YouTube just suggested on my YouTube feed a series of videos about closed stores in San Francisco (https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=san+francisco+closed+stores), including several from Metal Leo (https://www.youtube.com/@LeoMetalTraveler). One example is from Market Street and Powell:
I disagree with the assertion that eCommerce site Amazon killing off the business. It's more like the effects of Proposition 47 which changed certain crimes from felonies to misdomeniors (https://markholtz.info/prop47), such as shoplifting, grand theft, receiving stolen property, forgery, fraud, and/or writing a bad check where the value does not exceed $950. Combine that with the reluctance of prosecutors to pursue such low-value cases combined with the increased cost of business insurance, and look what we get.
The shoplift pushback in big cities in California isn't new, nor is it exclusive to California. When I worked market investigations at Sears Grand (2007-2010) in SoCal most of the larger cities didn't want to take our Booster cases unless they had a huge dollar value attached them (usually 10k or higher). That wasn't dissimilar to some cities in Arizona (Scottsdale mostly) which were also in my market. Mesa PD used to give my investigators crap about anything under $200 in value. The only big city that I really recall being super willing to prosecute shoplifters at any case value was Orlando.
The threshold I used to recommend closing stores was if a location exceeded 2% shrink for three years in a row and wasn't generating a net profit. Industry standard right now is about 1.3% inventory shrink. I did have a store once in Desert Hot Springs that was at 4.99% shrink when I took into my area at Beale's Outlet. That was probably the easiest closure recommendation I ever made.
Was the shoplifting to the point where even low-value items were locked behind cases requiring employees to unlock? Or that some alcohol products were behind in-store "fences"? (I observed this personally during a visit to California two months ago).
The Sears Grand store in East Los Angeles was so bad that our employees had to park in a specific place not to get their cars broken into. That was the same store that also had someone drive through the front door overnight to do a smash and grab. The further back in time you go, the more shoplifting was prevalent. I'd argue a large part of that was due to less high shrink items not being locked up.
Several things contributed to a downward trend in shoplift cases over the last two decades:
- CCTV improving greatly. Gone are the days of stores having floor walking LP and giant voids in camera coverage.
- EAS devices emerging and eventually being source tagged from vendors.
- Retail buyers being more inclined to lock up/protect high risk merchandise. Two decades ago, almost everything aside from high end electronics wasn't locked up.
- The emergence of Point of Sale exception reporting software.
- Big retailers are more selective regarding where they put stores. The trend used to be to chase cheap rent or low real estate value.
- Most big retailers have departments now that investigate Booster groups (Organized Retail Crime).
- Freight RFID is far more common and industry standard nowadays.
Worth noting, I've been working in the retail Loss Prevention field since 2001. What I was doing during 2001 has little in common with that I do now. Back in 2001 almost all LP work was about catching a quota of shoplifters and employee theft cases. We had little to do with inventory shrink management, profit protection or even safety.
The big trend with theft nowadays is the protective measures I described above. It's far more cost effective now to protect merchandise on the front end than try to apprehend an endless supply of shoplifters. Retailers on the whole are far more hesitant to let their staff go after low dollar/low value cases and usually have some sort of dollar limit threshold. I only know of a few retailers that allow hands-on apprehensions nowadays. Having giant fights with shoplifters turns out is bad for business (from a claims, liability and perception standpoint).
Most of what I do now is shrink mitigation, profit protection and safety mitigation. If retail LP is to remain viable it has to continue to evolve and be more than just about busting $20 shoplift cases that local authorities don't want to prosecute.
Some places seem to be going back to the REEEEALLY old school model of the neighborhood corner grocery store where the owner/clerk would get the list from the customer at the front counter and take the items off of the shelf that was behind him. This model went out shortly after WWII ended.
Mike
Quote from: ZLoth on July 09, 2023, 12:51:14 PM
I disagree with the assertion that eCommerce site Amazon killing off the business. It's more like the effects of Proposition 47 which changed certain crimes from felonies to misdomeniors (https://markholtz.info/prop47), such as shoplifting, grand theft, receiving stolen property, forgery, fraud, and/or writing a bad check where the value does not exceed $950. Combine that with the reluctance of prosecutors to pursue such low-value cases combined with the increased cost of business insurance, and look what we get.
California at $950 is actually one of the lowest meaning one of the easiest to prosecute.
https://worldpopulationreview.com/state-rankings/felony-theft-amount-by-state
Texas has the highest limit at $2,500
Quote from: mgk920 on July 10, 2023, 10:40:26 AM
Some places seem to be going back to the REEEEALLY old school model of the neighborhood corner grocery store where the owner/clerk would get the list from the customer at the front counter and take the items off of the shelf that was behind him. This model went out shortly after WWII ended.
Mike
There's a lot of efficiency to be gained by this model, especially in a culture that increasingly embraces food delivery services. I can easily see a model where perhaps you pick your own produce and there's still a meat/deli counter and bakery, but all your dry and frozen goods are selected on a kiosk or even in an app before you arrive. Smaller footprint and less labor gets spent on restocking shelves.
Quote from: fhmiii on July 10, 2023, 01:08:35 PM
Quote from: mgk920 on July 10, 2023, 10:40:26 AM
Some places seem to be going back to the REEEEALLY old school model of the neighborhood corner grocery store where the owner/clerk would get the list from the customer at the front counter and take the items off of the shelf that was behind him. This model went out shortly after WWII ended.
Mike
There's a lot of efficiency to be gained by this model, especially in a culture that increasingly embraces food delivery services. I can easily see a model where perhaps you pick your own produce and there's still a meat/deli counter and bakery, but all your dry and frozen goods are selected on a kiosk or even in an app before you arrive. Smaller footprint and less labor gets spent on restocking shelves.
But it would eliminate all the impulse buying when people don't see the items on the shelf as they pass by. They'd only buy what was on their list. Stores would probably not care for that.
Quote from: GaryV on July 10, 2023, 05:51:54 PM
Quote from: fhmiii on July 10, 2023, 01:08:35 PM
Quote from: mgk920 on July 10, 2023, 10:40:26 AM
Some places seem to be going back to the REEEEALLY old school model of the neighborhood corner grocery store where the owner/clerk would get the list from the customer at the front counter and take the items off of the shelf that was behind him. This model went out shortly after WWII ended.
Mike
There's a lot of efficiency to be gained by this model, especially in a culture that increasingly embraces food delivery services. I can easily see a model where perhaps you pick your own produce and there's still a meat/deli counter and bakery, but all your dry and frozen goods are selected on a kiosk or even in an app before you arrive. Smaller footprint and less labor gets spent on restocking shelves.
But it would eliminate all the impulse buying when people don't see the items on the shelf as they pass by. They'd only buy what was on their list. Stores would probably not care for that.
Maybe the clerk could be like Amazon and say "3 other customers who bought Ersatz Dill Pickles also bought Fee Fie Faux Mustard." Or more likely there's a flat screen run by an AI that overhears the customer and flashes recommendations on the screen behind the clerk.
Quote from: skluth on July 10, 2023, 05:56:40 PM
Quote from: GaryV on July 10, 2023, 05:51:54 PM
Quote from: fhmiii on July 10, 2023, 01:08:35 PM
Quote from: mgk920 on July 10, 2023, 10:40:26 AM
Some places seem to be going back to the REEEEALLY old school model of the neighborhood corner grocery store where the owner/clerk would get the list from the customer at the front counter and take the items off of the shelf that was behind him. This model went out shortly after WWII ended.
Mike
There's a lot of efficiency to be gained by this model, especially in a culture that increasingly embraces food delivery services. I can easily see a model where perhaps you pick your own produce and there's still a meat/deli counter and bakery, but all your dry and frozen goods are selected on a kiosk or even in an app before you arrive. Smaller footprint and less labor gets spent on restocking shelves.
But it would eliminate all the impulse buying when people don't see the items on the shelf as they pass by. They'd only buy what was on their list. Stores would probably not care for that.
Maybe the clerk could be like Amazon and say "3 other customers who bought Ersatz Dill Pickles also bought Fee Fie Faux Mustard." Or more likely there's a flat screen run by an AI that overhears the customer and flashes recommendations on the screen behind the clerk.
Telescreens, brought to you by Amazon.
Quote from: GaryV on July 10, 2023, 05:51:54 PM
Quote from: fhmiii on July 10, 2023, 01:08:35 PM
Quote from: mgk920 on July 10, 2023, 10:40:26 AM
Some places seem to be going back to the REEEEALLY old school model of the neighborhood corner grocery store where the owner/clerk would get the list from the customer at the front counter and take the items off of the shelf that was behind him. This model went out shortly after WWII ended.
Mike
There's a lot of efficiency to be gained by this model, especially in a culture that increasingly embraces food delivery services. I can easily see a model where perhaps you pick your own produce and there's still a meat/deli counter and bakery, but all your dry and frozen goods are selected on a kiosk or even in an app before you arrive. Smaller footprint and less labor gets spent on restocking shelves.
But it would eliminate all the impulse buying when people don't see the items on the shelf as they pass by. They'd only buy what was on their list. Stores would probably not care for that.
OKC has a startup chain called Jack Be where you do all the shopping on an app, then go to the store and they bring the whole order out to your car.
I'd imagine the small amount lost on impulse purchases is more than made up for by algorithmic product recommendations and overhead saved on not having to maintain the facility beyond the warehouse level, as well as not having to provide staff to field the "where's the ____?" sort of queries and get burger meat a customer decided they didn't want out of the baby food aisle where they left it. Also, shrink is probably way lower.
Quote from: Scott5114 on July 10, 2023, 08:26:07 PM
Quote from: GaryV on July 10, 2023, 05:51:54 PM
Quote from: fhmiii on July 10, 2023, 01:08:35 PM
Quote from: mgk920 on July 10, 2023, 10:40:26 AM
Some places seem to be going back to the REEEEALLY old school model of the neighborhood corner grocery store where the owner/clerk would get the list from the customer at the front counter and take the items off of the shelf that was behind him. This model went out shortly after WWII ended.
Mike
There's a lot of efficiency to be gained by this model, especially in a culture that increasingly embraces food delivery services. I can easily see a model where perhaps you pick your own produce and there's still a meat/deli counter and bakery, but all your dry and frozen goods are selected on a kiosk or even in an app before you arrive. Smaller footprint and less labor gets spent on restocking shelves.
But it would eliminate all the impulse buying when people don't see the items on the shelf as they pass by. They'd only buy what was on their list. Stores would probably not care for that.
OKC has a startup chain called Jack Be where you do all the shopping on an app, then go to the store and they bring the whole order out to your car.
I'd imagine the small amount lost on impulse purchases is more than made up for by algorithmic product recommendations and overhead saved on not having to maintain the facility beyond the warehouse level, as well as not having to provide staff to field the "where's the ____?" sort of queries and get burger meat a customer decided they didn't want out of the baby food aisle where they left it. Also, shrink is probably way lower.
Amazon has "others who bought this also bought," as well as various recommendations and sponsored items when you're searching for whatever you're trying to find. So does the app for my local grocery store. You won't have in-store displays, but you'd still have stuff to generate an impulse buy. Plus Point-Of-Sale displays (Cokes, M&Ms, chips, etc.) when you go in to collect your groceries or under the canopy when you're waiting for them to load you, which I'm certain can all be easily added to your existing order.
Exit gates like those have gotten me mixed into so many unnecessary fights with shoplifters. Target experimented with those in the early 2000s and it didn't exactly go great. It was ultimately just easier to try to sneak up on shoplifters or just stop them in the exterior of the exit.
But the chain with padlocks, yeah that's an odd one.
Quote from: ZLoth on July 21, 2023, 10:32:29 PM
:banghead:
It's not just in San Francisco but happening in parts of California. Note this segment focuses on Safeways NorCal outlets getting a security system like the one seen here. Sure some of this is that the homeless is not a San Francisco, Oakland and Berkeley issue but also spreading to suburban areas. I know there are issues of homeless staying around Supermarkets for resource reasons. Wait until Austin, DFW, Houston and San Antonio has the same issues in a few decades
The only place in the Central Valley I've seen controlled exits in general goods retail store is the Kings Canyon Road Walmart east of downtown Fresno. They were using turnstiles that could look for awhile but since went back to just manning them with receipt checkers.
Strangely the Vons on Kings Canyon Road has their batteries in a lockup. I happened to run into a department manager I know at the store and asked about it. Apparently they popped high on their previous physical inventory and that ended up being part of the shrink action plan (these are actual things retailers do). No other store in the immediate vicinity locks their batteries up.
How long before there is a serious push to repeal Pop. 47?
Mike
Quote from: mgk920 on July 22, 2023, 12:55:51 PM
How long before there is a serious push to repeal Pop. 47?
Mike
And would that change anything? Previous threshold for felony was $400, and probably was about the same back then when inflation is considered.
What is the threshold for sending someone to jail should be? They used to hang kids for a loaf of bread back in middle ages. Should that come back? Is there enough prosecutors and judges to manage punitive approach, or money to pay for imprisoned - and that isn't cheap as well?
What really changed is a social moral, when stealing from the big corporation or from rich in general isn't a bad thing any more. Cancel rent is on the same page, I would say. Neither can be easily repealed.
What would end up happening is that the felony cases more often than not would just get plead down to misdemeanors. That was standard practice in my first two stints in California and really everywhere else I've worked. Usually you have to get around 5k to get a police department and DA interested in felony prosecution for shoplifting.
There has been numerous times in the past where I've been subpoenaed to testify if felony shoplift cases. In almost every instance the case ends up getting pled down to a misdemeanor as the court date approaches. A lot of DA's like to use that as a carrot to avoid having to devote resources for shoplift court cases.
Also worth noting, Felony 6 shoplifting in Arizona began at $1,000 when I worked in the state circa 2001-2013. While it's easy to point fingers at California's legislature, the fact is that the felony thresholds for shoplifting in a lot of states is probably higher than what is being estimated in this thread. A couple of friends who worked for MCSO actually got in trouble (chewed out) for trying to cite $1,000 shoplift cases as Felony 6. The Maricopa County District Attorney's Office was not big on felony shoplifting cases.
Edit: Apparently ARS 13-1805 still hasn't changed this past decade:
https://azleg.gov/ars/13/01805.htm
I'd argue PC 495.5 as written is nominally more strict than ARS 13-1805.
https://www.shouselaw.com/ca/defense/penal-code/459-5/
Mods, might it be better to split or duplicate this retail Loss Prevention stuff into a new thread? Much of what has been discussed isn't exclusive to California but retail in general.
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on July 22, 2023, 02:47:42 PMMods, might it be better to split or duplicate this retail Loss Prevention stuff into a new thread? Much of what has been discussed isn't exclusive to California but retail in general.
Now done.
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on July 22, 2023, 02:44:17 PMWhat would end up happening is that the felony cases more often than not would just get plead down to misdemeanors. That was standard practice in my first two stints in California and really everywhere else I've worked. Usually you have to get around 5k to get a police department and DA interested in felony prosecution for shoplifting.
If I understand correctly what you have said here and elsewhere about your loss prevention work, it occurs in a military setting. Does access to Article 15 sanctions make it easier to control shrinkage than would be the case in the civilian world?
Quote from: J N Winkler on July 22, 2023, 03:29:44 PM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on July 22, 2023, 02:44:17 PMWhat would end up happening is that the felony cases more often than not would just get plead down to misdemeanors. That was standard practice in my first two stints in California and really everywhere else I've worked. Usually you have to get around 5k to get a police department and DA interested in felony prosecution for shoplifting.
If I understand correctly what you have said here and elsewhere about your loss prevention work, it occurs in a military setting. Does access to Article 15 sanctions make it easier to control shrinkage than would be the case in the civilian world?
Most definitely, but that shouldn't be all that surprising. The UCMJ tends to be very strict with enforcement and punishment. That said, I don't think something like the UCMJ is something that a would work in the Civilian world. That's not to say crime and shoplifting doesn't exist, it just is in lesser amounts.
Quote from: J N Winkler on July 22, 2023, 03:29:44 PM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on July 22, 2023, 02:44:17 PMWhat would end up happening is that the felony cases more often than not would just get plead down to misdemeanors. That was standard practice in my first two stints in California and really everywhere else I've worked. Usually you have to get around 5k to get a police department and DA interested in felony prosecution for shoplifting.
If I understand correctly what you have said here and elsewhere about your loss prevention work, it occurs in a military setting. Does access to Article 15 sanctions make it easier to control shrinkage than would be the case in the civilian world?
Sorry, one of my pet peeves. The proper retail term is "shrink." "Shrinkage" is what happens when you jump in Lake Superior in January.
Quote from: Road Hog on July 22, 2023, 04:13:38 PM
Quote from: J N Winkler on July 22, 2023, 03:29:44 PM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on July 22, 2023, 02:44:17 PMWhat would end up happening is that the felony cases more often than not would just get plead down to misdemeanors. That was standard practice in my first two stints in California and really everywhere else I've worked. Usually you have to get around 5k to get a police department and DA interested in felony prosecution for shoplifting.
If I understand correctly what you have said here and elsewhere about your loss prevention work, it occurs in a military setting. Does access to Article 15 sanctions make it easier to control shrinkage than would be the case in the civilian world?
Sorry, one of my pet peeves. The proper retail term is "shrink." "Shrinkage" is what happens when you jump in Lake Superior in January.
Or what happens when you were in the pool?
Quote from: Road Hog on July 22, 2023, 04:13:38 PM
Quote from: J N Winkler on July 22, 2023, 03:29:44 PM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on July 22, 2023, 02:44:17 PMWhat would end up happening is that the felony cases more often than not would just get plead down to misdemeanors. That was standard practice in my first two stints in California and really everywhere else I've worked. Usually you have to get around 5k to get a police department and DA interested in felony prosecution for shoplifting.
If I understand correctly what you have said here and elsewhere about your loss prevention work, it occurs in a military setting. Does access to Article 15 sanctions make it easier to control shrinkage than would be the case in the civilian world?
Sorry, one of my pet peeves. The proper retail term is "shrink." "Shrinkage" is what happens when you jump in Lake Superior in January.
or soil shrinkage on roadway construction projects.
Yikes with respect to those exit gates. What happens if you don't find what you want to buy? You have to buy something you don't want/need just to have a receipt to scan?
Quote from: kalvado on July 22, 2023, 01:54:51 PM
What really changed is a social moral, when stealing from the big corporation or from rich in general isn't a bad thing any more. Cancel rent is on the same page, I would say. Neither can be easily repealed.
Like a lot of other things that people who hold those views tend to espouse, this can be summed up with "did not think things through". If people are stealing everything from the store, then when you need something it might not be available. But just like with preferring shortages to higher prices, I also wonder if they even care, since they consider anyone who has money to buy things to be "rich" in the first place.
Quote from: bing101 on July 22, 2023, 11:10:48 AM
Quote from: ZLoth on July 21, 2023, 10:32:29 PM
:banghead:
It's not just in San Francisco but happening in parts of California. Note this segment focuses on Safeways NorCal outlets getting a security system like the one seen here. Sure some of this is that the homeless is not a San Francisco, Oakland and Berkeley issue but also spreading to suburban areas. I know there are issues of homeless staying around Supermarkets for resource reasons. Wait until Austin, DFW, Houston and San Antonio has the same issues in a few decades
A Safeway grocery store here rearranged the store to put the frequently stolen products in a store-within-a-store, with its own checkouts and low shelves so the customers can be observed. (However having to check out twice will be an annoyance to many customers.)
Regarding the "social moral" I would refer to my comments above about things being much worse even two decades ago. In the past, it was easier to steal with impunity and not likely to be caught on any sort of CCTV surveillance system. In fact, when I first started working in Loss Prevention we only had eight cameras in the entire store and had to floor walk all day. The cases back then were just common and routine, even the most economically well off areas that I worked in. EAS took a huge chunk out of that shoplift pie followed by enhancements to CCTV, market investigations, increased passive deterrent measures and exception reporting.
Worth noting, I recall my first boss telling me about his heyday of working at Mervyn's in Oakland. Apparently during the 1970s when 800 shoplift apprehensions was just the average year for the Loss Prevention department. That number always blew me away back then given it probably meant there was 5-7 people who got away for each caught. The most I ever caught in one single year by myself was at Dillard's in downtown Scottsdale and that was only about 70. We had about 200 in total for the year in a 350,000 square foot store.
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on July 22, 2023, 05:01:41 PM
Regarding the "social moral" I would refer to my comments above about things being much worse even two decades ago. In the past, it was easier to steal with impunity and not likely to be caught on any sort of CCTV surveillance system. In fact, when I first started working in Loss Prevention we only had eight cameras in the entire store and had to floor walk all day. The cases back then were just common and routine, even the most economically well off areas that I worked in. EAS took a huge chunk out of that shoplift pie followed by enhancements to CCTV, market investigations, increased passive deterrent measures and exception reporting.
Worth noting, I recall my first boss telling me about his heyday of working at Mervyn's in Oakland. Apparently during the 1970s when 800 shoplift apprehensions was just the average year for the Loss Prevention department. That number always blew me away back then given it probably meant there was 5-7 people who got away for each caught. The most I ever caught in one single year by myself was at Dillard's in downtown Scottsdale and that was only about 70. We had about 200 in total for the year in a 350,000 square foot store.
Didn't you say apprehension isn't done any more?
And I wonder what the shrinkage %% were back then.
Quote from: kalvado on July 22, 2023, 05:53:55 PM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on July 22, 2023, 05:01:41 PM
Regarding the "social moral" I would refer to my comments above about things being much worse even two decades ago. In the past, it was easier to steal with impunity and not likely to be caught on any sort of CCTV surveillance system. In fact, when I first started working in Loss Prevention we only had eight cameras in the entire store and had to floor walk all day. The cases back then were just common and routine, even the most economically well off areas that I worked in. EAS took a huge chunk out of that shoplift pie followed by enhancements to CCTV, market investigations, increased passive deterrent measures and exception reporting.
Worth noting, I recall my first boss telling me about his heyday of working at Mervyn's in Oakland. Apparently during the 1970s when 800 shoplift apprehensions was just the average year for the Loss Prevention department. That number always blew me away back then given it probably meant there was 5-7 people who got away for each caught. The most I ever caught in one single year by myself was at Dillard's in downtown Scottsdale and that was only about 70. We had about 200 in total for the year in a 350,000 square foot store.
Didn't you say apprehension isn't done any more?
And I wonder what the shrinkage %% were back then.
No, they are definitely still done. What's changed is the amount of them and how willing retailers are to allow hands apprehension techniques. The National Retail Foundation typically estimates industry shrink related directly to shoplifting somewhere between 33-37%. The lowest estimate I think that I've ever seen was 31% in the early 2010s?
Regarding overall shrink I recall when 1.5-1.8% in was considered a good shrink result. Nowadays that number tends to be from what I've seen 1.2% or lower.
For those that don't know, retail inventory shrink percentage is calculated by dividing the overall shrink dollar loss into retail net sales. Stuff like services related sales, vendor owner merchandise or consignment goods doesn't factor into inventory shrink given they are not merchandise owned by the retailer. Generally retailers assign a "shrink reserve" at the beginning of each Fiscal Year based off the three-five year history of shrink trends. If the overall shrink dollar number is lower than the reserve then it becomes income on the applicable store Profit & Loss statement.
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on July 22, 2023, 06:09:42 PM
Generally retailers assign a "shrink reserve" at the beginning of each Fiscal Year based off the three-five year history of shrink trends. If the overall shrink dollar number is lower than the reserve then it becomes income on the applicable store Profit & Loss statement.
...That follows GAAP?!
Quote from: Scott5114 on July 22, 2023, 06:51:42 PM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on July 22, 2023, 06:09:42 PM
Generally retailers assign a "shrink reserve" at the beginning of each Fiscal Year based off the three-five year history of shrink trends. If the overall shrink dollar number is lower than the reserve then it becomes income on the applicable store Profit & Loss statement.
...That follows GAAP?!
Heh, it certainly is a retail industry practice. Similarly, there usually is a reserve dollar amount usually set aside for WC/GL claims on retail P&L statements.
My thought on the topic is that the purpose of "reserves" is to make the money associated with things like shrink and claims real to the management on the store level. When I first became an LP Manager at Sears back in 2005 it was just me and General Manager who were reviewed on shrink/claims dollars. Nowadays I've noticed these both tend to be a review criterion for pretty much any exempt retail manager. Personally, I can get behind trying to push making a store profitable by operating correcting. In the past most retail store managers cared only about their department sales, even they were bleeding via poor net profit.
Quote from: ZLoth on July 09, 2023, 02:36:44 PM
Was the shoplifting to the point where even low-value items were locked behind cases requiring employees to unlock? Or that some alcohol products were behind in-store "fences"? (I observed this personally during a visit to California two months ago).
Some of the stores in Louisiana have the same look. WalMart...
Quote from: bwana39 on July 22, 2023, 09:31:02 PM
Quote from: ZLoth on July 09, 2023, 02:36:44 PM
Was the shoplifting to the point where even low-value items were locked behind cases requiring employees to unlock? Or that some alcohol products were behind in-store "fences"? (I observed this personally during a visit to California two months ago).
Some of the stores in Louisiana have the same look. WalMart...
I remember deciding not to buy Pokémon cards from Walmart any more when I was a kid because the one in Norman kept them locked up and I was too socially anxious to approach a store employee to unlock them for me. Around 2013 or so, I made the same choice with Hobby Lobby and its Copic markers because it was too much of a pain in the ass to track someone down when I didn't have to do that at Michaels. So it's certainly not a new or an only-in-California thing.
The amusing thing is that Pokémon cards have consistently been one of the most (if not the most) commonly stolen items in all the years I've been involved in Loss Prevention. One of my first shoplift cases I ever had involved a bunch of stolen Pokémon cards at Target in early 2002. The thefts became so frequent that I set up a special partition to watch the card display that used to be behind the last register at every Target. Every time one of my investigators gets a case involving Pokémon cards I get the strangest sense of nostalgia.
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on July 22, 2023, 06:09:42 PMRegarding overall shrink I recall when 1.5-1.8% in was considered a good shrink result. Nowadays that number tends to be from what I've seen 1.2% or lower.
I sincerely doubt that San Francisco/Oakland shrink rate is as low as 1.8%. Also, some store security guards there are quite helpless as they are prevented from going after the perpetrator per management decision. The fact that Walgreens, from the KTVU story I posted above, only wants the merchandise back and doesn't even want to press charges says something.
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on July 23, 2023, 06:43:17 AMThe amusing thing is that Pokémon cards have consistently been one of the most (if not the most) commonly stolen items in all the years I've been involved in Loss Prevention. One of my first shoplift cases I ever had involved a bunch of stolen Pokémon cards at Target in early 2002. The thefts became so frequent that I set up a special partition to watch the card display that used to be behind the last register at every Target. Every time one of my investigators gets a case involving Pokémon cards I get the strangest sense of nostalgia.
Actually, I'm not that terribly surprised. The small size of the item makes it really easily to slip into a pocket or purse. That's why some small items, such as pocket knives, end up being packaged in large clamshell packages. I once witnessed a discussionbetween employees where there was only the VHS box, but no tape. The thief had cut open the bottom of the case, stretched open the plastic case if it was a childrens movie, then put the box back on the shelf. Both Sam's Club and Cosco discontinued the sales of tobacco products several years ago because those products had to be caged because theft was just too high. Not directly related, but some suppliers of parts such as processors or memory sticks require that the each item be shipped separately, especially if you ordered two or three pairs of memory sticks. While it appears wasteful in packaging, they probably had one-too-many claims where "I ordered two sets of memory sticks, but only one set arrived".
I know that if I stole something while growing up, even if it was a minor item like a candy bar, I know that I would experience the fire and brimstone of my parents. Yet, there are many people who work, take advantage, or exploit the system and take advantage of every loophole available. California's proposition 47 classifying theft under $950 as a misdemeanor, plus the reluctance of prosecutors to follow through on those theft reports, plus the leanings of those judges, results in retailers not bothering to file a police report. Thus, the exploit.
Actions have consequences. Sometimes, those consequences are unplanned, unintended, and unexpected, yet can last for years, decades, or an entire lifetime.
Quote from: jamess on July 10, 2023, 12:44:28 PM
Quote from: ZLoth on July 09, 2023, 12:51:14 PM
I disagree with the assertion that eCommerce site Amazon killing off the business. It's more like the effects of Proposition 47 which changed certain crimes from felonies to misdomeniors (https://markholtz.info/prop47), such as shoplifting, grand theft, receiving stolen property, forgery, fraud, and/or writing a bad check where the value does not exceed $950. Combine that with the reluctance of prosecutors to pursue such low-value cases combined with the increased cost of business insurance, and look what we get.
California at $950 is actually one of the lowest meaning one of the easiest to prosecute.
https://worldpopulationreview.com/state-rankings/felony-theft-amount-by-state
Texas has the highest limit at $2,500
Sometimes, it's the State's Attorneys' (District Attorneys') willingness to prosecute.
It isn't just California. Things are bad enough in Chicago that Walgreens introduced a new store type in the South Loop.
https://blockclubchicago.org/2023/06/02/at-new-chicago-walgreens-you-can-only-browse-two-aisles-the-rest-of-the-store-is-locked-away/
QuoteThe new design at the Walgreens, 2 E. Roosevelt Road, places most of the merchandise in aisles behind staffed counters, with two interior aisles – covered by anti-theft detectors – where customers can browse and grab items themselves.
The store still has self-checkout stations for groceries, bandages, allergy and pain medication and other lower-cost products, and it has a pharmacy in the back.
But several regulars who shopped Thursday said they think the new design is an attempt to deter theft. There were 19 reported thefts at convenience or drug stores in the 100 block of East Roosevelt Road in 2022, according to police data.
Quote from: Scott5114 on July 23, 2023, 02:29:04 AM
Quote from: bwana39 on July 22, 2023, 09:31:02 PM
Quote from: ZLoth on July 09, 2023, 02:36:44 PM
Was the shoplifting to the point where even low-value items were locked behind cases requiring employees to unlock? Or that some alcohol products were behind in-store "fences"? (I observed this personally during a visit to California two months ago).
Some of the stores in Louisiana have the same look. WalMart...
I remember deciding not to buy Pokémon cards from Walmart any more when I was a kid because the one in Norman kept them locked up and I was too socially anxious to approach a store employee to unlock them for me. Around 2013 or so, I made the same choice with Hobby Lobby and its Copic markers because it was too much of a pain in the ass to track someone down when I didn't have to do that at Michaels. So it's certainly not a new or an only-in-California thing.
This comment is reminding me of the time a guy in my first-year dorm was talking about "exercising the right to buy nudie magazines" for the first time and hoping the checkout clerk wouldn't be a girl he knew. Makes me wonder how he did the first time he bought rubbers.
Some stores have Magic: the Gathering cards underneath the employee desk, but not all. That said, starting around 2019, there are "collector boosters" that go for about $25 and regular boosters of compilation sets that go for around $15 in addition to the normal $4-5 sets. (Collector boosters of "Double Masters 2022" went for $89, but you can typically only get those at stores that also host game events.)
Yugioh cards in the early 2000s were also a hot theft item. I haven't seen even an empty package on one of those in years lately though.
Quote from: Brandon on July 23, 2023, 08:08:19 AM
QuoteThe new design at the Walgreens, 2 E. Roosevelt Road, places most of the merchandise in aisles behind staffed counters, with two interior aisles – covered by anti-theft detectors – where customers can browse and grab items themselves.
This is just how every store was 110 years ago. Piggly Wiggly is credited for establishing the first store where the customers could take merchandise off the shelf in 1916.
Quote from: Scott5114 on July 23, 2023, 10:56:00 AM
Quote from: Brandon on July 23, 2023, 08:08:19 AM
QuoteThe new design at the Walgreens, 2 E. Roosevelt Road, places most of the merchandise in aisles behind staffed counters, with two interior aisles – covered by anti-theft detectors – where customers can browse and grab items themselves.
This is just how every store was 110 years ago. Piggly Wiggly is credited for establishing the first store where the customers could take merchandise off the shelf in 1916.
What's? So I have to go into a store and do the employee's job? Why don't they pay me to take items off the shelf? I'm only going to stores where the employees get the items for me.
Notice the similarities to self serve checkout complaints...
Quote from: ZLoth on July 23, 2023, 07:54:07 AM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on July 22, 2023, 06:09:42 PMRegarding overall shrink I recall when 1.5-1.8% in was considered a good shrink result. Nowadays that number tends to be from what I've seen 1.2% or lower.
I sincerely doubt that San Francisco/Oakland shrink rate is as low as 1.8%. Also, some store security guards there are quite helpless as they are prevented from going after the perpetrator per management decision. The fact that Walgreens, from the KTVU story I posted above, only wants the merchandise back and doesn't even want to press charges says something.
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on July 23, 2023, 06:43:17 AMThe amusing thing is that Pokémon cards have consistently been one of the most (if not the most) commonly stolen items in all the years I've been involved in Loss Prevention. One of my first shoplift cases I ever had involved a bunch of stolen Pokémon cards at Target in early 2002. The thefts became so frequent that I set up a special partition to watch the card display that used to be behind the last register at every Target. Every time one of my investigators gets a case involving Pokémon cards I get the strangest sense of nostalgia.
Actually, I'm not that terribly surprised. The small size of the item makes it really easily to slip into a pocket or purse. That's why some small items, such as pocket knives, end up being packaged in large clamshell packages. I once witnessed a discussionbetween employees where there was only the VHS box, but no tape. The thief had cut open the bottom of the case, stretched open the plastic case if it was a childrens movie, then put the box back on the shelf. Both Sam's Club and Cosco discontinued the sales of tobacco products several years ago because those products had to be caged because theft was just too high. Not directly related, but some suppliers of parts such as processors or memory sticks require that the each item be shipped separately, especially if you ordered two or three pairs of memory sticks. While it appears wasteful in packaging, they probably had one-too-many claims where "I ordered two sets of memory sticks, but only one set arrived".
I know that if I stole something while growing up, even if it was a minor item like a candy bar, I know that I would experience the fire and brimstone of my parents. Yet, there are many people who work, take advantage, or exploit the system and take advantage of every loophole available. California's proposition 47 classifying theft under $950 as a misdemeanor, plus the reluctance of prosecutors to follow through on those theft reports, plus the leanings of those judges, results in retailers not bothering to file a police report. Thus, the exploit.
Actions have consequences. Sometimes, those consequences are unplanned, unintended, and unexpected, yet can last for years, decades, or an entire lifetime.
Actually, I would be surprised if a major retail chain is operating in San Francisco and coming out with a shrink approaching 2%. The retailers that were having trouble largely have closed up shop already and moved on. The National Retail Foundation was pushing the city of San Francisco hard to increase enforcement of shoplifting offenses. I can't really comment fully given I don't work in the city and only know one person who does, but I would imagine the recent recall of the DA might have been of some help.
Regarding security guards, what do you mean by that exactly? A lot of stores have actual security guards that act as a visual deterrent and aren't really true LP in that they can't apprehend anyone. Target was posting door guards (Target Protection Specialists) for decades and they had no authority to apprehend anyone. Most LP is plain clothes and not uniformed, most states don't classify them as "true" security either. For example, LP investigators in Arizona were not required to get DPS guard cards.
The thing with Pokemon cards is that they have remained popular with younger more crime prone demographics for a quarter century. That coupled with the fact that they are generally not secured due to being low value is why they are often a hot theft item. The strange phenomenon to me now is that late 20s/early 30s types are usually buying up the Pokemon cards before anyone can steal them.
Regarding Prop 47, please refer to my comments regarding ARS 13-1805 in Arizona. Felony shoplifting has been $1,000 in Arizona my entire 22-year career, Prop 47 is more in the norm for felony shoplift classification and not really an outlier. The trouble you have in cities like San Francisco is an unwilling DA and Police Department to charge for property crimes in general. I've given a couple examples already of past instances where cities in other states have held similar stances.
Shrink in the health/beauty department section at my local Stop & Shop before it closed was about 9%.
Yeah that would do it. When I was a district LP manager at Beale's Outlet there was about a half dozen stores that had over shrink of 4-7%. None of them lasted three years before closed up. Some we decided it was cheaper to eat the remaining lease and close early. When I started the average shrink in my stores was 2.9%. It went down to about 1.7% by the time moved on three years later.
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on July 23, 2023, 09:08:40 PM
Yeah that would do it. When I was a district LP manager at Beale's Outlet there was about a half dozen stores that had over shrink of 4-7%. None of them lasted three years before closed up. Some we decided it was cheaper to eat the remaining lease and close early. When I started the average shrink in my stores was 2.9%. It went down to about 1.7% by the time moved on three years later.
To bring that 8nto perspective... Published operations margin for major retailers is in 1.5-3% range. Pretty comparable to shrink
I wonder if profit reduction due to online competition is the reason shoplifting became more of an issue
Quote from: kalvado on July 23, 2023, 09:45:04 PM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on July 23, 2023, 09:08:40 PM
Yeah that would do it. When I was a district LP manager at Beale's Outlet there was about a half dozen stores that had over shrink of 4-7%. None of them lasted three years before closed up. Some we decided it was cheaper to eat the remaining lease and close early. When I started the average shrink in my stores was 2.9%. It went down to about 1.7% by the time moved on three years later.
To bring that 8nto perspective... Published operations margin for major retailers is in 1.5-3% range. Pretty comparable to shrink
I wonder if profit reduction due to online competition is the reason shoplifting became more of an issue
With Beale's the problem was the stores were usually operated poorly and put in bad locations out west. Given they kind of were going for that Ross/TJ Maxx type customer in the Outlet stores online competition wasn't much of a problem. Shoplifting was a major problem, but it was also the tip of a massive iceberg of other shrink driving issues. The big hook Beale's had compared to the other Outlet style stores was the discount days for senior citizens. Worth noting my time at Beale's was circa 2010-2013 after I left a collapsing Sears.
Is there any other kind of Sears?
It is odd to recall an actual time when it wasn't a total flaming dumpster fire collapsing on itself. I started at Sears in 2005 as an LP Investigator a store that was doing about $54,000,000 in sales (large volume). The LP Manager was fired about a month into my tenure which led to me becoming the interim LP Manager for about six months. I did well enough that I was promoted to an LP Manager at a $30,000,000 Sears Store moderate/high volume. I ended up back over my original store about another eight/nine months after that.
The volume at both stores I worked at Sears declined from 2005-2007 but the bottom really fell out during 2008. The original store I described above bottom out with annual sales of $14,000,000 whereas the second had dropped to $11,000,000 by the time I quit in 2010.
The merger of Kmart and Sears happened in early 2005 a couple months before I started. The effects of this merger weren't really apparent to me until 2007 when a bunch of Kmart stores started becoming Sears Grand. For awhile Sears tried branding all managers as "Coaches" which I guess was a Kmart thing. I ended getting some market investigation stuff to do for the Southern California Sears Grand stores. They gradually over the course 2007-2010 returned to being Kmart. The product quality at Sears noticeably declined around 2007 when Kmart suppliers started getting involved.
Quote from: ZLoth on July 23, 2023, 07:54:07 AM
I know that if I stole something while growing up, even if it was a minor item like a candy bar, I know that I would experience the fire and brimstone of my parents. Yet, there are many people who work, take advantage, or exploit the system and take advantage of every loophole available. California's proposition 47 classifying theft under $950 as a misdemeanor, plus the reluctance of prosecutors to follow through on those theft reports, plus the leanings of those judges, results in retailers not bothering to file a police report. Thus, the exploit.
Actions have consequences. Sometimes, those consequences are unplanned, unintended, and unexpected, yet can last for years, decades, or an entire lifetime.
There are still plenty of kids who would receive similar treatment from their parents if they were caught stealing. Of course, they're not the ones stealing things.
As far as legal consequences go, I'm going to have my "don't make me tap the sign" moment here:
More severe penalties are not effective at deterring crime. A higher likelihood of getting caught is.
This is because the human mind is not very good at processing risks that are high consequence but low probability, and will tend to either dismiss them and not worry about them (people get in their cars all the time and don't worry about dying in a car crash) or in some cases be overly paranoid about them (some people are afraid of getting on a plane in case it crashes, even though this is statistically less likely than getting into a car crash).
This even bears out for minor offenses. Does anyone drive slower in states where the fines for speeding are higher? No. Does anyone drive slower through towns known to be notorious speed traps? Yes, absolutely.
Ergo, CA increasing the threshold for shoplifting being a felony doesn't encourage crime like you might think it does, because the magnitude of the penalty is far less important than the likelihood of ending up subject to it. DAs being unwilling to prosecute cases is more of an issue in that regard, but this isn't connected to felony vs. misdemeanor.
Quote from: Duke87 on August 01, 2023, 08:41:48 PMDAs being unwilling to prosecute cases is more of an issue in that regard, but this isn't connected to felony vs. misdemeanor.
There may be some connection - and a philosophical problem of the justice system which pretty much limits itself to either fines and imprisonment.
DAs definitely have more interest in dealing with bigger crimes - as justice itself is expensive, time consuming, and often counterproductive. So prosecuting a smaller crime, after plea down, may be a net loss for everyone. Fines are only that efficient, especially if offender has no money to pay, and may be damaging long term. And I don't understand idea of imprisonment as a way of punishing people in general. In smaller communities, social consequences of a crime were a significant part of restraint. Today not only communities became larger, so wrongdoings are not staining person socially any more - there is a concept of "poor person stealing from a rich corporation" which removes internal guilt as a stopping factor.
Most people would be offended by idea, but..... the more I think about it, the more sense corporal punishment for smaller crimes makes to me. Feel free to disagree.
Quote from: kalvado on August 02, 2023, 08:29:16 AM
Quote from: Duke87 on August 01, 2023, 08:41:48 PMDAs being unwilling to prosecute cases is more of an issue in that regard, but this isn't connected to felony vs. misdemeanor.
There may be some connection - and a philosophical problem of the justice system which pretty much limits itself to either fines and imprisonment.
DAs definitely have more interest in dealing with bigger crimes - as justice itself is expensive, time consuming, and often counterproductive. So prosecuting a smaller crime, after plea down, may be a net loss for everyone. Fines are only that efficient, especially if offender has no money to pay, and may be damaging long term. And I don't understand idea of imprisonment as a way of punishing people in general. In smaller communities, social consequences of a crime were a significant part of restraint. Today not only communities became larger, so wrongdoings are not staining person socially any more - there is a concept of "poor person stealing from a rich corporation" which removes internal guilt as a stopping factor.
Most people would be offended by idea, but..... the more I think about it, the more sense corporal punishment for smaller crimes makes to me. Feel free to disagree.
In some cases, they feel that the big corporation (or government for that matter) is "the man" that has exploited them. I can understand that sentiment, but that doesn't make it right.
This is also why I feel challenged with some of the fixed fines that are handed out. Depending on your income level, it can either have devastating effect on your finances if you are barely making ends meet driving your econobox or just another minor inconvenience if you are a rich "kid" with more money than brains driving a sports car that costs more than your combined apartment rent for the next sixty months. Thus, I'm in favor of making fines more income-based.
Quote from: ZLoth on August 02, 2023, 11:37:59 AM
Quote from: kalvado on August 02, 2023, 08:29:16 AM
Quote from: Duke87 on August 01, 2023, 08:41:48 PMDAs being unwilling to prosecute cases is more of an issue in that regard, but this isn't connected to felony vs. misdemeanor.
There may be some connection - and a philosophical problem of the justice system which pretty much limits itself to either fines and imprisonment.
DAs definitely have more interest in dealing with bigger crimes - as justice itself is expensive, time consuming, and often counterproductive. So prosecuting a smaller crime, after plea down, may be a net loss for everyone. Fines are only that efficient, especially if offender has no money to pay, and may be damaging long term. And I don't understand idea of imprisonment as a way of punishing people in general. In smaller communities, social consequences of a crime were a significant part of restraint. Today not only communities became larger, so wrongdoings are not staining person socially any more - there is a concept of "poor person stealing from a rich corporation" which removes internal guilt as a stopping factor.
Most people would be offended by idea, but..... the more I think about it, the more sense corporal punishment for smaller crimes makes to me. Feel free to disagree.
In some cases, they feel that the big corporation (or government for that matter) is "the man" that has exploited them. I can understand that sentiment, but that doesn't make it right.
This is also why I feel challenged with some of the fixed fines that are handed out. Depending on your income level, it can either have devastating effect on your finances if you are barely making ends meet driving your econobox or just another minor inconvenience if you are a rich "kid" with more money than brains driving a sports car that costs more than your combined apartment rent for the next sixty months. Thus, I'm in favor of making fines more income-based.
Income based is another can of worms. THere are a lot of fine print, from family size to living conditions to... wel a lot of variables.
And how are you going to apply that to folks who steal $900 worth of stuff to exchange for $100 worth of
controlled substance - with food stamps as the only other source of income? I suspect that is a non-negligible population among shoplifters...
Quote from: kalvado on August 02, 2023, 11:49:23 AM
Quote from: ZLoth on August 02, 2023, 11:37:59 AM
This is also why I feel challenged with some of the fixed fines that are handed out. Depending on your income level, it can either have devastating effect on your finances if you are barely making ends meet driving your econobox or just another minor inconvenience if you are a rich "kid" with more money than brains driving a sports car that costs more than your combined apartment rent for the next sixty months. Thus, I'm in favor of making fines more income-based.
Income based is another can of worms. THere are a lot of fine print, from family size to living conditions to... wel a lot of variables.
And how are you going to apply that to folks who steal $900 worth of stuff to exchange for $100 worth of controlled substance - with food stamps as the only other source of income? I suspect that is a non-negligible population among shoplifters...
I will acknowledge that I pulled from two very extreme ends of the income spectrum. Having said that, the alternative if you can't pay is spending some weekends doing community work such as picking up trash on a county highway.
Having said that, I'm also of the opinion that crime often beings at the small and young level. If you can "get away" with the small level, the next level being bigger until, some time later, the misdemenor level is now a felony level crime. But, I'm also of the opinion that there are some "kids" who are more "adult" (mature) than some "adults" who act like "kids" (immature) including making some decisions that have some of us roll our eyes and say "really"... especially if they are "Karins".
Theft is liking speeding on the in a lot of ways. Like speeding, a lot of people don't see a problem with stealing from a store until they roll the dice too many times and get caught. There isn't any level of education that is going to instill ethics into someone who weigh risk/reward in such a way as Duke described above. The best you can do is attempt to deter/mitigate as much as possible and forcibly stop the act when necessary.
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on August 02, 2023, 12:23:23 PM
Theft is liking speeding on the in a lot of ways. Like speeding, a lot of people don't see a problem with stealing from a store until they roll the dice too many times and get caught. There isn't any level of education that is going to instill ethics into someone who weigh risk/reward in such a way as Duke described above. The best you can do is attempt to deter/mitigate as much as possible and forcibly stop the act when necessary.
Well, "forcibly" seems pretty much off the table these days, right?
I still would love to live in the world where "Thou shalt not kill, thou shalt not steal" are more or less moral imperatives acquired early in life, rather than a religious dogma or re-phrase of a criminal code.
Quote from: kalvado on August 02, 2023, 12:37:29 PM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on August 02, 2023, 12:23:23 PM
Theft is liking speeding on the in a lot of ways. Like speeding, a lot of people don't see a problem with stealing from a store until they roll the dice too many times and get caught. There isn't any level of education that is going to instill ethics into someone who weigh risk/reward in such a way as Duke described above. The best you can do is attempt to deter/mitigate as much as possible and forcibly stop the act when necessary.
Well, "forcibly" seems pretty much off the table these days, right?
I still would love to live in the world where "Thou shalt not kill, thou shalt not steal" are more or less moral imperatives acquired early in life, rather than a religious dogma or re-phrase of a criminal code.
At the retail end it really isn't. In the last couple pages I noted most retailers are still permitting their LP staff to make apprehensions. What's changed is the amount of retailers that are willing to allow staff to go "hands on" with shoplifters.
I for one tend to be of the opinion that hands on shoplift apprehensions were more trouble than they were worth. All it took was someone to get hurt or an investigator using too much force to end up in a situation where a settlement payment or Workman's Comp claim became necessary.
Worth noting, fear of being prosecuted tends to only scare/deter regular people. I never found that the same threat carried much weight with season Boosters who were stealing for profit.
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on August 02, 2023, 01:15:49 PM
Quote from: kalvado on August 02, 2023, 12:37:29 PM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on August 02, 2023, 12:23:23 PM
Theft is liking speeding on the in a lot of ways. Like speeding, a lot of people don't see a problem with stealing from a store until they roll the dice too many times and get caught. There isn't any level of education that is going to instill ethics into someone who weigh risk/reward in such a way as Duke described above. The best you can do is attempt to deter/mitigate as much as possible and forcibly stop the act when necessary.
Well, "forcibly" seems pretty much off the table these days, right?
I still would love to live in the world where "Thou shalt not kill, thou shalt not steal" are more or less moral imperatives acquired early in life, rather than a religious dogma or re-phrase of a criminal code.
At the retail end it really isn't. In the last couple pages I noted most retailers are still permitting their LP staff to make apprehensions. What's changed is the amount of retailers that are willing to allow staff to go "hands on" with shoplifters.
I for one tend to be of the opinion that hands on shoplift apprehensions were more trouble than they were worth. All it took was someone to get hurt or an investigator using too much force to end up in a situation where a settlement payment or Workman's Comp claim became necessary.
Worth noting, fear of being prosecuted tends to only scare/deter regular people. I never found that the same threat carried much weight with season Boosters who were stealing for profit.
I may be lost with the terminology then. What is "hands-on apprehension" in your world? Using force rather than just words in a "non-hands on" event?
Quote from: kalvado on August 02, 2023, 05:07:12 PM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on August 02, 2023, 01:15:49 PM
Quote from: kalvado on August 02, 2023, 12:37:29 PM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on August 02, 2023, 12:23:23 PM
Theft is liking speeding on the in a lot of ways. Like speeding, a lot of people don't see a problem with stealing from a store until they roll the dice too many times and get caught. There isn't any level of education that is going to instill ethics into someone who weigh risk/reward in such a way as Duke described above. The best you can do is attempt to deter/mitigate as much as possible and forcibly stop the act when necessary.
Well, "forcibly" seems pretty much off the table these days, right?
I still would love to live in the world where "Thou shalt not kill, thou shalt not steal" are more or less moral imperatives acquired early in life, rather than a religious dogma or re-phrase of a criminal code.
At the retail end it really isn't. In the last couple pages I noted most retailers are still permitting their LP staff to make apprehensions. What's changed is the amount of retailers that are willing to allow staff to go "hands on" with shoplifters.
I for one tend to be of the opinion that hands on shoplift apprehensions were more trouble than they were worth. All it took was someone to get hurt or an investigator using too much force to end up in a situation where a settlement payment or Workman's Comp claim became necessary.
Worth noting, fear of being prosecuted tends to only scare/deter regular people. I never found that the same threat carried much weight with season Boosters who were stealing for profit.
I may be lost with the terminology then. What is "hands-on apprehension" in your world? Using force rather than just words in a "non-hands on" event?
What I mean is "physically restraining the shoplifter." The typical LP lingo is "hands on apprehension."
Not quite as good as Spider Wraps on steaks but close:
https://www.msn.com/en-us/foodanddrink/foodnews/when-we-were-leaving-it-beeped-walmart-shopper-finds-hidden-security-tag-under-steak/ar-AA1fOpWF
Security tags are probably better, they're more conspicuous. I've seen the spider wraps taken right off the package or the package torn open to get the spider wraps off.
The problem with Spider Wraps is that they are designed for large boxes. Outside of that application they aren't particularly useful due of a possible loose fit.
Quote from: fhmiii on July 10, 2023, 01:08:35 PM
I can easily see a model where perhaps you pick your own produce and there's still a meat/deli counter and bakery, but all your dry and frozen goods are selected on a kiosk or even in an app before you arrive. Smaller footprint and less labor gets spent on restocking shelves.
This isn't a whole lot different from online in-store pickup, which is offered by many grocery stores along with curbside pickup. The inner workings would be different, but the end result to the consumer is much the same.
My fitbit sets off some security sensors, but not others. So I can't wear it when I go to the mall.
One time while shopping at Fred Meyer (Kroger) on Sunday morning, someone leaving in front of me set off the security alarm with a cart full of beer and meat, all of it unbagged. The store has since put up gates and usually has a guard checking receipts, but he's not there all the time.
All those EAS towers do is picked up something magnetized. Usually running the offending item over a weak demagnetizer (like the ones they use in stores) is enough to stop it from activating the towers.
Quote from: ErmineNotyours on September 15, 2023, 05:10:40 AM
My fitbit sets off some security sensors, but not others. So I can't wear it when I go to the mall.
One time while shopping at Fred Meyer (Kroger) on Sunday morning, someone leaving in front of me set off the security alarm with a cart full of beer and meat, all of it unbagged. The store has since put up gates and usually has a guard checking receipts, but he's not there all the time.
Our local Dillon's (Kroger) recently installed gates, and at first it seemed like half the shoppers walking into the store would set off the alarm–my wife and me included. She does wear a Fitbit, so maybe that's it. Anyway, I always just ignore the alarms, as does nearly everyone else. Lately, it doesn't go off as frequently, so maybe they adjusted some settings or something.
The store has a security guard but, if he started checking receipts, then I'd just politely decline and walk right past him. It isn't Costco: I didn't agree to be hassled on my way out of the store.
There usually is a sensitivity setting on EAS towers. Most models come with some sort of wall mounted tracker nearby which counts the number of times it activates.
Quote from: fhmiii on July 10, 2023, 01:08:35 PM
I can easily see a model where perhaps you pick your own produce and there's still a meat/deli counter and bakery, but all your dry and frozen goods are selected on a kiosk or even in an app before you arrive. Smaller footprint and less labor gets spent on restocking shelves.
I think I'd rather not. There's still utilizing in selecting dry/frozen goods, even if it's less critical. I've seen cereal and frozen foods with busted up cardboard (which, while cosmetic, I'd rather not look at if given the choice), busted up soup containers (more critical), frozen veggies that were either frozen solid already or even had a hole in the bag, sliced bread that's near the expiration date or which doesn't have the expected number of slices (more important than one would think, since I'm single and only use it for toast at breakfast, so it lasts 9 days and keeping it in sync with my eggs makes managing grocery shopping much simpler since I'm on the spectrum, especially given how often I travel), etc.
Quote from: kphoger on September 15, 2023, 10:12:18 AMOur local Dillon's (Kroger) recently installed gates, and at first it seemed like half the shoppers walking into the store would set off the alarm–my wife and me included. She does wear a Fitbit, so maybe that's it. Anyway, I always just ignore the alarms, as does nearly everyone else. Lately, it doesn't go off as frequently, so maybe they adjusted some settings or something.
Are there turnstiles or something else that would freeze in place when the alarm goes off, or just sensor posts? I think we have the latter but not the former at 13th and West.
Quote from: J N Winkler on September 15, 2023, 01:15:20 PM
Quote from: kphoger on September 15, 2023, 10:12:18 AMOur local Dillon's (Kroger) recently installed gates, and at first it seemed like half the shoppers walking into the store would set off the alarm–my wife and me included. She does wear a Fitbit, so maybe that's it. Anyway, I always just ignore the alarms, as does nearly everyone else. Lately, it doesn't go off as frequently, so maybe they adjusted some settings or something.
Are there turnstiles or something else that would freeze in place when the alarm goes off, or just sensor posts? I think we have the latter but not the former at 13th and West.
Fire safety will require uninhibited evacuation. So no lockout options preventing exit will be allowed.
Quote from: kalvado on September 15, 2023, 01:26:17 PMFire safety will require uninhibited evacuation. So no lockout options preventing exit will be allowed.
I would love it if that were interpreted as prohibiting turnstiles altogether. Unfortunately, that is not the case here. There is a Walmart Neighborhood Market not far from me (21st and Amidon) that requires clearing a gate in order to enter, and I suspect they comply with the evacuation requirement by providing unimpeded access through the checkouts.
How the Emergency Exit signage configured in these stores?
Quote from: J N Winkler on September 15, 2023, 01:15:20 PM
Quote from: kphoger on September 15, 2023, 10:12:18 AM
Our local Dillon's (Kroger) recently installed gates, and at first it seemed like half the shoppers walking into the store would set off the alarm–my wife and me included. She does wear a Fitbit, so maybe that's it. Anyway, I always just ignore the alarms, as does nearly everyone else. Lately, it doesn't go off as frequently, so maybe they adjusted some settings or something.
Are there turnstiles or something else that would freeze in place when the alarm goes off, or just sensor posts? I think we have the latter but not the former at 13th and West.
They're just swing gates, and they're only on the
entrance (beyond where entering and exiting shoppers' paths intersect), which is to say that shoppers do not go through the gates between checkout and vestibule. They always open just fine. I honestly don't even know why they're there.
This is the Gucci Dillon's. You know the one.
Quote from: kphoger on September 15, 2023, 01:53:05 PMThey're just swing gates, and they're only on the entrance (beyond where entering and exiting shoppers' paths intersect), which is to say that shoppers do not go through the gates between checkout and vestibule. They always open just fine. I honestly don't even know why they're there.
This is the Gucci Dillon's. You know the one.
It sounds like the same setup as at the 21st and Amidon baby Walmart. I'm not going to be happy if they install them at the geezer/AARP Dillons.
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on September 15, 2023, 01:42:40 PMHow the Emergency Exit signage configured in these stores?
Dunno--I'll have a look (at 13th and West) when I do the weekly shopping tomorrow and report back.
Quote from: kphoger on September 15, 2023, 01:53:05 PM
Quote from: J N Winkler on September 15, 2023, 01:15:20 PM
Quote from: kphoger on September 15, 2023, 10:12:18 AM
Our local Dillon's (Kroger) recently installed gates, and at first it seemed like half the shoppers walking into the store would set off the alarm–my wife and me included. She does wear a Fitbit, so maybe that's it. Anyway, I always just ignore the alarms, as does nearly everyone else. Lately, it doesn't go off as frequently, so maybe they adjusted some settings or something.
Are there turnstiles or something else that would freeze in place when the alarm goes off, or just sensor posts? I think we have the latter but not the former at 13th and West.
They're just swing gates, and they're only on the entrance (beyond where entering and exiting shoppers' paths intersect), which is to say that shoppers do not go through the gates between checkout and vestibule. They always open just fine. I honestly don't even know why they're there.
This is the Gucci Dillon's. You know the one.
I assume gates are likely to prevent shoppers backstreaming (especially with unpaid goods) through the entrance.
MAYBE they would be de-activated by fire alarm and designed to fail open to reduce evacuation risks..
Well, the merchants could simply permanently close the stores, like they have been doing in many larger cities.
<sigh . . . >
Mike
Haven't heard from or seen any "updated" store designs locally or anywhere in New England.
Often times around here, big box stores may have local PD constantly on guard or special policemen (security guards with peace officer powers but limited only to the jurisdiction of the store).
When I worked LP at Dillard's in downtown Scottsdale we contracted guard staff duty to the Maricopa County Sheriff's Office. They had a sub station on the second floor in the Juniors department. Given the volume of shoplifters we had in that store it was certainly handy having them on hand.