https://www.nbclosangeles.com/news/local/10-freeway-shut-down-in-downtown-la-due-to-storage-yard-fire/3266281/
Judging by some of the videos out there, there appears to be some significant spalling on the overpass. Even with available downtown LA detours, this could take a little bit of time to get fixed.
My mother showed me an online story about this. I responded by showing her a Street View image of the burned location before it went up in flames. How does this compare to the damage the Interstate 10 freeway took from the earthquake in 1994?
https://deadline.com/2023/11/10-freeway-shut-down-massive-fire-1235600376/
https://www.nbclosangeles.com/news/local/10-freeway-shut-down-in-downtown-la-due-to-storage-yard-fire/3266281/
QuoteTheir goal is to open at least one lane on Monday, but continue to assess the damage.
Yikes.
Amusingly almost nobody on the Quick Map is using Olympic and an alternate.
StreetView of the storage yard that caught fire (https://www.google.com/maps/@34.025083,-118.237569,3a,75y,17.53h,98.75t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1soREhi_I4CufgzEzGbb5J0g!2e0!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttu)
My money would be on an extended closure since, if the fire burned hot enough to melt steel guardrail, it probably also cooked tensioning cables within the viaduct.
It even made the New York Times: https://www.nytimes.com/2023/11/12/us/los-angeles-freeway-fire.html
Looks like a nightmare already. I've got some friends on the westside who are freaked out about the commute.
Hit the surface streets. Not a great option sure, but better than sitting in the inevitable freeway apocalypse.
It's going to be pretty tricky. This section of the 10 is just west of the East LA interchange, so all of those other freeways will be significantly affected.
If the closure is expected to last for more than a few weeks, Caltrans should restripe some of the freeways so that fewer lanes will be directed to the Santa Monica Fwy.
All on-ramps to the EB I-10 should be closed from the I-110 freeway to Alameda Street. This will allow for the more orderly exit onto surface streets at the Alameda closure.
On the NB I-5 Santa Ana, the five lanes currently direct traffic as follows: #1 to 101, #2 to 101/5, #3 to 5, #4 to 10, #5 to 10. This can be restriped to have #1 to 101, #2 to 101, #3 to 5, #4 to 5, and #5 to forced exit at Grande Vista.
On the WB CA-60, the five lanes currently: #1 to 10, #2 to 10, #3 to 10/101, #4 to 101, #5 to Soto/5. This can be restriped to have #1 to 101, #2 to 101, #3 to Soto, #4 to 5, #5 to forced exit at Lorena.
On the SB I-5 Golden State, the five lanes currently: #1 to 60, #2 to 5, #3 to 5/10, #4 to 10, #5 to 10. This can be restriped to have #1 to 60, #2 to 5, #3 to 5, #4 to merge into the #3 lane, #5 is a forced exit to 4th street. The 4th street SB on-ramp to Golden State Fwy should be closed.
Even with the mitigation, it will be a big mess.
One benefit of this: the traffic chaos that will result will remind people of the benefits of freeways.
I really hope they're isn't going to be some push to just tear it down because cars bad. I know it's unlikely but at the same time it wouldn't surprise me.
Google tells me that when the Santa Monica Freeway viaduct collapsed at La Cienega Boulevard in the 1994 Northridge earthquake, Caltrans was able to reopen it in 66 days despite an initially projected four-month construction period. When a tanker truck fire took down a connector in the MacArthur Maze in 2007, Caltrans had an emergency contract for its replacement out to bid within a few days, with steep incentives for rapid completion.
Based on this experience, I would expect Caltrans to have a contract out for total replacement of the I-10 viaduct within a week if it determines that the existing structure has lost its integrity. I also would not expect phased construction similar to I-95 in Philadelphia, as that would delay the restoration of full capacity.
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on November 13, 2023, 12:42:31 AM
I really hope they're isn't going to be some push to just tear it down because cars bad. I know it's unlikely but at the same time it wouldn't surprise me.
Does the anti-car lobby really have much of a voice in LA? At this point, it feels like a fringe element in most places.
Quote from: The Nature Boy on November 13, 2023, 02:13:07 AM
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on November 13, 2023, 12:42:31 AM
I really hope they're isn't going to be some push to just tear it down because cars bad. I know it's unlikely but at the same time it wouldn't surprise me.
Does the anti-car lobby really have much of a voice in LA? At this point, it feels like a fringe element in most places.
Let's see: they stopped the closure of the 710 gap, they stopped the widening of the 710, they blocked the High Desert Corridor, and they got Laura Friedman, a self proclaimed fan of Donald Shoup, in the legislature.
But no, they are not going to permanently close the 10. 300,000 vehicles use it a day and even if LA wanted to, they'd have to contend with Caltrans and the FHWA.
Quote from: kernals12 on November 13, 2023, 07:26:54 AM
Quote from: The Nature Boy on November 13, 2023, 02:13:07 AM
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on November 13, 2023, 12:42:31 AM
I really hope they're isn't going to be some push to just tear it down because cars bad. I know it's unlikely but at the same time it wouldn't surprise me.
Does the anti-car lobby really have much of a voice in LA? At this point, it feels like a fringe element in most places.
Let's see: they stopped the closure of the 710 gap, they stopped the widening of the 710, they blocked the High Desert Corridor, and they got Laura Friedman, a self proclaimed fan of Donald Shoup, in the legislature.
But no, they are not going to permanently close the 10. 300,000 vehicles use it a day and even if LA wanted to, they'd have to contend with Caltrans and the FHWA.
What does the 710 gap and High Desert Corridor have to do with a pallet fire under I-10 in downtown? Has Laura Friedman spoke out about removing I-10 or was your statement just hyperbole?
I have a funny feeling that the remedial plan won't involve dumping some filler material and putting a roadway on top like they did with I-95 in Philadelphia.
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on November 13, 2023, 07:49:04 AM
Quote from: kernals12 on November 13, 2023, 07:26:54 AM
Quote from: The Nature Boy on November 13, 2023, 02:13:07 AM
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on November 13, 2023, 12:42:31 AM
I really hope they're isn't going to be some push to just tear it down because cars bad. I know it's unlikely but at the same time it wouldn't surprise me.
Does the anti-car lobby really have much of a voice in LA? At this point, it feels like a fringe element in most places.
Let's see: they stopped the closure of the 710 gap, they stopped the widening of the 710, they blocked the High Desert Corridor, and they got Laura Friedman, a self proclaimed fan of Donald Shoup, in the legislature.
But no, they are not going to permanently close the 10. 300,000 vehicles use it a day and even if LA wanted to, they'd have to contend with Caltrans and the FHWA.
What does the 710 gap and High Desert Corridor have to do with a pallet fire under I-10 in downtown? Has Laura Friedman spoke out about removing I-10 or was your statement just hyperbole?
Maybe read the comment I was replying to.
Quote from: kernals12 on November 13, 2023, 08:34:03 AM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on November 13, 2023, 07:49:04 AM
Quote from: kernals12 on November 13, 2023, 07:26:54 AM
Quote from: The Nature Boy on November 13, 2023, 02:13:07 AM
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on November 13, 2023, 12:42:31 AM
I really hope they're isn't going to be some push to just tear it down because cars bad. I know it's unlikely but at the same time it wouldn't surprise me.
Does the anti-car lobby really have much of a voice in LA? At this point, it feels like a fringe element in most places.
Let's see: they stopped the closure of the 710 gap, they stopped the widening of the 710, they blocked the High Desert Corridor, and they got Laura Friedman, a self proclaimed fan of Donald Shoup, in the legislature.
But no, they are not going to permanently close the 10. 300,000 vehicles use it a day and even if LA wanted to, they'd have to contend with Caltrans and the FHWA.
What does the 710 gap and High Desert Corridor have to do with a pallet fire under I-10 in downtown? Has Laura Friedman spoke out about removing I-10 or was your statement just hyperbole?
Maybe read the comment I was replying to.
I did, I even read your initial comment which had little to do with the pallet fort. You coming here to bitch about off topic road projects, transit fans and political figures wasn't lost on me. There is several 710 and High Desert Corridor threads you could whine in instead.
The Governor declared a state of emergency regarding I-10. That alone should take care your concern with a particular transit oriented local representatives.
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on November 13, 2023, 10:13:03 AM
Quote from: kernals12 on November 13, 2023, 08:34:03 AM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on November 13, 2023, 07:49:04 AM
Quote from: kernals12 on November 13, 2023, 07:26:54 AM
Quote from: The Nature Boy on November 13, 2023, 02:13:07 AM
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on November 13, 2023, 12:42:31 AM
I really hope they're isn't going to be some push to just tear it down because cars bad. I know it's unlikely but at the same time it wouldn't surprise me.
Does the anti-car lobby really have much of a voice in LA? At this point, it feels like a fringe element in most places.
Let's see: they stopped the closure of the 710 gap, they stopped the widening of the 710, they blocked the High Desert Corridor, and they got Laura Friedman, a self proclaimed fan of Donald Shoup, in the legislature.
But no, they are not going to permanently close the 10. 300,000 vehicles use it a day and even if LA wanted to, they'd have to contend with Caltrans and the FHWA.
What does the 710 gap and High Desert Corridor have to do with a pallet fire under I-10 in downtown? Has Laura Friedman spoke out about removing I-10 or was your statement just hyperbole?
Maybe read the comment I was replying to.
I did, I even read your initial comment which had little to do with the pallet fort. You coming here to bitch about off topic road projects, transit fans and political figures wasn't lost on me. There is several 710 and High Desert Corridor threads you could whine in instead.
The Governor declared a state of emergency regarding I-10. That alone should take care your concern with a particular transit oriented local representatives.
I think that's evidence the anti-car lobby has some influence in SoCal
Quote from: J N Winkler on November 13, 2023, 01:15:34 AM
Google tells me that when the Santa Monica Freeway viaduct collapsed at La Cienega Boulevard in the 1994 Northridge earthquake, Caltrans was able to reopen it in 66 days despite an initially projected four-month construction period. When a tanker truck fire took down a connector in the MacArthur Maze in 2007, Caltrans had an emergency contract for its replacement out to bid within a few days, with steep incentives for rapid completion.
Based on this experience, I would expect Caltrans to have a contract out for total replacement of the I-10 viaduct within a week if it determines that the existing structure has lost its integrity. I also would not expect phased construction similar to I-95 in Philadelphia, as that would delay the restoration of full capacity.
I was living in LA at the time of the 1994 earthquake. The 10 closure had a dramatic effect on traffic on many of the side streets in the area and there was some very careful rerouting done in order to reduce the impacts.
The bridge over Fairfax collapsed, not La Ciengega.
I don't recall all of the details, but basically, only carpools were allowed to stay on the freeway to the last exits before the closure and then use the closest on ramp and general traffic had to do a wider circle. So this meant that WB, traffic had to get off at la brea and then take venice to the 10 west on ramp, while carpoolers could just get off at the Washington ramp, continue on Electric to the other on-ramp after Fairfax. (EB was more convoluted and I don't remember all the details.) There were a lot of closures of side streets, turning restrictions, and parking restrictions in order to favor the east-west traffic of the freeway that had to use small city street bypasses to close the gap.
It doesnt seem as if they are going to encourage a surface street bypass, so probably no additional closures other that what is necessary for the repairs.
First, WHY did the City of Los Angeles even allow that land use there ? ? ? Second the LAFD (City of Los Angeles Fire Department) did a significant number of 'homeless' rescues and evacuations at that scene (think of that as you may). Third, I am expecting Caltrans to 'blitz' rebuild that section of freeway like they did when CA 118 went down in the Northridge earthquake, IIRC the main contractor there and then even hired a railroad company to move material in for that one). Right now, I believe that it will be fully back open by February, 2024.
Mike
Quote from: mgk920 on November 13, 2023, 12:36:09 PM
First, WHY did the City of Los Angeles even allow that land use there ? ? ?
That was definitely my first thought.
Was in LA over the weekend and felt the effects of the I-10 closure on both Saturday and Sunday:
Saturday: did a drive from Artesia to Griffith Park, then later on from West Hollywood back to Hawaiian Gardens.
On the way up, the normal logical route would have been 605 to 5.
Ended up doing:
605 to 105 to Imperial to Garfield to 710 to 5 (thus putting us right in the start of the massive backup at the East LA Interchange), then 101 to Vermont to get to Griffith Park.
Then on the way home, did 101 to 110, dealt with some midnight congestion in the downtown section of the Harbor Freeway, then was able to use the express lanes to 105, then 605.
The next day, en route back to SF, we hit up Porto's in Downey and the Bumsan ice cream shop in Koreatown. From Downey to Koreatown...
Normally would have taken 710-5-10-Western or 605-5-10-Western
Instead: 710-10 (with congestion severe at the 710/10 junction) - 101 (via San Bernardino Split) - Beverly Boulevard to eventually connect to Western
My question is , was the stuff UNDER the bridge permitted use or a homeless encampment? The pallets immediately adjacent were a problem, but???
Quote from: bwana39 on November 13, 2023, 03:26:24 PM
My question is , was the stuff UNDER the bridge permitted use or a homeless encampment? The pallets immediately adjacent were a problem, but???
"WE BUY PALLETS" (https://maps.app.goo.gl/XEvBMyiXEt7iYfxm7)
I like the "DANGER" sign that looks like it was painted by a tagger.
As to why they allowed it - rent payments?
Quote from: bwana39 on November 13, 2023, 03:26:24 PMMy question is, was the stuff UNDER the bridge permitted use or a homeless encampment? The pallets immediately adjacent were a problem, but???
There were unhoused individuals camping in RVs nearby, but per reporting of CNN as of two hours ago (https://www.cnn.com/2023/11/13/us/i-10-freeway-la-fire-closure-monday/index.html), the site was under an expired lease and was covered by multiple subleases. Besides the pallets, there were apparently also oranges stored on site.
There has been a ton of speculation elsewhere about the unhoused lighting cooking fires under bridges and stealing power from light fixtures, but no confirmation that any of that was actually going on at
this bridge.
Quote from: kernals12 on November 13, 2023, 10:38:04 AM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on November 13, 2023, 10:13:03 AM
Quote from: kernals12 on November 13, 2023, 08:34:03 AM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on November 13, 2023, 07:49:04 AM
Quote from: kernals12 on November 13, 2023, 07:26:54 AM
Quote from: The Nature Boy on November 13, 2023, 02:13:07 AM
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on November 13, 2023, 12:42:31 AM
I really hope they're isn't going to be some push to just tear it down because cars bad. I know it's unlikely but at the same time it wouldn't surprise me.
Does the anti-car lobby really have much of a voice in LA? At this point, it feels like a fringe element in most places.
Let's see: they stopped the closure of the 710 gap, they stopped the widening of the 710, they blocked the High Desert Corridor, and they got Laura Friedman, a self proclaimed fan of Donald Shoup, in the legislature.
But no, they are not going to permanently close the 10. 300,000 vehicles use it a day and even if LA wanted to, they'd have to contend with Caltrans and the FHWA.
What does the 710 gap and High Desert Corridor have to do with a pallet fire under I-10 in downtown? Has Laura Friedman spoke out about removing I-10 or was your statement just hyperbole?
Maybe read the comment I was replying to.
I did, I even read your initial comment which had little to do with the pallet fort. You coming here to bitch about off topic road projects, transit fans and political figures wasn't lost on me. There is several 710 and High Desert Corridor threads you could whine in instead.
The Governor declared a state of emergency regarding I-10. That alone should take care your concern with a particular transit oriented local representatives.
I think that's evidence the anti-car lobby has some influence in SoCal
Okay, but why jump to that conclusion? It isn't as though there wasn't established precedent for the Governor to declare a state of emergency in the expedite road repairs. If I recall correctly the tanker fire incident that damaged the Pomona Freeway (CA 60) in 2011 had an almost identical emergency declaration.
Presently in District 7 I'm only aware of two even semi-serious freeway removal proposals. The 710 stub in Pasadena is well known given all the recent relinquishment news. The Marina Freeway (CA 90) was recently brought up but there has been a lot of local community resistance against the idea. I don't think anyone is politically stupid enough to suggest removing I-10 in downtown simply due to a pallet.
^^^you are misunderstanding what I'm saying. I agree in theory but I am saying I wouldn't be surprised if a significant effort was put into it. These types already jerk each other off to renderings of the 101 being removed from Hollywood to downtown.
Not trying to be hyperbolic here just pointing it out.
That story about the Santa Monica Freeway being structural compromised by fire reminds me of when Atlanta had a similar issue over a fire under I-85 and it was under similar conditions as seen in LA.
https://www.ajc.com/news/six-years-later-a-look-back-at-the-i-85-bridge-collapse-in-atlanta/E5KCHHEZLU5ZQTNRBP5LWFRMAA/
What would be nice if they rebuilt it with modern standards and added shoulders.
I do remember the 1994 earthquake, because I also lived in L.A. when it occurred, and I felt relieved that at least they didn't have an I-880-type situation to deal with.
Quote from: J N Winkler on November 13, 2023, 01:15:34 AM
Google tells me that when the Santa Monica Freeway viaduct collapsed at La Cienega Boulevard in the 1994 Northridge earthquake, Caltrans was able to reopen it in 66 days despite an initially projected four-month construction period. When a tanker truck fire took down a connector in the MacArthur Maze in 2007, Caltrans had an emergency contract for its replacement out to bid within a few days, with steep incentives for rapid completion.
Based on this experience, I would expect Caltrans to have a contract out for total replacement of the I-10 viaduct within a week if it determines that the existing structure has lost its integrity. I also would not expect phased construction similar to I-95 in Philadelphia, as that would delay the restoration of full capacity.
And IIRC, after I-85 in Atlanta fell down in a fire six years ago, it was rebuilt in a month or so.
This incident showed how fragile the system end up being, caused by canceled freeways so there are few redundancies for things like this.
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on November 13, 2023, 09:23:38 PM
What would be nice if they rebuilt it with modern standards and added shoulders.
That would be lovely. I had the same thought too.
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on November 13, 2023, 09:23:38 PM
What would be nice if they rebuilt it with modern standards and added shoulders.
For a quick rebuild, they will have to use the bridge construction plans they used to build the last incarnation (original plans and any modifications). Meaning no widenings.
Quote from: Big John on November 13, 2023, 11:16:31 PM
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on November 13, 2023, 09:23:38 PM
What would be nice if they rebuilt it with modern standards and added shoulders.
For a quick rebuild, they will have to use the bridge construction plans they used to build the last incarnation (original plans and any modifications). Meaning no widenings.
I wonder if there's any way they can modify it to be designed to be expanded in the future. Not more lanes just shoulders at minimum. Aux lanes or extended acel/decel lanes would be an added bonus.
There was an illegal sublease, the sublessor was storing flammable stuff there, and Newsom indicates it was arson: https://www.latimes.com/california/story/2023-11-13/10-freeway-closure-snarls-commute-after-huge-downtown-los-angeles-fire
"The fire began under the overpass at Alameda Street early Saturday morning, fueled by wood pallets stored there.
"Although the exact cause of the fire has not been revealed, 'there was [malicious] intent,' Newsom said at a news conference Monday afternoon.
"In addition to pallets, sanitizer accumulated during the height of the COVID-19 pandemic was stored under the overpass and helped fuel the flames, according to sources familiar with the probe who were not authorized to discuss details of the investigation.
"State Fire Marshal Daniel Berlant appealed for witnesses to call a tip line with information and noted those tips could be given anonymously.
"'We have identified the point of origin of the fire,' Berlant said. He would not provide further detail, saying the investigation was ongoing. Berlant said investigators had dug through the rubble for evidence and canvassed the neighborhood for witnesses.
"Officials said the property where the fire broke out was being leased by Calabasas-based Apex Development Inc., which was subleasing the storage site under the overpass without permission from state and federal agencies. The company stopped paying rent, according to Newsom, and had been out of compliance with its lease agreement."
Quote from: SeriesE on November 13, 2023, 11:16:09 PM
This incident showed how fragile the system end up being, caused by canceled freeways so there are few redundancies for things like this.
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on November 13, 2023, 09:23:38 PM
What would be nice if they rebuilt it with modern standards and added shoulders.
That would be lovely. I had the same thought too.
Won't happen because you need an EIR (or a law exempting the specific project) if the rebuilt structure would have a significant effect on the environment. Most changes in size or capacity of a highway bridge fit that criteria. It's easier and quicker to just replace the structure with one with the same capacity and footprint.
When a tanker truck caught fire on the 60 in 2011 and compromised the structural integrity of the Paramount Blvd bridge, even though there were long term plans to eventually add a carpool lane to that stretch of the 60, when they rebuilt the bridge, they didn't make any changes to the capacity underneath the new bridge or redesign the abutments to allow for a future lane addition. The only changes to the bridge design were seismic design updates that were exempt from EIR requirements.
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on November 13, 2023, 08:16:45 PM
^^^you are misunderstanding what I'm saying. I agree in theory but I am saying I wouldn't be surprised if a significant effort was put into it. These types already jerk each other off to renderings of the 101 being removed from Hollywood to downtown.
Not trying to be hyperbolic here just pointing it out.
Can you link me to these renderings? I'd like to see them myself.
And I also don't know what to say except we live in a democracy. People who are anti-freeway are allowed to bring it up, just like people who are pro-freeway are allowed to. Just like there are people right now protesting what Israel is doing right alongside people protesting in support of Israel. That's how it goes. There will always be people who are against freeways for various reasons, it's not something new. And it's not going to go away. Just like people who believe every single roadway should be a freeway also exist. (And certainly had some wild plans back in the 1950s).
I think what Max said is a good point: the governor declared a state of emergency to get the freeway repaired. That isn't something that would happen if anti-freeway sentiment was mainstream. That's a clear sign that the powers that be recognize freeways are important, and aren't about to commit political suicide by tearing them down. Sure, some people in local bodies of legislation might think otherwise, but where are they right now? Are they standing on the portion of the 10 needing repairs, preventing it from happening?
This is almost exactly what happened under I-85 in Atlanta back in 2017 that closed the I-85 viaduct in both directions for 6 weeks. This fire sounds like it is a bigger scale, though, and the closure could last longer. You think they would had learned from our experience.
Quote from: Quillz on November 14, 2023, 05:51:20 AM
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on November 13, 2023, 08:16:45 PM
^^^you are misunderstanding what I'm saying. I agree in theory but I am saying I wouldn't be surprised if a significant effort was put into it. These types already jerk each other off to renderings of the 101 being removed from Hollywood to downtown.
Not trying to be hyperbolic here just pointing it out.
Can you link me to these renderings? I'd like to see them myself.
And I also don't know what to say except we live in a democracy. People who are anti-freeway are allowed to bring it up, just like people who are pro-freeway are allowed to. Just like there are people right now protesting what Israel is doing right alongside people protesting in support of Israel. That's how it goes. There will always be people who are against freeways for various reasons, it's not something new. And it's not going to go away. Just like people who believe every single roadway should be a freeway also exist. (And certainly had some wild plans back in the 1950s).
I think what Max said is a good point: the governor declared a state of emergency to get the freeway repaired. That isn't something that would happen if anti-freeway sentiment was mainstream. That's a clear sign that the powers that be recognize freeways are important, and aren't about to commit political suicide by tearing them down. Sure, some people in local bodies of legislation might think otherwise, but where are they right now? Are they standing on the portion of the 10 needing repairs, preventing it from happening?
I just spent like 15 minutes looking for them and I couldn't find it. I'm 99% sure it was when they had curbed LA Alissa Walker posted the article about what the stretch of the 101 would look like without the freeway. I'm going to keep digging and see if I can find it. It's funny how these articles disappear.
Here's what she thinks about freeways: https://la.curbed.com/2018/1/5/16854828/los-angeles-freeways-pollution-solution
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on November 14, 2023, 06:35:55 AM
Quote from: Quillz on November 14, 2023, 05:51:20 AM
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on November 13, 2023, 08:16:45 PM
^^^you are misunderstanding what I'm saying. I agree in theory but I am saying I wouldn't be surprised if a significant effort was put into it. These types already jerk each other off to renderings of the 101 being removed from Hollywood to downtown.
Not trying to be hyperbolic here just pointing it out.
Can you link me to these renderings? I'd like to see them myself.
And I also don't know what to say except we live in a democracy. People who are anti-freeway are allowed to bring it up, just like people who are pro-freeway are allowed to. Just like there are people right now protesting what Israel is doing right alongside people protesting in support of Israel. That's how it goes. There will always be people who are against freeways for various reasons, it's not something new. And it's not going to go away. Just like people who believe every single roadway should be a freeway also exist. (And certainly had some wild plans back in the 1950s).
I think what Max said is a good point: the governor declared a state of emergency to get the freeway repaired. That isn't something that would happen if anti-freeway sentiment was mainstream. That's a clear sign that the powers that be recognize freeways are important, and aren't about to commit political suicide by tearing them down. Sure, some people in local bodies of legislation might think otherwise, but where are they right now? Are they standing on the portion of the 10 needing repairs, preventing it from happening?
I just spent like 15 minutes looking for them and I couldn't find it. I'm 99% sure it was when they had curbed LA Alissa Walker posted the article about what the stretch of the 101 would look like without the freeway. I'm going to keep digging and see if I can find it. It's funny how these articles disappear.
Here's what she thinks about freeways: https://la.curbed.com/2018/1/5/16854828/los-angeles-freeways-pollution-solution
Well she can think whatever she likes about freeways. The state of emergency declared by the governor and the massive backlash against the removal of the Marina Freeway tells me that she'll continue to be living in fantasy. Simply put, I'll believe a word of what she says when it actually happens.
And if these renderings, plans, and articles keep disappearing so quickly, should also give you a sense of what the general public (and the media) thinks about them.
Quote from: RoadWarrior56 on November 14, 2023, 06:29:50 AM
This is almost exactly what happened under I-85 in Atlanta back in 2017 that closed the I-85 viaduct in both directions for 6 weeks. This fire sounds like it is a bigger scale, though, and the closure could last longer. You think they would had learned from our experience.
Not really. Virtually everywhere is dominated by "don't do anything until we have to." Lots of businesses and construction projects didn't learn a thing from the 1971 Sylmar Earthquake and thus were destroyed by the 1994 Northridge Earthquake. It's all about the bottom line: get things done as quickly as cheaply as possible, and just hope nothing bad happens. When it does, just deny everything and quietly pay out wrongful death suits.
That said, I think this section of the 10 will be repaired quicker than some others think. I could see repairs in six weeks, maybe slightly longer. Emergency funding and 24/7 construction can accomplish a lot. I'm reminded of the 2007 bridge collapse in Minneapolis. I believe the replacement bridge opened up about three months ahead of schedule. I know it's a totally different project and scale, but that demonstrates that these things can happen quickly when they need to.
Quote from: Quillz on November 14, 2023, 06:51:08 AM
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on November 14, 2023, 06:35:55 AM
Quote from: Quillz on November 14, 2023, 05:51:20 AM
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on November 13, 2023, 08:16:45 PM
^^^you are misunderstanding what I'm saying. I agree in theory but I am saying I wouldn't be surprised if a significant effort was put into it. These types already jerk each other off to renderings of the 101 being removed from Hollywood to downtown.
Not trying to be hyperbolic here just pointing it out.
Can you link me to these renderings? I'd like to see them myself.
And I also don't know what to say except we live in a democracy. People who are anti-freeway are allowed to bring it up, just like people who are pro-freeway are allowed to. Just like there are people right now protesting what Israel is doing right alongside people protesting in support of Israel. That's how it goes. There will always be people who are against freeways for various reasons, it's not something new. And it's not going to go away. Just like people who believe every single roadway should be a freeway also exist. (And certainly had some wild plans back in the 1950s).
I think what Max said is a good point: the governor declared a state of emergency to get the freeway repaired. That isn't something that would happen if anti-freeway sentiment was mainstream. That's a clear sign that the powers that be recognize freeways are important, and aren't about to commit political suicide by tearing them down. Sure, some people in local bodies of legislation might think otherwise, but where are they right now? Are they standing on the portion of the 10 needing repairs, preventing it from happening?
I just spent like 15 minutes looking for them and I couldn't find it. I'm 99% sure it was when they had curbed LA Alissa Walker posted the article about what the stretch of the 101 would look like without the freeway. I'm going to keep digging and see if I can find it. It's funny how these articles disappear.
Here's what she thinks about freeways: https://la.curbed.com/2018/1/5/16854828/los-angeles-freeways-pollution-solution
Well she can think whatever she likes about freeways. The state of emergency declared by the governor and the massive backlash against the removal of the Marina Freeway tells me that she'll continue to be living in fantasy. Simply put, I'll believe a word of what she says when it actually happens.
And if these renderings, plans, and articles keep disappearing so quickly, should also give you a sense of what the general public (and the media) thinks about them.
They're out there somewhere I just have to dig and find it. Hell I might have a copy on my phone. Before curbed was consolidated LAs Curbed I swear had an article with multiple renderings and I went on her profile and looked at the way to the end and can't find it. I'll check tomorrow I'm heading back to bed.
Okay, if you find it, cool.
But what I'm saying is... one person in a position of power doesn't like freeways. Okay, fine. Plenty of people don't like freeways. I have yet to see anything that suggests anyone anywhere is seriously talking about removing the burned portion of the 10. The governor certainly didn't do anything to suggest that. Caltrans seems like they want it repaired ASAP. I don't see any anti-freeway people going full "Tank Man" and standing in front of any bulldozers or other construction equipment yet. I also noticed that article you linked to is from 2018. Not a whole lot of anti-freeway progress has been made since then. Just a lot of the same old talking points. Maybe things will happen, maybe they won't. But it certainly won't be anytime soon.
Were you perhaps thinking of this proposal to put a park over (but not remove) the 101 in the Downtown Slot?
https://la.curbed.com/2015/5/6/9963516/see-how-amazing-downtown-la-will-look-if-they-build-a-park-over-the
Looks like they've determined it was arson:
https://www.latimes.com/california/story/2023-11-13/10-freeway-closure-snarls-commute-after-huge-downtown-los-angeles-fire
Quote from: RoadWarrior56 on November 14, 2023, 06:29:50 AM
This is almost exactly what happened under I-85 in Atlanta back in 2017 that closed the I-85 viaduct in both directions for 6 weeks. This fire sounds like it is a bigger scale, though, and the closure could last longer. You think they would had learned from our experience.
It reminded me as well of a fire that occurred next to the US-101 / CA-110 interchange a while back.
https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=14190.0
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on November 13, 2023, 08:16:45 PM
These types already jerk each other off to renderings of the 101 being removed from Hollywood to downtown.
Oh, great. I really, really, REALLY hope this doesn't end up in the "Road-Geek dreams" thread tomorrow...
Quote from: kphoger on November 14, 2023, 11:27:04 AM
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on November 13, 2023, 08:16:45 PM
These types already jerk each other off to renderings of the 101 being removed from Hollywood to downtown.
Oh, great. I really, really, REALLY hope this doesn't end up in the "Road-Geek dreams" thread tomorrow...
It looks like CalTrans has determined a rebuild will not be necessary, and it should be open again within a matter of weeks:
https://www.enr.com/articles/57604-caltrans-launches-repairs-to-reopen-fire-damaged-la-freeway
I am interested in what kind of repairs they are going to have to do, given the extensive spalling that is visible in the photos I have seen. Perhaps they can jacket and grout the columns, similar to an earthquake retrofit?
Looks like they sadly like to set fires under freeways in CA.... Another one today, but thankfully nothing like the I-10 one.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QFgumJ3a7Vo
The homeless situation is out of control here. I work delivery GIG apps and this place is such a mess. I've been in two accidents in the last two weeks. Personal car totaled. Rental car totaled. Both other drivers at fault. No license or insurance. Last night I saw a dude light a gas can on fire and threw it in an empty parking lot and then proceed to pick a sword up and attempt to fight the fire by swinging the sword at it. Other than that stuff if were to mention the crap I've been seeing out here lately I don't I could fit in on one page here.
Quote from: jdbx on November 14, 2023, 03:55:31 PM
It looks like CalTrans has determined a rebuild will not be necessary, and it should be open again within a matter of weeks:
https://www.enr.com/articles/57604-caltrans-launches-repairs-to-reopen-fire-damaged-la-freeway
I am interested in what kind of repairs they are going to have to do, given the extensive spalling that is visible in the photos I have seen. Perhaps they can jacket and grout the columns, similar to an earthquake retrofit?
I friend of mine who lives in the Los Angeles area sent me a message this afternoon telling of news reports that are now saying 3-5 weeks. IMHO, that IS enough time to remove and replace all of those columns while the decks are in good condition.
Mike
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on November 14, 2023, 11:44:30 PM
The homeless situation is out of control here. I work delivery GIG apps and this place is such a mess. I've been in two accidents in the last two weeks. Personal car totaled. Rental car totaled. Both other drivers at fault. No license or insurance. Last night I saw a dude light a gas can on fire and threw it in an empty parking lot and then proceed to pick a sword up and attempt to fight the fire by swinging the sword at it. Other than that stuff if were to mention the crap I've been seeing out here lately I don't I could fit in on one page here.
We can speculate endlessly about what did this, such as a local block gang punishing one those (unhoused) for failing to pay his or her tent rent . . .
The results of the investigation will be very interesting (but may be like pulling teeth to get the truth out in the public domain).
Mike
Well the good news is that it shouldn't take long to reopen.
This structure must be pretty old now and nearing the end of its lifespan. I wonder when a full rebuild will happen.
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on November 15, 2023, 01:29:56 AM
This structure must be pretty old now and nearing the end of its lifespan. I wonder when a full rebuild will happen.
If California is anything like Québec, they will find a way to make it last another century...
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on November 14, 2023, 11:44:30 PMThe homeless situation is out of control here. I work delivery GIG apps and this place is such a mess. I've been in two accidents in the last two weeks. Personal car totaled. Rental car totaled. Both other drivers at fault. No license or insurance. Last night I saw a dude light a gas can on fire and threw it in an empty parking lot and then proceed to pick a sword up and attempt to fight the fire by swinging the sword at it. Other than that stuff if were to mention the crap I've been seeing out here lately I don't I could fit in on one page here.
While I haven't witnessed some of the more... interesting... events that you described (I lived in Sacramento, not LA or SF), this just confirms the fact that I am very grateful that I escaped Hotel California almost five years ago. When I visited Sacramento last May, I ended up being depressed with multiple friends telling me, "Good to see you.
Don't want to move back to California."
Quote from: LilianaUwU on November 15, 2023, 02:12:59 AM
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on November 15, 2023, 01:29:56 AM
This structure must be pretty old now and nearing the end of its lifespan. I wonder when a full rebuild will happen.
If California is anything like Québec, they will find a way to make it last another century...
By that you mean making it extra extra durable?
The Santa Monica Freeway is relatively old, even by Los Angeles Freeway standards. It was planned as CA 26 and a direct replacement for Olympic Boulevard:
https://www.gribblenation.org/2023/03/california-state-route-6-and-second.html?m=1
Quote from: Big John on November 13, 2023, 11:16:31 PM
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on November 13, 2023, 09:23:38 PM
What would be nice if they rebuilt it with modern standards and added shoulders.
For a quick rebuild, they will have to use the bridge construction plans they used to build the last incarnation (original plans and any modifications). Meaning no widenings.
Plus just widening shoulders on a bridge does nothing.
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on November 12, 2023, 10:06:07 PM
Hit the surface streets. Not a great option sure, but better than sitting in the inevitable freeway apocalypse.
Please, boss, can I work from home for a while?? At least until traffic patterns and detours settle down a little?
Quote from: kkt on November 15, 2023, 11:41:10 PM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on November 12, 2023, 10:06:07 PM
Hit the surface streets. Not a great option sure, but better than sitting in the inevitable freeway apocalypse.
Please, boss, can I work from home for a while?? At least until traffic patterns and detours settle down a little?
Ha, I would imagine that answer is a hard "no" for most. I spent way too much time in Los Angeles using surface highway detours that Olympic came to mind.
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on November 14, 2023, 11:38:44 AM
Quote from: kphoger on November 14, 2023, 11:27:04 AM
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on November 13, 2023, 08:16:45 PM
These types already jerk each other off to renderings of the 101 being removed from Hollywood to downtown.
Oh, great. I really, really, REALLY hope this doesn't end up in the "Road-Geek dreams" thread tomorrow...
Just for comparison, CalTrans managed to get the I-80/I-880/I-980/I-580/24 interchange in Oakland open again pretty quickly after the 2005 tanker fire.
Story and photos that make viaduct look like cheddar cheese that has been under the broiler too long:
https://www.mikesenese.com/DOIT/2012/05/oakland-freeway-tanker-fire-collapse/
Quote from: Alps on November 15, 2023, 08:29:11 PM
Quote from: Big John on November 13, 2023, 11:16:31 PM
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on November 13, 2023, 09:23:38 PM
What would be nice if they rebuilt it with modern standards and added shoulders.
For a quick rebuild, they will have to use the bridge construction plans they used to build the last incarnation (original plans and any modifications). Meaning no widenings.
Plus just widening shoulders on a bridge does nothing.
Bull fucking shit
Quote from: ClassicHasClass on November 14, 2023, 12:34:54 AM
Quote
In addition to pallets, sanitizer accumulated during the height of the COVID-19 pandemic was stored under the overpass and helped fuel the flames, according to sources familiar with the probe who were not authorized to discuss details of the investigation.
Is it just me or does "wooden pallet and hand sanitizer storage facility catches fire" sound like something out of a sitcom? Did someone have their cache of illegal fireworks and used fryer grease under there too?
Quote from: LilianaUwU on November 15, 2023, 02:12:59 AM
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on November 15, 2023, 01:29:56 AM
This structure must be pretty old now and nearing the end of its lifespan. I wonder when a full rebuild will happen.
If California is anything like Québec, they will find a way to make it last another century...
Last time I was in Montreal it felt like the city highway system
is being fully rebuilt....
From LA Times via Yahoo News:
Under the 10 Freeway: Immigrant businesses scraped by while landlord dodged CaltransQuoteFor more than a decade, Rudy Serafin showed up to his makeshift office underneath the 10 Freeway as the sun came out and the roar of the morning commute shook the ground below his feet.
With a generator, his cellphone and a portable toilet, the 49-year-old immigrant from Michoacán, Mexico, worked alongside a dozen others operating small businesses in spaces they rented between the concrete columns holding up the interstate. They were mechanics, truckers, garment suppliers, recyclers and pallet distributors, struggling to get by in the region's economy. They paid rent to a Calabasas businessman who leased the land from Caltrans and, according to court records filed by the agency, illegally sublet it to them at far higher rates.
On Saturday, many of the renters' dreams went up in the pallet-fueled inferno that caused such severe damage to the freeway that it is expected to be closed for weeks.
While officials say the cause of the fire was arson, many who worked there, with no fire alarms or sprinklers, say it was a disaster years in the making.
FULL ARTICLE HERE (https://markholtz.info/2t4)
From Los Angeles Daily News:
Company leasing site of 10 Freeway fire hadn't paid rent in more than a year, illegally subleased spaces
'There needs to be an investigation. Caltrans should move at lightning speed to inspect all of these facilities,' said a local assemblymemberQuoteThe company leasing the site where the fire started beneath the 10 Freeway hadn't paid rent for a year, was illegally subletting the property to a dozen businesses and appears to have been in violation of safety standards designed to prevent such calamities.
Apex Development of Calabasas last paid rent in September 2022 and owed more than $600,000 to Caltrans, according to court records.
Apex and owner Ahmad Anthony Nowaid rented the property — and three others along the 10 — through California's "airspace" leasing program, which rents out state land under and alongside freeways to fund mass transportation projects.
FULL ARTICLE HERE (https://markholtz.info/2t5)
Quote from: ZLoth on November 16, 2023, 07:34:59 AM
From LA Times via Yahoo News:
Under the 10 Freeway: Immigrant businesses scraped by while landlord dodged CaltransQuoteFor more than a decade, Rudy Serafin showed up to his makeshift office underneath the 10 Freeway as the sun came out and the roar of the morning commute shook the ground below his feet.
With a generator, his cellphone and a portable toilet, the 49-year-old immigrant from Michoacán, Mexico, worked alongside a dozen others operating small businesses in spaces they rented between the concrete columns holding up the interstate. They were mechanics, truckers, garment suppliers, recyclers and pallet distributors, struggling to get by in the region's economy. They paid rent to a Calabasas businessman who leased the land from Caltrans and, according to court records filed by the agency, illegally sublet it to them at far higher rates.
On Saturday, many of the renters' dreams went up in the pallet-fueled inferno that caused such severe damage to the freeway that it is expected to be closed for weeks.
While officials say the cause of the fire was arson, many who worked there, with no fire alarms or sprinklers, say it was a disaster years in the making.
FULL ARTICLE HERE (https://markholtz.info/2t4)
From Los Angeles Daily News:
Company leasing site of 10 Freeway fire hadn't paid rent in more than a year, illegally subleased spaces
'There needs to be an investigation. Caltrans should move at lightning speed to inspect all of these facilities,' said a local assemblymemberQuoteThe company leasing the site where the fire started beneath the 10 Freeway hadn't paid rent for a year, was illegally subletting the property to a dozen businesses and appears to have been in violation of safety standards designed to prevent such calamities.
Apex Development of Calabasas last paid rent in September 2022 and owed more than $600,000 to Caltrans, according to court records.
Apex and owner Ahmad Anthony Nowaid rented the property — and three others along the 10 — through California's "airspace" leasing program, which rents out state land under and alongside freeways to fund mass transportation projects.
FULL ARTICLE HERE (https://markholtz.info/2t5)
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/3b/Paris_Tuileries_Garden_Facepalm_statue.jpg)
Quote from: Scott5114 on November 16, 2023, 03:25:18 AM
Quote from: ClassicHasClass on November 14, 2023, 12:34:54 AM
Quote
In addition to pallets, sanitizer accumulated during the height of the COVID-19 pandemic was stored under the overpass and helped fuel the flames, according to sources familiar with the probe who were not authorized to discuss details of the investigation.
Is it just me or does "wooden pallet and hand sanitizer storage facility catches fire" sound like something out of a sitcom? Did someone have their cache of illegal fireworks and used fryer grease under there too?
This whole place is a sitcom come out ;)
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on November 16, 2023, 10:31:33 AM
Quote from: Scott5114 on November 16, 2023, 03:25:18 AM
Quote from: ClassicHasClass on November 14, 2023, 12:34:54 AM
Quote
In addition to pallets, sanitizer accumulated during the height of the COVID-19 pandemic was stored under the overpass and helped fuel the flames, according to sources familiar with the probe who were not authorized to discuss details of the investigation.
Is it just me or does "wooden pallet and hand sanitizer storage facility catches fire" sound like something out of a sitcom? Did someone have their cache of illegal fireworks and used fryer grease under there too?
This whole place is a sitcom come out ;)
At which point does the NTSB comes in as part of this investigation and the investigators does a face palm?
I'm more curious to know how much money Caltrans actually makes leasing storage space under elevated freeways?
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on November 16, 2023, 11:03:44 AM
I'm more curious to know how much money Caltrans actually makes leasing storage space under elevated freeways?
Probably not enough. Not enough to pay for the repairs. Not enough to even pay insurance to cover such a fiasco, if it could even be obtained at any price.
Quote from: GaryV on November 16, 2023, 02:34:07 PM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on November 16, 2023, 11:03:44 AM
I'm more curious to know how much money Caltrans actually makes leasing storage space under elevated freeways?
Probably not enough. Not enough to pay for the repairs. Not enough to even pay insurance to cover such a fiasco, if it could even be obtained at any price.
Still... if 13 months of unpaid rent equates to more than $600,000... it really does make you wonder how many such tenants rent space from the Department.
And now certain people are only going to see the word "immigrant" and now decide exactly what happened and why. When the real issue is the business illegally doing a secondary lease, and the negligence on the part of Caltrans.
Quote from: Quillz on November 16, 2023, 03:07:10 PM
And now certain people are only going to see the word "immigrant" and now decide exactly what happened and why. When the real issue is the business illegally doing a secondary lease, and the negligence on the part of Caltrans.
Secondary lease isn't setting anything on fire, even if it is illegal or overdue.
Makeshift offices under the highway are pretty strange. Flammable storage under the structure, be it pallets or hazardous fluid (70% IPA sanitizer requires placard).. Maybe that's normal, but I doubt that it should be, same as storage in stairwells.
To add insult to injury, all that bullshit is for public transportation funding?
UPD: looking at the bridge, at least it concrete on the bottom, no exposed steel. THat probably saved the deck and allowed for some more or less compliant storage. Still, hazmat storage is a bit different story.
Expansion joints may be affected as at least one seem to be over fire. I wonder how those feel
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on November 16, 2023, 02:13:03 AM
Quote from: Alps on November 15, 2023, 08:29:11 PM
Quote from: Big John on November 13, 2023, 11:16:31 PM
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on November 13, 2023, 09:23:38 PM
What would be nice if they rebuilt it with modern standards and added shoulders.
For a quick rebuild, they will have to use the bridge construction plans they used to build the last incarnation (original plans and any modifications). Meaning no widenings.
Plus just widening shoulders on a bridge does nothing.
Bull fucking shit
It does very little for day to day capacity. It will only contribute to a modest decrease in crashes.
Quote from: Alps on November 16, 2023, 05:38:31 PM
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on November 16, 2023, 02:13:03 AM
Quote from: Alps on November 15, 2023, 08:29:11 PM
Quote from: Big John on November 13, 2023, 11:16:31 PM
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on November 13, 2023, 09:23:38 PM
What would be nice if they rebuilt it with modern standards and added shoulders.
For a quick rebuild, they will have to use the bridge construction plans they used to build the last incarnation (original plans and any modifications). Meaning no widenings.
Plus just widening shoulders on a bridge does nothing.
Bull fucking shit
It does very little for day to day capacity. It will only contribute to a modest decrease in crashes.
Lack of shoulders also encourages drivers to slow down/brake which can add to congestion approaching the bridge.
This is going to get interesting. The landlord is "Ahmad Anthony Nowaid", and apparently he owns both Apex Development Inc and Prime Point Contracting, Inc. plus eighteen other companies (https://www.corporationwiki.com/California/Calabasas/ahmad-anthony-nowaid/40801762.aspx) either currently operating or has discontinued operations. .
Sounds like two more will be discontinuing operations soon.
Quote from: Quillz on November 16, 2023, 03:07:10 PM
And now certain people are only going to see the word "immigrant" and now decide exactly what happened and why. When the real issue is the business illegally doing a secondary lease, and the negligence on the part of Caltrans.
Yup. The scumbag landlord needs to be the one on the hook here—they were allowing dangerous uses of the property against the terms of their agreement with the state. Caltrans gets dinged for not checking the property, but to be fair to them, when you rent an apartment, how often does ownership come by and check that you're following the lease when you're living in it?
What do all of you make of this story from The Associated Press?: https://apnews.com/article/los-angeles-california-interstate-10-freeway-fire-975b89dc7ba8af576e42f0c99538b48d.
Quote from: Scott5114 on November 16, 2023, 09:42:04 PM
Quote from: Quillz on November 16, 2023, 03:07:10 PM
And now certain people are only going to see the word "immigrant" and now decide exactly what happened and why. When the real issue is the business illegally doing a secondary lease, and the negligence on the part of Caltrans.
Yup. The scumbag landlord needs to be the one on the hook here—they were allowing dangerous uses of the property against the terms of their agreement with the state. Caltrans gets dinged for not checking the property, but to be fair to them, when you rent an apartment, how often does ownership come by and check that you're following the lease when you're living in it?
As far as I understand, such structures are subject to annual inspections where inspector should be checking everything from arms reach distance.
If the folks who had "offices" there believe this was years in the making.. well, bridge inspections do not cover those lease conditions. Maybe.
Quote from: The Ghostbuster on November 16, 2023, 10:00:23 PM
What do all of you make of this story from The Associated Press?: https://apnews.com/article/los-angeles-california-interstate-10-freeway-fire-975b89dc7ba8af576e42f0c99538b48d.
The lead picture shows them shoring up the freeway adjacent some columns. Seems like they've decided the columns can be repaired while the freeway is live.
Quote from: davewiecking on November 16, 2023, 10:13:54 PM
Quote from: The Ghostbuster on November 16, 2023, 10:00:23 PM
What do all of you make of this story from The Associated Press?: https://apnews.com/article/los-angeles-california-interstate-10-freeway-fire-975b89dc7ba8af576e42f0c99538b48d.
The lead picture shows them shoring up the freeway adjacent some columns. Seems like they've decided the columns can be repaired while the freeway is live.
Where did we hear of such a scenario where the highway would reopen way sooner than predicted...say in Philly?
Politicians know when they can sound good.
Let's not downplay Caltrans's responsibility on this. If this was a neighbor landlord of yours negligently ignoring the squatters that had moved into his house and were ruining the neighborhood as a result, the ire would likely be as strong for the landlord as for the squatters. Also, there's this (https://www.latimes.com/california/story/2023-11-16/caltrans-long-aware-of-conditions-under-10-freeway-that-fueled-fire).
And it's not like Caltrans's reputation of late is one of conducting its operations diligently. Earlier this year, there was a news report (https://www.cbsnews.com/losangeles/news/assembly-transportation-committee-caltrans-cut-back-efforts-freeway-repairs/) about how 40 percent of the lights on freeways in LA County didn't work because of copper thefts where Caltrans hadn't bothered making repairs and were, in fact, cutting back on the use of electricians. And even local legislators couldn't get answers from District 7 on why they weren't making repairs and were cutting electricians.
Caltrans dropping the ball on a timely unlawful detainer action against a deadbeat tenant, and knowing the dangerous state of their own property but not doing anything about it, are unfortunately not shocking behaviors. But even in a state where government accountability seems all but gone, this effects enough taxpaying commuters that I imagine one of the preening class up in Sacramento will want to make some news holding committee hearings on this.
Pfft. Regarding lighting, it's one of the more annoying elements to get funded. Masts are ridiculously expensive. A lot of standalone element projects are not cost-effective in the current market. If there are plans for a project along then segment with bad lighting, best to wait to incorporate such elements into that project.
Sounds like the information in your post comes from a more-than-usual biased source.
Quote from: Rothman on November 17, 2023, 04:25:36 AM
Pfft. Regarding lighting, it's one of the more annoying elements to get funded. Masts are ridiculously expensive. A lot of standalone element projects are not cost-effective in the current market. If there are plans for a project along then segment with bad lighting, best to wait to incorporate such elements into that project.
Sounds like the information in your post comes from a more-than-usual biased source.
There will be negative bias against the agency given the situation.
And if stories of retail crime in CA are at least somewhat true, and if CA policies are anywhere close to NY's catch-and-release - there will be no easily available copper on any highway pretty soon.
What's more interesting for me is the lease. What were the original terms of use? Did they have things reviewed by fire authorities?
Quote from: kalvado on November 17, 2023, 05:19:16 AMWhat's more interesting for me is the lease. What were the original terms of use? Did they have things reviewed by fire authorities?
As far as I can determine from posted news sources... CalTrans leased it to "Ahmad Anthony Nowaid" under Apex Development Inc. Per one of the articles:
QuoteCaltrans also alleged that the company had subleased its spaces in violation of its rental agreement. Apex sublet parts of the 10 Freeway property to at least six other companies, according to the lawsuit.
The companies included one that stored wooden pallets, a mechanic, and one that sold wire hangers and other materials to businesses in the nearby Garment District.
(text deleted)
The rental agreement states the 48,000 square foot space shall not be used "for any storage of flammable materials, explosives or other materials."
The agreement also states, "The Premises shall be used and occupied by Tenant only and exclusively for the purpose of parking of operable vehicles and open storage." It states Apex needed permission from Caltrans and the concurrence of the Federal Highway Administration to use it for any other purposes.
It's unclear if Apex obtained that permission. Apex had been renting the site since 2008.
It makes me speculate that the CalTrans leasing office consists of three exiled and very disgruntled CalTrans Engineers whose office computers are still running Windows XP. I'm probably exaggerating though.
Quote from: ZLoth on November 17, 2023, 08:50:50 AM
Quote from: kalvado on November 17, 2023, 05:19:16 AMWhat's more interesting for me is the lease. What were the original terms of use? Did they have things reviewed by fire authorities?
As far as I can determine from posted news sources... CalTrans leased it to "Ahmad Anthony Nowaid" under Apex Development Inc. Per one of the articles:
QuoteCaltrans also alleged that the company had subleased its spaces in violation of its rental agreement. Apex sublet parts of the 10 Freeway property to at least six other companies, according to the lawsuit.
The companies included one that stored wooden pallets, a mechanic, and one that sold wire hangers and other materials to businesses in the nearby Garment District.
(text deleted)
The rental agreement states the 48,000 square foot space shall not be used "for any storage of flammable materials, explosives or other materials."
The agreement also states, "The Premises shall be used and occupied by Tenant only and exclusively for the purpose of parking of operable vehicles and open storage." It states Apex needed permission from Caltrans and the concurrence of the Federal Highway Administration to use it for any other purposes.
It's unclear if Apex obtained that permission. Apex had been renting the site since 2008.
It makes me speculate that the CalTrans leasing office consists of three exiled and very disgruntled CalTrans Engineers whose office computers are still running Windows XP. I'm probably exaggerating though.
So OK for open storage, but not ok for any storage?
Quote from: Rothman on November 17, 2023, 04:25:36 AM
Sounds like the information in your post comes from a more-than-usual biased source.
The LA Times and KCBS? 🤣
Some would consider those to be less biased than where most of my information about District 7 usually comes from - - the LA office of Caltrans's legal department housed in District 7's HQ.
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on November 15, 2023, 01:29:56 AM
Well the good news is that it shouldn't take long to reopen.
This structure must be pretty old now and nearing the end of its lifespan. I wonder when a full rebuild will happen.
Wait until the Next 6.9 earthquake to find out.
More biased reporting about Caltrans (https://www.dailynews.com/2023/11/17/inspectors-flagged-hazards-at-site-of-10-freeway-fire-over-and-over-while-tenant-refused-to-pay-rent/). It's really unfair that they can't seem to get a fair shake.
Quote from: Occidental Tourist on November 18, 2023, 04:09:33 PM
More biased reporting about Caltrans (https://www.dailynews.com/2023/11/17/inspectors-flagged-hazards-at-site-of-10-freeway-fire-over-and-over-while-tenant-refused-to-pay-rent/). It's really unfair that they can't seem to get a fair shake.
well, probably those leases weren't too high in the priority list for anyone
Checking on the property is one of the jobs of a property owner. Doesn't seem unfair to expect Caltrans to follow up if they find the tenant isn't following the rules set up for the safety of the road.
There could be a person of interest in the Interstate 10 fire: https://abcnews.go.com/US/person-interest-sought-connection-10-freeway-fire-los/story?id=105006373.
Quote from: kkt on November 18, 2023, 06:04:15 PM
Checking on the property is one of the jobs of a property owner. Doesn't seem unfair to expect Caltrans to follow up if they find the tenant isn't following the rules set up for the safety of the road.
A paper posted above describes the situation as CalTrans doing - or trying to do due diligence - but the other side didn't play along, e.g. denying inspector access to some sites.
Now CalTrans has to play by the book and tries to be nice on top of that when the other side doesn't care. Years of eviction moratorium, probably coupled with reduced court bandwidth and relaxed DA attitude left CalTrans toothless in terms of any enforcement.
Here is the picture of the person of interest.
Did the eviction moratorium apply to businesses?
I can imagine that a big part of the problem here is the left hand not knowing what the right hand is doing at Caltrans—an engineer sent out to inspect the bridge is not necessarily going to know what the terms of the airspace lease are (why would they? They're paid to know how to tell if a bridge is failing, not know the details of real estate contracts) or know who the right person in the organization is to contact if a tenant is doing something unsafe with the property.
Quote from: bing101 on November 19, 2023, 12:09:46 AM
Here is the picture of the person of interest.
Interesting person.
Oops. Is that considered a slur?
Quote from: Scott5114 on November 19, 2023, 12:20:42 AM
Did the eviction moratorium apply to businesses?
I can imagine that a big part of the problem here is the left hand not knowing what the right hand is doing at Caltrans—an engineer sent out to inspect the bridge is not necessarily going to know what the terms of the airspace lease are (why would they? They're paid to know how to tell if a bridge is failing, not know the details of real estate contracts) or know who the right person in the organization is to contact if a tenant is doing something unsafe with the property.
According to the paper two posts up, things escalated to the point of the eviction process initiated in September. Apparently, everything was moving pretty slowly.
If there was no fire, I would assume a court eviction order would be handed out in about a year, happily ignored for another year or two or five - and a SAWT team called into action sometime next decade.
Thing is, due process is shaped under the assumption that both sides are willing to play more or less by the rules. If not, there is a judge, who can order police action - so not playing by the rules is dangerous. If courts and enforcement fall way behind - there will be people taking advantage of the situation and not playing along. All that until brute force is called into action if that ever happens in the current climate.
The problem was not with lease terms per se, the problem was with underlying safety regulations. So inspectors were quite aware of things, and probably followed the due process. Some (and maybe a lot) of letters were sent (and ignored); I assume even some fines could be issued (but not paid). What are the options at that point?
My understanding is that the problem was ultimately with the lease terms, in that the lessee was not permitted to sublet the property; one of those sublettors is the one who was creating dangerous conditions. No sublease, no fire.
Quote from: Scott5114 on November 19, 2023, 08:30:53 PM
My understanding is that the problem was ultimately with the lease terms, in that the lessee was not permitted to sublet the property; one of those sublettors is the one who was creating dangerous conditions. No sublease, no fire.
Following the same logic:
No airspace rental program - no original lease - no sublease - no fire.
Or if there was no sublease, original lessor could do something equally stupid as he doesn't look like a nice guy.
If course, everyone will be looking for a scapegoat. But IMHO original idea of loosing control of what should be somewhat protected area wasn't a bright idea. I wonder how that came into being. To benefit transit is a big red flag IMHO.
Quote from: Scott5114 on November 19, 2023, 08:30:53 PMMy understanding is that the problem was ultimately with the lease terms, in that the lessee was not permitted to sublet the property; one of those sublettors is the one who was creating dangerous conditions. No sublease, no fire.
Contractual disputes, broken leases, and evictions are all considered civil matters, and can take ages to sort out in the courts.
Looks like it's back open:
Another story about the reopening: https://abc7.com/10-freeway-vice-president-kamala-harris-gov-gavin-newsom-mayor-karen-bass/14082355/
I'm a California attorney who practices civil litigation. You can theoretically get a commercial unlawful detainer case decided within 30 days from filing, although with some court's calendars, it can take 60 to 90 days. The successful UD gets the tenant evicted; other contractual breach or tort issues are not decided in the UD action and are reserved for a traditional civil case, which would take longer as others have discussed.
When a tenant stops paying rent, the first thing a landlord does is post a three or thirty-day Quit or Pay Rent Notice and begins the UD process. It's the surest way to get a tenant to either catch up on back rent payments or get them out of the property to turn it over with a new tenant. If Caltrans was sitting on its hands for this long in not trying to evict the tenant, either somebody wasn't paying attention or this tenant had significant defenses to a UD action (which is extremely unusual in a circumstance where the tenant has stopped paying rent altogether).
So basically we can attribute the root cause of this fire/closure/repair to state and local government incompetence.
Mike
Quote from: Occidental Tourist on November 20, 2023, 11:13:00 AM
I'm a California attorney who practices civil litigation. You can theoretically get a commercial unlawful detainer case decided within 30 days from filing, although with some court's calendars, it can take 60 to 90 days. The successful UD gets the tenant evicted; other contractual breach or tort issues are not decided in the UD action and are reserved for a traditional civil case, which would take longer as others have discussed.
When a tenant stops paying rent, the first thing a landlord does is post a three or thirty-day Quit or Pay Rent Notice and begins the UD process. It's the surest way to get a tenant to either catch up on back rent payments or get them out of the property to turn it over with a new tenant. If Caltrans was sitting on its hands for this long in not trying to evict the tenant, either somebody wasn't paying attention or this tenant had significant defenses to a UD action (which is extremely unusual in a circumstance where the tenant has stopped paying rent altogether).
first of all, would an "airspace" rental fall into the same category? This may or may not be real estate lease altogether
Second, purportedly eviction was initiated in August - and was undecided at least 70 days after the filing. Maybe there was a different eviction category, though?
Last, but not the least - how far is rent collection on priority list? My beef here is about safety of entire concept. $78k per site in LA... that's non negligible, but I suspect the lowest paid CalTrans employee in LA area would cost them more (paycheck + benefits).
Any delays from a UD filing could be due to one of several factors: 1) delay due to the court's calendar, 2) delay caused by the landlord (asking for hearing delays, needing to file corrected documents, failing to promptly file proofs of service), or 3) delays due to a tenant dodging service.
To my understanding, airspace leases are the same as ground leases for UD actions. Also, in this instance, there was a kind of "ground" lease. Although the state owns the property on which the freeway bents and deck sit, the tenant (and subtenants) were occupying an actual portion of the parcel underneath the state's improvements. Airspace leases tend to be used for things like billboards and radio towers where there is still a ground tenant (whoever is in the building under the billboard or tower) and an airspace tenant (the billboard or tower operator) above the same ground parcel. The ground tenant has rights typical to a lessee of a land parcel while an airspace tenant has very limited rights (usually placement of equipment and ingress and egress). In effect, what the state had here was a sort of reverse ground lease. Its freeway structures occupied the air above the parcel and the airspace tenants use the parcel. Presumably, these tenants (like billboard tenants) had an airspace lease because (like billboard tenants) they didn't get the full package of tenant rights and obligations for a parcel (or subdivision of that parcel) that typically come with a ground lease.
I've read conflicting stories about when the tenant starting engaging in illegal subleases and was short on the rent. I've read this has been going on as far back as three years or as little as a year. Parsing through the conflicting reports, my best guess is that the illegal subleasing has been going on for well more than a year and the substantial portion of the tenant's failure to pay rent didn't happen until the last year, although there may have been some temporary arrearages before that.
The attorneys at Caltrans I talk to don't speak much about their landlord practice, so I don't know what their practices are for dealing with tenants or how quickly they file actions against bad tenants. I will be asking them, though.
Quote from: Occidental Tourist on November 20, 2023, 02:21:40 PM
Any delays from a UD filing could be due to one of several factors: 1) delay due to the court's calendar, 2) delay caused by the landlord (asking for hearing delays, needing to file corrected documents, failing to promptly file proofs of service), or 3) delays due to a tenant dodging service.
To my understanding, airspace leases are the same as ground leases for UD actions. Also, in this instance, there was a kind of "ground" lease. Although the state owns the property on which the freeway bents and deck sit, the tenant (and subtenants) were occupying an actual portion of the parcel underneath the state's improvements. Airspace leases tend to be used for things like billboards and radio towers where there is still a ground tenant (whoever is in the building under the billboard or tower) and an airspace tenant (the billboard or tower operator) above the same ground parcel. The ground tenant has rights typical to a lessee of a land parcel while an airspace tenant has very limited rights (usually placement of equipment and ingress and egress). In effect, what the state had here was a sort of reverse ground lease. Its freeway structures occupied the air above the parcel and the airspace tenants use the parcel. Presumably, these tenants (like billboard tenants) had an airspace lease because (like billboard tenants) they didn't get the full package of tenant rights and obligations for a parcel (or subdivision of that parcel) that typically come with a ground lease.
I've read conflicting stories about when the tenant starting engaging in illegal subleases and was short on the rent. I've read this has been going on as far back as three years or as little as a year. Parsing through the conflicting reports, my best guess is that the illegal subleasing has been going on for well more than a year and the substantial portion of the tenant's failure to pay rent didn't happen until the last year, although there may have been some temporary arrearages before that.
The attorneys at Caltrans I talk to don't speak much about their landlord practice, so I don't know what their practices are for dealing with tenants or how quickly they file actions against bad tenants. I will be asking them, though.
One of articles here says rent payment stopped with the beginning of covid in 2020, and did not resume after eviction moratorium was lifted in 2022. So a bit over a year of just plain non-payment after 2 years of somewhat explainable non-payment.
As for subleases, sounds to me that was more or less the plan to begin with. A private operator leasing multiple spots and subleasing space with approvals. It's approval part that fell through.
I assume "illegal sublease" is a red flag for you as a lawyer, but honestly it doesn't do much in terms of safety as long as everyone plays by the rules. For me, "illegal" is more of a symptom of lessor not willing to work properly. Which, of course, also included ignoring safety rules.
This story is already six hours old, but is still relevant: https://lamag.com/news/i-10-freeway-reopens-episodic-closures-ahead.
Here is more by Rob Guy Rob.
Has anyone been arrested/charged yet for this arson?
Mike
Welp California is just now realizing maybe storing hazardous materials underneath freeways is not the best idea: https://finance.yahoo.com/news/california-recommends-changes-leasing-properties-222401193.html
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on February 08, 2024, 09:22:34 PM
Welp California is just now realizing maybe storing hazardous materials underneath freeways is not the best idea: https://finance.yahoo.com/news/california-recommends-changes-leasing-properties-222401193.html
I love how they call wooden pallets "hazardous material".
I hope it's just a journalist struggling with the use of ctrl-c...
Quote from: kalvado on February 08, 2024, 09:35:27 PM
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on February 08, 2024, 09:22:34 PM
Welp California is just now realizing maybe storing hazardous materials underneath freeways is not the best idea: https://finance.yahoo.com/news/california-recommends-changes-leasing-properties-222401193.html
I love how they call wooden pallets "hazardous material".
I hope it's just a journalist struggling with the use of ctrl-c...
In this case, it seems they certainly seems like they were hazardous as it contributed to the closure of a major road link.
Yeah, stacks of pallets are a big fire hazard. Just ask anyone who has owned a warehouse and dealt with the fire marshal.
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on February 08, 2024, 09:44:18 PM
Quote from: kalvado on February 08, 2024, 09:35:27 PM
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on February 08, 2024, 09:22:34 PM
Welp California is just now realizing maybe storing hazardous materials underneath freeways is not the best idea: https://finance.yahoo.com/news/california-recommends-changes-leasing-properties-222401193.html
I love how they call wooden pallets "hazardous material".
I hope it's just a journalist struggling with the use of ctrl-c...
In this case, it seems they certainly seems like they were hazardous as it contributed to the closure of a major road link.
Being a hazard and being a hazardous material are two very different things. And I would hope DOT knows the difference.
Quote from: kphoger on February 09, 2024, 12:30:13 PM
Yeah, stacks of pallets are a big fire hazard. Just ask anyone who has owned a warehouse and dealt with the fire marshal.
They're also often the preferred fuel for bonfires. Rockport MA torches a huge stack of them every 7/4.