The Credit Card Competition Act aims to force banks to issue cards with a second network option, thereby eliminating the dominance of MasterCard and Visa. In practice this has a good chance of reducing interchange and killing rewards cards the way the Durbin amendment killed rewards for debit cards. :pan:
Not sure if this actually has a chance of being passed, but this is the second year they have tried.
Uh...I get rewards on my debit card... It's not a federally-chartered bank, though, so that might be why.
Rewards card programs strike me as gimmicky, because there's nothing to guarantee the future value of the rewards.
My Southwest Airlines card (with Chase) gives me 2x points on most hotel purchases (direct with the hotel, not with an agency like Priceline) and also rental cars (again, direct, not through an agency). At the current rate of 1 Southwest point = $0.015 in Southwest Airlines fare, that's a pretty good 3% rebate. Nothing stops Southwest from changing the 1 point = $0.015 exchange rate though. If they were to cut it in half to 1 point = $0.0075 then my 3% rebate becomes 1.5%. Blah. Also, to realize the full value I have to use my points on Southwest airfare; other redemption options such as using Southwest points for hotel stays have an exchange rate quite a bit lower than 1 point = $0.015.
Nevada's Congressional representation appears to be leaning against the legislation, because a lot of people use those travel rewards to take trips to Vegas. I don't have a strong viewpoint either way. If rewards are drastically reduced or eliminated I'll just take another look at the available credit card options and make a new selection.
I support the bill. Businesses are currently losing about 3% to credit card fees. For a small business, this could easily kill it if it's not doing well to begin with.
The problem with the Durbin amendment for debit is that it set a minimum fee of 21¢, which was an increase for small purchases rather than a decrease. This new bill would not have that problem, as it's not setting the cost itself.
Quote from: 1 on October 19, 2023, 07:29:55 AM
I support the bill. Businesses are currently losing about 3% to credit card fees. For a small business, this could easily kill it if it's not doing well to begin with.
If it's not doing well, does it deserve to survive?
More to the point, a large business has more wherewithal to absorb a 3% loss than a smaller one does, simply because a larger business is going to profit more due to economies of scale. A smaller business may just have to raise their prices by 3% to pass the cost on, which will probably make their prices less competitive. So if the intent is to encourage entrepreneurship by regular people, then reducing dead-weight cost-of-doing-business fees like this one will help with that. On the other hand, if your goal is to consolidate market share to the tie wearers, then leaving it in place is an excellent idea.
There is a reason that little hole in the wall restaurants are often cash only.
I like credit card rewards and aggressively try to maximize my use of them and will be sad if they go.
That said I philosophically support getting rid of them- they're a regressive tax of sorts that allow people who are pretty well off to get perks largely made possible by people with worse credit scores and that doesn't seem right.
Quote from: 1 on October 19, 2023, 07:29:55 AM
I support the bill. Businesses are currently losing about 3% to credit card fees. For a small business, this could easily kill it if it's not doing well to begin with.
No. Businesses incorporate most of the 3% into the price of their goods. They know the approximate amount people will buy with cards and cash. Just like they incorporate every other expense, they're not going to intentionally lose money on lighting, advertising, rent, water, employee salaries, taxes, landscaping, signage, shelving, air conditioning, exterminating, fire inspections, mailings, training, education, bank fees, subscriptions, health insurance, payroll taxes, building and property insurance, legal fees, travel, donations, computer hardware and software, and more.
When businesses charge the customer the 3% separately for using a card, they're just adding on to their bottom line because they can, and an insignificant amount of people switch their payment choice. That expense was already factored in to the product's cost.
Even if the Act is signed into law, what actually happens and when it happens will be vastly different from what the law says. The banking industry obviously has tremendous influence, not only with bailouts and such but also over operational regulations, with the result that many aspects of U.S. banking (e.g. same-day electronic transfers, availability of deposited funds, loan servicing) are behind those of other countries with respect to customer servicing. The credit card industry as well, at least to some extent. I've no doubt any action would be significantly blunted compared to what the law says.
Spend more money and save!
I see rewards programs as goading people into spending money they don't have on shit they don't need in exchange for "Disney Bucks" that the credit card companies have absolute dominion over.
So I could care less about a few people's airline miles Camel Cash.
The key to credit card rewards is knowing which ones actually make sense for you to pursue and which ones are just blindly pursuing "rewards" that won't do you any good. I keep getting e-mail solicitations for the Southwest credit card, but I don't fly Southwest very often—maybe once a year—so it doesn't make sense for me.
Interestingly, I first heard about this bill about a month or two ago via a TV commercial saying to oppose the bill. It felt like something I should support, so I looked at it in detail and decided to support it.
- How is this not "politics"?
- Anyway, the basic goal of this bill is to reduce the processing fees businesses pay. Put simply, if a business takes in $100 in credit card "money" the bank will credit its account with $97 and send the rest to Visa/MC/Etc.
- The credit card industry has seized upon the "rewards" programs. Again, simply, the credit card processors, flush with that 3% vig, uses a tiny fraction of it for "rewards" which can be cash back, airline miles, even green stamps like shopping. That is a side issue and not the point of the bill.
- Properly managed, "rewards" cards can be a Life Pro Tip. Pick something you like, say air travel but it can be whatever. Charge EVERYTHING, let the points pile up and end up with a free trip (or whatever) for money you would have spent anyway.
- This has, of course, nothing to do with "small business" versus "big companies". The vig (no knitpicking) is more or less the same. Take in $10,000, the vig is 3%; take in $10M, the vig is 3%. Whenever anti-business politicians start talking about "small business" and "big companies", you are being deceived.
Back in the mid 1990s when I worked at Chase in Wilmington, DE, I remember in one of our meetings they mentioned how they had several hundred people with Shell branded Chase cards, even though they didn't have a Shell station anywhere near them to utilize those points earned. Their marketing team did am advertising campaign to customers they noticed weren't using their points to encourage them to switch to another Chase credit card.
I used to play along with scammers on the phone. One time, I had the scammer convinced that I had a Disney Diners Club credit card. Unfortunately, when he then transferred my call up the chain to his scam-boss, that guy was not amused.
This entire Act seems like, well...an act. It's going to "create competition" but eventually it either 1) can't compete and withers away 2) gets merged due to success.
Whatever, we're going to secretly pay 105-110% of the difference either way.
Quote from: SP Cook on October 19, 2023, 09:57:11 AM
- How is this not "politics"?
I think so long as the discussion is about the economic and business impacts and how everyone feels about credit card rewards that is not "politics" except in the broadest sense. But that broadest sense would apply to a lot of other topics that are routine, so in my mind at least there is nothing inherently political about the subject.
Quote from: SP Cook on October 19, 2023, 09:57:11 AM
- This has, of course, nothing to do with "small business" versus "big companies". The vig (no knitpicking) is more or less the same. Take in $10,000, the vig is 3%; take in $10M, the vig is 3%. Whenever anti-business politicians start talking about "small business" and "big companies", you are being deceived.
This. :clap:
When the interchange fee is a % of revenues, it would seem that it does not matter how small or big the business is. I think there is probabally some nuance around larger institutions being able to negotiate for lower % fees but the idea that interchange strongly favors big business seems a bit far fetched.
It is worth noting that many small businesses, and a few large ones don't accept credit cards supposedly to avoid interchange fees. My theory is this is more due to small businesses being run by one or two decision makers who see the fees as a cost and balk at them without fully considering the opportunity costs of alternatives like cash.
And speaking of cash, one issue I find in some of the talk about this is how interchange fees subsidize some customers at the expense of others. I'm not entirely convinced that is what is happening in practice, at least not for everyone. I suspect the higher price, when paid by cash users, is actually partially offsetting the costs of cash, which has many hidden costs to a business. When the higher price is paid by credit card users, it covers interchange instead. It would seem debit card users are the ones most likely to actually subsidize rewards without standing to gain anything.
And speaking of rewards, I like them and would prefer they stay, but I wish there was a more road trip focused credit card on the market. Most "travel" cards are just airlines and some hotels, and are of relatively little use to a road warrior. I'm sure there are some store cards for gas stations that have a few perks, but what I really want is a good integrated card that pays high rewards on gas, hotels, attractions, and automotive gear. Some perks like free services at Sam's Club or Costco and maybe some lounge access would round out such a card nicely. :coffee:
At least when it comes to brick-and-mortar stores, I've seen $10 minimums for credit card purchases more often than outright cash-only policies.
HighwayStar, it sounds like what you might benefit from would be either a generic "points" card that lets you transfer the points to other programs (some American Express charge cards sound closest to what you have in mind) or a cash-back card.
Quote from: 1995hoo on October 19, 2023, 11:41:41 AM
HighwayStar, it sounds like what you might benefit from would be either a generic "points" card that lets you transfer the points to other programs (some American Express charge cards sound closest to what you have in mind) or a cash-back card.
I've taken a hybrid approach for the moment. This generates 5% back (in hotel points) on gas and Wyndham Group hotels and 3% cash back on restaurants on a separate card. That covers the main road trip expenses, but I would still be first in line if anyone issues a proper road warrior card. In the past I tended to disregard Amex due to patchy acceptance but it seems like they have become more widely accepted to maybe its time to revisit that assumption.
Quote from: jeffandnicole on October 19, 2023, 08:46:58 AM
When businesses charge the customer the 3% separately for using a card, they're just adding on to their bottom line because they can, and an insignificant amount of people switch their payment choice. That expense was already factored in to the product's cost.
The 3% additional charge is becoming more and more common at restaurants; I saw it both last night for dinner and this morning for breakfast. I haven't accepted the practice; I pass that charge right back to the server in the form of a reduced tip. A 20% intended tip on the pretax bill becomes closer to 16% because the 3% charge is applied to the sales tax as well. Is it "fair" that I make the server pay? Not really, but if management is adding this charge "because they can", I'm passing it on "because I can" as well.
Quote from: gonealookin on October 19, 2023, 11:48:05 AM
The 3% additional charge is becoming more and more common at restaurants; I saw it both last night for dinner and this morning for breakfast. I haven't accepted the practice; I pass that charge right back to the server in the form of a reduced tip. A 20% intended tip on the pretax bill becomes closer to 16% because the 3% charge is applied to the sales tax as well. Is it "fair" that I make the server pay? Not really, but if management is adding this charge "because they can", I'm passing it on "because I can" as well.
I have mixed feelings about this.
1. If the restaurant is passing the
cost on to you the customer in the form of a surcharge, then conceivably the restaurant could pass the newfound
savings on to the server in the form of a base pay raise. If they instead choose to use those savings in some other way, then that's on them, not you.
2. If the restaurant had increased the menu price instead of adding a surcharge, then you wouldn't even think twice about paying a higher tip. If you instead base your tip amount on the itemization of the bill rather than the total price, then that's on you, not them.
Quote from: gonealookin on October 19, 2023, 11:48:05 AM
Quote from: jeffandnicole on October 19, 2023, 08:46:58 AM
When businesses charge the customer the 3% separately for using a card, they're just adding on to their bottom line because they can, and an insignificant amount of people switch their payment choice. That expense was already factored in to the product's cost.
The 3% additional charge is becoming more and more common at restaurants; I saw it both last night for dinner and this morning for breakfast. I haven't accepted the practice; I pass that charge right back to the server in the form of a reduced tip. A 20% intended tip on the pretax bill becomes closer to 16% because the 3% charge is applied to the sales tax as well. Is it "fair" that I make the server pay? Not really, but if management is adding this charge "because they can", I'm passing it on "because I can" as well.
I've read a lot about this becoming common and still have not found one in the wild, I just consider myself lucky.
That said, I think your approach is the best one. Restaurants need to just incorporate rising costs into the menu prices. Adding a CC fee feels like a dishonest practice used to get you in the door with seemingly lower menu prices.
Regarding places that are "cash only" I suspect more than a few are doing it to under report income for tax purposes.
It comes down to how you conceptualize the fee. Is it (a) a cost of business that should be covered by the business's budget, but that now is being covered by the customer instead? Or is it (b) a normal price increase, such as happens all the time due to inflation and such, but that now is being itemized differently on your bill? In my opinion, it cannot be (b) if cash customers are still paying the old price.
I first started noticing this at gas stations, not restaurants: different prices per gallon for cash vs credit card customers. This is clearly passing along a cost of doing business to the customer, not just a price increase at the pump. Or is it? Without it, I suppose, the new price at the pump would simply be between the two instead.
How about this... Imagine a business in a place that has been hit hard by global warming. Their electricity bill has gone up dramatically due to increased a/c usage. How would you feel about a "climate change surcharge" on your bill?
Quote from: SP Cook on October 19, 2023, 09:57:11 AM
- How is this not "politics"?
It doesn't mention any individual politicians or political parties. That said, if it becomes rancorous and/or people start getting partisan in their replies, it will be locked. But so long as everyone is civil it is fine.
Quote from: HighwayStar on October 19, 2023, 12:05:17 PM
Quote from: gonealookin on October 19, 2023, 11:48:05 AM
Quote from: jeffandnicole on October 19, 2023, 08:46:58 AM
When businesses charge the customer the 3% separately for using a card, they're just adding on to their bottom line because they can, and an insignificant amount of people switch their payment choice. That expense was already factored in to the product's cost.
The 3% additional charge is becoming more and more common at restaurants; I saw it both last night for dinner and this morning for breakfast. I haven't accepted the practice; I pass that charge right back to the server in the form of a reduced tip. A 20% intended tip on the pretax bill becomes closer to 16% because the 3% charge is applied to the sales tax as well. Is it "fair" that I make the server pay? Not really, but if management is adding this charge "because they can", I'm passing it on "because I can" as well.
I've read a lot about this becoming common and still have not found one in the wild, I just consider myself lucky.
That said, I think your approach is the best one. Restaurants need to just incorporate rising costs into the menu prices. Adding a CC fee feels like a dishonest practice used to get you in the door with seemingly lower menu prices.
Deducting the cost of the credit card surcharge from the tip is silly—you are essentially taking 3% of the server's wage and giving it to management. Doubtful the server had anything to do with the credit card policy, so you're just kind of taking your frustration out on an innocent bystander and management gets their money either way. (And if your belief is that "restaurants need to just incorporate rising costs into the menu prices", then that should be true of the server's wages as well and tips should go away entirely.)
If you really want to protest the credit card fee, the most effective way to register your disapproval is to stop doing business with the restaurant, as that focuses the negative outcome more squarely on the person responsible for the policy.
Quote from: kphoger on October 19, 2023, 12:15:15 PM
How about this... Imagine a business in a place that has been hit hard by global warming. Their electricity bill has gone up dramatically due to increased a/c usage. How would you feel about a "climate change surcharge" on your bill?
I have seen an energy surcharge on hotel bills in the past.
Quote from: Scott5114 on October 19, 2023, 12:27:02 PM
If you really want to protest the credit card fee, the most effective way to register your disapproval is to stop doing business with the restaurant, as that focuses the negative outcome more squarely on the person responsible for the policy.
Wouldn't that affect the server even
more? Now you're not paying the tip
at all.
Quote from: Scott5114 on October 19, 2023, 12:27:02 PM
If you really want to protest the credit card fee, the most effective way to register your disapproval is to stop doing business with the restaurant, as that focuses the negative outcome more squarely on the person responsible for the policy.
Why wouldn't paying cash fix this?
Quote from: Big John on October 19, 2023, 12:29:08 PM
Quote from: kphoger on October 19, 2023, 12:15:15 PM
How about this... Imagine a business in a place that has been hit hard by global warming. Their electricity bill has gone up dramatically due to increased a/c usage. How would you feel about a "climate change surcharge" on your bill?
I have seen an energy surcharge on hotel bills in the past.
Now let's imagine a restaurant that has such an "energy surcharge". But diners who choose patio seating don't have to pay it.
Quote from: kphoger on October 19, 2023, 12:32:41 PM
Quote from: Scott5114 on October 19, 2023, 12:27:02 PM
If you really want to protest the credit card fee, the most effective way to register your disapproval is to stop doing business with the restaurant, as that focuses the negative outcome more squarely on the person responsible for the policy.
Wouldn't that affect the server even more? Now you're not paying the tip at all.
Yes, but the person with the ability to fix the problem now has an incentive to do so.
Quote from: 1 on October 19, 2023, 12:34:12 PM
Quote from: Scott5114 on October 19, 2023, 12:27:02 PM
If you really want to protest the credit card fee, the most effective way to register your disapproval is to stop doing business with the restaurant, as that focuses the negative outcome more squarely on the person responsible for the policy.
Why wouldn't paying cash fix this?
It depends on what your end goal is. If your goal is merely to not have to pay the fee yourself, then it's an acceptable solution. If your goal is to get the policy changed, it wouldn't be.
(Some people would object to this solution because they do not regularly carry cash and would thus have to make special arrangements to do so. And some people cannot access cash without incurring a fee, since their banks have no physical branches and cash can only be accessed from an ATM.)
Quote from: Scott5114 on October 19, 2023, 12:27:02 PM
Quote from: HighwayStar on October 19, 2023, 12:05:17 PM
Quote from: gonealookin on October 19, 2023, 11:48:05 AM
Quote from: jeffandnicole on October 19, 2023, 08:46:58 AM
When businesses charge the customer the 3% separately for using a card, they're just adding on to their bottom line because they can, and an insignificant amount of people switch their payment choice. That expense was already factored in to the product's cost.
The 3% additional charge is becoming more and more common at restaurants; I saw it both last night for dinner and this morning for breakfast. I haven't accepted the practice; I pass that charge right back to the server in the form of a reduced tip. A 20% intended tip on the pretax bill becomes closer to 16% because the 3% charge is applied to the sales tax as well. Is it "fair" that I make the server pay? Not really, but if management is adding this charge "because they can", I'm passing it on "because I can" as well.
I've read a lot about this becoming common and still have not found one in the wild, I just consider myself lucky.
That said, I think your approach is the best one. Restaurants need to just incorporate rising costs into the menu prices. Adding a CC fee feels like a dishonest practice used to get you in the door with seemingly lower menu prices.
Deducting the cost of the credit card surcharge from the tip is silly—you are essentially taking 3% of the server's wage and giving it to management. Doubtful the server had anything to do with the credit card policy, so you're just kind of taking your frustration out on an innocent bystander and management gets their money either way. (And if your belief is that "restaurants need to just incorporate rising costs into the menu prices", then that should be true of the server's wages as well and tips should go away entirely.)
If you really want to protest the credit card fee, the most effective way to register your disapproval is to stop doing business with the restaurant, as that focuses the negative outcome more squarely on the person responsible for the policy.
Those actions are not mutually exclusive and presented with such a fee I would do both. However tips do serve to signal information, and if servers are repeatedly being hit with low tips after the fee is instituted that should come to the notice of management. Also servers are less willing to work in an establishment with policies that result in poor tipping. The fact that I would also refuse to go back is part of the fairness to the server, I'm not going to repeatedly short change them. I think the "just don't go there" is a fine practice, but with restaurants sometimes the fee is not disclosed until you have already been seated and are getting ready to order, so its a bit harder to avoid them in the first place.
Quote from: HighwayStar on October 19, 2023, 12:51:39 PM
Quote from: Scott5114 on October 19, 2023, 12:27:02 PM
Quote from: HighwayStar on October 19, 2023, 12:05:17 PM
Quote from: gonealookin on October 19, 2023, 11:48:05 AM
Quote from: jeffandnicole on October 19, 2023, 08:46:58 AM
When businesses charge the customer the 3% separately for using a card, they're just adding on to their bottom line because they can, and an insignificant amount of people switch their payment choice. That expense was already factored in to the product's cost.
The 3% additional charge is becoming more and more common at restaurants; I saw it both last night for dinner and this morning for breakfast. I haven't accepted the practice; I pass that charge right back to the server in the form of a reduced tip. A 20% intended tip on the pretax bill becomes closer to 16% because the 3% charge is applied to the sales tax as well. Is it "fair" that I make the server pay? Not really, but if management is adding this charge "because they can", I'm passing it on "because I can" as well.
I've read a lot about this becoming common and still have not found one in the wild, I just consider myself lucky.
That said, I think your approach is the best one. Restaurants need to just incorporate rising costs into the menu prices. Adding a CC fee feels like a dishonest practice used to get you in the door with seemingly lower menu prices.
Deducting the cost of the credit card surcharge from the tip is silly—you are essentially taking 3% of the server's wage and giving it to management. Doubtful the server had anything to do with the credit card policy, so you're just kind of taking your frustration out on an innocent bystander and management gets their money either way. (And if your belief is that "restaurants need to just incorporate rising costs into the menu prices", then that should be true of the server's wages as well and tips should go away entirely.)
If you really want to protest the credit card fee, the most effective way to register your disapproval is to stop doing business with the restaurant, as that focuses the negative outcome more squarely on the person responsible for the policy.
Those actions are not mutually exclusive and presented with such a fee I would do both. However tips do serve to signal information, and if servers are repeatedly being hit with low tips after the fee is instituted that should come to the notice of management. Also servers are less willing to work in an establishment with policies that result in poor tipping. The fact that I would also refuse to go back is part of the fairness to the server, I'm not going to repeatedly short change them. I think the "just don't go there" is a fine practice, but with restaurants sometimes the fee is not disclosed until you have already been seated and are getting ready to order, so its a bit harder to avoid them in the first place.
If you want to stick it to the store, when you leave inform a manager that you would've purchased an additional app or dessert, but you had to hold back due to the extra credit card charge. Those are high profit items. Doesn't matter if it's true; if you didn't purchase an app or dessert you can use that line.
Unfortunately, most people are going to go with 'lookin's route. It's not confrontational, but it hurts most the person that has nothing to do with the policy.
Quote from: Scott5114 on October 19, 2023, 12:49:14 PM
Quote from: kphoger on October 19, 2023, 12:32:41 PM
Quote from: Scott5114 on October 19, 2023, 12:27:02 PM
If you really want to protest the credit card fee, the most effective way to register your disapproval is to stop doing business with the restaurant, as that focuses the negative outcome more squarely on the person responsible for the policy.
Wouldn't that affect the server even more? Now you're not paying the tip at all.
Yes, but the person with the ability to fix the problem now has an incentive to do so.
Or, instead, to reduce the server's base wage.
Quote from: jeffandnicole on October 19, 2023, 01:05:00 PM
If you want to stick it to the store, when you leave inform a manager ...
Best way to voice pretty much anything you have to say about anything.
Quote from: kphoger on October 19, 2023, 12:15:15 PM
I first started noticing this at gas stations, not restaurants: different prices per gallon for cash vs credit card customers. This is clearly passing along a cost of doing business to the customer, not just a price increase at the pump. Or is it? Without it, I suppose, the new price at the pump would simply be between the two instead.
In my observations, the cash price at stations is often the same price at stations that don't have different prices for cash/credit. The merchant fee is already included within that price; the stations are just getting a dime more from customers using credit.
I've always laughed at this station's pricing. https://maps.app.goo.gl/hqd1UE6SFEdJCVYj6 . Their credit price is always just a penny more than the cash pricing. Not 10 cents. Not 8 cents. Just 1 cent. I don't know why, because obviously the credit card pricing fee is greater than a penny. For more amusement on another subject, this station is located within the middle of a jersey traffic circle; one of the few exclusively on county roadways. If you zoom out, the large boulders that are there is a preventative measure; the pumps closest to the camera were recently hit by a wayward car last year. This station has existed within the circle for 40+ years; first time that ever happened to them.
Quote from: HighwayStar on October 19, 2023, 12:51:39 PM
Those actions are not mutually exclusive and presented with such a fee I would do both. However tips do serve to signal information, and if servers are repeatedly being hit with low tips after the fee is instituted that should come to the notice of management.
Should, yes... However in my experience this conversation goes like this:
"Hey, boss, I thought you should know since X was changed tips have gone down."
"Well, tips aren't guaranteed."
"Yes, I know, but I thought that was important for you to know because it means the customers are unhappy."
"Sure. Go back to the floor."
[the policy is never changed]
I actually support cash/credit differences, being a cash user myself.
One business (since moved):
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/53270581255_ef5475b2fc_c.jpg)
I've noticed that many of the takeout pizza/sub places will simply round down (always down) to the nearest 50 cents if you're paying cash. One of them does so even though they already have a 4% credit card fee.
Credit card fees should definitely be a part of cost of doing business. Going cash may save on fees, but isn't totally free on bank side (until business wants to do some tax free operations paying cash down the line), and adds risks of loss from cashier/server fraud or good old robbery.
There may be other issues with credit cards - delays in payout, card fraud, maybe something else. I suspect payout terms - something like NET30 probably? - would be the biggest one.
Quote from: Scott5114 on October 19, 2023, 01:27:28 PM
Quote from: HighwayStar on October 19, 2023, 12:51:39 PM
Those actions are not mutually exclusive and presented with such a fee I would do both. However tips do serve to signal information, and if servers are repeatedly being hit with low tips after the fee is instituted that should come to the notice of management.
Should, yes... However in my experience this conversation goes like this:
"Hey, boss, I thought you should know since X was changed tips have gone down."
"Well, tips aren't guaranteed."
"Yes, I know, but I thought that was important for you to know because it means the customers are unhappy."
"Sure. Go back to the floor."
[the policy is never changed]
Good luck figuring out which X is the problem. Is there is some cost cutting in the kitchen - reduced serving, longer wait, quality? Did a local big business had a layoff and some loyal customers disappeared? Maybe weather is good and people are grilling and going to picnics instead of sit-down places?
Quote from: kalvado on October 19, 2023, 01:34:32 PM
Credit card fees should definitely be a part of cost of doing business. Going cash may save on fees, but isn't totally free on bank side (until business wants to do some tax free operations paying cash down the line), and adds risks of loss from cashier/server fraud or good old robbery.
There may be other issues with credit cards - delays in payout, card fraud, maybe something else. I suspect payout terms - something like NET30 probably? - would be the biggest one.
Companies accepting credit cards get their deposits within a few days at most. They're not waiting on the customer to pay their bill and then the credit card company paying them.
Quote from: Scott5114 on October 19, 2023, 01:27:28 PM
Quote from: HighwayStar on October 19, 2023, 12:51:39 PM
Those actions are not mutually exclusive and presented with such a fee I would do both. However tips do serve to signal information, and if servers are repeatedly being hit with low tips after the fee is instituted that should come to the notice of management.
Should, yes... However in my experience this conversation goes like this:
"Hey, boss, I thought you should know since X was changed tips have gone down."
"Well, tips aren't guaranteed."
"Yes, I know, but I thought that was important for you to know because it means the customers are unhappy."
"Sure. Go back to the floor."
[the policy is never changed]
Yep. I'm not sure how many people here had a job as an hourly employee where they had any significant effect on changing payment policies. Servers, if they had any say, would start with their minimum wage, not their employer's credit card policy.
Quote from: 1 on October 19, 2023, 01:32:18 PM
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/53270581255_ef5475b2fc_c.jpg)
When a cashier asks if they should run my card as credit or debit, I answer:
Whichever is better for you.
The garage out the road, where I have my car serviced, tacks an additional 3 percent onto the bill if you pay with a card.
So, too, does pretty much any government office in the Commonwealth of Kentucky.
Quote from: kphoger on October 19, 2023, 12:48:29 PM
Quote from: Big John on October 19, 2023, 12:29:08 PM
Quote from: kphoger on October 19, 2023, 12:15:15 PM
How about this... Imagine a business in a place that has been hit hard by global warming. Their electricity bill has gone up dramatically due to increased a/c usage. How would you feel about a "climate change surcharge" on your bill?
I have seen an energy surcharge on hotel bills in the past.
Now let's imagine a restaurant that has such an "energy surcharge". But diners who choose patio seating don't have to pay it.
"I'm sorry sir, but I don't know how to take that charge off the bill."(but you might be able to argue with a manager in 20 minutes time and later see if it was worth it)
Quote from: jeffandnicole on October 19, 2023, 01:48:55 PM
Yep. I'm not sure how many people here had a job as an hourly employee where they had any significant effect on changing payment policies. Servers, if they had any say, would start with their minimum wage, not their employer's credit card policy.
I've had management that had an open door policy and was happy to listen to what I told them. I've also had bad management that I gave good advice to that would have significantly helped their business. They could not be bothered to listen, and in any case I voted with my feet and left them to figure it out themselves. Both of these were minimum wage or less than minimum wage positions.
Severs generally make well above minimum wage in tips and have little reason to ask for a minimum wage which they already get. They are more apt to complain or quit if the tips cease coming in because of a stupid credit card charge since those tips are what give them over minimum wage.
Quote from: hbelkins on October 19, 2023, 03:10:42 PM
The garage out the road, where I have my car serviced, tacks an additional 3 percent onto the bill if you pay with a card.
So, too, does pretty much any government office in the Commonwealth of Kentucky.
That seems pretty standard for most government agencies. It makes sense insofar as there may be a fee set by law, or an amount of taxes they're entitled to collect. They're not going to give a card processor a cut of that (and they might not legally be able to do so if the law requires them to collect a certain amount).
Since it's being brought up in a few responses, in Massachusetts it's still against the law to charge a credit card surcharge. You can offer a cash discount from posted price, but not charge extra. Government excepted of course.
That hasn't stopped some businesses from doing it, and outright ignoring me calling them out on it. Curious what the penalty is for not obeying it. Knowing this state, probably worse than if they struck a gun up and just outright stole it from me.
Quote from: hbelkins on October 19, 2023, 03:10:42 PM
So, too, does pretty much any government office in the Commonwealth of Kentucky.
Most states do this. Lets take the DMV. Around here I can go to the Sheriff's office, which charges $3; or I can go to the DMV Kiosk at Kroger, which charges $3; or I can do it in the mail, which costs me a stamp (60c) plus the incidental cost of checks and envelopes, etc.; or I can spend ALL DAY at the DMV.
Just raise the price $3.
I strongly oppose raising the price for everyone in place of a credit card fee. The business doesn't have to pay this fee for cash users, and the fee is much lower (a flat amount rather than a percentage) for debit users for large purchases. Raising the price for everyone would effectively force these users to pay the credit card fee.
Quote from: 1 on October 20, 2023, 10:12:29 AM
I strongly oppose raising the price for everyone in place of a credit card fee. The business doesn't have to pay this fee for cash users, and the fee is much lower (a flat amount rather than a percentage) for debit users for large purchases. Raising the price for everyone would effectively force these users to pay the credit card fee.
Stop accepting credit cards then...
And no, handling cash isn't exactly free as well
Quote from: 1 on October 20, 2023, 10:12:29 AM
I strongly oppose raising the price for everyone in place of a credit card fee. The business doesn't have to pay this fee for cash users, and the fee is much lower (a flat amount rather than a percentage) for debit users for large purchases. Raising the price for everyone would effectively force these users to pay the credit card fee.
Heh. This ship sailed a long, long time ago.
Quote from: kalvado on October 20, 2023, 12:17:09 PM
And no, handling cash isn't exactly free as well
This. Cash has many costs, possibly more than credit cards. You have the cost to deposit at banks, you have the cost for secure transport to banks, you have the cost for security on site (ie. a safe, etc), you have the risk of loss due to internal or external theft and robbery, etc. Machines to accept cash automatically have moving parts that break down and require service, as well as the need for cash to be removed regularly. I have a very hard time believing that the total cash cost to something like a grocery store is not at least 1-2%.
Hence my theory that cash customers are not subsidizing credit card customers but rather covering the different but still real costs of cash.
Quote from: HighwayStar on October 20, 2023, 12:24:18 PM
Quote from: kalvado on October 20, 2023, 12:17:09 PM
And no, handling cash isn't exactly free as well
This. Cash has many costs, possibly more than credit cards. You have the cost to deposit at banks, you have the cost for secure transport to banks, you have the cost for security on site (ie. a safe, etc), you have the risk of loss due to internal or external theft and robbery, etc. Machines to accept cash automatically have moving parts that break down and require service, as well as the need for cash to be removed regularly. I have a very hard time believing that the total cash cost to something like a grocery store is not at least 1-2%.
Hence my theory that cash customers are not subsidizing credit card customers but rather covering the different but still real costs of cash.
Having worked in businesses that accepted a great deal of cash, I can confirm that pretty much nothing about this post is true. If you're running something like a fast food place you are not going to have an armed car show up to collect your piddling $1,000 deposit—you send the manager to the bank to hand it in through the commercial drive thru window. And a safe is a one-time cost, not 3% of every transaction from now until the end of time, so there's no way it's going to be more expensive.
The only time cash handling expenses become more than negligible is when you're regularly dealing with amounts over $10,000 and you need machines to count it all. That's basically banks, casinos, and dispensaries. Nobody else needs that.
Quote from: Scott5114 on October 20, 2023, 01:11:17 PM
Quote from: HighwayStar on October 20, 2023, 12:24:18 PM
Quote from: kalvado on October 20, 2023, 12:17:09 PM
And no, handling cash isn't exactly free as well
This. Cash has many costs, possibly more than credit cards. You have the cost to deposit at banks, you have the cost for secure transport to banks, you have the cost for security on site (ie. a safe, etc), you have the risk of loss due to internal or external theft and robbery, etc. Machines to accept cash automatically have moving parts that break down and require service, as well as the need for cash to be removed regularly. I have a very hard time believing that the total cash cost to something like a grocery store is not at least 1-2%.
Hence my theory that cash customers are not subsidizing credit card customers but rather covering the different but still real costs of cash.
Having worked in businesses that accepted a great deal of cash, I can confirm that pretty much nothing about this post is true. If you're running something like a fast food place you are not going to have an armed car show up to collect your piddling $1,000 deposit—you send the manager to the bank to hand it in through the commercial drive thru window. And a safe is a one-time cost, not 3% of every transaction from now until the end of time, so there's no way it's going to be more expensive.
The only time cash handling expenses become more than negligible is when you're regularly dealing with amounts over $10,000 and you need machines to count it all. That's basically banks, casinos, and dispensaries. Nobody else needs that.
So those armored cars pulling up to the doors of businesses are just window shopping while they run around from bank to bank?
Quote from: jeffandnicole on October 20, 2023, 01:16:11 PM
Quote from: Scott5114 on October 20, 2023, 01:11:17 PM
Quote from: HighwayStar on October 20, 2023, 12:24:18 PM
Quote from: kalvado on October 20, 2023, 12:17:09 PM
And no, handling cash isn't exactly free as well
This. Cash has many costs, possibly more than credit cards. You have the cost to deposit at banks, you have the cost for secure transport to banks, you have the cost for security on site (ie. a safe, etc), you have the risk of loss due to internal or external theft and robbery, etc. Machines to accept cash automatically have moving parts that break down and require service, as well as the need for cash to be removed regularly. I have a very hard time believing that the total cash cost to something like a grocery store is not at least 1-2%.
Hence my theory that cash customers are not subsidizing credit card customers but rather covering the different but still real costs of cash.
Having worked in businesses that accepted a great deal of cash, I can confirm that pretty much nothing about this post is true. If you're running something like a fast food place you are not going to have an armed car show up to collect your piddling $1,000 deposit—you send the manager to the bank to hand it in through the commercial drive thru window. And a safe is a one-time cost, not 3% of every transaction from now until the end of time, so there's no way it's going to be more expensive.
The only time cash handling expenses become more than negligible is when you're regularly dealing with amounts over $10,000 and you need machines to count it all. That's basically banks, casinos, and dispensaries. Nobody else needs that.
So those armored cars pulling up to the doors of businesses are just window shopping while they run around from bank to bank?
Don't tell me there are armored vans transporting cash from AutoZone and Olive Garden to the bank every night.
Quote from: kphoger on October 20, 2023, 01:22:22 PM
Quote from: jeffandnicole on October 20, 2023, 01:16:11 PM
Quote from: Scott5114 on October 20, 2023, 01:11:17 PM
Quote from: HighwayStar on October 20, 2023, 12:24:18 PM
Quote from: kalvado on October 20, 2023, 12:17:09 PM
And no, handling cash isn't exactly free as well
This. Cash has many costs, possibly more than credit cards. You have the cost to deposit at banks, you have the cost for secure transport to banks, you have the cost for security on site (ie. a safe, etc), you have the risk of loss due to internal or external theft and robbery, etc. Machines to accept cash automatically have moving parts that break down and require service, as well as the need for cash to be removed regularly. I have a very hard time believing that the total cash cost to something like a grocery store is not at least 1-2%.
Hence my theory that cash customers are not subsidizing credit card customers but rather covering the different but still real costs of cash.
Having worked in businesses that accepted a great deal of cash, I can confirm that pretty much nothing about this post is true. If you're running something like a fast food place you are not going to have an armed car show up to collect your piddling $1,000 deposit—you send the manager to the bank to hand it in through the commercial drive thru window. And a safe is a one-time cost, not 3% of every transaction from now until the end of time, so there's no way it's going to be more expensive.
The only time cash handling expenses become more than negligible is when you're regularly dealing with amounts over $10,000 and you need machines to count it all. That's basically banks, casinos, and dispensaries. Nobody else needs that.
So those armored cars pulling up to the doors of businesses are just window shopping while they run around from bank to bank?
Don't tell me there are armored vans transporting cash from AutoZone and Olive Garden to the bank every night.
Really...if it wasn't cash, I really want to know what the hell what Burger King was putting in those envelopes that made it so important for me to take them to the bank every day...
Quote from: Scott5114 on October 20, 2023, 01:11:17 PM
Quote from: HighwayStar on October 20, 2023, 12:24:18 PM
Quote from: kalvado on October 20, 2023, 12:17:09 PM
And no, handling cash isn't exactly free as well
This. Cash has many costs, possibly more than credit cards. You have the cost to deposit at banks, you have the cost for secure transport to banks, you have the cost for security on site (ie. a safe, etc), you have the risk of loss due to internal or external theft and robbery, etc. Machines to accept cash automatically have moving parts that break down and require service, as well as the need for cash to be removed regularly. I have a very hard time believing that the total cash cost to something like a grocery store is not at least 1-2%.
Hence my theory that cash customers are not subsidizing credit card customers but rather covering the different but still real costs of cash.
Having worked in businesses that accepted a great deal of cash, I can confirm that pretty much nothing about this post is true. If you're running something like a fast food place you are not going to have an armed car show up to collect your piddling $1,000 deposit—you send the manager to the bank to hand it in through the commercial drive thru window. And a safe is a one-time cost, not 3% of every transaction from now until the end of time, so there's no way it's going to be more expensive.
The only time cash handling expenses become more than negligible is when you're regularly dealing with amounts over $10,000 and you need machines to count it all. That's basically banks, casinos, and dispensaries. Nobody else needs that.
So, 0.5 hour of manager time daily - say $10 - to count and deposit $1000. That's 1% right there...
At least Chase has no fees for up to $5000 monthly on a business account - I assume that means fees over $5000 monthly?
Quote from: kphoger on October 20, 2023, 01:22:22 PM
Don't tell me there are armored vans transporting cash from AutoZone and Olive Garden to the bank every night.
"Did someone say Olive Garden?"
-- Rothman, probably
Quote from: kalvado on October 20, 2023, 01:39:53 PM
So, 0.5 hour of manager time daily - say $10 - to count and deposit $1000. That's 1% right there...
But that cost isn't coming out of the business's pocket—except, I suppose, if the bank is out of the manager's way home and he claims mileage or something. Or am I missing something (which is likely)?
When they would send me to the bank, it was always around 2 or 3pm, when it was dead slow and there wasn't much for me to do anyway. But if they hadn't sent me, they would have had to pay me for that time anyway. Also, this was in 2008, so half an hour of my time was worth $3, not $10, so it was 0.3% of the deposit, not 1%.
Having also worked in a business that accepted a great deal of cash, I can say that we had an armored car come for the cash, and no manager was dropping it off at any bank. I see other armored cars at businesses, so I assume for at least those businesses they are paying for transit. For some smaller businesses I suspect the manager dropping it off at the bank is more common.
Banks also charge a fee to business to deposit cash above a certain amount. From NerdWallet.
What it is: You can deposit only a certain amount of cash at many banks. After that, you'll be charged a fee to process all those bills and coins.
How much it is: Usually about 20 cents to 30 cents for each $100 you deposit above the cash handling limit.
So that by itself is 0.2%-0.3%.
Other's have done estimates in this area. Here is one by IHL Group
https://www.businesswire.com/news/home/20180130005244/en/New-Research-IHL-Group-Shows-Retailers%E2%80%99-Cash-handling/?feedref=JjAwJuNHiystnCoBq_hl-fLcmYSZsqlD_XPbplM8Ta6D8R-QU5o2AvY8bhI9uvWSD8DYIYv4TIC1g1u0AKcacnnViVjtb72bOP4-4nHK5iej_DoWrIhfD31cAxcB60aE (https://www.businesswire.com/news/home/20180130005244/en/New-Research-IHL-Group-Shows-Retailers%E2%80%99-Cash-handling/?feedref=JjAwJuNHiystnCoBq_hl-fLcmYSZsqlD_XPbplM8Ta6D8R-QU5o2AvY8bhI9uvWSD8DYIYv4TIC1g1u0AKcacnnViVjtb72bOP4-4nHK5iej_DoWrIhfD31cAxcB60aE)
They come up with a cost of 4.7% to over 15%. I'm not sure how correct this is, or if I fully buy the upper end estimate, but I think it confirms my thinking that cash is probabally 1%-2% in many instances.
Quote from: hbelkins on October 20, 2023, 01:46:03 PM
Quote from: kphoger on October 20, 2023, 01:22:22 PM
Don't tell me there are armored vans transporting cash from AutoZone and Olive Garden to the bank every night.
"Did someone say Olive Garden?"
-- Rothman, probably
Given how popular it is in areas that lack taste, I wouldn't be surprised if deposits warranted an armored truck in some instances.
Quote from: HighwayStar on October 20, 2023, 02:12:21 PM
Having also worked in a business that accepted a great deal of cash, I can say that we had an armored car come for the cash, and no manager was dropping it off at any bank. I see other armored cars at businesses, so I assume for at least those businesses they are paying for transit. For some smaller businesses I suspect the manager dropping it off at the bank is more common.
Banks also charge a fee to business to deposit cash above a certain amount. From NerdWallet.
I just looked at the terms and conditions of my business account and found no such fee in the fee disclosure. The only fees are based on the number of transactions performed per month above 200, or you can opt for a flat monthly fee. So if a business wanted to reduce the cost of processing cash, apparently all they'd have to do is switch to this bank. (This is the same bank the local casinos use, and I'm guessing that's why.)
I would also imagine that if you're regularly depositing enough cash in a bank that they're contemplating charging you a fee over it, you probably also have a direct line to an executive with the authority to waive the fee. (Or else you should switch to a bank that's small enough that you have such leverage.)
Quote from: Scott5114 on October 21, 2023, 02:47:22 AM
Quote from: HighwayStar on October 20, 2023, 02:12:21 PM
Having also worked in a business that accepted a great deal of cash, I can say that we had an armored car come for the cash, and no manager was dropping it off at any bank. I see other armored cars at businesses, so I assume for at least those businesses they are paying for transit. For some smaller businesses I suspect the manager dropping it off at the bank is more common.
Banks also charge a fee to business to deposit cash above a certain amount. From NerdWallet.
I just looked at the terms and conditions of my business account and found no such fee in the fee disclosure. The only fees are based on the number of transactions performed per month above 200, or you can opt for a flat monthly fee. So if a business wanted to reduce the cost of processing cash, apparently all they'd have to do is switch to this bank. (This is the same bank the local casinos use, and I'm guessing that's why.)
I would also imagine that if you're regularly depositing enough cash in a bank that they're contemplating charging you a fee over it, you probably also have a direct line to an executive with the authority to waive the fee. (Or else you should switch to a bank that's small enough that you have such leverage.)
I think it does largely come down to the business in question and how it's run. I know at Publix, we regularly had an armored van show up around the middle of the day to replace the money in the safe. I think they also handled the ATM on the side of the building?
Quote from: gonealookin on October 19, 2023, 11:48:05 AM
Quote from: jeffandnicole on October 19, 2023, 08:46:58 AM
When businesses charge the customer the 3% separately for using a card, they're just adding on to their bottom line because they can, and an insignificant amount of people switch their payment choice. That expense was already factored in to the product's cost.
The 3% additional charge is becoming more and more common at restaurants; I saw it both last night for dinner and this morning for breakfast. I haven't accepted the practice; I pass that charge right back to the server in the form of a reduced tip. A 20% intended tip on the pretax bill becomes closer to 16% because the 3% charge is applied to the sales tax as well. Is it "fair" that I make the server pay? Not really, but if management is adding this charge "because they can", I'm passing it on "because I can" as well.
It's when those mandatory fees "disguise" the true cost of the meal or service, that's the issue. In San Francisco, restaurants have been passing along the costs of the city-mandated health care fees as an mandatory surcharge instead of including it in the price of the meal and, gues what? Tips have gone down. The same with the hotels which advertise a certain per-night fee, but oh yeah, also include a non-removable "resort fee".
It is a very conscious choice that I make that I carry very little cash in my wallet... maybe $20. My checkbook, as a insecure fiscal instrument, lives in a secure place at home, and I am only on my second book of checks since I moved to Texas. The credit card I use has a higher interest rate (but I pay it off, so 12% of $0 carried balance is $0), but I have used the accumulated awards to pay for home appliance updates including a microwave (my mother carbonized a meal making it stink, requirement replacement) and a washer/dryer. So, eliminating some of those rewards programs may have unintended consequences as some of those rewards program help offset a chunk the cost of a family vacation.
Quote from: ZLoth on October 21, 2023, 10:18:32 AM
Quote from: gonealookin on October 19, 2023, 11:48:05 AM
Quote from: jeffandnicole on October 19, 2023, 08:46:58 AM
When businesses charge the customer the 3% separately for using a card, they're just adding on to their bottom line because they can, and an insignificant amount of people switch their payment choice. That expense was already factored in to the product's cost.
The 3% additional charge is becoming more and more common at restaurants; I saw it both last night for dinner and this morning for breakfast. I haven't accepted the practice; I pass that charge right back to the server in the form of a reduced tip. A 20% intended tip on the pretax bill becomes closer to 16% because the 3% charge is applied to the sales tax as well. Is it "fair" that I make the server pay? Not really, but if management is adding this charge "because they can", I'm passing it on "because I can" as well.
It's when those mandatory fees "disguise" the true cost of the meal or service, that's the issue. In San Francisco, restaurants have been passing along the costs of the city-mandated health care fees as an mandatory surcharge instead of including it in the price of the meal and, gues what? Tips have gone down. The same with the hotels which advertise a certain per-night fee, but oh yeah, also include a non-removable "resort fee".
It is a very conscious choice that I make that I carry very little cash in my wallet... maybe $20. My checkbook, as a insecure fiscal instrument, lives in a secure place at home, and I am only on my second book of checks since I moved to Texas. The credit card I use has a higher interest rate (but I pay it off, so 12% of $0 carried balance is $0), but I have used the accumulated awards to pay for home appliance updates including a microwave (my mother carbonized a meal making it stink, requirement replacement) and a washer/dryer. So, eliminating some of those rewards programs may have unintended consequences as some of those rewards program help offset a chunk the cost of a family vacation.
The reason why we can travel as much as we have is because of those credit card reward points. Now granted, I'm one of those people that earn the points via spending, not traveling. But I purchase nearly everything I can on Credit Cards so my point totals rise fairly quickly (unfortunately that also means I'm spending too much, but I digress...). And we don't carry balances, so I'm not spending money on interest negating the points earned.
In the industry, the companies would rather see users of their branded cards use them for spending at their locations, rather than just using the freebies they earned from general credit card spending. But, hey, they allow it so it occurs. Often.
As far as resort fees go, it's best to just factor them into the total price and pretend they don't exist. The companies do it to reduce the fees they are charged from 3rd parties, such as Expedia and such since 100% of the fee goes to the hotel. What probably pisses people off more is what you 'get' for such a fee, which people rarely use, or is included in most hotel stays anyway: Free local calls. Free coffee in the lobby. Free Newspaper. Free basic internet. Free use of the elevator. Complimentary shower water. In-room safe. Doors with hinges. Uncomfortable pillows. TV remote with slow response time. Glass in window. You get the idea...doesn't matter what they say - you were going to have it anyway. Irocnically, one of the things often not mentioned is use of the pool.
In cities like Vegas where every main hotel on the Strip has a resort fee, there's not much one can do to avoid it. But in some cities where only some hotels have resort fees and some don't, that $25 can easily sway people away. At least it does for me.
Maybe I'm just a little shocked at how few people have noticed armored cars operating at businesses. Or maybe that's done purposely - try to get to businesses during slow times when people are less likely to notice them.
Quote from: kphoger on October 20, 2023, 01:22:22 PM
Don't tell me there are armored vans transporting cash from AutoZone and Olive Garden to the bank every night.
They usually don't pull up at night. They operate during the day. Deposits and till money are left in the safe overnight, and the next day are transported via armored car. They also can provide money to the business to make sure they have plenty of change available.
Quote from: Scott5114 on October 20, 2023, 01:28:24 PM
Really...if it wasn't cash, I really want to know what the hell what Burger King was putting in those envelopes that made it so important for me to take them to the bank every day...
That's 1 business out of hundreds of thousands. These armored cars exist in every state, including states without casinos. There's only so many banks in an area. What your BK did doesn't mean every BK operates in the same manor. $1,000 is also, well, small. Go to a business where purchases are $50 - $100 each transaction rather than $5 - $10, and you'll probably get a different response as to how cash is handled. Even if a minority of those transactions are cash, that's still a lot of money. Supermarkets, department stores, drug stores, high-volume convenience stores, etc all will have a lot of cash on hand, more than what they're willing to give to any store employee to take to the bank.
Different areas of the country do things differently too. You mentioned the Commercial drive thru window, which is often the window closest to the building. In this area, we rarely have 'Commercial' drive thru lanes - the window next to the business is for everyone. I remember having a boss one time that had moved up from Florida, and he was constantly irritated at how different things were in NJ compared to FL when it came to operating businesses. Obviously, the rest of us were used to it, but he never did come around - eventually he left and moved back south.
I dunno, if you want to believe that armored car transit is more common than it really is I don't really have a means to stop you. I don't doubt that it exists; I've seen it too. I just don't believe it's the default means of getting money to the bank. For every Walmart a town has where armored car transit makes sense, it has ten fast food joints, nail salons, and vape shops for which an armored car would be overkill.
Quote from: Scott5114 on October 21, 2023, 01:28:02 PM
I dunno, if you want to believe that armored car transit is more common than it really is I don't really have a means to stop you. I don't doubt that it exists; I've seen it too. I just don't believe it's the default means of getting money to the bank. For every Walmart a town has where armored car transit makes sense, it has ten fast food joints, nail salons, and vape shops for which an armored car would be overkill.
I haven't said a single thing you're insinuating. Where did I say it's the default method of transporting money, or where every fast food joint, nail salon and vape shop uses them? Would a McDonalds in Times Square use an armored car service? Probably. Would a McDonalds in Chamberlain, South Dakota use one? Less likely.
Quote from: kphoger on October 19, 2023, 11:35:54 AM
At least when it comes to brick-and-mortar stores, I've seen $10 minimums for credit card purchases more often than outright cash-only policies.
I've seen several physical sellers that change a fee for credit card transactions under $10.
Quote from: kkt on October 21, 2023, 03:53:49 PM
Quote from: kphoger on October 19, 2023, 11:35:54 AM
At least when it comes to brick-and-mortar stores, I've seen $10 minimums for credit card purchases more often than outright cash-only policies.
I've seen several physical sellers that change a fee for credit card transactions under $10.
This doesn't really make sense — credit is a percentage, while debit is a flat amount.
Quote from: 1 on October 21, 2023, 08:02:39 PM
Quote from: kkt on October 21, 2023, 03:53:49 PM
Quote from: kphoger on October 19, 2023, 11:35:54 AM
At least when it comes to brick-and-mortar stores, I've seen $10 minimums for credit card purchases more often than outright cash-only policies.
I've seen several physical sellers that change a fee for credit card transactions under $10.
This doesn't really make sense — credit is a percentage, while debit is a flat amount.
Credit is a % with a minimum fee.
Quote from: jeffandnicole on October 21, 2023, 11:39:10 AMThat's 1 business out of hundreds of thousands. These armored cars exist in every state, including states without casinos. There's only so many banks in an area. What your BK did doesn't mean every BK operates in the same manor. $1,000 is also, well, small. Go to a business where purchases are $50 - $100 each transaction rather than $5 - $10, and you'll probably get a different response as to how cash is handled. Even if a minority of those transactions are cash, that's still a lot of money. Supermarkets, department stores, drug stores, high-volume convenience stores, etc all will have a lot of cash on hand, more than what they're willing to give to any store employee to take to the bank.
Which brings me to a slight irritation... the ban on cashless business. If you accept cash, you have to keep enough cash on-hand in order to make change. That opens you up to possible theft due to large amounts of cash. Now, for some businesses like fast food restaurants, grocery stores, and laundermats, where the typical value of a transaction is low and the number of corresponding transactions is high, yes, it makes sense to accept cash. For other businesses where the value of transactions is high, they should be allowed to go "cashless" and accept credit cards or electronic transfers for payment to avoid the risk of cash theft. It's their business, let them face the consequences of their decision. Yet, the states of California, Oregon, Montana, Colorado, Tennesse, Pennsylvania, New York, Massachusetts, Rhode Island, Connecticut, New Jersey, and Deleware have told business "No, you must continue to accept cash."
Of course, you are also looking at the person who would prefer that the credit card processing machine be brought to the table and a pin entered to process a credit card transaction rather than put the credit card on a tray. (Some restaurants do provide a QR Code to pay at the table.) This is on top of the elimination of the easily-copied magnetic stripe in favor of the card chip.
Quote from: ZLoth on October 21, 2023, 09:40:37 PM
Of course, you are also looking at the person who would prefer that the credit card processing machine be brought to the table and a pin entered to process a credit card transaction rather than put the credit card on a tray. (Some restaurants do provide a QR Code to pay at the table.) This is on top of the elimination of the easily-copied magnetic stripe in favor of the card chip.
Living in a country where this is the norm, it's weird to go back to the U.S. where the waiter just takes your card somewhere and does something with it.
Quote from: ZLoth on October 21, 2023, 09:40:37 PM
Yet, the states of California, Oregon, Montana, Colorado, Tennesse, Pennsylvania, New York, Massachusetts, Rhode Island, Connecticut, New Jersey, and Deleware have told business "No, you must continue to accept cash."
Although since the pandemic, sporting complexes seem to have a permitted work-around, where they only take credit, and cash people can go to an exchange machine to receive a debit card in exchange for their cash. I think the Linc in Philly has 2 machines. They have at least one at Citizens Bank Park in Philly also, but I've never seen it.
Quote from: algorerhythms on October 21, 2023, 11:38:59 PM
Quote from: ZLoth on October 21, 2023, 09:40:37 PM
Of course, you are also looking at the person who would prefer that the credit card processing machine be brought to the table and a pin entered to process a credit card transaction rather than put the credit card on a tray. (Some restaurants do provide a QR Code to pay at the table.) This is on top of the elimination of the easily-copied magnetic stripe in favor of the card chip.
Living in a country where this is the norm, it's weird to go back to the U.S. where the waiter just takes your card somewhere and does something with it.
Heh. I was an idiot at a Denny's once where the waitress scanned my card with a dooohickey on her belt.
Turned out it was a skimmer and fradulent charges started popping up. Found out it was her because she and her partner in crime made the news.
Quote from: ZLoth on October 21, 2023, 09:40:37 PM
Quote from: jeffandnicole on October 21, 2023, 11:39:10 AMThat's 1 business out of hundreds of thousands. These armored cars exist in every state, including states without casinos. There's only so many banks in an area. What your BK did doesn't mean every BK operates in the same manor. $1,000 is also, well, small. Go to a business where purchases are $50 - $100 each transaction rather than $5 - $10, and you'll probably get a different response as to how cash is handled. Even if a minority of those transactions are cash, that's still a lot of money. Supermarkets, department stores, drug stores, high-volume convenience stores, etc all will have a lot of cash on hand, more than what they're willing to give to any store employee to take to the bank.
Which brings me to a slight irritation... the ban on cashless business. If you accept cash, you have to keep enough cash on-hand in order to make change. That opens you up to possible theft due to large amounts of cash. Now, for some businesses like fast food restaurants, grocery stores, and laundermats, where the typical value of a transaction is low and the number of corresponding transactions is high, yes, it makes sense to accept cash. For other businesses where the value of transactions is high, they should be allowed to go "cashless" and accept credit cards or electronic transfers for payment to avoid the risk of cash theft. It's their business, let them face the consequences of their decision. Yet, the states of California, Oregon, Montana, Colorado, Tennesse, Pennsylvania, New York, Massachusetts, Rhode Island, Connecticut, New Jersey, and Deleware have told business "No, you must continue to accept cash."
Of course, you are also looking at the person who would prefer that the credit card processing machine be brought to the table and a pin entered to process a credit card transaction rather than put the credit card on a tray. (Some restaurants do provide a QR Code to pay at the table.) This is on top of the elimination of the easily-copied magnetic stripe in favor of the card chip.
If cash theft is possible to get away with at all, that means your accounting and loss prevention procedures suck.
I had a coworker get canned once because they caught him with a quarter he wasn't supposed to have.
Quote from: hbelkins on October 20, 2023, 01:46:03 PM
Quote from: kphoger on October 20, 2023, 01:22:22 PM
Don't tell me there are armored vans transporting cash from AutoZone and Olive Garden to the bank every night.
"Did someone say Olive Garden?"
-- Rothman, probably
Evergreen post, take a bow.
Quote from: jeffandnicole on October 21, 2023, 11:47:58 PM
Quote from: ZLoth on October 21, 2023, 09:40:37 PM
Yet, the states of California, Oregon, Montana, Colorado, Tennesse, Pennsylvania, New York, Massachusetts, Rhode Island, Connecticut, New Jersey, and Deleware have told business "No, you must continue to accept cash."
Although since the pandemic, sporting complexes seem to have a permitted work-around, where they only take credit, and cash people can go to an exchange machine to receive a debit card in exchange for their cash. I think the Linc in Philly has 2 machines. They have at least one at Citizens Bank Park in Philly also, but I've never seen it.
While Massachusetts doesn't allow it, as usual they do exempt their own government. For example, at state parks, I cannot pay cash in their payment machines anymore, starting with upgraded machines around 2021.
Quote from: 1 on October 21, 2023, 08:02:39 PM
Quote from: kkt on October 21, 2023, 03:53:49 PM
Quote from: kphoger on October 19, 2023, 11:35:54 AM
At least when it comes to brick-and-mortar stores, I've seen $10 minimums for credit card purchases more often than outright cash-only policies.
I've seen several physical sellers that change a fee for credit card transactions under $10.
This doesn't really make sense — credit is a percentage, while debit is a flat amount.
It's pretty straightforward. If the merchant is making enough of a profit on the sale, they can afford the percentage. If the profit is very small on the sale, the cut for the credit card company eats up all the profit margin.
Quote from: ZLoth on October 21, 2023, 09:40:37 PM
Quote from: jeffandnicole on October 21, 2023, 11:39:10 AMThat's 1 business out of hundreds of thousands. These armored cars exist in every state, including states without casinos. There's only so many banks in an area. What your BK did doesn't mean every BK operates in the same manor. $1,000 is also, well, small. Go to a business where purchases are $50 - $100 each transaction rather than $5 - $10, and you'll probably get a different response as to how cash is handled. Even if a minority of those transactions are cash, that's still a lot of money. Supermarkets, department stores, drug stores, high-volume convenience stores, etc all will have a lot of cash on hand, more than what they're willing to give to any store employee to take to the bank.
Which brings me to a slight irritation... the ban on cashless business. If you accept cash, you have to keep enough cash on-hand in order to make change. That opens you up to possible theft due to large amounts of cash. Now, for some businesses like fast food restaurants, grocery stores, and laundermats, where the typical value of a transaction is low and the number of corresponding transactions is high, yes, it makes sense to accept cash. For other businesses where the value of transactions is high, they should be allowed to go "cashless" and accept credit cards or electronic transfers for payment to avoid the risk of cash theft. It's their business, let them face the consequences of their decision. Yet, the states of California, Oregon, Montana, Colorado, Tennesse, Pennsylvania, New York, Massachusetts, Rhode Island, Connecticut, New Jersey, and Deleware have told business "No, you must continue to accept cash."
I guess the phrase "This note is legal tender for all debts, public and private" means something in those states.
Quote from: hbelkins on October 24, 2023, 09:57:36 AM
I guess the phrase "This note is legal tender for all debts, public and private" means something in those states.
This has nothing to do with that phrase. Massachusetts must allow cash whether it's a debt or not. Cash for debts (i.e. you receive the item or service before you pay) must be accepted everywhere.
From FailBlog/Cheezburder:
'I pulled 60 quarters out of my pocket and set them on the counter': Restaurant cashier complains about credit card transactions, prompting one of her regulars to teach her a lesson about the inconvenience of cashQuoteCredit cards are insanely convenient. Nowadays, you don't even need to swipe your card to pay, you can just whip that little bad boy out, tap your plastic money on the terminal, and BAM, you've made a purchase. Old school folks have reluctantly accepted that everyone prefers to pay with plastic money, idealizing the old ways of counting cash and receiving change in exchange for goods or services. But with all that spare change jangling around in your pocket, wouldn't you rather embrace the future and pick up a trusty rectangular bank account that only takes up a 2"x3" surface area in your wallet? Obviously there are other nuisances in the cash versus card world, like small businesses getting charged to run credit transactions, but for most of the world, we're happy to pay $0.15 on a transaction in order to avoid having cash bills and coins in our care.
In this story, a cashier at a small restaurant was taught a quick lesson in the costs and benefits of cash payments. After months of accosting regulars for using their credit cards (and accepting the fee included), one patron decided that he would teach this young cashier about the inconveniences of cash. Scroll onward for the metallic revenge of a restaurant pirate, unloading his treasures to pay for a sandwich. Next up, check out this story of a Karen who stalks her old house after selling it, pushing the new residents to their limit.
FULL ARTICLE HERE (https://markholtz.info/2sq)
Many other countries say that coins are only legal tender up to a certain number of coins. The United States does not, but something like "a maximum of 25 of each coin" is a solution to things like this (although the story above doesn't seem to actually involve legal tender laws, as it was a pay at the counter restaurant and not a sit-down restaurant).
Also, don't most businesses give out more quarters than they receive? It was sixty quarters and not 1500 pennies, so it might have actually been useful to them.
Quote from: 1 on October 24, 2023, 11:20:43 AM
Also, don't most businesses give out more quarters than they receive? It was sixty quarters and not 1500 pennies, so it might have actually been useful to them.
Yeah, I once paid for something with a roll of quarters or nickels or whatever (too long ago, don't remember the denomination) because that's all I had, and the cashier was positively over the moon about it.
Quote from: ZLoth on October 24, 2023, 11:18:36 AM
From FailBlog/Cheezburder:
'I pulled 60 quarters out of my pocket and set them on the counter': Restaurant cashier complains about credit card transactions, prompting one of her regulars to teach her a lesson about the inconvenience of cashQuoteCredit cards are insanely convenient. Nowadays, you don't even need to swipe your card to pay, you can just whip that little bad boy out, tap your plastic money on the terminal, and BAM, you've made a purchase. Old school folks have reluctantly accepted that everyone prefers to pay with plastic money, idealizing the old ways of counting cash and receiving change in exchange for goods or services. But with all that spare change jangling around in your pocket, wouldn't you rather embrace the future and pick up a trusty rectangular bank account that only takes up a 2"x3" surface area in your wallet? Obviously there are other nuisances in the cash versus card world, like small businesses getting charged to run credit transactions, but for most of the world, we're happy to pay $0.15 on a transaction in order to avoid having cash bills and coins in our care.
In this story, a cashier at a small restaurant was taught a quick lesson in the costs and benefits of cash payments. After months of accosting regulars for using their credit cards (and accepting the fee included), one patron decided that he would teach this young cashier about the inconveniences of cash. Scroll onward for the metallic revenge of a restaurant pirate, unloading his treasures to pay for a sandwich. Next up, check out this story of a Karen who stalks her old house after selling it, pushing the new residents to their limit.
FULL ARTICLE HERE (https://markholtz.info/2sq)
I specifically like that the picture at the end of the story shows a handful of coins - but neither US coins nor coins of same value as it is in the story....
Many people prefer cash because it's not contingent upon some electronic system failing to work.
Or some arbitrary "social credit" system where your access to your bank account gets shut off for whatever reason. (I'm not that person, but there are plenty of people out there who legitimately are fearful of not being able to access their funds).
Quote from: hbelkins on October 24, 2023, 11:50:57 AM
Many people prefer cash because it's not contingent upon some electronic system failing to work.
I had to go to a car dealership to buy a wiper blade yesterday.
(
Long story. This was the first time I've had to replace a wiper blade on this vehicle. I went to AutoZone and bought the correct length of my usual brand, only to get home and find out that Chevrolet decided to use a proprietary type of connection, such that a normal blade won't go on the arm. A few weeks ago, therefore, I went to a dealership to get one from the parts counter. They were out of stock and wouldn't be getting any new ones for who knows how long, due to the ongoing GM strike. So I went home, found one on Amazon, and ordered it for delivery. Time passed, and the order wasn't shipping, and then we got a notification that the seller was no longer in business with Amazon. Ugh. By this point, half the rubber element was flopping around on the windshield, and rain was coming up in the forecast. So yesterday, I went to a different dealership and bought one. I actually like these connectors better than the standard ones, but what a hassle...)
Anywho... The guy behind the parts counter ran my card. But the system was taking forever. So he voided the transaction and ran it again. Each of these steps took several minutes, so I probably had my new wiper blade in hand for like fifteen minutes or more, just waiting on payment to process. Finally, he handed me the receipt. It said "amount paid $0.00". But he said don't worry about that: it took my money just fine. "Hopefully just once", I half-joked.
So, in the end, I wasted a bunch of time, got an incorrect receipt, and left a bit uncertain that I hadn't been double-charged. All because I used a card instead of cash. If I had used cash, none of that would have been true.
Quote from: kphoger on October 24, 2023, 12:03:51 PM
Quote from: hbelkins on October 24, 2023, 11:50:57 AM
Many people prefer cash because it's not contingent upon some electronic system failing to work.
I had to go to a car dealership to buy a wiper blade yesterday.
(Long story. This was the first time I've had to replace a wiper blade on this vehicle. I went to AutoZone and bought the correct length of my usual brand, only to get home and find out that Chevrolet decided to use a proprietary type of connection, such that a normal blade won't go on the arm. A few weeks ago, therefore, I went to a dealership to get one from the parts counter. They were out of stock and wouldn't be getting any new ones for who knows how long, due to the ongoing GM strike. So I went home, found one on Amazon, and ordered it for delivery. Time passed, and the order wasn't shipping, and then we got a notification that the seller was no longer in business with Amazon. Ugh. By this point, half the rubber element was flopping around on the windshield, and rain was coming up in the forecast. So yesterday, I went to a different dealership and bought one. I actually like these connectors better than the standard ones, but what a hassle...)
Anywho... The guy behind the parts counter ran my card. But the system was taking forever. So he voided the transaction and ran it again. Each of these steps took several minutes, so I probably had my new wiper blade in hand for like fifteen minutes or more, just waiting on payment to process. Finally, he handed me the receipt. It said "amount paid $0.00". But he said don't worry about that: it took my money just fine. "Hopefully just once", I half-joked.
So, in the end, I wasted a bunch of time, got an incorrect receipt, and left a bit uncertain that I hadn't been double-charged. All because I used a card instead of cash. If I had used cash, none of that would have been true.
But with cash if a mistake is made it can be difficult or impossible to ascertain what happened.
"I gave you a 20"
"No, it was a 10"
etc.
With a card, what you were charged is going to show up on the bill, and you can cross validate that against the receipt which should show cost of goods sold. Even if the receipt is wrong, you can still point to the price tag on the shelf or product for what you were supposed to pay.
Even better is the integration of credit cards by retailers. Every time I shop at Walmart I use my card, and without doing anything else my receipts and purchase history are on my Walmart account. Extremely convenient.
My cleaners does not take cash.
It is just a store in a strip mall, the laundry is taken somewhere else and washed and brought back. I take it that they don't pay much, because it is always a different person there and they often look sketchy. And it is always a female.
So they had to go to the bank, get cash for change every morning, and then reverse the process in the evening. Waste of time and dangerous for the female worker.
So they just take cards. No harm, no foul. And there are other cleaners if you don't like that.
Quote from: HighwayStar on October 24, 2023, 12:10:11 PM
"I gave you a 20"
"No, it was a 10"
etc.
I have never once had a cashier push the argument when I corrected them on how much change I was due. Not once. Nor have I heard any of my friends and family mention it having happened.
But there have been plenty of instances of double-charging or fraudulent charges when I or they used plastic.
Quote from: kphoger on October 24, 2023, 12:33:14 PM
Quote from: HighwayStar on October 24, 2023, 12:10:11 PM
"I gave you a 20"
"No, it was a 10"
etc.
I have never once had a cashier push the argument when I corrected them on how much change I was due. Not once. Nor have I heard any of my friends and family mention it having happened.
But there have been plenty of instances of double-charging or fraudulent charges when I or they used plastic.
I've had the argument over what I gave them (actually, it was a dispute over the coin so it was very stupid on their part).
However with a card I'm not liable for fraud or incorrect charges so if it happens (and I've never had it with a merchant I did business with) my liability is $0 anyway and I simply inform the card issuer of that.
Quote from: HighwayStar on October 24, 2023, 12:42:24 PM
However with a card I'm not liable for fraud or incorrect charges so if it happens (and I've never had it with a merchant I did business with) my liability is $0 anyway and I simply inform the card issuer of that.
Which only matter after the fact. In the middle of the dispute, after your card has already had thousands of dollars fraudulently charged but before everything gets resolved with the bank, it can be a different story.
Quote from: hbelkins on October 24, 2023, 11:50:57 AM
Many people prefer cash because it's not contingent upon some electronic system failing to work.
When's the last time you saw a mechanical cash register? If the register is down (including connections to the home office by whatever magical interweb), they don't know how to charge you for anything.
Back in the mostly cash days, we paid for a purchase. (So long ago, the company has long been out of business and the building has housed at least two other businesses.) I was supposed to get some dollar amount and 88 cents back. She gave me 8 cents - because that's what showed up on the register because the center LED segment on the cash register was out. The cashiers, even way back then, were so used to the machine working and thinking for them that they couldn't comprehend that if the bill came to something and 12 cents, the customer should get more than 8 cents back.
On the topic of card-only locations, I've seen that at 2 zoos recently. If you don't have a card, you can go to an ATM to get a temporary debit card. I don't know what happens if you put your $20 in the machine, but lunch costs you $16.93. Do you go back to the machine when exiting to get the balance on your temp card back? Or do you just have to eat the difference?
Quote from: GaryV on October 24, 2023, 01:25:02 PM
When's the last time you saw a mechanical cash register? If the register is down (including connections to the home office by whatever magical interweb), they don't know how to charge you for anything.
The place where I play Magic: the Gathering allows cash purchases during power outages.
Quote from: kphoger on October 24, 2023, 12:46:53 PM
Quote from: HighwayStar on October 24, 2023, 12:42:24 PM
However with a card I'm not liable for fraud or incorrect charges so if it happens (and I've never had it with a merchant I did business with) my liability is $0 anyway and I simply inform the card issuer of that.
Which only matter after the fact. In the middle of the dispute, after your card has already had thousands of dollars fraudulently charged but before everything gets resolved with the bank, it can be a different story.
It's a good idea to have at least two cards, with different banks, so that if/when there's an issue with one you can just pull the next one off the deck.
I've never had a huge fraudulent charge go on my account. Occasionally someone has gotten my credit card number and when that has happened, it seems like they do a test charge to check the legitimacy of the account. Something like $3 to Amazon Prime that they hope you will overlook. I'm pretty obsessive about monitoring my accounts, checking the up-to-date status online at least every other day, so when I have seen something like that it's still listed as a "pending" transaction and I call the bank's fraud department immediately to prevent any further charges to that account number. They issue a new card with a different number, and while I'm waiting for that to arrive I use the alternate card.
I avoid the type of bill payment where you have to write all of your credit card info (account no., security code, expiration date) on the slip attached to the bill and mail it back to who-knows-whom. In the event I have to do that (I think the dentist and plumber bills get paid that way) I get one of those "virtual account numbers" from the credit card bank's website and write that one down instead, which makes it unnecessary to wait for a new card with a new main account number.
Quote from: 1 on October 24, 2023, 01:26:33 PM
Quote from: GaryV on October 24, 2023, 01:25:02 PM
When's the last time you saw a mechanical cash register? If the register is down (including connections to the home office by whatever magical interweb), they don't know how to charge you for anything.
The place where I play Magic: the Gathering allows cash purchases during power outages.
Do they hand out flashlights at night, too?
Quote from: SectorZ on October 24, 2023, 02:00:30 PM
Quote from: 1 on October 24, 2023, 01:26:33 PM
Quote from: GaryV on October 24, 2023, 01:25:02 PM
When's the last time you saw a mechanical cash register? If the register is down (including connections to the home office by whatever magical interweb), they don't know how to charge you for anything.
The place where I play Magic: the Gathering allows cash purchases during power outages.
Do they hand out flashlights at night, too?
No, but it was a Saturday when I was there and the power was out, and they're only open in the daytime on Saturdays.
Quote from: kphoger on October 24, 2023, 12:46:53 PM
Quote from: HighwayStar on October 24, 2023, 12:42:24 PM
However with a card I'm not liable for fraud or incorrect charges so if it happens (and I've never had it with a merchant I did business with) my liability is $0 anyway and I simply inform the card issuer of that.
Which only matter after the fact. In the middle of the dispute, after your card has already had thousands of dollars fraudulently charged but before everything gets resolved with the bank, it can be a different story.
The only time I had fraud I called the bank, told them which charges were fraudulent, and they sent me a new card.
I don't care about thousands of dollars on the card I didn't spend, because my liability is $0. Its like caring about a bill for my neighbor that shows up in my mailbox, its not my liability, therefore I could care less what the value is.
Cash on the other hand, once stolen, is virtually guaranteed to never be recovered. If your wallet is lost/stolen you are unlikely to get the money in it back.
Also, the hassles of reversing a fraudulent charge on plastic, or replacing a lost or stolen card (including the time needed to physically get a new one) can be mind numbing.
If I accidentally drop a $20 note of the sidewalk, I likely wont even notice it missing. Yes, I'm out $20. BUT, I'm out $20 AND NOTHING ELSE. No hassles, nothing else, and life goes on. You can't say that with plastic.
Mike
Quote from: kphoger on October 24, 2023, 12:33:14 PM
Quote from: HighwayStar on October 24, 2023, 12:10:11 PM
"I gave you a 20"
"No, it was a 10"
etc.
I have never once had a cashier push the argument when I corrected them on how much change I was due. Not once. Nor have I heard any of my friends and family mention it having happened.
But there have been plenty of instances of double-charging or fraudulent charges when I or they used plastic.
Pfft. When I was a cashier, the suggested argument came up a bunch of times.
Quote from: mgk920 on October 24, 2023, 02:46:47 PM
Also, the hassles of reversing a fraudulent charge on plastic, or replacing a lost or stolen card (including the time needed to physically get a new one) can be mind numbing.
If I accidentally drop a $20 note of the sidewalk, I likely wont even notice it missing. Yes, I'm out $20. BUT, I'm out $20 AND NOTHING ELSE. No hassles, nothing else, and life goes on. You can't say that with plastic.
The person I know who has had this happen multiple times lives in a foreign country with a US card. Multiply the hassle!
Huh. I have found fraudulent charges to be annoying the couple of times I've had to deal with them, but they've still been easy to reverse. I never lost any money due to them.
Losing cash, though? That's worse, since I'm out money.
Geez, how much cash do you guys carry in your wallet at a time?
Quote from: kphoger on October 25, 2023, 09:12:09 AMGeez, how much cash do you guys carry in your wallet at a time?
Unless I'm heading upward to a Oklahoma casino (in which case, it's the Jackson 5 in my wallet), usually, less than $20. As I'm WFHing and an adult caregiver, sometimes it's empty.
For other people, it's this:
(https://image.spreadshirtmedia.com/image-server/v1/compositions/T210A2PA4301PT17X0Y5D1011413204W33102H33102/views/1,width=550,height=550,appearanceId=2,backgroundColor=000000,noPt=true/driver-carries-no-cash-hes-married-gift-for-men-mens-t-shirt.jpg)
That's what I'm getting at. Even if I lose all the cash out of my wallet, it's not like I'm out a boatload of money. Let alone the pittance that would be the result of miscounted change by a cashier.
Quote from: kphoger on October 25, 2023, 09:26:35 AM
That's what I'm getting at. Even if I lose all the cash out of my wallet, it's not like I'm out a boatload of money. Let alone the pittance that would be the result of miscounted change by a cashier.
strictly speaking, if you get a problem with a credit (not a debit) card, you don't loose anything. You may loose an option for easy purchase, but funds actually never leave your pocket.
With that, I had a total of 3 credit card problems (including a lost card) and 1 checking account problem over the years. Total loss - some time spent on the phone and at the bank.
Quote from: kalvado on October 25, 2023, 10:28:55 AM
strictly speaking, if you get a problem with a credit (not a debit) card, you don't loose anything. You may loose an option for easy purchase, but ...
This is the fact that seems to be escaping people.
For example, let's say you're on a road trip and relying on your credit card. Unbeknownst to you, the Phillips 66 pump you fill up at in Lubbock has a card skimmer. Four days later, you're checking your account while waiting for your lunch order at a Love's/Wendy's truck stop in Cheyenne, and you notice two fraudulent gas purchases at the Lubbock Phillips 66 station; you weren't even in Texas anymore when you supposedly purchased those tanks of gas. So you contact your credit card company to report the fraud, and they lock your card so they can investigate. You finish your Baconator, go back outside, and pull up to the pump. Now how do you pay?
Quote from: kphoger on October 25, 2023, 10:39:41 AM
Quote from: kalvado on October 25, 2023, 10:28:55 AM
strictly speaking, if you get a problem with a credit (not a debit) card, you don't loose anything. You may loose an option for easy purchase, but ...
This is the fact that seems to be escaping people.
For example, let's say you're on a road trip and relying on your credit card. Unbeknownst to you, the Phillips 66 pump you fill up at in Lubbock has a card skimmer. Four days later, you're checking your account while waiting for your lunch order at a Love's/Wendy's truck stop in Cheyenne, and you notice two fraudulent gas purchases at the Lubbock Phillips 66 station; you weren't even in Texas anymore when you supposedly purchased those tanks of gas. So you contact your credit card company to report the fraud, and they lock your card so they can investigate. You finish your Baconator, go back outside, and pull up to the pump. Now how do you pay?
well, what if you lost that lone $50 which was in your wallet? Same thing.
I, for one, have a total of 4 cards I can use - 2 credit and 2 debit. Memorizing main card data after replacement is the biggest inconvenience I was getting. And yes, $100 in cash for the trip is a must
And whatever it worth, whenever I was talking to the bank about a card problem, they explicitly asked if I have any other payment options or need some help - not sure what they would be offering (see above), but apparently problem is well known.
Now getting my wallet stollen is another escalation...
I've just found that it makes more sense to primarily use cash on a trip, and have the card as a backup. I've had a to use a card in an emergency, to buy a wheel bearing at AutoZone in Mexico when one of the vehicles broke down in the middle of the desert. $100 in backup cash would not have helped me in that case, considering the part cost more than $100. Meanwhile, I never have to worry about fraudulent charges when paying with cash. I can fill up at the very same gas stations where our friends have had fraudulent charges in the past (and yes, they've had it happen at multiple locations), without having to worry about that because they don't have my card information. I never have to worry about my card being declined for any reason, because cash always works.
I had only one unfortunate incident. I was traveling with my daughter's robotics team, my wife was at home. Our car got stolen from in front of our house. Sadly she had left her wallet in the car, so we had to cancel all our cards and get new ones. I was in charge of paying the team's entrance to Six Flags - fortunately it had been a prior charge and was already on the card and we got in.
Another time I had a charge for Broadway tickets charged to my card; I think it was at one of those same-day kiosk kind of things. I simply called up to dispute it saying we'd never been in New York it and the charge got removed, and we got a new card number. In the meantime I used one of my other cards.
Anyone remember traveler's checks?
Quote from: GaryV on October 25, 2023, 11:11:05 AM
Anyone remember traveler's checks?
From childhood family vacations, yes.
Quote from: kphoger on October 25, 2023, 11:02:20 AM
I've just found that it makes more sense to primarily use cash on a trip, and have the card as a backup. I've had a to use a card in an emergency, to buy a wheel bearing at AutoZone in Mexico when one of the vehicles broke down in the middle of the desert. $100 in backup cash would not have helped me in that case, considering the part cost more than $100. Meanwhile, I never have to worry about fraudulent charges when paying with cash. I can fill up at the very same gas stations where our friends have had fraudulent charges in the past (and yes, they've had it happen at multiple locations), without having to worry about that because they don't have my card information. I never have to worry about my card being declined for any reason, because cash always works.
Credit cards give me points, so on trips, the benefits far outweigh using cash (get robbed, lose your cash; get robbed with plastic, you cancel the card and you're not out any money). That's even with me going through the exact scenario outlined above where my card was canceled due to the fraudulent charges. If you've got money to travel, you've should have multiple options to pay your way (e.g., an extra credit card, debit card...bartering... :D).
When cards are stolen, the credit card companies can easily see the person's normal spending. If someone is making routine purchases at home, and suddenly they buy 6 iPhones then 2 TVs at an electronics store 300 miles away, there's a pretty good clue that the cardholder didn't make that purchase.
Our cards have only been hacked a few times, and once or twice the CC company notified us immediately that something seemed unusual.
Once they contacted me about a $100 Google Play purchase, and I declined it. Only a few weeks later did I realize it was a legit purchase - I had gotten my mom Google Ring cameras and a subscription to view the camera history. Since there was a free 1 month trial, the card wasn't charged until a month later. With the vague description of "Did you make a $100 Google Play purchase", it didn't click the reason why at the time.
Traveler's Checks: Yep - my parents used them all the time. I did too on my first trip or two, but stopped when they were more of a hassle than they needed to be with credit cards becoming the norm. When I worked the NJ Turnpike tolls, I had a few people try giving them to me - we refused them. One person was pissed because he already signed it. Not my fault man - you signed it before I said I couldn't accept them.
Quote from: kphoger on October 25, 2023, 10:39:41 AMFor example, let's say you're on a road trip and relying on your credit card. Unbeknownst to you, the Phillips 66 pump you fill up at in Lubbock has a card skimmer. Four days later, you're checking your account while waiting for your lunch order at a Love's/Wendy's truck stop in Cheyenne, and you notice two fraudulent gas purchases at the Lubbock Phillips 66 station; you weren't even in Texas anymore when you supposedly purchased those tanks of gas. So you contact your credit card company to report the fraud, and they lock your card so they can investigate. You finish your Baconator, go back outside, and pull up to the pump. Now how do you pay?
If I am on vacation or on a road trip, I carry along my backup credit cards for exactly this reason. A corollary to this is that some stations will also do a pre-authorization of $75-$100 and then process the actual charge once the fillup is completed. The pre-authorization reduces the available credit on a credit card, but also reduces the balance available on a debit card. It can take a few days to "settle up", but if you have a low balance on your debit card, that can really hurt.
To those who say the solution to credit card issues is to carry an additional credit card, I say... The solution to stolen cash is to carry additional cash. :awesomeface:
Quote from: kphoger on October 25, 2023, 11:35:41 AM
To those who say the solution to credit card issues is to carry an additional credit card, I say... The solution to stolen cash is to carry additional cash. :awesomeface:
If someone is worried about their debit card having a pre-authorization against it reducing the available amount, chances are they also don't have extra cash to keep around either.
Quote from: jeffandnicole on October 25, 2023, 11:41:31 AM
If someone is worried about their debit card having a pre-authorization against it reducing the available amount, chances are they also don't have extra cash to keep around either.
... or, in general...
Quote from: Rothman on October 25, 2023, 11:28:49 AM
multiple options to pay your way
Quote from: HighwayStar on October 24, 2023, 12:10:11 PM
Quote from: kphoger on October 24, 2023, 12:03:51 PM
Quote from: hbelkins on October 24, 2023, 11:50:57 AM
Many people prefer cash because it's not contingent upon some electronic system failing to work.
I had to go to a car dealership to buy a wiper blade yesterday.
(Long story. This was the first time I've had to replace a wiper blade on this vehicle. I went to AutoZone and bought the correct length of my usual brand, only to get home and find out that Chevrolet decided to use a proprietary type of connection, such that a normal blade won't go on the arm. A few weeks ago, therefore, I went to a dealership to get one from the parts counter. They were out of stock and wouldn't be getting any new ones for who knows how long, due to the ongoing GM strike. So I went home, found one on Amazon, and ordered it for delivery. Time passed, and the order wasn't shipping, and then we got a notification that the seller was no longer in business with Amazon. Ugh. By this point, half the rubber element was flopping around on the windshield, and rain was coming up in the forecast. So yesterday, I went to a different dealership and bought one. I actually like these connectors better than the standard ones, but what a hassle...)
Anywho... The guy behind the parts counter ran my card. But the system was taking forever. So he voided the transaction and ran it again. Each of these steps took several minutes, so I probably had my new wiper blade in hand for like fifteen minutes or more, just waiting on payment to process. Finally, he handed me the receipt. It said "amount paid $0.00". But he said don't worry about that: it took my money just fine. "Hopefully just once", I half-joked.
So, in the end, I wasted a bunch of time, got an incorrect receipt, and left a bit uncertain that I hadn't been double-charged. All because I used a card instead of cash. If I had used cash, none of that would have been true.
But with cash if a mistake is made it can be difficult or impossible to ascertain what happened.
"I gave you a 20"
"No, it was a 10"
etc.
With a card, what you were charged is going to show up on the bill, and you can cross validate that against the receipt which should show cost of goods sold. Even if the receipt is wrong, you can still point to the price tag on the shelf or product for what you were supposed to pay.
Even better is the integration of credit cards by retailers. Every time I shop at Walmart I use my card, and without doing anything else my receipts and purchase history are on my Walmart account. Extremely convenient.
That's not the case with me. It's true when I do a walmart.com pickup or delivery order, but if want an in-store purchase to show up in my purchase history (which I do, because it makes reordering the item easier) I have to scan the bar code on the receipt with the Walmart app.
I just timed myself counting 60 quarters. 15.40 seconds. Doesn't really seem like much of an inconvenience to me...
Quote from: HighwayStar on October 24, 2023, 12:10:11 PM
But with cash if a mistake is made it can be difficult or impossible to ascertain what happened.
"I gave you a 20"
"No, it was a 10"
You put a camera in the ceiling, pointing down square at the counter, and train the cashier to set incoming money on the counter so it's visible to the camera. And then you set outgoing change on the counter too. Now if there's any dispute it's just a matter of checking the camera.
You can also just run the drawer anytime there's a dispute, and if you shorted the customer the drawer will come out over, but that takes more time.
I oppose this with a fiery passion. Unfortunately I expect 100% of Democrats in the House and Senate to vote Yes on this bill. There needs to be enough Republican support to kill this. I hope this gets challenged in court and gets Durbin expelled from office with a lifetime ban from ever holding any other position in office.
Quote from: Pink Jazz on October 25, 2023, 01:16:03 PM
I hope this gets challenged in court and gets Durbin expelled from office with a lifetime ban from ever holding any other position in office.
Which part of the bill is challengeable, and how is contributing to a bill that gets rejected by the courts (which happens all the time) worthy of expulsion?
Quote from: GaryV on October 25, 2023, 11:11:05 AM
I had only one unfortunate incident. I was traveling with my daughter's robotics team, my wife was at home. Our car got stolen from in front of our house. Sadly she had left her wallet in the car, so we had to cancel all our cards and get new ones. I was in charge of paying the team's entrance to Six Flags - fortunately it had been a prior charge and was already on the card and we got in.
Another time I had a charge for Broadway tickets charged to my card; I think it was at one of those same-day kiosk kind of things. I simply called up to dispute it saying we'd never been in New York it and the charge got removed, and we got a new card number. In the meantime I used one of my other cards.
Anyone remember traveler's checks?
I haven't used them myself, but I've seen my parents use them when I was a kid.
Quote from: 1 on October 25, 2023, 01:32:54 PM
Quote from: Pink Jazz on October 25, 2023, 01:16:03 PM
I hope this gets challenged in court and gets Durbin expelled from office with a lifetime ban from ever holding any other position in office.
Which part of the bill is challengeable, and how is contributing to a bill that gets rejected by the courts (which happens all the time) worthy of expulsion?
This bill is a blatant violation of the Bill of Attainder clause, since it specifically targets the credit card companies.
[rm rant about individual politician -S.]
That's not what a bill of attainder is.
Well, this escalated quickly.
There was a warning early on not to make it a partisan political issue. I don't see it that way anyway. Nevada's Congressional delegation is five Democrats and one Republican, and the Democrats have indicated skepticism because of how often travel rewards are used on trips to Las Vegas. I saw a statistic somewhere (don't remember where and have no idea about the validity) that several hundred thousand airline trips to Vegas each year are paid for with rewards points/miles.
Quote from: Scott5114 on October 25, 2023, 01:38:12 PM
That's not what a bill of attainder is.
Whew, I was suddenly thinking that 99% of our laws over the last 240 years were going to get scrapped because someone might get inconvenienced.
Quote from: Pink Jazz on October 25, 2023, 01:37:22 PM
Quote from: 1 on October 25, 2023, 01:32:54 PM
Quote from: Pink Jazz on October 25, 2023, 01:16:03 PM
I hope this gets challenged in court and gets Durbin expelled from office with a lifetime ban from ever holding any other position in office.
Which part of the bill is challengeable, and how is contributing to a bill that gets rejected by the courts (which happens all the time) worthy of expulsion?
This bill is a blatant violation of the Bill of Attainder clause, since it specifically targets the credit card companies.
[rm rant about individual politician -S.]
It would be a bill of attainder if they targeted a SINGLE credit card company.
No, no it wouldn't. A "bill of attainder" is a part of the criminal law. It is where a legislature, in this case the Congress, declares that some past act was criminal and then retroactively punishes the individual for the act that was legal at the time he committed it.
This is a discussion of banking regulations, which are a part of the civil law.
The clause has no application whatsoever to this discussion.
Basic civics. What a concept.
Quote from: SP Cook on October 26, 2023, 09:59:58 AM
Basic civics. What a concept.
Have you ever found anyone, besides yourself of course, to be wrong or mistaken about something without meriting some degree of derision?
Quote from: kphoger on October 25, 2023, 10:39:41 AM
Quote from: kalvado on October 25, 2023, 10:28:55 AM
strictly speaking, if you get a problem with a credit (not a debit) card, you don't loose anything. You may loose an option for easy purchase, but ...
This is the fact that seems to be escaping people.
For example, let's say you're on a road trip and relying on your credit card. Unbeknownst to you, the Phillips 66 pump you fill up at in Lubbock has a card skimmer. Four days later, you're checking your account while waiting for your lunch order at a Love's/Wendy's truck stop in Cheyenne, and you notice two fraudulent gas purchases at the Lubbock Phillips 66 station; you weren't even in Texas anymore when you supposedly purchased those tanks of gas. So you contact your credit card company to report the fraud, and they lock your card so they can investigate. You finish your Baconator, go back outside, and pull up to the pump. Now how do you pay?
I just pull out another credit card :-D
Let me pose an alternate quandary to you. You are on a road trip, and have serious transmission issues. You find a shop that can do the work, but its $3k. You are carrying $1k in cash for this trip because that should have been enough. Now what do you do? Hope you have a branch bank to get more cash? Possible, but you better have accounts with the top 5 largest banks and keep a total of $15k in them to be sure you have that branch nearby.
Or.
Just put it on the card?
You seem to have mixed up a "bill of attainder" with an "ex post facto law".
Bills of Attainder declares a person or group of persons' life and property forfeit without benefit of trial: from https://constitution.congress.gov/browse/essay/artI-S9-C3-1/ALDE_00013186/
QuoteThe bill of attainder, a parliamentary act sentencing to death one or more specific persons, was a device often resorted to in sixteenth, seventeenth and eighteenth century England for dealing with persons who had attempted, or threatened to attempt, to overthrow the government.
A bill of attainder also resulted in forfeiture of the target's property, including the right of the person's heirs to inherit it. Id. (In addition to the death sentence, attainder generally carried with it a 'corruption of blood,' which meant that the attainted party's heirs could not inherit his property.).
An Ex Post Facto Law would make a law against actions that were legal at the time they were done illegal, but does not convict them without a trial:
from https://constitution.congress.gov/browse/essay/artI-S9-C3-3-3/ALDE_00013193/['ex',%20'post',%20'facto',%20'law']
QuoteAs the phrase ex post facto (after the fact) suggests, the Ex Post Facto Clauses apply only to legislation that imposes or increases a punishment retroactively.
Quote from: HighwayStar on October 26, 2023, 10:25:11 AM
Let me pose an alternate quandary to you. You are on a road trip, and have serious transmission issues. You find a shop that can do the work, but its $3k. You are carrying $1k in cash for this trip because that should have been enough. Now what do you do? Hope you have a branch bank to get more cash? Possible, but you better have accounts with the top 5 largest banks and keep a total of $15k in them to be sure you have that branch nearby.
Or.
Just put it on the card?
Actually, many credit unions have CO-OP Shared Branch Network (https://co-opcreditunions.org/) which allows you to conduct banking services outside of your home area. But, that may not be possible if you break down in some small towns. Of course, at that point, I may be pulling out my auto membership for that free 200 mile tow to a more populated area with better repair selections.
Quote from: HighwayStar on October 26, 2023, 10:25:11 AM
Let me pose an alternate quandary to you. You are on a road trip, and have serious transmission issues. You find a shop that can do the work, but its $3k. You are carrying $1k in cash for this trip because that should have been enough. Now what do you do? Hope you have a branch bank to get more cash? Possible, but you better have accounts with the top 5 largest banks and keep a total of $15k in them to be sure you have that branch nearby.
Or.
Just put it on the card?
I'm not suggesting that it's wise to not carry a credit card at all. (My wife and I got rid of our only credit card a few years ago, but that was for other reasons not pertinent to the argument.) I'm suggesting that I prefer using cash as primary currency and plastic as backup, not the other way around.
So, in your scenario, I would use the credit card to pay for repairs. But I would have used cash for the 65 other transactions conducted on that road trip.
FYI, your hypothetical scenario was actually a real-life situation for me several years ago. When my friend's front wheel bearing broke in the middle of the Mexican desert one year, some of our group went to the AutoZone in Saltillo to buy a new one. On our mission trips to Mexico, I use cash exclusively for the entire trip, and I did not have enough MXN$ on hand to cover the cost of a new wheel bearing. So we called our bank's customer service department while driving to Saltillo, to make sure the international purchase wouldn't red-flag our card, then we paid for the part on plastic.
The only other time I've had a breakdown on a road trip—north of Naturita, CO—we were actually using plastic for travel expenses to begin with (not my preferred way of doing things, but we decided to try it out on that trip.) In that case, we not only had to pay a mechanic, but a couple of nights in a hotel as well.
Quote from: kkt on October 26, 2023, 10:29:52 AM
You seem to have mixed up a "bill of attainder" with an "ex post facto law".
Bills of Attainder declares a person or group of persons' life and property forfeit without benefit of trial: from https://constitution.congress.gov/browse/essay/artI-S9-C3-1/ALDE_00013186/
QuoteThe bill of attainder, a parliamentary act sentencing to death one or more specific persons, was a device often resorted to in sixteenth, seventeenth and eighteenth century England for dealing with persons who had attempted, or threatened to attempt, to overthrow the government.
A bill of attainder also resulted in forfeiture of the target's property, including the right of the person's heirs to inherit it. Id. (In addition to the death sentence, attainder generally carried with it a 'corruption of blood,' which meant that the attainted party's heirs could not inherit his property.).
An Ex Post Facto Law would make a law against actions that were legal at the time they were done illegal, but does not convict them without a trial:
from https://constitution.congress.gov/browse/essay/artI-S9-C3-3-3/ALDE_00013193/['ex',%20'post',%20'facto',%20'law']
QuoteAs the phrase ex post facto (after the fact) suggests, the Ex Post Facto Clauses apply only to legislation that imposes or increases a punishment retroactively.
That was my thought; that Pink Jazz was confusing Bill of Attainder with Ex Post Facto.
Or maybe he thinks that ending credit card rewards programs would be a type of bill of attainder because it would take away any accumulated rewards points.
Quote from: ZLoth on October 26, 2023, 11:13:15 AM
Quote from: HighwayStar on October 26, 2023, 10:25:11 AM
Let me pose an alternate quandary to you. You are on a road trip, and have serious transmission issues. You find a shop that can do the work, but its $3k. You are carrying $1k in cash for this trip because that should have been enough. Now what do you do? Hope you have a branch bank to get more cash? Possible, but you better have accounts with the top 5 largest banks and keep a total of $15k in them to be sure you have that branch nearby.
Or.
Just put it on the card?
Actually, many credit unions have CO-OP Shared Branch Network (https://co-opcreditunions.org/) which allows you to conduct banking services outside of your home area. But, that may not be possible if you break down in some small towns. Of course, at that point, I may be pulling out my auto membership for that free 200 mile tow to a more populated area with better repair selections.
Heh. That reminds me of my old credit union which boasted that it was part of a national ATM network that meant it could be used for free...
...except they didn't bother to tell me that just pertained to the credit union not charging an additional fee. Other banks and the other ATM owners? Yep.
Quote from: kphoger on October 26, 2023, 11:15:01 AM
I'm not suggesting that it's wise to not carry a credit card at all. (My wife and I got rid of our only credit card a few years ago, but that was for other reasons not pertinent to the argument.) I'm suggesting that I prefer using cash as primary currency and plastic as backup, not the other way around.
So, in your scenario, I would use the credit card to pay for repairs. But I would have used cash for the 65 other transactions conducted on that road trip.
FYI, your hypothetical scenario was actually a real-life situation for me several years ago. When my friend's front wheel bearing broke in the middle of the Mexican desert one year, some of our group went to the AutoZone in Saltillo to buy a new one. On our mission trips to Mexico, I use cash exclusively for the entire trip, and I did not have enough MXN$ on hand to cover the cost of a new wheel bearing. So we called our bank's customer service department while driving to Saltillo, to make sure the international purchase wouldn't red-flag our card, then we paid for the part on plastic.
The only other time I've had a breakdown on a road trip—north of Naturita, CO—we were actually using plastic for travel expenses to begin with (not my preferred way of doing things, but we decided to try it out on that trip.) In that case, we not only had to pay a mechanic, but a couple of nights in a hotel as well.
So make the other 65 transactions less convenient, significantly harder to track, and pay an additional 3-4% over what you otherwise would? To each their own, but if I am already carrying the card I would do that in a heartbeat. I reverse the setup and carry the cash as an emergency fund in case some place cannot take the credit card.
It's pretty easy to track your cash transactions. You look in your wallet and when the money isn't there that means you spent it.
If you're trying to keep a catalog of all of the transactions and categorize them and find out exactly how much you spent on each category, you're a nerd.
Quote from: Scott5114 on October 26, 2023, 01:35:47 PM
It's pretty easy to track your cash transactions. You look in your wallet and when the money isn't there that means you spent it.
...or someone took it.
Quote
If you're trying to keep a catalog of all of the transactions and categorize them and find out exactly how much you spent on each category, you're a nerd.
Yeah, tedious categorization is overkill, but keeping track of what you're spending and on what is just sound personal financial management.
Quote from: Scott5114 on October 26, 2023, 01:35:47 PM
If you're trying to keep a catalog of all of the transactions and categorize them and find out exactly how much you spent on each category, you're a nerd.
You would consider me the King of the nerds if you knew how I kept track of stuff.
Besides, don't you run a small biz? Don't tell me you don't micromanage every little transaction out of necessity as well.
Quote from: Rothman on October 26, 2023, 01:44:38 PM
Quote from: Scott5114 on October 26, 2023, 01:35:47 PM
If you're trying to keep a catalog of all of the transactions and categorize them and find out exactly how much you spent on each category, you're a nerd.
Yeah, tedious categorization is overkill, but keeping track of what you're spending and on what is just sound personal financial management.
I'm probably similar to SectorZ. Personal finance software makes this pretty easy. I use Moneydance, and every transaction gets categorized. I don't take a supermarket receipt and try to separate the laundry detergent from the food, it's all categorized as "groceries", but I do have a good handle on how much I'm spending, and on what; a couple clicks in Moneydance at the end of the month produces a nice list.
On the cash vs. cards debate: some people just should not use credit cards at all, if they have issues with self-discipline on spending. Buying things one can't quite afford, and then digging themselves a further hole by having to pay 19.99% interest on those purchases, is just a terrible way to manage one's financial life. For them, telling them they would be better off using a credit card is like offering drinks to a recovering alcoholic.
Fortunately I've never had that issue. I just got back from a 12-day road trip, and the only cash I used the entire time was the $5 bills I leave on the bed for the housekeeper when I'm staying multiple nights in a hotel.
Quote from: SectorZ on October 26, 2023, 01:58:00 PM
Quote from: Scott5114 on October 26, 2023, 01:35:47 PM
If you're trying to keep a catalog of all of the transactions and categorize them and find out exactly how much you spent on each category, you're a nerd.
You would consider me the King of the nerds if you knew how I kept track of stuff.
Besides, don't you run a small biz? Don't tell me you don't micromanage every little transaction out of necessity as well.
It was nerdy to do it when it required tediously entering every receipt. Now that it can be done virtually automatically its simply good financial management.
Also for certain things, like say trips, costs might be shared by several people. I did a trip a couple years ago like that. With everything on the card it was easy to split it after the trip was over.
Not on a nerdy level, but Chase gives you some spending breakdown for a credit card at the end of the year. Doesn't take any effort beyond clicking "here is your breakdown" link.
Of course it doesn't separate fruit and veggies from household items or unhealthy stuff in grocery recipes.
Quote from: HighwayStar on October 26, 2023, 12:41:50 PM
and pay an additional 3-4% over what you otherwise would?
Huh? How do I pay 3–4% extra when paying with cash?
Quote from: Scott5114 on October 26, 2023, 01:35:47 PM
It's pretty easy to track your cash transactions. You look in your wallet and when the money isn't there that means you spent it.
Actually, it's like this: take out $650 in cash before the trip, get home, count what's left, and do subtraction. It's pretty easy.
Quote from: Scott5114 on October 26, 2023, 01:35:47 PM
If you're trying to keep a catalog of all of the transactions and categorize them and find out exactly how much you spent on each category, you're a nerd.
I do. Here's how it works: write the amounts down on a piece of paper. Or, what about this: keep the receipts.
On our church mission trips, I itemize the entire budget expense-by-expense and get exactly that amount of USD$ and MXN$ from the bank before the trip. Then, as the trip goes along, I write down the actual amount spent on each line item and how much I went over/under budget. I then balance those sheets against the remaining cash when I return home. Each expense category gets its own plastic baggie full of cash during the trip, into which I also put any receipts. My goal is to balance it down to the penny. I was less than a dollar off on this last trip—and it frustrated me that it wasn't zero—which I suspect was due to either miscounted change by a cashier or rounding at the register that I didn't make note of. Then I turn in an expense report, which I prepare in Excel in chronological order by transaction date and time, to turn in to church staff along with the remaining cash. The remaining USD$ goes back in the bank, and the remaining MXN$ goes in the safe till next trip.
Quote from: gonealookin on October 26, 2023, 02:05:26 PM
and then digging themselves a further hole by having to pay 19.99% interest on those purchases
That's a bargain these days. I've seen a recent story reporting over 30% interest for a credit card balance.
Quote from: kphoger on October 26, 2023, 02:59:40 PM
Quote from: HighwayStar on October 26, 2023, 12:41:50 PM
and pay an additional 3-4% over what you otherwise would?
Huh? How do I pay 3–4% extra when paying with cash?
Excluding the places discussed above that tack on the extra charge for using a credit card, you're not getting the rebate that comes in the form of the credit card's rewards program.
Most people with acceptable credit can get, at minimum, a no-fee card that gives a 1.5% cashback rebate on all charges. Further, if you have several cards, each giving double points on different categories of spending, you can increase the effective rate by dedicating each card to those categories. Example: I have an American Airlines-branded card with Citi, with no annual fee, that gives me double miles on grocery purchases. The Points Guy values American Advantage Miles at 1.5 cents each (https://thepointsguy.com/guide/monthly-valuations/), so that's a 3% rebate. (In fact, American sometimes has Web specials; for one future flight I've booked they only charged 6,000 miles when the cash airfare was around $250, making each mile worth 4 cents and making my grocery rebate an effective 8%).
Also, with interest rates now non-zero on many places where one holds cash, and assuming you pay your credit card bill in full each month, by taking advantage of the "float" (at least 20 days from the day your monthly statement comes out to the date payment is due, plus the time between the date of the charge and the issuance of that statement) you are collecting interest for a period from 20 to 50 days on the amount of each charge.
Quote from: kphoger on October 26, 2023, 02:59:40 PM
Huh? How do I pay 3–4% extra when paying with cash?
You would be getting cash back with a card, you get none of that with cash. Therefore you are paying more.
Quote from: kphoger on October 26, 2023, 02:59:40 PM
Actually, it's like this: take out $650 in cash before the trip, get home, count what's left, and do subtraction. It's pretty easy.
That tells me nothing about how much went to gas vs food vs entertainment or anything else. It also requires me to go to a bank and get money, which I don't bother with when using a card.
Quote from: kphoger on October 26, 2023, 02:59:40 PM
I do. Here's how it works: write the amounts down on a piece of paper. Or, what about this: keep the receipts.
That is significantly more effort than it happening automatically in the background.
Back in the day I did write things, and keep receipts, it was a far more time consuming process than using the card has ever been.
Quote from: GaryV on October 26, 2023, 03:16:02 PM
Quote from: gonealookin on October 26, 2023, 02:05:26 PM
and then digging themselves a further hole by having to pay 19.99% interest on those purchases
That's a bargain these days. I've seen a recent story reporting over 30% interest for a credit card balance.
If you are paying any interest on a credit card you are using it wrong.
Quote from: SP Cook on October 26, 2023, 09:59:58 AM
No, no it wouldn't. A "bill of attainder" is a part of the criminal law. It is where a legislature, in this case the Congress, declares that some past act was criminal and then retroactively punishes the individual for the act that was legal at the time he committed.
That is a 'ex post facto' ('After the Fact') law.
Mike
Quote from: HighwayStar on October 26, 2023, 04:15:39 PM
Quote from: GaryV on October 26, 2023, 03:16:02 PM
Quote from: gonealookin on October 26, 2023, 02:05:26 PM
and then digging themselves a further hole by having to pay 19.99% interest on those purchases
That's a bargain these days. I've seen a recent story reporting over 30% interest for a credit card balance.
If you are paying any interest on a credit card you are using it wrong.
^This.
If you have to pay interest, don't get a card.
Must be pretty fucking nice to have the luxury of paying off your CC every month.
Quote from: triplemultiplex on October 27, 2023, 10:00:30 AM
Must be pretty fucking nice to have the luxury of paying off your CC every month.
Millions do it. I used to carry a balance, and got into some decent debt. When I refied my house around 2011 to take advantage of lower rates, I added to the loan enough money to pay off my CC debt, and said never again. 12 years since; I've never carried a balance on a CC.
Quote from: jeffandnicole on October 27, 2023, 10:04:29 AM
Quote from: triplemultiplex on October 27, 2023, 10:00:30 AM
Must be pretty fucking nice to have the luxury of paying off your CC every month.
Millions do it. I used to carry a balance, and got into some decent debt. When I refied my house around 2011 to take advantage of lower rates, I added to the loan enough money to pay off my CC debt, and said never again. 12 years since; I've never carried a balance on a CC.
Been there, done that, no T-shirt.
Quote from: triplemultiplex on October 27, 2023, 10:00:30 AM
Must be pretty fucking nice to have the luxury of paying off your CC every month.
I carried CC debt for a short while early on after college. Having it sucks.
Rice and beans, beans and rice or whatever Dave Ramsey says...
Quote from: triplemultiplex on October 27, 2023, 10:00:30 AM
Must be pretty fucking nice to have the luxury of paying off your CC every month.
It's not hard. Just don't spend more than you would if you were using cash for everything.
Quote from: vdeane on October 27, 2023, 01:02:30 PM
Quote from: triplemultiplex on October 27, 2023, 10:00:30 AM
Must be pretty fucking nice to have the luxury of paying off your CC every month.
It's not hard. Just don't spend more than you would if you were using cash for everything.
I never carry a balance, either. Don't spend what you don't have, you'll be amazed at the cash savings. I mainly use the CC for a couple of minor recurring bills and as a secure way to transmitting money (ie, with one-time online purchases).
Mike
Quote from: vdeane on October 27, 2023, 01:02:30 PM
Quote from: triplemultiplex on October 27, 2023, 10:00:30 AM
Must be pretty fucking nice to have the luxury of paying off your CC every month.
It's not hard. Just don't spend more than you would if you were using cash for everything.
That's sort of like saying "Flying is easy, just don't touch the ground as much as you are now".
It would be a lot easier if everyone in America didn't have their hand out begging to be paid more money than you have for
fucking everything.
Quote from: Scott5114 on October 27, 2023, 02:24:32 PM
Quote from: vdeane on October 27, 2023, 01:02:30 PM
Quote from: triplemultiplex on October 27, 2023, 10:00:30 AM
Must be pretty fucking nice to have the luxury of paying off your CC every month.
It's not hard. Just don't spend more than you would if you were using cash for everything.
That's sort of like saying "Flying is easy, just don't touch the ground as much as you are now".
It would be a lot easier if everyone in America didn't have their hand out begging to be paid more money than you have for fucking everything.
The prescription of "it's all about spending discipline, just live within your means" tends to be easiest for single people. Yes, it should be easy for anyone to resist commercial pressure to upgrade from the iPhone 47 to the iPhone 48, but there are other tougher pressures to spend. Children in particular can be expensive as hell.
Even being single, I had the issue of a mother who married, divorced, married, divorced, never saved anything and then thought I was her retirement financial plan. Fortunately for me she raised me to be able to say No to people pressuring me to do drugs, give them money, whatever. Of course I was "ungrateful", "should act like I care" and the consequence of it was that she and I had a very distant relationship for the final 20 years of her life.
Quote from: gonealookin on October 27, 2023, 02:41:04 PM
The prescription of "it's all about spending discipline, just live within your means" tends to be easiest for single people. Yes, it should be easy for anyone to resist commercial pressure to upgrade from the iPhone 47 to the iPhone 48, but there are other tougher pressures to spend. Children in particular can be expensive as hell.
Also... Never have a major mechanical failuire on your car. Never get laid off. Never require a long hospital stay. Etc.
Yep. I more or less live within my means to the extent possible (i.e. I barely spend money on anything fun), and I can make paying cash for all of my usual expenses work. But when we suddenly need a new tire or something, that goes on credit. Since all of the income is immediately going out the door to the usual expenses, there's really not anything I can magically pull out of my ass to pay off the credit card. So throwing fifty bucks at it here and there has to do.
The income side of the equation is where conservative spending advice breaks down. Ends up with someone sputtering, "Then you just need a better job!"
To be fair, I was thinking less about people who wouldn't be able to afford all they need to without credit, and more about the people who seem not to notice how much they spend if they're not physically handing out cash. Granted, I'm so aware of how bad credit card interest and fees are that I probably wouldn't think "use credit to pay for it" if I was ever short on cash in the first place. Heck, I even continued paying my student loans when I was unemployed because I knew that taking a forbearance would only make things worse (since interest keeps accumulating and the payoff date doesn't change, which means my payments would have gone up significantly if I had).
Let me start off by saying I'm a technician, not a financial advisor. :sombrero: Having been in debt in order to achieve my degree, I have lost track of the number of weekend shifts and holiday shifts that I've worked to get rid of that debt, not to mention an extended stint at overnight shift with pay differential. I would have been out of debt sooner had I not also did some long-term savings as well such as funding a 401(k)... in other words, items that have or would help me in the future (aka "Pay Yourself First"). But, it also meant that I have to make things last, including nudging some technology along to make it last, although it helped that I paid extra when I built the systems to make it last longer.
At a macro level, I understand the "pay cash for everything" idea as a concept because you feel every dollar pass through your hand. In practice, not so much and it isn't realistic to send cash through the mail (that's why we have checks) plus standing in how many lines to pay the various bills. I prefer that all of my bills are charged to my credit card. While it doesn't have the best interest rate, it doesn't matter as I pay it off every month. However, it also has rewards that I can actually which paid for some improvements around my home, including a new washer/dryer and microwave oven. You need to have a good credit score if you decide to finance a home or automobile.
When it comes down to debt, it's important to realize that not all debt is bad.... just most of it. If you itemize your Federal taxes, then the mortgage interest and property taxes (up to $10,000) is tax deductible. Also, if you were able to take advantage of the low mortgage interest rates especially during 2019-2021, then it is probably a bad idea to try and pay off that mortgage early when you can invest that extra payment into investments and get a better return. I did pay extra at the beginning of my refinance when the escrow was refunded from my original mortgage, and it went straight in as a principal payment into my refinance. And, I do pay to the next highest $100. :)
As for the credit card debt, here is my advice. See if it sounds familiar:
- Shop around for the lowest interest rate.
- Contact your current credit card provider and make them match or exceed that lowest interest rate.
- Go through your expenses and ask yourself if you really need the service, or is it a nice to have. For streaming services, ask if it's necessary, or can you substitute one of the free-but-advertiser supported service like PlutoTV, FreeVee, or Tubi
- For the existing services such as mobile phone, contact their cancellation department and see if you can get a better rate on the service. Mobile numbers are portable from provider to provider.
- Investigate and take advantage of existing benefits that your employer may already offer, whether it be education reimbursement or prepaid legal services. I just used that to update my trust for myself and the will for my mother. This also applies to services that may already be bundled such as streaming plans with your internet provider or mobile provider, or notary and passport photo services with your auto club plan.
- Make sure you have an emergency fund that exceeds at least your highest deductible. Unfortunately in Texas, that is your homeowners deductible which is either 1, 1½, or 2% of your home value. :banghead:
- For non-essential or "nice to have items", use a free service such as CamelCamelCamel (https://markholtz.info/camelcamelcamel) for Amazon to be alerted of a low price. For video games that are going for $60-$70 at release (and tend to be patched), I wait until the price drops to $15 for a title that I want.
One trick that I do is that I have two credit cards, a higher interest one with rewards and a lower interest one through my credit union without. So occasionally I will run a charge on the rewards account, use the rewards cash to pay down the balance, and then transfer the balance over to the lower-interest card.
Quote from: ZLoth on October 28, 2023, 10:32:05 AM
As for the credit card debt, here is my advice. See if it sounds familiar:
[...]
And what do you recommend if there's still debt after all of that? Perhaps because your wife's employer pays 33% of market rate, but they're the only ones that will hire her in the godforsaken city you live in?
At a certain point you cannot cancel any more services. I keep trying to cancel the cell phone plan (we have Internet at home) but for some reason my wife won't let me.
Pretty cute thinking you can just will an emergency fund into existence when you're dealing with that...
Quote from: kphoger on October 27, 2023, 02:49:36 PM
Quote from: gonealookin on October 27, 2023, 02:41:04 PM
The prescription of "it's all about spending discipline, just live within your means" tends to be easiest for single people. Yes, it should be easy for anyone to resist commercial pressure to upgrade from the iPhone 47 to the iPhone 48, but there are other tougher pressures to spend. Children in particular can be expensive as hell.
Also... Never have a major mechanical failuire on your car. Never get laid off. Never require a long hospital stay. Etc.
A credit card is still a poor way to finance any of those things unless it has a low intro rate or something like that. Emergencies like that are better funded through other types of credit.
Yeah, although I think Dave Ramsey and similar advice is still flawed and weak on the side of how exactly to increase income, I do think there's merit to the idea of prioritizing one's financial actions.
For instance, not worrying about retirement at all until one is able to save up a month's worth of expenses. In my experience, the pittance I threw into retirement when I still had debt was idiotic in hindsight, especially with the financial flexibility that comes once one is out of debt that isn't a mortgage or car (and even moreso once you can get out of thise debts). "Why wasn't I smarter about money sooner?"
Of course, for people whose income doesn't even cover their basic expenses, choices are limited and severe (e.g., you own more house than you can afford? Sell it...).
Still, working on saving something of an emergency fund, getting needed insurance, eliminating debt and THEN considering home ownership, retirement and education savings for kids and whatnot is a pretty sound linear chain of priorities, with of course that first step being one of the hardest.
Kristing Wiig's sputtering Suze Orman does come to mind...
Quote from: HighwayStar on October 28, 2023, 01:21:38 PM
Quote from: kphoger on October 27, 2023, 02:49:36 PM
Quote from: gonealookin on October 27, 2023, 02:41:04 PM
The prescription of "it's all about spending discipline, just live within your means" tends to be easiest for single people. Yes, it should be easy for anyone to resist commercial pressure to upgrade from the iPhone 47 to the iPhone 48, but there are other tougher pressures to spend. Children in particular can be expensive as hell.
Also... Never have a major mechanical failuire on your car. Never get laid off. Never require a long hospital stay. Etc.
A credit card is still a poor way to finance any of those things unless it has a low intro rate or something like that. Emergencies like that are better funded through other types of credit.
Like what?
I wouldn't imagine it's all that easy to get approved for new lines of credit when you've been laid off. ("And what is your expected monthly income? $0? I see.") And I also don't imagine it's all that good an idea when you depend on your car to get to work to have to wait for the bank's Bow Tie Wearing department to pass your application upstairs to the Hastily Applying Rubber Stamps department, so they can send it over to the Cocaine Snorting department, and from there to the Pinstripes Department...
Quote from: Rothman on October 28, 2023, 01:29:48 PM
Still, working on saving something of an emergency fund, getting needed insurance, eliminating debt and THEN considering home ownership, retirement and education savings for kids and whatnot is a pretty sound linear chain of priorities, with of course that first step being one of the hardest.
True, but if we could choose the order that things happen in, I think we'd all choose to be millionaires first and then have the expenses start up. In my life, I was doing fine financially, decided to get a house, and
then the Bullshit started. Wife got forced into a lower paying job, I had to change mine for the sake of my own sanity, and then...congratulations, credit card debt!
Quote from: Scott5114 on October 28, 2023, 01:36:37 PM
Quote from: Rothman on October 28, 2023, 01:29:48 PM
Still, working on saving something of an emergency fund, getting needed insurance, eliminating debt and THEN considering home ownership, retirement and education savings for kids and whatnot is a pretty sound linear chain of priorities, with of course that first step being one of the hardest.
True, but if we could choose the order that things happen in, I think we'd all choose to be millionaires first and then have the expenses start up. In my life, I was doing fine financially, decided to get a house, and then the Bullshit started. Wife got forced into a lower paying job, I had to change mine for the sake of my own sanity, and then...congratulations, credit card debt!
Did you have to sell your house?
No, thankfully. I don't have enough credit card debt to justify doing that (it's only roughly 5% of the equity in the house).
Quote from: Scott5114 on October 28, 2023, 01:42:11 PM
No, thankfully. I don't have enough credit card debt to justify doing that (it's only roughly 5% of the equity in the house).
Well, what are you complaining about, then? You've got your house, you've got food on the table, you've accepted the level of credit card debt you've got. Everything's coming up Oklahoma Scott! :D
Quote from: Scott5114 on October 28, 2023, 12:28:51 PM
Quote from: ZLoth on October 28, 2023, 10:32:05 AM
As for the credit card debt, here is my advice. See if it sounds familiar:
[...]
And what do you recommend if there's still debt after all of that? Perhaps because your wife's employer pays 33% of market rate, but they're the only ones that will hire her in the godforsaken city you live in?
Welcome to difficult choices. It's called life. And, unfortunately, there are too many people with the same sad story. It makes me want to punch any person who says "Young people have it so good nowadays." No, they don't. Chances are, these are the same people who state "Nobody wants to work anymore." No, sir, not at the wages you are offering that barely cover the rent. Perhaps take on a second job? :banghead:
Life is full of hard decisions, some of them not desired. Five years ago next month, when the department I was in was eliminated in favor of another location, I had a choice: Either job relocate to the new location or find a new position in Sacramento. If you want to job relocate you have to be in Dallas by the following January. I chose Dallas because the career opportunities were better in Dallas than they were in California, and a job relocation would allow me to easily purchase a home.
And that's why we're going to relocate to Las Vegas. Much better career opportunities there for her. Cost of living is higher, but with the wage increase it should balance out, so on balance we'll be in about the same place but with far more options.
The tricky part has been figuring out where the money to fix up the house for sale and actually do the move will come from.
I'm reminded of Indecent Proposal, for some reason.
There's a lot of "just stop being poor!" in this thread.
Quote from: Scott5114 on October 28, 2023, 01:36:37 PM
Like what?
I wouldn't imagine it's all that easy to get approved for new lines of credit when you've been laid off. ("And what is your expected monthly income? $0? I see.") And I also don't imagine it's all that good an idea when you depend on your car to get to work to have to wait for the bank's Bow Tie Wearing department to pass your application upstairs to the Hastily Applying Rubber Stamps department, so they can send it over to the Cocaine Snorting department, and from there to the Pinstripes Department...
Banks don't work anything like that.
Your goalpost has moved to X emergency plus no job. That is different than X emergency which must be partially financed with credit, for that there are many options, home equity loans, title loans, credit union offerings, and numerous fin-tech type loans that have emerged in the last 20 years.
Without a job a new line of credit is hard to get, for good reason, you need income to make payments.
And again none of this changes the fact that a credit card is a poor way to borrow money. It is what it is.
Quote from: HighwayStar on October 28, 2023, 07:07:35 PM
Quote from: Scott5114 on October 28, 2023, 01:36:37 PM
Like what?
I wouldn't imagine it's all that easy to get approved for new lines of credit when you've been laid off. ("And what is your expected monthly income? $0? I see.") And I also don't imagine it's all that good an idea when you depend on your car to get to work to have to wait for the bank's Bow Tie Wearing department to pass your application upstairs to the Hastily Applying Rubber Stamps department, so they can send it over to the Cocaine Snorting department, and from there to the Pinstripes Department...
Banks don't work anything like that.
Your goalpost has moved to X emergency plus no job. That is different than X emergency which must be partially financed with credit, for that there are many options, home equity loans, title loans, credit union offerings, and numerous fin-tech type loans that have emerged in the last 20 years.
Without a job a new line of credit is hard to get, for good reason, you need income to make payments.
And again none of this changes the fact that a credit card is a poor way to borrow money. It is what it is.
Changing the goalposts?
Quote from: kphoger on October 27, 2023, 02:49:36 PM
Also... Never have a major mechanical failuire on your car. Never get laid off. Never require a long hospital stay. Etc.
Quote from: HighwayStar on October 28, 2023, 01:21:38 PM
A credit card is still a poor way to finance any of those things unless it has a low intro rate or something like that. Emergencies like that are better funded through other types of credit.
Quote from: kphoger on October 27, 2023, 02:49:36 PM
Also... Never have a major mechanical failuire on your car. Never get laid off. Never require a long hospital stay. Etc.
Quote from: HighwayStar on October 28, 2023, 01:21:38 PM
A credit card is still a poor way to finance any of those things unless it has a low intro rate or something like that. Emergencies like that are better funded through other types of credit.
Quote from: kphoger on October 27, 2023, 02:49:36 PM
Also... Never have a major mechanical failuire on your car. Never get laid off. Never require a long hospital stay. Etc.
Quote from: HighwayStar on October 28, 2023, 01:21:38 PM
A credit card is still a poor way to finance any of those things unless it has a low intro rate or something like that. Emergencies like that are better funded through other types of credit.
Quote from: kphoger on October 27, 2023, 02:49:36 PM
Also... Never have a major mechanical failuire on your car. Never get laid off. Never require a long hospital stay. Etc.
Quote from: HighwayStar on October 28, 2023, 01:21:38 PM
A credit card is still a poor way to finance any of those things unless it has a low intro rate or something like that. Emergencies like that are better funded through other types of credit.
And again none of this changes the fact that you have poor reading comprehension. It is what it is.
Quote from: Takumi on October 28, 2023, 03:28:55 PM
There's a lot of "just stop being poor!" in this thread.
I'm not seeing that.
I think we can all acknowledge that some people are truly dealt such a bad hand that no amount of good financial practice would help.
But we can also acknowledge that many/most people are not particularly good with finances, and more than a few are simply terrible at it.
I'm not the biggest Dave Ramsey fan in the world, some of his debt avoidance advice is a bit questionable, but the old fashioned American approach of hard work and thrift is a good one.
Ever notice how the people who preach hard work as a cure for all ills are the same ones who benefit more than you do from you working hard?
Quote from: Scott5114 on October 28, 2023, 07:14:54 PM
Ever notice how the people who preach hard work as a cure for all ills are the same ones who benefit more than you do from you working hard?
I, for one, never assumed that working hard is an answer for anything. Working smart may help.
So someone working hard means one less competition....
Quote from: kalvado on October 28, 2023, 07:44:39 PM
Quote from: Scott5114 on October 28, 2023, 07:14:54 PM
Ever notice how the people who preach hard work as a cure for all ills are the same ones who benefit more than you do from you working hard?
I, for one, never assumed that working hard is an answer for anything. Working smart may help.
So someone working hard means one less competition....
The two are not mutually exclusive. Most highly successful people do both.
Quote from: HighwayStar on October 28, 2023, 07:50:36 PM
Quote from: kalvado on October 28, 2023, 07:44:39 PM
Quote from: Scott5114 on October 28, 2023, 07:14:54 PM
Ever notice how the people who preach hard work as a cure for all ills are the same ones who benefit more than you do from you working hard?
I, for one, never assumed that working hard is an answer for anything. Working smart may help.
So someone working hard means one less competition....
The two are not mutually exclusive. Most highly successful people do both.
Gonna stick my neck out that the empty and overused phrase "work smarter, not harder" doesn't actually do anything in and of itself.
Quote from: Scott5114 on October 28, 2023, 07:14:54 PM
Ever notice how the people who preach hard work as a cure for all ills are the same ones who benefit more than you do from you working hard?
Eh, I just put it down as one more bad take from someone who's full of them.
I can relate to a lot of what's being said here. I have wracked my brain the last 10 years trying to figure out how to make some extra money, without any luck. I'm basically a dinosaur with my skill set. 30 years ago I was able to pick up a little extra cash by writing resumes, doing typesetting, etc., but now that everyone has a computer with resume-writing programs, spelling and grammar checkers, etc., who needs those services? It's frustrating. And since I don't have the aptitude or the physical skills for home repair, car repair, etc., I end up having to pay anytime I need those services done.
Quote from: vdeane on October 27, 2023, 01:02:30 PM
Quote from: triplemultiplex on October 27, 2023, 10:00:30 AM
Must be pretty fucking nice to have the luxury of paying off your CC every month.
It's not hard. Just don't spend more than you would if you were using cash for everything.
Gee, why didn't
I think of that? ...
Guess I shouldn't have gone and bought that extravagant replacement part for my vehicle that lets me use it for something other than a lawn ornament.
Quote from: jeffandnicole on October 27, 2023, 10:04:29 AM
When I refied my house around 2011 to take advantage of lower rates, I added to the loan enough money to pay off my CC debt, and said never again. 12 years since; I've never carried a balance on a CC.
This might as well say, "I just sold one of my vacation homes to pay off my credit card" to those of us priced out of owning real estate.
Look, man, you live on a budget and there's an unexpected expense. Then right when you've about got that paid for, there's another unexpected expense. You can try and build up a buffer to accommodate that type of thing, but shit happens. And sometimes that involves putting something large and necessary on a credit card that takes several months to pay down.
So I find the whole "I pay off my credit card every month, and you're doing something wrong if you're not," thing to be dripping in the ignorance of privilege.
Quote from: hbelkins on October 29, 2023, 09:30:45 PM
I can relate to a lot of what's being said here. I have wracked my brain the last 10 years trying to figure out how to make some extra money, without any luck. I'm basically a dinosaur with my skill set. 30 years ago I was able to pick up a little extra cash by writing resumes, doing typesetting, etc., but now that everyone has a computer with resume-writing programs, spelling and grammar checkers, etc., who needs those services? It's frustrating. And since I don't have the aptitude or the physical skills for home repair, car repair, etc., I end up having to pay anytime I need those services done.
There is still a market for resume skills, since merely possessing a computer does not make most people good at crafting them.
Quote from: triplemultiplex on October 30, 2023, 11:00:51 AM
Quote from: vdeane on October 27, 2023, 01:02:30 PM
Quote from: triplemultiplex on October 27, 2023, 10:00:30 AM
Must be pretty fucking nice to have the luxury of paying off your CC every month.
It's not hard. Just don't spend more than you would if you were using cash for everything.
Gee, why didn't I think of that? ...
Guess I shouldn't have gone and bought that extravagant replacement part for my vehicle that lets me use it for something other than a lawn ornament.
As I mentioned, I approached the comment from the perspective of people racking up a ton of debt because they can't "see" the money they spend, not people living paycheck to paycheck who use that to float an expense that they don't have the cash for. Although interest rates on credit cards are so high that my frugal nature might balk anyways. I am the person who kept paying student loans when unemployed with no income to keep the payments from increasing once I got reemployed, after all (good thing I did, finances were tight by my standards the first couple years after). Fortunately I've never been in that situation, so it's hard to say how I'd handle it if I were.
Quote from: triplemultiplex on October 30, 2023, 11:00:51 AM
Quote from: vdeane on October 27, 2023, 01:02:30 PM
Quote from: triplemultiplex on October 27, 2023, 10:00:30 AM
Must be pretty fucking nice to have the luxury of paying off your CC every month.
It's not hard. Just don't spend more than you would if you were using cash for everything.
Gee, why didn't I think of that? ...
Guess I shouldn't have gone and bought that extravagant replacement part for my vehicle that lets me use it for something other than a lawn ornament.
Quote from: jeffandnicole on October 27, 2023, 10:04:29 AM
When I refied my house around 2011 to take advantage of lower rates, I added to the loan enough money to pay off my CC debt, and said never again. 12 years since; I've never carried a balance on a CC.
This might as well say, "I just sold one of my vacation homes to pay off my credit card" to those of us priced out of owning real estate.
Look, man, you live on a budget and there's an unexpected expense. Then right when you've about got that paid for, there's another unexpected expense. You can try and build up a buffer to accommodate that type of thing, but shit happens. And sometimes that involves putting something large and necessary on a credit card that takes several months to pay down.
So I find the whole "I pay off my credit card every month, and you're doing something wrong if you're not," thing to be dripping in the ignorance of privilege.
Ok, but it doesn't seem like you know the solution to your financial situation...otherwise you would have implemented it, right?
Unfortunately, "robbing a bank" is illegal for some reason.
Quote from: Scott5114 on October 30, 2023, 02:57:48 PM
Unfortunately, "robbing a bank" is illegal for some reason.
So...not a solution, then.
Quote from: Rothman on October 30, 2023, 07:46:10 PM
Quote from: Scott5114 on October 30, 2023, 02:57:48 PM
Unfortunately, "robbing a bank" is illegal for some reason.
So...not a solution, then.
It is if you're not a coward.
Quote from: Scott5114 on October 30, 2023, 09:02:31 PM
Quote from: Rothman on October 30, 2023, 07:46:10 PM
Quote from: Scott5114 on October 30, 2023, 02:57:48 PM
Unfortunately, "robbing a bank" is illegal for some reason.
So...not a solution, then.
It is if you're not a coward.
You just have to name it properly.
Housing is a human right. Money are essential for human existence.
Quote from: kalvado on October 30, 2023, 09:59:49 PM
Quote from: Scott5114 on October 30, 2023, 09:02:31 PM
Quote from: Rothman on October 30, 2023, 07:46:10 PM
Quote from: Scott5114 on October 30, 2023, 02:57:48 PM
Unfortunately, "robbing a bank" is illegal for some reason.
So...not a solution, then.
It is if you're not a coward.
You just have to name it properly.
What if you name it like this (https://www.rabobank.com/)?
(filed under "could be from the Grand Theft Auto videogame series, but is not")
I mentioned in the "$10 and under" thread that Uno now has a 2.5% "CC TRANS FEE" (which is a credit card transaction fee, not a fee for being trans). I paid cash, so I didn't pay it. Massachusetts law says the maximum difference allowed is 4%, and I believe this is the first restaurant I've seen that isn't the full 4% and also the first one by a chain. Hopefully this means that their menu prices will remain constant for longer, as they consider this their price increase.
Yesterday, I went to a place in Lincoln MA. They had a "hospitality fee" of 3%. It applies to everyone. Unlike the credit card fee, this is ridiculous. I've seen a "5% higher" sign at the door elsewhere, but you know that walking in, it's basically "it's simpler to apply a flat increase than update the menu". This hospitality fee is hidden at the bottom of the menu, and that page of the menu isn't on the outside of the building where they display their menu. I had no idea I was going to pay it until I saw the check. And yes, I paid cash and still had to pay it.
Quote from: 1 on December 06, 2023, 07:27:53 AM
I mentioned in the "$10 and under" thread that Uno now has a 2.5% "CC TRANS FEE" (which is a credit card transaction fee, not a fee for being trans). I paid cash, so I didn't pay it. Massachusetts law says the maximum difference allowed is 4%, and I believe this is the first restaurant I've seen that isn't the full 4% and also the first one by a chain. Hopefully this means that their menu prices will remain constant for longer, as they consider this their price increase.
Yesterday, I went to a place in Lincoln MA. They had a "hospitality fee" of 3%. It applies to everyone. Unlike the credit card fee, this is ridiculous. I've seen a "5% higher" sign at the door elsewhere, but you know that walking in, it's basically "it's simpler to apply a flat increase than update the menu". This hospitality fee is hidden at the bottom of the menu, and that page of the menu isn't on the outside of the building where they display their menu. I had no idea I was going to pay it until I saw the check. And yes, I paid cash and still had to pay it.
I don't go to Uno's often, but did this weekend. Not only was I surprised at the fee, but actually a little surprised that it was lower than I've seen elsewhere.
In The Fairly competitive world of casual restaurants where Uno's isn't really a huge player to begin with, they're going to have to be careful this little fee doesn't turn away more customers then it's worth.
Quote from: 1 on December 06, 2023, 07:27:53 AM
I mentioned in the "$10 and under" thread that Uno now has a 2.5% "CC TRANS FEE" (which is a credit card transaction fee, not a fee for being trans). I paid cash, so I didn't pay it. Massachusetts law says the maximum difference allowed is 4%, and I believe this is the first restaurant I've seen that isn't the full 4% and also the first one by a chain. Hopefully this means that their menu prices will remain constant for longer, as they consider this their price increase.
A family-style restaurant near me imposed a 3% credit card fee for awhile. It didn't last long, maybe a few months. I'm guessing they lost a noticeable amount of business and/or got loads of flak from it.
QuoteYesterday, I went to a place in Lincoln MA. They had a "hospitality fee" of 3%. It applies to everyone. Unlike the credit card fee, this is ridiculous. I've seen a "5% higher" sign at the door elsewhere, but you know that walking in, it's basically "it's simpler to apply a flat increase than update the menu". This hospitality fee is hidden at the bottom of the menu, and that page of the menu isn't on the outside of the building where they display their menu. I had no idea I was going to pay it until I saw the check. And yes, I paid cash and still had to pay it.
If I had seen it on the menu, I probably would have walked out. The higher total price isn't what bothers me; I get it that their costs are increasing and I would rather they raise prices as needed to keep the same quality instead of holding the prices and cutting the quality to the eventual point that I'm wasting my money and won't go there again. What bothers me is the nickel and diming, and hiding it in half-point font at the bottom of the menu as you said. Just tell me the f****** price, everything included.
Quote from: 1 on December 06, 2023, 07:27:53 AM
I mentioned in the "$10 and under" thread that Uno now has a 2.5% "CC TRANS FEE" (which is a credit card transaction fee, not a fee for being trans). I paid cash, so I didn't pay it. Massachusetts law says the maximum difference allowed is 4%, and I believe this is the first restaurant I've seen that isn't the full 4% and also the first one by a chain. Hopefully this means that their menu prices will remain constant for longer, as they consider this their price increase.
Where did you find out that 4% thing? As far as I know, from looking at Mass General Laws still in effect plus other news stories that are from 2023, any credit card surcharge in Massachusetts is against the law.
https://www.telegram.com/story/business/2023/07/25/for-restaurants-in-massachusetts-credit-card-fees-leave-a-bad-taste/70461721007/
This story confirms the irony that a restaurant cannot pass on a credit card fee to customers, but a restaurant paying its meals tax receipts to the state has to pay a credit card surcharge if they choose to pay by that method, because government exempts itself from everything.