Multi area code for one single city is pretty uncommon outside NANP. Outside NANP, telephone numbers will be adding one digit, instead of crazily introducing new area codes.
Multi area code makes people need to dial and say three more digits EVERY TIME you need to dial or say a number.
So it's 2 more digits: 10 instead of 8. Takes 0.3 seconds.
And that's if you're typing a number in, rather than clicking on the person's name on a phone.
The best chance for NANP to upgrade to 8-digit (for populous areas) is 1990s
This is the time all the needed splits had been done, making every area code reasonably sized.
For example, when 917 was being introduced to the big NYC area (both 212 and 718), it’s a better idea to upgrade 212 and 718 into 8 digits, so that no any changes will be needed until the foreseeable future.
Arizona’s best chance to upgrade to 8 digit is when 480 being introduced to further split 602 (after the 520 split), so the AZ will have only two area codes until today (and maybe forever).
About the “random” way to assign new area codes after 1995, when the ones with 0/1 in the middle exhausted:
It’s better to assign new area codes based on geographic. For example, 220-289 for New England, 820-879 for the Pacific, 950 to 989 for islands
The long distance prefix should also be changed to 0 and 00, from 1 and 011. This makes 1XX area codes and local phone numbers starting with 1 possible. Area codes ending in repeating digits can be migrated to 1XX then. The number for operator long distance call 0 could be 100 then.
Quote from: jeffandnicole on September 03, 2023, 01:03:10 AM
So it's 2 more digits: 10 instead of 8. Takes 0.3 seconds.
And that's if you're typing a number in, rather than clicking on the person's name on a phone.
That's way more than 0.3s.
There's usually a full stop between every three digits.
In eight digits, there would be one fewer stop (1s) than ten digits, you can group it into two 4 digits. one additional digits costs you 0.3s. This turns out to be a net save of 0.7s.
So basically a nominal non-problem for almost everyone outside this forum?
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on September 03, 2023, 02:07:02 AM
So basically a nominal non-problem for almost everyone outside this forum?
And the majority, except 1, inside this forum as well.
The only reason I know my wife's phone number is that I have to keep typing it in at Meijer's to get the perks. If I ever have to call her, it's by her name from my contacts. I haven't typed in a phone number for anyone I know in years.
Quote from: geek11111 on September 03, 2023, 01:18:19 AM
About the "random" way to assign new area codes after 1995, when the ones with 0/1 in the middle exhausted:
It's better to assign new area codes based on geographic. For example, 220-289 for New England, 820-879 for the Pacific, 950 to 989 for islands
The problem with a geographic scheme for area codes is: what happens when population/number utilization projections over the long term differ from expectations, or when growth defies a clean numbering pattern? Amateur radio licensing has that issue right now; the number in system-generated ham callsigns is driven by geography based on poulation at the end of WW2. Today, however, there are as many hams in region 4 (the southeastern US) as in regions 1-3 (the northeast) combined....and region 4 has run out of certain classes of amateur callsigns.
There is method to the madness when it comes to the NANP area code assignments: originally, area codes were assigned so that most-called areas had shorter area codes with the pulse dialing system that preceded touch-tones. Before the mid-90's, new area codes were drawn from the few numbers left over (or that became available when the system was adjusted to allow 0 in the final position). After the mid-90's, when the second digit of area codes were allowed to be 2-8 (and, as someone who at that time lived in one of the first of those new area codes (334)...that was a painful transition), area codes are assigned so as to be distinct from nearby area codes, or the area codes they overlap.
And of course, with the rise of cell phones sold by nationwide carriers and number portability, the decline of landline phones, and the mobility of the public....it's past time to think about area codes being "area codes".
These days, I'm mostly physically in area code +1 860/959. The 4 numbers I give out (long story) begin +1 678, +1 781, +1 438, and +44 28. I am sometimes obliged to share my cell number, which is a +1 860 number, when a company doesn't believe that the +1 678 number is valid for text messages...but I'm almost certainly going to keep that cell number if/when I move.
Also to illustrate the point: https://xkcd.com/1129/
There are still a lot of available but unused 3-digit numbers for area codes. I don't see them running out any time soon, especially with the decrease in population growth.
Quote from: 1 on September 03, 2023, 09:36:46 AM
There are still a lot of available but unused 3-digit numbers for area codes. I don't see them running out any time soon, especially with the decrease in population growth.
The last projection I saw was that we won't run out of the 674 available area codes until after 2050. I don't know whether that considers possible expansion of the numbers reserved for toll-free or "non-geographic" uses.
Of course, we presumably could extend it further if we quit tying area codes to geography....
Quote from: MikeTheActuary on September 03, 2023, 10:44:21 AM
Quote from: 1 on September 03, 2023, 09:36:46 AM
There are still a lot of available but unused 3-digit numbers for area codes. I don't see them running out any time soon, especially with the decrease in population growth.
The last projection I saw was that we won't run out of the 674 available area codes until after 2050. I don't know whether that considers possible expansion of the numbers reserved for toll-free or "non-geographic" uses.
Of course, we presumably could extend it further if we quit tying area codes to geography....
The bigger issue is the 3 digit exchanges in 123-xxx-7890, which are doled out in blocks. Originally, they were often assigned to specific areas and specific carriers. If 456 went to ABC Cell and they only have 4 phones in their geographic region, the remaining 9996 numbers can't be used.
I know this changed a number of years ago, and I believe the block became 4 digit blocks (ie: 123-456-7xxx) giving carriers only 1,000 numbers to use. This may have changed some more, but chances are there's a whole lot of phone numbers available out there, but past practices limit how those numbers are provided, causing them to remain unused.
For those around before the cell phone era, they probably remember their town had specific exchanges that everyone had. In my town, it was always 609-468-xxxx, which was enough to satisfy 10,000 residents and businesses and were reused after someone moved away or otherwise didn't need that number. After the area grew, people started getting second lines for their teens, etc, they also incorporated 609-464-xxxx. Then fax machines became a thing, eating up more numbers. Today, I imagine many of those numbers go unused because they're specific to Verizon's Landline Blocks, and fewer and fewer people have landlines.
Quote from: jeffandnicole on September 03, 2023, 11:04:16 AM
Quote from: MikeTheActuary on September 03, 2023, 10:44:21 AM
Quote from: 1 on September 03, 2023, 09:36:46 AM
There are still a lot of available but unused 3-digit numbers for area codes. I don't see them running out any time soon, especially with the decrease in population growth.
The last projection I saw was that we won't run out of the 674 available area codes until after 2050. I don't know whether that considers possible expansion of the numbers reserved for toll-free or "non-geographic" uses.
Of course, we presumably could extend it further if we quit tying area codes to geography....
The bigger issue is the 3 digit exchanges in 123-xxx-7890, which are doled out in blocks. Originally, they were often assigned to specific areas and specific carriers. If 456 went to ABC Cell and they only have 4 phones in their geographic region, the remaining 9996 numbers can't be used.
I know this changed a number of years ago, and I believe the block became 4 digit blocks (ie: 123-456-7xxx) giving carriers only 1,000 numbers to use. This may have changed some more, but chances are there's a whole lot of phone numbers available out there, but past practices limit how those numbers are provided, causing them to remain unused.
For those around before the cell phone era, they probably remember their town had specific exchanges that everyone had. In my town, it was always 609-468-xxxx, which was enough to satisfy 10,000 residents and businesses and were reused after someone moved away or otherwise didn't need that number. After the area grew, people started getting second lines for their teens, etc, they also incorporated 609-464-xxxx. Then fax machines became a thing, eating up more numbers. Today, I imagine many of those numbers go unused because they're specific to Verizon's Landline Blocks, and fewer and fewer people have landlines.
Upgrading to 8 digits also solves this problem, this provides 10x central offices, and make area codes 10x slower to be consumed.
Quote from: geek11111 on September 03, 2023, 01:12:57 PM
Upgrading to 8 digits also solves this problem, this provides 10x central offices
What are the "central offices"?
Area codes having a geographic meaning was pretty much doomed when we started letting people keep their phone number when they move.
Quote from: Jim on September 03, 2023, 01:20:51 PM
Quote from: geek11111 on September 03, 2023, 01:12:57 PM
Upgrading to 8 digits also solves this problem, this provides 10x central offices
What are the "central offices"?
The middle group of digits
Quote from: kkt on September 03, 2023, 01:26:51 PM
Area codes having a geographic meaning was pretty much doomed when we started letting people keep their phone number when they move.
Nah. They still indicate where someone lived when they got their phone.
Or, where have he been stayed for a while in this life
Quote from: Jim on September 03, 2023, 01:20:51 PM
Quote from: geek11111 on September 03, 2023, 01:12:57 PM
Upgrading to 8 digits also solves this problem, this provides 10x central offices
What are the "central offices"?
but 10x fewer area codes, if you want to keep 10-digit system.
Others may disagree with this, but my feeling about area codes is this... if you're someone who works in a job supervised by others and just needs it as a way to communicate, keep your number regardless of where you live. But if you're a contractor or for-hire business person, it may be wise to get a new phone number with an area code of the local area. If I'm looking for potential contractors and they have an area code from several states away, I don't know if he lives several states away, or maybe a fly-by-night person that won't be around to finiah the job. I prefer to deal with someone who has a phone number more locally.
Quote from: kalvado on September 03, 2023, 01:52:19 PM
Quote from: Jim on September 03, 2023, 01:20:51 PM
Quote from: geek11111 on September 03, 2023, 01:12:57 PM
Upgrading to 8 digits also solves this problem, this provides 10x central offices
What are the "central offices"?
but 10x fewer area codes, if you want to keep 10-digit system.
11 digits for area codes upgraded to 8 digits, 10 digits otherwise.
Quote from: jeffandnicole on September 03, 2023, 01:56:13 PM
Others may disagree with this, but my feeling about area codes is this... if you're someone who works in a job supervised by others and just needs it as a way to communicate, keep your number regardless of where you live. But if you're a contractor or for-hire business person, it may be wise to get a new phone number with an area code of the local area. If I'm looking for potential contractors and they have an area code from several states away, I don't know if he lives several states away, or maybe a fly-by-night person that won't be around to finiah the job. I prefer to deal with someone who has a phone number more locally.
That's why there are phones with 2 sim cards
Quote from: kkt on September 03, 2023, 01:26:51 PM
Area codes having a geographic meaning was pretty much doomed when we started letting people keep their phone number when they move.
...and when businesses (and a few oddball individuals like me) started using VOIP.
Quote from: jeffandnicole on September 03, 2023, 01:56:13 PM
Others may disagree with this, but my feeling about area codes is this... if you're someone who works in a job supervised by others and just needs it as a way to communicate, keep your number regardless of where you live. But if you're a contractor or for-hire business person, it may be wise to get a new phone number with an area code of the local area. If I'm looking for potential contractors and they have an area code from several states away, I don't know if he lives several states away, or maybe a fly-by-night person that won't be around to finiah the job. I prefer to deal with someone who has a phone number more locally.
Agreed. Here in the Myrtle Beach area nearly everyone is a transplant, so it's hard to tell. When I started applying to internships, I used the second sim on my phone to get an 843 number to seem more "local"
Quote from: jeffandnicole on September 03, 2023, 11:04:16 AM
For those around before the cell phone era, they probably remember their town had specific exchanges that everyone had. In my town, it was always 609-468-xxxx, which was enough to satisfy 10,000 residents and businesses and were reused after someone moved away or otherwise didn't need that number. After the area grew, people started getting second lines for their teens, etc, they also incorporated 609-464-xxxx. Then fax machines became a thing, eating up more numbers. Today, I imagine many of those numbers go unused because they're specific to Verizon's Landline Blocks, and fewer and fewer people have landlines.
It was less than ten years between (1) my hometown having four-digit dialing and (2) our family having a cell phone.
I was born in 1981; in the fifth grade, if I needed to call my mom at work, I simply had to dial 3211. Moreover, every phone number in town began with (913) 626-3xxx or (913) 626-9xxx–so every number we ever actually had to dial was 3xxx or 9xxx. It switched to seven-digit dialing in the early 1990s.
Quote from: kphoger on September 07, 2023, 02:53:26 PM
Quote from: jeffandnicole on September 03, 2023, 11:04:16 AM
For those around before the cell phone era, they probably remember their town had specific exchanges that everyone had. In my town, it was always 609-468-xxxx, which was enough to satisfy 10,000 residents and businesses and were reused after someone moved away or otherwise didn't need that number. After the area grew, people started getting second lines for their teens, etc, they also incorporated 609-464-xxxx. Then fax machines became a thing, eating up more numbers. Today, I imagine many of those numbers go unused because they're specific to Verizon's Landline Blocks, and fewer and fewer people have landlines.
It was less than ten years between (1) my hometown having four-digit dialing and (2) our family having a cell phone.
I was born in 1981; in the fifth grade, if I needed to call my mom at work, I simply had to dial 3211. Moreover, every phone number in town began with (913) 626-3xxx or (913) 626-9xxx–so every number we ever actually had to dial was 3xxx or 9xxx. It switched to seven-digit dialing in the early 1990s.
My grandparents lived in Lake City, MN. The everything was either 612-343-xxxx or 612-345-xxxx. So, in town, you only had to dial the last five digits. I think it was a similar time frame when it went away, circa 1994.
I remember in my hometown, our phones always began with (313) 77x-xxxx. by the mid 80s, our area ran out of the 77x numbers and started to assign the 445-xxxx numbers in our town. in 10 years we went without moving from the 313 area code to the 810 area code to the 586 area code.
Quote from: geek11111 on September 03, 2023, 12:59:56 AM
Multi area code for one single city is pretty uncommon outside NANP. Outside NANP, telephone numbers will be adding one digit, instead of crazily introducing new area codes.
Multi area code makes people need to dial and say three more digits EVERY TIME you need to dial or say a number.
Mexico does this by using two-digit area codes for its three largest metro areas, and three-digit area codes for the rest of the country. But the rest of the phone number in those three metro areas is eight digits instead of seven. For example:
(81) 8058-1948 = a Burger King in Monterrey, Nuevo León
(844) 485-3689 = a Burger King in Saltillo, Coahuila
This is really no different than assigning area codes 810 through 819 to Monterrey. And, in fact, that's exactly what it is. Area codes are assigned geographically by region in Mexico. Monterrey is in the 800s region anyway. Same with Guadalajara, which has area code 44 and is in the 400s region anyway. Same with Mexico City, which has area code 55 and is in the 500s region anyway.
I actually prefer that area codes
not be assigned geographically by region. It's harder for me to keep similar numbers straight in my head. So, for example, the town I travel to in Mexico has area code 842, and the state capital has area code 844, but I can never seem to remember which is which. Yeah, it's clear that both of them are in the same region, but that doesn't help me figure out what area code to put in my cell phone when trying to dial a business if the sign I'm looking at only has the last seven digits displayed.
The same practice is seen in Spain, most notably Madrid and Barcelona. They get assigned two digit area codes instead of the usual three digit ones. The rest of the phone number then has 7 digits instead of the usual 6. This also affects the format of the phone numbers, which are written 91 xxx xx xx (91 = Madrid) as opposed to the usual 974 xx xx xx (974 = Huesca). I despise that format, and I prefer to write every number in the same one for consistency sake, thus putting the first digit of the rest of the phone with the area code: 91x xx xx xx.
In the last few years some provinces using three digit area codes have started to run out of numbers for land lines, and thus have gotten assigned another starting with 8, e.g. 876 for Zaragoza complementing 976 (Huesca still has room on its 974, and thus 874 isn't available yet). And unlike in the NANP, in Spain cell phones have a different, non-geographical range starting with 6 (and most recently 7 too), so the "traditional" area codes aren't depleting that fast.
Quote from: kphoger on September 07, 2023, 02:53:26 PM
Quote from: jeffandnicole on September 03, 2023, 11:04:16 AM
For those around before the cell phone era, they probably remember their town had specific exchanges that everyone had. In my town, it was always 609-468-xxxx, which was enough to satisfy 10,000 residents and businesses and were reused after someone moved away or otherwise didn't need that number. After the area grew, people started getting second lines for their teens, etc, they also incorporated 609-464-xxxx. Then fax machines became a thing, eating up more numbers. Today, I imagine many of those numbers go unused because they're specific to Verizon's Landline Blocks, and fewer and fewer people have landlines.
It was less than ten years between (1) my hometown having four-digit dialing and (2) our family having a cell phone.
I was born in 1981; in the fifth grade, if I needed to call my mom at work, I simply had to dial 3211. Moreover, every phone number in town began with (913) 626-3xxx or (913) 626-9xxx–so every number we ever actually had to dial was 3xxx or 9xxx. It switched to seven-digit dialing in the early 1990s.
As I've noted in other "area code" threads, I grew up in the DC area. We always had to dial seven digits, but we had a possibly unique situation in that for many years, the city and the immediate suburbs in Virginia and Maryland had things set up so you didn't need to dial the area code for cross-jurisdiction calling even though you were calling a number in a different area code. That is, for example, when I was a little kid we lived in what the post office considers Annandale, Virginia (near Fairfax Hospital, for those who know the area), and my father worked in downtown DC. We had a 703 area code; my dad's office had a 202. My mom could call him at work by simply dialing ###-####, seven digits with no area code. The way that worked–and the reason it ultimately had to be eliminated in 1990–was that no exchange was repeated across area codes. If, for example, your phone number in Virginia was 698-####, nobody in DC nor in the close-in Maryland suburbs could have a 698- number (although someone further out in a part of Maryland that required a long-distance call presumably could, as back then all of Maryland had the 301 area code). You can easily see why that system eventually broke down and had to be eliminated.
Our younger forum members would probably shrug and say "no big deal." Nowadays that would be true, but remember that in 1990 an awful lot of people still had rotary phones, and remember that all three area codes contained a zero (the number that required the longest twist of the dial). In that sense, adding the requirement to dial the area code was a non-trivial nuisance–and, of course, there was no speed-dial or one-touch dialing on most rotary phones made for home use.
What I do not remember is where the line was between local and long-distance in either Virginia or Maryland. Back then, 703 extended all the way down to Cumberland Gap. Obviously Roanoke was a long-distance call. I seem to remember Leesburg being a toll call charged at less than the normal long-distance rate. Setting aside that younger forum members will think the idea of long-distance calling sounds like something from ancient times, what I find interesting about that is the idea that Leesburg was not part of the local DC area because it shows how times have changed and the area has grown. Leesburg, which is about 33 miles from DC, was considered way out in the sticks when I was a kid. It was the type of place your father might decide to visit on a Sunday drive. Nowadays it's just one of the more distant suburbs (not even really an "exurb").
Quote from: geek11111 on September 03, 2023, 12:59:56 AM
Multi area code for one single city is pretty uncommon outside NANP. Outside NANP, telephone numbers will be adding one digit, instead of crazily introducing new area codes.
Multi area code makes people need to dial and say three more digits EVERY TIME you need to dial or say a number.
Historically, the people administering the NANP would split area codes based on region; for example; Chicago's 312 area code was split off into 708 and 312, and then further into 773. This would continue to enable 7 digit dialing in the area code in most places.
What happened afterwards is that in the nineties, these splits became extremely common because of fax machines and modems and stuff, and people started to have to change their phone numbers every few years at the will of the system, to much cost and inconvenience, so they just put overlays on so everyone could keep the same number.
Then, every jurisdiction using the 988 office code (3 digits after area code) had to either reassign those numbers or adopt ten digit dialing because that number became a code for the suicide hotline, sometime shortly before 2020.
As someone whose parents were relatively late adopters of cell phones, and who witnessed the transition of the 708 area code from 7 to 11 digit dialing (need a 1 in front in 708), I really don't mind dialing the four extra digits if it means my phone number doesn't have to change every five years, or if someone can quickly access the suicide hotline when they really need to. Sure, the NANP is problematic, but this solution is the least problematic. A better numbering system would have been the best solution, but it's a little bit too late for that.
^^^^
Another factor was that area code splits became impractical because the area codes would cover such a minuscule geographic area.
Maybe this phone number system would be better:
All numbers are 10 digits long, with trunk prefix 0 and nine numbers. The first one, two, three or four numbers after the zero are the area code. The possible formats are: 0A LLL LL LL, 0AA LLL LLL, 0AAA LL LL and 0AAAA LLLL.
Larger cities have shorter area codes and smaller cities have longer area codes. The trunk prefix must be dialed with domestic calls, but not after international calles. The examaple is:
LLL LL LL (within New York)
01 LLL LL LL (within US)
+1 1 LLL LL LL (outside US)
This could be expanded to 11 digits when exhaustion occurs.
We already have a good system in place. As for expanding to 11 digits, we've already thought of that, which is why area codes can't have 9 as a middle digit.
Quote from: 1995hoo on September 08, 2023, 09:43:16 AM
What I do not remember is where the line was between local and long-distance in either Virginia or Maryland. Back then, 703 extended all the way down to Cumberland Gap. Obviously Roanoke was a long-distance call. I seem to remember Leesburg being a toll call charged at less than the normal long-distance rate. Setting aside that younger forum members will think the idea of long-distance calling sounds like something from ancient times, what I find interesting about that is the idea that Leesburg was not part of the local DC area because it shows how times have changed and the area has grown. Leesburg, which is about 33 miles from DC, was considered way out in the sticks when I was a kid. It was the type of place your father might decide to visit on a Sunday drive. Nowadays it's just one of the more distant suburbs (not even really an "exurb").
We had a relatively small area for free calls, and most of those free calls were in towns to our North, South & West. We were on the eastern side of our area. If we called one town over to the east, that was a toll call. However, that town also shared the same zip code as my town. So we could be calling a number in the same zip code, yet be charged for the call.
Quote from: geek11111 on September 03, 2023, 01:18:19 AM
About the "random" way to assign new area codes after 1995, when the ones with 0/1 in the middle exhausted:
It's better to assign new area codes based on geographic. For example, 220-289 for New England, 820-879 for the Pacific, 950 to 989 for islands
Absolutely not
Quote from: Poiponen13 on September 08, 2023, 10:18:24 AM
Maybe this phone number system would be better:
All numbers are 10 digits long, with trunk prefix 0 and nine numbers. The first one, two, three or four numbers after the zero are the area code. The possible formats are: 0A LLL LL LL, 0AA LLL LLL, 0AAA LL LL and 0AAAA LLLL.
Larger cities have shorter area codes and smaller cities have longer area codes. The trunk prefix must be dialed with domestic calls, but not after international calles. The examaple is:
LLL LL LL (within New York)
01 LLL LL LL (within US)
+1 1 LLL LL LL (outside US)
This could be expanded to 11 digits when exhaustion occurs.
The problem with phone number systems with different numbers of digits, is the system has to somehow distinguish when a user has dialed a complete number or not, which is not an issue in systems like the USA/NANP where phone numbers have a specific number of digits
Quote from: ran4sh on September 08, 2023, 11:03:52 AM
The problem with phone number systems with different numbers of digits, is the system has to somehow distinguish when a user has dialed a complete number or not, which is not an issue in systems like the USA/NANP where phone numbers have a specific number of digits
As I recall, this issue was also part of the reason why it became necessary to dial "1" to place a long-distance call–that initial "1" told the system that what came next would be an area code, rather than a local exchange. I remember I once had a work phone number on local DC exchange 310 and on a couple of occasions I got wrong-number calls from people who were trying to call Los Angeles and forgot to dial "1" first.
The biggest problem in moving from a seven-digit dialing number to a eight-digit dialing number is the equipment compatibility and if the backend software can support eight digits. This not only applies to the telecommunications providers (both mobile and landline), but also office PBXs as well. There is also the associated cost of printing new stationary and updating contact information.
Quote from: 1 on September 08, 2023, 10:21:14 AMWe already have a good system in place. As for expanding to 11 digits, we've already thought of that, which is why area codes can't have 9 as a middle digit.
And, as Las Vegas learned, you cannot have three consecutive digits as an area code. Las Vegas learned that in 1997 when they wanted area code 777.
Quote from: ZLoth on September 08, 2023, 11:33:01 AM
The biggest problem in moving from a seven-digit dialing number to a eight-digit dialing number is the equipment compatibility and if the backend software can support eight digits. This not only applies to the telecommunications providers (both mobile and landline), but also office PBXs as well. There is also the associated cost of printing new stationary and updating contact information.
Quote from: 1 on September 08, 2023, 10:21:14 AMWe already have a good system in place. As for expanding to 11 digits, we've already thought of that, which is why area codes can't have 9 as a middle digit.
And, as Las Vegas learned, you cannot have three consecutive digits as an area code. Las Vegas learned that in 1997 when they wanted area code 777.
Or more specifically, the last 2 digits can't be the same as that is reserved for other purposes, including toll-free numbers.
Quote from: ran4sh on September 08, 2023, 11:03:52 AM
The problem with phone number systems with different numbers of digits, is the system has to somehow distinguish when a user has dialed a complete number or not, which is not an issue in systems like the USA/NANP where phone numbers have a specific number of digits
It already does that. The phone system knows that, when you call the health and human services hotline, you're not dialing a 7-or 10-digit number starting with 211.
Quote from: ZLoth on September 08, 2023, 11:33:01 AM
The biggest problem in moving from a seven-digit dialing number to a eight-digit dialing number is the equipment compatibility and if the backend software can support eight digits. This not only applies to the telecommunications providers (both mobile and landline), but also office PBXs as well. There is also the associated cost of printing new stationary and updating contact information.
There would be a tremendous IT cost to everyone who keeps track of phone numbers. It would rival Y2K.
Quote from: GaryV on September 08, 2023, 01:09:47 PM
Quote from: ZLoth on September 08, 2023, 11:33:01 AM
The biggest problem in moving from a seven-digit dialing number to a eight-digit dialing number is the equipment compatibility and if the backend software can support eight digits. This not only applies to the telecommunications providers (both mobile and landline), but also office PBXs as well. There is also the associated cost of printing new stationary and updating contact information.
There would be a tremendous IT cost to everyone who keeps track of phone numbers. It would rival Y2K.
From what I've read, it sounds like the effort of reprogramming the Pentagon phone system prior to the 1990 advent of having to dial the area code for inter—area code local calls (703 to 202, etc.) in the DC area was a major undertaking. I can only shudder at the thought of how much more work changing the entire phone number structure would involve.
Quote from: Hobart on September 08, 2023, 09:51:05 AM
Quote from: geek11111 on September 03, 2023, 12:59:56 AM
Multi area code for one single city is pretty uncommon outside NANP. Outside NANP, telephone numbers will be adding one digit, instead of crazily introducing new area codes.
Multi area code makes people need to dial and say three more digits EVERY TIME you need to dial or say a number.
Historically, the people administering the NANP would split area codes based on region; for example; Chicago's 312 area code was split off into 708 and 312, and then further into 773. This would continue to enable 7 digit dialing in the area code in most places.
What happened afterwards is that in the nineties, these splits became extremely common because of fax machines and modems and stuff, and people started to have to change their phone numbers every few years at the will of the system, to much cost and inconvenience, so they just put overlays on so everyone could keep the same number.
Then, every jurisdiction using the 988 office code (3 digits after area code) had to either reassign those numbers or adopt ten digit dialing because that number became a code for the suicide hotline, sometime shortly before 2020.
As someone whose parents were relatively late adopters of cell phones, and who witnessed the transition of the 708 area code from 7 to 11 digit dialing (need a 1 in front in 708), I really don't mind dialing the four extra digits if it means my phone number doesn't have to change every five years, or if someone can quickly access the suicide hotline when they really need to. Sure, the NANP is problematic, but this solution is the least problematic. A better numbering system would have been the best solution, but it's a little bit too late for that.
This is why the long distance call prefix 1 should be changed to 0, to release the 1XX area code and local phone numbers starting with 1 to be special service number, like 988.
Quote from: geek11111 on September 08, 2023, 02:18:04 PMThis is why the long distance call prefix 1 should be changed to 0, to release the 1XX area code and local phone numbers starting with 1 to be special service number, like 988.
Not technically feasible. Plus, +1 is the country identifier for both the United States and Canada.
I haven't tried it in many years, but does dialing zero still get you the operator? If so, that's a reason geeknumber's latest suggestion wouldn't work. The reason I don't know is because obviously in the USA you dial 011 as the prefix for an international call, so it's not quite as simple as it was in the old days.
Quote from: 1995hoo on September 08, 2023, 02:23:00 PM
I haven't tried it in many years, but does dialing zero still get you the operator? If so, that's a reason geeknumber's latest suggestion wouldn't work. The reason I don't know is because obviously in the USA you dial 011 as the prefix for an international call, so it's not quite as simple as it was in the old days.
Not on AT&T, with whom 0 and 411 no longer work on digital telephones as of January 2023. I don't know about other carriers. However, before that time, it was possible to dial 0 for the operator and to dial 011 as a prefix for international calls. I have distinct memories of doing both in the 1990s.
Quote from: geek11111 on September 03, 2023, 12:59:56 AM
Multi area code for one single city is pretty uncommon outside NANP. Outside NANP, telephone numbers will be adding one digit, instead of crazily introducing new area codes.
Multi area code makes people need to dial and say three more digits EVERY TIME you need to dial or say a number.
Common in places like LA and New York to have a single city get multiple area codes. Also there are overlays like in San Francisco with 415 and 628 or Sacramento for 278 and 916.
Not just major cities either–Oklahoma City has 405 and 572. (I have yet to encounter a 572 number in the wild, however.)
Before new area codes were added in the 1990s, this would've been a great idea, but now I don't see any need for it.
How would the 8-digit numbers have been set up anyway? XXX-XXXX, XXXX-XXXX or some other variant?
Quote from: Henry on September 09, 2023, 12:09:36 AM
Before new area codes were added in the 1990s, this would've been a great idea, but now I don't see any need for it.
How would the 8-digit numbers have been set up anyway? XXX-XXXX, XXXX-XXXX or some other variant?
FWIW, my UK phone number is in the format: +44 (0)28 95xx xxxx
Meanwhile, the French format their numbers as: 0x xx xx xx xx (or +33 x xx xx xx xx)
Quote from: MikeTheActuary on September 09, 2023, 12:24:52 AM
Quote from: Henry on September 09, 2023, 12:09:36 AM
Before new area codes were added in the 1990s, this would've been a great idea, but now I don't see any need for it.
How would the 8-digit numbers have been set up anyway? XXX-XXXX, XXXX-XXXX or some other variant?
FWIW, my UK phone number is in the format: +44 (0)28 95xx xxxx
Meanwhile, the French format their numbers as: 0x xx xx xx xx (or +33 x xx xx xx xx)
I wonder if this has anything to do with language and regional reading of numbers.
In US "1234" goes as "one-two-three-four", so dashes and spaces don't matter that much. If there is a tradition of saying "twelve-thirty four" or "one hundred twenty three - four" that may affect notation a lot.
I don't think there is one answer to the issue kalvado raises because I don't think there is any one "standard" or "normal" practice in the US.
I usually pronounce each number individually, but that's hardly universal. For example, I frequently hear four-digit addresses read as two or three numbers–a lot of people will say 6625, for example, as "sixty-six twenty-five." If the address contains a zero, those people will read that as an "O"–"sixty-six-oh-nine." I would expect those people to say "1234" as "twelve thirty-four" in referring to an address. For ZIP Codes, more often I hear people pronounce the digits individually, but not always–parts of downtown DC have a 20005 ZIP Code and some people pronounce that (wrongly) as "two thousand five." (It's wrong because if it were a five-digit number it would be twenty thousand five.) I remember when I was a little kid my mom said our ZIP Code as "two two oh oh three" instead of "two two zero zero three."
I've heard some people say area codes as two numbers–410 in Maryland as "four ten" is annoyingly common, 321 in Florida as "three twenty-one" less so.
Phone numbers seem to vary. My first year of college I had the ideal roadgeek phone number for someone living in Charlottesville where the two main highways are US-29 and I-64–my phone number ended in "2964." I said those four digits as "two nine six four." My roommate always said it as "twenty-nine sixty-four." I've heard other people combine numbers that way and if they're giving me a number, I always repeat it back using single digits to make sure I got it right in case I mishear, say, "fifty" as "fifteen" (or vice versa).
I have two zeros in my phone number. Yet, I'll say "Zero" for thr first, then "Oh" for the 2nd. Don't know why I do that. Always have.
From a message I posted a few years ago:
---
In my long-ago days at the telephone company, we were taught to always say each number individually and distinctly, whether it be street addresses or telephone numbers.
555-2097 is pronounced in telco-speak as "five, five, five (pause) two, zero (NEVER the letter "O"), nine-un, (two syllables to make it distinct from five), seven." I guess it stuck, since I still do that. My five-digit house number has two consecutive zeros in the middle of it, and I always say "zero zero" and never "oh oh."
(The reason for never using "O" to mean "zero" is because the letter O on phone dials appears on the #6 button (or dial pull, if you're that old), and believe it or not that confused some folks.)
I don't alter any digit pronunciations, but I do say "zero" rather than "oh".
However, I have had one person mishear my birthday (which I have to give often at the pharmacy) as the 27th instead of the 22nd, which I could have avoided by saying "twenty-two".
Quote from: catch22 on September 10, 2023, 08:30:02 AM
From a message I posted a few years ago:
---
In my long-ago days at the telephone company, we were taught to always say each number individually and distinctly, whether it be street addresses or telephone numbers.
555-2097 is pronounced in telco-speak as "five, five, five (pause) two, zero (NEVER the letter "O"), nine-un, (two syllables to make it distinct from five), seven." I guess it stuck, since I still do that. My five-digit house number has two consecutive zeros in the middle of it, and I always say "zero zero" and never "oh oh."
(The reason for never using "O" to mean "zero" is because the letter O on phone dials appears on the #6 button (or dial pull, if you're that old), and believe it or not that confused some folks.)
"Niner" is also a standard in NATO phonetic alphabet
___
was there any allowance for "ten", "eleven", and "twelve"? Those seem to be very distinct from everything else, no room for confusion.
Quote from: kalvado on September 10, 2023, 09:53:38 AM
Quote from: catch22 on September 10, 2023, 08:30:02 AM
From a message I posted a few years ago:
---
In my long-ago days at the telephone company, we were taught to always say each number individually and distinctly, whether it be street addresses or telephone numbers.
555-2097 is pronounced in telco-speak as "five, five, five (pause) two, zero (NEVER the letter "O"), nine-un, (two syllables to make it distinct from five), seven." I guess it stuck, since I still do that. My five-digit house number has two consecutive zeros in the middle of it, and I always say "zero zero" and never "oh oh."
(The reason for never using "O" to mean "zero" is because the letter O on phone dials appears on the #6 button (or dial pull, if you're that old), and believe it or not that confused some folks.)
"Niner" is also a standard in NATO phonetic alphabet
___
was there any allowance for "ten", "eleven", and "twelve"? Those seem to be very distinct from everything else, no room for confusion.
Since there are no 10, 11, nor 12 buttons, I would not think so.
Quote from: Big John on September 10, 2023, 10:10:10 AM
Quote from: kalvado on September 10, 2023, 09:53:38 AM
Quote from: catch22 on September 10, 2023, 08:30:02 AM
From a message I posted a few years ago:
---
In my long-ago days at the telephone company, we were taught to always say each number individually and distinctly, whether it be street addresses or telephone numbers.
555-2097 is pronounced in telco-speak as "five, five, five (pause) two, zero (NEVER the letter "O"), nine-un, (two syllables to make it distinct from five), seven." I guess it stuck, since I still do that. My five-digit house number has two consecutive zeros in the middle of it, and I always say "zero zero" and never "oh oh."
(The reason for never using "O" to mean "zero" is because the letter O on phone dials appears on the #6 button (or dial pull, if you're that old), and believe it or not that confused some folks.)
"Niner" is also a standard in NATO phonetic alphabet
___
was there any allowance for "ten", "eleven", and "twelve"? Those seem to be very distinct from everything else, no room for confusion.
Since there are no 10, 11, nor 12 buttons, I would not think so.
But there are definitely 10s and 12s in street addresses
Quote from: kalvado on September 10, 2023, 10:11:37 AM
Quote from: Big John on September 10, 2023, 10:10:10 AM
Quote from: kalvado on September 10, 2023, 09:53:38 AM
Quote from: catch22 on September 10, 2023, 08:30:02 AM
From a message I posted a few years ago:
---
In my long-ago days at the telephone company, we were taught to always say each number individually and distinctly, whether it be street addresses or telephone numbers.
555-2097 is pronounced in telco-speak as "five, five, five (pause) two, zero (NEVER the letter "O"), nine-un, (two syllables to make it distinct from five), seven." I guess it stuck, since I still do that. My five-digit house number has two consecutive zeros in the middle of it, and I always say "zero zero" and never "oh oh."
(The reason for never using "O" to mean "zero" is because the letter O on phone dials appears on the #6 button (or dial pull, if you're that old), and believe it or not that confused some folks.)
"Niner" is also a standard in NATO phonetic alphabet
___
was there any allowance for "ten", "eleven", and "twelve"? Those seem to be very distinct from everything else, no room for confusion.
Since there are no 10, 11, nor 12 buttons, I would not think so.
But there are definitely 10s and 12s in street addresses
Which would be pronounced "one-zero" and "one-two" respectively.
That said, my phone number has 2 zeros, one at the end of the 3 numbers and one at the end of the 4 numbers. I pronounce my phone number as "five eighty /pause/ sixty-two sixty" (numbers changed to protect the innocent).
Regarding phone numbers, I recall when 911 rolled out as the standard emergency number there was a concerted effort to promote it as three digits instead of as "nine-eleven" because the authorities didn't want little kids getting confused by the lack of an "11" on the dial (or an "11" button).
Quote from: 1995hoo on September 09, 2023, 09:14:31 AM
I remember when I was a little kid my mom said our ZIP Code as "two two oh oh three" instead of "two two zero zero three."
I'd probably say that as "two two double-oh three".
Quote from: jeffandnicole on September 09, 2023, 12:21:08 PM
I have two zeros in my phone number. Yet, I'll say "Zero" for thr first, then "Oh" for the 2nd. Don't know why I do that. Always have.
I used to work in a dispatch office where field techs would read serial numbers over the phone. They were supposed to use a spelling alphabet for the letters in those serial numbers, and we preferred the NATO phonetic alphabet. But a lot of techs used common police ones instead (David instead of Delta, etc). And then some of them just made up whatever spelling alphabet seemed right to them at the time. Two instances that stick out in my memory were when (on more than one occasion) someone tried to come up with something for Z on the spot, and the first word they thought of was ZERO. Fail. But another time was when a tech had a serial number with a double Y, and he read it over the phone as "YANKEE YELLOW". That one took me about two seconds to parse, and by then I couldn't remember the next few digits after it.
Quote from: GaryV on September 10, 2023, 12:51:38 PM
Quote from: kalvado on September 10, 2023, 10:11:37 AM
But there are definitely 10s and 12s in street addresses
Which would be pronounced "one-zero" and "one-two" respectively.
That said, my phone number has 2 zeros, one at the end of the 3 numbers and one at the end of the 4 numbers. I pronounce my phone number as "five eighty /pause/ sixty-two sixty" (numbers changed to protect the innocent).
Five-digit house numbers are what interest me along these lines. Let's take an imaginary street address of 14621 N. Birch St.
In a couple of places I've lived, street addresses were based on a numbered street grid. So what makes most sense to me with that address is to think of it as "house number 21 north of the 146-hundred line". So I try to say "one forty-six twenty-one". In my mind it's "one forty-six / twenty-one".
But plenty of people would say "fourteen six twenty-one" instead. This also makes sense to me if I'm not interpolating a numbered street grid into the number. In a sense, they're treating the "fourteen" part as a throwaway, which leaves the more normal-sounding "six twenty-one" part as useful information. That is to say, if you're anywhere near that part of Birch Street, all houses numbers are going to begin with 14 anyway, and all you really care about is the 6 (getting close) and the 21 (found the right house).
My wife's phone number has three consecutive x0 pairs. To protect the innocent, let's pretend her number is 730-3090. I used to say it out loud to people as "seven thirty thirty ninety". But at least 50% of the time that would throw the person totally off. So now I just say "seven three oh ... three oh nine oh" instead. Much better success rate.
My own phone number, like yours, has two zeroes–one at the end of the string of three and one at the end of the string of four. And I now say each digit individually, just as with my wife's.
I have a lot of Latino customers that I interface with on a regular basis. They give their phone numbers in twin digits, for example 3314 is always "thirty-three fourteen" and never "three three one four."
Quote from: Road Hog on September 10, 2023, 08:38:37 PM
I have a lot of Latino customers that I interface with on a regular basis. They give their phone numbers in twin digits, for example 3314 is always "thirty-three fourteen" and never "three three one four."
Yes: in Mexico, phone numbers have long been written and spoken as groups of two digits. Even now that most area codes are three digits, it's still not unheard-of to see billboards with phone numbers written as five groups of two.
Quote from: geek11111 on September 03, 2023, 12:59:56 AM
Multi area code for one single city is pretty uncommon outside NANP. Outside NANP, telephone numbers will be adding one digit, instead of crazily introducing new area codes.
Multi area code makes people need to dial and say three more digits EVERY TIME you need to dial or say a number.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Area_codes_707_and_369
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Area_codes_415_and_628
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Area_codes_916_and_279
Also there's another thing multiple area codes via overlay is a recent thing to account newer phones. I remember area codes used to be split and it affects what neighborhoods you were in at the time.
It's not "recent", Atlanta has had overlay since the late 90s with 678, and arguably should have just adopted it earlier, in the mid 90s, with 770 (instead of making a 404/770 split roughly at I-285, which remains the only geographic area split in the whole Atlanta area code region (404, 770, 678, etc)
Quote from: ran4sh on September 13, 2023, 12:01:16 PM
It's not "recent", Atlanta has had overlay since the late 90s with 678, and arguably should have just adopted it earlier, in the mid 90s, with 770 (instead of making a 404/770 split roughly at I-285, which remains the only geographic area split in the whole Atlanta area code region (404, 770, 678, etc)
678 is the best time to upgrade to 8-digit under 404.
Quote from: ran4sh on September 13, 2023, 12:01:16 PM
It's not "recent", Atlanta has had overlay since the late 90s with 678, and arguably should have just adopted it earlier, in the mid 90s, with 770 (instead of making a 404/770 split roughly at I-285, which remains the only geographic area split in the whole Atlanta area code region (404, 770, 678, etc)
The first one in the NANP was 917, which was laid over New York City's 212 and 718 areas in February 1992.
Quote from: kphoger on September 13, 2023, 12:48:08 PM
Quote from: ran4sh on September 13, 2023, 12:01:16 PM
It's not "recent", Atlanta has had overlay since the late 90s with 678, and arguably should have just adopted it earlier, in the mid 90s, with 770 (instead of making a 404/770 split roughly at I-285, which remains the only geographic area split in the whole Atlanta area code region (404, 770, 678, etc)
The first one in the NANP was 917, which was laid over New York City's 212 and 718 areas in February 1992.
I suppose I could try to look this up, but your comment makes me wonder whether any other overlay area codes cover multiple other area codes. That is, most overlay codes of which I'm aware are coterminous with another code (571 matches 703's territory, for example).
Quote from: 1995hoo on September 13, 2023, 12:51:04 PM
I suppose I could try to look this up, but your comment makes me wonder whether any other overlay area codes cover multiple other area codes.
Someone, correct me if I'm wrong about any of these or missed any:
236
368
470
587
672
678
778
825
872
878
917
Quote from: bing101 on September 13, 2023, 10:51:06 AM
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Area_codes_707_and_369
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Area_codes_415_and_628
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Area_codes_916_and_279
As an aside, enjoy the Wikipedia area code articles while you can, since area codes are not notable (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Telecommunications/Area_codes_RfC).
Quote from: Scott5114 on September 13, 2023, 01:23:50 PM
Quote from: bing101 on September 13, 2023, 10:51:06 AM
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Area_codes_707_and_369
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Area_codes_415_and_628
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Area_codes_916_and_279
As an aside, enjoy the Wikipedia area code articles while you can, since area codes are not notable (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Telecommunications/Area_codes_RfC).
Thank you for providing that link, and therewith some welcome entertainment.
(https://i.imgur.com/qHqK9xH.png)
Huh. I didn't know notability was such an issue - part of the reason I like Wikipedia is finding well-researched, well-written articles on relatively small/obscure topics.
For example, I saw a TikTok today with a clip from a TV show (relatively popular, but ended nine years ago), and I couldn't remember the season arc. Within moments, I have separate articles for the show itself, the season, the episode itself, and the principal characters for the show. I get my question answered, remind myself of a couple of other things, read a couple of interesting factoids I didn't know about. You could argue that is what fan Wikis should be (and are) for, but I know that over 90% of the time if I Google "[topic of interest] wiki" I'm going to get what I'm looking for.
Back to area codes, I'm of the mind that we could have (and should have) realized what an explosion of numbers we'd need for mobile and data and established overlays on all area codes right away. Land lines get the old codes; mobile (and non-voice) lines get the new codes.
Quote from: DTComposer on September 13, 2023, 05:40:55 PM
I'm of the mind that we could have (and should have) realized what an explosion of numbers we'd need for mobile and data and established overlays on all area codes right away.
All of them? Even 906? 307? 802?
Quote from: DTComposer on September 13, 2023, 05:40:55 PM
Back to area codes, I'm of the mind that we could have (and should have) realized what an explosion of numbers we'd need for mobile and data and established overlays on all area codes right away. Land lines get the old codes; mobile (and non-voice) lines get the new codes.
Predict what will happen 20 years from now. Be accurate and precise.
Quote from: DTComposer on September 13, 2023, 05:40:55 PM
Land lines get the old codes; mobile (and non-voice) lines get the new codes.
That was the original intention when cellphones first became available. NYC was going to be the first test of such a system, where cellphones were to use Area Code 917, while landlines stayed with 212 and 718. The FCC shut that down almost immediately. All services use area codes equally, and that's not likely to change now.
Quote from: KeithE4Phx on September 13, 2023, 06:29:17 PM
Quote from: DTComposer on September 13, 2023, 05:40:55 PM
Land lines get the old codes; mobile (and non-voice) lines get the new codes.
That was the original intention when cellphones first became available. NYC was going to be the first test of such a system, where cellphones were to use Area Code 917, while landlines stayed with 212 and 718. The FCC shut that down almost immediately. All services use area codes equally, and that's not likely to change now.
And 630 for cell phones around Chicago. 630 then became an area code for sururban Chicago.
Quote from: Big John on September 13, 2023, 06:47:11 PM
Quote from: KeithE4Phx on September 13, 2023, 06:29:17 PM
Quote from: DTComposer on September 13, 2023, 05:40:55 PM
Land lines get the old codes; mobile (and non-voice) lines get the new codes.
That was the original intention when cellphones first became available. NYC was going to be the first test of such a system, where cellphones were to use Area Code 917, while landlines stayed with 212 and 718. The FCC shut that down almost immediately. All services use area codes equally, and that's not likely to change now.
And 630 for cell phones around Chicago. 630 then became an area code for sururban Chicago.
I didn't know that about the 630 area code, and I used to have a 630 cell phone number. However, I didn't get it until 2000 and was not living in the area when 630 launched. Do you have an article you could link to about that?
^^ The overlay proposal was never approved, then it got assigned as a regular area code. I have been looking for a link with no avail.
Quote from: jeffandnicole on September 13, 2023, 06:22:57 PM
Quote from: DTComposer on September 13, 2023, 05:40:55 PM
Back to area codes, I'm of the mind that we could have (and should have) realized what an explosion of numbers we'd need for mobile and data and established overlays on all area codes right away. Land lines get the old codes; mobile (and non-voice) lines get the new codes.
Predict what will happen 20 years from now. Be accurate and precise.
Fair point, but in 1991, 3% of the US population had a cell phone. By 1995 (the first year an area code without 0 or 1 as the middle digit was in use) it was 12% and by 1998 it was 25%. Did industry people at the time really think that was going to level off?
I admit it seems obvious in hindsight, but my experience in the '90s saw that explosion in cell phone use happening all around me.
Quote from: DTComposer on September 13, 2023, 08:09:35 PM
Quote from: jeffandnicole on September 13, 2023, 06:22:57 PM
Quote from: DTComposer on September 13, 2023, 05:40:55 PM
Back to area codes, I'm of the mind that we could have (and should have) realized what an explosion of numbers we'd need for mobile and data and established overlays on all area codes right away. Land lines get the old codes; mobile (and non-voice) lines get the new codes.
Predict what will happen 20 years from now. Be accurate and precise.
Fair point, but in 1991, 3% of the US population had a cell phone. By 1995 (the first year an area code without 0 or 1 as the middle digit was in use) it was 12% and by 1998 it was 25%. Did industry people at the time really think that was going to level off?
I admit it seems obvious in hindsight, but my experience in the '90s saw that explosion in cell phone use happening all around me.
And, yeah, I know I was being a bit of a smartass there. But it really is surprising how cell phone usage exploded. Growing up, most houses had one phone number. Maybe a second for their teenagers. I don't think anyone expected each parent to have a number, each teen to have a number, and a fair number of children getting a phone while still in their elementary school years. So for many families, that's twice to quadruple the numbers that families had back in the 1990's and prior. And then many people still have a home number, and working people may have both a work landline number and a work cell number.
And how cell phones advanced probably didn't cross most people's minds. We were mainly using computers for our computing needs, and cameras for our photography needs. Even the internet was in its infancy at that time. I don't think anyone (ok, maybe a few) saw cell phones becoming the prime tool for all 3.
But here's the other thing that probably caught people by surprise - with all these phones and phone numbers, actual calls didn't go up all that much, and are currently trending down. And land lines have been decreasing for many years. So if area code was dedicated to landlines and area codes were dedicated to cell phones, we would probably be running out of phone numbers for those dedicated area codes.
It's a funny world we live in. What people predicted to occur often hasn't, and what people never had a clue about now rules our everyday lives.
Quote from: jeffandnicole on September 13, 2023, 09:33:48 PMAnd, yeah, I know I was being a bit of a smartass there. But it really is surprising how cell phone usage exploded. Growing up, most houses had one phone number. Maybe a second for their teenagers. I don't think anyone expected each parent to have a number, each teen to have a number, and a fair number of children getting a phone while still in their elementary school years. So for many families, that's twice to quadruple the numbers that families had back in the 1990's and prior. And then many people still have a home number, and working people may have both a work landline number and a work cell number.
In some cases, three lines... my parents had one, I had one for voice and one for data because it was the 90s and we had dial-up connections. I can assure you that the payment for my two lines came out of my wallet including installation.
Quote from: jeffandnicole on September 13, 2023, 09:33:48 PMAnd how cell phones advanced probably didn't cross most people's minds. We were mainly using computers for our computing needs, and cameras for our photography needs. Even the internet was in its infancy at that time. I don't think anyone (ok, maybe a few) saw cell phones becoming the prime tool for all 3.
That's because cell phones were expensive to use and charged by the minute. When I got my first mobile phone, the Airtouch plan I had provided me 50 minutes of peak usage (7 AM-8 PM local time), and about 200 minutes of non-peak usage (8 PM-7 AM local time, 24 hours on the weekend) per month. It didn't even have SMS calling or Bluetooth. I remember a family friend warning me that "you'll get that first phone bill, and you will put that phone in a drawer for quite a while." Unfortunately, I had my eyes wide open and guarded those minutes with a vengeance, so no surprise bill ever came. A few years later, when the plans were more generous with the minutes, I ditched the landline for voice and went strictly mobile, although I kept the data line. That line was soon converted to a ADSL line.
(I remember the plan details clearly, but not the exact times. When I did a Google search for Airtouch advertising, it brought up ads for old Airtouch phones and CPAP masks.)
Quote from: jeffandnicole on September 13, 2023, 09:33:48 PMBut here's the other thing that probably caught people by surprise - with all these phones and phone numbers, actual calls didn't go up all that much, and are currently trending down. And land lines have been decreasing for many years. So if area code was dedicated to landlines and area codes were dedicated to cell phones, we would probably be running out of phone numbers for those dedicated area codes.
As someone who is on the phone at work all day, I really don't talk much when in personal mode. Funny that.
Many countries set up a block of area codes for cellphones.
Quote from: geek11111 on September 14, 2023, 02:40:35 AM
Many countries set up a block of area codes for cellphones.
Which may also be a hindsight is always 20-20 policy as landlines are dying as a concept and countries commit to cleanup and full removal of copper phone infrastructure.
Regarding ZLoth's comment about being cautious with your minutes, don't forget the days when you were limited in where you could simply use your mobile phone versus where you would be "roaming," which incurred higher charges.
One of the reasons why mobile phones were expensive in the 90s was that it was analog (AMPS), so when you had a call, it took up an entire frequency in the 800Mhz range. The allocation of the radio spectrum is strictly controlled by the FCC or your country's regulatory authority, and they can't create more spectrum, so you manage it as best as you can. (As an example, Analog TV broadcast channels 70-83 were discontinued and the associated frequencies reallocated to mobile phone use.) When mobile phones went digital, they utilized either CDMA, TDMA, or GSM on either 2G or 3G. Although each technology is different in it's implementation, for our purposes, they were a form of "time slicing" a phone call so that multiple calls can fit in a single frequency.
In terms of twisted pair copper... even if you have a POTS landline phone, that is only good up to the telco switching office. Once there, it gets converted into a digital signal. Some of the copper infrastructure is decades old and is deteriorating, and the telcos really want to obsolete it out in favor of VoIP. Some folks are pushing back because the phone line would remain on during a power outage because of the generators at the telco switching offices.
Quote from: jeffandnicole on September 13, 2023, 09:33:48 PM
And, yeah, I know I was being a bit of a smartass there. But it really is surprising how cell phone usage exploded. Growing up, most houses had one phone number. Maybe a second for their teenagers. I don't think anyone expected each parent to have a number, each teen to have a number, and a fair number of children getting a phone while still in their elementary school years. So for many families, that's twice to quadruple the numbers that families had back in the 1990's and prior. And then many people still have a home number, and working people may have both a work landline number and a work cell number.
When my family first got a cell phone, it was to keep in the car in case of an emergency when driving out of town. We therefore didn't consider it a possibility that more than one person in the family would need a cell phone at any given time, because only one vehicle would be driving out of town at any given time. The idea that each person would keep a cell phone on his or her person at all times didn't come into vogue until the early 2000s.
Quote from: ZLoth on September 14, 2023, 10:05:31 AM
In terms of twisted pair copper... even if you have a POTS landline phone, that is only good up to the telco switching office. Once there, it gets converted into a digital signal. Some of the copper infrastructure is decades old and is deteriorating, and the telcos really want to obsolete it out in favor of VoIP. Some folks are pushing back because the phone line would remain on during a power outage because of the generators at the telco switching offices.
And, even if you have VoIP phones, that doesn't necessarily mean the internet connection carrying your call isn't using RF/coax/copper to get from node to house anyway. Here in Wichita, Cox Communications finally obsolesced outdoor phone NIUs within the last few years. That is to say, some customers still didn't even have digital landline phone service until recently. I'm only familiar with certain other markets, but similar is true for Omaha and Oklahoma City.
Quote from: geek11111 on September 14, 2023, 02:40:35 AM
Many countries set up a block of area codes for cellphones.
In most of those countries, the caller pays for the air time used by the call. Making it easy to distinguish a cell number helps make it clear that there will be an added toll when you call it.
Quote from: MikeTheActuary on September 14, 2023, 11:26:20 AM
Quote from: geek11111 on September 14, 2023, 02:40:35 AM
Many countries set up a block of area codes for cellphones.
In most of those countries, the caller pays for the air time used by the call. Making it easy to distinguish a cell number helps make it clear that there will be an added toll when you call it.
Mexico handled this by having a different prefix to dial for cell phones when calling from a landline phone. It used to be 044+ the number for local landline-to-cellular calls and 045+ for long-distance landline-to-cellular calls. And, dialing in from outside the country, it required a 1+ between the country code and the phone number. This system of prefixes was done away with in 2019, in favor of 10-digit dialing across the board, but I think they had to change their pricing scheme in order to do so.
Could letters be added? The format would be AB-123-XXXX, where the AB is the area code (from AA to ZZ, using all 26 letters), 123 is central office code and XXXX is line number, which can contain both numbers and letters in all four positions. The 10 numbers and 26 letters could be arranged to 6 x 6 square on keypad.
Quote from: kalvado on September 14, 2023, 06:10:18 AM
Quote from: geek11111 on September 14, 2023, 02:40:35 AM
Many countries set up a block of area codes for cellphones.
Which may also be a hindsight is always 20-20 policy as landlines are dying as a concept and countries commit to cleanup and full removal of copper phone infrastructure.
Which is stupid bc landline 911 is a lot more reliable than cellphone 911 (especially for areas that are near jurisdictional borders).
Quote from: Poiponen13 on September 14, 2023, 12:43:24 PM
Could letters be added? The format would be AB-123-XXXX, where the AB is the area code (from AA to ZZ, using all 26 letters), 123 is central office code and XXXX is line number, which can contain both numbers and letters in all four positions. The 10 numbers and 26 letters could be arranged to 6 x 6 square on keypad.
How would it be better to make everyone, everywhere, in the whole world, but new telephones with alphanumeric keypads–than to simply add a digit to the existing phone numbers?
Quote from: Poiponen13 on September 14, 2023, 12:43:24 PM
Could letters be added? The format would be AB-123-XXXX, where the AB is the area code (from AA to ZZ, using all 26 letters), 123 is central office code and XXXX is line number, which can contain both numbers and letters in all four positions. The 10 numbers and 26 letters could be arranged to 6 x 6 square on keypad.
Good luck paying to replace all the existing equipment just to replace it with equipment that can dial letters.
Quote from: kphoger on September 14, 2023, 12:11:14 PM
Quote from: MikeTheActuary on September 14, 2023, 11:26:20 AM
Quote from: geek11111 on September 14, 2023, 02:40:35 AM
Many countries set up a block of area codes for cellphones.
In most of those countries, the caller pays for the air time used by the call. Making it easy to distinguish a cell number helps make it clear that there will be an added toll when you call it.
Mexico handled this by having a different prefix to dial for cell phones when calling from a landline phone. It used to be 044+ the number for local landline-to-cellular calls and 045+ for long-distance landline-to-cellular calls. And, dialing in from outside the country, it required a 1+ between the country code and the phone number. This system of prefixes was done away with in 2019, in favor of 10-digit dialing across the board, but I think they had to change their pricing scheme in order to do so.
Voice calls cost going to essentially zero is a big factor in defining how phone system operates anyway...
Quote from: ran4sh on September 14, 2023, 12:44:45 PM
Quote from: kalvado on September 14, 2023, 06:10:18 AM
Quote from: geek11111 on September 14, 2023, 02:40:35 AM
Many countries set up a block of area codes for cellphones.
Which may also be a hindsight is always 20-20 policy as landlines are dying as a concept and countries commit to cleanup and full removal of copper phone infrastructure.
Which is stupid bc landline 911 is a lot more reliable than cellphone 911 (especially for areas that are near jurisdictional borders).
Emergency calling, while important, doesn't define the whole situation. And ability to get location from the caller's cell phone was one of big things introduced to alleviate that - even before GPS was brought to every handset.
As for landline more reliable... There was a pretty funny (or sad) story about homeowner on state (I want to say MA-VT, but not really sure) border who called 911 for the fire in the shed - only to learn that MA firefighters he reached from the home on MA side of the lot cannot deal with the shed on VT side...
On a similar note, university dorm complex next door is divided between 3 fire districts (and since state university property is tax exempt, nobody want to take full responsibility). All landline calls from the university are recognized under single number. Even without that, tracing numbers down to buildings and portions of buildings is pretty messy...
Quote from: Poiponen13 on September 14, 2023, 12:43:24 PM
Could letters be added? The format would be AB-123-XXXX, where the AB is the area code (from AA to ZZ, using all 26 letters), 123 is central office code and XXXX is line number, which can contain both numbers and letters in all four positions. The 10 numbers and 26 letters could be arranged to 6 x 6 square on keypad.
Unless you change every telephone in the world to enable distinct letters, you won't get 26x26 letter possibilities. You'll get 8x8.
On current phones, AA is the same as AB and AC and BA and BB and BC and CA and CB and CC.
Quote from: GaryV on September 14, 2023, 01:45:52 PM
Quote from: Poiponen13 on September 14, 2023, 12:43:24 PM
Could letters be added? The format would be AB-123-XXXX, where the AB is the area code (from AA to ZZ, using all 26 letters), 123 is central office code and XXXX is line number, which can contain both numbers and letters in all four positions. The 10 numbers and 26 letters could be arranged to 6 x 6 square on keypad.
Unless you change every telephone in the world to enable distinct letters, you won't get 26x26 letter possibilities. You'll get 8x8.
On current phones, AA is the same as AB and AC and BA and BB and BC and CA and CB and CC.
And don't forget that while pretty much everyone uses Arabic numerals, Latin alphabet is far from universal.
Right, what happens when I want to call up someone in Chernihiv and their area code is ПЖ?
I would imagine we'd exhaust the Greek alphabet first before we resorted to Cyrillic, which shares some letters with both languages.
Quote from: Road Hog on September 14, 2023, 06:00:17 PM
I would imagine we'd exhaust the Greek alphabet first before we resorted to Cyrillic, which shares some letters with both languages.
So why do you think English version of Latin alphabet has to go first? Using German increases number of letters due to umlauts!
Quote from: kalvado on September 14, 2023, 06:37:16 PM
Quote from: Road Hog on September 14, 2023, 06:00:17 PM
I would imagine we'd exhaust the Greek alphabet first before we resorted to Cyrillic, which shares some letters with both languages.
So why do you think English version of Latin alphabet has to go first? Using German increases number of letters due to umlauts!
Thorn and Ash for the win!
Expansion to four-digit area codes is already provided for in the North American Numbering Plan (NANP). All existing area codes would have 9 added in between the first and second digits (notice no current area codes have 9 and the second digit). That would provide for a 10x expansion to over 6,000 area codes within the NANP.
Quote from: rlb2024 on September 14, 2023, 07:53:31 PM
Expansion to four-digit area codes is already provided for in the North American Numbering Plan (NANP). All existing area codes would have 9 added in between the first and second digits (notice no current area codes have 9 and the second digit). That would provide for a 10x expansion to over 6,000 area codes within the NANP.
The issue would remain, of course, that a lot of US-based software only has room for ten digits.
H: ( [ ] ) [ ] - [ ]
Quote from: kphoger on September 15, 2023, 09:45:17 AM
Quote from: rlb2024 on September 14, 2023, 07:53:31 PM
Expansion to four-digit area codes is already provided for in the North American Numbering Plan (NANP). All existing area codes would have 9 added in between the first and second digits (notice no current area codes have 9 and the second digit). That would provide for a 10x expansion to over 6,000 area codes within the NANP.
The issue would remain, of course, that a lot of US-based software only has room for ten digits.
H: ( [ ] ) [ ] - [ ]
Which makes such software unusable even in Mexico or EU. Of course, not a problem for domestic-only things.
SSN may be another numerical ID with the same set of issues - low capacity of the system and rigid notation.
Quote from: kalvado on September 15, 2023, 10:07:53 AM
Quote from: kphoger on September 15, 2023, 09:45:17 AM
Quote from: rlb2024 on September 14, 2023, 07:53:31 PM
Expansion to four-digit area codes is already provided for in the North American Numbering Plan (NANP). All existing area codes would have 9 added in between the first and second digits (notice no current area codes have 9 and the second digit). That would provide for a 10x expansion to over 6,000 area codes within the NANP.
The issue would remain, of course, that a lot of US-based software only has room for ten digits.
H: ( [ ] ) [ ] - [ ]
Which makes such software unusable even in Mexico or EU. Of course, not a problem for domestic-only things.
SSN may be another numerical ID with the same set of issues - low capacity of the system and rigid notation.
Bolded portion especially true. A US company who only does business with customers within a 300-mile radius has no need for software that
doesn't assume 123-456-7890 telephone number format.
Incidentally, the computer programs I use at work assume that format. You just type "5254545656" and it outpurs "525 454-5656". These are programs provided by the phone company.
Quote from: kphoger on September 15, 2023, 10:44:58 AM
Incidentally, the computer programs I use at work assume that format. You just type "5254545656" and it outpurs "525 454-5656". These are programs provided by the phone company.
What happens if you put in a phone number with other than 10 digits? It may well simply have a
if(input.length == 10) { input.insert_space(3); input.insert_dash(7); } block.
Quote from: Scott5114 on November 30, 2023, 08:03:39 AM
Quote from: kphoger on September 15, 2023, 10:44:58 AM
Incidentally, the computer programs I use at work assume that format. You just type "5254545656" and it outpurs "525 454-5656". These are programs provided by the phone company.
What happens if you put in a phone number with other than 10 digits? It may well simply have a if(input.length == 10) { input.insert_space(3); input.insert_dash(7); } block.
I commonly see just the first 10 digits shown. Annoying if 1 was used first.
My niece lived in Japan briefly and my phone defaulted to the odd international numbering. Once you violate the 10-digit convention, it's Katie bar the door.
Quote from: jeffandnicole on November 30, 2023, 08:45:36 AMI commonly see just the first 10 digits shown. Annoying if 1 was used first.
Have I been lucky, then?
When asked for my work phone number, I now give out 12 digits (+44 20 nnnn nnnn). So far, I haven't had an issue, aside from North American software frequently not attempting to format it (no spaces, parentheses, or dashes).
Of course, frequently I'm merely writing that number onto a piece of paper; I have no idea what happens when (for example) a medical receptionist attempts to enter it into their systems.
Quote from: Scott5114 on November 30, 2023, 08:03:39 AM
Quote from: kphoger on September 15, 2023, 10:44:58 AM
Incidentally, the computer programs I use at work assume that format. You just type "5254545656" and it outpurs "525 454-5656". These are programs provided by the phone company.
What happens if you put in a phone number with other than 10 digits? It may well simply have a if(input.length == 10) { input.insert_space(3); input.insert_dash(7); } block.
I believe anything past the initial 10 numbers gets ignored. Sometimes you see ads with toll-free numbers that show letters going past 10 characters (something like 1-800-GET-WINDOWS). Anything after the D is ignored.
Kinda like if you were to try and dial a phone number such as 911-5620 -- once you dial 911 everything else is ignored. (We found this out the hard way -- when our daughter was 2 she picked up the phone and started punching numbers. The first three she dialed were, you guessed it -- 911. A few minutes later the sheriff's department was at our door.)
Quote from: rlb2024 on December 07, 2023, 10:13:34 AM
Quote from: Scott5114 on November 30, 2023, 08:03:39 AM
Quote from: kphoger on September 15, 2023, 10:44:58 AM
Incidentally, the computer programs I use at work assume that format. You just type "5254545656" and it outpurs "525 454-5656". These are programs provided by the phone company.
What happens if you put in a phone number with other than 10 digits? It may well simply have a if(input.length == 10) { input.insert_space(3); input.insert_dash(7); } block.
I believe anything past the initial 10 numbers gets ignored. Sometimes you see ads with toll-free numbers that show letters going past 10 characters (something like 1-800-GET-WINDOWS). Anything after the D is ignored.
Kinda like if you were to try and dial a phone number such as 911-5620 -- once you dial 911 everything else is ignored. (We found this out the hard way -- when our daughter was 2 she picked up the phone and started punching numbers. The first three she dialed were, you guessed it -- 911. A few minutes later the sheriff's department was at our door.)
This is also why, at least prior to the rise of VOIP and mobile phones, it was important to dial "1" before dialing the area code for a long-distance call. The "1" told the system that the next three digits were an area code. If you didn't dial "1," the call would go to a local exchange with those digits if one existed. In 1999–2000, my work phone number in area code 202 began with the digits 310-, which was also the area code for Los Angeles (it covered a bigger area than it does now, of course). I got several wrong-number calls intended for people in LA when the callers forgot to dial "1" first. I remember one guy even called back and asked what area code he had just called, I guess because he was certain he had called the correct number (when I told him 202 and said Washington, DC, he realized he must have forgotten the "1").
How about this one the Phone Numbers of companies tend to have area codes of 800, 888, 877, 866, 844, 855 mainly because the operations are nationwide.
^^^^
I suppose that's indirectly the case, though it might be an oversimplification. 800-, and related "area codes," are for toll-free numbers, meaning the caller doesn't pay long-distance charges to call that number regardless of whether the caller and the recipient are located. A business operating a toll-free number wouldn't necessarily have nationwide operations—regional operations could, in many cases, be enough to justify the expense of setting one up. Most people don't pay long-distance anyway these days, so arguably the toll-free aspect of those numbers has lost its importance—consider how TV commercials always used to say, "Call toll-free 1-800-###-####," but they seldom include the "toll-free" part these days (if the person speaking mentions the phone number at all). Avoiding long-distance charges used to be a much bigger deal.
Quote from: 1995hoo on December 08, 2023, 08:50:30 AM
^^^^
I suppose that's indirectly the case, though it might be an oversimplification. 800-, and related "area codes," are for toll-free numbers, meaning the caller doesn't pay long-distance charges to call that number regardless of whether the caller and the recipient are located. A business operating a toll-free number wouldn't necessarily have nationwide operations—regional operations could, in many cases, be enough to justify the expense of setting one up. Most people don't pay long-distance anyway these days, so arguably the toll-free aspect of those numbers has lost its importance—consider how TV commercials always used to say, "Call toll-free 1-800-###-####," but they seldom include the "toll-free" part these days (if the person speaking mentions the phone number at all). Avoiding long-distance charges used to be a much bigger deal.
In the dark days before email became the prime method and saving cell minutes went out of fashion...
Desk phones at work didn't have long distance access, except for higher ups. There was a dedicated desk with a long distance phone and sign in sheet. Other things equal, it was simply easier to get things done if company had an 800 number...
Quote from: kalvado on December 08, 2023, 08:59:37 AM
Quote from: 1995hoo on December 08, 2023, 08:50:30 AM
^^^^
I suppose that's indirectly the case, though it might be an oversimplification. 800-, and related "area codes," are for toll-free numbers, meaning the caller doesn't pay long-distance charges to call that number regardless of whether the caller and the recipient are located. A business operating a toll-free number wouldn't necessarily have nationwide operations—regional operations could, in many cases, be enough to justify the expense of setting one up. Most people don't pay long-distance anyway these days, so arguably the toll-free aspect of those numbers has lost its importance—consider how TV commercials always used to say, "Call toll-free 1-800-###-####," but they seldom include the "toll-free" part these days (if the person speaking mentions the phone number at all). Avoiding long-distance charges used to be a much bigger deal.
In the dark days before email became the prime method and saving cell minutes went out of fashion...
Desk phones at work didn't have long distance access, except for higher ups. There was a dedicated desk with a long distance phone and sign in sheet. Other things equal, it was simply easier to get things done if company had an 800 number...
Then you had people who were, shall we say, less than scrupulous and would use their employers' phones for their personal long-distance calls. My father worked for the US government and said that he knew of people who brought their families into the government office on the weekend to make long-distance calls to relatives. He never did anything of that sort because his particular job was such that he would have gotten into considerable hot water for it.
Quote from: rlb2024 on December 07, 2023, 10:13:34 AM
Kinda like if you were to try and dial a phone number such as 911-5620 -- once you dial 911 everything else is ignored. (We found this out the hard way -- when our daughter was 2 she picked up the phone and started punching numbers. The first three she dialed were, you guessed it -- 911. A few minutes later the sheriff's department was at our door.)
Same thing happened with my son when he was about 2 or 3.
In my case, the sheriff's department came to our door with guns drawn. Apparently when our 911 center gets an incoming call followed by a hangup, the assumption is that the phone call was quietly made by someone who is in trouble, to get help. When I answered the door, the deputies asked several times "is everything OK"? (also part of their training, I assumed) Only after we had convinced them what happened did they back down with the questions and the guns.
Quote from: 1995hoo on December 08, 2023, 08:50:30 AM
^^^^
I suppose that's indirectly the case, though it might be an oversimplification. 800-, and related "area codes," are for toll-free numbers, meaning the caller doesn't pay long-distance charges to call that number regardless of whether the caller and the recipient are located. A business operating a toll-free number wouldn't necessarily have nationwide operations—regional operations could, in many cases, be enough to justify the expense of setting one up. Most people don't pay long-distance anyway these days, so arguably the toll-free aspect of those numbers has lost its importance—consider how TV commercials always used to say, "Call toll-free 1-800-###-####," but they seldom include the "toll-free" part these days (if the person speaking mentions the phone number at all). Avoiding long-distance charges used to be a much bigger deal.
For at least a couple of decades now, outgoing calls from my cell phones to any other numbers in the USA have been considered to be 'local' to me. I seriously doubt that anyone born after the mid-late 1980s even has any concept of what the differences were between 'local' and 'long distance' calls.
Mike
Quote from: mgk920 on December 08, 2023, 02:30:29 PM
Quote from: 1995hoo on December 08, 2023, 08:50:30 AM
^^^^
I suppose that's indirectly the case, though it might be an oversimplification. 800-, and related "area codes," are for toll-free numbers, meaning the caller doesn't pay long-distance charges to call that number regardless of whether the caller and the recipient are located. A business operating a toll-free number wouldn't necessarily have nationwide operations—regional operations could, in many cases, be enough to justify the expense of setting one up. Most people don't pay long-distance anyway these days, so arguably the toll-free aspect of those numbers has lost its importance—consider how TV commercials always used to say, "Call toll-free 1-800-###-####," but they seldom include the "toll-free" part these days (if the person speaking mentions the phone number at all). Avoiding long-distance charges used to be a much bigger deal.
For at least a couple of decades now, outgoing calls from my cell phones to any other numbers in the USA have been considered to be 'local' to me. I seriously doubt that anyone born after the mid-late 1980s even has any concept of what the differences were between 'local' and 'long distance' calls.
Mike
In the old days, the call went from local switch to regional switch and back again, and therefore the tracing of the call was clearly known. (the "1" prefix got you to the "long distance" switches)
Now, not so much, with a lot of cell phone signals going through communications satellites.
Quote from: mgk920 on December 08, 2023, 02:30:29 PM
Quote from: 1995hoo on December 08, 2023, 08:50:30 AM
^^^^
I suppose that's indirectly the case, though it might be an oversimplification. 800-, and related "area codes," are for toll-free numbers, meaning the caller doesn't pay long-distance charges to call that number regardless of whether the caller and the recipient are located. A business operating a toll-free number wouldn't necessarily have nationwide operations—regional operations could, in many cases, be enough to justify the expense of setting one up. Most people don't pay long-distance anyway these days, so arguably the toll-free aspect of those numbers has lost its importance—consider how TV commercials always used to say, "Call toll-free 1-800-###-####," but they seldom include the "toll-free" part these days (if the person speaking mentions the phone number at all). Avoiding long-distance charges used to be a much bigger deal.
For at least a couple of decades now, outgoing calls from my cell phones to any other numbers in the USA have been considered to be 'local' to me. I seriously doubt that anyone born after the mid-late 1980s even has any concept of what the differences were between 'local' and 'long distance' calls.
Probably true, but that doesn't change the validity of the point I was making. There's a reason why we have 800- numbers, and I suppose you could validly consider 888-, 877-, etc. to be a form of an "area code split" in that they added those when they needed more toll-free numbers than the existing 800- "area code" could accommodate.
Quote from: 1995hoo on December 08, 2023, 03:29:23 PM
Quote from: mgk920 on December 08, 2023, 02:30:29 PM
Quote from: 1995hoo on December 08, 2023, 08:50:30 AM
^^^^
I suppose that's indirectly the case, though it might be an oversimplification. 800-, and related "area codes," are for toll-free numbers, meaning the caller doesn't pay long-distance charges to call that number regardless of whether the caller and the recipient are located. A business operating a toll-free number wouldn't necessarily have nationwide operations—regional operations could, in many cases, be enough to justify the expense of setting one up. Most people don't pay long-distance anyway these days, so arguably the toll-free aspect of those numbers has lost its importance—consider how TV commercials always used to say, "Call toll-free 1-800-###-####," but they seldom include the "toll-free" part these days (if the person speaking mentions the phone number at all). Avoiding long-distance charges used to be a much bigger deal.
For at least a couple of decades now, outgoing calls from my cell phones to any other numbers in the USA have been considered to be 'local' to me. I seriously doubt that anyone born after the mid-late 1980s even has any concept of what the differences were between 'local' and 'long distance' calls.
Probably true, but that doesn't change the validity of the point I was making. There's a reason why we have 800- numbers, and I suppose you could validly consider 888-, 877-, etc. to be a form of an "area code split" in that they added those when they needed more toll-free numbers than the existing 800- "area code" could accommodate.
I was around the industry when the 888,877,866 etc. additions were made to the toll-free network (late '90s).
Wasn't in the actual discussion room, but I heard through the grapevine this change was done very quickly (relative to other such changes) because the available 800 numbers were disappearing fast enough that the need was becoming urgent, if not immediate.
They could have upgrading the former 800-234-5678 to 800-0234-5678
Or, at LEAST, allow 000 to 199 as the middle three digits (N11 are allowed in toll frees number's middle digits)
Quote from: geek11111 on December 08, 2023, 07:35:43 PM
They could have upgrading the former 800-234-5678 to 800-0234-5678
Or, at LEAST, allow 000 to 199 as the middle three digits (N11 are allowed in toll frees number's middle digits)
And what is the advantage of that vs adding 888 and 877 toll free codes?
You literally only need to memorize 8 digits instead of 10, and makes it easier to be identified as toll free.
Many people are already accustommed to 888 877 866, but 855/44/33/22 looks a hell like a regular area code.
^^ A regular area code may not end in double digits.
Quote from: geek11111 on December 09, 2023, 12:58:49 AM
You literally only need to memorize 8 digits instead of 10, and makes it easier to be identified as toll free.
Many people are already accustommed to 888 877 866, but 855/44/33/22 looks a hell like a regular area code.
Memorize 800 number? I really never remembered more than 4 digits of any 800 number. and even that for a few seconds while dialing.
Quote from: tmoore952 on December 08, 2023, 02:10:16 PM
In my case, the sheriff's department came to our door with guns drawn. Apparently when our 911 center gets an incoming call followed by a hangup, the assumption is that the phone call was quietly made by someone who is in trouble, to get help. When I answered the door, the deputies asked several times "is everything OK"? (also part of their training, I assumed) Only after we had convinced them what happened did they back down with the questions and the guns.
With the ease of inadvertently triggering the "emergency call" function on cell phones these days, the SOP has changed somewhat. I accidentally did this once when I was high and almost dropped my phone, and somehow as I was fumbling to catch it, it did an emergency call. I quickly hit the hang up button, trying to cancel the call before it rang, but it still went through. Instead, dispatch sent me a text message asking something along the lines of "Is everything OK?". To which I replied "Sorry, accidental dial." They sent back "NO PROBLEM" (caps as in original) and that was that.
Quote from: kalvado on December 09, 2023, 04:27:09 AM
Quote from: geek11111 on December 09, 2023, 12:58:49 AM
You literally only need to memorize 8 digits instead of 10, and makes it easier to be identified as toll free.
Many people are already accustommed to 888 877 866, but 855/44/33/22 looks a hell like a regular area code.
Memorize 800 number? I really never remembered more than 4 digits of any 800 number. and even that for a few seconds while dialing.
Everyone (of a certain age) Sing: "One eight hundred five two eight, one two three four, Best Western".
Quote from: GaryV on December 09, 2023, 07:37:55 AM
Quote from: kalvado on December 09, 2023, 04:27:09 AM
Quote from: geek11111 on December 09, 2023, 12:58:49 AM
You literally only need to memorize 8 digits instead of 10, and makes it easier to be identified as toll free.
Many people are already accustommed to 888 877 866, but 855/44/33/22 looks a hell like a regular area code.
Memorize 800 number? I really never remembered more than 4 digits of any 800 number. and even that for a few seconds while dialing.
Everyone (of a certain age) Sing: "One eight hundred five two eight, one two three four, Best Western".
And how often did you actually call that number?
Quote from: GaryV on December 09, 2023, 07:37:55 AM
Quote from: kalvado on December 09, 2023, 04:27:09 AM
Quote from: geek11111 on December 09, 2023, 12:58:49 AM
You literally only need to memorize 8 digits instead of 10, and makes it easier to be identified as toll free.
Many people are already accustommed to 888 877 866, but 855/44/33/22 looks a hell like a regular area code.
Memorize 800 number? I really never remembered more than 4 digits of any 800 number. and even that for a few seconds while dialing.
Everyone (of a certain age) Sing: "One eight hundred five two eight, one two three four, Best Western".
I have the urge to post the jingle of a certain ad about donating your car to charity. But I won't do that on the off chance someone knows where I live because I don't want a mob showing up with torches and pitchforks.
Quote from: GaryV on December 09, 2023, 07:37:55 AM
Quote from: kalvado on December 09, 2023, 04:27:09 AM
Quote from: geek11111 on December 09, 2023, 12:58:49 AM
You literally only need to memorize 8 digits instead of 10, and makes it easier to be identified as toll free.
Many people are already accustommed to 888 877 866, but 855/44/33/22 looks a hell like a regular area code.
Memorize 800 number? I really never remembered more than 4 digits of any 800 number. and even that for a few seconds while dialing.
Everyone (of a certain age) Sing: "One eight hundred five two eight, one two three four, Best Western".
I don't remember that (and I suspect I'm old enough to).
The one I remember is (sung) "eight oh oh, three two five, three five three five " (from Sheraton commercials late 70s and into 80s)
My sister and I used to sing that and intentionally replace the last number with a four (I have no idea if ....3534 was a valid number).
Quote from: Scott5114 on December 09, 2023, 04:38:46 AM
Quote from: tmoore952 on December 08, 2023, 02:10:16 PM
In my case, the sheriff's department came to our door with guns drawn. Apparently when our 911 center gets an incoming call followed by a hangup, the assumption is that the phone call was quietly made by someone who is in trouble, to get help. When I answered the door, the deputies asked several times "is everything OK"? (also part of their training, I assumed) Only after we had convinced them what happened did they back down with the questions and the guns.
With the ease of inadvertently triggering the "emergency call" function on cell phones these days, the SOP has changed somewhat. I accidentally did this once when I was high and almost dropped my phone, and somehow as I was fumbling to catch it, it did an emergency call. I quickly hit the hang up button, trying to cancel the call before it rang, but it still went through. Instead, dispatch sent me a text message asking something along the lines of "Is everything OK?". To which I replied "Sorry, accidental dial." They sent back "NO PROBLEM" (caps as in original) and that was that.
My incident occurred in 2010 or 2011, well into cell phone days. My son did this from a land line. (I suspect that call centers have enough info to know the difference). I completely understand the police response to my situation, and appreciated it once I got over the initial incident, and [not trivial from my perspective] after I explained to my neighbors what had caused the incident they had seen. Who knows what they may have thought otherwise.
Quote from: 1995hoo on December 09, 2023, 08:48:09 AM
Quote from: GaryV on December 09, 2023, 07:37:55 AM
Quote from: kalvado on December 09, 2023, 04:27:09 AM
Quote from: geek11111 on December 09, 2023, 12:58:49 AM
You literally only need to memorize 8 digits instead of 10, and makes it easier to be identified as toll free.
Many people are already accustommed to 888 877 866, but 855/44/33/22 looks a hell like a regular area code.
Memorize 800 number? I really never remembered more than 4 digits of any 800 number. and even that for a few seconds while dialing.
Everyone (of a certain age) Sing: "One eight hundred five two eight, one two three four, Best Western".
I have the urge to post the jingle of a certain ad about donating your car to charity. But I won't do that on the off chance someone knows where I live because I don't want a mob showing up with torches and pitchforks.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iDjX4-LKqCA
This phone number is also fairly memorable:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_qhb9_LF7vI
Quote from: Big John on December 09, 2023, 01:53:41 AM
^^ A regular area code may not end in double digits.
I know.
But honestly, 433 doesnt look different from 432 and 434.
I thought the reason for banning repeated digits was because they wanted to reserve those for three-digit service numbers (like the *11s), not because of any difficulties telling numbers apart.
Quote from: Scott5114 on December 11, 2023, 12:51:47 AM
I thought the reason for banning repeated digits was because they wanted to reserve those for three-digit service numbers (like the *11s), not because of any difficulties telling numbers apart.
Yea, save those numbers for still undefined future special services.
Mike
Quote from: Scott5114 on December 09, 2023, 04:38:46 AM
Quote from: tmoore952 on December 08, 2023, 02:10:16 PM
In my case, the sheriff's department came to our door with guns drawn. Apparently when our 911 center gets an incoming call followed by a hangup, the assumption is that the phone call was quietly made by someone who is in trouble, to get help. When I answered the door, the deputies asked several times "is everything OK"? (also part of their training, I assumed) Only after we had convinced them what happened did they back down with the questions and the guns.
With the ease of inadvertently triggering the "emergency call" function on cell phones these days, the SOP has changed somewhat. I accidentally did this once when I was high and almost dropped my phone, and somehow as I was fumbling to catch it, it did an emergency call. I quickly hit the hang up button, trying to cancel the call before it rang, but it still went through. Instead, dispatch sent me a text message asking something along the lines of "Is everything OK?". To which I replied "Sorry, accidental dial." They sent back "NO PROBLEM" (caps as in original) and that was that.
My car was broken into one evening about a year ago, so I had to dial 911 to report it. Then for some reason my phone would pocket dial 911 and I would hear an alarm sound from it. This usually happened at the start of a work break. This went on for a month or two before I figured out I had not made any outgoing call since that 911 call, so the phone kept redialing it. I removed the call from my history and that took care of it.
Quote from: GaryV on December 09, 2023, 07:37:55 AM
Quote from: kalvado on December 09, 2023, 04:27:09 AM
Quote from: geek11111 on December 09, 2023, 12:58:49 AM
You literally only need to memorize 8 digits instead of 10, and makes it easier to be identified as toll free.
Many people are already accustommed to 888 877 866, but 855/44/33/22 looks a hell like a regular area code.
Memorize 800 number? I really never remembered more than 4 digits of any 800 number. and even that for a few seconds while dialing.
Everyone (of a certain age) Sing: "One eight hundred five two eight, one two three four, Best Western".
Here's some phone numbers I remember well despite never calling them. :)
1-800-267-2001 Alarm force (Youtube link (https://youtu.be/ASYcNmccgXU?si=UmCYpe1dIyUmDPI9&t=19))
Celino and Barnes, injury attorneys, call 854-2020 (Youtube link (https://youtu.be/rfqY0XrVLMo?si=jYgCDNXICClNGObG&t=20))
439-0000 Pizza Nova (Youtube link (https://youtu.be/KGXpNpS9aTY?si=and9jaRryWD1zQfJ))
This one I remembered the jingle, but only some of the numbers: 800-588-2300 Empire (Youtube link (https://youtu.be/t7wNaxfBjE4?si=ovU70idL3nqCSsdC))
Quote from: 7/8 on December 12, 2023, 11:05:15 AM
Quote from: GaryV on December 09, 2023, 07:37:55 AM
Quote from: kalvado on December 09, 2023, 04:27:09 AM
Quote from: geek11111 on December 09, 2023, 12:58:49 AM
You literally only need to memorize 8 digits instead of 10, and makes it easier to be identified as toll free.
Many people are already accustommed to 888 877 866, but 855/44/33/22 looks a hell like a regular area code.
Memorize 800 number? I really never remembered more than 4 digits of any 800 number. and even that for a few seconds while dialing.
Everyone (of a certain age) Sing: "One eight hundred five two eight, one two three four, Best Western".
Here's some phone numbers I remember well despite never calling them. :)
1-800-267-2001 Alarm force (Youtube link (https://youtu.be/ASYcNmccgXU?si=UmCYpe1dIyUmDPI9&t=19))
Celino and Barnes, injury attorneys, call 854-2020 (Youtube link (https://youtu.be/rfqY0XrVLMo?si=jYgCDNXICClNGObG&t=20))
439-0000 Pizza Nova (Youtube link (https://youtu.be/KGXpNpS9aTY?si=and9jaRryWD1zQfJ))
This one I remembered the jingle, but only some of the numbers: 800-588-2300 Empire (Youtube link (https://youtu.be/t7wNaxfBjE4?si=ovU70idL3nqCSsdC))
Or the earlier Empire Carpet jingle when most of Chicagoland was in the 312 area code.
Mike
Quote from: 7/8 on December 12, 2023, 11:05:15 AM
Celino and Barnes, injury attorneys, call 854-2020 (Youtube link (https://youtu.be/rfqY0XrVLMo?si=jYgCDNXICClNGObG&t=20))
Same, except I remember 454 (the exchange for the Rochester office) instead of 854. That number works much better with the jingle than the 888-8888 number.
Even over here I still remember a phone number from a distance learning company, +34 902 20 21 22, 902 being the prefix, or "area code", for national rate numbers (obviously the +34 wasn't part of the ad, I only add it to denote it is a number from Spain).
"Four-forty-four-fifty-five-five-five that's the number for the classifieds" for a long-defunct daily paper in Sacramento
Quote from: vdeane on December 12, 2023, 12:57:32 PM
Quote from: 7/8 on December 12, 2023, 11:05:15 AM
Celino and Barnes, injury attorneys, call 854-2020 (Youtube link (https://youtu.be/rfqY0XrVLMo?si=jYgCDNXICClNGObG&t=20))
Same, except I remember 454 (the exchange for the Rochester office) instead of 854. That number works much better with the jingle than the 888-8888 number.
The first time I heard the 888-8888 version I laughed, it just sounds awful!
That reminds me of another one that's easy to remember: Hurt in a car, call William Mattar 444-4444 (Youtube link (https://youtu.be/WQsYxLMAcnI?si=FpfgPGffc1Kb4QCs&t=3))
In the Twin Cities when I was a kid, "488-8888, Pizza Hut delivery is really great."
Here in (920) area code there is a lawyer ad to call 222-2222, and a competing lawyer ad to call 777-7777.
Quote from: 7/8 on December 13, 2023, 01:42:55 PM
Quote from: vdeane on December 12, 2023, 12:57:32 PM
Quote from: 7/8 on December 12, 2023, 11:05:15 AM
Celino and Barnes, injury attorneys, call 854-2020 (Youtube link (https://youtu.be/rfqY0XrVLMo?si=jYgCDNXICClNGObG&t=20))
Same, except I remember 454 (the exchange for the Rochester office) instead of 854. That number works much better with the jingle than the 888-8888 number.
The first time I heard the 888-8888 version I laughed, it just sounds awful!
That reminds me of another one that's easy to remember: Hurt in a car, call William Mattar 444-4444 (Youtube link (https://youtu.be/WQsYxLMAcnI?si=FpfgPGffc1Kb4QCs&t=3))
Oh yeah, I remembered there was a 4 number out there... that leaves 1-800-LAW-1010 for Harding Mazzotti (the Heavy Hitters).
In France I remember seeing phone numbers on billboards and other signs in 4 groups of 2 digits (i.e. 12 34 56 78). That was in the 1990s.
Sometimes a phone number may be easier to remember if not obeying the 3-3-4 pattern.
Like, 101-056-7222.
I used to have a phone number similar to that pattern, but when I say: 1010-567-222, 90% people feel confused and don't even know what on earth I was saying. Interesting.
Quote from: geek11111 on December 14, 2023, 03:20:57 AM
Sometimes a phone number may be easier to remember if not obeying the 3-3-4 pattern.
Like, 101-056-7222.
I used to have a phone number similar to that pattern, but when I say: 1010-567-222, 90% people feel confused and don't even know what on earth I was saying. Interesting.
Heh, I knew someone in college who wrote his phone number as 9-SPERM-9. Hardly a surprise that the number is easy to remember all these years later. (I don't remember the actual digits other than that "SP" would have been "77," as 977- was one of the primary exchanges in Charlottesville at the time.)
Quote from: Road Hog on December 14, 2023, 01:10:50 AM
In France I remember seeing phone numbers on billboards and other signs in 4 groups of 2 digits (i.e. 12 34 56 78). That was in the 1990s.
They have since added a fifth group (and the first one always starts with 0, which is replaced with +33 when calling from outside France), but otherwise stays the same.
Quote from: geek11111 on December 14, 2023, 03:20:57 AM
Sometimes a phone number may be easier to remember if not obeying the 3-3-4 pattern.
Like, 101-056-7222.
I used to have a phone number similar to that pattern, but when I say: 1010-567-222, 90% people feel confused and don't even know what on earth I was saying. Interesting.
An established pattern which helps recognition. 3+3+4 is a phone number, 4+4+4+4 is a credit card, 3+2+4...
Breaking the pattern.. like using comic sans for the text. It certainly can work, but..
Quote from: kalvado on December 14, 2023, 08:55:35 AM
Quote from: geek11111 on December 14, 2023, 03:20:57 AM
Sometimes a phone number may be easier to remember if not obeying the 3-3-4 pattern.
Like, 101-056-7222.
I used to have a phone number similar to that pattern, but when I say: 1010-567-222, 90% people feel confused and don't even know what on earth I was saying. Interesting.
An established pattern which helps recognition. 3+3+4 is a phone number, 4+4+4+4 is a credit card, 3+2+4...
Breaking the pattern.. like using comic sans for the text. It certainly can work, but..
Regarding patterns, I find it distracting when some people use periods to break up phone numbers (e.g., 212.555.1212) because the periods make it look too much like IP addresses. There was an inexplicable fad among law firms, in particular, about 20 years ago to write phone numbers that way. I knew another fellow who used periods to separate the parts of a date (e.g., writing today's date as 12.14.2023 or 12.14.23—I would say the latter, in particular, is potentially confusing unless the context is clear).
Quote from: kalvado on December 14, 2023, 08:55:35 AM
An established pattern which helps recognition. 3+3+4 is a phone number, 4+4+4+4 is a credit card, 3+2+4...
Breaking the pattern.. like using comic sans for the text. It certainly can work, but..
Note that phone numbers vary according to the country. In France, as mentioned above, is 2+2+2+2+2. In Spain it can be either 3+3+3, 3+2+2+2 or (in a few provinces like Madrid or Barcelona) 2+3+2+2. I despise that last pattern, and try to change it to 3+2+2+2, treating the first digit of the 7 digit subscriber number as part of the prefix like elsewhere.
Quote from: CNGL-Leudimin on December 15, 2023, 04:01:28 AM
Quote from: kalvado on December 14, 2023, 08:55:35 AM
An established pattern which helps recognition. 3+3+4 is a phone number, 4+4+4+4 is a credit card, 3+2+4...
Breaking the pattern.. like using comic sans for the text. It certainly can work, but..
Note that phone numbers vary according to the country. In France, as mentioned above, is 2+2+2+2+2. In Spain it can be either 3+3+3, 3+2+2+2 or (in a few provinces like Madrid or Barcelona) 2+3+2+2. I despise that last pattern, and try to change it to 3+2+2+2, treating the first digit of the 7 digit subscriber number as part of the prefix like elsewhere.
Sure, there are different standards in different places and different languages. It's not that I need to write down Spanish or Chinese phone numbers too often, though.
Quote from: Big John on December 13, 2023, 05:26:08 PM
Here in (920) area code there is a lawyer ad to call 222-2222, and a competing lawyer ad to call 777-7777.
Taxi services seem to have consumed those numbers, at least, back when there WERE taxis.
Foco had one that was all 2's (with a 970 in front).
Denver had two, one with all 3's, and one with all 7's.
Quote from: CNGL-Leudimin on December 15, 2023, 04:01:28 AM
... or (in a few provinces like Madrid or Barcelona) 2+3+2+2. I despise that last pattern, and try to change it to 3+2+2+2, treating the first digit of the 7 digit subscriber number as part of the prefix like elsewhere.
Quote from: kalvado on December 15, 2023, 05:57:29 AM
Sure, there are different standards in different places and different languages. It's not that I need to write down Spanish or Chinese phone numbers too often, though.
Mexico is an interesting case. Its area codes are geographically based. Almost all area codes are (AAA) NNNNNNN, but its three largest cities are (AA) NNNNNNNN instead.
Therefore, most of the country writes its phone numbers as (AAA) NNN-NNNN. But in those three cities, it's common to find both (AA) NNNN-NNNN and (AA) NN-NN-NN-NN.
However, those three cities' area codes still fit within the geographical framework. This means that, even though nobody seems to actually do so, it's possible to conceptualize each of them as an overlay of multiple area codes—all of which have the same first two digits. So, for example, with metro Monterrey:
(81) 4982-6610
(81) 2599-3004
(81) 7827-6566
... is functionally the same as ...
(814) 982-6610
(812) 599-3004
(817) 827-6566
... if you imagine that the 814, 812, and 817 area codes are all overlain with each other. They all even fit squarely within the '8' region.