Basically, I'm talking about highways with 3+ lanes where either cars or trucks stay in the center lane despite (1) traveling next to traffic in the right lane at the same speed, thereby causing a pocket of slow traffic to form, therefore causing (2) the left lane to clog with traffic attempting to pass traffic in both the center lane and right lane.
This seems to have gotten worse over the past couple years. Every day at least once I'll sit in the left lane behind a line of cars that are all passing that one truck that hogs the center lane going 60mph right next to someone (rightfully) going 60mph in the left lane.
Any thoughts?
It's common enough here that I don't even notice or think about it when I see it.
Ugh, centre lane camping is unfortunately the norm in Ontario. At busy times, it feels like half the vehicles on the highway are piled in the left lane because of slow people hanging in the centre lane(s), with the right lane being underutilized. Some people will pass in the right lane in frustration, but you can only get so far before needing to join back into the left lane lineup again. Ironically it causes left lane camping, because you don't want to leave the left lane and not be able to get back in the lineup again.
Thankfully my short commute to work involves zero highway driving!
Depends on the situation. On the Detroit-area urban freeways where exits/entrances are one or more every mile and traffic in the right lane often slows for decelerating/accelerating vehicles or exit ramp backups, yes, I "camp" in the center lane and do the speed limit or higher. That truck in the right lane (I assume you meant to say right lane) may be doing 60, but won't be for long. I hope to not incite another riot here by saying it but I'm not positioning myself where I will have to repeatedly slow down/speed up, or constantly switch lanes to pass slower drivers in the right lane, for the benefit of someone wanting to exceed the speed limit even more than I am.
On the other hand, with distantly-spaced ramps (think Ohio Turnpike with its ramps spaced 10+ miles apart), I'm in the right lane unless I'm passing.
Quote from: 7/8 on October 17, 2023, 03:12:00 PM
Ugh, centre lane camping is unfortunately the norm in Ontario. At busy times, it feels like half the vehicles on the highway are piled in the left lane because of slow people hanging in the centre lane(s), with the right lane being underutilized. Some people will pass in the right lane in frustration, but you can only get so far before needing to join back into the left lane lineup again. Ironically it causes left lane camping, because you don't want to leave the left lane and not be able to get back in the lineup again.
Yes! The QEW from Niagara Falls to Hamilton is highly frustrating in this respect. On one hand it almost seems to need 8 lanes at busy times. On the other hand, the right lane is empty half the time while the left lane starts to pile up even when its not that busy... but there's juuust enough trucks, entering traffic, and other slow traffic that you can't use the right lane reliably.
Wasn't this already a forum topic?
I've noticed that there tends to be a mentality of "if I do X over the limit, I can camp in the center lane". I honestly wonder if it's part of the reason why speed limits are so low in the northeast - if speed limits were more realistic, the campers might start to feel like they actually need to keep right, and they don't want to do that, because most people dislike lane changes (I've actually had someone tell me that she would never wish for the speed limit on I-787 to increase above 55, because then she couldn't just sit in the middle lane doing 60).
Quote from: vdeane on October 17, 2023, 09:01:34 PM
I've noticed that there tends to be a mentality of "if I do X over the limit, I can camp in the center lane". I honestly wonder if it's part of the reason why speed limits are so low in the northeast - if speed limits were more realistic, the campers might start to feel like they actually need to keep right, and they don't want to do that, because most people dislike lane changes (I've actually had someone tell me that she would never wish for the speed limit on I-787 to increase above 55, because then she couldn't just sit in the middle lane doing 60).
I've sometimes wondered whether the point you make about disliking lane changes might factor into why some drivers avoid the right lane—they don't want to come into conflict with, and then either have to change lanes for or slow down for, drivers entering the highway. I might be giving those people too much credit, though, because I also tend to suspect the average driver doesn't think about anyone but himself and doesn't give a damn about anyone else's convenience but his own.
In principle, I tend to think that as long as there is at least one lane to the left available for someone to pass, it isn't a problem for someone to be going "not as fast" as someone else wants in a lane other than the right lane. For example, if I'm on the Beltway (four lanes on each side, 55-mph speed limit) going 65 mph in the third lane over from the right (i.e., two lanes to my right, one lane to my left), and there is consistent traffic to my right, the fact that the guy behind me wants to go 75 mph doesn't obligate me to move over to the right because he can pass me on the left—especially if moving over to the right would cause me to have to slow down to 60 mph or some such. With that said, however, if either there is no traffic to the right or someone is going significantly slower than the
overall speed of traffic and can move further to the right without having to slow down to do it, then I feel like that person ought to move further to the right (to use my example, if I were going 65 mph and being consistently passed on both sides—"consistently" meaning by the bulk of traffic and not just by the occasional PG County nutjob who's whipping back and forth across all four lanes weaving in and out with no signal—then I'd say I should be at least one lane further to the right).
Then you have situations where the road's configuration leads to slower traffic being to the left and faster traffic being to the right. The Beltway's Inner Loop at the western side of the Springfield Interchange is a good example of that. The Beltway has four lanes coming from the east. The left two lanes become the HO/T lanes and the right two lanes become the left two general-purpose lanes. Meanwhile, four lanes coming from I-95 and I-395 join on the right; of those four, the two right lanes end and the two left lanes then become the two righthand general-purpose lanes. There is always a lot of lane-changing and jockeying for position going on, but that's one place where I can't necessarily blame someone who was in the right lane on the Beltway going 55 to 60 mph for suddenly winding up one lane to the right of the left lane and not immediately trying to get over to the right. I don't fear changing lanes, but I don't love doing it in that particular area just because there is so much jockeying for position. (Edited to add: Here's a Street View link. The Google car is already on the Beltway in the right lane, but the lane he's in will be the third lane from the right—the second general-purpose lane from the left—once he gets beyond the merge up ahead. (https://maps.app.goo.gl/nfQ6MCFtqRNSGr11A) The lane where the black minivan is will become an HO/T lane—it'll be the right lane of two HO/T lanes.)
Quote from: vdeane on October 17, 2023, 09:01:34 PM
I've noticed that there tends to be a mentality of "if I do X over the limit, I can camp in the center lane". I honestly wonder if it's part of the reason why speed limits are so low in the northeast - if speed limits were more realistic, the campers might start to feel like they actually need to keep right, and they don't want to do that, because most people dislike lane changes (I've actually had someone tell me that she would never wish for the speed limit on I-787 to increase above 55, because then she couldn't just sit in the middle lane doing 60).
It's not so much that I dislike lane changes; it's that, to which you allude, they can be hard to do in heavy traffic without cutting off someone.
Quote from: 1995hoo on October 18, 2023, 10:17:06 AM
I've sometimes wondered whether the point you make about disliking lane changes might factor into why some drivers avoid the right lane—they don't want to come into conflict with, and then either have to change lanes for or slow down for, drivers entering the highway. I might be giving those people too much credit, though, because I also tend to suspect the average driver doesn't think about anyone but himself and doesn't give a damn about anyone else's convenience but his own.
A great comment, because it plays both ways. The bitching about center lane camping comes from drivers don't think about anyone but themselves and don't give a damn about anyone else's convenience or comfort level but their own.
Quote from: wanderer2575 on October 18, 2023, 10:53:00 AM
Quote from: 1995hoo on October 18, 2023, 10:17:06 AM
I've sometimes wondered whether the point you make about disliking lane changes might factor into why some drivers avoid the right lane—they don't want to come into conflict with, and then either have to change lanes for or slow down for, drivers entering the highway. I might be giving those people too much credit, though, because I also tend to suspect the average driver doesn't think about anyone but himself and doesn't give a damn about anyone else's convenience but his own.
A great comment, because it plays both ways. The bitching about center lane camping comes from drivers don't think about anyone but themselves and don't give a damn about anyone else's convenience or comfort level but their own.
I also think this is a great comment because I have gotten to a point where I do care about other people's convenience, safety, comfort level etc. (think of things like not following too closely, or moving to center lane when a heavy merge from the right is approaching) and then I get to a "why bother" point because you sense that many people don't return the favor, and you don't know if they are being oblivious or being provocative. A lot of times I sense provocative.
Quote from: wanderer2575 on October 18, 2023, 10:53:00 AM
Quote from: 1995hoo on October 18, 2023, 10:17:06 AM
I've sometimes wondered whether the point you make about disliking lane changes might factor into why some drivers avoid the right lane—they don't want to come into conflict with, and then either have to change lanes for or slow down for, drivers entering the highway. I might be giving those people too much credit, though, because I also tend to suspect the average driver doesn't think about anyone but himself and doesn't give a damn about anyone else's convenience but his own.
A great comment, because it plays both ways. The bitching about center lane camping comes from drivers don't think about anyone but themselves and don't give a damn about anyone else's convenience or comfort level but their own.
Oh, I couldn't possibly disagree more. The disdain for center lane camping has nothing at all to do with one's own comfort and convenience level. You can't possibly believe that a driver that
doesn't lane camp - in other words, makes regular lane changes depending on their speed and traffic conditions around them - does so because it's more comfortable and convenient for them. In fact it's all about making things better for
everyone on the road and improving the overall efficiency of the roadway.
Quote from: webny99 on October 18, 2023, 11:13:39 AM
Quote from: wanderer2575 on October 18, 2023, 10:53:00 AM
Quote from: 1995hoo on October 18, 2023, 10:17:06 AM
I've sometimes wondered whether the point you make about disliking lane changes might factor into why some drivers avoid the right lane—they don't want to come into conflict with, and then either have to change lanes for or slow down for, drivers entering the highway. I might be giving those people too much credit, though, because I also tend to suspect the average driver doesn't think about anyone but himself and doesn't give a damn about anyone else's convenience but his own.
A great comment, because it plays both ways. The bitching about center lane camping comes from drivers don't think about anyone but themselves and don't give a damn about anyone else's convenience or comfort level but their own.
Oh, I couldn't possibly disagree more. The disdain for center lane camping has nothing at all to do with one's own comfort and convenience level. You can't possibly believe that a driver that doesn't lane camp - in other words, makes regular lane changes depending on their speed and traffic conditions around them - does so because it's more comfortable and convenient for them. In fact it's all about making things better for everyone on the road and improving the overall efficiency of the roadway.
I'll say this -- I think that most center lane camping happens because drivers go into a vegetative driving state and just lose all sense of awareness about their surroundings.
In urban areas, the right lane becomes congested with entering/exiting vehicles driving slower than the speed limit. In rural areas, I find the right lane to be the fastest.
I freely admit to being a center lane camper, especially on that stretch of I-64 between Winchester and Lexington. I feel safer in the center lane. If I am in the right or left lane and I want to move into the center lane, I have to check to be sure that there isn't another vehicle vying for the same piece of real estate that I want to occupy. I typically drive five to seven miles over the speed limit anyway, so it's not like I'm impeding anyone's progress. And there's generally enough slower traffic in the right lane that I'm constantly passing someone.
Welcome to I-4 in Central Florida. Center Lane campers always especially with semis.
At least in North Carolina as of 2018, in drivers' ed they teach you that on a road with three lanes going the same direction, the center lane is for thru travel, the left lane is for passing, and the right lane is for merging, exiting, or entering traffic. On a road with frequently merging traffic, or if you're going faster than the right lane I don't see it to be unreasonable to camp in the center lane.
Even if not, I really don't care so long as you're not blocking the left lane or doing something in the center lane which would impede traffic wanting to pass you from getting in the left lane. I guess it's sort of a grey area.
Everybody does it, all the time, everywhere. And I hate it.
Quote from: index on October 18, 2023, 01:47:25 PM
At least in North Carolina as of 2018, in drivers' ed they teach you that on a road with three lanes going the same direction, the center lane is for thru travel, the left lane is for passing, and the right lane is for merging, exiting, or entering traffic. On a road with frequently merging traffic, or if you're going faster than the right lane I don't see it to be unreasonable to camp in the center lane.
Even if not, I really don't care so long as you're not blocking the left lane or doing something in the center lane which would impede traffic wanting to pass you from getting in the left lane. I guess it's sort of a grey area.
And this is typically why I get to the middle lane soon after entering a 3x3 Interstate. Most of them don't exist except in suburban or urban areas, and typically have an entrance/exit ramp pretty well every mile. And since I'm considerate of those attempting to merge onto the Interstate by giving them the right lane to merge onto without coming to a full stop at the end of the entrance ramp, it would necessitate a near constant state of lane changes, which are actually more detrimental to traffic flow than keeping a lane and keeping up with traffic in it. Right lanes in suburban/urban areas are pretty much for local traffic where you can actually find a 3x3 or greater with the leftmost lanes for thru traffic.
With rare exceptions, if someone passes you in the right lane, then you shouldn't have been in the center lane.
a. If traffic is so light that someone already in the right lane can just tootle on past you on that side, then traffic is light enough that there's no reason for you to not have been in the right lane to begin with.
b. If traffic is so heavy that faster traffic is passing you on both sides, then you are impeding the flow of traffic by not being in the right lane to begin with.
c. If entering/exiting traffic is so thick at your location that keeping to the center lane is actually necessary, then probably nobody is passing you on the right anyway, so my initial assertion does not apply.
Quote from: MikieTimT on October 18, 2023, 02:36:53 PM
Quote from: index on October 18, 2023, 01:47:25 PM
At least in North Carolina as of 2018, in drivers' ed they teach you that on a road with three lanes going the same direction, the center lane is for thru travel, the left lane is for passing, and the right lane is for merging, exiting, or entering traffic. On a road with frequently merging traffic, or if you're going faster than the right lane I don't see it to be unreasonable to camp in the center lane.
Even if not, I really don't care so long as you're not blocking the left lane or doing something in the center lane which would impede traffic wanting to pass you from getting in the left lane. I guess it's sort of a grey area.
And this is typically why I get to the middle lane soon after entering a 3x3 Interstate. Most of them don't exist except in suburban or urban areas, and typically have an entrance/exit ramp pretty well every mile. And since I'm considerate of those attempting to merge onto the Interstate by giving them the right lane to merge onto without coming to a full stop at the end of the entrance ramp, it would necessitate a near constant state of lane changes, which are actually more detrimental to traffic flow than keeping a lane and keeping up with traffic in it. Right lanes in suburban/urban areas are pretty much for local traffic where you can actually find a 3x3 or greater with the leftmost lanes for thru traffic.
The problem is when this mindset is applied to
rural six-lane freeways, which are increasing in number across the country. These freeways don't necessarily have frequent exits and are heavily used by long-distance traffic. They can be frustrating to drive when KRETP is not adhered to, because they're so busy that a single passing lane is not sufficient, so lineups form on the left while large sporadic gaps form on the right. This makes cruise-setting all but impossible.
Some examples include much of the Ohio Turnpike, I-71 between Cleveland and Columbus, I-75 south of Atlanta, I-84 between Hartford and the Mass Pike, I-95 between Baltimore and Wilmington, the aforementioned QEW between Hamilton and Niagara Falls, and ON 400 between Vaughan and Barrie.
Quote from: index on October 18, 2023, 01:47:25 PM
At least in North Carolina as of 2018, in drivers' ed they teach you that on a road with three lanes going the same direction, the center lane is for thru travel, the left lane is for passing, and the right lane is for merging, exiting, or entering traffic. On a road with frequently merging traffic, or if you're going faster than the right lane I don't see it to be unreasonable to camp in the center lane.
Even if not, I really don't care so long as you're not blocking the left lane or doing something in the center lane which would impede traffic wanting to pass you from getting in the left lane. I guess it's sort of a grey area.
But the issue is when people camp in the center lane and move at the the same speed as the right land and/or drive adjacent to a vehicle in the right lane. I don't feel as though I should have to shift two lanes to pass someone in the right lane AND the center lane.
Center lane campers on rural 3 lane freeways can get bent. Keep right except to pass, fuckers! This means you!
Quote from: webny99 on October 18, 2023, 03:13:26 PM
The problem is when this mindset is applied to rural six-lane freeways, which are increasing in number across the country. These freeways don't necessarily have frequent exits and are heavily used by long-distance traffic. They can be frustrating to drive when KRETP is not adhered to, because they're so busy that a single passing lane is not sufficient, so lineups form on the left while large sporadic gaps form on the right. This makes cruise-setting all but impossible.
Some examples include much of the Ohio Turnpike, I-71 between Cleveland and Columbus, I-75 south of Atlanta, I-84 between Hartford and the Mass Pike, I-95 between Baltimore and Wilmington, the aforementioned QEW between Hamilton and Niagara Falls, and ON 400 between Vaughan and Barrie.
I'm not sure I would refer to I-95 between Baltimore and Wilmington as rural. That's the only interstate between those two cities (for 95% of that distance, between Baltimore and I-295 interchange), and it serves the entire I-95 corridor traffic. When you get to the Wilmington-Trenton axis, you have three and/or four limited access highways serving that corridor (I-95, I-495 in Delaware only, I-295 and the NJ Turnpike). But down there, it's the only one. I used to drive from DC to Wilmington often to visit family, and I would avoid I-95 most of the time because if something happened on it, there is no good alternative. My go-to alternative actually was US 1 north of Baltimore (and then cut south at Kennett Square), not US 40.
When I did venture to drive that stretch of I-95, I used to stay in the right lane all the time and I still got scared s***less more than I care to mention because of crazy passing and much-too-high speeds.
The word "rural" to me suggests something like central Illinois, although I know that's not what you meant.
Quote from: index on October 18, 2023, 01:47:25 PM
At least in North Carolina as of 2018, in drivers' ed they teach you that on a road with three lanes going the same direction, the center lane is for thru travel, the left lane is for passing, and the right lane is for merging, exiting, or entering traffic. On a road with frequently merging traffic, or if you're going faster than the right lane I don't see it to be unreasonable to camp in the center lane.
Even if not, I really don't care so long as you're not blocking the left lane or doing something in the center lane which would impede traffic wanting to pass you from getting in the left lane. I guess it's sort of a grey area.
Out of the six New England states... only Maine (Title 29-A, Chapter 19, subchapter 1, §2052, section 6 (https://legislature.maine.gov/statutes/29-A/title29-Asec2052.html)) and Massachusetts (MGL Chapter 89 Section 4B (https://malegislature.gov/Laws/GeneralLaws/PartI/TitleXIV/Chapter89/Section4b)) have "keep all the way to the right, except to pass" laws, prohibiting left or centre lane hogging. In Maine, that law only applies if the roadway speed limit is 105 km/h (65 mph) or higher, whereas in Massachusetts it applies to any road type based on MGL.
In practice, both "keep ALL the way to the right" laws in MA/ME are really never enforced and are routinely violated. I don't know what's taught in driver's ed in Massachusetts about lane discipline, but at least in Maine, driver's ed tought us that the middle lane(s) is usually the smoothest if there are 3+ lanes are going in one directon, in contrast to what state law says as quoted below in the drivers manual:
Quote from: Maine Motorist Handbook, pages 6-8 and 6-9Use of Lanes
Lanes for Through Traffic: If there are three or more lanes going in one direction, the middle lane, or lanes, is usually the smoothest. The left lane is for drivers who want to pass or turn left. The right lane is used by drivers who go slower or who are entering or turning off the road.
Despite the laws in both MA and ME saying drivers should keep to the right, it doesn't say what a driver should do if other drivers fail to keep to the right; ergo, it doesn't outlaw passing on the right (undertaking). To my knowledge, all six of the New England states permit undertaking on most multi-lane highways.
In Massachusetts, I'm curious to how their "keep ALL the way to the right" law applies on sections of I-93 and Route 3 where breakdown lane travel is permitted during specified times of the day to increase capacity. Only ask as every time I drive on 93 in that section during PM rush hour... the lane discipline is unbalanced where the left/middle lane is slow and the right and breakdown lanes are actually moving faster. I wouldn't think it would apply there since that lane is "designated for purposes other than ordinary travel", and especially since trucks are prohibited from using that lane when active.
Quote from: fwydriver405 on October 18, 2023, 05:00:54 PM
Despite the laws in both MA and ME saying drivers should keep to the right, it doesn't say what a driver should do if other drivers fail to keep to the right; ergo, it doesn't outlaw passing on the right (undertaking). To my knowledge, all six of the New England states permit undertaking on most multi-lane highways.
I'm not aware of
any state that prohibits using the right lane to pass someone.
Quote from: kphoger on October 18, 2023, 05:40:12 PM
Quote from: fwydriver405 on October 18, 2023, 05:00:54 PM
Despite the laws in both MA and ME saying drivers should keep to the right, it doesn't say what a driver should do if other drivers fail to keep to the right; ergo, it doesn't outlaw passing on the right (undertaking). To my knowledge, all six of the New England states permit undertaking on most multi-lane highways.
I'm not aware of any state that prohibits using the right lane to pass someone.
Somebody told me Vermont prohibited it, however, a quick search on VT law (https://legislature.vermont.gov/statutes/section/23/013/01034) shows it is permitted under the usual circumstances.
Quote from: tmoore952 on October 18, 2023, 04:19:00 PM
Quote from: webny99 on October 18, 2023, 03:13:26 PM
The problem is when this mindset is applied to rural six-lane freeways, which are increasing in number across the country. These freeways don't necessarily have frequent exits and are heavily used by long-distance traffic. They can be frustrating to drive when KRETP is not adhered to, because they're so busy that a single passing lane is not sufficient, so lineups form on the left while large sporadic gaps form on the right. This makes cruise-setting all but impossible.
Some examples include much of the Ohio Turnpike, I-71 between Cleveland and Columbus, I-75 south of Atlanta, I-84 between Hartford and the Mass Pike, I-95 between Baltimore and Wilmington, the aforementioned QEW between Hamilton and Niagara Falls, and ON 400 between Vaughan and Barrie.
I'm not sure I would refer to I-95 between Baltimore and Wilmington as rural. That's the only interstate between those two cities (for 95% of that distance, between Baltimore and I-295 interchange), and it serves the entire I-95 corridor traffic. When you get to the Wilmington-Trenton axis, you have three and/or four limited access highways serving that corridor (I-95, I-495 in Delaware only, I-295 and the NJ Turnpike). But down there, it's the only one. I used to drive from DC to Wilmington often to visit family, and I would avoid I-95 most of the time because if something happened on it, there is no good alternative. My go-to alternative actually was US 1 north of Baltimore (and then cut south at Kennett Square), not US 40.
When I did venture to drive that stretch of I-95, I used to stay in the right lane all the time and I still got scared s***less more than I care to mention because of crazy passing and much-too-high speeds.
The word "rural" to me suggests something like central Illinois, although I know that's not what you meant.
It doesn't matter how much traffic uses it. For example: I-95 between Richmond and Fredericksburg carries over 100,000 AADT, is 6 lanes wide, and often time has congestion especially during peak weekends. It's the only freeway between the two points.
But, it's most certainly, unquestionably a rural interstate highway. Exits are several miles apart and there's not much development. Sure, there's several travel plazas / gas stations, fast food restaurants, and even hotels surrounding some of the interchanges. But if you travel a mile away from the interstate, you're in the middle of nowhere or in some small town. The same applies for some parts between Wilmington and Baltimore.
It can carry heavy traffic but still traverse a rural area.
Quote from: sprjus4 on October 18, 2023, 06:20:51 PM
Quote from: tmoore952 on October 18, 2023, 04:19:00 PM
Quote from: webny99 on October 18, 2023, 03:13:26 PM
The problem is when this mindset is applied to rural six-lane freeways, which are increasing in number across the country. These freeways don't necessarily have frequent exits and are heavily used by long-distance traffic. They can be frustrating to drive when KRETP is not adhered to, because they're so busy that a single passing lane is not sufficient, so lineups form on the left while large sporadic gaps form on the right. This makes cruise-setting all but impossible.
Some examples include much of the Ohio Turnpike, I-71 between Cleveland and Columbus, I-75 south of Atlanta, I-84 between Hartford and the Mass Pike, I-95 between Baltimore and Wilmington, the aforementioned QEW between Hamilton and Niagara Falls, and ON 400 between Vaughan and Barrie.
I'm not sure I would refer to I-95 between Baltimore and Wilmington as rural. That's the only interstate between those two cities (for 95% of that distance, between Baltimore and I-295 interchange), and it serves the entire I-95 corridor traffic. When you get to the Wilmington-Trenton axis, you have three and/or four limited access highways serving that corridor (I-95, I-495 in Delaware only, I-295 and the NJ Turnpike). But down there, it's the only one. I used to drive from DC to Wilmington often to visit family, and I would avoid I-95 most of the time because if something happened on it, there is no good alternative. My go-to alternative actually was US 1 north of Baltimore (and then cut south at Kennett Square), not US 40.
When I did venture to drive that stretch of I-95, I used to stay in the right lane all the time and I still got scared s***less more than I care to mention because of crazy passing and much-too-high speeds.
The word "rural" to me suggests something like central Illinois, although I know that's not what you meant.
It doesn't matter how much traffic uses it. For example: I-95 between Richmond and Fredericksburg carries over 100,000 AADT, is 6 lanes wide, and often time has congestion especially during peak weekends. It's the only freeway between the two points.
But, it's most certainly, unquestionably a rural interstate highway. Exits are several miles apart and there's not much development. Sure, there's several travel plazas / gas stations, fast food restaurants, and even hotels surrounding some of the interchanges. But if you travel a mile away from the interstate, you're in the middle of nowhere or in some small town. The same applies for some parts between Wilmington and Baltimore.
It can carry heavy traffic but still traverse a rural area.
More true for the Maryland portion of that stretch than the Delaware portion.
I keep forgetting that there may be metrics that a part of these definitions.
By that definition there are a lot of rural interstate highways, although only a subset are three-lane ones.
To go back to the original point, my many experiences driving between Baltimore and Wilmington lead me to believe that you will never see KRETP work there, even if it is against the law. Too many people will disregard it, and the police can only do so much.
I think this is mostly a perceptual issue than a habitual one; much like left-lane hogging, a center lane is probably tied up by one or two drivers for a given congested segment of road, rather than multiple drivers. If the traffic in that lane is at the speed limit or greater, as the left lane is open, then I don't really see the problem. The road and its drivers are effectively doing their jobs. Some scenarios where I do this, if it can be called "camping"...
Scenario 1: exits every mile or so, lots of entering/exiting traffic, and moving out of the lanes constantly not only impedes the flow of the center lane, it holds up the flow of the rightmost lane. To stay away from of the traffic that has not yet reached the speed limit (or is decelerating to exit), staying in the middle lane(s) makes sense, so as long as the left lane can flow freely.
Scenario 2: numerous slow drivers and vehicles under speed limit in the right lane, drivers would opt for the middle lane to keep at or just above the speed limit, otherwise the ideal of "passing on the left then returning to the right" turns into more of a constant "brake, accelerate, swerve, and slalom" which is entirely disruptive to other traffic. Works best if the left lane is more or less open; maybe a little less than half of the traffic count in the leftmost lane from the one just to the right of it.
Scenario 3: drivers in the left lane are too fast/slow but right lane is way too slow, and my exit isn't coming up for 3-10 miles. I'll just stay put if we're passing calmly; in an ideal world...I'd be in the left lane but for some reason a third of the motorists didn't get the memo (left exits, maybe?).
This all breaks down when too much traffic takes up the left lane, or someone's speed is below the limits in the left lane. Or if one jackass is insistent on speeds much higher than everyone else's speeds; it's not everyone else's job to just temporarily evaporate from the road because somebody has found themselves in the oh-so unique situation of running late for an appointment.
Another example that grates my carrot is when exiting HOV traffic (legally) dumps into the center lane (or the lane just left of center) and slows down those lanes, which cramps up all sorts of traffic expectations; center becomes faster or the lane nearest to the right lane becomes a de facto passing lane, et cetera. Seems like a whole other thread, though.
I thought some states considered passing on the right reckless driving. That wasn't the case in MD?
Also, isn't there some passing law in the UK about their equivalent?
Quote from: Rothman on October 18, 2023, 07:59:13 PM
Also, isn't there some passing law in the UK about their equivalent?
From this relic thread: https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=2388.0
Passing on the right not allowed in Europe (including the Autobahn)
I don't have any problem with center lane camping, since the right lane usually is for entering and exiting traffic, and the left lane is still used for passing. But then, when you bump it up to four lanes each way (or more), the situation becomes even murkier, as it's all a matter of which lanes are designated as passing lanes (left half), and which are the slow ones (right half). Good luck trying to navigate on the Dan Ryan Expressway, the Capital Beltway, Atlanta's Downtown Connector, any of the various L.A. freeways, or the Katy Freeway!
Quote from: Big John on October 18, 2023, 08:32:51 PM
Quote from: Rothman on October 18, 2023, 07:59:13 PM
Also, isn't there some passing law in the UK about their equivalent?
From this relic thread: https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=2388.0
Passing on the right not allowed in Europe (including the Autobahn)
The way I see it, in countries where all driving is on the left side (i.e. UK), it would be illegal to pass on the left.
Quote from: webny99 on October 18, 2023, 03:13:26 PM
When I did venture to drive that stretch of I-95, I used to stay in the right lane all the time and I still got scared s***less more than I care to mention because of crazy passing and much-too-high speeds.
The absolute insanity of driving up north is why I continually stick to the right lane there. I don't even bother trying to pass unless it's a semi, then I'll gun it and get ahead as fast as possible. Even then I get tailgated. It seems letting people in to merge upsets others often. Sometimes you kind of have to muscle your way in because nobody will let you in if you're the one merging so I like to give people a break from the utter, byzantine stupidity that is northern driving.
It is especially awful to me because essentially the entire time I've been driving regularly, it's been two-lane mountain roads. Freeways up north are worlds apart from what I'm used to.
^^^^
There seems to be an attitude in parts of the Northeast that a lane change somehow doesn't "count" unless you get in front of someone. I regularly see people who have half a mile of clear space to get over to exit, but there's a car up ahead in that lane, so they will speed up to pass that car and then cut over at the last second instead of just using all the empty space.
Quote from: 1995hoo on October 19, 2023, 09:06:51 AM
^^^^
There seems to be an attitude in parts of the Northeast that a lane change somehow doesn't "count" unless you get in front of someone. I regularly see people who have half a mile of clear space to get over to exit, but there's a car up ahead in that lane, so they will speed up to pass that car and then cut over at the last second instead of just using all the empty space.
Better to stay at the same speed or speed up than slow down.
Quote from: Rothman on October 19, 2023, 09:09:22 AM
Quote from: 1995hoo on October 19, 2023, 09:06:51 AM
^^^^
There seems to be an attitude in parts of the Northeast that a lane change somehow doesn't "count" unless you get in front of someone. I regularly see people who have half a mile of clear space to get over to exit, but there's a car up ahead in that lane, so they will speed up to pass that car and then cut over at the last second instead of just using all the empty space.
Better to stay at the same speed or speed up than slow down.
But if you're going to have to slow down to take the exit anyway, it doesn't make sense to me to speed up bigtime just to cut someone off and then have to slam on the brakes to haul your speed back down for the exit ramp.
Quote from: 1995hoo on October 19, 2023, 09:12:35 AM
Quote from: Rothman on October 19, 2023, 09:09:22 AM
Quote from: 1995hoo on October 19, 2023, 09:06:51 AM
^^^^
There seems to be an attitude in parts of the Northeast that a lane change somehow doesn't "count" unless you get in front of someone. I regularly see people who have half a mile of clear space to get over to exit, but there's a car up ahead in that lane, so they will speed up to pass that car and then cut over at the last second instead of just using all the empty space.
Better to stay at the same speed or speed up than slow down.
But if you're going to have to slow down to take the exit anyway, it doesn't make sense to me to speed up bigtime just to cut someone off and then have to slam on the brakes to haul your speed back down for the exit ramp.
If they're exiting, too, then I'll be ahead of a car that was probably travelling slower in the right lane. Better to pass them now than be stuck behind them on a two-lane road.
Quote from: index on October 19, 2023, 08:58:05 AM
Quote from: webny99 on October 18, 2023, 03:13:26 PM
When I did venture to drive that stretch of I-95, I used to stay in the right lane all the time and I still got scared s***less more than I care to mention because of crazy passing and much-too-high speeds.
The absolute insanity of driving up north is why I continually stick to the right lane there. I don't even bother trying to pass unless it's a semi, then I'll gun it and get ahead as fast as possible. Even then I get tailgated. It seems letting people in to merge upsets others often. Sometimes you kind of have to muscle your way in because nobody will let you in if you're the one merging so I like to give people a break from the utter, byzantine stupidity that is northern driving.
It is especially awful to me because essentially the entire time I've been driving regularly, it's been two-lane mountain roads. Freeways up north are worlds apart from what I'm used to.
Agreed that this is a problem in the northeast, but the quote isn't from me, it's from
tmoore952.
Quote from: formulanone on October 18, 2023, 07:45:53 PM
Scenario 1:
I'm going to break this one down in detail.
Quote from: formulanone on October 18, 2023, 07:45:53 PM
exits every mile or so, lots of entering/exiting traffic
OK, so I'm already envisioning an urban environment with heavy traffic. So I'm already more prepared to admit that keeping out of the right lane is necessary.
Quote from: formulanone on October 18, 2023, 07:45:53 PM
and moving out of the lanes constantly not only impedes the flow of the center lane,
It shouldn't impede the flow of the center lane much more than
having stayed in it all along would impede it. Either the left lane is clear enough for faster traffic to get around you, or there isn't—whether you were camping in it or recently changed lanes into it. If changing into the center lane impedes the traffic there, then obviously they're driving faster than you are, so camping in front of them instead would impede them just as much.
Quote from: formulanone on October 18, 2023, 07:45:53 PM
it holds up the flow of the rightmost lane.
It can hold up the usefulness of the rightmost lane for exiting and entering traffic. If exits are so closely spaced and traffic is so thick for this to happen, then the right lane is essentially functioning as an accel/decel lane. I'm assuming this is what you mean by "flow of the rightmost lane". But, if not, if you're really meaning the flow of through-traffic in the rightmost lane, then I don't follow.
Quote from: formulanone on October 18, 2023, 07:45:53 PM
To stay away from of the traffic that has not yet reached the speed limit (or is decelerating to exit), staying in the middle lane(s) makes sense
See above. If traffic is heavy enough for this to matter, then the right lane has essentially become a
de facto accel/decel lane.
Quote from: formulanone on October 18, 2023, 07:45:53 PM
so as long as the left lane can flow freely
And as long as the center lane can also flow halfway freely. If I want to drive 60 mph, exiting/entering traffic is doing 50 mph, but there are two lanes' worth of traffic wanting to go 70 mph, then maybe I should just suck it up and go 50 mph in order for all those other people to not be stuck behind me.
Quote from: kphoger on October 19, 2023, 10:20:36 AM
Quote from: formulanone on October 18, 2023, 07:45:53 PM
so as long as the left lane can flow freely
And as long as the center lane can also flow halfway freely. If I want to drive 60 mph, exiting/entering traffic is doing 50 mph, but there are two lanes' worth of traffic wanting to go 70 mph, then maybe I should just suck it up and go 50 mph in order for all those other people to not be stuck behind me.
Quote from: kphoger on October 19, 2023, 10:20:36 AM
Quote from: formulanone on October 18, 2023, 07:45:53 PM
It can hold up the usefulness of the rightmost lane for exiting and entering traffic. If exits are so closely spaced and traffic is so thick for this to happen, then the right lane is essentially functioning as an accel/decel lane. I'm assuming this is what you mean by "flow of the rightmost lane".
Yeah, that.
Eh, there's a nuanced difference between two lanes wanting to go 70, but my experience is sometimes that it's not always both lanes, but someone passing on the right who really wants to do 75. Or someone trying to make their way from right to left into the leftmost lane. I don't think there's an exact right or wrong; at some point, some sort of traffic-per-lane density is too high and most drivers will flow to the lane that moves the freest / calmest / safest, or needing the one closest to the exit.
I do recall driver's ed and driver's re-education classes whereby they suggest staying in the middle lane in the case of six-lane surface streets, so I think that's a natural safety zone that people find.
Personally, I don't like holding up traffic and typically travel at or just above the speed limits. And I don't think I see this anywhere near as irritating as the typically 4-lane with holdups in the left. Too many different scenarios, honestly. Everyone's going to paint an exact picture and use it as a gotcha.
Quote from: formulanone on October 19, 2023, 11:02:38 AM
at some point, some sort of traffic-per-lane density is too high and most drivers will flow to the lane that moves the freest / calmest / safest, or needing the one closest to the exit.
In a true traffic jam, where the flow is 20 mph or whatever, my general practice is to just stay in my lane as long as possible—no matter which lane it is—and to change lanes as little as possible. I only change lanes if I've observed for quite a while that the other lane is truly going to be faster, and not just useful for a brief bunny-hop ahead of six vehicles. I think jams would be alleviated if everyone did that.
Quote from: kphoger on October 19, 2023, 11:21:26 AM
Quote from: formulanone on October 19, 2023, 11:02:38 AM
at some point, some sort of traffic-per-lane density is too high and most drivers will flow to the lane that moves the freest / calmest / safest, or needing the one closest to the exit.
In a true traffic jam, where the flow is 20 mph or whatever, my general practice is to just stay in my lane as long as possible—no matter which lane it is—and to change lanes as little as possible. I only change lanes if I've observed for quite a while that the other lane is truly going to be faster, and not just useful for a brief bunny-hop ahead of six vehicles. I think jams would be alleviated if everyone did that.
I am guilty of bunny-hopping. While recognized that high volumes of lane-changing drivers can contribute to congestion, I have too little tolerance for time waste to sit in a slower lane if there's an opening in another one. At the same time, I make a concerted effort not to brake while changing lanes
or while driving in the same lane, if at all possible.
I usually stay in one of the middle lanes to leave the left side of the road open but not be caught behind entering and exiting traffic. But I'm also usually going at or above the speed of traffic flow when in any lane other than the far right one. Staying in the right lane on urban highways is usually a guarantee that you will have to change lanes dozens of more times anyway.
Quote from: DriverDave on October 19, 2023, 12:04:38 PM
Staying in the right lane on urban highways is usually a guarantee that you will have to change lanes dozens of more times anyway.
Unless changing lanes all those times actually impedes the flow of traffic, what's wrong with changing lanes more often?
Just more annoying to constantly have to go back and forth. Besides with all the left lane campers the middle lane ends up being the fastest lane anyway a good amount of the time. It's also good to have a lane on each side to be able to move to if sometimes happens ahead in your lane.
Quote from: DriverDave on October 19, 2023, 12:20:18 PM
Just more annoying ...
If this is how you decide how to drive, then I'm not going to be convinced by what you say.
Well it does also impede traffic flow somewhat to constantly have to accelerate again into faster traffic, everytime you move out of the right lane. It's easier to just stay in the lane that already has the smooth traffic flow.
Quote
I don't have any problem with center lane camping, since the right lane usually is for entering and exiting traffic, and the left lane is still used for passing. But then, when you bump it up to four lanes each way (or more), the situation becomes even murkier, as it's all a matter of which lanes are designated as passing lanes (left half), and which are the slow ones (right half). Good luck trying to navigate on the Dan Ryan Expressway, the Capital Beltway, Atlanta's Downtown Connector, any of the various L.A. freeways, or the Katy Freeway!
There are no lanes 'designated' as passing lanes. The proper method is to keep right if you're a slower driver, and pass on the left as needed then merge back over. People that claim the center lane(s) are the normal driving lanes are often holding up traffic behind them.
If you're on a 3 lane highway, the center lane is the trucker's passing lane. If you're driving a speed that's holding them up, you're just as guilty as a left lane hog. On a 4+ lane highway, there's no reason to just cruise the left-center lane at a slower than average speed, unless you just feel that only one lane should be used for passing.
People often talk about the right lane as having too many on/off ramps. Other than in rare cases, normally in cities, exits are spaced about 3 miles apart from each other. If everyone claimed they don't drive the right lane because of access points, then that would limit the highway to two travel lanes.
So, people that claim they don't drive right lane are doing it because they don't care about the flow of traffic. They care about themselves. They don't care that there's 50 cars behind them, many trying to get to the left lane to pass them. They get even angrier when traffic passes them on the right, because it's their belief they should only pass them on the left.
Quote from: DriverDave on October 19, 2023, 12:04:38 PM
I usually stay in one of the middle lanes to leave the left side of the road open but not be caught behind entering and exiting traffic. But I'm also usually going at or above the speed of traffic flow when in any lane other than the far right one. Staying in the right lane on urban highways is usually a guarantee that you will have to change lanes dozens of more times anyway.
How many exits are normally found in urban areas? Maybe 6 within the city, maybe around 10 including the nearby suburbs. If you're changing lanes "dozens" of times, you must have the unlucky ability to not only find people driving slowly in the right lane at every off and on ramp, but also found numerous additional on and off ramps that don't exist.
Quote from: DriverDave on October 19, 2023, 12:31:34 PM
Well it does also impede traffic flow somewhat to constantly have to accelerate again into faster traffic, every time you move out of the right lane. It's easier to just stay in the lane that already has the smooth traffic flow.
In other words, if you're driving slower than everyone else, you're the unwanted smooth traffic flow because you're going slower than everyone else, forcing everyone behind you to switch lanes.
Quote from: DriverDave on October 19, 2023, 12:31:34 PM
Well it does also impede traffic flow somewhat to constantly have to accelerate again into faster traffic, everytime you move out of the right lane. It's easier to just stay in the lane that already has the smooth traffic flow.
Most of my daily commute is on six-lane freeways with closely spaced exits. I've hardly ever "had to accelerate" when moving out of the right lane. If I see an entering vehicle, I simply change lanes at the same speed I was already going.
QuoteIn other words, if you're driving slower than everyone else, you're the unwanted smooth traffic flow because you're going slower than everyone else, forcing everyone behind you to switch lanes.
I was saying the opposite. If I am going with faster traffic flow in the middle lanes to begin with, and decide to "keep right" because the right lane happened to be open at that point. Then have to slow down because of slower merging traffic in the right lane, now I have to merge back into the faster traffic in the middle lanes to pass them. It makes more sense to just stay in the middle lane if you are not already going slower than traffic. It's also more like 3/4 to 1 mile in between urban exits, not 3 miles.
Quote from: DriverDave on October 19, 2023, 01:03:53 PM
It makes more sense to just stay in the middle lane if you are not already going slower than traffic.
If nobody is going faster than you, then there's nobody to complain about your lane choice. Which is why I originally said...
Quote from: kphoger on October 18, 2023, 02:58:16 PM
With rare exceptions, if someone passes you in the right lane, then you shouldn't have been in the center lane.
Quote from: kphoger on October 19, 2023, 01:08:08 PM
Quote from: DriverDave on October 19, 2023, 01:03:53 PM
It makes more sense to just stay in the middle lane if you are not already going slower than traffic.
If nobody is going faster than you, then there's nobody to complain about your lane choice. Which is why I originally said...
Quote from: kphoger on October 18, 2023, 02:58:16 PM
With rare exceptions, if someone passes you in the right lane, then you shouldn't have been in the center lane.
Keep right except to pass. Yes. You.
All I'm saying is that, if a tree falls in the forest...
I was taught that in a 3 or more lane roadway outside the city center that the far left lane was for passing only and the far right lane was for exiting and entering the freeway. The right lane was also for any traffic going significantly slower than the inner lanes. THat would put most of the traffic in the interior lanes. That is pretty much how I drive it EXCEPT for three lane freeway when there is a prohibition for heavy trucks in the far left lane. In this case, I drive it like a 2x2 and keep to the extreme right as heavy trucks can only pass in the middle lane.
I usually stick it out in the middle lane because, like bwana39 said, traffic is often merging into the right lane. If you stay in the right lane you will get stuck behind people still going the speed of the frontage road (like 45mph), and you will have to deal with other vehicles merging from onramps. I say if you are going around the speed limit, using the middle lane is fine, and use left lane to pass.
Quote from: BJ59 on November 15, 2023, 08:39:30 PM
I usually stick it out in the middle lane because, like bwana39 said, traffic is often merging into the right lane. If you stay in the right lane you will get stuck behind people still going the speed of the frontage road (like 45mph), and you will have to deal with other vehicles merging from onramps. I say if you are going around the speed limit, using the middle lane is fine, and use left lane to pass.
Frontage roads aren't that common in much of the country. Nobody is disputing this when traffic is heavy and exits are frequent, but there are plenty of six lane freeways where neither is true.
Quote from: webny99 on November 15, 2023, 08:59:52 PM
Quote from: BJ59 on November 15, 2023, 08:39:30 PM
I usually stick it out in the middle lane because, like bwana39 said, traffic is often merging into the right lane. If you stay in the right lane you will get stuck behind people still going the speed of the frontage road (like 45mph), and you will have to deal with other vehicles merging from onramps. I say if you are going around the speed limit, using the middle lane is fine, and use left lane to pass.
Frontage roads aren't that common in much of the country. Nobody is disputing this when traffic is heavy and exits are frequent, but there are plenty of six lane freeways where neither is true.
Like I-87 between Exits 15 and 16 in New York. 15 miles between exits and people going 60 in the center lane. :pan:
Quote from: webny99 on November 15, 2023, 08:59:52 PM
Nobody is disputing this when traffic is heavy and exits are frequent, but there are plenty of six lane freeways where neither is true.
Precisely.
People seem to be taking the approach,
I don't use the right lane just in case someone slower might show up there later. That's just lazy and entitled.
Interstate 94 between Milwaukee and Deerfield, IL is 8 lanes (2 x 4 lanes) and I can't tell you how often I see semis hogging up the three right lanes. In fact, this am, at one point near Racine there were semis jamming up all four! Fortunately there was a little space between them and I could play real-life Frogger and get around the obstruction. But here you have these truckers going on about how they're "professional drivers" and so much better than the rest of us, yet many apparently get the memo about that whole "the left lanes are for faster traffic" thing.
It's bad enough that Clem the Packer fan from Menomonee Falls stubbornly sits his ass in the far left lane doing 65, but truckers should know better.
As a Class A CDL holder I can tell you that thru semi truck drivers are trained to stay one lane left of the right lane in the cities so that we aren't constantly dealing with merging traffic from the on ramps. On city streets / highways that are three lanes each direction I also usually stay in the center, because I never know when the right lane may suddenly end without any warning and I also don't have to deal with people turning into businesses, side streets, etc. I might adjust my driving if most people in urban areas actually respected trucks and didn't try to cut us off all the time because they don't want us to be "in their way".