Poll
Question:
Which Christmas song annoys you the most?
Option 1: Sleigh Ride
votes: 3
Option 2: Jingle Bell Rock
votes: 2
Option 3: Christmas Shoes
votes: 9
Option 4: Simply Having A Wonderful Christmas Time
votes: 5
Option 5: Little Drummer Boy
votes: 4
Write-ins welcome in the comments.
(I'm working on a song that might be more annoying than any of the above! Here are the lyrics:
U kno Santa got rizz, no cap
Skibidi woah oh oh oh
Tell me it's Christmas without telling me it's Christmas
🤣🤣🤣 😂😂 💀
... and the music is pitched-shifted up 2 octaves and optimized for playing over cell phone speaker)
Santa Claus is coming to town. Never liked the thought you were always being watched, ala Big Brother.
My Favorite Things for not being a Christmas song.
Last Christmas by Wham
Last Christmas
Quote from: BlueOutback7 on December 13, 2023, 01:00:32 PM
Last Christmas by Wham
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on December 13, 2023, 01:06:06 PM
Last Christmas
Ouch, I really like this song! Time to give it another listen. :-D
My first thought is 12 Days of Christmas, it's long and repetitive, and most of the gifts are stupid.
Quote from: kurumi on December 13, 2023, 12:48:44 PM
... and the music is pitched-shifted up 2 octaves and optimized for playing over cell phone speaker)
This has to be one of the worst TikTok (social media) trends. Super irritating watching a clip with a song sped up to be higher pitched, even worse when it's a song I like and now it's ruined. :pan:
Baby It's Cold Outside - creepy
It's Beginning To Look A Lot Like Christmas - annoying
Quote from: 1 on December 13, 2023, 12:59:51 PM
My Favorite Things for not being a Christmas song.
You win the thread, even if nobody else noticed.
Sleigh Ride - prior traumatic experiences
Last Christmas - annoying
12 Days of Christmas - too many birds
All I Want for Christmas is You - overdone concept
Quote from: 7/8 on December 13, 2023, 01:24:52 PM
Quote from: BlueOutback7 on December 13, 2023, 01:00:32 PM
Last Christmas by Wham
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on December 13, 2023, 01:06:06 PM
Last Christmas
Ouch, I really like this song! Time to give it another listen. :-D
I like that song too. In addition to the Wham original, the cast of Glee and Ariana Grande both have nice cover versions.
Pure coincidence, but my two worst songs both come from Liverpool:
Happy Xmas (War is Over) by John Lennon
Wonderful Christmastime by Paul McCartney
Quote from: kphoger on December 13, 2023, 02:58:56 PM
Quote from: 1 on December 13, 2023, 12:59:51 PM
My Favorite Things for not being a Christmas song.
You win the thread, even if nobody else noticed.
I remember that when I was a kid, NBC played that movie every December, so people can be forgiven for associating it with Christmas.
For me, mainly just two (and I forgot who did both):
-the barking dogs with Jingle Bells (self-explanatory), and "I want a hippopotamus for Christmas' (Why, just why???).
Mike
Quote from: NWI_Irish96 on December 13, 2023, 03:11:21 PM
Quote from: kphoger on December 13, 2023, 02:58:56 PM
Quote from: 1 on December 13, 2023, 12:59:51 PM
My Favorite Things for not being a Christmas song.
You win the thread, even if nobody else noticed.
I remember that when I was a kid, NBC played that movie every December, so people can be forgiven for associating it with Christmas.
It's actually been associated with Christmas since the early 60s, not long after
The Sound of Music opened. Multiple big names included it in their Christmas song collection albums in the 60s, including Barbra Streisand and Andy Williams.
But that doesn't make it a Christmas song, dang it! Alexa should know better...
Quote from: kphoger on December 13, 2023, 03:17:59 PM
Quote from: NWI_Irish96 on December 13, 2023, 03:11:21 PM
Quote from: kphoger on December 13, 2023, 02:58:56 PM
Quote from: 1 on December 13, 2023, 12:59:51 PM
My Favorite Things for not being a Christmas song.
You win the thread, even if nobody else noticed.
I remember that when I was a kid, NBC played that movie every December, so people can be forgiven for associating it with Christmas.
It's actually been associated with Christmas since the early 60s, not long after The Sound of Music opened. Multiple big names included it in their Christmas song collection albums in the 60s, including Barbra Streisand and Andy Williams.
But that doesn't make it a Christmas song, dang it! Alexa should know better...
Jingle Bells isn't a Christmas song either. It was written for Thanksgiving, inspired by a festival involving sleigh races.
At the risk of giving everyone an earworm, I nominate, "Christmas Don't Be Late" by Alvin and the Chipmunks.
Quote from: GaryV on December 13, 2023, 03:47:04 PM
Jingle Bells isn't a Christmas song either. It was written for Thanksgiving, inspired by a festival involving sleigh races.
Heck, let's keep going down this trail.
Joy to the World, by Isaac Watts*, isn't about Christmas either: it's about the
future return of Jesus at the Second Coming.
*
Not that I'm saying the one by Three Dog Night is about Christmas or anything...
Grandma Got Run Over By a Reindeer
Quote from: TheHighwayMan394 on December 13, 2023, 02:48:17 PM
Baby It's Cold Outside - creepy
(Obligatory "not a Christmas song")
I'm in the camp of this song is not creepy - Frank Loesser (also the composer of
Guys and Dolls) wrote this as a novelty song that he would play and sing with his wife at parties. The banter and turn of phrase is typical for the 1940s - "say, what's in this drink" is a line that's used in a bunch of movies and radio shows from the period.
The couple is flirting, and has already been hooking up ("lend me your comb"), and the woman wants to stay from the jump (she says "maybe just a half a drink more" as early as the second stanza) - but the societal mores of the time said the woman had to put up the front of being demure lest she be seen as a hussy. Her excuses and his counters get more and more ridiculous as the song goes on - references to her gossipy maiden aunt and his claiming she'll die of pneumonia.
Loesser's shows are full of female characters who have power and agency over their romantic interests, and win the "battle of the sexes." I do not believe his intent with this song in any way implied or endorsed non-consensual relations.
My brain is going between "All I Want for Christmas Is My Two Front Teeth" and "I Want A Hippopotamus for Christmas".
"Chestnuts Roasting On An Open Fire":
Quote
Chestnuts roasting on an open fire,
Jack Frost nipping on your nose,
Yuletide carols being sung by a choir,
And folks dressed up like Eskimos.
You take 17 years, 9 months, 11 days, 16 hours, 58 minutes, and 36 seconds at a blistering 3 BPM just to list a bunch of random shit that happens in winter (only the carols are specifically Christmas-related), and throw in a borderline ethnic slur for good measure. A+ job there, buckaroo.
Quote from: 1 on December 13, 2023, 12:59:51 PM
My Favorite Things for not being a Christmas song.
Same is true of Vince Guaraldi's "Linus and Lucy" (it's the theme to
Peanuts and was used in all of their TV specials; but some idiots throw it in the Christmas heap because it was used in the Christmas special as well).
"I Want a Hippopotamus for Christmas" for sure.
I both love and hate "Little Saint Nick" by The Beach Boys. The song is great, but the part where they sing "Christmas comes this time each year" is so self-evidently dumb. I feel like "Christmas Don't Be Late" is at least excusable in that regard given that the chipmunks are singing it.
12 Days of Christmas.
Quote from: CoreySamson on December 13, 2023, 05:34:08 PM
The song is great, but the part where they sing "Christmas comes this time each year" is so self-evidently dumb.
Did you know that December 25 falls on December 25 every year? Science!
Quote from: Scott5114 on December 13, 2023, 05:30:12 PM
"Chestnuts Roasting On An Open Fire":
Quote
Chestnuts roasting on an open fire,
Jack Frost nipping on your nose,
Yuletide carols being sung by a choir,
And folks dressed up like Eskimos.
Quote from: 1 on December 13, 2023, 12:59:51 PM
My Favorite Things for not being a Christmas song.
Same is true of Vince Guaraldi's "Linus and Lucy" (it's the theme to Peanuts and was used in all of their TV specials; but some idiots throw it in the Christmas heap because it was used in the Christmas special as well).
Psst: The Christmas Special was its debut, which is why it is associated with Christmas.
My nomination is The Christmas Shoes, which, listening to it for the first time, tugs at your heartstrings. Then, you go over the lyrics and it's disgusting:
1) God cares what shoes we die in?
2) We should pay our last dime to buy such?
It's commercialism of Christmas at its worst.
Quote from: 74/171FAN on December 13, 2023, 05:26:43 PM
My brain is going between "All I Want for Christmas Is Your Two Front Teeth"
Christmas just took a dark/creepy turn here... :)
Quote from: Rothman on December 13, 2023, 05:42:33 PM
Quote from: Scott5114 on December 13, 2023, 05:30:12 PM
"Chestnuts Roasting On An Open Fire":
Quote
Chestnuts roasting on an open fire,
Jack Frost nipping on your nose,
Yuletide carols being sung by a choir,
And folks dressed up like Eskimos.
Quote from: 1 on December 13, 2023, 12:59:51 PM
My Favorite Things for not being a Christmas song.
Same is true of Vince Guaraldi's "Linus and Lucy" (it's the theme to Peanuts and was used in all of their TV specials; but some idiots throw it in the Christmas heap because it was used in the Christmas special as well).
Psst: The Christmas Special was its debut, which is why it is associated with Christmas.
Justin Trudeau also debuted on Christmas, but nobody associates him with Christmas, because he is not inherently Christmas-related.
Quote from: BlueOutback7 on December 13, 2023, 01:00:32 PM
Last Christmas by Wham
I just spend two weeks in Japan at the end of November and heard this song a lot in stores/malls. Apparently Christmas is more of a romantic holiday over there so I guess it sticks.
Quote from: kphoger on December 13, 2023, 03:17:59 PM
Quote from: NWI_Irish96 on December 13, 2023, 03:11:21 PM
Quote from: kphoger on December 13, 2023, 02:58:56 PM
Quote from: 1 on December 13, 2023, 12:59:51 PM
My Favorite Things for not being a Christmas song.
You win the thread, even if nobody else noticed.
I remember that when I was a kid, NBC played that movie every December, so people can be forgiven for associating it with Christmas.
It's actually been associated with Christmas since the early 60s, not long after The Sound of Music opened. Multiple big names included it in their Christmas song collection albums in the 60s, including Barbra Streisand and Andy Williams.
But that doesn't make it a Christmas song, dang it! Alexa should know better...
Apparently the first person to sing My Favorite Things at Christmas time was Julie Andrews herself back in 1961, four years before she played Maria in the Sound of Music movie.
Quote from: Scott5114 on December 13, 2023, 05:46:17 PM
Quote from: Rothman on December 13, 2023, 05:42:33 PM
Quote from: Scott5114 on December 13, 2023, 05:30:12 PM
"Chestnuts Roasting On An Open Fire":
Quote
Chestnuts roasting on an open fire,
Jack Frost nipping on your nose,
Yuletide carols being sung by a choir,
And folks dressed up like Eskimos.
Quote from: 1 on December 13, 2023, 12:59:51 PM
My Favorite Things for not being a Christmas song.
Same is true of Vince Guaraldi's "Linus and Lucy" (it's the theme to Peanuts and was used in all of their TV specials; but some idiots throw it in the Christmas heap because it was used in the Christmas special as well).
Psst: The Christmas Special was its debut, which is why it is associated with Christmas.
Justin Trudeau also debuted on Christmas, but nobody associates him with Christmas, because he is not inherently Christmas-related.
I did not know this about the Prime Minister.
Got a copy ot A Charlie Brown Christmas' score and Linus and Lucy is in there.
Quote from: 7/8 on December 13, 2023, 01:24:52 PM
My first thought is 12 Days of Christmas, it's long and repetitive, and most of the gifts are stupid.
Have you tried The 12 Pains of Christmas (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cKZfYTBDkso)?
My own pick: Woe to the person standing near me when "Feliz Navidad" is heard.
Quote from: DTComposer on December 13, 2023, 05:46:10 PM
Quote from: 74/171FAN on December 13, 2023, 05:26:43 PM
My brain is going between "All I Want for Christmas Is Your Two Front Teeth"
Christmas just took a dark/creepy turn here... :)
The fact I accidentally stated "Your" instead of "My" shows how obnoxious the song is.
In regard to The Redneck Christmas Songs, I'll nominate "Chasin' That Neon Reindeer" just for the President line.
Mommy Kissing Santa might have been cute or clever 60 years ago. Now it's overplayed, trite, and annoying.
With that said, last night walking around Midtown, the number of bike rickshaws that had speakers blasting "All I Want for Christmas Is You" made me very tired of that song within about 15 minutes. Especially because I don't know most of the words and the ones I do know then got stuck in my head.
Quote from: JayhawkCO on December 13, 2023, 05:11:43 PM
Grandma Got Run Over By a Reindeer
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pyrv6NxpsKA
Silent Night by far
Quote from: JayhawkCO on December 13, 2023, 05:11:43 PM
Grandma Got Run Over By a Reindeer
Only this song can take a festive moment and turn it into a tragedy.
Quote from: DTComposer on December 13, 2023, 05:23:37 PM
Quote from: TheHighwayMan394 on December 13, 2023, 02:48:17 PM
Baby It's Cold Outside - creepy
(Obligatory "not a Christmas song")
I'm in the camp of this song is not creepy - Frank Loesser (also the composer of Guys and Dolls) wrote this as a novelty song that he would play and sing with his wife at parties. The banter and turn of phrase is typical for the 1940s - "say, what's in this drink" is a line that's used in a bunch of movies and radio shows from the period.
The couple is flirting, and has already been hooking up ("lend me your comb"), and the woman wants to stay from the jump (she says "maybe just a half a drink more" as early as the second stanza) - but the societal mores of the time said the woman had to put up the front of being demure lest she be seen as a hussy. Her excuses and his counters get more and more ridiculous as the song goes on - references to her gossipy maiden aunt and his claiming she'll die of pneumonia.
Loesser's shows are full of female characters who have power and agency over their romantic interests, and win the "battle of the sexes." I do not believe his intent with this song in any way implied or endorsed non-consensual relations.
True, but also I'd argue that the song's very much aged poorly in a way the writer probably couldn't predict. After all, the sexual revolution was still a few decades off...
Despite being (nominally) Christian, I'd argue that a lot of Christian Christmas Hymns,
especially the ones various artists and musicians decided to record for Christmas albums, very much count among my least favorites. Ironically, Sleigh Ride, Jingle Bell Rock, and Simply Having A Wonderful Christmas Time tend to rank higher for me, or at least some versions do.
Quote from: BlueOutback7 on December 13, 2023, 01:00:32 PM
Last Christmas by Wham
Not just the original version by Wham, but also the countless remakes done by whomever. Just spend a little time in Walmart this time of year and you'll hear at least a dozen other versions of it, and I'm not being hyperbolic at all.
Yesterday I heard a song at the store I hadn't heard before, "Baby I'm Coming Home" by Ally Brooke. The opening two lines of the song are:
QuoteSnow falling down from the sky
I'm running all the red lights
And the award for "Christmas song whose singer is most likely to get into a car crash" goes to...
Quote from: kphoger on December 13, 2023, 03:17:59 PM
Quote from: NWI_Irish96 on December 13, 2023, 03:11:21 PM
Quote from: kphoger on December 13, 2023, 02:58:56 PM
Quote from: 1 on December 13, 2023, 12:59:51 PM
My Favorite Things for not being a Christmas song.
You win the thread, even if nobody else noticed.
I remember that when I was a kid, NBC played that movie every December, so people can be forgiven for associating it with Christmas.
It's actually been associated with Christmas since the early 60s, not long after The Sound of Music opened. Multiple big names included it in their Christmas song collection albums in the 60s, including Barbra Streisand and Andy Williams.
But that doesn't make it a Christmas song, dang it! Alexa should know better...
I'm with you. My 6th grade class way back when had to sing this as part of my elementary school's Christmas pageant. Given its placement in the movie where Maria uses it to calm the children, I thought it was a stupid choice and told my teacher that. Her reply: "Well, it just sounds like a Christmas song." Uh, not to me it didn't (and still doesn't).
Despite having worked in retail and being subjected to Christmas songs on repeat for hours on end, none of the songs in the poll bug me very much. My absolute most hated songs, though:
Happy Xmas (War is Over) - I personally don't consider this a Christmas song, it's a Vietnam War protest song
My Favorite Things - this isn't a Christmas song and The Sound of Music isn't a Christmas movie
I Want a Hippopotamus for Christmas - this song is extremely irritating to listen to, plus the singer has never received any royalties
We Need a Little Christmas - no, not right this very minute
Wonderful Christmas Time
Little Saint Nick - it's literally Little Deuce Coupe with different lyrics
Do They Know It's Christmas - probably one of the most insensitive Christmas songs ever written
Baby It's Cold Outside - for obvious reasons
Last Christmas...but specifically the version by the Glee cast - The original song is fine. The Glee version takes it and makes it teeth-rottingly sugar sweet and it's incredibly irritating.
I'm on the side of the line that considers Baby, It's Cold Outside a song of mutual flirtation and the haters read too much of a modern take into the lyrics.
That said, if people can't accept that phrasing has changed meaning over the years ("fun drink" versus "secret drugging"), then it's just unfortunate that the resulting offense prevents the song from continuing to be broadcasted.
Quote from: WillWeaverRVA on December 14, 2023, 10:38:18 AM
I Want a Hippopotamus for Christmas - this song is extremely irritating to listen to, plus the singer has never received any royalties
And a glleeful song about what is regarded by many as the least attractive and most dangerous mammal in all of Africa.
:ded:
Mike
Quote from: tdindy88 on December 13, 2023, 05:56:33 PM
Apparently the first person to sing My Favorite Things at Christmas time was Julie Andrews herself back in 1961, four years before she played Maria in the Sound of Music movie.
That bolded word is important.
The Sound of Music hit Broadway in November '59.
Quote from: catch22 on December 14, 2023, 07:40:22 AM
I'm with you. My 6th grade class way back when had to sing this as part of my elementary school's Christmas pageant. Given its placement in the movie where Maria uses it to calm the children, I thought it was a stupid choice and told my teacher that. Her reply: "Well, it just sounds like a Christmas song." Uh, not to me it didn't (and still doesn't).
Winter-related phraseswarm woolen mittens
sleigh bells
Snowflakes that stay on my nose and eyelashes
Silver-white winters
Could be interpreted as Christmas gifts:packages tied up with strings
Then again . . . Raindrops on roses . . .
Quote from: Rothman on December 14, 2023, 10:58:22 AM
I'm on the side of the line that considers Baby, It's Cold Outside a song of mutual flirtation and the haters read too much of a modern take into the lyrics.
That said, if people can't accept that phrasing has changed meaning over the years ("fun drink" versus "secret drugging"), then it's just unfortunate that the resulting offense prevents the song from continuing to be broadcasted.
Agreed with you on all points.
The lyrics really sound to me like the inner turmoil of two lovers deciding between (a) parting ways before their romantic urges get the better of their self-control and (b) giving in to those urges and saying
To hell with it!But some phrases just haven't aged well into our modern era. "I ought to say no" implies nowadays that she's being pressed against her will, even if that wasn't the song's original intent. The very next line, "At least I'm gonna say that I tried", very poetically shows the inner tension going on—that she only plans to give a token effort at turning down his advances, just enough to make herself feel better later on—but such subtlety gets drowned out by other phrases. And that's the problem, when you get down to it: the lyrics are so full of hints and shadows and tension, that a casual listening doesn't tease out that real meaning, and instead all listeners hear are things like "what's in this drink?".
Quote from: Rothman on December 14, 2023, 10:58:22 AM
I'm on the side of the line that considers Baby, It's Cold Outside a song of mutual flirtation and the haters read too much of a modern take into the lyrics.
Also, it's not about Christmas. It just gets lumped in with Christmas songs because the weather it mentions is cold, in line with an number of other songs people have mentioned.
Quote from: CtrlAltDel on December 14, 2023, 02:07:11 PM
Quote from: Rothman on December 14, 2023, 10:58:22 AM
I'm on the side of the line that considers Baby, It's Cold Outside a song of mutual flirtation and the haters read too much of a modern take into the lyrics.
Also, it's not about Christmas. It just gets lumped in with Christmas songs because the weather it mentions is cold, in line with an number of other songs people have mentioned.
To be fair, does anyone listen to winter-themed music of any kind after December 25?
Quote from: TheHighwayMan394 on December 14, 2023, 03:56:43 PM
Quote from: CtrlAltDel on December 14, 2023, 02:07:11 PM
Quote from: Rothman on December 14, 2023, 10:58:22 AM
I'm on the side of the line that considers Baby, It's Cold Outside a song of mutual flirtation and the haters read too much of a modern take into the lyrics.
Also, it's not about Christmas. It just gets lumped in with Christmas songs because the weather it mentions is cold, in line with an number of other songs people have mentioned.
To be fair, does anyone listen to winter-themed music of any kind after December 25?
That is the problem I have noticed. The northeast tends to get more snow in January, February, and March than December so why stop winter music after December 25th?
Quote from: WillWeaverRVA on December 14, 2023, 10:38:18 AMDo They Know It's Christmas - probably one of the most insensitive Christmas songs ever written.
As much I detest the overused phrase "...unless you're living under a rock...", it's so egregiously, smugly, and glaringly obvious it's
that time of year.
Quote from: kphoger on December 14, 2023, 01:59:36 PM
Quote from: Rothman on December 14, 2023, 10:58:22 AM
I'm on the side of the line that considers Baby, It's Cold Outside a song of mutual flirtation and the haters read too much of a modern take into the lyrics.
That said, if people can't accept that phrasing has changed meaning over the years ("fun drink" versus "secret drugging"), then it's just unfortunate that the resulting offense prevents the song from continuing to be broadcasted.
Agreed with you on all points.
The lyrics really sound to me like the inner turmoil of two lovers deciding between (a) parting ways before their romantic urges get the better of their self-control and (b) giving in to those urges and saying To hell with it!
But some phrases just haven't aged well into our modern era. "I ought to say no" implies nowadays that she's being pressed against her will, even if that wasn't the song's original intent. The very next line, "At least I'm gonna say that I tried", very poetically shows the inner tension going on—that she only plans to give a token effort at turning down his advances, just enough to make herself feel better later on—but such subtlety gets drowned out by other phrases. And that's the problem, when you get down to it: the lyrics are so full of hints and shadows and tension, that a casual listening doesn't tease out that real meaning, and instead all listeners hear are things like "what's in this drink?".
Well, the man does have good points, and credit him for offering to hold her hands that are "just like ice", and also to take her hat while complimenting on her swell-looking hair. Also, if nothing else, he is being honest in bringing up the fact that there are "no cabs to be had out there," plus I see concern in him while he points out her potential death if she takes her chances with the raging storm. "So really I'd better scurry"? How about calling your folks and inform them you're all right?
Quote from: Henry on December 13, 2023, 10:29:44 PM
Quote from: JayhawkCO on December 13, 2023, 05:11:43 PM
Grandma Got Run Over By a Reindeer
Only this song can take a festive moment and turn it into a tragedy.
Oh you sweet summer child, you've never heard Red Sovine's "Billy's Christmas Wish (Faith in Santa)" have you...
Grandma mercifully died quick under that reindeer.
Yes, it is a country song, why do you ask?
Quote from: CtrlAltDel on December 14, 2023, 02:07:11 PM
Quote from: Rothman on December 14, 2023, 10:58:22 AM
I'm on the side of the line that considers Baby, It's Cold Outside a song of mutual flirtation and the haters read too much of a modern take into the lyrics.
Also, it's not about Christmas. It just gets lumped in with Christmas songs because the weather it mentions is cold, in line with an number of other songs people have mentioned.
My takeaway is that a lot of the people being offended by the song tend to be of the those that don't really get how dating works.
I've been growing less and less interested in Christmas songs over the years, to a point where if I gotta go anywhere I have my headphones in with obviously better music such as SiIvaGunner rips and other shitposts. As for the answer, All I Want For Christmas Is You, by far.
Quote from: Rothman on December 13, 2023, 05:45:06 PM
My nomination is The Christmas Shoes, which, listening to it for the first time, tugs at your heartstrings. Then, you go over the lyrics and it's disgusting:
1) God cares what shoes we die in?
2) We should pay our last dime to buy such?
It's commercialism of Christmas at its worst.
You've heard Patton Oswalt's deconstruction and destruction of The Christmas Shoes, yes?
Quote from: mikereaser on December 15, 2023, 12:00:26 AM
Quote from: Rothman on December 13, 2023, 05:45:06 PM
My nomination is The Christmas Shoes, which, listening to it for the first time, tugs at your heartstrings. Then, you go over the lyrics and it's disgusting:
1) God cares what shoes we die in?
2) We should pay our last dime to buy such?
It's commercialism of Christmas at its worst.
You've heard Patton Oswalt's deconstruction and destruction of The Christmas Shoes, yes?
Well, I have now.
This one is pretty darn bad, but I suppose because it's a children's novelty song it perhaps doesn't deserve the same level of derision as others:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jxomWFi3qZc
Quote from: Henry on December 14, 2023, 09:57:31 PM
Quote from: kphoger on December 14, 2023, 01:59:36 PM
Quote from: Rothman on December 14, 2023, 10:58:22 AM
I'm on the side of the line that considers Baby, It's Cold Outside a song of mutual flirtation and the haters read too much of a modern take into the lyrics.
That said, if people can't accept that phrasing has changed meaning over the years ("fun drink" versus "secret drugging"), then it's just unfortunate that the resulting offense prevents the song from continuing to be broadcasted.
Agreed with you on all points.
The lyrics really sound to me like the inner turmoil of two lovers deciding between (a) parting ways before their romantic urges get the better of their self-control and (b) giving in to those urges and saying To hell with it!
But some phrases just haven't aged well into our modern era. "I ought to say no" implies nowadays that she's being pressed against her will, even if that wasn't the song's original intent. The very next line, "At least I'm gonna say that I tried", very poetically shows the inner tension going on—that she only plans to give a token effort at turning down his advances, just enough to make herself feel better later on—but such subtlety gets drowned out by other phrases. And that's the problem, when you get down to it: the lyrics are so full of hints and shadows and tension, that a casual listening doesn't tease out that real meaning, and instead all listeners hear are things like "what's in this drink?".
Well, the man does have good points, and credit him for offering to hold her hands that are "just like ice", and also to take her hat while complimenting on her swell-looking hair. Also, if nothing else, he is being honest in bringing up the fact that there are "no cabs to be had out there," plus I see concern in him while he points out her potential death if she takes her chances with the raging storm. "So really I'd better scurry"? How about calling your folks and inform them you're all right?
OK, you went further than I'm prepared to go. The man in that song is clearly the more eager of the two for their night together to get more ... umm ... shall we say, intimate. This doesn't mean it's a matter of sexual harassment or abuse or anything, but it also means he's not exactly the perfect gentleman. My point was merely that the woman in the song is only half-interested in resisting his advances, because she also wants it too—she's just also paying more attention to her better judgment than he is.
By the way, as for the whole "Say, what's in this drink?" line... When my wife asks me to mix her a cocktail, and then either she really likes it or else she notices it's stronger than she expected, that's exactly the sort of question she asks me. Judging by the context of the verse that line is in, I think it implies that the drink is a strong one, and she's starting to notice its effect on her self-control. That's no more predatory on his part than when I make a stiff drink for my own wife.
By the way, it makes me happy that we're this far into the thread and nobody has nominated
Dominick the Donkey. I can only presume this means everyone considers it to be an excellent Christmas song.
Quote from: kphoger on December 15, 2023, 11:38:10 AM
By the way, it makes me happy that we're this far into the thread and nobody has nominated Dominick the Donkey. I can only presume this means everyone considers it to be an excellent Christmas song.
Thankfully, it doesn't get too much airplay as to spoil it.
Quote from: tmoore952 on December 15, 2023, 10:55:23 AM
My feeling is, if we're going to secularize Christmas as much as we have, and take the religion out of it, despite the name of the holiday, we should rename the holiday to something else.
In
Futurama, they used Xmas.
Quote from: tmoore952 on December 15, 2023, 10:55:23 AM
Similar to how the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame has morphed into something else.
Did they rename the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame?
Quote from: CtrlAltDel on December 15, 2023, 11:42:30 AM
Quote from: tmoore952 on December 15, 2023, 10:55:23 AM
My feeling is, if we're going to secularize Christmas as much as we have, and take the religion out of it, despite the name of the holiday, we should rename the holiday to something else.
In Futurama, they used Xmas.
Of course, the X in Xmas comes from the centuries-old scribal shorthand for 'Christ', because the Greek word for Christ begins with the letter Χ. Thus, Xmas means Christmas in the most literal sense possible.
Quote from: kphoger on December 15, 2023, 11:38:10 AM
By the way, it makes me happy that we're this far into the thread and nobody has nominated Dominick the Donkey. I can only presume this means everyone considers it to be an excellent Christmas song.
I was thinking about that the other day because it was performed at our office Christmas party on Tuesday (it is a favorite of one particular colleague). I commented that I couldn't help but wonder what all the snowflaky 20-somethings think about a song that might be deemed stereotypical by some people.
Quote from: kphoger on December 15, 2023, 11:45:58 AM
Quote from: CtrlAltDel on December 15, 2023, 11:42:30 AM
Quote from: tmoore952 on December 15, 2023, 10:55:23 AM
My feeling is, if we're going to secularize Christmas as much as we have, and take the religion out of it, despite the name of the holiday, we should rename the holiday to something else.
In Futurama, they used Xmas.
Of course, the X in Xmas comes from the centuries-old scribal shorthand for 'Christ', because the Greek word for Christ begins with the letter Χ. Thus, Xmas means Christmas in the most literal sense possible.
:clap: :clap: :clap: I always roll my eyes at the hyper-fundamentalist types who think "Xmas" is "irreverent" or "disrespectful." They're probably the same people who feel that "if English was good enough for Jaysus Christ, it's good enough for you."
Quote from: tmoore952 on December 15, 2023, 10:55:23 AM
The Catholics ....
I'm not sure what to make of this wording. Apparently it's considered disrespectful these days to refer to black people as "the blacks" (Trump did that in 2016, saying "I've always had a good relationship with the blacks," and it sparked a minor firestorm because it was deemed offensive). Certainly people are cautious about saying "the Jews" (some people won't even use the word "Jew" at all, which is a bit extreme in terms of being overly cautious). I'm not sure how saying "the Catholics" is any different.
Quote from: 1995hoo on December 15, 2023, 11:48:19 AM
Quote from: tmoore952 on December 15, 2023, 10:55:23 AM
The Catholics ....
I'm not sure what to make of this wording. Apparently it's considered disrespectful these days to refer to black people as "the blacks" (Trump did that in 2016, saying "I've always had a good relationship with the blacks," and it sparked a minor firestorm because it was deemed offensive). Certainly people are cautious about saying "the Jews" (some people won't even use the word "Jew" at all, which is a bit extreme in terms of being overly cautious). I'm not sure how saying "the Catholics" is any different.
At the risk of revealing more about myself than I want:
I am a Catholic. I am speaking from my experience. The (or one) answer to the "after Dec 25" question is religious denominations. I can only speak to what I know, hence I did not mention other denominations. It may make a difference whether the person saying "The "such-and-such-a-group"" is actually a member of that group.
Since this is so offensive, I will delete my earlier post.
Quote from: kphoger on December 15, 2023, 11:45:58 AM
Quote from: CtrlAltDel on December 15, 2023, 11:42:30 AM
Quote from: tmoore952 on December 15, 2023, 10:55:23 AM
My feeling is, if we're going to secularize Christmas as much as we have, and take the religion out of it, despite the name of the holiday, we should rename the holiday to something else.
In Futurama, they used Xmas.
Of course, the X in Xmas comes from the centuries-old scribal shorthand for 'Christ', because the Greek word for Christ begins with the letter Χ. Thus, Xmas means Christmas in the most literal sense possible.
Unicode is fun!
Quote from: 1995hoo on December 15, 2023, 11:48:19 AM
Quote from: tmoore952 on December 15, 2023, 10:55:23 AM
The Catholics ....
I'm not sure what to make of this wording. Apparently it's considered disrespectful these days to refer to black people as "the blacks" (Trump did that in 2016, saying "I've always had a good relationship with the blacks," and it sparked a minor firestorm because it was deemed offensive). Certainly people are cautious about saying "the Jews" (some people won't even use the word "Jew" at all, which is a bit extreme in terms of being overly cautious). I'm not sure how saying "the Catholics" is any different.
Please tell me you don't say "Catholic people" instead. :-P
Or "Catholic-Americans" ...
Quote from: kphoger on December 15, 2023, 01:09:34 PM
Quote from: 1995hoo on December 15, 2023, 11:48:19 AM
Quote from: tmoore952 on December 15, 2023, 10:55:23 AM
The Catholics ....
I'm not sure what to make of this wording. Apparently it's considered disrespectful these days to refer to black people as "the blacks" (Trump did that in 2016, saying "I've always had a good relationship with the blacks," and it sparked a minor firestorm because it was deemed offensive). Certainly people are cautious about saying "the Jews" (some people won't even use the word "Jew" at all, which is a bit extreme in terms of being overly cautious). I'm not sure how saying "the Catholics" is any different.
Please tell me you don't say "Catholic people" instead. :-P
Or "Catholic-Americans" ...
What's wrong with just plain "Catholics"? Why is the article "the" apparently needed?
Quote from: 1995hoo on December 15, 2023, 01:35:07 PM
What's wrong with just plain "Catholics"? Why is the article "the" apparently needed?
Nothing's wrong with just plain "Catholics". But you're the one who compared using the article to "the blacks" (black people, or African-Americans?) and "the Jews" (Jewish people, or Jewish Americans?). I don't know. ?
Out of curiosity, what is your preferred shorthand way of referring to members of the Eastern Orthodox traditions in the same verbal context? "Of course, Orthodoxes celebrate Christmas in January" ??
Quote from: 1995hoo on December 15, 2023, 11:48:19 AM
:clap: :clap: :clap: I always roll my eyes at the hyper-fundamentalist types who think "Xmas" is "irreverent" or "disrespectful." They're probably the same people who feel that "if English was good enough for Jaysus Christ, it's good enough for you."
Just to play devil's advocate here (haha), not every Mr. Smith out there would be happy being called Mr. S.
Quote from: 1995hoo on December 15, 2023, 11:48:19 AM
Quote from: kphoger on December 15, 2023, 11:38:10 AM
Of course, the X in Xmas comes from the centuries-old scribal shorthand for 'Christ', because the Greek word for Christ begins with the letter Χ. Thus, Xmas means Christmas in the most literal sense possible.
:clap: :clap: :clap: I always roll my eyes at the hyper-fundamentalist types who think "Xmas" is..."disrespectful."...
I had a coworker many years ago that felt this way. He took it as the X was crossing out Christ.
Of course, my mom who believes I still believes I'm in elementary school tried telling me recently that Xmas was shorthand for Christmas. I came close to drawing blood biting my lip, ultimately just saying "I know".
Quote from: CtrlAltDel on December 15, 2023, 02:01:22 PM
Quote from: 1995hoo on December 15, 2023, 11:48:19 AM
:clap: :clap: :clap: I always roll my eyes at the hyper-fundamentalist types who think "Xmas" is "irreverent" or "disrespectful." They're probably the same people who feel that "if English was good enough for Jaysus Christ, it's good enough for you."
Just to play devil's advocate here (haha), not every Mr. Smith out there would be happy being called Mr. S.
Yeah, said medieval scribes certainly weren't pronouncing it as "Exmas" either.
Quote from: 1995hoo on December 15, 2023, 11:48:19 AM
I always roll my eyes at the hyper-fundamentalist types who think "Xmas" is "irreverent" or "disrespectful." They're probably the same people who feel that "if English was good enough for Jaysus Christ, it's good enough for you."
When I was in college, there was a local congregation that paid for a column in the newspaper every week. We read it for laughs. They spouted all kinds of opinions. One of them was like the above sentiment. You didn't need all the new translations of the Bible, the King James was good enough, and the Holy Spirit would interpret it for you. In this day and age, that church's opinions would be online somewhere, and I could ask them, "Why don't you read the Bible in it's original Hebrew and Greek, if it doesn't need a modern-language translation?"
Another fun opinion was that hymns should be sung without musical accompaniment, because in the Bible it said Jesus and the Disciples sung a hymn, and it doesn't mention any instruments. They said you might argue that David played a harp, but that didn't count because David also was an adulterer.
Quote from: kphoger on December 15, 2023, 01:44:07 PM
Quote from: 1995hoo on December 15, 2023, 01:35:07 PM
What's wrong with just plain "Catholics"? Why is the article "the" apparently needed?
Nothing's wrong with just plain "Catholics". But you're the one who compared using the article to "the blacks" (black people, or African-Americans?) and "the Jews" (Jewish people, or Jewish Americans?). I don't know. ?
Out of curiosity, what is your preferred shorthand way of referring to members of the Eastern Orthodox traditions in the same verbal context? "Of course, Orthodoxes celebrate Christmas in January" ??
The last time I made reference to that sort of thing, I was explaining something to my wife and I think I said something along the lines of, "Some of the Orthodox Churches haven't adopted the Gregorian calendar and they map the civil date onto the old Julian calendar to determine the dates for holy days. That includes celebrating Christmas on January 7." Or something like that, anyway. For what it's worth, not all of the Orthodox Churches use the Julian calendar for ecclesiastical purposes—the Finnish Orthodox Church celebrates Easter according to the Gregorian calendar and the Estonian Apostolic Orthodox Church used to do the same (but doesn't anymore). I don't know when the Finnish Orthodox Church celebrates Christmas (I'm not going to ask Poiponen13, of course), but I note they observe the Circumcision of Christ on January 1, so that would imply December 25 (the circumcision coming eight days after Christmas per Luke 2:21).
Quote from: GaryV on December 15, 2023, 02:20:31 PM
I could ask them, "Why don't you read the Bible in it's original Hebrew and Greek, ..."
Obvious answer: none of the originals have survived, so far as we know. :)
Quote from: 1995hoo on December 15, 2023, 02:23:22 PM
Quote from: kphoger on December 15, 2023, 01:44:07 PM
what is your preferred shorthand
Some of the Orthodox Churches
That's the equivalent of saying "the Roman Catholic Church", not shorthand for referring to the people therein.
Quote from: NWI_Irish96 on December 13, 2023, 03:10:25 PM
Quote from: 7/8 on December 13, 2023, 01:24:52 PM
Quote from: BlueOutback7 on December 13, 2023, 01:00:32 PM
Last Christmas by Wham
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on December 13, 2023, 01:06:06 PM
Last Christmas
Ouch, I really like this song! Time to give it another listen. :-D
I like that song too. In addition to the Wham original, the cast of Glee and Ariana Grande both have nice cover versions.
I'm not a fan of Last Christmas, but I am amused by participating in a pool of actuaries playing Whamageddon each holiday season.
Dominick the Donkey is one of my favorite Christmas songs.
Quote from: Rothman on December 15, 2023, 04:05:15 PM
Dominick the Donkey is one of my favorite Christmas songs.
Never heard of that one. My two favorites are "The Night Santa Went Crazy" and "Christmas at Ground Zero"
Quote from: NWI_Irish96 on December 15, 2023, 04:55:18 PM
Quote from: Rothman on December 15, 2023, 04:05:15 PM
Dominick the Donkey is one of my favorite Christmas songs.
Never heard of that one.
You'll either love it or hate it. But, with any luck, even if you hate it, it'll grow on you.
Quote from: CtrlAltDel on December 15, 2023, 11:42:30 AM
Quote from: tmoore952 on December 15, 2023, 10:55:23 AM
Similar to how the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame has morphed into something else.
Did they rename the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame?
Since when is Eminem considered "rock and roll"? Great artist, but not a rock and roll artist despite his presence in the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame.
Quote from: NWI_Irish96 on December 15, 2023, 04:55:18 PM
Quote from: Rothman on December 15, 2023, 04:05:15 PM
Dominick the Donkey is one of my favorite Christmas songs.
Never heard of that one. My two favorites are "The Night Santa Went Crazy" and "Christmas at Ground Zero"
Christmas at Ground Zero is easily one of the best, if not the best, Christmas song ever written.
"It's Christmas at ground zero! The button has been pressed. The radio, just let us know, this is not a test..."
Quote from: kphoger on December 15, 2023, 03:07:44 PM
Quote from: GaryV on December 15, 2023, 02:20:31 PM
I could ask them, "Why don't you read the Bible in it's original Hebrew and Greek, ..."
Obvious answer: none of the originals have survived, so far as we know. :)
Quote from: 1995hoo on December 15, 2023, 02:23:22 PM
Quote from: kphoger on December 15, 2023, 01:44:07 PM
what is your preferred shorthand
Some of the Orthodox Churches
That's the equivalent of saying "the Roman Catholic Church", not shorthand for referring to the people therein.
I would quibble with that. Saying "the Russian Orthodox Church" or "the Finnish Orthodox Church" or whatever is the equivalent of saying "the Roman Catholic Church." Notwithstanding common American misusage, the "Catholic Church" and the "Roman Catholic Church" are not the same thing.
Quote from: 1995hoo on December 15, 2023, 06:23:00 PM
Quote from: kphoger on December 15, 2023, 03:07:44 PM
Quote from: GaryV on December 15, 2023, 02:20:31 PM
I could ask them, "Why don't you read the Bible in it's original Hebrew and Greek, ..."
Obvious answer: none of the originals have survived, so far as we know. :)
Quote from: 1995hoo on December 15, 2023, 02:23:22 PM
Quote from: kphoger on December 15, 2023, 01:44:07 PM
what is your preferred shorthand
Some of the Orthodox Churches
That's the equivalent of saying "the Roman Catholic Church", not shorthand for referring to the people therein.
I would quibble with that. Saying "the Russian Orthodox Church" or "the Finnish Orthodox Church" or whatever is the equivalent of saying "the Roman Catholic Church." Notwithstanding common American misusage, the "Catholic Church" and the "Roman Catholic Church" are not the same thing.
Is this what normal people argue about instead of control cities?
Quote from: MikeTheActuary on December 15, 2023, 03:31:58 PM
Quote from: NWI_Irish96 on December 13, 2023, 03:10:25 PM
Quote from: 7/8 on December 13, 2023, 01:24:52 PM
Quote from: BlueOutback7 on December 13, 2023, 01:00:32 PM
Last Christmas by Wham
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on December 13, 2023, 01:06:06 PM
Last Christmas
Ouch, I really like this song! Time to give it another listen. :-D
I like that song too. In addition to the Wham original, the cast of Glee and Ariana Grande both have nice cover versions.
I'm not a fan of Last Christmas, but I am amused by participating in a pool of actuaries playing Whamageddon each holiday season.
I have a Christmas light display where people driving by can tune to a radio station I'm broadcasting from my computer (90.7 FM). Last Christmas is one of those songs, so I'm out of this game before the season even begins.
Quote from: freebrickproductions on December 15, 2023, 06:11:11 PM
Quote from: NWI_Irish96 on December 15, 2023, 04:55:18 PM
Quote from: Rothman on December 15, 2023, 04:05:15 PM
Dominick the Donkey is one of my favorite Christmas songs.
Never heard of that one. My two favorites are "The Night Santa Went Crazy" and "Christmas at Ground Zero"
Christmas at Ground Zero is easily one of the best, if not the best, Christmas song ever written.
"It's Christmas at ground zero! The button has been pressed. The radio, just let us know, this is not a test..."
Since I was on the topic of SiIvaGunner earlier in this thread, and Christmas at Ground Zero was brought up, anyone remember Diddy Kong Racing?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=95M6T2bvs1A
Quote from: Scott5114 on December 15, 2023, 06:31:35 PM
Quote from: 1995hoo on December 15, 2023, 06:23:00 PM
Quote from: kphoger on December 15, 2023, 03:07:44 PM
Quote from: GaryV on December 15, 2023, 02:20:31 PM
I could ask them, "Why don't you read the Bible in it's original Hebrew and Greek, ..."
Obvious answer: none of the originals have survived, so far as we know. :)
Quote from: 1995hoo on December 15, 2023, 02:23:22 PM
Quote from: kphoger on December 15, 2023, 01:44:07 PM
what is your preferred shorthand
Some of the Orthodox Churches
That's the equivalent of saying "the Roman Catholic Church", not shorthand for referring to the people therein.
I would quibble with that. Saying "the Russian Orthodox Church" or "the Finnish Orthodox Church" or whatever is the equivalent of saying "the Roman Catholic Church." Notwithstanding common American misusage, the "Catholic Church" and the "Roman Catholic Church" are not the same thing.
Is this what normal people argue about instead of control cities?
Thank you so much for saying that. It was my post that started this whole discussion -- which I subsequently deleted, because someone thought I didn't say something in a politically correct way.
As far as this subject is concerned, I'm out. I don't feel the need to share my opinions about this here anymore.
Quote from: kphoger on December 15, 2023, 05:39:42 PM
Quote from: NWI_Irish96 on December 15, 2023, 04:55:18 PM
Quote from: Rothman on December 15, 2023, 04:05:15 PM
Dominick the Donkey is one of my favorite Christmas songs.
Never heard of that one.
You'll either love it or hate it. But, with any luck, even if you hate it, it'll grow on you.
I first heard it just two years ago and wondered why I went so long without hearing it.
Definitely "All I want for Christmas is you" Mariah Carey...and the stupid Chipmunks Carol.
"Grandma Got Run Over By A Reindeer" and that God-awful John Lennon song.
I've often wondered why songs like "Jingle Bells," "Let It Snow," "Over The River and Through The Woods" and similar tunes are considered Christmas songs. They're more winter songs than Christmas songs.
Quote from: hbelkins on December 18, 2023, 01:02:58 PM
"Grandma Got Run Over By A Reindeer" and that God-awful John Lennon song.
I've often wondered why songs like "Jingle Bells," "Let It Snow," "Over The River and Through The Woods" and similar tunes are considered Christmas songs. They're more winter songs than Christmas songs.
There's not really a market for "winter songs". People generally either listen to year-round music or Christmas music, so you're only going to hear winter themed songs in a mix with Christmas songs.
Quote from: Scott5114 on December 15, 2023, 06:31:35 PM
Is this what normal people argue about instead of control cities?
No. I have never been, nor have I ever pretended to be, normal.
Quote from: hbelkins on December 18, 2023, 01:02:58 PM
I've often wondered why songs like "Jingle Bells," "Let It Snow," "Over The River and Through The Woods" and similar tunes are considered Christmas songs. They're more winter songs than Christmas songs.
Christmas is
THE winter holiday, and pretty much the only holiday that has popular music dedicated to it.
Quote from: kphoger on December 18, 2023, 02:34:03 PM
Quote from: hbelkins on December 18, 2023, 01:02:58 PM
I've often wondered why songs like "Jingle Bells," "Let It Snow," "Over The River and Through The Woods" and similar tunes are considered Christmas songs. They're more winter songs than Christmas songs.
Christmas is THE winter holiday, and pretty much the only holiday that has popular music dedicated to it.
Despite just barely sneaking into winter.
Quote from: JayhawkCO on December 18, 2023, 02:42:02 PM
Quote from: kphoger on December 18, 2023, 02:34:03 PM
Christmas is THE winter holiday, and pretty much the only holiday that has popular music dedicated to it.
Despite just barely sneaking into winter.
Historically speaking, that might not even be an accident. The historical evidence suggests a possible reason for the date of Christmas being that a handful of ancient Christian theologians believed (1) Jesus had been conceived on the same date as his later death, (2) he died on the spring equinox, (3) he had therefore been conceived on the spring equinox, (4) the equinoxes and solstices fell on the 25th of the month, and (5) Jesus was therefore born on December 25. The wrinkle is that I haven't found any evidence to suggest that the
same theologians who believed (1)
also believed (2)—especially those who were writing before the December 25 date had already been established.
Quote from: kphoger on December 18, 2023, 03:11:04 PM
Quote from: JayhawkCO on December 18, 2023, 02:42:02 PM
Quote from: kphoger on December 18, 2023, 02:34:03 PM
Christmas is THE winter holiday, and pretty much the only holiday that has popular music dedicated to it.
Despite just barely sneaking into winter.
Historically speaking, that might not even be an accident. The historical evidence suggests a possible reason for the date of Christmas being that a handful of ancient Christian theologians believed (1) Jesus had been conceived on the same date as his later death, (2) he died on the spring equinox, (3) he had therefore been conceived on the spring equinox, (4) the equinoxes and solstices fell on the 25th of the month, and (5) Jesus was therefore born on December 25. The wrinkle is that I haven't found any evidence to suggest that the same theologians who believed (1) also believed (2)—especially those who were writing before the December 25 date had already been established.
Seems... convenient. I'll leave it at that.
Quote from: kphoger on December 18, 2023, 02:34:03 PM
Quote from: Scott5114 on December 15, 2023, 06:31:35 PM
Is this what normal people argue about instead of control cities?
No. I have never been, nor have I ever pretended to be, normal.
Quote from: hbelkins on December 18, 2023, 01:02:58 PM
I've often wondered why songs like "Jingle Bells," "Let It Snow," "Over The River and Through The Woods" and similar tunes are considered Christmas songs. They're more winter songs than Christmas songs.
Christmas is THE winter holiday, and pretty much the only holiday that has popular music dedicated to it.
Here comes Peter Cottontail...
Quote from: kphoger on December 18, 2023, 03:11:04 PM
Quote from: JayhawkCO on December 18, 2023, 02:42:02 PM
Quote from: kphoger on December 18, 2023, 02:34:03 PM
Christmas is THE winter holiday, and pretty much the only holiday that has popular music dedicated to it.
Despite just barely sneaking into winter.
Historically speaking, that might not even be an accident. The historical evidence suggests a possible reason for the date of Christmas being that a handful of ancient Christian theologians believed (1) Jesus had been conceived on the same date as his later death, (2) he died on the spring equinox, (3) he had therefore been conceived on the spring equinox, (4) the equinoxes and solstices fell on the 25th of the month, and (5) Jesus was therefore born on December 25. The wrinkle is that I haven't found any evidence to suggest that the same theologians who believed (1) also believed (2)—especially those who were writing before the December 25 date had already been established.
Jesus was born on April 6th.
Quote from: Rothman on December 18, 2023, 03:33:43 PM
Quote from: kphoger on December 18, 2023, 02:34:03 PM
Quote from: Scott5114 on December 15, 2023, 06:31:35 PM
Is this what normal people argue about instead of control cities?
No. I have never been, nor have I ever pretended to be, normal.
Quote from: hbelkins on December 18, 2023, 01:02:58 PM
I've often wondered why songs like "Jingle Bells," "Let It Snow," "Over The River and Through The Woods" and similar tunes are considered Christmas songs. They're more winter songs than Christmas songs.
Christmas is THE winter holiday, and pretty much the only holiday that has popular music dedicated to it.
Here comes Peter Cottontail...
Quote from: JayhawkCO on December 18, 2023, 03:13:43 PM
Quote from: kphoger on December 18, 2023, 03:11:04 PM
Quote from: JayhawkCO on December 18, 2023, 02:42:02 PM
Quote from: kphoger on December 18, 2023, 02:34:03 PM
Christmas is THE winter holiday, and pretty much the only holiday that has popular music dedicated to it.
Despite just barely sneaking into winter.
Historically speaking, that might not even be an accident. The historical evidence suggests a possible reason for the date of Christmas being that a handful of ancient Christian theologians believed (1) Jesus had been conceived on the same date as his later death, (2) he died on the spring equinox, (3) he had therefore been conceived on the spring equinox, (4) the equinoxes and solstices fell on the 25th of the month, and (5) Jesus was therefore born on December 25. The wrinkle is that I haven't found any evidence to suggest that the same theologians who believed (1) also believed (2)—especially those who were writing before the December 25 date had already been established.
Seems... convenient. I'll leave it at that.
(6) Sol Invictus says hi.
Quote from: kphoger on December 15, 2023, 11:38:10 AM
By the way, it makes me happy that we're this far into the thread and nobody has nominated Dominick the Donkey. I can only presume this means everyone considers it to be an excellent Christmas song.
I've been looking for this song and cannot comprehend how it's not been mentioned yet. I can only assume that's because it has never been widely promoted outside of the Northeast (and specifically, New York/New Jersey/Connecticut), where it enjoys a large audience of people who are ethnically Italian.
As Christmas songs go, it is by far the worst. And in that I put it ahead of "Feliz Navidad" which is objectively terrible in every respect from its simplistic, overly-repetitive lyrics to its gaudy musical style (just because it's in Spanish is no excuse for making music that is a literal assault on atmospheric molecules).
My friend Amelia put together her list of the worst 5 Christmas songs years ago, and it's an epic takedown of many of the worst... though she didn't include "Dominic the Donkey" and I chide her about that every year. https://thefederalist.com/2016/12/14/5-christmas-songs-no-one-ever-sing/ (https://thefederalist.com/2016/12/14/5-christmas-songs-no-one-ever-sing/)
Quote from: 1995hoo on December 15, 2023, 06:23:00 PM
Quote from: kphoger on December 15, 2023, 03:07:44 PM
Quote from: GaryV on December 15, 2023, 02:20:31 PM
I could ask them, "Why don't you read the Bible in it's original Hebrew and Greek, ..."
Obvious answer: none of the originals have survived, so far as we know. :)
Quote from: 1995hoo on December 15, 2023, 02:23:22 PM
Quote from: kphoger on December 15, 2023, 01:44:07 PM
what is your preferred shorthand
Some of the Orthodox Churches
That's the equivalent of saying "the Roman Catholic Church", not shorthand for referring to the people therein.
I would quibble with that. Saying "the Russian Orthodox Church" or "the Finnish Orthodox Church" or whatever is the equivalent of saying "the Roman Catholic Church." Notwithstanding common American misusage, the "Catholic Church" and the "Roman Catholic Church" are not the same thing.
This is correct. The Episcopalians, Methodists, Lutherans, and several other churches all consider themselves part of the "Catholic Church tradition," but not members of the "Roman Catholic Church." The latter is defined by their ecclesiastical and hierarchical fealty to the Bishop of Rome, and the former by their generalized acceptance of foundational Western Christian ideology but their rejection of the Pope as the leader of the "One True Church" and rejection of many of what they consider "false teachings" by the Roman Catholic Church.
Quote from: formulanone on December 18, 2023, 04:01:58 PM
(6) Sol Invictus says hi.
It's a possibility, but one that is also not supported by historical documents that both (1) pre-date December 25 being on the calendar as Christmas and (2) are an authentic work by the person to whom it is ascribed.
I've studied this subject in quite a bit of depth, and the disappointing conclusion I've come to is that neither the conspiracy nor non-conspiracy theories for the date of Christmas can be definitively corroborated by the historical record. The documents most commonly used in support of both sides' arguments can be debunked as unreliable for the subject at hand. In fact, if you're really interested, I have a 22-page paper on the topic here on my work computer hard drive, that I wrote for fun about three years ago; the conclusions I drew over the course of that study are more nuanced and equivocal than most people seem to want, but sometimes the truth is just not as easy to pin down as we'd like it to be.
Quote from: Rothman on December 18, 2023, 03:35:02 PM
Jesus was born on April 6th.
There are decent arguments for a few different dates but, in my opinion, they all stretch things a bit too far.
One intriguing line of thought is to treat the first several verses of Revelation 12 as astronomical sightings; reading that chapter it in this way, interpreting the Christmas star in Matthew 2 as an astronomical even in which Jupiter and Regulus appeared to unite, and plotting it all against the ecliptic, can yield a potential birthdate of September 11, 3 BC—which just happened to be Rosh Hashanah.
"a woman clothed with the sun ... the moon under her feet ... the dragon stood in front of the woman who was about to give birth" (Rev 12)
"Where is the one who has been born king of the Jews? We saw his star when it rose ..." (Matt 2)
"the Lion of the tribe of Judah" (Rev 5)
(https://i.imgur.com/y8prRzj.png)
For what it's worth, this is edging into Religion territory, so let's call it quits on the whole "Jesus' birthday" thing. If anyone is interested in talking more about it with me, then just send me a PM.
Quote from: kphoger on December 18, 2023, 05:13:37 PM
For what it's worth, this is edging into Religion territory, so let's call it quits on the whole "Jesus' birthday" thing. If anyone is interested in talking more about it with me, then just send me a PM.
I can likewise offer some private commentary on why Christmas is celebrated in December if anyone is interested. Suffice to say, most of what you'll find if you google it is anachronistic and probably wrong; there is at least some Biblical reasoning behind it; and any mortal being who knew with any reasonable degree of certainty the date of Jesus of Nazareth's birth has been dead for nearly two millennia.
What's not up for debate is that most Christmas music is objectively terrible, though some songs are (much) worse than others.
Quote from: fhmiii on December 18, 2023, 04:30:00 PM
Quote from: 1995hoo on December 15, 2023, 06:23:00 PM
Quote from: kphoger on December 15, 2023, 03:07:44 PM
Quote from: GaryV on December 15, 2023, 02:20:31 PM
I could ask them, "Why don't you read the Bible in it's original Hebrew and Greek, ..."
Obvious answer: none of the originals have survived, so far as we know. :)
Quote from: 1995hoo on December 15, 2023, 02:23:22 PM
Quote from: kphoger on December 15, 2023, 01:44:07 PM
what is your preferred shorthand
Some of the Orthodox Churches
That's the equivalent of saying "the Roman Catholic Church", not shorthand for referring to the people therein.
I would quibble with that. Saying "the Russian Orthodox Church" or "the Finnish Orthodox Church" or whatever is the equivalent of saying "the Roman Catholic Church." Notwithstanding common American misusage, the "Catholic Church" and the "Roman Catholic Church" are not the same thing.
This is correct. The Episcopalians, Methodists, Lutherans, and several other churches all consider themselves part of the "Catholic Church tradition," but not members of the "Roman Catholic Church." The latter is defined by their ecclesiastical and hierarchical fealty to the Bishop of Rome, and the former by their generalized acceptance of foundational Western Christian ideology but their rejection of the Pope as the leader of the "One True Church" and rejection of many of what they consider "false teachings" by the Roman Catholic Church.
I further disagree with that description because what Protestants wrongly call the "Roman Catholic Church" is far broader than that. The Catholic Church includes various other groups who are in union with the Pope, including a bunch of Eastern Catholic Churches (the umbrella term "Byzantine Catholic" is one you see now and then, but there is also the Melkite Catholic Church, the Maronite Church, and various others). I once served as an altar server at a Ukrainian Catholic liturgy when a Ukrainian priest visited when I was a student at Duke. They asked me if I'd serve because I had been to Eastern Catholic liturgies before and thus had a better idea of what was involved than the other students did.
Many Americans are surprised to learn that the Eastern Catholic Churches do not necessarily require priestly celibacy (though they do require it for bishops).
We probably ought to drop this discussion, though, consistent with kphoger's point. It probably violates forum guidelines. I minored in religious studies in college, so I find this sort of thing really interesting, but I know not everyone does.
Has anyone picked whatever the thing is the alpacas start dancing to in the Amazon holiday ad.
BTW, it's not a Christmas song and thus doesn't fit the thread, but I rolled my eyes when we went to a Capitals game on December 9 and, during the pregame, the videoboard displayed "Happy Hanukkah" while the PA played a song about Hanukkah to the tune of "Shake It Off." (To be clear, it was the song that made me roll my eyes, not the message on the videoboard.)
Quote from: kphoger on December 18, 2023, 04:39:28 PM
Quote from: formulanone on December 18, 2023, 04:01:58 PM
(6) Sol Invictus says hi.
It's a possibility, but one that is also not supported by historical documents that both (1) pre-date December 25 being on the calendar as Christmas and (2) are an authentic work by the person to whom it is ascribed.
I've studied this subject in quite a bit of depth, and the disappointing conclusion I've come to is that neither the conspiracy nor non-conspiracy theories for the date of Christmas can be definitively corroborated by the historical record. The documents most commonly used in support of both sides' arguments can be debunked as unreliable for the subject at hand. In fact, if you're really interested, I have a 22-page paper on the topic here on my work computer hard drive, that I wrote for fun about three years ago; the conclusions I drew over the course of that study are more nuanced and equivocal than most people seem to want, but sometimes the truth is just not as easy to pin down as we'd like it to be.
Quote from: Rothman on December 18, 2023, 03:35:02 PM
Jesus was born on April 6th.
There are decent arguments for a few different dates but, in my opinion, they all stretch things a bit too far.
One intriguing line of thought is to treat the first several verses of Revelation 12 as astronomical sightings; reading that chapter it in this way, interpreting the Christmas star in Matthew 2 as an astronomical even in which Jupiter and Regulus appeared to unite, and plotting it all against the ecliptic, can yield a potential birthdate of September 11, 3 BC—which just happened to be Rosh Hashanah.
"a woman clothed with the sun ... the moon under her feet ... the dragon stood in front of the woman who was about to give birth" (Rev 12)
"Where is the one who has been born king of the Jews? We saw his star when it rose ..." (Matt 2)
"the Lion of the tribe of Judah" (Rev 5)
(https://i.imgur.com/y8prRzj.png)
No, Jesus was born on April 6th, per Talmadge's
Jesus the Christ.
Quote from: fhmiii on December 18, 2023, 05:32:14 PM
I can likewise offer some private commentary on why Christmas is celebrated in December if anyone is interested. Suffice to say, most of what you'll find if you google it is anachronistic and probably wrong ...
It surprised me—and quite disconcertingly so—just how many authors cite other authors' assertions as a basis for their argument, without doing the legwork of following the footnotes and tracking down the original source material to confirm it actually says what that other author claims it does. (Granted, it does tend to be written in Latin, and sometimes these things require conversions between Julian, Gregorian, and even Olympiad calendars, but the onus is on the author to verify this stuff before taking it as fact.) When you find that type of error in such reputable resources as the Encyclopædia Britannica and the Catholic Encyclopedia (which I did during the course of my research), it really makes you wonder just who can be trusted. And God help you if you're relying on Wikipedia or some guy's blog post to give you accurate information on this topic...
One of my favorite holiday songs is from a 2007 Virgin Mobile commercial. You might disagree and think it's the worst:
Quote from: epzik8 on December 16, 2023, 05:02:40 PM
Quote from: kphoger on December 15, 2023, 05:39:42 PM
Quote from: NWI_Irish96 on December 15, 2023, 04:55:18 PM
Quote from: Rothman on December 15, 2023, 04:05:15 PM
Dominick the Donkey is one of my favorite Christmas songs.
Never heard of that one.
You'll either love it or hate it. But, with any luck, even if you hate it, it'll grow on you.
I first heard it just two years ago and wondered why I went so long without hearing it.
It was recorded in 1960 and 2023 was the first Christmas season that I got to hear this nice song. My grandchildren got me to watch that above You Tube video two weeks ago as they started hearing it two years prior. Nothing like waiting 63 years to hear a recording for the first time— with this being the second time I've experienced this as I heard Art Carney's version of "'Twas the Night Before Christmas" from 1954 for the first time in 2017.
These two are not IMHO among the worst Christmas songs ever.
BTW, "Rockin' Around the Christmas Tree" by Brenda Lee is the #1 song in the country, according to the Billboard chart. This song set records with longest time to get to #1 from its first release (1958), oldest female artist to be #1 (2X), and oldest artist to be #1 (2X, as Brenda Lee was 78 the first week this song was #1 and 79 the second week this song was #1).
Thanks to this thread, I have heard "Dominick the Donkey" for the first time in my 62 years.
I hope to never hear it again.
"Believe" by Josh Groban.
The first year "Last Christmas" was released, it wasn't available in the United States. My sister and I listened to evening radio personalities that like to play slightly unusual pop and new wave songs, and one of them got an imported copy of "Last Christmas." Because it wasn't released here, the DJ told listeners ahead of time to get the tape recorder ready to record the song, which my sister did. He left a gap of silence before the song and let it fade out. All because the song wasn't otherwise available except for that play on that station. Now you can't get away from it.
I've been taking friends around to various Christmas activities this month, and I am bouncing around the three FM stations that play Christmas music. Only one time did the person in the passenger seat turn off the radio because of a song, and it was for George Michael's "Last Christmas." Later, the other two stations were both playing commercials and so we went back to the first station, in the middle of playing "Last Christmas" again, but by a different artist. Rotating three stations is a great way to hear the same song played again a few minutes after hearing it played on another station.
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on December 13, 2023, 01:06:06 PM
Last Christmas
If it's the Taylor Swift version.
The song I don't like is All I Want For Christmas Is You. Hey Santa by Wilson Phillips also annoys me.
Quote from: golden eagle on December 22, 2023, 11:36:04 PM
The song I don't like is All I Want For Christmas Is You. Hey Santa by Wilson Phillips also annoys me.
I assume you meant the Mariah Carey version on the former, because a completely different song by Vince Vance and the Valiants also has that name (although Kelly Clarkson can be grating at times). And as for the latter, the only two vocalists were Carnie and Wendy Wilson, so it's not exactly a Wilson Phillips song to begin with, like Hold On is.
Quote from: Henry on December 22, 2023, 11:42:13 PM
Quote from: golden eagle on December 22, 2023, 11:36:04 PM
The song I don't like is All I Want For Christmas Is You. Hey Santa by Wilson Phillips also annoys me.
I assume you meant the Mariah Carey version on the former, because a completely different song by Vince Vance and the Valiants also has that name (although Kelly Clarkson can be grating at times). And as for the latter, the only two vocalists were Carnie and Wendy Wilson, so it's not exactly a Wilson Phillips song to begin with, like Hold On is.
Yes, I do mean the Mariah Carey version. I wasn't aware Vince Vance had a song of the same title. I went over to YouTube to listen to a snippet...I'd rather listen to Mariah.
Quote from: golden eagle on December 23, 2023, 12:27:31 AM
Quote from: Henry on December 22, 2023, 11:42:13 PM
Quote from: golden eagle on December 22, 2023, 11:36:04 PM
The song I don't like is All I Want For Christmas Is You. Hey Santa by Wilson Phillips also annoys me.
I assume you meant the Mariah Carey version on the former, because a completely different song by Vince Vance and the Valiants also has that name (although Kelly Clarkson can be grating at times). And as for the latter, the only two vocalists were Carnie and Wendy Wilson, so it's not exactly a Wilson Phillips song to begin with, like Hold On is.
Yes, I do mean the Mariah Carey version. I wasn't aware Vince Vance had a song of the same title. I went over to YouTube to listen to a snippet...I'd rather listen to Mariah.
Don't worry, no one ever means any other version besides Mariah's...
Quote from: Rothman on December 23, 2023, 09:34:50 AM
Quote from: golden eagle on December 23, 2023, 12:27:31 AM
Quote from: Henry on December 22, 2023, 11:42:13 PM
Quote from: golden eagle on December 22, 2023, 11:36:04 PM
The song I don't like is All I Want For Christmas Is You. Hey Santa by Wilson Phillips also annoys me.
I assume you meant the Mariah Carey version on the former, because a completely different song by Vince Vance and the Valiants also has that name (although Kelly Clarkson can be grating at times). And as for the latter, the only two vocalists were Carnie and Wendy Wilson, so it's not exactly a Wilson Phillips song to begin with, like Hold On is.
Yes, I do mean the Mariah Carey version. I wasn't aware Vince Vance had a song of the same title. I went over to YouTube to listen to a snippet...I'd rather listen to Mariah.
Don't worry, no one ever means any other version besides Mariah's...
This is AARoads, where there's always some pedantic obscure fact to be found.
Quote from: kurumi on December 13, 2023, 12:48:44 PM
Write-ins welcome in the comments.
(I'm working on a song that might be more annoying than any of the above! Here are the lyrics:
U kno Santa got rizz, no cap
Skibidi woah oh oh oh
Tell me it's Christmas without telling me it's Christmas
🤣🤣🤣 😂😂 💀
... and the music is pitched-shifted up 2 octaves and optimized for playing over cell phone speaker)
I have a feeling if that gets into the hands of a 5 year old, they are gonna blast it 24/7
"Simply Having a Wonderful Christmastime" by McCartney is not a bad song if you take out the annoying synthesizers. I've heard covers of it that are actually pretty good.
Quote from: Road Hog on December 23, 2023, 01:23:22 PM
"Simply Having a Wonderful Christmastime" by McCartney is not a bad song if you take out the annoying synthesizers. I've heard covers of it that are actually pretty good.
I find it way too repetitive; 90% of the song is "Simply Having a Wonderful Christmastime" repeated over an over again, with maybe some additional verses sprinkled in. There's a lot of "novelty" Christmas songs (like "Holy Shit It's Christmas" or "I Saw Daddy Kissing Santa Claus") that I find objectively better, not because they're parody works, but because they actually have different words every once in a while.
Quote from: Hobart on December 23, 2023, 10:45:03 PM
Quote from: Road Hog on December 23, 2023, 01:23:22 PM
"Simply Having a Wonderful Christmastime" by McCartney is not a bad song if you take out the annoying synthesizers. I've heard covers of it that are actually pretty good.
I find it way too repetitive; 90% of the song is "Simply Having a Wonderful Christmastime" repeated over an over again, with maybe some additional verses sprinkled in. There's a lot of "novelty" Christmas songs (like "Holy Shit It's Christmas" or "I Saw Daddy Kissing Santa Claus") that I find objectively better, not because they're parody works, but because they actually have different words every once in a while.
"Simply Having a Wonderful Christmastime" is proof that the rumors of Paul's death in the 60s were true, at least creatively.
^ I can't comment much of the original, but I do like "Wonderful Deep Space Nine".
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4cCTgRax94o
This song seems to have lyrics straight out of ChatGPT: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0OtIF30n4ZY