west end of the Poplar Street Bridge and the riverbank attractions like the Arch and Laclede's Landing wouldn't be separated from the downtown. It would have been fairly simple to build the Stan Span a bit further north and run a freeway along the east riverbank.
And now a brand new soccer stadium sits on the former 755 stub! There also used to be a stub along I-70 where it was to meet 755 also, if memory serves, but is now gone with previous reconstruction projects
Also STL cancelled was I-170 south of I-64 - Hence why 170 ends (strangely) at a Target store/shopping center
There was never a stub at I-70/McKinley Bridge though there is a fair amount of empty land that was leveled when the plan was active. The weird I-44/55/Truman Blvd interchange has ghost ramps. Here's a recent article (https://nextstl.com/2015/05/the-life-and-death-of-the-american-urban-interstate-as-told-by-st-louis-i-755/) about the highway. I haven't read it yet but other articles on this site have been accurate.
Of the 3 largest Ohio Cities, I can't think of any cancelled freeways in Columbus, which is the largest city in Ohio by city limits population. Cleveland's most well-known example is I-490 (back then, I-290) east of its current end to connect with I-271. Cincinnati has a couple, including the Taft Freeway (along Taft Rd, cuts through the University of Cincinnati area), Colerain Freeway (along US 27), and one along the Western Hills Viaduct and Queen City Ave.
I think it is somewhat useful to distinguish between cities with "canceled freeways" which were essentially alternatives to freeways that were completed (especially as a result of building plans widely separated in time) versus cities with canceled freeways which did not have any meaningful alternatives built either.
The former is perhaps more indicative of say DFW while the latter is of course notorious in many places (such as DC for example).
Harrisburg has two as far as I'm aware. The first one is the East Shore Expressway, of which no plan exists online unfortunately, but there is a rough description of its proposed route here: https://harrisburg.pahighways.com/expressways/cancelled/esexpressway.html (https://harrisburg.pahighways.com/expressways/cancelled/esexpressway.html)
The second is the West Shore Expressway, partly shown in this plan:
Quote from: sbeaver44 on May 14, 2013, 11:40:20 AM
I have in my possession (until I return it to the Library today) the 1970 East Pennsboro Township plan which includes a map of the proposed expressway:
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ffarm8.staticflickr.com%2F7287%2F8737731433_bca4882f66_c.jpg&hash=7b19b74d2b9f188e8df5a2e33ef6dee685c4f101) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/seetheroads/8737731433/)
West Shore Expressway_Page_3 (http://www.flickr.com/photos/seetheroads/8737731433/) by WestPA31 (http://www.flickr.com/people/seetheroads/), on Flickr
Wow would this have been interesting if built.
Both would've been connectors between I-81 and I-83, I believe.
A small sampling of MSP canned freeways:
-I-335
-Cedar Avenue north of present-day TH 62
-a southwest/western extension of TH 280 (extra bridges at I-94 reflecting this were removed in the 1980s)
-Ayd Mill Road in St. Paul (the "missing connection" between northbound I-35E and westbound I-94)
-TH 62 west of I-494 in Eden Prairie
-I believe there were plans for something along former TH 7 east of TH 100 to intersect I-94 roughly where the Lowry Hill Tunnel is in Minneapolis
And more. Some have observed capacity issues on existing freeways seem to exist because MDH/MnDOT was building them with the cancelled freeways in mind.
Quote from: TheHighwayMan394 on June 26, 2023, 03:53:41 PM
A small sampling of MSP canned freeways:
-I-335
-Cedar Avenue north of present-day TH 62
-a southwest/western extension of TH 280 (extra bridges at I-94 reflecting this were removed in the 1980s)
-Ayd Mill Road in St. Paul (the "missing connection" between northbound I-35E and westbound I-94)
-TH 62 west of I-494 in Eden Prairie
-I believe there were plans for something along former TH 7 east of TH 100 to intersect I-94 roughly where the Lowry Hill Tunnel is in Minneapolis
And more. Some have observed capacity issues on existing freeways seem to exist because MDH/MnDOT was building them with the cancelled freeways in mind.
There was also a proposed MN 55 freeway to be an upgrade of Minnehaha Av between DT Minneapolis and MSP airport.
Mike
A few of the absurd plans for the Pacific Northwest from decades past.
Seattle (1967):
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FkdHxRuD.jpg&hash=cc170600d6f549ee1f21fa6f5212380e5fb33887)
Portland (1965):
(https://i.imgur.com/65FN6yv.jpg)
Vancouver (1970):
(https://i.imgur.com/IJ2Kzn2.jpg)
(https://a4.pbase.com/o3/52/479852/1/146624216.F5K2Utt0.ProposedFreeway1.jpg)
(https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4005/4182283392_d6fe01fe6b_b.jpg)
FritzOwl, Sr. was in charge of the Pacific Northwest I see....
That's not absurd at all. That would've been fucking awesome to drive. Not so much for walkers but so what. Just drive out into the forests outside of the city.
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on June 26, 2023, 05:17:25 PM
That's not absurd at all. That would've been fucking awesome to drive. Not so much for walkers but so what. Just drive out into the forests outside of the city.
The forests that would be long gone due to added sprawl aided by suburban freeways?
Many of the proposals here (such as the RH Thomson in Seattle or Vancouver's downtown loop) would have displaced tens of thousands of people and created a much worse urban fabric all for very little benefit.
Quote from: HighwayStar on June 26, 2023, 01:23:06 PM
I think it is somewhat useful to distinguish between cities with "canceled freeways" which were essentially alternatives to freeways that were completed (especially as a result of building plans widely separated in time) versus cities with canceled freeways which did not have any meaningful alternatives built either.
The former is perhaps more indicative of say DFW while the latter is of course notorious in many places (such as DC for example).
I agree. One example that comes to mind for the former is I-70 in Baltimore. It is supplemented by I-695 and I-95 and provides an adequate route downtown.
Quote from: HighwayStar on June 26, 2023, 01:23:06 PM
I think it is somewhat useful to distinguish between cities with "canceled freeways" which were essentially alternatives to freeways that were completed (especially as a result of building plans widely separated in time) versus cities with canceled freeways which did not have any meaningful alternatives built either.
The former is perhaps more indicative of say DFW while the latter is of course notorious in many places (such as DC for example).
Since these two cities haven't been mentioned yet:
IIRC isn't Houston's only major cancellation basically SH 225 west of I-610? Which is to some degree redundant to I-45 which was built.
For comparison, here is what San Francisco's cancellation list is:
partial:
Central Freeway/US 101 (between Turk Street and the unbuilt segment of I-480; segment from Market to Fell demolished ca. 2005 and replaced with Octavia Boulevard)
Junipero Serra Freeway/original I-280 alignment pre-1968 (the vast majority of the SF section, from Font Boulevard to Golden Gate Park/I-80)
Embarcadero Freeway/I-480 (between the Marina/Richardson split on US 101 and Broadway - eventually entire route would be demolished)
280 extension (originally 82 and 87) (segment from 3rd Street to I-80/I-480; portion between 5th and 3rd Street was demolished after 1998 and converted to local street)
Never built
Park Presidio Freeway (I-280 between Golden Gate Park and the Presidio)
Western Freeway (I-80 through the Panhandle from the Central Freeway west to Golden Gate Park, one of the most controversial proposals ever floated)
Hunters Point Freeway (now legislatively Route 230, originally planned as a Route 87 extension from San Jose)
Southern Crossing from Cesar Chavez (Army) east to Alameda and towards I-980
Angel Island bridge from the planned Central Freeway north end to Tiburon
Built out fully
San Francisco Skyway (I-80/originally US 40 and 50)
Bayshore (aka James Lick) Freeway (US 101/former Bypass US 101 from I-80 south - construction through Potrero Hill became the initial source of anti-highway rancor)
Southern Freeway (I-280/former US 101)
Route 1 (part of pre-1968 planned I-280) and US 101 (legislatively part of pre-1991 480) in the Presidio, both dating back to the late 1930s with 101 rebuilt as Presidio Parkway ca. 2015
Quote from: Bruce on June 26, 2023, 05:36:37 PM
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on June 26, 2023, 05:17:25 PM
That's not absurd at all. That would've been fucking awesome to drive. Not so much for walkers but so what. Just drive out into the forests outside of the city.
The forests that would be long gone due to added sprawl aided by suburban freeways?
Many of the proposals here (such as the RH Thomson in Seattle or Vancouver's downtown loop) would have displaced tens of thousands of people and created a much worse urban fabric all for very little benefit.
Oh for crying out loud the forest would not "be gone."
I did a review of the status of the Illinois Supplemental Freeway system in Downstate notes in Great Lakes. A significant portion was built.
Chicago less so . But it depends what MPO plan to base it on.
Iowa Missouri Pennsylvania and Ohio has post Interstate rural freeway and expressway plans too.
Quote from: skluth on June 26, 2023, 11:41:42 AM
There was never a stub at I-70/McKinley Bridge though there is a fair amount of empty land that was leveled when the plan was active.
There wasn't a stub at the McKinley Bridge intersection, but there was an underpass with a street resembling a future ramp between Dock Street and Buchanan Street that visible in the older imagery in Google Earth.
As for other cancellations in the St. Louis area:
- The southern half of I-170.
- A corridor roughly along Page Avenue that would have gone to at least MO 755 originally, but seems to have been later cut back to I-170. IIRC MoDOT may finish the portion between I-270 and US 67 with adequate funding.
- An upgrade of IL 3 south of the PSB Complex that would have ultimately connected to I-57 at Marion.
- A connector from the PSB Complex to IL 15 near the IL 163 intersection (this one has stubs (https://goo.gl/maps/NoiJZS4THwyfFUjr9))
- US 50 running eastward from the cloverleaf with I-64 and IL 158.
- The Outerbelt/later Gateway Connector on the Illinois side running from the southern I-255/IL 3 interchange to the I-55/I-70/US 40 interchange at Troy
- Some of the earlier planning had a corridor between the North County area and I-70 in St. Louis City
- Possibly an upgraded MO 21 between Hillsboro and DeSoto
- The US 67 corridor in Illinois north of Godfrey[/url]
- One of the planning documents for East St. Louis probably still linked elsewhere on the forum had a connector between I-64 and the IL 15 corridor west of I-255.
Quote from: kernals12 on June 21, 2023, 10:16:47 PM
Does Las Vegas set the record for the largest city without any cancelled freeways?
To answer the original question, No.
That honor goes to Columbus, Ohio
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on June 26, 2023, 05:17:25 PM
That's not absurd at all. That would've been fucking awesome to drive. Not so much for walkers but so what. Just drive out into the forests outside of the city.
Given how bad traffic has gotten there these were far from absurd, and had they been built it might actually be possible to get somewhere in a reasonable time frame.
Quote from: HighwayStar on June 26, 2023, 11:21:58 PM
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on June 26, 2023, 05:17:25 PM
That's not absurd at all. That would've been fucking awesome to drive. Not so much for walkers but so what. Just drive out into the forests outside of the city.
Given how bad traffic has gotten there these were far from absurd, and had they been built it might actually be possible to get somewhere in a reasonable time frame.
That's exactly right. Same thing for LA. Would it have eliminated traffic congestion? Likely not. But it would've helped.
No. That would be Charlotte, NC.
If I recall NC never had any freeway revolts.
Quote from: HighwayStar on June 26, 2023, 11:21:58 PM
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on June 26, 2023, 05:17:25 PM
That's not absurd at all. That would've been fucking awesome to drive. Not so much for walkers but so what. Just drive out into the forests outside of the city.
Given how bad traffic has gotten there these were far from absurd, and had they been built it might actually be possible to get somewhere in a reasonable time frame.
Even in the worst
normal jams, it doesn't take that long to get around Seattle. Maybe if you stubbornly stick to a car, but the city has options. I can switch modes depending on the situation; an alternate version of Seattle where all these freeways were built would not have nearly the same mode diversity.
Quote from: Bruce on June 27, 2023, 12:23:28 AM
Quote from: HighwayStar on June 26, 2023, 11:21:58 PM
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on June 26, 2023, 05:17:25 PM
That's not absurd at all. That would've been fucking awesome to drive. Not so much for walkers but so what. Just drive out into the forests outside of the city.
Given how bad traffic has gotten there these were far from absurd, and had they been built it might actually be possible to get somewhere in a reasonable time frame.
Even in the worst normal jams, it doesn't take that long to get around Seattle. Maybe if you stubbornly stick to a car, but the city has options. I can switch modes depending on the situation; an alternate version of Seattle where all these freeways were built would not have nearly the same mode diversity.
Being able to just get where I want to go without delay in my vehicle is superior to, and eliminates the value of, "mode diversity."
Being forced to get out of the car to get somewhere means the road network is a failure.
For as many people live in the region it takes too long to get places, and it has gotten steadily worse over time.
Quote from: Bruce on June 27, 2023, 12:23:28 AM
Quote from: HighwayStar on June 26, 2023, 11:21:58 PM
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on June 26, 2023, 05:17:25 PM
That's not absurd at all. That would've been fucking awesome to drive. Not so much for walkers but so what. Just drive out into the forests outside of the city.
Given how bad traffic has gotten there these were far from absurd, and had they been built it might actually be possible to get somewhere in a reasonable time frame.
Even in the worst normal jams, it doesn't take that long to get around Seattle. Maybe if you stubbornly stick to a car, but the city has options. I can switch modes depending on the situation; an alternate version of Seattle where all these freeways were built would not have nearly the same mode diversity.
Good for you. I want the ease and comfort of my car.
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on June 27, 2023, 02:05:10 AM
Quote from: Bruce on June 27, 2023, 12:23:28 AM
Quote from: HighwayStar on June 26, 2023, 11:21:58 PM
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on June 26, 2023, 05:17:25 PM
That's not absurd at all. That would've been fucking awesome to drive. Not so much for walkers but so what. Just drive out into the forests outside of the city.
Given how bad traffic has gotten there these were far from absurd, and had they been built it might actually be possible to get somewhere in a reasonable time frame.
Even in the worst normal jams, it doesn't take that long to get around Seattle. Maybe if you stubbornly stick to a car, but the city has options. I can switch modes depending on the situation; an alternate version of Seattle where all these freeways were built would not have nearly the same mode diversity.
Good for you. I want the ease and comfort of my car.
Now apply that same(ish?) reasoning to the people who want to walk and take public transit around town.
Quote from: Some one on June 27, 2023, 02:20:37 AM
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on June 27, 2023, 02:05:10 AM
Quote from: Bruce on June 27, 2023, 12:23:28 AM
Quote from: HighwayStar on June 26, 2023, 11:21:58 PM
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on June 26, 2023, 05:17:25 PM
That's not absurd at all. That would've been fucking awesome to drive. Not so much for walkers but so what. Just drive out into the forests outside of the city.
Given how bad traffic has gotten there these were far from absurd, and had they been built it might actually be possible to get somewhere in a reasonable time frame.
Even in the worst normal jams, it doesn't take that long to get around Seattle. Maybe if you stubbornly stick to a car, but the city has options. I can switch modes depending on the situation; an alternate version of Seattle where all these freeways were built would not have nearly the same mode diversity.
Good for you. I want the ease and comfort of my car.
Now apply that same(ish?) reasoning to the people who want to walk and take public transit around town.
They can still do that. I do that over and under freeways on a near daily basis while taking the red line as well.
Quote from: Bruce on June 27, 2023, 12:23:28 AM
Quote from: HighwayStar on June 26, 2023, 11:21:58 PM
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on June 26, 2023, 05:17:25 PM
That's not absurd at all. That would've been fucking awesome to drive. Not so much for walkers but so what. Just drive out into the forests outside of the city.
Given how bad traffic has gotten there these were far from absurd, and had they been built it might actually be possible to get somewhere in a reasonable time frame.
Even in the worst normal jams, it doesn't take that long to get around Seattle. Maybe if you stubbornly stick to a car, but the city has options. I can switch modes depending on the situation; an alternate version of Seattle where all these freeways were built would not have nearly the same mode diversity.
I'm not seeing any commuter rail in Seattle, unless somehow Apple Maps isn't showing it.
(That said, I just checked how to get to Valve's headquarters from Seattle, Renton, Everett, and the SeaTac airport, and the buses all seemed pretty direct, which looks like a success.)
Also, what about those passing through on I-5? Seattle's transit system won't help with that.
My brother works for Microsoft in Redmond. He carpools, but public transportation suburb-to-suburb is limited along the I-405 corridor.
Quote from: mgk920 on June 26, 2023, 04:12:28 PM
Quote from: TheHighwayMan394 on June 26, 2023, 03:53:41 PM
A small sampling of MSP canned freeways:
-I-335
-Cedar Avenue north of present-day TH 62
-a southwest/western extension of TH 280 (extra bridges at I-94 reflecting this were removed in the 1980s)
-Ayd Mill Road in St. Paul (the "missing connection" between northbound I-35E and westbound I-94)
-TH 62 west of I-494 in Eden Prairie
-I believe there were plans for something along former TH 7 east of TH 100 to intersect I-94 roughly where the Lowry Hill Tunnel is in Minneapolis
And more. Some have observed capacity issues on existing freeways seem to exist because MDH/MnDOT was building them with the cancelled freeways in mind.
There was also a proposed MN 55 freeway to be an upgrade of Minnehaha Av between DT Minneapolis and MSP airport.
Mike
I can chalk up my own knowledge of the Twin Cities area into 3 maps:
- Minneapolis. (http://www.ajfroggie.com/roads/minnesota/rant/minneapolis-freeways.gif) A map I created showing everything I'm aware of that was proposed within the Minneapolis city limits, with the notable exception of what eventually became I-94 as it was proposed in 1946 (generally following "P", Washington Ave through downtown, and "L" east of Hiawatha Ave/MN 55).
- 1963 freeway planning map of St. Paul. (https://www.flickr.com/photos/ajfroggie/5145820639/) Includes (amongst others and those already mentioned), MN 5 west of I-35E, Warner Rd, Snelling Ave north of Ayd Mill and I-94, and a US 61 connection just north of Larpentur Ave.
- 1964 Interim Thoroughfare Plan. (https://www.flickr.com/photos/ajfroggie/53005614071/) From the JOINT Program (a precursor to the Metropolitan Council).
here is a map of some of the proposed freeways in Detroit in the 1950s https://detroitography.files.wordpress.com/2014/03/detroit-planned-highways.jpg?w=637&h=457 . Among the canceled freeways was the Mound, Grand River, , Vernor, and Conner freeways (these freeways would be built near the roads named). To add, there is the canceled northern part of I-275 in Oakland County.
Quote from: froggie on June 27, 2023, 10:58:53 AM
Quote from: mgk920 on June 26, 2023, 04:12:28 PM
Quote from: TheHighwayMan394 on June 26, 2023, 03:53:41 PM
A small sampling of MSP canned freeways:
-I-335
-Cedar Avenue north of present-day TH 62
-a southwest/western extension of TH 280 (extra bridges at I-94 reflecting this were removed in the 1980s)
-Ayd Mill Road in St. Paul (the "missing connection" between northbound I-35E and westbound I-94)
-TH 62 west of I-494 in Eden Prairie
-I believe there were plans for something along former TH 7 east of TH 100 to intersect I-94 roughly where the Lowry Hill Tunnel is in Minneapolis
And more. Some have observed capacity issues on existing freeways seem to exist because MDH/MnDOT was building them with the cancelled freeways in mind.
There was also a proposed MN 55 freeway to be an upgrade of Minnehaha Av between DT Minneapolis and MSP airport.
Mike
I can chalk up my own knowledge of the Twin Cities area into 3 maps:
- Minneapolis. (http://www.ajfroggie.com/roads/minnesota/rant/minneapolis-freeways.gif) A map I created showing everything I'm aware of that was proposed within the Minneapolis city limits, with the notable exception of what eventually became I-94 as it was proposed in 1946 (generally following "P", Washington Ave through downtown, and "L" east of Hiawatha Ave/MN 55).
- 1963 freeway planning map of St. Paul. (https://www.flickr.com/photos/ajfroggie/5145820639/) Includes (amongst others and those already mentioned), MN 5 west of I-35E, Warner Rd, Snelling Ave north of Ayd Mill and I-94, and a US 61 connection just north of Larpentur Ave.
- 1964 Interim Thoroughfare Plan. (https://www.flickr.com/photos/ajfroggie/53005614071/) From the JOINT Program (a precursor to the Metropolitan Council).
Why did I say 'Minehaha Av' when I meant 'Hiawatha Av' (MN 55)?
:banghead:
:-D
Mike
Quote from: 1 on June 27, 2023, 06:38:10 AM
Quote from: Bruce on June 27, 2023, 12:23:28 AM
Quote from: HighwayStar on June 26, 2023, 11:21:58 PM
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on June 26, 2023, 05:17:25 PM
That's not absurd at all. That would've been fucking awesome to drive. Not so much for walkers but so what. Just drive out into the forests outside of the city.
Given how bad traffic has gotten there these were far from absurd, and had they been built it might actually be possible to get somewhere in a reasonable time frame.
Even in the worst normal jams, it doesn't take that long to get around Seattle. Maybe if you stubbornly stick to a car, but the city has options. I can switch modes depending on the situation; an alternate version of Seattle where all these freeways were built would not have nearly the same mode diversity.
I'm not seeing any commuter rail in Seattle, unless somehow Apple Maps isn't showing it.
(That said, I just checked how to get to Valve's headquarters from Seattle, Renton, Everett, and the SeaTac airport, and the buses all seemed pretty direct, which looks like a success.)
Also, what about those passing through on I-5? Seattle's transit system won't help with that.
Our commuter rail system (Sounder) is basic and not really usable for anything but strict 9-5 commutes into downtown. The South Line goes to Tacoma and Lakewood with a few round trips, while the North Line goes to Everett and 2 ferry terminals with extremely limited service.
Valve is in Downtown Bellevue, which is a secondary hub with decent express bus service, but outside of working hours trips become limited.
There's plenty of transfer opportunities in Downtown Seattle, so someone who needs to commute through Seattle can still get through. With Link expansion, it'll be far faster; typically on weekdays, the afternoon slog into downtown is double the time it takes to take light rail and transfer to a bus heading into SODO. Anyone who needs to go further south would logically take I-405 anyway.
Meanwhile, in Québec City, the multiple cancelled freeways aren't much of a problem thanks to the pretty good bus service...
...or not. (https://ici.radio-canada.ca/nouvelle/1990834/greve-feq-autobus-chauffeurs)
Quote from: Mileage Mike on June 26, 2023, 11:56:01 PM
No. That would be Charlotte, NC.
If I recall NC never had any freeway revolts.
Charlotte had one cancelled freeway, an upgrade of US-74 across the whole city
Quote from: planxtymcgillicuddy on June 27, 2023, 07:19:43 PM
Quote from: Mileage Mike on June 26, 2023, 11:56:01 PM
No. That would be Charlotte, NC.
If I recall NC never had any freeway revolts.
Charlotte had one cancelled freeway, an upgrade of US-74 across the whole city
I always thought Charlotte had a strange freeway system, did they get started very late?
Quote from: silverback1065 on June 27, 2023, 07:21:07 PM
Quote from: planxtymcgillicuddy on June 27, 2023, 07:19:43 PM
Quote from: Mileage Mike on June 26, 2023, 11:56:01 PM
No. That would be Charlotte, NC.
If I recall NC never had any freeway revolts.
Charlotte had one cancelled freeway, an upgrade of US-74 across the whole city
I always thought Charlotte had a strange freeway system, did they get started very late?
If Charlotte got started very late, it's because their population growth also came late. Bear in mind, Charlotte in the 1980 census only had 36% of the population it has at 2020 census (315474 in 1980 vs 874579 in 2020).
Quote from: Some one on June 27, 2023, 02:20:37 AM
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on June 27, 2023, 02:05:10 AM
Quote from: Bruce on June 27, 2023, 12:23:28 AM
Quote from: HighwayStar on June 26, 2023, 11:21:58 PM
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on June 26, 2023, 05:17:25 PM
That's not absurd at all. That would've been fucking awesome to drive. Not so much for walkers but so what. Just drive out into the forests outside of the city.
Given how bad traffic has gotten there these were far from absurd, and had they been built it might actually be possible to get somewhere in a reasonable time frame.
Even in the worst normal jams, it doesn't take that long to get around Seattle. Maybe if you stubbornly stick to a car, but the city has options. I can switch modes depending on the situation; an alternate version of Seattle where all these freeways were built would not have nearly the same mode diversity.
Good for you. I want the ease and comfort of my car.
Now apply that same(ish?) reasoning to the people who want to walk and take public transit around town.
Virtually no one fits in that category except those who cannot afford a vehicle, and even those people generally aspire to be driving someday. And on any large scale those things trade off with each other, so it pays to build the highway because it generates far more utility than transit.
Quote from: HighwayStar on June 27, 2023, 09:28:49 PM
Virtually no one fits in that category except those who cannot afford a vehicle, and even those people generally aspire to be driving someday. And on any large scale those things trade off with each other, so it pays to build the highway because it generates far more utility than transit.
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/aa/Webcomic_xkcd_-_Wikipedian_protester_-_English.svg/600px-Webcomic_xkcd_-_Wikipedian_protester_-_English.svg.png)
Y'know people with cars are able to use these things called "park-and-rides" to access transit to reach the city? And it's wildly convenient compared to sitting through many downtown stoplights to reach a parking spot that may or may not be there, and cost $20?
I don't want to park and ride. I want a one seat ride. That's why I pay the high cost to own and operate a car.
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on June 27, 2023, 09:48:03 PM
I don't want to park and ride. I want a one seat ride. That's why I pay the high cost to own and operate a car.
It's a high cost to society.
Also, supporting mode diversity greatly benefits drivers as well. If people are forced to drive because of a sub-standard transit system, there's no amount of lane sprawl that can help.
Quote from: Bruce on June 27, 2023, 09:51:31 PM
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on June 27, 2023, 09:48:03 PM
I don't want to park and ride. I want a one seat ride. That's why I pay the high cost to own and operate a car.
It's a high cost to society.
Also, supporting mode diversity greatly benefits drivers as well. If people are forced to drive because of a sub-standard transit system, there's no amount of lane sprawl that can help.
High costs and high benefits. Funny how you're only painting one side of the picture. I fully support making cities more multimodal. I am however against making cities hostile to cars and lack of investment into freeways.
If it takes 30 minutes for a bus to take a certain trip on the surface arterial paralleling WA 167, how would an east-west freeway through Kent make it slower?
Quote from: Bruce on June 27, 2023, 09:41:16 PM
Quote from: HighwayStar on June 27, 2023, 09:28:49 PM
Virtually no one fits in that category except those who cannot afford a vehicle, and even those people generally aspire to be driving someday. And on any large scale those things trade off with each other, so it pays to build the highway because it generates far more utility than transit.
Y'know people with cars are able to use these things called "park-and-rides" to access transit to reach the city? And it's wildly convenient compared to sitting through many downtown stoplights to reach a parking spot that may or may not be there, and cost $20?
Why would I want to park my vehicle, unload my belongings, carry them to some pickup spot, wait for a bus/train/trolley to show up, sit in a mob of strangers on said vehicle, disembark, and then walk several more blocks carrying whatever I have with me to my destination (or very possibly multiple destinations, requiring me to carry everything with me and get around on foot the entire time), then reverse the entire thing at the end of the day?
No, a far superior alternative is to just drive to the destination, park at it, and walk into the building. Even if there are many downtown stoplights, at least when I am sitting at those I am in the comfort of my own vehicle, I can drink, eat, listen to the radio, make and receive calls, etc. And a park and ride is only going to bypass those lights if its a train on a dedicated right of way, if it is a bus or some light rail that shares right of way it has to wait for many or all of the same lights.
And even that is being generous, since we are assuming the existence of lights and limited parking. If we do as I prefer, which is to invest in freeways and other connecting roadways, along with ample parking in downtown areas, then the lights are cut to a minimum and the parking is abundant. Every $ spent on park and ride lots I would much rather have put into parking and freeways to get me where I want to go in the comfort of my own vehicle.
Quote from: Bruce on June 27, 2023, 09:51:31 PM
there's no amount of lane sprawl that can help.
At some point, you build enough lanes and everyone can be on the road without it being clogged. Now we might agree that for reasons of cost, space, etc. that point is unobtainable in some areas and I would agree with that. But the idea that its not a point that exists is false.
And there are areas where that level of access seems to be roughly attained. East valley of the Phoenix metro comes to mind, drove around there all week and really never had sustained stop and go traffic (I'm sure there is some, just not any I saw for a week, which is more than I can say about many areas).
Quote from: HighwayStar on June 27, 2023, 10:01:06 PM
Why would I want to park my vehicle
I don't even need a vehicle – the bus picks me up at the edge of the apartment complex.
Quote from: HighwayStar on June 27, 2023, 10:01:06 PM
unload my belongings, carry them to some pickup spot
I only bring what I need. This is typically only a reusable water bottle if I'm planning to walk there or back (which I often do for exercise), reusable bags if I'm going grocery shopping, and/or my laptop in a waterproof case for certain events. Sometimes even none of the three.
Quote from: HighwayStar on June 27, 2023, 10:01:06 PM
wait for a bus/train/trolley to show up
3-4 minutes. You can track where they are using an app.
Quote from: HighwayStar on June 27, 2023, 10:01:06 PM
sit in a mob of strangers on said vehicle
I've used the bus for years and have had very few problems with the other passengers.
Quote from: HighwayStar on June 27, 2023, 10:01:06 PM
disembark, and then walk several more blocks carrying whatever I have with me to my destination
Most of my destinations (my pharmacy and the location I play Magic: the Gathering being the two main exceptions) don't require any walking after getting off other than through the parking lot.
Quote from: HighwayStar on June 27, 2023, 10:01:06 PM
(or very possibly multiple destinations, requiring me to carry everything with me and get around on foot the entire time),
I've been known to put my prescriptions and my groceries in the same bag, even though they're from different stores. Sometimes I've even done so with the local bakery.
Quote from: HighwayStar on June 27, 2023, 10:01:06 PM
Quote from: Bruce on June 27, 2023, 09:41:16 PM
Quote from: HighwayStar on June 27, 2023, 09:28:49 PM
Virtually no one fits in that category except those who cannot afford a vehicle, and even those people generally aspire to be driving someday. And on any large scale those things trade off with each other, so it pays to build the highway because it generates far more utility than transit.
Y'know people with cars are able to use these things called "park-and-rides" to access transit to reach the city? And it's wildly convenient compared to sitting through many downtown stoplights to reach a parking spot that may or may not be there, and cost $20?
Why would I want to park my vehicle, unload my belongings, carry them to some pickup spot, wait for a bus/train/trolley to show up, sit in a mob of strangers on said vehicle, disembark, and then walk several more blocks carrying whatever I have with me to my destination (or very possibly multiple destinations, requiring me to carry everything with me and get around on foot the entire time), then reverse the entire thing at the end of the day?
No, a far superior alternative is to just drive to the destination, park at it, and walk into the building. Even if there are many downtown stoplights, at least when I am sitting at those I am in the comfort of my own vehicle, I can drink, eat, listen to the radio, make and receive calls, etc. And a park and ride is only going to bypass those lights if its a train on a dedicated right of way, if it is a bus or some light rail that shares right of way it has to wait for many or all of the same lights.
And even that is being generous, since we are assuming the existence of lights and limited parking. If we do as I prefer, which is to invest in freeways and other connecting roadways, along with ample parking in downtown areas, then the lights are cut to a minimum and the parking is abundant. Every $ spent on park and ride lots I would much rather have put into parking and freeways to get me where I want to go in the comfort of my own vehicle.
Well, the cost to park and the round trip are on the CTA's Blue Line between Cumberland Ave and downtown Chicago is less than $10 for the day compared with traffic and parking ($30 or more just for the parking) when I drive it from here in Appleton. Whenever common-carrier rail passenger service restarts, I am expecting the round-trip fare to be in the $100-125 range (4 hours or so transit time in each direction).
Mike
Quote from: 1 on June 27, 2023, 10:22:36 PM
Quote from: HighwayStar on June 27, 2023, 10:01:06 PM
Why would I want to park my vehicle
I don't even need a vehicle – the bus picks me up at the edge of the apartment complex.
Quote from: HighwayStar on June 27, 2023, 10:01:06 PM
unload my belongings, carry them to some pickup spot
I only bring what I need. This is typically only a reusable water bottle if I'm planning to walk there or back (which I often do for exercise), reusable bags if I'm going grocery shopping, and/or my laptop in a waterproof case for certain events. Sometimes even none of the three.
Quote from: HighwayStar on June 27, 2023, 10:01:06 PM
wait for a bus/train/trolley to show up
3-4 minutes. You can track where they are using an app.
Quote from: HighwayStar on June 27, 2023, 10:01:06 PM
sit in a mob of strangers on said vehicle
I've used the bus for years and have had very few problems with the other passengers.
Quote from: HighwayStar on June 27, 2023, 10:01:06 PM
disembark, and then walk several more blocks carrying whatever I have with me to my destination
Most of my destinations (my pharmacy and the location I play Magic: the Gathering being the two main exceptions) don't require any walking after getting off other than through the parking lot.
Quote from: HighwayStar on June 27, 2023, 10:01:06 PM
(or very possibly multiple destinations, requiring me to carry everything with me and get around on foot the entire time),
I've been known to put my prescriptions and my groceries in the same bag, even though they're from different stores. Sometimes I've even done so with the local bakery.
Most people are not having a bus right in front of their residence though, most are going to walk several blocks to get to a bus. When I was using public transit it was 6 blocks, and that was in one of the best served cities in the US.
I'm all for bringing what you need, but many people have to bring a good sized bag to and from work. Even in an office I was hauling a laptop bag with a laptop, various accessories, chargers, and things I needed since I would not be home all day (food, minimal supplies of medicine, etc). And in many jobs there is a significant amount to bring. Or if you have kids you just added a diaper bag to the equation. No matter what it is its easier to throw it in the trunk.
3-4 minutes is not always the case. My bus was closer to 10 minutes but when it was off schedule it could be 20+. Even 3-4 minutes is still 3-4 minutes more than just getting in my car.
In the relatively short time I used the bus I did not have a "problem" in the sense that I was physically attacked, but I was nevertheless subjected to the odor, filth, communicable diseases, drug use, etc. of everyone else. And even without any of those issues the noise was enough that having a call with someone was problematic, and with a colleague not possible. I and many of my coworkers get a significant amount of additional time back each day by being able to hold calls from the vehicle.
You have an unusual experience with destinations. Most people are looking at a few blocks to their building, and that few blocks becomes a pain in the ass when there is rain, snow, ice, or brutal heat. Mine was 3 blocks, and that was the closest bus line. Most destinations were 2-3 blocks.
Even if you are pilling things in one bag, that is still a bag full of crap you have to carry, you are not reducing weight. Also a trip to the grocery store is usually several bags, taking that crap on a bus was a pain in the ass.
No matter how you dice it, as long as proper parking and road infrastructure is provided, it will always be a more luxurious and pleasant experience for me to drive my vehicle point to point destinations, in perfect climate control, without having to share the space with strangers, and having all the cargo capacity and passenger seating I need. I've done it both ways and there simply is no comparison.
Quote from: mgk920 on June 27, 2023, 11:20:14 PM
Quote from: HighwayStar on June 27, 2023, 10:01:06 PM
Quote from: Bruce on June 27, 2023, 09:41:16 PM
Quote from: HighwayStar on June 27, 2023, 09:28:49 PM
Virtually no one fits in that category except those who cannot afford a vehicle, and even those people generally aspire to be driving someday. And on any large scale those things trade off with each other, so it pays to build the highway because it generates far more utility than transit.
Y'know people with cars are able to use these things called "park-and-rides" to access transit to reach the city? And it's wildly convenient compared to sitting through many downtown stoplights to reach a parking spot that may or may not be there, and cost $20?
Why would I want to park my vehicle, unload my belongings, carry them to some pickup spot, wait for a bus/train/trolley to show up, sit in a mob of strangers on said vehicle, disembark, and then walk several more blocks carrying whatever I have with me to my destination (or very possibly multiple destinations, requiring me to carry everything with me and get around on foot the entire time), then reverse the entire thing at the end of the day?
No, a far superior alternative is to just drive to the destination, park at it, and walk into the building. Even if there are many downtown stoplights, at least when I am sitting at those I am in the comfort of my own vehicle, I can drink, eat, listen to the radio, make and receive calls, etc. And a park and ride is only going to bypass those lights if its a train on a dedicated right of way, if it is a bus or some light rail that shares right of way it has to wait for many or all of the same lights.
And even that is being generous, since we are assuming the existence of lights and limited parking. If we do as I prefer, which is to invest in freeways and other connecting roadways, along with ample parking in downtown areas, then the lights are cut to a minimum and the parking is abundant. Every $ spent on park and ride lots I would much rather have put into parking and freeways to get me where I want to go in the comfort of my own vehicle.
Well, the cost to park and the round trip are on the CTA's Blue Line between Cumberland Ave and downtown Chicago is less than $10 for the day compared with traffic and parking ($30 or more just for the parking) when I drive it from here in Appleton. Whenever common-carrier rail passenger service restarts, I am expecting the round-trip fare to be in the $100-125 range (4 hours or so transit time in each direction).
Mike
All that proves is the funds are being allocated incorrectly. If the value of parking on site is worth 3x what the stupid park and ride is worth we should be greatly expanding parking in that area.
Quote from: 1 on June 27, 2023, 09:59:18 PM
If it takes 30 minutes for a bus to take a certain trip on the surface arterial paralleling WA 167, how would an east-west freeway through Kent make it slower?
Simply put: the new freeway will encourage more car use and bring more traffic into areas surrounding exits, which would likely include a street where the bus you're describing would run. Also, buses that might run on that route might have to deadhead on any number of freeways that would be affected by increased traffic funneled in by this new freeway.
The east-west route across Kent was likely the Petrovitsky Expressway, which never went anywhere because it wouldn't have been usable for a lot of people. At the time, SR 167 was just fine for getting to downtown, and SR 516 wasn't that bad an option either. Even today, SR 516 doesn't congest much and all the trouble appears when hitting an actual chokepoint or driving during the peak of peak (which is unwise anyway).
Quote from: Bruce on June 26, 2023, 05:36:37 PM
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on June 26, 2023, 05:17:25 PM
That's not absurd at all. That would've been fucking awesome to drive. Not so much for walkers but so what. Just drive out into the forests outside of the city.
The forests that would be long gone due to added sprawl aided by suburban freeways?
1. Just because a road is built doesn't mean development automatically comes with it.
2. Development comes regardless of whether the roads have been built or not. May I present to you Exhibit A: Western Lake County, Illinois.
Quote from: HighwayStar on June 27, 2023, 10:06:00 PM
Quote from: Bruce on June 27, 2023, 09:51:31 PM
there's no amount of lane sprawl that can help.
At some point, you build enough lanes and everyone can be on the road without it being clogged. Now we might agree that for reasons of cost, space, etc. that point is unobtainable in some areas and I would agree with that. But the idea that its not a point that exists is false.
And there are areas where that level of access seems to be roughly attained. East valley of the Phoenix metro comes to mind, drove around there all week and really never had sustained stop and go traffic (I'm sure there is some, just not any I saw for a week, which is more than I can say about many areas).
Some choke points do exist in the east valley. The big one that I dealt with frequently was the back ups caused on southbound 101 on the Gila Reservation which originated at 202 or sometimes even as far south as US 60. Coming into downtown on westbound 202 towards the 10/51 interchange usually is a monster backup during commuter hours. US 60 westbound onto I-10 westbound isn't usually a cake walk, but that's also being rebuilt. Having the South Mountain Freeway/202 bypass of downtown available leaving the area from Gilbert two months ago was something I would have welcomed two decades ago.
:-D I knew this would start an argument. The transit proponents always bringing up their substandard arguments and the car proponents bringing their arguments. there's pros and cons, i have always thought the transit proponents propose solutions that just aren't as wonderful as they claim they are. And the car proponents propose solutions that are also full of issues. I've recently been able to commute both ways to work, via car and bike. I find they both take the exact same time but cost is definitely better with a bike. In my opinion, transit (bus, bike, ride share, etc.) is almost always cheaper than a car, but in terms of time investment, it's almost always the same amount of time if not more, and honestly it's usually more time. This is why I always default to car because the car in almost every situation where I am is faster from a time perspective.
The Dutch (as in 'Nederlands') government fully bought into the 'induced demand' thing by pretty much stopping all of their investments in new and expanded highways in the 1970s. Since then, they have spent billions of Euros undoing that mistake.
Mike
Quote from: Some one on June 27, 2023, 02:20:37 AM
Now apply that same(ish?) reasoning to the people who want to walk and take public transit around town.
Quote from: HighwayStar on June 27, 2023, 09:28:49 PM
Virtually no one fits in that category except those who cannot afford a vehicle, and even those people generally aspire to be driving someday.
Quote from: Bruce on June 27, 2023, 09:41:16 PM
Y'know people with cars are able to use these things called "park-and-rides" to access transit to reach the city? And it's wildly convenient compared to sitting through many downtown stoplights to reach a parking spot that may or may not be there, and cost $20?
Quote from: HighwayStar on June 27, 2023, 10:01:06 PM
Why would I want to park my vehicle, unload my belongings, carry them to some pickup spot, wait for a bus/train/trolley to show up, sit in a mob of strangers on said vehicle, disembark, and then walk several more blocks carrying whatever I have with me to my destination (or very possibly multiple destinations, requiring me to carry everything with me and get around on foot the entire time), then reverse the entire thing at the end of the day?
No one said you wanted to do that, nor did anyone say you
should want to. But your claim that "virtually no one" wants to is plainly false, because all the cars at park-and-rides were obviously driven there by real people–many of them being business professionals with enough disposable income to commute back and forth between suburbs and city center. Multiple users on this very forum have used park-and-rides as a matter of convenience. I've done similar back when I lived in the Chicago suburbs, although I generally chose to guerilla-park at a shopping complex near the Green Line L station instead of paying for the park-and-ride at the Blue Line station, because doing so was more convenient than driving all the way downtown.
Quote from: HighwayStar on June 27, 2023, 09:28:49 PM
Quote from: Some one on June 27, 2023, 02:20:37 AM
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on June 27, 2023, 02:05:10 AM
Quote from: Bruce on June 27, 2023, 12:23:28 AM
Quote from: HighwayStar on June 26, 2023, 11:21:58 PM
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on June 26, 2023, 05:17:25 PM
That's not absurd at all. That would've been fucking awesome to drive. Not so much for walkers but so what. Just drive out into the forests outside of the city.
Given how bad traffic has gotten there these were far from absurd, and had they been built it might actually be possible to get somewhere in a reasonable time frame.
Even in the worst normal jams, it doesn't take that long to get around Seattle. Maybe if you stubbornly stick to a car, but the city has options. I can switch modes depending on the situation; an alternate version of Seattle where all these freeways were built would not have nearly the same mode diversity.
Good for you. I want the ease and comfort of my car.
Now apply that same(ish?) reasoning to the people who want to walk and take public transit around town.
Virtually no one fits in that category except those who cannot afford a vehicle, and even those people generally aspire to be driving someday. And on any large scale those things trade off with each other, so it pays to build the highway because it generates far more utility than transit.
Maybe in Lilliput, but there are a significant number of teens who don't want to drive because the hassle and expense of owning a car isn't worth it to them. "In 1997, 43 percent of 16-year-olds and 62 percent of 17-year-olds had driver's licenses. In 2020, those numbers had fallen to 25 percent and 45 percent. (https://www.washingtonpost.com/climate-solutions/2023/02/13/gen-z-driving-less-uber/.)" Teens and young adults today often use ride-hailing apps or will use transit if available. I honestly probably wouldn't bother getting my license today if I were young; as it was I didn't own a car until I was 29 and only got my license at 17 because my parents demanded it (I was the oldest and they wanted help with chauffeuring my younger brothers.). I got along fine without a car the four years I lived in Madison WI as my bicycle and the frequent bus service were more than adequate; I could walk a couple blocks to a grocery, a laundromat, and even a liquor store on the isthmus. I even lived a couple years in Green Bay without a car though that was tougher. And I certainly didn't need a car in the Navy. So I can easily see with better transportation options today in many cities like Portland, Washington, and Chicago why teens may not want to bother with a car ever. I know at least one of my nieces doesn't have her license and has no desire for one; it helps that she lives two blocks from a light rail station between downtown and the MSP airport.
Many younger people are also looking at it from a more environmental perspective. Climate change is a real fear for many of them whether you believe it's happening or not. Not adding to their carbon footprint is personal. Maybe it will change if EVs become more affordable but EVs still have a significant carbon footprint from the manufacturing process to the charging (if not from renewable sources) to the extraction of rare earths needed for batteries. That's not to mention the human exploitation involved in that extraction. Regardless of the reasoning, younger people are driving less and wanting more options that often don't include cars at all. Lilliputians may think differently but many young people in cities and the nearer suburbs are wanting to drive less - even if they can afford it.
Quote from: skluth on June 28, 2023, 03:28:52 PM
"In 1997, 43 percent of 16-year-olds and 62 percent of 17-year-olds had driver's licenses. In 2020, those numbers had fallen to 25 percent and 45 percent. (https://www.washingtonpost.com/climate-solutions/2023/02/13/gen-z-driving-less-uber/.)"
I'd be curious to know how much of that is due to states' raising the age for, or drawing out the process of, obtaining a DL.
Hartford:
http://kurumi.com/roads/ct/pics/art-hfd-fwy-60s.png (http://kurumi.com/roads/ct/pics/art-hfd-fwy-60s.png)
A very big factor is also that cars themselves are not anywhere near as fun nor easy to work on, modify and 'tinker with' as they were a few decades ago.
Mike
Indy has only 1 real cancellation and a lot of proposed ones that never got off the map. I-69 was supposed to end downtown, they cancelled it after the feds refused to pay for it, coupled with freeway opposition, and the planners realizing it wasn't really needed.
Quote from: skluth on June 22, 2023, 11:14:36 AM
Kansas City's cancelled freeway is even more notorious, US 71 through the south side. IMO, KC's system is overbuilt with the north side of the downtown loop being redundant except when an accident closes I-670.
How is the north part of the downtown loop "redundant" when it carries mainline I-35?
Quote from: skluth on June 28, 2023, 03:28:52 PM
Quote from: HighwayStar on June 27, 2023, 09:28:49 PM
Quote from: Some one on June 27, 2023, 02:20:37 AM
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on June 27, 2023, 02:05:10 AM
Quote from: Bruce on June 27, 2023, 12:23:28 AM
Quote from: HighwayStar on June 26, 2023, 11:21:58 PM
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on June 26, 2023, 05:17:25 PM
That's not absurd at all. That would've been fucking awesome to drive. Not so much for walkers but so what. Just drive out into the forests outside of the city.
Given how bad traffic has gotten there these were far from absurd, and had they been built it might actually be possible to get somewhere in a reasonable time frame.
Even in the worst normal jams, it doesn't take that long to get around Seattle. Maybe if you stubbornly stick to a car, but the city has options. I can switch modes depending on the situation; an alternate version of Seattle where all these freeways were built would not have nearly the same mode diversity.
Good for you. I want the ease and comfort of my car.
Now apply that same(ish?) reasoning to the people who want to walk and take public transit around town.
Virtually no one fits in that category except those who cannot afford a vehicle, and even those people generally aspire to be driving someday. And on any large scale those things trade off with each other, so it pays to build the highway because it generates far more utility than transit.
Maybe in Lilliput, but there are a significant number of teens who don't want to drive because the hassle and expense of owning a car isn't worth it to them. "In 1997, 43 percent of 16-year-olds and 62 percent of 17-year-olds had driver's licenses. In 2020, those numbers had fallen to 25 percent and 45 percent. (https://www.washingtonpost.com/climate-solutions/2023/02/13/gen-z-driving-less-uber/.)" Teens and young adults today often use ride-hailing apps or will use transit if available. I honestly probably wouldn't bother getting my license today if I were young; as it was I didn't own a car until I was 29 and only got my license at 17 because my parents demanded it (I was the oldest and they wanted help with chauffeuring my younger brothers.). I got along fine without a car the four years I lived in Madison WI as my bicycle and the frequent bus service were more than adequate; I could walk a couple blocks to a grocery, a laundromat, and even a liquor store on the isthmus. I even lived a couple years in Green Bay without a car though that was tougher. And I certainly didn't need a car in the Navy. So I can easily see with better transportation options today in many cities like Portland, Washington, and Chicago why teens may not want to bother with a car ever. I know at least one of my nieces doesn't have her license and has no desire for one; it helps that she lives two blocks from a light rail station between downtown and the MSP airport.
Many younger people are also looking at it from a more environmental perspective. Climate change is a real fear for many of them whether you believe it's happening or not. Not adding to their carbon footprint is personal. Maybe it will change if EVs become more affordable but EVs still have a significant carbon footprint from the manufacturing process to the charging (if not from renewable sources) to the extraction of rare earths needed for batteries. That's not to mention the human exploitation involved in that extraction. Regardless of the reasoning, younger people are driving less and wanting more options that often don't include cars at all. Lilliputians may think differently but many young people in cities and the nearer suburbs are wanting to drive less - even if they can afford it.
Kids today are not maturing in a myriad of other ways, so not surprising they cannot get it together and drive either. I doubt many really care about the environment, its more a lack of funds and maturity required to be an adult and drive. If you look at employment of youth versus years past it is also much lower, these things go hand in hand.
Although that might be the trend as a whole, the successful young people I know all drive.
Quote from: bugo on June 28, 2023, 11:32:33 PM
Quote from: skluth on June 22, 2023, 11:14:36 AM
Kansas City's cancelled freeway is even more notorious, US 71 through the south side. IMO, KC's system is overbuilt with the north side of the downtown loop being redundant except when an accident closes I-670.
How is the north part of the downtown loop "redundant" when it carries mainline I-35?
because you can easily reroute the freeways to not need the north side at all. it leads into that death curve in kansas too, it should all be removed and 670 should become 70.
Quote from: HighwayStar on June 28, 2023, 11:59:42 PM
Quote from: skluth on June 28, 2023, 03:28:52 PM
Quote from: HighwayStar on June 27, 2023, 09:28:49 PM
Quote from: Some one on June 27, 2023, 02:20:37 AM
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on June 27, 2023, 02:05:10 AM
Quote from: Bruce on June 27, 2023, 12:23:28 AM
Quote from: HighwayStar on June 26, 2023, 11:21:58 PM
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on June 26, 2023, 05:17:25 PM
That's not absurd at all. That would've been fucking awesome to drive. Not so much for walkers but so what. Just drive out into the forests outside of the city.
Given how bad traffic has gotten there these were far from absurd, and had they been built it might actually be possible to get somewhere in a reasonable time frame.
Even in the worst normal jams, it doesn't take that long to get around Seattle. Maybe if you stubbornly stick to a car, but the city has options. I can switch modes depending on the situation; an alternate version of Seattle where all these freeways were built would not have nearly the same mode diversity.
Good for you. I want the ease and comfort of my car.
Now apply that same(ish?) reasoning to the people who want to walk and take public transit around town.
Virtually no one fits in that category except those who cannot afford a vehicle, and even those people generally aspire to be driving someday. And on any large scale those things trade off with each other, so it pays to build the highway because it generates far more utility than transit.
Maybe in Lilliput, but there are a significant number of teens who don't want to drive because the hassle and expense of owning a car isn't worth it to them. "In 1997, 43 percent of 16-year-olds and 62 percent of 17-year-olds had driver's licenses. In 2020, those numbers had fallen to 25 percent and 45 percent. (https://www.washingtonpost.com/climate-solutions/2023/02/13/gen-z-driving-less-uber/.)" Teens and young adults today often use ride-hailing apps or will use transit if available. I honestly probably wouldn't bother getting my license today if I were young; as it was I didn't own a car until I was 29 and only got my license at 17 because my parents demanded it (I was the oldest and they wanted help with chauffeuring my younger brothers.). I got along fine without a car the four years I lived in Madison WI as my bicycle and the frequent bus service were more than adequate; I could walk a couple blocks to a grocery, a laundromat, and even a liquor store on the isthmus. I even lived a couple years in Green Bay without a car though that was tougher. And I certainly didn't need a car in the Navy. So I can easily see with better transportation options today in many cities like Portland, Washington, and Chicago why teens may not want to bother with a car ever. I know at least one of my nieces doesn't have her license and has no desire for one; it helps that she lives two blocks from a light rail station between downtown and the MSP airport.
Many younger people are also looking at it from a more environmental perspective. Climate change is a real fear for many of them whether you believe it's happening or not. Not adding to their carbon footprint is personal. Maybe it will change if EVs become more affordable but EVs still have a significant carbon footprint from the manufacturing process to the charging (if not from renewable sources) to the extraction of rare earths needed for batteries. That's not to mention the human exploitation involved in that extraction. Regardless of the reasoning, younger people are driving less and wanting more options that often don't include cars at all. Lilliputians may think differently but many young people in cities and the nearer suburbs are wanting to drive less - even if they can afford it.
Kids today are not maturing in a myriad of other ways, so not surprising they cannot get it together and drive either. I doubt many really care about the environment, its more a lack of funds and maturity required to be an adult and drive. If you look at employment of youth versus years past it is also much lower, these things go hand in hand.
Although that might be the trend as a whole, the successful young people I know all drive.
It has nothing to do with lack of maturity. It has to do with lack of need. Having a 16 year old with a license is expensive for parents who pay for the insurance. It's also not much of a need if you can get around in other ways, especially if you are a two car family and parents who use the cars during the day.
And the lack of kids working has to do more with their being busy doing other things and/or their parents just giving them the money to do things with their friends.
Anytime you say "well you know kids these days," its probably inaccurate. That phrase has been said for generations, but as The Who told us "the kids are alright."
Quote from: SEWIGuy on June 29, 2023, 08:32:40 AM
Quote from: HighwayStar on June 28, 2023, 11:59:42 PM
Quote from: skluth on June 28, 2023, 03:28:52 PM
Quote from: HighwayStar on June 27, 2023, 09:28:49 PM
Quote from: Some one on June 27, 2023, 02:20:37 AM
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on June 27, 2023, 02:05:10 AM
Quote from: Bruce on June 27, 2023, 12:23:28 AM
Quote from: HighwayStar on June 26, 2023, 11:21:58 PM
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on June 26, 2023, 05:17:25 PM
That's not absurd at all. That would've been fucking awesome to drive. Not so much for walkers but so what. Just drive out into the forests outside of the city.
Given how bad traffic has gotten there these were far from absurd, and had they been built it might actually be possible to get somewhere in a reasonable time frame.
Even in the worst normal jams, it doesn't take that long to get around Seattle. Maybe if you stubbornly stick to a car, but the city has options. I can switch modes depending on the situation; an alternate version of Seattle where all these freeways were built would not have nearly the same mode diversity.
Good for you. I want the ease and comfort of my car.
Now apply that same(ish?) reasoning to the people who want to walk and take public transit around town.
Virtually no one fits in that category except those who cannot afford a vehicle, and even those people generally aspire to be driving someday. And on any large scale those things trade off with each other, so it pays to build the highway because it generates far more utility than transit.
Maybe in Lilliput, but there are a significant number of teens who don't want to drive because the hassle and expense of owning a car isn't worth it to them. "In 1997, 43 percent of 16-year-olds and 62 percent of 17-year-olds had driver's licenses. In 2020, those numbers had fallen to 25 percent and 45 percent. (https://www.washingtonpost.com/climate-solutions/2023/02/13/gen-z-driving-less-uber/.)" Teens and young adults today often use ride-hailing apps or will use transit if available. I honestly probably wouldn't bother getting my license today if I were young; as it was I didn't own a car until I was 29 and only got my license at 17 because my parents demanded it (I was the oldest and they wanted help with chauffeuring my younger brothers.). I got along fine without a car the four years I lived in Madison WI as my bicycle and the frequent bus service were more than adequate; I could walk a couple blocks to a grocery, a laundromat, and even a liquor store on the isthmus. I even lived a couple years in Green Bay without a car though that was tougher. And I certainly didn't need a car in the Navy. So I can easily see with better transportation options today in many cities like Portland, Washington, and Chicago why teens may not want to bother with a car ever. I know at least one of my nieces doesn't have her license and has no desire for one; it helps that she lives two blocks from a light rail station between downtown and the MSP airport.
Many younger people are also looking at it from a more environmental perspective. Climate change is a real fear for many of them whether you believe it's happening or not. Not adding to their carbon footprint is personal. Maybe it will change if EVs become more affordable but EVs still have a significant carbon footprint from the manufacturing process to the charging (if not from renewable sources) to the extraction of rare earths needed for batteries. That's not to mention the human exploitation involved in that extraction. Regardless of the reasoning, younger people are driving less and wanting more options that often don't include cars at all. Lilliputians may think differently but many young people in cities and the nearer suburbs are wanting to drive less - even if they can afford it.
Kids today are not maturing in a myriad of other ways, so not surprising they cannot get it together and drive either. I doubt many really care about the environment, its more a lack of funds and maturity required to be an adult and drive. If you look at employment of youth versus years past it is also much lower, these things go hand in hand.
Although that might be the trend as a whole, the successful young people I know all drive.
It has nothing to do with lack of maturity. It has to do with lack of need. Having a 16 year old with a license is expensive for parents who pay for the insurance. It's also not much of a need if you can get around in other ways, especially if you are a two car family and parents who use the cars during the day.
And the lack of kids working has to do more with their being busy doing other things and/or their parents just giving them the money to do things with their friends.
Anytime you say "well you know kids these days," its probably inaccurate. That phrase has been said for generations, but as The Who told us "the kids are alright."
Heh. My daughter doesn't have a license, graduated from an elite college and now is looking like she'll be working for Harvard or Brigham and Women's Hospital in Boston doing genetics research or some sort of pathology. I'd call her successful.
My son has a license and car (yep, we help), is currently working as a lineman at an airport, wrapping up his commercial certificate for flying and figuring out his return to college in the fall. I'd call him successful.
Given my experience with them and their friends, the connection between success and being licensed to drive has definitely loosened over the past 10 years or more.
And how do you define success? It doesn't always mean having money.
Quote from: SEWIGuy on June 29, 2023, 08:32:40 AM
It has nothing to do with lack of maturity. It has to do with lack of need. Having a 16 year old with a license is expensive for parents who pay for the insurance. It's also not much of a need if you can get around in other ways, especially if you are a two car family and parents who use the cars during the day.
Oh, man. Our 15-year-old son keeps asking us when we're going to teach him to drive. So we finally looked up how much we should expect our insurance to go up by adding him to our policy. (We can't get a quote without actually putting him on the policy, but how can we know if we can afford it without an ahead-of-time quote?) Anyway, according to the almighty Google, just adding him will cost more than the two of us put together. Good grief...
And I'd actually say it's more of a need if you
are a two-car family. Our family only has one car, so I shouldn't be very likely to let my kid drive our only vehicle over to his friend's house on a Saturday afternoon. That would leave us with no car.
Quote from: Big John on June 29, 2023, 10:10:24 AM
And how do you define success? It doesn't always mean having money.
But to an extent it is almost always a contributing factor.
I think a lot of things contribute to young people not driving these days. It takes longer to get an unrestricted license that can be used to have passengers your own age. Life is much more online. People live in walkable areas in college and decide they like it. Cars are more complicated, insurance is expensive, more extracurriculars in school, etc. The days of getting an after-school job to buy and insure a beater that you fix yourself and tinker with and use to ferry all your friends while you hang out are long, long gone. And they aren't coming back.
And yeah, young people are more concerned with the environment, climate change, etc. because THEY'RE THE ONES WHO HAVE TO LIVE WITH IT. Older generations will be long dead before the worst consequences are here, so not surprised they don't care as much.
Can we get back to cancelled freeways and not talk about irrelevant things please? :-D
Quote from: HighwayStar on June 28, 2023, 11:59:42 PM
Kids today are not maturing in a myriad of other ways, so not surprising they cannot get it together and drive either. I doubt many really care about the environment, its more a lack of funds and maturity required to be an adult and drive. If you look at employment of youth versus years past it is also much lower, these things go hand in hand.
Although that might be the trend as a whole, the successful young people I know all drive.
OK Boomer.
Some of the most successful people I know don't drive because they are able to comfortably afford a car-free lifestyle in the city. Based on how terrible drivers are, the lack of maturity is not holding anyone back; it's mostly financial. When rent is $1500+/month, how much can someone earning $20/hour (if they're lucky) siphon off to put into a car? You do the math.
I am extremely fortunate to be in a situation where I can drive and not break the bank (so far...my car is in need of replacement).
Quote from: Bruce on June 29, 2023, 04:34:11 PM
Quote from: HighwayStar on June 28, 2023, 11:59:42 PM
Kids today are not maturing in a myriad of other ways, so not surprising they cannot get it together and drive either. I doubt many really care about the environment, its more a lack of funds and maturity required to be an adult and drive. If you look at employment of youth versus years past it is also much lower, these things go hand in hand.
Although that might be the trend as a whole, the successful young people I know all drive.
OK Boomer.
Some of the most successful people I know don't drive because they are able to comfortably afford a car-free lifestyle in the city. Based on how terrible drivers are, the lack of maturity is not holding anyone back; it's mostly financial. When rent is $1500+/month, how much can someone earning $20/hour (if they're lucky) siphon off to put into a car? You do the math.
I am extremely fortunate to be in a situation where I can drive and not break the bank (so far...my car is in need of replacement).
I actually agree with him, younger generations do have a maturity problem, many of our life milestones are delayed due to a myriad of problems. Attacking him for being a boomer is not relevant to the discussion, we could easily attack you for being a millenial and that would be equally irrelevant.
The Riverside Freeway is the only proposed freeway in Tulsa that has been cancelled. The Osage Expressway north of 36th Street N was once proposed, but I don't think it has been officially canceled.
Quote from: bugo on June 29, 2023, 06:26:54 PM
The Riverside Expressway is the only proposed freeway in Tulsa that has been cancelled. The Osage Expressway north of 36th Street N was once proposed, but I don't think it has been officially canceled.
what was the course of the riverside expressway?
Quote from: Bruce on June 29, 2023, 04:34:11 PM
Quote from: HighwayStar on June 28, 2023, 11:59:42 PM
Kids today are not maturing in a myriad of other ways, so not surprising they cannot get it together and drive either. I doubt many really care about the environment, its more a lack of funds and maturity required to be an adult and drive. If you look at employment of youth versus years past it is also much lower, these things go hand in hand.
Although that might be the trend as a whole, the successful young people I know all drive.
OK Boomer.
Some of the most successful people I know don't drive because they are able to comfortably afford a car-free lifestyle in the city. Based on how terrible drivers are, the lack of maturity is not holding anyone back; it's mostly financial. When rent is $1500+/month, how much can someone earning $20/hour (if they're lucky) siphon off to put into a car? You do the math.
I am extremely fortunate to be in a situation where I can drive and not break the bank (so far...my car is in need of replacement).
Being able to comfortably afford a car free lifestyle in the city costs less than comfortably affording a car lifestyle in the city.
I find it amusing calling me a "boomer" :-D
Quote from: silverback1065 on June 29, 2023, 04:42:31 PM
Quote from: Bruce on June 29, 2023, 04:34:11 PM
Quote from: HighwayStar on June 28, 2023, 11:59:42 PM
Kids today are not maturing in a myriad of other ways, so not surprising they cannot get it together and drive either. I doubt many really care about the environment, its more a lack of funds and maturity required to be an adult and drive. If you look at employment of youth versus years past it is also much lower, these things go hand in hand.
Although that might be the trend as a whole, the successful young people I know all drive.
OK Boomer.
Some of the most successful people I know don't drive because they are able to comfortably afford a car-free lifestyle in the city. Based on how terrible drivers are, the lack of maturity is not holding anyone back; it's mostly financial. When rent is $1500+/month, how much can someone earning $20/hour (if they're lucky) siphon off to put into a car? You do the math.
I am extremely fortunate to be in a situation where I can drive and not break the bank (so far...my car is in need of replacement).
I actually agree with him, younger generations do have a maturity problem, many of our life milestones are delayed due to a myriad of problems. Attacking him for being a boomer is not relevant to the discussion, we could easily attack you for being a millenial and that would be equally irrelevant.
Yep, classic form of Ad hominem.
Lack of development with youth these days is of course ultimately a problem of their forefathers, so I am more than willing to blame X gen and the Boomers for that.
Quote from: silverback1065 on June 29, 2023, 07:32:56 PM
Quote from: bugo on June 29, 2023, 06:26:54 PM
The Riverside Freeway is the only proposed freeway in Tulsa that has been cancelled. The Osage Expressway north of 36th Street N was once proposed, but I don't think it has been officially canceled.
what was the course of the riverside expressway?
It would have begun at the southeastern corner of the Inner Dispersal Loop and followed the Midland Valley Railroad corridor down to near 31st Street, where it would follow the current Riverside Drive to at least as far south as I-44.
(https://i.imgur.com/cgAJtd5.jpg)
Quote from: HighwayStar on June 29, 2023, 07:59:54 PM
Quote from: silverback1065 on June 29, 2023, 04:42:31 PM
Quote from: Bruce on June 29, 2023, 04:34:11 PM
Quote from: HighwayStar on June 28, 2023, 11:59:42 PM
Kids today are not maturing in a myriad of other ways, so not surprising they cannot get it together and drive either. I doubt many really care about the environment, its more a lack of funds and maturity required to be an adult and drive. If you look at employment of youth versus years past it is also much lower, these things go hand in hand.
Although that might be the trend as a whole, the successful young people I know all drive.
OK Boomer.
Some of the most successful people I know don't drive because they are able to comfortably afford a car-free lifestyle in the city. Based on how terrible drivers are, the lack of maturity is not holding anyone back; it's mostly financial. When rent is $1500+/month, how much can someone earning $20/hour (if they're lucky) siphon off to put into a car? You do the math.
I am extremely fortunate to be in a situation where I can drive and not break the bank (so far...my car is in need of replacement).
I actually agree with him, younger generations do have a maturity problem, many of our life milestones are delayed due to a myriad of problems. Attacking him for being a boomer is not relevant to the discussion, we could easily attack you for being a millenial and that would be equally irrelevant.
Yep, classic form of Ad hominem.
Lack of development with youth these days is of course ultimately a problem of their forefathers, so I am more than willing to blame X gen and the Boomers for that.
But you're wrong. It's not a maturity problem. That's nonsense.
Wheeling: In the late 1950s, the WV-2 Bypass was planned to be a freeway routed along the east side of Wheeling Hill. Much of this route was finally constructed as the US-250 Freeway, which was completed in 1981 from McMechen to I-70 near the east portal of the Wheeling Tunnel. However, the portion of the WV-2 Bypass north of I-70 was never fully constructed and eventually cancelled. A portion of this route was constructed as a short piece of Super Two known as McColloch Street (unsigned along the route and posted only on the BGS). A stub exit from I-70 westbound for the WV-2 Bypass northbound was constructed that has never been used.
As best as I can tell, this is the only true Cancelled Freeway in West Virginia.
Quote from: Dirt Roads on June 29, 2023, 11:08:51 PM
Wheeling: In the late 1950s, the WV-2 Bypass was planned to be a freeway routed along the east side of Wheeling Hill. Much of this route was finally constructed as the US-250 Freeway, which was completed in 1981 from McMechen to I-70 near the east portal of the Wheeling Tunnel. However, the portion of the WV-2 Bypass north of I-70 was never fully constructed and eventually cancelled. A portion of this route was constructed as a short piece of Super Two known as McColloch Street (unsigned along the route and posted only on the BGS). A stub exit from I-70 westbound for the WV-2 Bypass northbound was constructed that has never been used.
As best as I can tell, this is the only true Cancelled Freeway in West Virginia.
Cartographic evidence of the proposed Wheeling freeways
http://sanwhmap.jpg
Tampa and St Petersburg have a few cancelled freeways, most of them never made it off the drawing board but you can find remnants of them in a few places:
- Exit 20 on I-275 was supposed to connect to a freeway going Northwest toward Clearwater but instead got truncated to 31st St S: https://goo.gl/maps/wu3PphBfC8CiCQhb8
- That same abandoned freeway is the reason there's a directional - T interchange between US 41 Alt and Tom Stuart Causeway near Madeira Beach: https://goo.gl/maps/KsJqcpbLYFXuDhcC8
- Gandy and Park Boulevard were planned to be upgraded to a freeway in St Pete but that was only partially built, leaving a partially-limited access interchange with I-275, a diamond interchange with US 19 where Gandy is the free movement (Unlike subsequent interchanges on US 19), and a wide median east of 275 that actually got built into a freeway in the mid-2010s: https://goo.gl/maps/DXUatP3qAwK63kPV7
- Dale Mabry Highway in Tampa has two interchanges at Hillsborough and Gunn Highway/Busch that were originally intended to be part of a larger system. I'm inclined to believe Dale Mabry Hillsborough would have been upgraded to an interchange anyway due to the traffic volume of the two roads, and there's an overpass for railroad tracks just south of Busch that I believe was built in the 50s/60s so it wouldn't have been at-grade as is: https://goo.gl/maps/7A5Dag8oESngNXqx9
Quote from: Hot Rod Hootenanny on June 29, 2023, 11:18:29 PM
Quote from: Dirt Roads on June 29, 2023, 11:08:51 PM
Wheeling: In the late 1950s, the WV-2 Bypass was planned to be a freeway routed along the east side of Wheeling Hill. Much of this route was finally constructed as the US-250 Freeway, which was completed in 1981 from McMechen to I-70 near the east portal of the Wheeling Tunnel. However, the portion of the WV-2 Bypass north of I-70 was never fully constructed and eventually cancelled. A portion of this route was constructed as a short piece of Super Two known as McColloch Street (unsigned along the route and posted only on the BGS). A stub exit from I-70 westbound for the WV-2 Bypass northbound was constructed that has never been used.
As best as I can tell, this is the only true Cancelled Freeway in West Virginia.
Cartographic evidence of the proposed Wheeling freeways
http://sanwhmap.jpg
That URL seems to be missing a few things.
Quote from: mgk920 on June 28, 2023, 07:30:51 PM
A very big factor is also that cars themselves are not anywhere near as fun nor easy to work on, modify and 'tinker with' as they were a few decades ago.
Mike
Yep, I feel like some manufacturers nowadays assume the bulk of their customer base is stupid and accordingly make several of their vehicles' components impossible to access, or severely simplify them.
Quote from: epzik8 on July 02, 2023, 05:06:58 PM
Quote from: mgk920 on June 28, 2023, 07:30:51 PM
A very big factor is also that cars themselves are not anywhere near as fun nor easy to work on, modify and 'tinker with' as they were a few decades ago.
Mike
Yep, I feel like some manufacturers nowadays assume the bulk of their customer base is stupid and accordingly make several of their vehicles' components impossible to access, or severely simplify them.
Eh, that is a more complex issue.
Due to sue happy lawyers, every car company has to discourage people from working on their own cars. Yes, there are also incentives from the manufacturer and dealer side, people who can't repair things take them to a dealer and pay for it or buy a new vehicle, but this is another factor on top of that.
Also, the average consumer is far less mechanically or electrically inclined because most goods have become such poor quality that repair is not worth the effort and thus other opportunities to learn the skills are missing. Kids today often don't learn to repair things, both because there is less to repair and often because no father figure is around to teach them. I've unfortunately known college age adults who could not change a light-bulb hard as that is to believe.
Add to this how hostile apartment complexes and HOAs have become to any kind of vehicle work in plain sight and you can see how DIY is becoming both less common and harder to do.
Contrast this to the 50's or 60's when people were far less removed from independent farm life, where self taught engineering and mechanical/electrical know how were more common and cars needed more maintenance, a very different age.
All that said, I don't think the lack of tinker ability on cars is a real driver behind people being unable to drive. While it has pushed up cost of ownership it has also reduced the maintenance side so whatever net effect there is can only be a smaller part of the answer.
I am just ticked with how hard it is to change my engine's air filter. On every other car I've owned, it was a simple "flip open the box, remove and replace" procedure.
Now, it's "pray you don't break the cheap plastic as you remove half the duct and hope you get it in the vertical slot just right" nonsense.
Depending on what is wrong with the car, working on new cars is as easy and sometimes easier than working on old cars. Changing sensors and solenoids and switches is very easy, but the difficult part is troubleshooting and figuring out what is wrong. If you go to the parts house to get the codes read, write them down or get a printout but don't listen to what the parts guy says it is, because it's usually wrong. Take the codes and plug them into a search engine and do a little bit of reading and you can usually diagnose the problem if it isn't something too serious.
Quote from: froggie on July 01, 2023, 09:34:53 PM
Quote from: Hot Rod Hootenanny on June 29, 2023, 11:18:29 PM
Quote from: Dirt Roads on June 29, 2023, 11:08:51 PM
Wheeling: In the late 1950s, the WV-2 Bypass was planned to be a freeway routed along the east side of Wheeling Hill. Much of this route was finally constructed as the US-250 Freeway, which was completed in 1981 from McMechen to I-70 near the east portal of the Wheeling Tunnel. However, the portion of the WV-2 Bypass north of I-70 was never fully constructed and eventually cancelled. A portion of this route was constructed as a short piece of Super Two known as McColloch Street (unsigned along the route and posted only on the BGS). A stub exit from I-70 westbound for the WV-2 Bypass northbound was constructed that has never been used.
As best as I can tell, this is the only true Cancelled Freeway in West Virginia.
Cartographic evidence of the proposed Wheeling freeways
http://sanwhmap.jpg
That URL seems to be missing a few things.
<shrugs shoulders>
http://www.roadfan.com/sanwhmap.jpg
The main two reasons that people don't "tinker" on cars any longer...
1. They are much more reliable.
2. More people have the economic means to pay someone else to fix them.
I know in Massachusetts, in spite of passage of the "right to repair" law by referenda in 2020, the automakers have been fighting it tooth and nail, to the point of even disabling some features on vehicles in the state.
https://www.insidehook.com/daily_brief/vehicles/cars-right-repair-complicated-massachusetts-law
To say the least, there is little incentive for drivers to tinker with their cars unless they are mechanically or technologically gifted. I wouldn't feel comfortable tinkering with my own car beyond some simple tasks because of the potential for compromising the computer or other features.
Quote from: Rothman on July 02, 2023, 06:08:29 PM
I am just ticked with how hard it is to change my engine's air filter. On every other car I've owned, it was a simple "flip open the box, remove and replace" procedure.
Now, it's "pray you don't break the cheap plastic as you remove half the duct and hope you get it in the vertical slot just right" nonsense.
Oh, I could not figure out how to replace the engine air filter in our Camry. I had to pay someone to replace it every time, and I was annoyed with it every time.
Quote from: Ted$8roadFan on July 03, 2023, 08:09:06 AM
I know in Massachusetts, in spite of passage of the "right to repair" law by referenda in 2020, the automakers have been fighting it tooth and nail, to the point of even disabling some features on vehicles in the state.
https://www.insidehook.com/daily_brief/vehicles/cars-right-repair-complicated-massachusetts-law
To say the least, there is little incentive for drivers to tinker with their cars unless they are mechanically or technologically gifted. I wouldn't feel comfortable tinkering with my own car beyond some simple tasks because of the potential for compromising the computer or other features.
You've bought into too many of the scare tactics.
There are a lot of things you can work on with an automobile without fear of compromising anything, computers or otherwise. The computer is needed for certain things, but there are often aftermarket solutions for that.
I use Forscan for Ford products, with that I was able to disable this seat moving feature that I didn't like, retrieve my door entry code, and programme a new key for the car (the key reprogram job ended up costing less than $30 for the blank and having it cut, the dealer quoted $257 for the same and a locksmith $159).
I haven't taken a car to a mechanic or a dealer in years and I've saved a small fortune.
Quote from: SEWIGuy on July 03, 2023, 07:47:26 AM
The main two reasons that people don't "tinker" on cars any longer...
1. They are much more reliable.
2. More people have the economic means to pay someone else to fix them.
I would mostly agree with 1, definitely do not agree with #2. (Reliability has actually declined from its peak 10-20 years ago, mainly as a result of trying to extract too much fuel economy and extraneous features that break, but it is of course still higher than say the 50's)
For most people their economic means to pay for someone else to repair them has been shrinking for decades. At the same time they have been stuck with fewer and fewer options, which is why you see so many young people unable to afford a vehicle. They have been failed by society in both teaching them how to work on vehicles and creating the economic opportunity to afford them.
My brother in law and I are going to attempt to patch weld my Wife's catalytic converter and replace a wheel bearing in about a week or so. Considering her Forester has 145,000 miles and two years left until emissions are due there is no way I want the Subaru dealer to take a crack at it first. We saved $1,400 on labor alone by replacing her AC fan clutch in her father's garage. As long as it doesn't involve the ECU I'm usually willing to try to fix something myself if it will be pricy.
IMHO, an even bigger factor in the lessening interest in 'tinkering' with cars is also the vastly increased interest among younger guys in playing on-line interactive games, although that factor might may be starting to change.
Mike
Quote from: mgk920 on July 03, 2023, 12:22:54 PM
IMHO, an even bigger factor in the lessening interest in 'tinkering' with cars is also the vastly increased interest among younger guys in playing on-line interactive games, although that factor might may be starting to change.
Mike
I would agree with that. That tends to go hand in hand with an improper upbringing as well, so all of this goes together.
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on July 03, 2023, 12:21:01 PM
My brother in law and I are going to attempt to patch weld my Wife's catalytic converter and replace a wheel bearing in about a week or so. Considering her Forester has 145,000 miles and two years left until emissions are due there is no way I want the Subaru dealer to take a crack at it first. We saved $1,400 on labor alone by replacing her AC fan clutch in her father's garage. As long as it doesn't involve the ECU I'm usually willing to try to fix something myself if it will be pricy.
Does someone own the welding equipment or are you renting?
Quote from: HighwayStar on July 03, 2023, 12:37:19 PM
Quote from: mgk920 on July 03, 2023, 12:22:54 PM
IMHO, an even bigger factor in the lessening interest in 'tinkering' with cars is also the vastly increased interest among younger guys in playing on-line interactive games, although that factor might may be starting to change.
Mike
I would agree with that. That tends to go hand in hand with an improper upbringing as well, so all of this goes together.
Wut? Online gaming means improper parenting means...people are unwilling to work on their own cars? That's a huge stretch.
My son certainly is into online gaming, but he knows how to do a few simple things on his own car.
Quote from: planxtymcgillicuddy on June 27, 2023, 07:19:43 PM
Quote from: Mileage Mike on June 26, 2023, 11:56:01 PM
No. That would be Charlotte, NC.
If I recall NC never had any freeway revolts.
Charlotte had one cancelled freeway, an upgrade of US-74 across the whole city
The 74 corridor east of central Charlotte got a ~5 mile "freeway" extension several years back; from Bojangles Arena to Idlewild Rd. However there are parts with RIRO business driveways. There are plans to continue the extension towards Matthews and Monroe.
I did a little research, and I cant find any major project cancellations in all of NC. Maybe since the state was a little late to the freeway game outside of the interstates (40, 77, 85, 95), there weren't many controversial projects.
Speaking of US 74, I remember as a small child, going to the beach from Charlotte, taking US 74 to US 17 to Ocean Isle. There were still 2-lane sections of 74 into the mid 2000's. Surprising that it has taken so long to be upgraded, since it has always been a major route for Charlotte beach-bound traffic. Even today, there is not a continuous freeway connection between Charlotte and the coast. The parallel ex-Seaboard rail line would make an excellent alternative to driving down 74, but I dream of the day CSX allows passenger service to resume. Anyway thats getting off topic....
Quote from: Rothman on July 03, 2023, 12:53:36 PM
Quote from: HighwayStar on July 03, 2023, 12:37:19 PM
Quote from: mgk920 on July 03, 2023, 12:22:54 PM
IMHO, an even bigger factor in the lessening interest in 'tinkering' with cars is also the vastly increased interest among younger guys in playing on-line interactive games, although that factor might may be starting to change.
Mike
I would agree with that. That tends to go hand in hand with an improper upbringing as well, so all of this goes together.
Wut? Online gaming means improper parenting means...people are unwilling to work on their own cars? That's a huge stretch.
My son certainly is into online gaming, but he knows how to do a few simple things on his own car.
Its not a stretch.
The kind of parenting (or lack thereof) that allows kids to waste their life playing games definitely correlates with the parenting that does not bother to teach kids how to work on vehicles.
I'm glad you feel like you have struck a balance, but a great many people don't.
Quote from: HighwayStar on July 03, 2023, 01:07:10 PM
Quote from: Rothman on July 03, 2023, 12:53:36 PM
Quote from: HighwayStar on July 03, 2023, 12:37:19 PM
Quote from: mgk920 on July 03, 2023, 12:22:54 PM
IMHO, an even bigger factor in the lessening interest in 'tinkering' with cars is also the vastly increased interest among younger guys in playing on-line interactive games, although that factor might may be starting to change.
Mike
I would agree with that. That tends to go hand in hand with an improper upbringing as well, so all of this goes together.
Wut? Online gaming means improper parenting means...people are unwilling to work on their own cars? That's a huge stretch.
My son certainly is into online gaming, but he knows how to do a few simple things on his own car.
Its not a stretch.
The kind of parenting (or lack thereof) that allows kids to waste their life playing games definitely correlates with the parenting that does not bother to teach kids how to work on vehicles.
I'm glad you feel like you have struck a balance, but a great many people don't.
On what are you basing this comment?
Quote from: Rothman on July 03, 2023, 12:51:05 PM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on July 03, 2023, 12:21:01 PM
My brother in law and I are going to attempt to patch weld my Wife's catalytic converter and replace a wheel bearing in about a week or so. Considering her Forester has 145,000 miles and two years left until emissions are due there is no way I want the Subaru dealer to take a crack at it first. We saved $1,400 on labor alone by replacing her AC fan clutch in her father's garage. As long as it doesn't involve the ECU I'm usually willing to try to fix something myself if it will be pricy.
Does someone own the welding equipment or are you renting?
My brother in law is bringing his. He's a mechanic at a Chevy dealer but has his own side business.
Quote from: fillup420 on July 03, 2023, 12:57:15 PM
Quote from: planxtymcgillicuddy on June 27, 2023, 07:19:43 PM
Quote from: Mileage Mike on June 26, 2023, 11:56:01 PM
No. That would be Charlotte, NC.
If I recall NC never had any freeway revolts.
Charlotte had one cancelled freeway, an upgrade of US-74 across the whole city
The 74 corridor east of central Charlotte got a ~5 mile "freeway" extension several years back; from Bojangles Arena to Idlewild Rd. However there are parts with RIRO business driveways. There are plans to continue the extension towards Matthews and Monroe.
I did a little research, and I cant find any major project cancellations in all of NC. Maybe since the state was a little late to the freeway game outside of the interstates (40, 77, 85, 95), there weren't many controversial projects.
Speaking of US 74, I remember as a small child, going to the beach from Charlotte, taking US 74 to US 17 to Ocean Isle. There were still 2-lane sections of 74 into the mid 2000's. Surprising that it has taken so long to be upgraded, since it has always been a major route for Charlotte beach-bound traffic. Even today, there is not a continuous freeway connection between Charlotte and the coast. The parallel ex-Seaboard rail line would make an excellent alternative to driving down 74, but I dream of the day CSX allows passenger service to resume. Anyway thats getting off topic....
Actually, there is one known cancelled project, and that was the Garden Parkway. It may have been planned as a toll road, but it still counts.
Quote from: Dirt Roads on June 29, 2023, 11:08:51 PM
Wheeling: In the late 1950s, the WV-2 Bypass was planned to be a freeway routed along the east side of Wheeling Hill. Much of this route was finally constructed as the US-250 Freeway, which was completed in 1981 from McMechen to I-70 near the east portal of the Wheeling Tunnel. However, the portion of the WV-2 Bypass north of I-70 was never fully constructed and eventually cancelled. A portion of this route was constructed as a short piece of Super Two known as McColloch Street (unsigned along the route and posted only on the BGS). A stub exit from I-70 westbound for the WV-2 Bypass northbound was constructed that has never been used.
As best as I can tell, this is the only true Cancelled Freeway in West Virginia.
Quote from: Hot Rod Hootenanny on June 29, 2023, 11:18:29 PM
Cartographic evidence of the proposed Wheeling freeways
Quote from: Hot Rod Hootenanny on July 02, 2023, 11:10:09 PM
http://www.roadfan.com/sanwhmap.jpg
Do you happen to know what is the year of that map? This shows I-70 under construction, the WV-2 Bypass under construction (incorrectly) and the I-470 Bridge as proposed. The 1968 Official State Map shows I-70 completed to the National Pike in Highland Park and under construction east of there. But it also shows the entire I-470 as proposed plus the WV-2 Bypass down to I-470 as proposed. Also, the proposed WV-2 Bypass is extended south of I-470 (but not all the way to US-250/WV-2).
Quote from: Dirt Roads on July 03, 2023, 11:45:49 PM
Quote from: Dirt Roads on June 29, 2023, 11:08:51 PM
Wheeling: In the late 1950s, the WV-2 Bypass was planned to be a freeway routed along the east side of Wheeling Hill. Much of this route was finally constructed as the US-250 Freeway, which was completed in 1981 from McMechen to I-70 near the east portal of the Wheeling Tunnel. However, the portion of the WV-2 Bypass north of I-70 was never fully constructed and eventually cancelled. A portion of this route was constructed as a short piece of Super Two known as McColloch Street (unsigned along the route and posted only on the BGS). A stub exit from I-70 westbound for the WV-2 Bypass northbound was constructed that has never been used.
As best as I can tell, this is the only true Cancelled Freeway in West Virginia.
Quote from: Hot Rod Hootenanny on June 29, 2023, 11:18:29 PM
Cartographic evidence of the proposed Wheeling freeways
Quote from: Hot Rod Hootenanny on July 02, 2023, 11:10:09 PM
http://www.roadfan.com/sanwhmap.jpg
Do you happen to know what is the year of that map? This shows I-70 under construction, the WV-2 Bypass under construction (incorrectly) and the I-470 Bridge as proposed. The 1968 Official State Map shows I-70 completed to the National Pike in Highland Park and under construction east of there. But it also shows the entire I-470 as proposed plus the WV-2 Bypass down to I-470 as proposed. Also, the proposed WV-2 Bypass is extended south of I-470 (but not all the way to US-250/WV-2).
1962. (Included in a map of Pennsylvania)