This one has me scratching my head. If you are headed south on US-75, just prior to exit 51, there is a sign that reads "DFW Traffic Use Exit 38C" (https://www.google.com/maps/@33.4388676,-96.5984541,3a,75y,156.16h,95.31t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sy5Z4suQPWbdBSZsw-5zHxA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttu). All right, so looking at Exit 38C, and it's the Sam Rayburn Tollway (https://www.google.com/maps/@33.1622782,-96.6441945,3a,75y,208.99h,87.18t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s-7Hhlv3FBm4BrOX-Dm605Q!2e0!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttu). The headscratcher in this is that, despite being labeled a North-South route, it's more like a East-West route. And, unless you are going to the DFW Airport, the only major freeways along the SRT is the Dallas North Tollway (DNT) and the I-35E, both of which go directly to Dallas along with US-75.
Should the sign then read "DFW Airport Use Exit 38C"? Then, of course, there is Love Field which is indirectly accessible from both DNT and US-75 via Mockingbird Lane. Wouldn't you at least put up a Airport icon mini-sign?
Quote from: ZLoth on July 04, 2023, 02:34:12 PM
This one has me scratching my head. If you are headed south on US-75, just prior to exit 51, there is a sign that reads "DFW Traffic Use Exit 38C" (https://www.google.com/maps/@33.4388676,-96.5984541,3a,75y,156.16h,95.31t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sy5Z4suQPWbdBSZsw-5zHxA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttu). All right, so looking at Exit 38C, and it's the Sam Rayburn Tollway (https://www.google.com/maps/@33.1622782,-96.6441945,3a,75y,208.99h,87.18t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s-7Hhlv3FBm4BrOX-Dm605Q!2e0!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttu). The headscratcher in this is that, despite being labeled a North-South route, it's more like a East-West route. And, unless you are going to the DFW Airport, the only major freeways along the SRT is the Dallas North Tollway (DNT) and the I-35E, both of which go directly to Dallas along with US-75.
Should the sign then read "DFW Airport Use Exit 38C"? Then, of course, there is Love Field which is indirectly accessible from both DNT and US-75 via Mockingbird Lane. Wouldn't you at least put up a Airport icon mini-sign?
They meant DFW airport as the SRT pretty much takes you directly into the airport.
It's because apparently people have gotten confused driving in from the north, and are exiting at FM 121, thinking it's TX 121, that will get them to DFW Airport. Of course, those folks get lost. So, instead of TxDOT renumbering FM 121 to a different number, which would remove the 2 121's close proximity--and any confusion--they prefer to add signs like the one the OP saw.
That sign has existed in some form for a long time--I think I have at least one detail for it in my TxDOT collection.
I think the "DFW" being referred to is the metroplex in general and not necessarily just the airport, though it is true that SH 121 skirts Dallas proper. FM 121, on the other hand, just runs west to US 377 at Tioga and east to an intersection with SH 160 in the middle of nowhere.
Edit: Here is an earlier version of the message, as of October 2013 (note the text designation, which is very unusual for Texas):
Exit 51 -- FM 121 Van Alstyne Pkwy -- DFW Traffic Do Not Exit (https://www.google.com/maps/@33.4347335,-96.5962203,3a,20y,159.48h,89.12t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sxm6KhUL7MLo8lKzmnJSBtg!2e0!5s20131001T000000!7i13312!8i6656?entry=ttu)
Quote from: -- US 175 -- on July 04, 2023, 04:41:16 PM
It's because apparently people have gotten confused driving in from the north, and are exiting at FM 121, thinking it's TX 121, that will get them to DFW Airport. Of course, those folks get lost. So, instead of TxDOT renumbering FM 121 to a different number, which would remove the 2 121's close proximity--and any confusion--they prefer to add signs like the one the OP saw.
Maybe because the solution is one sign, versus your suggestion that would have costs of sign replacement plus also the costs due to confusion as people adjust to calling the old FM 121 by its new name.
Quote from: ZLoth on July 04, 2023, 02:34:12 PM
This one has me scratching my head. If you are headed south on US-75, just prior to exit 51, there is a sign that reads "DFW Traffic Use Exit 38C" (https://www.google.com/maps/@33.4388676,-96.5984541,3a,75y,156.16h,95.31t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sy5Z4suQPWbdBSZsw-5zHxA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttu). All right, so looking at Exit 38C, and it's the Sam Rayburn Tollway (https://www.google.com/maps/@33.1622782,-96.6441945,3a,75y,208.99h,87.18t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s-7Hhlv3FBm4BrOX-Dm605Q!2e0!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttu). The headscratcher in this is that, despite being labeled a North-South route, it's more like a East-West route. And, unless you are going to the DFW Airport, the only major freeways along the SRT is the Dallas North Tollway (DNT) and the I-35E, both of which go directly to Dallas along with US-75.
Should the sign then read "DFW Airport Use Exit 38C"? Then, of course, there is Love Field which is indirectly accessible from both DNT and US-75 via Mockingbird Lane. Wouldn't you at least put up a Airport icon mini-sign?
It seems that your point of confusion is that you believe that the DOT is referring to the entire Dallas-Fort Worth region as "DFW" on the sign. Which they are not, they are using DFW to mean the airport. It wouldn't make sense to abbreviate the place names "Dallas" and "Fort Worth" as "DFW" on a road sign.
This sign is in advance of the exit for FM 121 in Van Alstyne. It was meant originally to avoid confusion with SH 121 farther south. An earlier version of the sign said "DFW Traffic Do Not Exit," which made Van Alstyne seem unwelcoming to sojourners.
As stated above, it's to prevent confusion of FM 121 with TX 121. It seems like the more appropriate solution would be to renumber FM 121, as it comes within three miles of intersecting with TX 121 at Trenton anyways.
I snapped these pictures in March, 2010.
(https://i.imgur.com/WTWdjl8.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/KB8kSuh.jpg)
Quote from: I-35 on July 05, 2023, 10:34:48 AM
As stated above, it's to prevent confusion of FM 121 with TX 121. It seems like the more appropriate solution would be to renumber FM 121, as it comes within three miles of intersecting with TX 121 at Trenton anyways.
Texas 70 and US 70 cross in Matador, and there will be an interchange between US 69 and I-69 in Lufkin, so it's nothing new for them. It's the Texas way!
Quote from: ran4sh on July 04, 2023, 05:38:51 PMIt seems that your point of confusion is that you believe that the DOT is referring to the entire Dallas-Fort Worth region as "DFW" on the sign. Which they are not, they are using DFW to mean the airport. It wouldn't make sense to abbreviate the place names "Dallas" and "Fort Worth" as "DFW" on a road sign.
Isn't there a relevant section of MUTCD that is used in situations like this? After all, if it refers to the airport, put up a airport icon on the sign.
Quote from: I-35 on July 05, 2023, 10:34:48 AM
As stated above, it's to prevent confusion of FM 121 with TX 121. It seems like the more appropriate solution would be to renumber FM 121, as it comes within three miles of intersecting with TX 121 at Trenton anyways.
It may not be
that easy as you have mailing addresses such as 13999 FM 121, Van Alstyne, TX 75495 already in existence for quite a long while.
Quote from: ZLoth on July 05, 2023, 12:02:39 PM
Quote from: ran4sh on July 04, 2023, 05:38:51 PMIt seems that your point of confusion is that you believe that the DOT is referring to the entire Dallas-Fort Worth region as "DFW" on the sign. Which they are not, they are using DFW to mean the airport. It wouldn't make sense to abbreviate the place names "Dallas" and "Fort Worth" as "DFW" on a road sign.
Isn't there a relevant section of MUTCD that is used in situations like this? After all, if it refers to the airport, put up a airport icon on the sign.
Quote from: I-35 on July 05, 2023, 10:34:48 AM
As stated above, it's to prevent confusion of FM 121 with TX 121. It seems like the more appropriate solution would be to renumber FM 121, as it comes within three miles of intersecting with TX 121 at Trenton anyways.
It may not be that easy as you have mailing addresses such as 13999 FM 121, Van Alstyne, TX 75495 already in existence for quite a long while.
Even more confusing, the city of Van Alstyne has changed the street name of FM 121 several times in just the last couple of decades. It was Stephens Street, then it became Henry Hynds Parkway. Now it's called Van Alstyne Parkway (which is an entry in the "street named after the city" thread that I figured was too far in the weeds so I skipped it.)
Quote from: ZLoth on July 05, 2023, 12:02:39 PM
Quote from: ran4sh on July 04, 2023, 05:38:51 PMIt seems that your point of confusion is that you believe that the DOT is referring to the entire Dallas-Fort Worth region as "DFW" on the sign. Which they are not, they are using DFW to mean the airport. It wouldn't make sense to abbreviate the place names "Dallas" and "Fort Worth" as "DFW" on a road sign.
Isn't there a relevant section of MUTCD that is used in situations like this? After all, if it refers to the airport, put up a airport icon on the sign.
Quote from: I-35 on July 05, 2023, 10:34:48 AM
As stated above, it's to prevent confusion of FM 121 with TX 121. It seems like the more appropriate solution would be to renumber FM 121, as it comes within three miles of intersecting with TX 121 at Trenton anyways.
It may not be that easy as you have mailing addresses such as 13999 FM 121, Van Alstyne, TX 75495 already in existence for quite a long while.
The airport icon is not *required* to be used
OK, thank you for the clarification. I won't even ask why Park and Parker are right next to each other on US-75 in Plano... what were they thinking?
Quote from: ZLoth on July 09, 2023, 10:06:50 AM
OK, thank you for the clarification. I won't even ask why Park and Parker are right next to each other on US-75 in Plano... what were they thinking?
Well, Parker is more understandable, as it does go out to Parker from Plano. Park Blvd., though, really could stand to be a different name. AFAIK, there really isn't any real reason that street must have the name "Park".
Quote from: ZLoth on July 05, 2023, 12:02:39 PM
Quote from: I-35 on July 05, 2023, 10:34:48 AM
As stated above, it's to prevent confusion of FM 121 with TX 121. It seems like the more appropriate solution would be to renumber FM 121, as it comes within three miles of intersecting with TX 121 at Trenton anyways.
It may not be that easy as you have mailing addresses such as 13999 FM 121, Van Alstyne, TX 75495 already in existence for quite a long while.
Definitely easier now than when Van Alstyne hits the 50,000 population mark. Although at that point, FM 121 may be decommissioned entirely since it will likely be an urban thoroughfare by that point.
Quote from: ran4sh on July 06, 2023, 01:17:45 AM
Quote from: ZLoth on July 05, 2023, 12:02:39 PM
Quote from: ran4sh on July 04, 2023, 05:38:51 PMIt seems that your point of confusion is that you believe that the DOT is referring to the entire Dallas-Fort Worth region as "DFW" on the sign. Which they are not, they are using DFW to mean the airport. It wouldn't make sense to abbreviate the place names "Dallas" and "Fort Worth" as "DFW" on a road sign.
Isn't there a relevant section of MUTCD that is used in situations like this? After all, if it refers to the airport, put up a airport icon on the sign.
Quote from: I-35 on July 05, 2023, 10:34:48 AM
As stated above, it's to prevent confusion of FM 121 with TX 121. It seems like the more appropriate solution would be to renumber FM 121, as it comes within three miles of intersecting with TX 121 at Trenton anyways.
It may not be that easy as you have mailing addresses such as 13999 FM 121, Van Alstyne, TX 75495 already in existence for quite a long while.
The airport icon is not *required* to be used
Plenty of BGSs in Chicagoland with O'Hare as a Control with no Airport icon used
FWIW... I drove FM-121 end-to-end today. I started with FM-922 in Valley View, TX, then picked up FM-121 in Tioga. East of Van Alstyne near SR-160, the road was under construction, and it was reduced to a gravel road.
Quote from: ZLoth on February 16, 2025, 03:29:23 PMFWIW... I drove FM-121 end-to-end today. I started with FM-922 in Valley View, TX, then picked up FM-121 in Tioga. East of Van Alstyne near SR-160, the road was under construction, and it was reduced to a gravel road.
Have you become a YANKEE or other otherworldly non-Texan? It should either be SH-160 or TX-160. Every one of those Farm Roads are "State Routes" too.
YANKEE?!?
(https://www.barbneal.com/wp-content/uploads/yosemite.gif)
https://youtu.be/1S828Y7Eais?si=vVgZtV2cPvMjEzon
Quote from: bugo on July 05, 2023, 10:50:28 AMQuote from: I-35 on July 05, 2023, 10:34:48 AMAs stated above, it's to prevent confusion of FM 121 with TX 121. It seems like the more appropriate solution would be to renumber FM 121, as it comes within three miles of intersecting with TX 121 at Trenton anyways.
Texas 70 and US 70 cross in Matador, and there will be an interchange between US 69 and I-69 in Lufkin, so it's nothing new for them. It's the Texas way!
Interchange? There will evidently be a 5-mile concurrency.
Quote from: bwana39 on February 17, 2025, 06:59:33 PMQuote from: ZLoth on February 16, 2025, 03:29:23 PMFWIW... I drove FM-121 end-to-end today. I started with FM-922 in Valley View, TX, then picked up FM-121 in Tioga. East of Van Alstyne near SR-160, the road was under construction, and it was reduced to a gravel road.
Have you become a YANKEE or other otherworldly non-Texan? It should either be SH-160 or TX-160. Every one of those Farm Roads are "State Routes" too.
You take a look at this photo (https://www.google.com/maps/@33.438977,-96.4021245,3a,75y,104.97h,93.64t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1szhERTTjxVegeQscqGXX-Ig!2e0!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fcb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile%26w%3D900%26h%3D600%26pitch%3D-3.6405847529173343%26panoid%3DzhERTTjxVegeQscqGXX-Ig%26yaw%3D104.97000861677131!7i13312!8i6656?entry=ttu&g_ep=EgoyMDI1MDIxMi4wIKXMDSoASAFQAw%3D%3D). I thought it was a state route, but it's a state highway. All I can tell you for sure is that it's not a Farm-To-Market, and definitely not Farm-To-Ranch road.
Just take the road... and drive it! :)
Quote from: ran4sh on July 04, 2023, 05:38:51 PMIt seems that your point of confusion is that you believe that the DOT is referring to the entire Dallas-Fort Worth region as "DFW" on the sign. Which they are not, they are using DFW to mean the airport. It wouldn't make sense to abbreviate the place names "Dallas" and "Fort Worth" as "DFW" on a road sign.
DFW was the Airport before anyone called the "metroplex" DFW. The preferred regional nomenclature for the entire megalopolis, today, is simply "North Texas
North Texas and DFW are becoming synonymous more and more with suburban growth now in Wise County and on the doorstep of Grayson County.
I do not use "North Texas" as a name for the DFW metro region. There is a whole lot more of North Texas than just the area surrounding DFW. Wichita Falls, Lubbock and Amarillo are all in North Texas but well outside of the DFW metro.
I think "the metroplex" is a pretty well-understood term for DFW. Here in this part of Oklahoma if anyone says they're driving to the metroplex this coming weekend we all know they're going to DFW. And if they say they're driving to "the city", it's understood that they mean Oklahoma City.
Quote from: Bobby5280 on February 19, 2025, 10:01:15 PMI do not use "North Texas" as a name for the DFW metro region. There is a whole lot more of North Texas than just the area surrounding DFW. Wichita Falls, Lubbock and Amarillo are all in North Texas but well outside of the DFW metro.
I think "the metroplex" is a pretty well-understood term for DFW. Here in this part of Oklahoma if anyone says they're driving to the metroplex this coming weekend we all know they're going to DFW. And if they say they're driving to "the city", it's understood that they mean Oklahoma City.
No, and you aren't from North Texas. I guess technically or more succinctly, the name the local media and most of the locals call "North Texas" more aptly could be called Central North Texas or the moniker the North Central Council of Governments uses of North Central Texas. Their 16 county region (https://www.nctcog.org/getmedia/4df3506f-5072-406c-b14d-17ce42fe1560/16countyregion.4f9ac2.pdf?lang=en-US) is most of the part of the state the media terms " North Texas"
Just like you call OKC, "the City" I would never. For me "the City " might be Longview.
From my perspective, the Dallas–Fort Worth–Arlington area is a large not only in the land area but also in terms of population. Yes, there are multiple names for the area. I don't think you can call it "The city" because it depends on perspective as to the nearest city. Technically speaking, I live in one of the smaller cities that surround "big D", but I still consider myself a resident of Dallas or DFW. I am technically correct in saying that I live in the North Dallas area. There is also one county between the county I live in and the Oklahoma border.
North Texas... uh no. Northeast Texas is more accurate. North Texas can include the panhandle area and areas northwest of DFW.
However, for the past six years, I have called North Dallas "home", and hope to continue to do so until I pass away.
Quote from: bwana39No, and you aren't from North Texas. I guess technically or more succinctly, the name the local media and most of the locals call "North Texas" more aptly could be called Central North Texas or the moniker the North Central Council of Governments uses of North Central Texas.
You're ignoring the giant expanse of area of North Texas that is NOT in the DFW region. The DFW metro does not run all the way to the damned New Mexico border, or even the Louisiana border for that matter.
And it doesn't matter where I'm originally from. I've been in the DFW area many times. I've never heard locals there labeling the DFW region as "North Texas." The common term I've heard over the past 30+ years is "the metroplex."
Quote from: bwana39Just like you call OKC, "the City" I would never. For me "the City " might be Longview.
Oklahomans often refer to Oklahoma City as "the City." That is an objective fact. What you want to label things makes no difference. It is what it is.
Quote from: Bobby5280 on February 20, 2025, 04:08:35 PMYou're ignoring the giant expanse of area of North Texas that is NOT in the DFW region. The DFW metro does not run all the way to the damned New Mexico border, or even the Louisiana border for that matter.
And it doesn't matter where I'm originally from. I've been in the DFW area many times. I've never heard locals there labeling the DFW region as "North Texas." The common term I've heard over the past 30+ years is "the metroplex."
Why is DFW called North Texas?
North Texas - Wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Texas)
North Texas is
a term used primarily by residents of the Dallas–Fort Worth metroplex" to refer to a geographic area of Texas, generally considered to include the area south of Oklahoma, east of Abilene, west of Paris, and north of Waco.
I feel like it is more aptly defined as the Dallas Fort Worth television market plus the Sherman / Ada market parts that are in Texas.
The bottom line is it is the "
Dallas - Fort Worth Metroplex. That would seemingly exclude the over a million people living in Tarrant County outside of Fort Worth and the 1.3 million in Dallas County outside of the City of Dallas, just over a million in Collin County (admittedly a few of them are in the City of Dallas), Around a million in Denton County, and the rest of the people in the area. I am not asking you to call it "North Texas". I just want to assure you the term is widespread.
Luka Dončić thanks Mavericks fans in heartfelt message
NBA.Com
https://www.nba.com › NBA News
Feb 2, 2025 — "For a young kid from Slovenia coming to the U.S. for the first time,
you made North Texas feel like home," Doncic wrote. "In good times and bad ..
So Luka Doncic who is originally from Slovenia, uses it as an ubiquitous term.
If you look at a population density map of Texas (https://spencerschien.info/interactive/population_density/featured_hu3b7a297d459f39ce7858b19026ebef4b_7965356_720x2500_fit_q75_h2_lanczos_3.webp), you will see that many of the major population centers is connected by I-35, whether it be Fort Worth/Dallas, Waco, Temple, Austin, San Antonio, or Laredo. Houston is to the east of I-35, and is connected to DFW by I-45 . West of the I-35 line, and the population density drops off sharply, with places like El Past, Amarillo, and Wichita Falls being highlights. Thus, I can see where people say "North Texas" when it's more like Northeast Texas.
Quote from: ZLoth on February 20, 2025, 06:19:21 PMIf you look at a population density map of Texas (https://spencerschien.info/interactive/population_density/featured_hu3b7a297d459f39ce7858b19026ebef4b_7965356_720x2500_fit_q75_h2_lanczos_3.webp), you will see that many of the major population centers is connected by I-35, whether it be Fort Worth/Dallas, Waco, Temple, Austin, San Antonio, or Laredo. Houston is to the east of I-35, and is connected to DFW by I-45 . West of the I-35 line, and the population density drops off sharply, with places like El Past, Amarillo, and Wichita Falls being highlights. Thus, I can see where people say "North Texas" when it's more like Northeast Texas.
No, Northeast Texas is Red River, Bowie, Franklin, Hopkins, Camp, Upshur, Titus, Cass, Marion , Morris, and Wood Counties. Some would leave Hopkins out. Some would add Lamar, Delta, Harrison, and MAYBE Gregg.
It is more closely State Senate District 1 without the southern fringes. Mount Pleasant is "The Hub of Northeast Texas" (Circa 1976).
You get that I am working this for all it is worth... LOL?
QuoteJust like you call OKC, "the City" I would never. For me "the City " might be Longview.
No, I would never call OKC "the city" . Nor should I as I am not from Oklahoma.
North Texas is sort of like that...
Quote from: bwana39 on February 20, 2025, 07:13:56 PMYou get that I am working this for all it is worth... LOL?
(https://s3.amazonaws.com/pix.iemoji.com/images/emoji/apple/ios-12/256/cow-face.png) Moo.
I'm just sitting back and sipping tea.
NWS Norman has Hardeman, Foard, Knox, Wilbarger, Baylor, Wichita, and Archer counties in its warning area. Whenever referring to these counties collectively, it describes them as "western North Texas". For whatever that's worth.