AARoads Forum

From AutoBlog:

Oregon ends its 72-year ban on self-service gasoline
You can pump your own, but the state will still require attendants as an option

QuoteIf you've visited Oregon (as I am currently), you have likely had the moment of cognitive dissonance in which you hop out of your vehicle at a gas station to fill your tank just as you do anywhere else, then discover (or remember) that you must yield the pump handle to an earnest or sometimes surly gas station attendant who intercepts you and really doesn't want you stealing their job.

That's about to change. Oregon lawmakers last week gave final approval to a bill that ends the state's ban on self-service gas pumps, a prohibition that has been in place since 1951. The change will take affect ASAP after Gov. Tina Kotek signs the bill into law. The Oregonian newspaper says this leaves New Jersey as the only state remaining to require gas station attendants.

FULL ARTICLE HERE (https://markholtz.info/2rb)

Quote from: ZLoth on June 26, 2023, 08:45:20 PM
From AutoBlog:

Oregon ends its 72-year ban on self-service gasoline
You can pump your own, but the state will still require attendants as an option

QuoteIf you've visited Oregon (as I am currently), you have likely had the moment of cognitive dissonance in which you hop out of your vehicle at a gas station to fill your tank just as you do anywhere else, then discover (or remember) that you must yield the pump handle to an earnest or sometimes surly gas station attendant who intercepts you and really doesn't want you stealing their job.

That's about to change. Oregon lawmakers last week gave final approval to a bill that ends the state's ban on self-service gas pumps, a prohibition that has been in place since 1951. The change will take affect ASAP after Gov. Tina Kotek signs the bill into law. The Oregonian newspaper says this leaves New Jersey as the only state remaining to require gas station attendants.

FULL ARTICLE HERE (https://markholtz.info/2rb)

Sad because most people are too stupid to pump gas

Major fires, highway crashes, many other problems are to come. Look at I-95 in Philadelphia. Would that tanker even be there if self service gas was banned?

Quote from: texaskdog on June 26, 2023, 08:49:11 PM

Quote from: ZLoth on June 26, 2023, 08:45:20 PM
From AutoBlog:

Oregon ends its 72-year ban on self-service gasoline
You can pump your own, but the state will still require attendants as an option

QuoteIf you've visited Oregon (as I am currently), you have likely had the moment of cognitive dissonance in which you hop out of your vehicle at a gas station to fill your tank just as you do anywhere else, then discover (or remember) that you must yield the pump handle to an earnest or sometimes surly gas station attendant who intercepts you and really doesn't want you stealing their job.

That's about to change. Oregon lawmakers last week gave final approval to a bill that ends the state's ban on self-service gas pumps, a prohibition that has been in place since 1951. The change will take affect ASAP after Gov. Tina Kotek signs the bill into law. The Oregonian newspaper says this leaves New Jersey as the only state remaining to require gas station attendants.

FULL ARTICLE HERE (https://markholtz.info/2rb)

Sad because most people are too stupid to pump gas

Sad?  My experience with NJ is that most stations are understaffed, so you're waiting on the attendant and it takes twice as long.  They usually don't use the thing to hold the gas cap and just leave it dangling and hitting the paint.  They often try to "top off" rather than just finishing when it clicks off (especially if you're just getting your tank to full for some reason, not refiling because you're already below half, an attendant on Long Island got confused when I did that and kept trying to force gas in even after the pump clicked off several times).  They pull the gas handle out so fast that I'm sure they left a drop or two of gas there.  Plus I always clean my windshield when I get gas, and I always feel like I'm imposing if I ask the attendant to do it (especially if it's busy, which is usually, because New Jersey), assuming I even have an opportunity.

Needless to say, I avoid full-service gas where possible.

Good riddance, it was an unnecessary waste of time dealing with an attendant whenever I was in the state. 

I hate having to wait for attendants too. And most of them are rude and will not give you the time of day.

Quote from: vdeane on June 26, 2023, 09:10:21 PM

Quote from: texaskdog on June 26, 2023, 08:49:11 PM

Quote from: ZLoth on June 26, 2023, 08:45:20 PM
From AutoBlog:

Oregon ends its 72-year ban on self-service gasoline
You can pump your own, but the state will still require attendants as an option

QuoteIf you've visited Oregon (as I am currently), you have likely had the moment of cognitive dissonance in which you hop out of your vehicle at a gas station to fill your tank just as you do anywhere else, then discover (or remember) that you must yield the pump handle to an earnest or sometimes surly gas station attendant who intercepts you and really doesn't want you stealing their job.

That's about to change. Oregon lawmakers last week gave final approval to a bill that ends the state's ban on self-service gas pumps, a prohibition that has been in place since 1951. The change will take affect ASAP after Gov. Tina Kotek signs the bill into law. The Oregonian newspaper says this leaves New Jersey as the only state remaining to require gas station attendants.

FULL ARTICLE HERE (https://markholtz.info/2rb)

Sad because most people are too stupid to pump gas

Sad?  My experience with NJ is that most stations are understaffed, so you're waiting on the attendant and it takes twice as long.  They usually don't use the thing to hold the gas cap and just leave it dangling and hitting the paint.  They often try to "top off" rather than just finishing when it clicks off (especially if you're just getting your tank to full for some reason, not refiling because you're already below half, an attendant on Long Island got confused when I did that and kept trying to force gas in even after the pump clicked off several times).  They pull the gas handle out so fast that I'm sure they left a drop or two of gas there.  Plus I always clean my windshield when I get gas, and I always feel like I'm imposing if I ask the attendant to do it (especially if it's busy, which is usually, because New Jersey), assuming I even have an opportunity.

Needless to say, I avoid full-service gas where possible.

Other than the topping off, all is true.  I've noticed lately that the majority of attendants aren't topping off the fuel like had been common in the past. For me, I use the Fuelly app to measure my fuel mileage, and that topping off would mess up the figures (albeit not by much). 

A lot of New Jerseyians, in their quest to keep full service, will say how attendants provide employment.  From what I can tell, the turnover is extremely high as I rarely see the same person twice.  I'm sure being outdoors around gas pumps for hours on end in various weather conditions, filling up cars with exhaust problems, loud mufflers and other issues is not the healthiest job one can have.   

In self-serve states, nearly every pump will be open at all times.  But in NJ, if an attendant goes on break, or doesn't show up, that's usually 4 pumps that will be closed off since no one can staff them.  And the attendant doesn't know each and every car.  Often times, they won't tighten the cap as much as they should, because some cars now only require a quick turn of the cap, not several rotations to put it on properly.

NJ, being a high tax state, people tend to move out of the state after they retire, or whenever they can get a job elsewhere.   I've yet to hear one person say they moved back to the state because they couldn't stand pumping their own fuel.  These people, living in the state for decades, probably realized in two weeks that pumping their own gas really isn't that big of a deal.  And I wonder if they ever went on vacation and had to fuel up on the road, or get a rental car.  Surely they had to pump gas before.

Quote from: Max Rockatansky on June 26, 2023, 10:18:53 PM
Good riddance, it was an unnecessary waste of time dealing with an attendant whenever I was in the state. 

I usually paid higher prices to fill up in Yreka or Alturas just to avoid one additional episode of this irritation.

Good riddance is right.

Regarding the comments from vdeane and jeffandnicole about topping off, I have not bought gas in New Jersey in over 20 years, but I wonder, do they have the "clean air" nozzles on their gas pumps? Here in Northern Virginia, within the past ten years a fair number of gas pumps have been of a design that's supposed to reduce the amount of escaping vapors and they generally have an admonition, either on the pump itself or on a sticker attached to the machine, that tells you (among other things) not to top off. A lot of people dislike these pumps because they have a sort of "collar" that covers the gas tank opening and you sort of have to lock it into place (see image below), which means you can't just pull the pump out when you're done. (Many stations seem to be phasing these out, but I've noticed that even the nozzles that are not of this design still have the "DO NOT TOP OFF" admonition printed on the handle.)

So it makes me wonder whether the New Jersey attendants vdeane and jeffandnicole mention might be using those sorts of pumps.

This is the sort of sticker I'm referring to:

(https://zoomnsupply.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/01/Gas-Station-Clean-Air-Nozzle-Instructions-3x6-Black-on-White-01.jpg)

Quote from: vdeane on June 26, 2023, 09:10:21 PM
They often try to "top off" rather than just finishing when it clicks off

Do you tell them not to?  In Mexico, where all gas stations are full service, I simply tell the pump jockey to only fill it until the pump clicks off–and not to top it off after that.  Occasionally one forgets my instructions, but most remember just fine.

While I admit having mandatory fuel attendants is weird, I have never had any particular issues buying gas in Oregon or New Jersey.

Quote from: texaskdog on June 26, 2023, 08:49:11 PM
Sad because most people are too stupid to pump gas

Zoolander is only a movie.

The only times I top off any more are the times when I'm renting a car and know the rental company is gonna charge me for every drop of gas they can squeeze in after I drop it off. I certainly don't need to think about rounding up to the nearest whole dollar when I'm not paying cash.

Quote from: abefroman329 on June 27, 2023, 02:20:31 PM
The only times I top off any more are the times when I'm renting a car and know the rental company is gonna charge me for every drop of gas they can squeeze in after I drop it off. I certainly don't need to think about rounding up to the nearest whole dollar when I'm not paying cash.

On our Mexico trips, I'm usually paying cash for all expenses, and I still don't top off.  When I go back inside for change, I just end up with some coins as well as bills, no big deal.  This is my usual practice because it's the simplest way I can think of to make my fuel economy log somewhat reliable:  even though I suspect different pumps click off at different full-ness-es, I figure it's as good a constant as any.

I almost always top off to round to the next dollar. Or at least the next quarter-dollar. Doesn't matter if it's $N.07 or $N.97. I will most often round to the next whole dollar, but occasionally will stop at 25, 50, or 75 cents.

Quote from: epzik8 on June 27, 2023, 02:09:03 PM

Quote from: texaskdog on June 26, 2023, 08:49:11 PM
Sad because most people are too stupid to pump gas

Zoolander is only a movie.

I take it you've never given anyone Blue Steel?

That is good news, if true.  My daughter lives in Oregon, and the first time I visited that state, I saw how ridiculous their system is.  It wasn't like the old full-service stations of my childhood.  I still had to pay at the pump for my fuel, but I then had to hand the pump to this person standing around.  It was awkward and cumbersome, and made no sense.  I almost drove across the Columbia River to Washington State just so I could pump my own gas and not have to put up with that B.S.

Quote from: RoadWarrior56 on June 27, 2023, 03:04:48 PM
I saw how ridiculous their system is.  It wasn't like the old full-service stations of my childhood.  I still had to pay at the pump for my fuel, but I then had to hand the pump to this person standing around.  It was awkward and cumbersome, and made no sense.

Oh wow, really?  At least in Mexico, the pump jockey handles payment.  No need to even get out of your car at all.

Quote from: kphoger on June 27, 2023, 03:15:21 PM

Quote from: RoadWarrior56 on June 27, 2023, 03:04:48 PM
I saw how ridiculous their system is.  It wasn't like the old full-service stations of my childhood.  I still had to pay at the pump for my fuel, but I then had to hand the pump to this person standing around.  It was awkward and cumbersome, and made no sense.

Oh wow, really?  At least in Mexico, the pump jockey handles payment.  No need to even get out of your car at all.

There is a school of thought that any time credit card leaves owner hands and sight, there is a risk for card data to be compromised. I am a bit reluctant to do that at restaurants, but that is sort of acceptable. Although pay at the table becomes more common.  Call me paranoiac, but I would hesitate to hand over my card to someone abroad. And I rarely have enough cash for a full tank on me (at least if I am close to home)

Quote from: kalvado on June 27, 2023, 03:29:21 PM
There is a school of thought that any time credit card leaves owner hands and sight, there is a risk for card data to be compromised. I am a bit reluctant to do that at restaurants, but that is sort of acceptable. Although pay at the table becomes more common.  Call me paranoiac, but I would hesitate to hand over my card to someone abroad. And I rarely have enough cash for a full tank on me (at least if I am close to home)

Oh, totally.  My best friend has only lived in Mexico for a few years now, and he's had gas stations double-charge or fraud-charge his card on multiple occasions during that time.  It's a big red flag when you weren't even in that town on that date.

As I said, I try to go cash-only while I'm there.  That's one of the reasons.

Quote from: kphoger on June 27, 2023, 03:31:33 PM

Quote from: kalvado on June 27, 2023, 03:29:21 PM
There is a school of thought that any time credit card leaves owner hands and sight, there is a risk for card data to be compromised. I am a bit reluctant to do that at restaurants, but that is sort of acceptable. Although pay at the table becomes more common.  Call me paranoiac, but I would hesitate to hand over my card to someone abroad. And I rarely have enough cash for a full tank on me (at least if I am close to home)

Oh, totally.  My best friend has only lived in Mexico for a few years now, and he's had gas stations double-charge or fraud-charge his card on multiple occasions during that time.  It's a big red flag when you weren't even in that town on that date...

I've also been told that it's important in Mexico to watch the pump to make sure the attendant resets it to zero before he starts pumping gas and to say "cero, por favor" if he fails to do so. That hasn't been a problem whenever I've gotten gas in Mexico (Cozumel and Playa del Carmen) because they had newer pumps that reset when the attendant lifted the handle to turn the pump on, but maybe elsewhere in less highly touristed areas they have older pumps that work differently.

Quote from: 1995hoo on June 27, 2023, 03:33:48 PM
I've also been told that it's important in Mexico to watch the pump to make sure the attendant resets it to zero before he starts pumping gas and to say "cero, por favor" if he fails to do so. That hasn't been a problem whenever I've gotten gas in Mexico (Cozumel and Playa del Carmen) because they had newer pumps that reset when the attendant lifted the handle to turn the pump on, but maybe elsewhere in less highly touristed areas they have older pumps that work differently.

I've read that multiple times as well, although I've never personally seen a pump that wasn't reset to zero first.  But I'd say somewhere around one-third of all pump jockeys I've dealt with have made sure I saw the "ceros" on the pump before commencing with the fill-up.

Good riddance. When I visited Oregon some years back, mandatory full-service came off to me as very nanny state-ish.  I deliberately re-filled my rental car in Vancouver WA before returning it to the PDX airport just to avoid that idiocy.

Wasn't the idea more about the mandate creating jobs than being a safety thing?

About time. Though this has been coming ever since they started allowing overnight self-serve in rural counties nearly a decade ago. COVID and the resulting low unemployment rate just hastened things. It should also be noted that they have lifted the self-serve ban each of the past few summers during heat waves and bad smoke.

Now, I'm not going to pay 20 cents more a gallon to avoid full service. But when the price is close, forget it.

Quote from: Max Rockatansky on June 27, 2023, 11:24:22 PM
Wasn't the idea more about the mandate creating jobs than being a safety thing?

At least the stated reason. Pretty sure it was to create jobs during the energy crisis and associated recession. NJ is allegedly for safety, but there have been some reliable sources claiming that one was due to corruption.

Perfect timing since I will be in Oregon next month for a few days...

Quote from: abefroman329 on June 27, 2023, 02:20:31 PM
The only times I top off any more are the times when I'm renting a car and know the rental company is gonna charge me for every drop of gas they can squeeze in after I drop it off.

Curious if that has that actually happened to you.  I've never been charged for gas when returning a rental car, and I usually would fill up at least a few miles away to avoid the airport area price differences, and don't top off after the pump clicks off.

When I've rented from Enterprise locally, not airport locations, it normally doesn't start out with a full tank.  They just mark the fuel level when you take the car and if it's reasonably close to the same level on return they don't seem to care.

First time I was in Oregon back in the late 90's, I had no idea they had this law.  When I got out and started to approach the pump, the attendant went crazy.  It's a long time ago, but I recall being shocked at how big a deal he was making of it, especially when I said I don't mind pumping it myself.  You would have thought if I touched the pump the station was instantly going to blow up or something.

Glad to hear they're ditching it.

While I've never been to Oregon, I have been to New Jersey, the last state to have full-service gas. I can't recall having any major issues while paying by card (easier than cash). A couple of things that I noticed, however, were long lines, especially at service areas on the NJTP and the Garden State Parkway, and overmatched attendants. Granted there are lots of travelers and the service areas seem like they're at capacity; perhaps it's different off-highway. It was enough to make me gas up in either Pennsylvania or Delaware. I'm sure Oregon residents will soon wonder what the big deal was in preserving full-serve only for so long.

Been to a few Costco gas stations in Oregon, which get busy. The attendants were actually a benefit there since they could swipe the membership card and/or payment cards faster than a fumbling motorist would. Of course having enough attendants on hand is a luxury that a place like Costco could afford.

Quote from: Jim on June 28, 2023, 03:21:04 AM

Quote from: abefroman329 on June 27, 2023, 02:20:31 PM
The only times I top off any more are the times when I'm renting a car and know the rental company is gonna charge me for every drop of gas they can squeeze in after I drop it off.

Curious if that has that actually happened to you.  I've never been charged for gas when returning a rental car, and I usually would fill up at least a few miles away to avoid the airport area price differences, and don't top off after the pump clicks off.

When I've rented from Enterprise locally, not airport locations, it normally doesn't start out with a full tank.  They just mark the fuel level when you take the car and if it's reasonably close to the same level on return they don't seem to care.

I was charged once for not filling up the gas tank, but it was a noticeable yet minor amount on the gas gauge.  I was hurrying to get back to an airport and just forgot.

Quote from: Ted$8roadFan on June 28, 2023, 05:31:25 AM
While I've never been to Oregon, I have been to New Jersey, the last state to have full-service gas. I can't recall having any major issues while paying by card (easier than cash). A couple of things that I noticed, however, were long lines, especially at service areas on the NJTP and the Garden State Parkway, and overmatched attendants. Granted there are lots of travelers and the service areas seem like they're at capacity; perhaps it's different off-highway. It was enough to make me gas up in either Pennsylvania or Delaware. I'm sure Oregon residents will soon wonder what the big deal was in preserving full-serve only for so long.

One thing I noted in New Jersey at the Turnpike service plazas was how unbalanced the lines often were because the attendants demanded the fuel filler door be on the same side as the pumps. Because more vehicles have it on the driver's side, that meant longer lines at the left-side pumps because they also went berserk if anyone tried to loop around to approach from the opposite direction or do a three-point turn to back in on the other side (both of which are things I've often done at crowded gas stations outside New Jersey in order to avoid waiting on line).

Amusingly one time on base someone on the military side suggested we use attendants after a customer yanked pump by mistaken.  Typically the cost to repair for one of our pumps (in California) costs between $450-$1,400.  Considering the profit margin on gas is typically about $0.05-$0.10 a gallon it would take quite some time for attendant intervention to recoup our costs.  Worth noting, our station is ten pumps and does not have a mini-mart.  When the station is busy more than one attendant would be necessary. 

Quote from: Rothman on June 28, 2023, 06:54:56 AM

Quote from: Jim on June 28, 2023, 03:21:04 AM

Quote from: abefroman329 on June 27, 2023, 02:20:31 PM
The only times I top off any more are the times when I'm renting a car and know the rental company is gonna charge me for every drop of gas they can squeeze in after I drop it off.

Curious if that has that actually happened to you.  I've never been charged for gas when returning a rental car, and I usually would fill up at least a few miles away to avoid the airport area price differences, and don't top off after the pump clicks off.

When I've rented from Enterprise locally, not airport locations, it normally doesn't start out with a full tank.  They just mark the fuel level when you take the car and if it's reasonably close to the same level on return they don't seem to care.

I was charged once for not filling up the gas tank, but it was a noticeable yet minor amount on the gas gauge.  I was hurrying to get back to an airport and just forgot.

Avis has become a lot pickier in the last year or so, because they can read the gas tank remotely on my vehicles now, so I've had some charges that claimed my tank was 0.2 gallon than full (although the needle was pointing at full). Usually I fill up 5-10 miles from the airport, although there's some fairly reliable places that are near airports, but you never know if half the pumps are out of order or the pumps are packed.

In many cases, there isn't a gas station nearby, or not a terribly conveniently located one. If it's less than half a gallon, I just call them and they wipe off the charge. But that also another 10-20 minutes out of my day to fight a $3-4 charge.

I guess this also makes up for the 2-3 occasions in which I forgot to fill up and they didn't charge me for it. Probably because the attendant didn't care or notice at 4am.

Quote from: Jim on June 28, 2023, 03:21:04 AMCurious if that has that actually happened to you.

It has.  Back in 2015, I rented from Avis at the Philly airport for business, and returned the car with a full tank of gas.  Avis was able to squeeze, no exaggeration, about $1.50 in gas into the tank and charged me for it.

Had that happen to me at SeaTac with Hertz.  The returns attendant tried to surcharge me for not filling up because they could pump about $1 into the car.  The attendant made the mistake of getting upset at me (called me cheap) and the duty manager ended waiving the surcharge.  What confused me was how the attendant came to the conclusion I was being cheap when the rental was paid for a government travel card, none of it was my money.

Quote from: Max Rockatansky on June 27, 2023, 11:24:22 PM
Wasn't the idea more about the mandate creating jobs than being a safety thing?

The Oregon state law states many reasons for it, most of them safety related, but it has one line about providing jobs.

480.315 Policy. The Legislative Assembly declares that, except as provided in ORS 480.345 to 480.385, it is in the public interest to maintain a prohibition on the self-service dispensing of Class 1 flammable liquids at retail. The Legislative Assembly finds and declares that:

      (1) The dispensing of Class 1 flammable liquids by dispensers properly trained in appropriate safety procedures reduces fire hazards directly associated with the dispensing of Class 1 flammable liquids;

      (2) Appropriate safety standards often are unenforceable at retail self-service stations in other states because cashiers are often unable to maintain a clear view of and give undivided attention to the dispensing of Class 1 flammable liquids by customers;

      (3) Higher liability insurance rates charged to retail self-service stations reflect the dangers posed to customers when they leave their vehicles to dispense Class 1 flammable liquids, such as the increased risk of crime and the increased risk of personal injury resulting from slipping on slick surfaces;

      (4) The dangers of crime and slick surfaces described in subsection (3) of this section are enhanced because Oregon's weather is uniquely adverse, causing wet pavement and reduced visibility;

      (5) The dangers described in subsection (3) of this section are heightened when the customer is a senior citizen or has a disability, especially if the customer uses a mobility aid, such as a wheelchair, walker, cane or crutches;

      (6) Attempts by other states to require the providing of aid to senior citizens and persons with disabilities in the self-service dispensing of Class 1 flammable liquids at retail have failed, and therefore, senior citizens and persons with disabilities must pay the higher costs of full service;

      (7) Exposure to toxic fumes represents a health hazard to customers dispensing Class 1 flammable liquids;

      (8) The hazard described in subsection (7) of this section is heightened when the customer is pregnant;

      (9) The exposure to Class 1 flammable liquids through dispensing should, in general, be limited to as few individuals as possible, such as gasoline station owners and their employees or other trained and certified dispensers;

      (10) The typical practice of charging significantly higher prices for full-service fuel dispensing in states where self-service is permitted at retail:

      (a) Discriminates against customers with lower incomes, who are under greater economic pressure to subject themselves to the inconvenience and hazards of self-service;

      (b) Discriminates against customers who are elderly or have disabilities who are unable to serve themselves and so must pay the significantly higher prices; and

      (c) Increases self-service dispensing and thereby decreases maintenance checks by attendants, which results in neglect of maintenance, endangering both the customer and other motorists and resulting in unnecessary and costly repairs;

      (11) The increased use of self-service at retail in other states has contributed to diminishing the availability of automotive repair facilities at gasoline stations;

      (12) Self-service dispensing at retail in other states does not provide a sustained reduction in fuel prices charged to customers;

      (13) A general prohibition of self-service dispensing of Class 1 flammable liquids by the general public promotes public welfare by providing increased safety and convenience without causing economic harm to the public in general;

      (14) Self-service dispensing at retail contributes to unemployment, particularly among young people;

      (15) Self-service dispensing at retail presents a health hazard and unreasonable discomfort to persons with disabilities, elderly persons, small children and those susceptible to respiratory diseases;

      (16) The federal Americans with Disabilities Act, Public Law 101-336, requires that equal access be provided to persons with disabilities at retail gasoline stations; and

      (17) Small children left unattended when customers leave to make payment at retail self-service stations creates a dangerous situation.

It's too dangerous for you to spend 10 minutes every month filling your gas because of exposure to gasoline fumes, but having a teenager do it for 20 hours a week? Perfectly fine!

Quote from: Max Rockatansky on June 28, 2023, 10:30:43 AM
Had that happen to me at SeaTac with Hertz.  The returns attendant tried to surcharge me for not filling up because they could pump about $1 into the car.  The attendant made the mistake of getting upset at me (called me cheap) and the duty manager ended waiving the surcharge.  What confused me was how the attendant came to the conclusion I was being cheap when the rental was paid for a government travel card, none of it was my money.

I can't wait until they hit us for electrical surcharges because we returned their EVs at 97% charged...

Quote from: formulanone on June 28, 2023, 12:08:51 PM

Quote from: Max Rockatansky on June 28, 2023, 10:30:43 AM
Had that happen to me at SeaTac with Hertz.  The returns attendant tried to surcharge me for not filling up because they could pump about $1 into the car.  The attendant made the mistake of getting upset at me (called me cheap) and the duty manager ended waiving the surcharge.  What confused me was how the attendant came to the conclusion I was being cheap when the rental was paid for a government travel card, none of it was my money.

I can't wait until they hit us for electrical surcharges because we returned their EVs at 97% charged...

Hasn't happened yet - I rented an EV from Hertz at LaGuardia, returned it to a local branch in Brooklyn the next day, not having charged it at all, and they didn't charge me for that.

Once it's as easy to find EV charging stations that are open to the public as it is to find a gas station, though, I'm sure that will change.

I rented a Tesla from Hertz in Fort Lauderdale in January. It wasn't entirely clear on whether you had to charge it before returning it–the information they provided seemed to be contradictory–but because there's a Supercharger near our relatives' house, we stopped there en route to the airport (it was not free to use; Hertz passed along the charge to my American Express card and the amount they charged me matched the amount the car's display quoted). It so happened that because it doesn't charge to 100%, we got to the airport with around 75% battery life remaining, but that was the amount of charge it had when we picked up the vehicle and they didn't impose a fee.

EVs shouldn't be consistently charged to 100% anyway (and many charging stations won't even let you get close if there's potential for spot idling). The last bit to get to 100% takes longer to charge due to the way that the battery works.

Quote from: Bruce on June 28, 2023, 01:30:46 PM
EVs shouldn't be consistently charged to 100% anyway (and many charging stations won't even let you get close if there's potential for spot idling). The last bit to get to 100% takes longer to charge due to the way that the battery works.

At least on my laptop, having it hit 100% and immediately unplugging causes it start going down instantly, while leaving it at 100% for a while keeps it at 100% for 15-20 minutes of use after unplugging, as if "100%" isn't actually 100%. Are cars not the same way?

Quote from: 1 on June 28, 2023, 01:35:28 PM

Quote from: Bruce on June 28, 2023, 01:30:46 PM
EVs shouldn't be consistently charged to 100% anyway (and many charging stations won't even let you get close if there's potential for spot idling). The last bit to get to 100% takes longer to charge due to the way that the battery works.

At least on my laptop, having it hit 100% and immediately unplugging causes it start going down instantly, while leaving it at 100% for a while keeps it at 100% for 15-20 minutes of use after unplugging, as if "100%" isn't actually 100%. Are cars not the same way?

All smartphones I've owned, two iPhones, two LG phones, and a Samsung, all have operated the same way with the 100%+ charge level. Using apps to track bicycle rides test this oddity by not draining battery for 1 hr, then draining 10% per hour after.

Cars seem to work more accurately from what I've seen and read.

Quote from: Bruce on June 28, 2023, 01:30:46 PM
EVs shouldn't be consistently charged to 100% anyway (and many charging stations won't even let you get close if there's potential for spot idling). The last bit to get to 100% takes longer to charge due to the way that the battery works.

Theres a separate list of Ts and Cs for EVs and it does stipulate the battery level the car needs to be returned at, but it's less than 100%.

About time. I was born in Oregon, and learned to drive there (so my first ~4 years of driving mostly took place in Oregon). Always hated getting gas in Oregon. And it got way worse after Covid, since a lot of stations struggled to keep enough staff. I've been to more than one gas station where half the pumps are closed off, and overall, had countless times where I had to wait 10-15 minutes to get gas where there would be no delay in any other state.

Fred Meyer (Kroger) gas stations are probably the best (worst) example. They tend to get crowded in Oregon, often have pumps closed (post covid anyways), and the attendants are often slow. The Bend one in particular wasted a lot of my time in high school. I kept going there because the price was a lot cheaper (though there are a few other reasonably priced stations in Bend if you know where to go). I have never had to wait to get gas at Fred Meyer in Idaho or Washington.

Speaking as someone who travels semi-regularly to Mexico, where all gas stations are full-service only, I don't understand people's hatred of full-service gas stations.  So someone else pumps your gas instead of you.  What's the big deal?

Quote from: kphoger on June 28, 2023, 06:37:07 PMSpeaking as someone who travels semi-regularly to Mexico, where all gas stations are full-service only, I don't understand people's hatred of full-service gas stations.  So someone else pumps your gas instead of you.  What's the big deal?

It tends to bother people (like me) who have a particular routine they follow when they refuel, for things like interacting with the pump interface, stowing the gas cap, putting the pump nozzle back in the holder (which triggers the receipt prompt for many/most/all? pump designs), replacing the gas cap, and readying the car to pull away.  And if there are unusual issues in play that the owner knows of but a gas jockey wouldn't, such as a tank that causes pump shutoffs to trip prematurely, having to have gas pumped by someone else greatly magnifies the hassle factor.

TL;DR--we don't like having our cars messed with.

I don't really care for Mexico's ban on self-service gasoline, either, but I put up with it to avoid being the Ugly American abroad.  (Self-service is the norm in the UK and Ireland, though I've never seen any pumps with hold-open detents there and suspect they may not be legal in either country.)

Quote from: kphoger on June 28, 2023, 06:37:07 PM
Speaking as someone who travels semi-regularly to Mexico, where all gas stations are full-service only, I don't understand people's hatred of full-service gas stations.  So someone else pumps your gas instead of you.  What's the big deal?

In Mexico (and other countries I've been to with full service fueling) I've never had to wait 10 minutes to get a pump attendant is the difference, or wait a long period of time for pumps to open up while one attendant tries to man a dozen gas pumps. I didn't mind full-service in rural Oregon away from the interstate when it existed, but otherwise it's often been a pain in the ass in urban Oregon (or right off the interstate) and New Jersey.

Quote from: epzik8 on June 27, 2023, 02:09:03 PM

Quote from: texaskdog on June 26, 2023, 08:49:11 PM
Sad because most people are too stupid to pump gas

Zoolander is only a movie.

Lets see I've seen kids pumping gas, people pumping gas while smoking, numerous other things....

Quote from: kphoger on June 28, 2023, 06:37:07 PM
Speaking as someone who travels semi-regularly to Mexico, where all gas stations are full-service only, I don't understand people's hatred of full-service gas stations.  So someone else pumps your gas instead of you.  What's the big deal?

Some of us just don't care for unnecessary human interaction with a stranger.  For me that's the reason, nothing more grandiose than that. 

Quote from: J N Winkler on June 28, 2023, 07:01:54 PM

Quote from: kphoger on June 28, 2023, 06:37:07 PMSpeaking as someone who travels semi-regularly to Mexico, where all gas stations are full-service only, I don't understand people's hatred of full-service gas stations.  So someone else pumps your gas instead of you.  What's the big deal?

It tends to bother people (like me) who have a particular routine they follow when they refuel, for things like interacting with the pump interface, stowing the gas cap, putting the pump nozzle back in the holder (which triggers the receipt prompt for many/most/all? pump designs), replacing the gas cap, and readying the car to pull away.  And if there are unusual issues in play that the owner knows of but a gas jockey wouldn't, such as a tank that causes pump shutoffs to trip prematurely, having to have gas pumped by someone else greatly magnifies the hassle factor.

TL;DR--we don't like having our cars messed with.

I don't really care for Mexico's ban on self-service gasoline, either, but I put up with it to avoid being the Ugly American abroad.  (Self-service is the norm in the UK and Ireland, though I've never seen any pumps with hold-open detents there and suspect they may not be legal in either country.)

Huh.  Needing to feel the routine with the pump nozzle's interesting.

For me, full service just feels like it takes longer, whether that's actually true or not.  I also don't like the idea of the gas cap banging against the side of my car.

Here in Massachusetts, about 1 in 10 stations are full service. This 1 in 10 includes a few that give you the option of either (Shell next to exit 3 on MA 213 is one), but full serve costs more.

Exactly one station that I know of will do more than pump gas – one in downtown Wakefield checked tire pressure.

I've never been to a full-service station in the US, but in South Africa it's the norm.

At least, with full service, I don't have to worry about making two trips inside to wait in line if paying cash (once to prepay, once to get change).  And, if the receipt printer isn't working at the pump, I don't have to make a trip inside to wait in line.  I've never been to Oregon or New Jersey but, at least in Mexico, that's all handled by the pump jockey.

As for lines at the pumps...  Yeah, that would suck.  One would think that, at the busiest times of day, they'd staff all of the pumps.  Is that not the case?

I know of exactly two full service stations.  Both Exxon and both 50 or 60 year old buildings, located in the rich while landlords neighborhoods of Huntington and Charleston.  They fill up the rich white widows cars once a month or so, so they can drive to their "church" and feel morally superior to me and other common people.  They charge about $1 more than other stations. 

I don't know

Quite a few full-service stations in the highlands part of the state persisted until fairly recently. Some were Exxon, while others were BEST. I've noticed a number of rural stations closing in recent years, including all of those full-service stations.

While I appreciate the service of a full-service station, I prefer to do it myself. I don't like it when someone doesn't put the gas cap in the holder and just drops it onto the hardened plastic (or worse: paint). I don't like it when someone drips gasoline onto the same hardened plastic that I then have to clean up. And I don't like it when someone takes my card and swipes it into some unknown terminal (not always at the pump). I've had fraudulent charges happen that way.

Quote from: kphoger on June 29, 2023, 10:55:49 AMAt least, with full service, I don't have to worry about making two trips inside to wait in line if paying cash (once to prepay, once to get change).  And, if the receipt printer isn't working at the pump, I don't have to make a trip inside to wait in line.  I've never been to Oregon or New Jersey but, at least in Mexico, that's all handled by the pump jockey.

I have been to both states, but have always paid for fuel in each with a credit card, so it's been 100% about having to let someone else do stuff with my car.

One of the trips to Oregon was with a 1986 Nissan Maxima that needed to have the fuel pumped in slowly to avoid tripping the shutoff prematurely.  I came out of the desert almost on fumes, only for a gas jockey to hand me a receipt for two gallons' worth of fuel, thinking he was going to send me on my way.  The tank had a nominal capacity of 15.5 gallons.  It took a lot longer to straighten that out than it would have if I had just been left alone to pump my own gas.

If the receipt printer at the pump doesn't work, I just take pictures of the pump readouts with my smartphone camera.

Quote from: kphoger on June 29, 2023, 10:55:49 AMAs for lines at the pumps...  Yeah, that would suck.  One would think that, at the busiest times of day, they'd staff all of the pumps.  Is that not the case?

The issue is more that, with a ban on self-service in place, staffing becomes another reason you might have to wait at a busy station.  I had the experience Corco describes at a station off I-5 between Portland and Salem--it did not take that long, but the jockey was almost running around the apron tending to refueling vehicles.

Quote from: kphoger on June 29, 2023, 10:55:49 AM
At least, with full service, I don't have to worry about making two trips inside to wait in line if paying cash (once to prepay, once to get change).  And, if the receipt printer isn't working at the pump, I don't have to make a trip inside to wait in line.  I've never been to Oregon or New Jersey but, at least in Mexico, that's all handled by the pump jockey.

As for lines at the pumps...  Yeah, that would suck.  One would think that, at the busiest times of day, they'd staff all of the pumps.  Is that not the case?

I've only filled up in NJ a handful of times (much easier to just fill up in a neighboring state, if you can).

Didn't have to leave the car. Pump jockey took my card, ran it, and brought the receipt for me to sign.

Lines were often long at service plazas, but who knows how much shorter they would have been if self-serve was an option (each jockey seemed to be assigned to 2-4 pumps). The Turnpike is a well-traveled road, especially on weekends in the summer. And heaven knows I've waited in long lines at Costco, which is self-serve.

One unexpected issue I ran into in NJ that no one has brought up: The gas stations that can't justify the labor costs of staying open all night, don't, and it's not like they can close the station and leave the pumps and the credit card readers on like I've seen in other places.

Just ended up at a Kwik Fill and forgot they still do full serve here in NY.

Quote from: Max Rockatansky on June 28, 2023, 11:43:57 PM

Quote from: kphoger on June 28, 2023, 06:37:07 PM
Speaking as someone who travels semi-regularly to Mexico, where all gas stations are full-service only, I don't understand people's hatred of full-service gas stations.  So someone else pumps your gas instead of you.  What's the big deal?

Some of us just don't care for unnecessary human interaction with a stranger.  For me that's the reason, nothing more grandiose than that. 

Reminds me of the King of the Hill episode where Hank hated going to the BBQ place that he loved because he had to sit at a table with strangers.

Quote from: texaskdog on July 01, 2023, 12:29:27 PM

Quote from: Max Rockatansky on June 28, 2023, 11:43:57 PM

Quote from: kphoger on June 28, 2023, 06:37:07 PM
Speaking as someone who travels semi-regularly to Mexico, where all gas stations are full-service only, I don't understand people's hatred of full-service gas stations.  So someone else pumps your gas instead of you.  What's the big deal?

Some of us just don't care for unnecessary human interaction with a stranger.  For me that's the reason, nothing more grandiose than that. 

Reminds me of the King of the Hill episode where Hank hated going to the BBQ place that he loved because he had to sit at a table with strangers.

Which, come to think of it, was pretty out-of-character for a man who sells propane and propane accessories.

Honestly, I think a full-service station for EVs might make sense for some high-demand locations. An unfamiliar charging setup can confuse people and waste precious time, plus a jockey would be able to kick out an idle vehicle that has already charged up. I tried two different charging stations in Oregon this weekend and both were a pain to set up properly, between downloading yet another app, entering payment systems, fiddling with the adapter, and making sure it was optimized.

Quote from: Bruce on July 02, 2023, 02:27:07 AM
Honestly, I think a full-service station for EVs might make sense for some high-demand locations. An unfamiliar charging setup can confuse people and waste precious time, plus a jockey would be able to kick out an idle vehicle that has already charged up. I tried two different charging stations in Oregon this weekend and both were a pain to set up properly, between downloading yet another app, entering payment systems, fiddling with the adapter, and making sure it was optimized.

There was a woman who had rented an EV and wss trying to charge it near here at a station in a parking lot.  She got the nozzle into the outlet on her car, but couldn't get it off.  Neither could me nor my wife.

EVs are just not ready for prime time.

There was a whole article detailing the differences in charging standards and why Tesla's NACS is becoming the gold standard (and why GM, Nissan, Ford, and others are adopting it). In short, NACS's connectors aren't plug-heavy and the weight of the connector won't damage the pins over time, unlike CCS plugs. Tesla also maintains their Superchargers very well and very few of the units are defective or off-line, unlike what you'll find for Electrify America and other brands.

The EV market as a whole just needs to consolidate a standard and run with it.  The stories I'm seeing now remind me of what I used to read about (albeit to a lesser extent) when gasoline wasn't standardized in the early 20th century.

Quote from: seicer on July 02, 2023, 10:28:54 AM
There was a whole article detailing the differences in charging standards and why Tesla's NACS is becoming the gold standard (and why GM, Nissan, Ford, and others are adopting it). In short, NACS's connectors aren't plug-heavy and the weight of the connector won't damage the pins over time, unlike CCS plugs. Tesla also maintains their Superchargers very well and very few of the units are defective or off-line, unlike what you'll find for Electrify America and other brands.

Also don't hear about Tesla ones frying EV batteries like Electrify America seems to have an occasional habit of doing.

Quote from: Max Rockatansky on July 02, 2023, 11:22:09 AM
The EV market as a whole just needs to consolidate a standard and run with it.  The stories I'm seeing now remind me of what I used to read about (albeit to a lesser extent) when gasoline wasn't standardized in the early 20th century.

Or VHS versus Beta, Mac versus PC, Blu-ray versus HD DVD, SACD versus DVD-Audio (ok, both of those were relegated to niche markets)...it seems like they never learn from past format wars. In this case it does underscore one of the reasons why I've said I want to wait as long as possible before entering the car market–things are changing very quickly, and this particular development is an extremely significant one.

Quote from: Bruce on July 02, 2023, 02:27:07 AM
Honestly, I think a full-service station for EVs might make sense for some high-demand locations. An unfamiliar charging setup can confuse people and waste precious time, plus a jockey would be able to kick out an idle vehicle that has already charged up. I tried two different charging stations in Oregon this weekend and both were a pain to set up properly, between downloading yet another app, entering payment systems, fiddling with the adapter, and making sure it was optimized.

Did the station not have the ability to just pay with a credit card?  I honestly don't understand the fetish for apps that EV owners and charging companies seem to have.

Quote from: 1995hoo on July 02, 2023, 11:28:21 AM

Quote from: Max Rockatansky on July 02, 2023, 11:22:09 AM
The EV market as a whole just needs to consolidate a standard and run with it.  The stories I'm seeing now remind me of what I used to read about (albeit to a lesser extent) when gasoline wasn't standardized in the early 20th century.

Or VHS versus Beta, Mac versus PC, Blu-ray versus HD DVD, SACD versus DVD-Audio (ok, both of those were relegated to niche markets)...it seems like they never learn from past format wars. In this case it does underscore one of the reasons why I've said I want to wait as long as possible before entering the car market–things are changing very quickly, and this particular development is an extremely significant one.

I don't "need"  an EV nor do I have a particular "want"  for one either.  The way I see it, kicking that down to 2035 and beyond is just going to mean by the time I purchase EV everything regarding it (including infrastructure) will have likely self-normalized.

Quote from: Max Rockatansky on July 02, 2023, 11:22:09 AM
The EV market as a whole just needs to consolidate a standard and run with it.  The stories I'm seeing now remind me of what I used to read about (albeit to a lesser extent) when gasoline wasn't standardized in the early 20th century.

Reminds me of the olden days when each cell phone manufacturer had its own charging standard, sometimes more than one.

Quote from: abefroman329 on July 02, 2023, 12:52:08 PM
Reminds me of the olden days when each cell phone manufacturer had its own charging standard, sometimes more than one.

This only happened because the EU passed a regulation requiring it. Not being able to sell your product in 27 of the wealthiest countries in the world is a pretty big incentive to stop playing games trying to lock down market share with incompatible connectors.

Quote from: abefroman329 on July 02, 2023, 12:52:08 PM

Quote from: Max Rockatansky on July 02, 2023, 11:22:09 AM
The EV market as a whole just needs to consolidate a standard and run with it.  The stories I'm seeing now remind me of what I used to read about (albeit to a lesser extent) when gasoline wasn't standardized in the early 20th century.

Reminds me of the olden days when each cell phone manufacturer had its own charging standard, sometimes more than one.

they still do and still will. (thanks Apple)

Quote from: SSOWorld on July 03, 2023, 06:24:29 AM

Quote from: abefroman329 on July 02, 2023, 12:52:08 PM

Quote from: Max Rockatansky on July 02, 2023, 11:22:09 AM
The EV market as a whole just needs to consolidate a standard and run with it.  The stories I'm seeing now remind me of what I used to read about (albeit to a lesser extent) when gasoline wasn't standardized in the early 20th century.

Reminds me of the olden days when each cell phone manufacturer had its own charging standard, sometimes more than one.

they still do and still will. (thanks Apple)

Not in a few months thankfully. Thank the EU for that.

Quote from: Scott5114 on July 03, 2023, 12:35:50 AM

Quote from: abefroman329 on July 02, 2023, 12:52:08 PM
Reminds me of the olden days when each cell phone manufacturer had its own charging standard, sometimes more than one.

This only happened because the EU passed a regulation requiring it. Not being able to sell your product in 27 of the wealthiest countries in the world is a pretty big incentive to stop playing games trying to lock down market share with incompatible connectors.

At the time, the Lightning connector was far superior to USB Type A, USB Mini A, and USB Mini B. Lightning came out in 2012, and USB Type C came out in 2014. But the specification from Apple has never changed so it's now painstakingly slow in comparison to USB Type C.

Quote from: seicer on July 03, 2023, 09:08:49 AM

Quote from: Scott5114 on July 03, 2023, 12:35:50 AM

Quote from: abefroman329 on July 02, 2023, 12:52:08 PM
Reminds me of the olden days when each cell phone manufacturer had its own charging standard, sometimes more than one.

This only happened because the EU passed a regulation requiring it. Not being able to sell your product in 27 of the wealthiest countries in the world is a pretty big incentive to stop playing games trying to lock down market share with incompatible connectors.

At the time, the Lightning connector was far superior to USB Type A, USB Mini A, and USB Mini B. Lightning came out in 2012, and USB Type C came out in 2014. But the specification from Apple has never changed so it's now painstakingly slow in comparison to USB Type C.

Which to a significant extent defeats the purpose of standardization, if you will. Usb-c environment evolved to be very diverse within itself, so a new charger for a new phone isn't uncommon. QC, PD, PPS alphabet soup is there.. but connection is the same! Cables of multiple different grades is another fun part.

Quote from: abefroman329 on July 01, 2023, 07:07:31 PM

Quote from: texaskdog on July 01, 2023, 12:29:27 PM

Quote from: Max Rockatansky on June 28, 2023, 11:43:57 PM

Quote from: kphoger on June 28, 2023, 06:37:07 PM
Speaking as someone who travels semi-regularly to Mexico, where all gas stations are full-service only, I don't understand people's hatred of full-service gas stations.  So someone else pumps your gas instead of you.  What's the big deal?

Some of us just don't care for unnecessary human interaction with a stranger.  For me that's the reason, nothing more grandiose than that. 

Reminds me of the King of the Hill episode where Hank hated going to the BBQ place that he loved because he had to sit at a table with strangers.

Which, come to think of it, was pretty out-of-character for a man who sells propane and propane accessories.

"Only good, hard-working honest people buy propane and propane accessories. Now you get out in the general public and there's a bunch of freaks."

Quote from: SectorZ on July 03, 2023, 08:17:21 AM

Quote from: SSOWorld on July 03, 2023, 06:24:29 AM

Quote from: abefroman329 on July 02, 2023, 12:52:08 PM

Quote from: Max Rockatansky on July 02, 2023, 11:22:09 AM
The EV market as a whole just needs to consolidate a standard and run with it.  The stories I'm seeing now remind me of what I used to read about (albeit to a lesser extent) when gasoline wasn't standardized in the early 20th century.

Reminds me of the olden days when each cell phone manufacturer had its own charging standard, sometimes more than one.

they still do and still will. (thanks Apple)

Not in a few months thankfully. Thank the EU for that.

Not effective until 2024 end so Apple can go lightning another year.  Also keep in mind many interfaces such as in cars do not support USB-C which is required at both ends to handle the speed.  so there are more issues than just Apple.

Quote from: vdeane on July 02, 2023, 12:28:23 PM

Quote from: Bruce on July 02, 2023, 02:27:07 AM
Honestly, I think a full-service station for EVs might make sense for some high-demand locations. An unfamiliar charging setup can confuse people and waste precious time, plus a jockey would be able to kick out an idle vehicle that has already charged up. I tried two different charging stations in Oregon this weekend and both were a pain to set up properly, between downloading yet another app, entering payment systems, fiddling with the adapter, and making sure it was optimized.

Did the station not have the ability to just pay with a credit card?  I honestly don't understand the fetish for apps that EV owners and charging companies seem to have.

They did but some lacked screens to tell you the status of the charge (speed, remaining time, cost, etc).

Quote from: SSOWorld on July 04, 2023, 12:04:03 AM

Quote from: SectorZ on July 03, 2023, 08:17:21 AM

Quote from: SSOWorld on July 03, 2023, 06:24:29 AM

Quote from: abefroman329 on July 02, 2023, 12:52:08 PM

Quote from: Max Rockatansky on July 02, 2023, 11:22:09 AM
The EV market as a whole just needs to consolidate a standard and run with it.  The stories I'm seeing now remind me of what I used to read about (albeit to a lesser extent) when gasoline wasn't standardized in the early 20th century.

Reminds me of the olden days when each cell phone manufacturer had its own charging standard, sometimes more than one.

they still do and still will. (thanks Apple)

Not in a few months thankfully. Thank the EU for that.

Not effective until 2024 end so Apple can go lightning another year.  Also keep in mind many interfaces such as in cars do not support USB-C which is required at both ends to handle the speed.  so there are more issues than just Apple.

USB-A to USB-C can be USB 3 speed, which is pretty fast. Now many cars don't have USB 3 support - but why would they need that anyway?
One thing to remember - car lifetime can easily be 20 years, which is quite a lot for electronics. So even relatively new car may be designed with electronics 2-3 generations ago in mind.

Quote from: kalvado on July 04, 2023, 09:10:38 AM

Quote from: SSOWorld on July 04, 2023, 12:04:03 AM

Quote from: SectorZ on July 03, 2023, 08:17:21 AM

Quote from: SSOWorld on July 03, 2023, 06:24:29 AM

Quote from: abefroman329 on July 02, 2023, 12:52:08 PM

Quote from: Max Rockatansky on July 02, 2023, 11:22:09 AM
The EV market as a whole just needs to consolidate a standard and run with it.  The stories I'm seeing now remind me of what I used to read about (albeit to a lesser extent) when gasoline wasn't standardized in the early 20th century.

Reminds me of the olden days when each cell phone manufacturer had its own charging standard, sometimes more than one.

they still do and still will. (thanks Apple)

Not in a few months thankfully. Thank the EU for that.

Not effective until 2024 end so Apple can go lightning another year.  Also keep in mind many interfaces such as in cars do not support USB-C which is required at both ends to handle the speed.  so there are more issues than just Apple.

USB-A to USB-C can be USB 3 speed, which is pretty fast. Now many cars don't have USB 3 support - but why would they need that anyway?
One thing to remember - car lifetime can easily be 20 years, which is quite a lot for electronics. So even relatively new car may be designed with electronics 2-3 generations ago in mind.

Charging speeds and features, for one.

My 2022 Subaru Outback Wilderness came with 4 USB Type-A ports good for 5V, 2.1A. The 2024 iteration comes with a mix of USB Type-C ports (5V, 3A) and USB Type-A ports (5V, 2.4A) - with the Type-C ports good for about... 15W. Both come optional with a Quick Charge pad which is so slow that the battery actually depletes if you have it tethered to Apple CarPlay and Android Auto. I have hardwired into the car an inverter so I can use an Apple 85W power brick. I might switch to an Anker model as they are smaller and more powerful.

But... back to your question. Why? I have an iPhone 14 Pro Max, and the battery will last all day and night with heavy usage. But on my most recent trip, where I was driving for 2 hours, having it charging off of a Type-A port only raised the % by 10% while it was tethered to CarPlay. Having it plugged into my inverter can top it off in less time while tethered. No one has time to wait all day to charge a device, especially if you are wholly dependent on using it.

Quote from: seicer on July 04, 2023, 07:51:52 PM

Quote from: kalvado on July 04, 2023, 09:10:38 AM

Quote from: SSOWorld on July 04, 2023, 12:04:03 AM

Quote from: SectorZ on July 03, 2023, 08:17:21 AM

Quote from: SSOWorld on July 03, 2023, 06:24:29 AM

Quote from: abefroman329 on July 02, 2023, 12:52:08 PM

Quote from: Max Rockatansky on July 02, 2023, 11:22:09 AM
The EV market as a whole just needs to consolidate a standard and run with it.  The stories I'm seeing now remind me of what I used to read about (albeit to a lesser extent) when gasoline wasn't standardized in the early 20th century.

Reminds me of the olden days when each cell phone manufacturer had its own charging standard, sometimes more than one.

they still do and still will. (thanks Apple)

Not in a few months thankfully. Thank the EU for that.

Not effective until 2024 end so Apple can go lightning another year.  Also keep in mind many interfaces such as in cars do not support USB-C which is required at both ends to handle the speed.  so there are more issues than just Apple.

USB-A to USB-C can be USB 3 speed, which is pretty fast. Now many cars don't have USB 3 support - but why would they need that anyway?
One thing to remember - car lifetime can easily be 20 years, which is quite a lot for electronics. So even relatively new car may be designed with electronics 2-3 generations ago in mind.

Charging speeds and features, for one.

My 2022 Subaru Outback Wilderness came with 4 USB Type-A ports good for 5V, 2.1A. The 2024 iteration comes with a mix of USB Type-C ports (5V, 3A) and USB Type-A ports (5V, 2.4A) - with the Type-C ports good for about... 15W. Both come optional with a Quick Charge pad which is so slow that the battery actually depletes if you have it tethered to Apple CarPlay and Android Auto. I have hardwired into the car an inverter so I can use an Apple 85W power brick. I might switch to an Anker model as they are smaller and more powerful.

But... back to your question. Why? I have an iPhone 14 Pro Max, and the battery will last all day and night with heavy usage. But on my most recent trip, where I was driving for 2 hours, having it charging off of a Type-A port only raised the % by 10% while it was tethered to CarPlay. Having it plugged into my inverter can top it off in less time while tethered. No one has time to wait all day to charge a device, especially if you are wholly dependent on using it.

So... An ol'good 12V outlet seem to be the best option as it has higher power. Same as 120V outlet at home, charger comes separate.

In a way, yes.

A 12V plug is a DC-to-DC charger, so you'll not have efficiency losses. When you switch from AC to DC at full wave, like with a 120V plug, you have an efficiency of about 81%. There are some newer technologies out there to boost that to 90%, but I've not yet seen one in production here yet.

In my car (which I use for work and to live in for extended periods of time), I carry a 500W battery pack with a 12V and twin 120V plugs - along with a variety of USB Type-A and Type-C ports (one of which is PD). When charging drone batteries and using the DJI battery charger on a 12V, it is still slower than using the 120V plug with an Apple 85W power brick + USB-C cable + DJI battery charger, as the DJI 12V charger doesn't pull as many volts or amps. On a 12V, I can charge a battery in about 1 hour versus .6 hours on the 120V.

I'm no electrician and this still confuses the hell out of me.

Quote from: seicer on July 04, 2023, 10:10:23 PM
In a way, yes.

A 12V plug is a DC-to-DC charger, so you'll not have efficiency losses. When you switch from AC to DC at full wave, like with a 120V plug, you have an efficiency of about 81%. There are some newer technologies out there to boost that to 90%, but I've not yet seen one in production here yet.

In my car (which I use for work and to live in for extended periods of time), I carry a 500W battery pack with a 12V and twin 120V plugs - along with a variety of USB Type-A and Type-C ports (one of which is PD). When charging drone batteries and using the DJI battery charger on a 12V, it is still slower than using the 120V plug with an Apple 85W power brick + USB-C cable + DJI battery charger, as the DJI 12V charger doesn't pull as many volts or amps. On a 12V, I can charge a battery in about 1 hour versus .6 hours on the 120V.

I'm no electrician and this still confuses the hell out of me.

You completely miss my point.
What I am saying is if you have to mate fast evolving technology (charging) on device with relatively short service live (phone)  with pretty established technology (12 or 120V distribution) in a long-lived thing (cars and homes) - you better assume interface module is not long-lived one.
That's why 5V outlets in a car, as well as in-wall chargers are, IMHO, meaningless. Design and life cycles of those converters makes them obsolete way before host structure, and they may or may not be easy to upgrade. Built-in module in a car is certainly not upgradeable.

Do you mean 12V outlets in a car? Because that's what's commonly referred to as the cigarette port or 12V outlet. Or do you mean the USB ports that are 5V? Because no one calls it the "5V outlet."

And yes, the modules are upgradeable and repairable - and it's not hard to do with some knowledge. I had damaged a 12V port in a 2016 Subaru, which required 10 minutes of disassembly, $20 in parts, and 30 minutes of installation. Replacing fuses when one gets overloaded is a 5-minute repair. Replacing the USB module with an updated one in my 2022 Subaru took 10 minutes to take apart the module, $60 in parts, and about an hour of installation. As it relied on the same architecture, it did not require any new wiring or fuses. The downside is that it draws pretty much the same power as it did before, but now I have the option of using USB Type-C.

The thing about charging is that it's universal. The plug has not changed in decades - 12V and 120V plugs are very common in vehicles (the latter more so in trucks and SUVs). The charging cables have changed some over the years, but it's not difficult to find cables. And the interface "modules" (unsure on what you mean there) is standardized.

^^^^

You can also find an adapter that lets you plug a standard electrical plug into a cigarette lighter. Obviously, trying to power something like a microwave or mini-refrigerator would probably be a bad idea, but you could power some smaller electronics via that sort of device if, for whatever reason, using the lighter plug directly were not an option. I just did a Google search for "cigarette lighter to outlet adapter" and found several; the Duracell device looks essentially like a small power strip.

Yeah, they are pretty universal. It's an inverter converting DC to AC. You still have the limitations of the inverter's capabilities, which may have a 10A fuse, and you'll be limited to the capacity of the 12V plug, which is normally 10A.

Then you have to deal with starting watts and running watts. A small coffee maker will draw about 650 watts at the start and decrease. Add 10% when sizing for an inverter. Divide the wattage by 10 to account for inverter inefficiency to determine the current necessary for the inverter. If it's over 10A, you have to either install or use a second dedicated battery and wire or plug directly to that, or wire directly to the battery as a 12V outlet would get overloaded.

But that's all stuff that's easily replaceable. The other issue is the wire gauge - if you are running 650 watts through a 12V, the main issue becomes the wire itself (if the fuse doesn't break first). It is not designed for such loads and you know what happens when wires get too hot...

Quote from: seicer on July 05, 2023, 11:04:24 AM
Yeah, they are pretty universal. It's an inverter converting DC to AC. You still have the limitations of the inverter's capabilities, which may have a 10A fuse, and you'll be limited to the capacity of the 12V plug, which is normally 10A.

Then you have to deal with starting watts and running watts. A small coffee maker will draw about 650 watts at the start and decrease. Add 10% when sizing for an inverter. Divide the wattage by 10 to account for inverter inefficiency to determine the current necessary for the inverter. If it's over 10A, you have to either install or use a second dedicated battery and wire or plug directly to that, or wire directly to the battery as a 12V outlet would get overloaded.

But that's all stuff that's easily replaceable. The other issue is the wire gauge - if you are running 650 watts through a 12V, the main issue becomes the wire itself (if the fuse doesn't break first). It is not designed for such loads and you know what happens when wires get too hot...

Let me remind you where it started... From universal phone connection. And looks like we are pretty much in agreement that powering a phone from 12V connection is easy, but may require an adapter contemporary to the phone. That is a plug and play upgrade, unlike dealing with built in module (5V 2.4A in most cases)

Perhaps. But inverters also fail and repairing those is sometimes impossible (forced obsolescence). I had to tear one apart just to replace a fuse and then couldn't put it back together.

The governor has yet to sign the bill: https://www.thechronicleonline.com/news/at-the-pump-senate-and-house-approve-self-service-gas-bill/article_25f04874-ae64-5a8f-8d95-0f60cdaf6936.html

Quote from: Bruce on July 07, 2023, 06:13:26 PM
The governor has yet to sign the bill...

But evidently she isn't going to veto it either, so it becomes state law no later than next week.

https://www.oregonlive.com/commuting/2023/07/oregon-self-serve-gas-bill-will-become-law-as-kotek-declines-to-veto.html (https://www.oregonlive.com/commuting/2023/07/oregon-self-serve-gas-bill-will-become-law-as-kotek-declines-to-veto.html)

QuoteGov. Tina Kotek will allow a bill allowing self-serve gasoline across Oregon to become law, ending a 72-year ban on most drivers pumping their own gas.

Announcing a slate of potential vetoes Friday, as required by the Oregon Constitution, Kotek did not include House Bill 2426, which will permit Oregon gas stations to open up to half of their pumps for self-serve gas.
...
The bill will become law as soon as Kotek signs it, or else Aug. 4 if the governor declines to sign it.

Oregonians, you have a week to watch the "How To Pump Your Own Gas" Youtube video embedded in that article.

Quote from: gonealookin on July 28, 2023, 05:11:54 PM

Quote from: Bruce on July 07, 2023, 06:13:26 PM
The governor has yet to sign the bill...

But evidently she isn't going to veto it either, so it becomes state law no later than next week.

https://www.oregonlive.com/commuting/2023/07/oregon-self-serve-gas-bill-will-become-law-as-kotek-declines-to-veto.html (https://www.oregonlive.com/commuting/2023/07/oregon-self-serve-gas-bill-will-become-law-as-kotek-declines-to-veto.html)

QuoteGov. Tina Kotek will allow a bill allowing self-serve gasoline across Oregon to become law, ending a 72-year ban on most drivers pumping their own gas.

Announcing a slate of potential vetoes Friday, as required by the Oregon Constitution, Kotek did not include House Bill 2426, which will permit Oregon gas stations to open up to half of their pumps for self-serve gas.
...
The bill will become law as soon as Kotek signs it, or else Aug. 4 if the governor declines to sign it.

Oregonians, you have a week to watch the "How To Pump Your Own Gas" Youtube video embedded in that article.

....up to a half of their pumps....

Quote from: kalvado on July 28, 2023, 05:15:45 PM
....up to a half of their pumps....

One wonders, though, how many of the larger stations (think the 16 or 20 pump places) will cut their staffing to only one employee at a time and try to drive the business to the self-serve pumps by creating even longer wait times.

They can't just give it up...  Not clear to me from that story: if one arrives at a station and all of the self service pumps are in use, would it be legal to pump your own gas at a full service pump?  I guess that would only make sense for the driver if the price is the same either way or the lines for self service are significant.

The only station I can think of near me (Amsterdam, NY) that offers full service does not charge extra at that one pump.  It might also be some of the Stewart's Shops gas pumps where I've seen a note that you can call/text into the store if you would like someone to come out and pump for you.  I doubt that incurs any additional charge.

Woah never knew that "Full Service" pumps even existed in some states. But in California self service is the norm for decades. The gas attendant thing sounds like stuff movies came up with for a great scene on "How things used to be" type scenarios.

Quote from: bing101 on July 29, 2023, 03:22:32 PM
Woah never knew that "Full Service" pumps even existed in some states. But in California self service is the norm for decades. The gas attendant thing sounds like stuff movies came up with for a great scene on "How things used to be" type scenarios.

Kwik Fill in NY is full service.

Quote from: Jim on July 29, 2023, 03:20:48 PM
They can't just give it up...  Not clear to me from that story: if one arrives at a station and all of the self service pumps are in use, would it be legal to pump your own gas at a full service pump?

It's not especially clear. Here's the text:

Quote
A filling station, service station, garage or other dispensary where Class 1 flammable liquids are dispensed at retail may not designate more than the same number of fuel dispensing devices for self-service use by customers as are designated for attended service by an owner, operator or employee of the dispensary of Class 1 flammable liquids.

Quote from: CtrlAltDel on July 30, 2023, 10:05:28 PM

Quote from: Jim on July 29, 2023, 03:20:48 PM
They can't just give it up...  Not clear to me from that story: if one arrives at a station and all of the self service pumps are in use, would it be legal to pump your own gas at a full service pump?

It's not especially clear. Here's the text:

Quote
A filling station, service station, garage or other dispensary where Class 1 flammable liquids are dispensed at retail may not designate more than the same number of fuel dispensing devices for self-service use by customers as are designated for attended service by an owner, operator or employee of the dispensary of Class 1 flammable liquids.

My read of that is no. If you come to a station where the self-serve pumps are full, you either have to wait for a spot to open or go to a full service pump where someone has to do it for you.

The whole thing is ridiculous and is a pretty good indicator of why I have no interest in moving to Oregon anytime soon. I still remember when I went to Seattle with my parents as a kid, we drove through Oregon on the way and weren't aware of the self-service ban. My dad got out of the car and put his card into the machine, and the attendant ran over from the other side of the station, looked at him as if he'd just killed someone, and accused him of stealing their gas. I wasn't impressed.

Quote from: US 89 on July 31, 2023, 01:20:58 AM
The whole thing is ridiculous and is a pretty good indicator of why I have no interest in moving to Oregon anytime soon. I still remember when I went to Seattle with my parents as a kid, we drove through Oregon on the way and weren't aware of the self-service ban. My dad got out of the car and put his card into the machine, and the attendant ran over from the other side of the station, looked at him as if he'd just killed someone, and accused him of stealing their gas. I wasn't impressed.

Oregon has this weird contrarian streak in them, which also manifests in whether or not to add fluoride to drinking water (Portland said no).

This was always a stupid requirement, so getting rid of it makes sense, but it does little to make me want to go to Oregon with the laundry list of other problems the state has.

Quote from: HighwayStar on July 31, 2023, 12:23:49 PM
This was always a stupid requirement, so getting rid of it makes sense, but it does little to make me want to go to Oregon with the laundry list of other problems the state city of Portland has.

FIXED  :awesomeface:

Quote from: SSOWorld on August 01, 2023, 06:17:33 AM

Quote from: HighwayStar on July 31, 2023, 12:23:49 PM
This was always a stupid requirement, so getting rid of it makes sense, but it does little to make me want to go to Oregon with the laundry list of other problems the state city of Portland has.

FIXED  :awesomeface:

The problem is Portland runs that state, so even the decent rural areas are headed downhill.

One time around 1998, I waited at a convenience store gas station south of Portland on 43.  An employee came out and asked me if I wanted him to fill up the car, and I said, "I think you have to."  Maybe he saw my Washington plates and thought he could get away with making me do it.

Then in 2010 at the one gas pump at Crater Lake National Park, I waited in line behind one car for the pump.  Then I proceeded to serve myself.  Then I thought, "I'm in Oregon, and I'm pumping my own gas.  I'm such a rebel."  Maybe Federal rules supersede state rules at a National Park.

The bill has been signed into law by Governor Kotek:

https://twitter.com/devonhaskins/status/1687532013111422976

https://goo.gl/maps/dSptTQ59QHUtZ6rU8
GSV already has captioning of someone pumping their own gas already. It's October last year and pan the image around as the marquee on the Sinclair Sign has self serve mentioned.

Quote from: roadman65 on August 14, 2023, 07:09:16 AM
https://goo.gl/maps/dSptTQ59QHUtZ6rU8
GSV already has captioning of someone pumping their own gas already. It's October last year and pan the image around as the marquee on the Sinclair Sign has self serve mentioned.

Self-serve has been allowed in rural counties (with populations below 40K) since 2018. Ontario is in such a county, so this isn't strange at all.

During my road trips through Oregon these past few years, I was able to pump my own gas at plenty of stations. Just not at Costco or in the Willamette Valley.

That leaves New Jersey as the only state in the US that bans self-service for gas stations.

I drove through part of Oregon yesterday, on 99W between I-5 and Newberg.  I gassed up before I got there, but I wondered if the self-service pumps would be clearly marked, since half the pumps still have to be at least mini-serve.  I saw one sign for an aisle of self-service pumps, but all the other stations I saw were either still all full/mini, or they haven't had a chance to make professional signs yet.  Like any big change, it seems confusing.  :confused:

It's been, what, ten days since the bill was signed? Most large companies can't even get around to considering to think about planning to create a committee to study the possibility of maybe making a provisional change to their business policies in that time, much less implementing it.

My wife had an odd comment for me regarding this topic.  She said that she felt glad to see two full service gas station states in the United States in her lifetime.  I thought that sentiment was odd considering she visits family in Jalisco every year (where full service is common).

Quote from: vdeane on July 02, 2023, 12:28:23 PM
Did the station not have the ability to just pay with a credit card?  I honestly don't understand the fetish for apps that EV owners and charging companies seem to have.

Putting credit card readers on EV chargers and maintaining them costs money. Making everyone use the app you were going to develop anyway is cheaper. And since early adopters of EVs are pretty much all tech bros who are totally comfortable using an app for absolutely everything, the charging companies have gotten away with it for a while.

The good news is that as of earlier this year the feds now require any new EV chargers installed using federal funds to accept payment by credit or debit card, and the industry seems to have come to the realization that that will be necessary if they want to expand their customer base to include normal people.

Quote from: Scott5114 on August 14, 2023, 10:38:49 PM
It's been, what, ten days since the bill was signed? Most large companies can't even get around to considering to think about planning to create a committee to study the possibility of maybe making a provisional change to their business policies in that time, much less implementing it.

That's probably true for Safeway and Kroger (Fred Meyer), but your typical "branded" gas station could implement it much faster as they tend to be jobbers and independent franchisees just with a "name" on the sign.