I could be wrong about this but it seems to me places like Nashville, Charlotte, Atlanta, Miami, Dallas ect have lots of malls that are doing well and not many dead ones. Yet there seems to be lots of dead malls in states like Ohio, Pennsylvania, New York, New Jersey ect. Given the cold winters months in the north I would think it would be the other way around. An factors as to why this is despite the weather being more favorable in the south that indoor malls aren't as needed?
Two words come to mind: Rust Belt. Economic decline in the northcentral USA resulted in less demand for commercial properties.
Garden state, willowbrook and even American Dream all in north NJ are usually all busy, especially during weekends. The density in which these malls also sit in could be a contributing factor tho
The malls in my area, including the Burlington Mall in MA (so not just the "no sales tax" malls), are thriving.
A lot of that is probably overall economic health. There isn't just dying malls in this part of the country - there's a lot of vacant retail in general. I'm convinced "new development" around where I live isn't actually adding anything on a net basis, just causing the retail that does exit to move around. For example, Barns and Noble moved into Colonie Center several years before I moved here. Part of it is now DXL, but most of it sits vacant except for the couple months of the year it spends as Spirit Halloween. And when Latham Circle Mall was redeveloped into a modern plaza, most of the storefronts sat empty for years, anchored by WalMart relocating from a nearby plaza. Neither plaza was at full capacity for a long time (actually, the older of the two still isn't). And the Capital District is doing better than most of upstate NY in terms of growth.
The south is also much more suburban and auto-focused. And let's face it: malls are built for people to get to/from them in their cars. Even if Crossgates is the endpoint for the new purple BRT line.
Probably doesn't hurt that on the whole they tend to be newer down south.
Quote from: dvferyance on November 07, 2023, 09:14:11 PM
I could be wrong about this but it seems to me places like Nashville, Charlotte, Atlanta, Miami, Dallas ect have lots of malls that are doing well and not many dead ones. Yet there seems to be lots of dead malls in states like Ohio, Pennsylvania, New York, New Jersey ect. Given the cold winters months in the north I would think it would be the other way around. An factors as to why this is despite the weather being more favorable in the south that indoor malls aren't as needed?
That's an interesting one I never thought about that one. I always thought Amazon, Target and Wal-Mart were killing off malls in the United States for some time. Especially Tanforan near my childhood home was in the process of becoming a Biotech complex. Well I noticed another thing that was interesting Malls were doing well in other countries like Philippines where SM and Robinsons take on bits of Big Box Stores and traditional malls but in that case I was in places like San Fernando, Pampanga and Metro Manila area where it was economically viable to have a mall there. https://www.mercurynews.com/2022/02/10/peninsula-mall-buy-328-million-mega-campus-tech-biotech-real-estate/
In the Detroit area Twelve Oaks Mall and Somerset Collection are doing fine but the rest of them are struggling. Both malls lost Lord & Taylor but that isn't the malls fault as they shut down completely, same with Sears pretty much even though Sears isn't officially dead.
Pennsylvania has a lot of struggling malls yet King of Prussia, one of the largest malls in the country, is doing just fine.
I wonder if Walmart and Target have to do with Hutchinson Mall in Kansas to be dead. Hutchinson is a regional city and is located 40 miles from Wichita the nearest large one, you would figure people from that city, which is pretty populated, would patronize the mall more. Plus nearby Nickerson, and Sterling too you would also figure would be customers of their nearest larger city as nether of them have no population for even a strip mall.
I'm guessing that Walmart, Target, and of course smaller regional outlets stores along with Amazon who delivers to your stoop caused the lack of demand here with no other malls around nearby to compete with and being the center for many square miles as well.
Quote from: dvferyance on November 07, 2023, 09:14:11 PM
I could be wrong about this but it seems to me places like Nashville, Charlotte, Atlanta, Miami, Dallas ect have lots of malls that are doing well and not many dead ones. Yet there seems to be lots of dead malls in states like Ohio, Pennsylvania, New York, New Jersey ect. Given the cold winters months in the north I would think it would be the other way around. An factors as to why this is despite the weather being more favorable in the south that indoor malls aren't as needed?
The only malls in NJ that are dying are those that never did all that well to begin with. Echelon Mall in Voorhees, Burlington Center Mall in Burlington and Cumberland Mall in Millville are three that come to mind. But I can rattle off a bunch, including Cherry Hill, Moorestown, Deptford, Quaker Bridge, Hamilton, etc that are still alive and kicking.
In New England, it's the smaller, more local, malls that are dying.
Berkshire Mall
Eastfield Mall
Enfield Mall
The Galleria
All small malls. All three dead, dying or, in the case of the Galleria, demolished.
The Westfarms Mall, the CT Post Mall, and to some extent the Buckland Hills Mall, are 1M sqft+ ans located in more affluent areas of CT and seem to be surviving just fine.
Quote from: jeffandnicole on November 09, 2023, 05:48:08 PM
Quote from: dvferyance on November 07, 2023, 09:14:11 PM
I could be wrong about this but it seems to me places like Nashville, Charlotte, Atlanta, Miami, Dallas ect have lots of malls that are doing well and not many dead ones. Yet there seems to be lots of dead malls in states like Ohio, Pennsylvania, New York, New Jersey ect. Given the cold winters months in the north I would think it would be the other way around. An factors as to why this is despite the weather being more favorable in the south that indoor malls aren't as needed?
The only malls in NJ that are dying are those that never did all that well to begin with. Echelon Mall in Voorhees, Burlington Center Mall in Burlington and Cumberland Mall in Millville are three that come to mind. But I can rattle off a bunch, including Cherry Hill, Moorestown, Deptford, Quaker Bridge, Hamilton, etc that are still alive and kicking.
Moorestown and Hamilton malls are also struggling. Cherry Hill, Deptford, and Quaker Bridge are doing fine though.
I think there's a cultural aspect to malls struggling in the Northeast, part of which stems from covid, when those states generally had more aggressive shutdowns and many malls were shuttered, or had mask mandates if they were open. As such, going to the mall just hasn't been as much of a "thing" since the covid pandemic; it took until last year to start to pick back up, and more so this year but it's still below pre-covid levels.
Here's an interesting article about online retail that shows it has taken off the most in the Northeast and on the West Coast while lagging in the Midwest and South: https://www.pcmag.com/news/online-shopping-has-skyrocketed-here-are-trends-in-your-state
Quote from: RobbieL2415 on November 09, 2023, 07:14:29 PM
In New England, it's the smaller, more local, malls that are dying.
Berkshire Mall
Eastfield Mall
Enfield Mall
The Galleria
All small malls. All three dead, dying or, in the case of the Galleria, demolished.
The Westfarms Mall, the CT Post Mall, and to some extent the Buckland Hills Mall, are 1M sqft+ ans located in more affluent areas of CT and seem to be surviving just fine.
And just think that 30 years ago, Mountain Farms Mall in Hadley was deemed dead and Hampshire Mall as the viable one, whereas their roles are practically reversed nowadays...
Wonder how the Holyoke Mall keeps chugging along...
Don't kid yourself, there are plenty of former malls in North Texas that are former for a reason — mainly due to shifting commercial patterns, newer development, Amazon, and very often crime. A dying mall is a sad sight.
It is fascinating to think about why some malls are dead, some are dying, and some are hanging on against the forces allayed against them. I wonder if a mall's health is tied to the overall economic conditions in their communities or external factors. For example, in the immediate area west of Boston, the former Arsenal Mall in Watertown, a typical 1980s-era mall, was demolished and redeveloped into the mixed-use Arsenal Yards. Just across the street, however, the Watertown Mall is something of a dying mall and would be dead were it not propped up by Best Buy, the RMV, a Dim Sum restaurant, and Target. I wouldn't be surprised if someone comes along with a redevelopment plan, as the area is changing rapidly.
Quote from: dvferyance on November 07, 2023, 09:14:11 PM
I could be wrong about this but it seems to me places like Nashville, Charlotte, Atlanta, Miami, Dallas ect have lots of malls that are doing well and not many dead ones. Yet there seems to be lots of dead malls in states like Ohio, Pennsylvania, New York, New Jersey ect. Given the cold winters months in the north I would think it would be the other way around. An factors as to why this is despite the weather being more favorable in the south that indoor malls aren't as needed?
Anchors are one issue. The Bon-Ton (Carson Pirie Scott) implosion affected a lot of northern malls from Montana to Maine. The Macy's (Federated) takeover of May Company also affected a lot of northern malls where both existed together. The South, by contrast, still has Belk and Dillard's in addition to JCPenney and Macy's.
It's an interesting question. I lived in Toledo, which went from four malls to one since I moved here in 2007. Three have already been demolished and the land is in the process of being redeveloped. The remaining mall, Franklin Park, is doing well. It's located next to the university and the wealthiest neighborhoods in the city.
Two "lifestyle centers", or large outdoor malls, have also opened in the region since 2007, one of them (Fallen Timbers) is half empty now, and probably should not have been built; the other Levis Commons, is struggling but doing alright. Levis Commons is the descendent of the downtown Portside, a failed festival marketplace built to give the wives of local corporate executives a place to shop. That has now been replaced by Levis, which is full of women-oriented boutiques and shops.
Perhaps one overlook aspect of this is the "mid-range" retail available in the Midwest - malls have been replaced largely by places like Kohl's, Meijer, Target and other retailers a step above Walmart, and I'm not sure how prevalent those are in the South.
Second, I'd argue that people in the North generally dress worse than people in the South. Activewear, hunting gear, and sweats seemed to have replaced much of people's wardrobes here in the last twenty years. I don't get that sense in much of the south. The demand for department store clothings, boutiques, and so on seems to have evaporated in places like Ohio.
As I said before, malls are not failing here in the north, although most of the other people here are talking about the Mid-Atlantic (including NY) and the Midwest rather than New England.
NH's malls are doing well for an obvious reason: no sales tax. However, MA has the Burlington Mall, which is doing quite well, and the North Shore Mall, which I don't go to often but looked fine when I was there.
The Woburn Mall, which was mentioned before, basically went from indoor to outdoor (with some store changes) rather than truly dying.
Here in New England, weather is good about 8 months of the year, being too cold for 4. In Florida, weather is good about 8 months of the year, being too hot for 4. I don't think weather has much to do with it.
Pfft. More like New England weather is cold from November through April.
As I say, spring is the one season New England sucks at.
My location:
High is 45°+: 9 months
High is 50°+: 8 months
High is 55°+: 7 months
High is 60°+: 6 months
50 is perfectly doable with a jacket.
Subtract a bit because not everyone goes at the warmest part of the day, but if you're on the ocean (milder temps) or in southern New England (farther south), add a few days.
Quote from: Rothman on November 09, 2023, 11:01:25 PM
Quote from: RobbieL2415 on November 09, 2023, 07:14:29 PM
In New England, it's the smaller, more local, malls that are dying.
Berkshire Mall
Eastfield Mall
Enfield Mall
The Galleria
All small malls. All three dead, dying or, in the case of the Galleria, demolished.
The Westfarms Mall, the CT Post Mall, and to some extent the Buckland Hills Mall, are 1M sqft+ ans located in more affluent areas of CT and seem to be surviving just fine.
And just think that 30 years ago, Mountain Farms Mall in Hadley was deemed dead and Hampshire Mall as the viable one, whereas their roles are practically reversed nowadays...
Wonder how the Holyoke Mall keeps chugging along...
Because I believe the nearest large mall, if it closed, would be Buckland.
In MN (I won't include the Mall of America because that's its own monster) Southdale in Edina seems to be the only one kind of stumbling these days.
There's plenty of dead malls in the south too...
Quote from: westerninterloper on November 10, 2023, 10:15:11 AM
It's an interesting question. I lived in Toledo, which went from four malls to one since I moved here in 2007. Three have already been demolished and the land is in the process of being redeveloped. The remaining mall, Franklin Park, is doing well. It's located next to the university and the wealthiest neighborhoods in the city.
Two "lifestyle centers", or large outdoor malls, have also opened in the region since 2007, one of them (Fallen Timbers) is half empty now, and probably should not have been built; the other Levis Commons, is struggling but doing alright. Levis Commons is the descendent of the downtown Portside, a failed festival marketplace built to give the wives of local corporate executives a place to shop. That has now been replaced by Levis, which is full of women-oriented boutiques and shops.
Perhaps one overlook aspect of this is the "mid-range" retail available in the Midwest - malls have been replaced largely by places like Kohl's, Meijer, Target and other retailers a step above Walmart, and I'm not sure how prevalent those are in the South.
Second, I'd argue that people in the North generally dress worse than people in the South. Activewear, hunting gear, and sweats seemed to have replaced much of people's wardrobes here in the last twenty years. I don't get that sense in much of the south. The demand for department store clothings, boutiques, and so on seems to have evaporated in places like Ohio.
I lived in Toledo (went to UT) in the relatively prosperous late 90s. The only mall that was doing well then was Franklin Park. The others were on their downward spiral even then. Fallen Timbers was in the planning stages and was somewhat controversial. For some reason, I'm not surprised it's not doing well.
Seems like most malls in Louisiana not named Lakeside S/C or Mall of Louisiana are struggling. The only reason many of them might survive in the near term is because they are the only malls in their region and have Dillards as an anchor.
In Baton Rouge, Cortana Mall closed in 2019 and has been replaced by an Amazon facility.
In New Orleans, Northshore Square closed in 2019, Esplanade Mall closed in 2021, and Clearview Mall is in redevelopment.
The pandemic accelerated the decline, but it was already happening for various reasons. A mall that failed to develop non-shopping uses in and around itself is going to struggle. If I have to invest a significant amount of time to visit a mall, it better damn well be worth the hassle.
Several national mall developers have also botched renovations that have hurt their properties. There's a pair of adjacent multi-level malls in Downtown Seattle (Pacific Place and Westlake Center) that took out good features in their renovations and are a shell of their former selves. Westlake Center should be buzzing more with the monorail's increased use, but they turned a convenient food court next to the terminal into an empty Sak's Off Fifth. Doesn't help that the adjacent Bon Marche (hijacked by Macy's) has only just been filled by its first new tenant (Uniqlo) in several years.
Quote from: ran4sh on November 10, 2023, 12:49:27 PM
There's plenty of dead malls in the south too...
Well there are but there tends to be more in the north. Take Cincy for example other than Kenwood and Florence their other malls are either dying or dead. One factor I could say is back in 2018 with the loss of the Bonton stores like Carson's Elder Beerman ect. They were in a lot of malls in the north while they had no presence in the south so it did not affect malls down there. What gets me is Dillard's was looking into expansion when Bonton closed they looked a Milwaukee said no they looked at Chicago said no then they looked at Sioux Falls SD and said sure why not. Can anyone make any sense out of that?