https://maps.app.goo.gl/4Ms9je9QCUXHvaPf8
This crossing at West Broadway in Missoula was Montana Rail Link's 9th Subdivision from Missoula to Darby. MRL shut down the sub in around 2012 because there was no feasibility financially for any business owner near the line to use MRL as a means of transporting goods in between Missoula and Ravalli Counties.
On September 18th, 2023, the rails at this crossing were gutted, and on September 19th, it was paved over and the RxR warning sign was removed, thus, marking an end of an era in Montana railroading. It's unclear what will become of the now-dead 9th Sub.
A couple of the crossings on the LTV Mining-owned line (currently inactive) in northeastern Minnesota had the crossings on TH 1 and Cook County 8 left in place, but the signals removed and signs saying "TRACKS OUT OF SERVICE" posted in advance of the crossing.
There are quite a few of these in the Warehouse District in Fresno. A lot of them were along the tour meet route this year.
Given how many rail lines were ripped-up after the passing of the Staggers Act in 1980, there are easily thousands of abandoned/out of service crossings across the US, though you might not be able to tell there were once any tracks there immediately. Here's one such example (https://www.google.com/maps/@32.2765525,-85.8276132,3a,44.2y,195.95h,88.8t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s3cKJIYbDFq4Rn1ctCmg3SA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttu) where the Seaboard Coast Line's Americus Subdivision once crossed CR 23 just east of Hardaway, AL, ripped out in 1987/1988.
Of course, there are also plenty of long-abandoned/dormant freight spurs where said spurs once had to cross a road or two to get to the customer(s) they served...
A forum I help run actually has a dedicated thread (http://www.rxrsignals.com/Phpbb3/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=1596) to abandoned crossings like this.
The A&CR Railroad from Wauna to Astoria hasn't had a train in 18 years, most of the crossings are blank like this one (https://maps.app.goo.gl/Y6mu5b27mn3AmTHm7) (the only one on GSV) but there's one with the original "RAILWAY CROSSING" crossbucks still standing. It's future is uncertain though, there's been proposals floating around to restore service but it is at high risk of being officially abandoned.
Quite a few along the old Woodinville Subdivision east of Seattle, which is being turned into a long network of bike and pedestrian trails. Quite a few crossing signals remain standing.
This one on the George Washington Parkway in Alexandria still has warning lights (https://maps.app.goo.gl/92VutjULmWxRGVny5), but I've never seen a train passing through there, and if you click over to the parallel service road just east of there (https://maps.app.goo.gl/jjTL9mMfukjtXK6f8), it becomes pretty clear that those tracks are almost certainly no longer in use. I still don't stop on the tracks, though.
CSX across NY 290 east of Syracuse is being removed in the very short future.
There's tons along the north/south roads that cross the old Hojack Line just north of NY 104 in Webster/Ontario. A number of the westernmost ones have become part of the Hojack Trail Rails to Trails project, but others still have tracks.
Notably, and frustratingly, buses still have to stop for inactive rail crossings. This is a particular issue where the tracks are within 100 feet of an intersection, and a stopped bus can catch you off guard if you're not expecting it. NY 104 has several such situations; I once nearly hit a stopped bus that I didn't see until the last second, and just yesterday got honked at for sitting on a green arrow when I couldn't clear the intersection because of the queue for a stopped bus.
Quote from: webny99 on September 20, 2023, 12:39:27 PM
Notably, and frustratingly, buses still have to stop for inactive rail crossings. This is a particular issue where the tracks are within 100 feet of an intersection, and a stopped bus can catch you off guard if you're not expecting it. NY 104 has several such situations; I once nearly hit a stopped bus that I didn't see until the last second, and just yesterday got honked at for sitting on a green arrow when I couldn't clear the intersection because of the queue for a stopped bus.
There are supposed to be "EXEMPT" signs on inactive crossings. Are those signs not there?
Quote from: 1 on September 20, 2023, 12:41:21 PM
Quote from: webny99 on September 20, 2023, 12:39:27 PM
Notably, and frustratingly, buses still have to stop for inactive rail crossings. This is a particular issue where the tracks are within 100 feet of an intersection, and a stopped bus can catch you off guard if you're not expecting it. NY 104 has several such situations; I once nearly hit a stopped bus that I didn't see until the last second, and just yesterday got honked at for sitting on a green arrow when I couldn't clear the intersection because of the queue for a stopped bus.
There are supposed to be "EXEMPT" signs on inactive crossings. Are those signs not there?
Like this (https://maps.app.goo.gl/Vzrq1AgFBJY7Fukr6), which used to be on US-60 in Springfield (MO), before they redid the interchange and grade-separated the crossing.
Quote from: kphoger on September 20, 2023, 12:59:39 PM
Quote from: 1 on September 20, 2023, 12:41:21 PM
Quote from: webny99 on September 20, 2023, 12:39:27 PM
Notably, and frustratingly, buses still have to stop for inactive rail crossings. This is a particular issue where the tracks are within 100 feet of an intersection, and a stopped bus can catch you off guard if you're not expecting it. NY 104 has several such situations; I once nearly hit a stopped bus that I didn't see until the last second, and just yesterday got honked at for sitting on a green arrow when I couldn't clear the intersection because of the queue for a stopped bus.
There are supposed to be "EXEMPT" signs on inactive crossings. Are those signs not there?
Like this (https://maps.app.goo.gl/Vzrq1AgFBJY7Fukr6), which used to be on US-60 in Springfield (MO), before they redid the interchange and grade-separated the crossing.
There is no exempt signage at any of these crossings, near as I can tell, although some of them have yield signs. From east to west...
Fisher Rd (https://maps.app.goo.gl/gtn1BY7Rekxm4mHL6),
Ontario Center Rd (https://maps.app.goo.gl/67Lbu3YLTJsrCEUUA),
County Line Rd (https://maps.app.goo.gl/4TSDMDm3Qhfy4PhKA),
Basket Rd (https://maps.app.goo.gl/Vi6LTAn6tQd622nP7),
Salt Rd (https://maps.app.goo.gl/AeFsBrhJC12zZNqv5), and there are plenty more, but you get the idea.
So the next question is, are these crossings actually inactive, or not? Legally, I don't know the answer to that. What I do know is that, practically speaking, they are inactive. I've crossed these tracks at one location or another at least once per weekday for the last ~10 years and with intermittent frequency before that, and I have
never seen a train crossing at any of them. They're not even equipped with crossing gates, so there's clearly no maintenance or expectation of a train appearing anytime soon -- and nowhere for a train to go if it did appear, because the tracks dead end at Xerox and have been converted to a gravel walking path beyond there.
https://www.google.com/maps/@34.9788422,-81.0821268,18z?entry=ttu
The old abandoned sections of the SB line in York/Cherokee Counties, SC have plenty of inactive crossings, (this is the largest of them) and considering parts of the line have been torn up and most of it is in extremely poor shape, *and* the fact that railroads are continuing to cut service and consolidate routes, it's unlikely these crossings will ever see use again.
Some of them have old, beat up crossing equipment in place which has been gradually stripped and picked apart by other people for scrap.
My internet is being horrifically slow so I can't check for sure, but they may or may not have exempt signs, I don't think all of them are like that though. I feel like I should know that since I passed by them so much over the years.
The old East Kentucky subdivision of L&N (now CSX) might as well be dead. What coal that is being hauled out of Breathitt and Perry counties now goes up the Big Sandy, since a connection was built between the L&N and the old line (which I think was C&O).
Quote from: webny99 on September 20, 2023, 01:33:11 PM
So the next question is, are these crossings actually inactive, or not? Legally, I don't know the answer to that. What I do know is that, practically speaking, they are inactive. I've crossed these tracks at one location or another at least once per weekday for the last ~10 years and with intermittent frequency before that, and I have never seen a train crossing at any of them. They're not even equipped with crossing gates, so there's clearly no maintenance or expectation of a train appearing anytime soon -- and nowhere for a train to go if it did appear, because the tracks dead end at Xerox and have been converted to a gravel walking path beyond there.
OK... Looking into it more... That's the
Ontario Midland Railroad (https://ontariomidland.com/development/).
Here (https://maps.app.goo.gl/yPJgr2S8W6K59v116) is their station in Sodus.
Quote from: kphoger on September 20, 2023, 02:02:52 PM
Quote from: webny99 on September 20, 2023, 01:33:11 PM
So the next question is, are these crossings actually inactive, or not? Legally, I don't know the answer to that. What I do know is that, practically speaking, they are inactive. I've crossed these tracks at one location or another at least once per weekday for the last ~10 years and with intermittent frequency before that, and I have never seen a train crossing at any of them. They're not even equipped with crossing gates, so there's clearly no maintenance or expectation of a train appearing anytime soon -- and nowhere for a train to go if it did appear, because the tracks dead end at Xerox and have been converted to a gravel walking path beyond there.
OK... Looking into it more... That's the Ontario Midland Railroad (https://ontariomidland.com/development/).
Here (https://maps.app.goo.gl/yPJgr2S8W6K59v116) is their station in Sodus.
I doubt anything has been moved along that line west of Sodus in decades, if not longer.
But I did get a chuckle out of "centrally located between Buffalo and Syracuse". That's like saying Yonkers, NY is centrally located between DC and Boston - not false, but certainly not winning any points with the elephant in the room. :-D
Quote from: webny99 on September 20, 2023, 02:59:01 PM
Quote from: kphoger on September 20, 2023, 02:02:52 PM
Quote from: webny99 on September 20, 2023, 01:33:11 PM
So the next question is, are these crossings actually inactive, or not? Legally, I don't know the answer to that. What I do know is that, practically speaking, they are inactive. I've crossed these tracks at one location or another at least once per weekday for the last ~10 years and with intermittent frequency before that, and I have never seen a train crossing at any of them. They're not even equipped with crossing gates, so there's clearly no maintenance or expectation of a train appearing anytime soon -- and nowhere for a train to go if it did appear, because the tracks dead end at Xerox and have been converted to a gravel walking path beyond there.
OK... Looking into it more... That's the Ontario Midland Railroad (https://ontariomidland.com/development/).
Here (https://maps.app.goo.gl/yPJgr2S8W6K59v116) is their station in Sodus.
I doubt anything has been moved along that line west of Sodus in decades, if not longer.
I've found railfan sites in which people mentioned both how nice it was and also how surprising it was to see the railroad in active use. So, while it's far from a busy short line, it apparently does see a little bit of use. When Northern Biodiesel was still operating near the Dean Pkwy intersection (before they closed a few years ago), at the former location of 84 Lumber, they were reportedly a rail customer that saw a couple of railcars per week (
siding visible here (https://maps.app.goo.gl/XMfLvXEVagD2TNUT7)). All that is to say, even if it doesn't have any current customers along that stretch, that doesn't mean it's an inactive railway, nor that a customer couldn't call up tomorrow and schedule a rail shipment.
BTW, in terms of a totally unique "dead" railroad crossing that no longer exists, East 105 Street in Canarsie (https://maps.app.goo.gl/4GGC86JWhiHxYwEc7) (Street View from 2022) used to have a totally unique, for the New York Subway, at-grade crossing for the LL train. The at-grade crossing was removed in 1973 and now a subway station blocks the road's former route.
(https://forgotten-ny.com/wp-content/gallery/neighborhoods_canarsie_01/E105.gradecross2.jpg)
Quote from: kphoger on September 20, 2023, 03:48:53 PM
Quote from: webny99 on September 20, 2023, 02:59:01 PM
Quote from: kphoger on September 20, 2023, 02:02:52 PM
Quote from: webny99 on September 20, 2023, 01:33:11 PM
So the next question is, are these crossings actually inactive, or not? Legally, I don't know the answer to that. What I do know is that, practically speaking, they are inactive. I've crossed these tracks at one location or another at least once per weekday for the last ~10 years and with intermittent frequency before that, and I have never seen a train crossing at any of them. They're not even equipped with crossing gates, so there's clearly no maintenance or expectation of a train appearing anytime soon -- and nowhere for a train to go if it did appear, because the tracks dead end at Xerox and have been converted to a gravel walking path beyond there.
OK... Looking into it more... That's the Ontario Midland Railroad (https://ontariomidland.com/development/).
Here (https://maps.app.goo.gl/yPJgr2S8W6K59v116) is their station in Sodus.
I doubt anything has been moved along that line west of Sodus in decades, if not longer.
I've found railfan sites in which people mentioned both how nice it was and also how surprising it was to see the railroad in active use. So, while it's far from a busy short line, it apparently does see a little bit of use. When Northern Biodiesel was still operating near the Dean Pkwy intersection (before they closed a few years ago), at the former location of 84 Lumber, they were reportedly a rail customer that saw a couple of railcars per week (siding visible here (https://maps.app.goo.gl/XMfLvXEVagD2TNUT7)). All that is to say, even if it doesn't have any current customers along that stretch, that doesn't mean it's an inactive railway, nor that a customer couldn't call up tomorrow and schedule a rail shipment.
That particular building appears to have a spur directly to/from the rail line. If it was active at any point recently, it must have been to/from the east.
Besides which, is it even legal for active crossings to have no crossing gates? And are there any other known instances of yield signs at active crossings?
^^ Not sure if this is a general railroad crossing question. Gates are not required except at high-speed crossings. Yield or stop signs are required at crossings that don't have alternating red signals.
Quote from: webny99 on September 20, 2023, 06:01:41 PM
Besides which, is it even legal for active crossings to have no crossing gates? And are there any other known instances of yield signs at active crossings?
Is that uncommon in your part of the country? They're all over the place out this way.
Quote from: webny99 on September 20, 2023, 01:33:11 PM
Quote from: kphoger on September 20, 2023, 12:59:39 PM
Quote from: 1 on September 20, 2023, 12:41:21 PM
Quote from: webny99 on September 20, 2023, 12:39:27 PM
Notably, and frustratingly, buses still have to stop for inactive rail crossings. This is a particular issue where the tracks are within 100 feet of an intersection, and a stopped bus can catch you off guard if you're not expecting it. NY 104 has several such situations; I once nearly hit a stopped bus that I didn't see until the last second, and just yesterday got honked at for sitting on a green arrow when I couldn't clear the intersection because of the queue for a stopped bus.
There are supposed to be "EXEMPT" signs on inactive crossings. Are those signs not there?
Like this (https://maps.app.goo.gl/Vzrq1AgFBJY7Fukr6), which used to be on US-60 in Springfield (MO), before they redid the interchange and grade-separated the crossing.
There is no exempt signage at any of these crossings, near as I can tell, although some of them have yield signs. From east to west... Fisher Rd (https://maps.app.goo.gl/gtn1BY7Rekxm4mHL6), Ontario Center Rd (https://maps.app.goo.gl/67Lbu3YLTJsrCEUUA), County Line Rd (https://maps.app.goo.gl/4TSDMDm3Qhfy4PhKA), Basket Rd (https://maps.app.goo.gl/Vi6LTAn6tQd622nP7), Salt Rd (https://maps.app.goo.gl/AeFsBrhJC12zZNqv5), and there are plenty more, but you get the idea.
So the next question is, are these crossings actually inactive, or not? Legally, I don't know the answer to that. What I do know is that, practically speaking, they are inactive. I've crossed these tracks at one location or another at least once per weekday for the last ~10 years and with intermittent frequency before that, and I have never seen a train crossing at any of them. They're not even equipped with crossing gates, so there's clearly no maintenance or expectation of a train appearing anytime soon -- and nowhere for a train to go if it did appear, because the tracks dead end at Xerox and have been converted to a gravel walking path beyond there.
The question of whether it's active or not has already been answered, but I'll note from the condition of the warning devices and tracks as well as the presence of the ENS sign (I used Salt Road as a sample; not sure of the others) says to me that there's no way that crossing isn't at least maintained. Contrast with Corinth (https://www.google.com/maps/@43.2430839,-73.8408413,3a,75y,23.24h,91.96t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sqH3LSyVMQX7uyielyJNCtA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttu).
Quote from: kphoger on September 20, 2023, 06:08:55 PM
Quote from: webny99 on September 20, 2023, 06:01:41 PM
Besides which, is it even legal for active crossings to have no crossing gates? And are there any other known instances of yield signs at active crossings?
Is that uncommon in your part of the country? They're all over the place out this way.
Crossing gates are very common, so I guess their absence is uncommon? at least in urban/suburban areas. And I've never paid much attention to whether yield signs are common, as alternating red signals are usually used instead.
This (https://maps.app.goo.gl/Y8Rt1ajK9R1FBCrYA) is my idea of a standard at-grade rail crossing.
Quote from: vdeane on September 20, 2023, 07:48:21 PM
The question of whether it's active or not has already been answered, but I'll note from the condition of the warning devices and tracks as well as the presence of the ENS sign (I used Salt Road as a sample; not sure of the others) says to me that there's no way that crossing isn't at least maintained. Contrast with Corinth (https://www.google.com/maps/@43.2430839,-73.8408413,3a,75y,23.24h,91.96t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sqH3LSyVMQX7uyielyJNCtA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttu).
You're right in terms of "no maintenance" being too strong. They're maintained enough that they could be used if needed, but they aren't, at least beyond the county line. The only potential user would be Xerox, whose Webster plant is much less than what it once was.
The Corinth example having crossing gates despite being in shambles is an interesting contrast. There are well over a dozen Ontario Midland crossings and I don't think any of them have gates.
NY is not allergic to EXEMPT signage: here's one (https://maps.app.goo.gl/Mh65oAtikKzndCYH9) on the eastern branch of the same railroad. There may be a safety aspect here as well, as buses stopping on a super-2 could be dangerous.
Quote from: webny99 on September 20, 2023, 08:50:38 PM
You're right in terms of "no maintenance" being too strong. They're maintained enough that they could be used if needed, but they aren't, at least beyond the county line. The only potential user would be Xerox, whose Webster plant is much less than what it once was.
The FRA grade crossing inventory (https://railroads.dot.gov/safety-data/crossing-and-inventory-data/crossing-inventory-lookup) claims one train per week for the Salt Road crossing with the train count data from last year.
Quote from: webny99 on September 20, 2023, 06:01:41 PM
Besides which, is it even legal for active crossings to have no crossing gates? And are there any other known instances of yield signs at active crossings?
Easily over half the crossings in my general area don't have gates. They've upgraded signals at many crossings, but rarely do they add gates.
This active crossing: https://maps.app.goo.gl/TR4FPQJnjpBcCBiB9 , doesn't have gates, signals, or a stop/yield sign.
Quote from: jeffandnicole on September 20, 2023, 09:52:26 PM
Quote from: webny99 on September 20, 2023, 06:01:41 PM
Besides which, is it even legal for active crossings to have no crossing gates? And are there any other known instances of yield signs at active crossings?
Easily over half the crossings in my general area don't have gates. They've upgraded signals at many crossings, but rarely do they add gates.
This active crossing: https://maps.app.goo.gl/TR4FPQJnjpBcCBiB9 (https://maps.app.goo.gl/TR4FPQJnjpBcCBiB9) , doesn't have gates, signals, or a stop/yield sign.
The terminology threw me off here for a bit. I was wondering how just crossbucks could be considered an active crossing and then I remembered active as in it's in use, not active as in active versus passive warning devices (crossbucks on sticks versus bells, lights, gates, or a combination of them).
Quote from: kphoger on September 20, 2023, 12:59:39 PM
Quote from: 1 on September 20, 2023, 12:41:21 PM
There are supposed to be "EXEMPT" signs on inactive crossings. Are those signs not there?
Like this (https://maps.app.goo.gl/Vzrq1AgFBJY7Fukr6), which used to be on US-60 in Springfield (MO), before they redid the interchange and grade-separated the crossing.
The former US 60 example was active with the Exempt signs. The Exempt signs only meant at least certain vehicles that would normally have to stop at the crossing do not have to. My understanding is a train would stop and make sure all traffic on US 60 was stopped prior to proceeding through the crossing.
Wisconsin seems to have a decent number of active crossings with lower rail volume marked exempt.
The use of Exempt signs also varies by state - I believe in Iowa the signs could not be used unless the track was in the process of being removed (with only the section in the roadway still remaining) or paved over.
Quote from: Big John on September 20, 2023, 06:05:40 PM
^^ Not sure if this is a general railroad crossing question. Gates are not required except at high-speed crossings. Yield or stop signs are required at crossings that don't have alternating red signals.
Not entirely true. MUTCD 8B.04 Paragraph 02 allows a crossbuck without a yield or stop sign "where road users are directed by an authorized person on the ground to not enter the crossing at all times that an approaching train is about to occupy the crossing".
Quote from: vdeane on September 20, 2023, 09:32:54 PM
Quote from: webny99 on September 20, 2023, 08:50:38 PM
You're right in terms of "no maintenance" being too strong. They're maintained enough that they could be used if needed, but they aren't, at least beyond the county line. The only potential user would be Xerox, whose Webster plant is much less than what it once was.
The FRA grade crossing inventory (https://railroads.dot.gov/safety-data/crossing-and-inventory-data/crossing-inventory-lookup) claims one train per week for the Salt Road crossing with the train count data from last year.
If I'm looking at the same report, it also says 0 day, night, switching, or transit trains. The 1 per week is probably just a filler requirement to allow the tracks to keep active status in case they're needed. Without going into too much detail, I'm really familiar with the area and there definitely isn't one per week.. unless Xerox has some midnight activity going on that I don't know about. ;-)
Quote from: jeffandnicole on September 20, 2023, 09:52:26 PM
Quote from: webny99 on September 20, 2023, 06:01:41 PM
Besides which, is it even legal for active crossings to have no crossing gates? And are there any other known instances of yield signs at active crossings?
Easily over half the crossings in my general area don't have gates. They've upgraded signals at many crossings, but rarely do they add gates.
This active crossing: https://maps.app.goo.gl/TR4FPQJnjpBcCBiB9 , doesn't have gates, signals, or a stop/yield sign.
Is this crossing active in name only or is it actually used regularly?
Quote from: webny99 on September 21, 2023, 09:08:49 AM
Quote from: vdeane on September 20, 2023, 09:32:54 PM
Quote from: webny99 on September 20, 2023, 08:50:38 PM
You're right in terms of "no maintenance" being too strong. They're maintained enough that they could be used if needed, but they aren't, at least beyond the county line. The only potential user would be Xerox, whose Webster plant is much less than what it once was.
The FRA grade crossing inventory (https://railroads.dot.gov/safety-data/crossing-and-inventory-data/crossing-inventory-lookup) claims one train per week for the Salt Road crossing with the train count data from last year.
If I'm looking at the same report, it also says 0 day, night, switching, or transit trains. The 1 per week is probably just a filler requirement to allow the tracks to keep active status in case they're needed. Without going into too much detail, I'm really familiar with the area and there definitely isn't one per week.. unless Xerox has some midnight activity going on that I don't know about. ;-)
So for whatever reason they have to fudge the books to keep it an active line. It shouldn't be exempt if there's an active attempt (however silly) to keep the line "alive" IMO.
Quote from: webny99 on September 21, 2023, 09:13:10 AM
Quote from: jeffandnicole on September 20, 2023, 09:52:26 PM
Quote from: webny99 on September 20, 2023, 06:01:41 PM
Besides which, is it even legal for active crossings to have no crossing gates? And are there any other known instances of yield signs at active crossings?
Easily over half the crossings in my general area don't have gates. They've upgraded signals at many crossings, but rarely do they add gates.
This active crossing: https://maps.app.goo.gl/TR4FPQJnjpBcCBiB9 , doesn't have gates, signals, or a stop/yield sign.
Is this crossing active in name only or is it actually used regularly?
At least twice per day, at least one train per direction. The next nearest crossing, which had lights, was upgraded several years ago to include gates. Other crossings along the route have either lights, or lights and gates. This one has remained as shown for the 48 years I've been alive.
Quote from: webny99 on September 20, 2023, 06:01:41 PM
That particular building appears to have a spur directly to/from the rail line. If it was active at any point recently, it must have been to/from the east.
I believe you're correct. FWIW, the line dead-ends to the west near Xerox, just before Phillips Rd. West of that road, the grade has been converted into a trail.
Quote from: webny99 on September 21, 2023, 09:08:49 AM
unless Xerox has some midnight activity going on that I don't know about.
I'm not even sure where Xerox would load/unload a railcar at this point.
In line with both the conversations: I looked up the crossing on the freeway section of WA-432 (https://maps.app.goo.gl/7Acb6YvmwzyFmhUD7) and it has the same 1/week fudging, but was exempted a few years before the trains stopped running.
Quote from: webny99 on September 21, 2023, 09:08:49 AM
Quote from: vdeane on September 20, 2023, 09:32:54 PM
Quote from: webny99 on September 20, 2023, 08:50:38 PM
You're right in terms of "no maintenance" being too strong. They're maintained enough that they could be used if needed, but they aren't, at least beyond the county line. The only potential user would be Xerox, whose Webster plant is much less than what it once was.
The FRA grade crossing inventory (https://railroads.dot.gov/safety-data/crossing-and-inventory-data/crossing-inventory-lookup) claims one train per week for the Salt Road crossing with the train count data from last year.
If I'm looking at the same report, it also says 0 day, night, switching, or transit trains. The 1 per week is probably just a filler requirement to allow the tracks to keep active status in case they're needed. Without going into too much detail, I'm really familiar with the area and there definitely isn't one per week.. unless Xerox has some midnight activity going on that I don't know about. ;-)
OK, so I looked into this even
more. Apparently, the cutoff in current rail traffic is at Williamson, NY. The November DOT inventory forms for the Lake Avenue crossing and points east to the railroad HQ in Sodus all list two daily trains. The forms for the Tuckahoe Road crossing and points west all list one weekly train–including, as you say, Salt Road. Between that fact and 2019 GSV imagery, my assumption is that this means
K. M. Davies Co, Inc. (https://www.kmdavies.com/) is a current customer of the Ontario Midland Railroad with weekly scheduled runs, but that there are currently no customers west of that point.
2019 GSV imagery does also show some railcars off on the siding between Furnace Road and Knickerbocker Road, so perhaps there is/was an occasional customer near there as well.
Quote from: webny99 on September 20, 2023, 01:33:11 PM
... because the tracks dead end at Xerox and have been converted to a gravel walking path beyond there.
Quote from: kphoger on September 21, 2023, 02:02:08 PM
FWIW, the line dead-ends to the west near Xerox, just before Phillips Rd. West of that road, the grade has been converted into a trail.
:cheers: Indeed, I've used that very trail myself a time or two.
Quote from: kphoger on September 21, 2023, 02:41:53 PM
OK, so I looked into this even more. Apparently, the cutoff in current rail traffic is at Williamson, NY. The November DOT inventory forms for the Lake Avenue crossing and points east to the railroad HQ in Sodus all list two daily trains. The forms for the Tuckahoe Road crossing and points west all list one weekly train–including, as you say, Salt Road. Between that fact and 2019 GSV imagery, my assumption is that this means K. M. Davies Co, Inc. (https://www.kmdavies.com/) is a current customer of the Ontario Midland Railroad with weekly scheduled runs, but that there are currently no customers west of that point.
2019 GSV imagery does also show some railcars off on the siding between Furnace Road and Knickerbocker Road, so perhaps there is/was an occasional customer near there as well.
Now that would make sense. I believe that's about the furthest west that I've seen railcars. There's also a large MOTTS factory just west of Pound Rd, which, when I first read your post, I immediately thought of as the likely westernmost customer. But that wouldn't account for the Lake Ave crossing itself unless they're going past Lake Ave to turn around or something.
From Newark, west to Salt Road, sorted by milepost:
(https://i.imgur.com/doo0CXf.png)
(https://i.imgur.com/EIKOxe8.png)
(https://i.imgur.com/80QI2ya.png)
(https://i.imgur.com/2DVbQiM.png)
(https://i.imgur.com/rxik1gp.jpg)
Looks like the Wolcott branch doesn't see any/much current traffic either.
You're welcome.
Quote from: TheHighwayMan394 on September 21, 2023, 01:43:13 PM
Quote from: webny99 on September 21, 2023, 09:08:49 AM
Quote from: vdeane on September 20, 2023, 09:32:54 PM
The FRA grade crossing inventory (https://railroads.dot.gov/safety-data/crossing-and-inventory-data/crossing-inventory-lookup) claims one train per week for the Salt Road crossing with the train count data from last year.
If I'm looking at the same report, it also says 0 day, night, switching, or transit trains. The 1 per week is probably just a filler requirement to allow the tracks to keep active status in case they're needed. Without going into too much detail, I'm really familiar with the area and there definitely isn't one per week.. unless Xerox has some midnight activity going on that I don't know about. ;-)
So for whatever reason they have to fudge the books to keep it an active line. It shouldn't be exempt if there's an active attempt (however silly) to keep the line "alive" IMO.
I agree with this, FWIW. It's just annoying that a dozen plus buses per school day have to stop when there doesn't seem to be any good reason why the line is kept active.
Quote from: kphoger on September 21, 2023, 02:16:28 PM
Quote from: webny99 on September 21, 2023, 09:08:49 AM
unless Xerox has some midnight activity going on that I don't know about.
I'm not even sure where Xerox would load/unload a railcar at this point.
copy that.
Quote from: kphoger on September 21, 2023, 03:21:37 PM
Looks like the Wolcott branch doesn't see any/much current traffic either.
Confirmed:
Quote from: webny99 on September 20, 2023, 08:59:47 PM
NY is not allergic to EXEMPT signage: here's one (https://maps.app.goo.gl/Mh65oAtikKzndCYH9) on the eastern branch of the same railroad. There may be a safety aspect here as well, as buses stopping on a super-2 could be dangerous.
Quote from: Big John on September 21, 2023, 03:31:21 PM
Quote from: kphoger on September 21, 2023, 02:16:28 PM
Quote from: webny99 on September 21, 2023, 09:08:49 AM
unless Xerox has some midnight activity going on that I don't know about.
I'm not even sure where Xerox would load/unload a railcar at this point.
copy that.
Alright, toner down now...
The old Baltimore and Hanover Railroad in Maryland-Pennsylvania has to apply.
Quote from: webny99 on September 21, 2023, 09:08:49 AM
Quote from: vdeane on September 20, 2023, 09:32:54 PM
Quote from: webny99 on September 20, 2023, 08:50:38 PM
You're right in terms of "no maintenance" being too strong. They're maintained enough that they could be used if needed, but they aren't, at least beyond the county line. The only potential user would be Xerox, whose Webster plant is much less than what it once was.
The FRA grade crossing inventory (https://railroads.dot.gov/safety-data/crossing-and-inventory-data/crossing-inventory-lookup) claims one train per week for the Salt Road crossing with the train count data from last year.
If I'm looking at the same report, it also says 0 day, night, switching, or transit trains. The 1 per week is probably just a filler requirement to allow the tracks to keep active status in case they're needed. Without going into too much detail, I'm really familiar with the area and there definitely isn't one per week.. unless Xerox has some midnight activity going on that I don't know about. ;-)
Those other boxes are for when there are multiple trains per day.
Quote from: webny99 on September 21, 2023, 09:13:10 AM
Quote from: jeffandnicole on September 20, 2023, 09:52:26 PM
Quote from: webny99 on September 20, 2023, 06:01:41 PM
Besides which, is it even legal for active crossings to have no crossing gates? And are there any other known instances of yield signs at active crossings?
Easily over half the crossings in my general area don't have gates. They've upgraded signals at many crossings, but rarely do they add gates.
This active crossing: https://maps.app.goo.gl/TR4FPQJnjpBcCBiB9 , doesn't have gates, signals, or a stop/yield sign.
Is this crossing active in name only or is it actually used regularly?
If it was "active in name only", it'd most likely be filed as "no train traffic" with the FRA, as the since ripped NS AG Branch in Gadsden, AL (http://www.rxrsignals.com/Alabama/G-Q/Gadsden/9_2/), was.
My guess is that the line, even if it doesn't have any customers directly on it, still sees the occasional storage or transloading move, which a lot of shortlines across the US do to make money. My local shortline, the Huntsville & Madison County Railroad, is one-such example, as they no longer have any customers directly on either of their lines, but here in Huntsville you can still semi-regularly catch them running twice a day a few days every week (sometimes more) to pull stored/transloaded cars in or out from the south end of their line. Of course, if the line is used for car storage, said storage moves might not even be once a week. They could easily be once a month, or a handful of times a year (at best).
That being said, looking at the crossings in question, the rails around the crossing seem rather dull in the street view images and the tracks on the edges of the crossing grade are very much rusty, so, if there is any service, it's rather infrequent.
Inactive rail crossings are a dime a dozen. Utah alone probably has hundreds of them. Here's one on the old Tintic branch line in Payson (https://maps.app.goo.gl/U4ZQE9AnCXWzmHQc9).
Also re: the conversation about whether active crossings need gates... in my experience, only crossings in relatively well populated or on high traffic roads that also get a moderate amount of train use will have them. This active but lightly used crossing in a relatively suburban area (https://maps.app.goo.gl/z221XtK6KErH3jWu5), for example, doesn't have any gates. Same deal with this one (https://maps.app.goo.gl/fyswew5cGGKUgyxj6), and the same line just down the road has a crossing with only a yield sign (https://maps.app.goo.gl/zjB3TsgX9FBgZAR77). For one in a more urban context, here's a lightly used but very much active crossing with no gates and only a couple small side signals (https://maps.app.goo.gl/B8q7Beyw85UA9GCd6), despite the fact that it is crossing a busy six lane arterial. In more rural areas, you can often find fairly busy crossings without gates of any kind (example (https://maps.app.goo.gl/zHeZYrpKtqpni5Ko9)).
To me, a gate is an explicit indication that a crossing is going to be active and well-used. Absence of one doesn't tell me much.
A couple of those have some very nice classic cantilever signals at them, even if the lights are newer 12 inch ones, lol.
Quote from: freebrickproductions on September 21, 2023, 08:46:35 PM
Quote from: webny99 on September 21, 2023, 09:13:10 AM
Quote from: jeffandnicole on September 20, 2023, 09:52:26 PM
Quote from: webny99 on September 20, 2023, 06:01:41 PM
Besides which, is it even legal for active crossings to have no crossing gates? And are there any other known instances of yield signs at active crossings?
Easily over half the crossings in my general area don't have gates. They've upgraded signals at many crossings, but rarely do they add gates.
This active crossing: https://maps.app.goo.gl/TR4FPQJnjpBcCBiB9 , doesn't have gates, signals, or a stop/yield sign.
Is this crossing active in name only or is it actually used regularly?
If it was "active in name only", it'd most likely be filed as "no train traffic" with the FRA, as the since ripped NS AG Branch in Gadsden, AL (http://www.rxrsignals.com/Alabama/G-Q/Gadsden/9_2/), was.
My guess is that the line, even if it doesn't have any customers directly on it, still sees the occasional storage or transloading move, which a lot of shortlines across the US do to make money. My local shortline, the Huntsville & Madison County Railroad, is one-such example, as they no longer have any customers directly on either of their lines, but here in Huntsville you can still semi-regularly catch them running twice a day a few days every week (sometimes more) to pull stored/transloaded cars in or out from the south end of their line. Of course, if the line is used for car storage, said storage moves might not even be once a week. They could easily be once a month, or a handful of times a year (at best).
That being said, looking at the crossings in question, the rails around the crossing seem rather dull in the street view images and the tracks on the edges of the crossing grade are very much rusty, so, if there is any service, it's rather infrequent.
As I mentioned in my other response, this line is truly active, with at least 2 trains per day, one per direction.
Quote from: jeffandnicole on September 21, 2023, 10:42:31 PM
As I mentioned in my other response, this line is truly active, with at least 2 trains per day, one per direction.
Fair point.
Anyways, have an abandoned-ish crossing on the former TAG:
http://www.rxrsignals.com/Georgia/A-F/Chattanooga_Valley/South/
Further down the line is this rather neat 4-way crossing:
http://www.rxrsignals.com/Georgia/G-Q/Kensington/GA136_GA193_2/
My dad was (and is) a fan of railroads and would take us to show remnants of old lines not far from where we lived. He showed me the hump where the highway used to cross the railroad until the 1940s and the hump is still there, sonofagun. Fence lines and tree rows can still be seen on satellite views of where the railroad used to run.
The rails and ties were of course long gone but the old telegraph poles were still up into the 1980s.
Quote from: webny99 on September 20, 2023, 08:50:38 PM
Quote from: kphoger on September 20, 2023, 06:08:55 PM
Quote from: webny99 on September 20, 2023, 06:01:41 PM
Besides which, is it even legal for active crossings to have no crossing gates? And are there any other known instances of yield signs at active crossings?
Is that uncommon in your part of the country? They're all over the place out this way.
Crossing gates are very common, so I guess their absence is uncommon? at least in urban/suburban areas. And I've never paid much attention to whether yield signs are common, as alternating red signals are usually used instead. This (https://maps.app.goo.gl/Y8Rt1ajK9R1FBCrYA) is my idea of a standard at-grade rail crossing.
In my city of Wichita:
https://maps.app.goo.gl/GdjGr2quq34bQbTd7 (yield sign)
https://maps.app.goo.gl/ZFkpziucjyR2D88T6 (crossbuck only)
https://maps.app.goo.gl/sJSWwxMCNULqrzxq6 (yield sign)
https://maps.app.goo.gl/3pEsd8T8JmQgStGX6 (crossbuck only)
https://maps.app.goo.gl/7XMdFGTgc3ShAvLV9 (crossbuck only)
Rochester, NY:
https://maps.app.goo.gl/9v3QCjeAW8kWminU7 (yield sign)
https://maps.app.goo.gl/K1Q9AYAnobS8nicn9 (stop sign)
https://maps.app.goo.gl/QZbRs7ziXhGbdrEb9 (lights but no gates)
https://maps.app.goo.gl/wLy8HBYy9vMvDadt9 (lights but no gates)
Quote from: kphoger on September 22, 2023, 10:53:30 AM
Quote from: webny99 on September 20, 2023, 08:50:38 PM
Quote from: kphoger on September 20, 2023, 06:08:55 PM
Quote from: webny99 on September 20, 2023, 06:01:41 PM
Besides which, is it even legal for active crossings to have no crossing gates? And are there any other known instances of yield signs at active crossings?
Is that uncommon in your part of the country? They're all over the place out this way.
Crossing gates are very common, so I guess their absence is uncommon? at least in urban/suburban areas. And I've never paid much attention to whether yield signs are common, as alternating red signals are usually used instead. This (https://maps.app.goo.gl/Y8Rt1ajK9R1FBCrYA) is my idea of a standard at-grade rail crossing.
Rochester, NY:
https://maps.app.goo.gl/9v3QCjeAW8kWminU7 (yield sign)
Not to start Ontario-Midland 2.0, but there's likely very low to zero train activity on that line.
Quote from: kphoger on September 22, 2023, 10:53:30 AM
https://maps.app.goo.gl/K1Q9AYAnobS8nicn9 (stop sign)
Interesting example, but worth noting that it's not a public roadway beyond the tracks.
If anything, I think the group of examples points up that both lights and crossing gates
are more common here than in other parts of the country, even if they're far from universal.
Here's a dead crossing in New Jersey still owned by Conrail. Looks like one of the signals got wiped-out by a car between 2020 and 2021
https://www.google.com/maps/@40.4800651,-74.4844341,3a,71.8y,36.32h,88.34t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s_qFYTSayX66Yvrlf8yD1sg!2e0!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttu
Going west one crossing you can see that the tracks have since ripped from the road as well.
https://www.google.com/maps/@40.4848504,-74.5049158,3a,75y,12.43h,81.46t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s8Y5MIfHyPNlRSel9VrK1tA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttu
The next crossing west of that still retains the rails in the road, but with some interesting signs posted at it.
https://www.google.com/maps/@40.486582,-74.5105314,3a,66.8y,214.42h,76.65t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1swZvjeRcTKK6dmdaPjn1lew!2e0!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttu
Quote from: webny99 on September 22, 2023, 01:07:44 PM
Quote from: kphoger on September 22, 2023, 10:53:30 AM
Rochester, NY:
https://maps.app.goo.gl/9v3QCjeAW8kWminU7 (yield sign)
Not to start Ontario-Midland 2.0, but there's likely very low to zero train activity on that line.
Not to start Ontario-Midland 2.0, but ... two daily switching trains according to the inventory reports.
For what it's worth, I just ran a report for all of Rochester. Here are a couple I missed:
https://maps.app.goo.gl/6fYmksakVi3JFN7x5 – Lights but no gates, 1 daily switching train
https://maps.app.goo.gl/J3MnWrda5iPc4wtX9 – Lights but no gates, 2 daily switching trains
And here are some you might find more interesting
https://maps.app.goo.gl/rHxzEYbx3RFtbP5D8 – Yield sign, tracks not in active use
https://maps.app.goo.gl/s8UKqaZnxJSLf6Ce6 – Crossbucks only, "tracks out of service", have since been ripped up and paved over
Here's one in Lillie, Louisiana that I went over recently: https://www.google.com/maps/@32.9233628,-92.6464319,18.85z?entry=ttu
All that's left is some faded paint and a 15mph BUMP advisory sign before the eastbound approach. It's notably missing from the westbound side, as I found out after I hit the crossing going 55 and felt like my car was airborne :spin:
Quote from: freebrickproductions on September 22, 2023, 01:19:15 PM
The next crossing west of that still retains the rails in the road, but with some interesting signs posted at it.
https://www.google.com/maps/@40.486582,-74.5105314,3a,66.8y,214.42h,76.65t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1swZvjeRcTKK6dmdaPjn1lew!2e0!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttu
The blocky font makes me think the signs are Franklin Township installations. The logic was probably "Yes we know the pavement quality sucks but we're not allowed to repave it. Call them and complain."
All moot since this crossing has since been paved over as well (Bing Maps):
(https://i.imgur.com/mt6XfjS.jpg)
Quote from: debragga on September 23, 2023, 01:52:02 AM
Here's one in Lillie, Louisiana that I went over recently: https://www.google.com/maps/@32.9233628,-92.6464319,18.85z?entry=ttu
All that's left is some faded paint and a 15mph BUMP advisory sign before the eastbound approach. It's notably missing from the westbound side, as I found out after I hit the crossing going 55 and felt like my car was airborne :spin:
Used to have quite a bit more back in 2014, with a gateless cantilever and a gateless mast at it.
https://www.google.com/maps/@32.9232862,-92.6463069,3a,75y,77.44h,81.25t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sd-rqQQifvqew5YiPTSpM5w!2e0!5s20140601T000000!7i13312!8i6656?entry=ttu
Looks like part of the guard-rail of the mast signal still stands, or at least stood as of 2021. Looks like it was a former Rock Island line that was used for car storage in its last years. Going north into Junction City, AR, the crossing on US 63/US 167 still retains the old signal foundations and relay case:
https://www.google.com/maps/@33.0324534,-92.7157479,3a,75y,78.73h,86.21t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s2fLeBgVR27SzEvcyNshMaw!2e0!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttu
Track with ivy growing over it and a bush next to it. (https://maps.app.goo.gl/hK3LougYUQGuZkcy7) Buses still had to stop for this because it was still marked with a cross buck. They've since replaced it with a "Tracks out of service" sign.
This crossing (https://maps.app.goo.gl/JbDUD4jUTNuCd1f26) has been abandoned for as long as I can remember, but the crossbucks were still there until recently. I can't remember there ever being lights or gates.
Quote from: Takumi on October 15, 2023, 12:28:26 PM
This crossing (https://maps.app.goo.gl/JbDUD4jUTNuCd1f26) has been abandoned for as long as I can remember, but the crossbucks were still there until recently. I can't remember there ever being lights or gates.
Probably not. A lot of more minor crossings, especially on less-busy roads in rural areas, were (and still are) often just crossbucks only.