Minnesota's new flag was revealed yesterday, and it is set to become official on May 11, 2024.
https://www.nytimes.com/2023/12/19/us/minnesota-state-flag-new-design.html (https://www.nytimes.com/2023/12/19/us/minnesota-state-flag-new-design.html)
Personally I'm really liking the new flag, one of the best U.S. state flags IMO. Hopefully it doesn't get shot down by the legislature. What are your thoughts?
New flag after May 11, 2024:
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/05/Flag_of_Minnesota_%282023_redesign%29.svg/1024px-Flag_of_Minnesota_%282023_redesign%29.svg.png)
Current flag (to be replaced):
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/b/b9/Flag_of_Minnesota.svg/1024px-Flag_of_Minnesota.svg.png)
I think the new flag is definitely better than the old one (both in terms of not being the default "state seal on a blue background", and of getting rid of the reference to genocide), but I would have preferred the variant that had a tricolor (blue/white/green) field.
I love this new flag. The state seal in the middle of the current flag is hideous and you can't tell what's going on
Quote from: MikeTheActuary on December 20, 2023, 10:56:43 AM
I think the new flag is definitely better than the old one (both in terms of not being the default "state seal on a blue background", and of getting rid of the reference to genocide), but I would have preferred the variant that had a tricolor (blue/white/green) field.
Here is the tricolour one for reference:
(https://chorus.stimg.co/25159003/1flagf1953.JPG?w=412&h=600&auto=compress&cs=tinysrgb&crop=faces&dpr=2.625)
I agree the tricolour is a bit better, but I'm happy with both versions.
I also found this comment about the final version from the designer on Reddit (url (https://www.reddit.com/r/vexillology/comments/18m6r0w/comment/ke47orh/)):
Quote from: u/FlubbyStarfishI sent a visual graph and a brief email detailing my preferred revisions to the committee. This particular flag was my 4th preferred revision, but when they got rid of the green it rose to my 2nd. I'm ecstatic they went with one that was even on my list, because during the last meeting they brought up some terrifying concepts of asymmetrical Minnesotas and getting rid of the white stripe so the background became a literal interpretation of a landscape. They shifted the star to the top so it looked like Pac-Man. So the fact that they went with my 4th overall favorite and 2nd blue-only favorite is a huuuuuge win in my mind. And there's even something about the simplicity of it that I think works really well. Chair Fitch's story about how it resembles the Mississippi River which both indigenous people and European settlers all moved to this land for, was a really beautiful concept that really elevated this version in my mind.
There's several other reasons why I love this version, but I'll stop there. I promise it's a flag that I'm certain will grow on Minnesotans after a while!
Quote from: BlueOutback7 on December 20, 2023, 11:06:25 AM
I love this new flag. The state seal in the middle of the current flag is hideous and you can't tell what's going on
That's still the state seal. Only the flag changed.
My opinion is this: I'd have like the tri-color variant, but this one is just fine. I like the other, 'twinkly' star better, though.
Quote from: kphoger on December 20, 2023, 11:13:46 AM
That's still the state seal. Only the flag changed.
They changed the seal as well (https://www.fox9.com/news/this-is-minnesotas-new-flag-and-seal).
Quote from: jlam on December 20, 2023, 12:35:33 PM
Quote from: kphoger on December 20, 2023, 11:13:46 AM
That's still the state seal. Only the flag changed.
They changed the seal as well (https://www.fox9.com/news/this-is-minnesotas-new-flag-and-seal).
The new seal looks great, and the new flag is definitely an improvement over "state seal on a colored background".
Quote from: WillWeaverRVA on December 20, 2023, 12:47:00 PM
Quote from: jlam on December 20, 2023, 12:35:33 PM
Quote from: kphoger on December 20, 2023, 11:13:46 AM
That's still the state seal. Only the flag changed.
They changed the seal as well (https://www.fox9.com/news/this-is-minnesotas-new-flag-and-seal).
The new seal looks great, and the new flag is definitely an improvement over "state seal on a colored background".
Agreed. I personally liked the tri-color flag, but both are still pretty great.
Quote from: jlam on December 20, 2023, 12:35:33 PM
Quote from: kphoger on December 20, 2023, 11:13:46 AM
That's still the state seal. Only the flag changed.
They changed the seal as well (https://www.fox9.com/news/this-is-minnesotas-new-flag-and-seal).
Whoa, crap! How did I miss that?
Quote from: 7/8 on December 20, 2023, 11:12:58 AM
Quote from: MikeTheActuary on December 20, 2023, 10:56:43 AM
I think the new flag is definitely better than the old one (both in terms of not being the default "state seal on a blue background", and of getting rid of the reference to genocide), but I would have preferred the variant that had a tricolor (blue/white/green) field.
Here is the tricolour one for reference:
(https://chorus.stimg.co/25159003/1flagf1953.JPG?w=412&h=600&auto=compress&cs=tinysrgb&crop=faces&dpr=2.625)
I agree the tricolour is a bit better, but I'm happy with both versions.
I'd go so far as to say the tri-color one is a
lot better. The one chosen is extremely plain.
Not only that, but the three colors look a bit like water, land and sky, which is sort of Minnesota-esque since you need all three in roughly equal proportions to describe the state (10000 lakes, forested countryside, and big skies) in a way that feels more applicable to Minnesota than any other state.
Quote from: webny99 on December 20, 2023, 12:54:56 PM
Not only that, but the three colors look a bit like water, land and sky, which is sort of Minnesota-esque since you need all three in roughly equal proportions to describe the state (10000 lakes, forested countryside, and big skies) in a way that feels more applicable to Minnesota than any other state.
See, I think it looks upside-down, because to me the colors look like (bottom) snow-covered ground, (center) green trees, (top) blue sky.
Quote from: webny99 on December 20, 2023, 12:54:56 PM
Quote from: 7/8 on December 20, 2023, 11:12:58 AM
Quote from: MikeTheActuary on December 20, 2023, 10:56:43 AM
I think the new flag is definitely better than the old one (both in terms of not being the default "state seal on a blue background", and of getting rid of the reference to genocide), but I would have preferred the variant that had a tricolor (blue/white/green) field.
Here is the tricolour one for reference:
(https://chorus.stimg.co/25159003/1flagf1953.JPG?w=412&h=600&auto=compress&cs=tinysrgb&crop=faces&dpr=2.625)
I agree the tricolour is a bit better, but I'm happy with both versions.
I'd go so far as to say the tri-color one is a lot better. The one chosen is extremely plain.
Not only that, but the three colors look a bit like water, land and sky, which is sort of Minnesota-esque since you need all three in roughly equal proportions to describe the state (10000 lakes, forested countryside, and big skies) in a way that feels more applicable to Minnesota than any other state.
If you had me pick, the tri-color one is significantly better than the selection. It's at least interesting, the flag chosen is just blue-on-blue. Plus, that light blue is going to bleach out in the sun (we have that blue too).
Quote from: kphoger on December 20, 2023, 01:02:27 PM
Quote from: webny99 on December 20, 2023, 12:54:56 PM
Not only that, but the three colors look a bit like water, land and sky, which is sort of Minnesota-esque since you need all three in roughly equal proportions to describe the state (10000 lakes, forested countryside, and big skies) in a way that feels more applicable to Minnesota than any other state.
See, I think it looks upside-down, because to me the colors look like (bottom) snow-covered ground, (center) green trees, (top) blue sky.
Also true, but either way it does seem to describe the state in a way that plain blue doesn't.
Addressing the comment in the OP, it's unlikely it will be rejected by the legislature since they authorized the commission to design a new flag and new seal, and a lot of the sentiment was "anything is better than the old ones".
And, just for those, like me, that didn't see it right away, the left hand portion is a stylized form of the shape of Minnesota.
Quote from: JayhawkCO on December 20, 2023, 01:31:40 PM
And, just for those, like me, that didn't see it right away, the left hand portion is a stylized form of the shape of Minnesota.
And the north-star-looking thing in the middle of said reverse chevron resembles St. Cloud, the capital of Minnesota.
Quote from: jlam on December 20, 2023, 01:38:21 PM
And the north-star-looking thing in the middle of said reverse chevron resembles St. Cloud, the capital of Minnesota.
At the risk of sticking my foot in my mouth again...
1. How does an eight-pointed star resemble Saint Cloud?
2. When was Saint Cloud the capital of Minnesota?
This was the flag I hoped would win. It made it to the final 10 before it stalled out. You can see it in the wild on some homes and businesses here.
(https://flagsforgood.com/cdn/shop/products/Minnesota-North-Star-Flag.jpg?v=1617850399)
Quote from: kphoger on December 20, 2023, 01:44:35 PM
2. When was Saint Cloud the capital of Minnesota?
11/4/22.
Quote from: kphoger on November 04, 2022, 08:45:18 PM
MN – moves to St Cloud, and the Northstar Line gets extended
Quote from: JayhawkCO on December 20, 2023, 01:54:17 PM
Quote from: kphoger on December 20, 2023, 01:44:35 PM
2. When was Saint Cloud the capital of Minnesota?
11/4/22.
Quote from: kphoger on November 04, 2022, 08:45:18 PM
MN – moves to St Cloud, and the Northstar Line gets extended
Oh wow, I forgot about that thread! :awesomeface:
Quote from: TheHighwayMan394 on December 20, 2023, 01:50:35 PM
This was the flag I hoped would win. It made it to the final 10 before it stalled out. You can see it in the wild on some homes and businesses here.
(https://flagsforgood.com/cdn/shop/products/Minnesota-North-Star-Flag.jpg?v=1617850399)
This is the one I liked too. The colors on most of the other flags seemed too muted and cold. This flag maintains simplicity while looking like an actual flag and not a bland corporate logo.
As for the flag that won, the star looks a lot better and the colors are brighter and much more inviting than the original tricolor version (although a color other than blue and white would be nice). Still, the diagonal lines aren't a good look in my opinion. I get that it's supposed to be the outline of the state, but I just don't see why that needs to be a part of the flag.
Terrible Reddit flag. Cute gimmicks in place of any meaningful symbolism. "Oh look, the indented bisection looks like the state, kind of".
Mississippi's new flag broke most of the "rules" and it's by far the best one that's come out this decade. This one looks just as much "flag by numbers" as the old seal-on-blue-field
Nate Silver on Twitter said, "Don't hate it but the vibe is "small island nation that you inevitably forget about when trying to list all countries in the world"." I kinda agree.
Quote from: TheHighwayMan394 on December 20, 2023, 01:50:35 PM
This was the flag I hoped would win.
Quote from: flan on December 20, 2023, 02:19:10 PM
This is the one I liked too.
I don't like wavy lines on any flag. Not even Kiribati, although that one should get some bonus points for trying.
Quote from: JayhawkCO on December 20, 2023, 02:30:13 PM
Nate Silver on Twitter said, "Don't hate it but the vibe is "small island nation that you inevitably forget about when trying to list all countries in the world"." I kinda agree.
And see, that's the vibe I get from the wavy-line one.
Quote from: JayhawkCO on December 20, 2023, 02:30:13 PM
Nate Silver on Twitter said, "Don't hate it but the vibe is "small island nation that you inevitably forget about when trying to list all countries in the world"." I kinda agree.
Let's be honest though. What state flags are particularly well known to outsiders besides Texas's and California's? That's why I find the people hilarious who are complaining and claiming they'll continue to only recognize the old flag just to be spiteful and contrarian. They didn't care about the old flag or think about it one day in their lives.
Quote from: TheHighwayMan394 on December 20, 2023, 03:28:57 PM
Quote from: JayhawkCO on December 20, 2023, 02:30:13 PM
Nate Silver on Twitter said, "Don't hate it but the vibe is "small island nation that you inevitably forget about when trying to list all countries in the world"." I kinda agree.
Let's be honest though. What state flags are particularly well known to outsiders besides Texas's and California's? That's why I find the people hilarious who are complaining and claiming they'll continue to only recognize the old flag just to be spiteful and contrarian. They didn't care about the old flag or think about it one day in their lives.
Alaska, Arizona, Colorado, New Mexico, and Maryland stand out as some that outsiders know well.
Quote from: TheHighwayMan394 on December 20, 2023, 03:28:57 PM
Quote from: JayhawkCO on December 20, 2023, 02:30:13 PM
Nate Silver on Twitter said, "Don't hate it but the vibe is "small island nation that you inevitably forget about when trying to list all countries in the world"." I kinda agree.
Let's be honest though. What state flags are particularly well known to outsiders besides Texas's and California's? That's why I find the people hilarious who are complaining and claiming they'll continue to only recognize the old flag just to be spiteful and contrarian. They didn't care about the old flag or think about it one day in their lives.
Let's be honest, though. What do state flags mean to
locals either? (Alaska, Texas, New Mexico excepted) The reason so many state flags are just boring seals on squares is that state flags are unimportant. Or am I missing something, and does Mississippi's new flag create a sense of state civic pride and unity among its residents that residents of New York do not have because of their seal-on-square flag?
Quote from: JayhawkCO on December 20, 2023, 03:31:07 PM
Quote from: TheHighwayMan394 on December 20, 2023, 03:28:57 PM
Let's be honest though. What state flags are particularly well known to outsiders besides Texas's and California's? That's why I find the people hilarious who are complaining and claiming they'll continue to only recognize the old flag just to be spiteful and contrarian. They didn't care about the old flag or think about it one day in their lives.
Alaska, Arizona, Colorado, New Mexico, and Maryland stand out as some that outsiders know well.
Can't forget all the states with their name on their flag.
Quote from: jlam on December 20, 2023, 04:05:02 PM
Can't forget all the states with their name on their flag.
And can you list which states those are, off the top of your head?
Quote from: jlam on December 20, 2023, 04:05:02 PM
Quote from: JayhawkCO on December 20, 2023, 03:31:07 PM
Quote from: TheHighwayMan394 on December 20, 2023, 03:28:57 PM
Let's be honest though. What state flags are particularly well known to outsiders besides Texas's and California's? That's why I find the people hilarious who are complaining and claiming they'll continue to only recognize the old flag just to be spiteful and contrarian. They didn't care about the old flag or think about it one day in their lives.
Alaska, Arizona, Colorado, New Mexico, and Maryland stand out as some that outsiders know well.
Can't forget all the states with their name on their flag.
California is the only one I think of offhand.
Quote from: kphoger on December 20, 2023, 04:06:58 PM
Quote from: jlam on December 20, 2023, 04:05:02 PM
Can't forget all the states with their name on their flag.
And can you list which states those are, off the top of your head?
The question was whether one can recognize the state given the flag, not the flag given the state. I can think of AR, CA, DE, FL, ID, IL, IN, IA, KS, KY, ME, MT, NE, NV, NH, ND, OK, OR, SD, VT, VA, WA, and WY off the top of my head.
If you're looking for information given on a flag, New Mexico had a treasure trove:
(https://i.postimg.cc/K8twgyVv/Flag-of-New-Mexico-1912-1925.png) (https://postimages.org/)
Quote from: jlam on December 20, 2023, 04:05:02 PM
Quote from: JayhawkCO on December 20, 2023, 03:31:07 PM
Quote from: TheHighwayMan394 on December 20, 2023, 03:28:57 PM
Let's be honest though. What state flags are particularly well known to outsiders besides Texas's and California's? That's why I find the people hilarious who are complaining and claiming they'll continue to only recognize the old flag just to be spiteful and contrarian. They didn't care about the old flag or think about it one day in their lives.
Alaska, Arizona, Colorado, New Mexico, and Maryland stand out as some that outsiders know well.
Can't forget all the states with their name on their flag.
Quote from: jlam on December 20, 2023, 04:20:10 PM
The question was whether one can recognize the state given the flag, not the flag given the state.
Oh, I guess I can see that. Maybe I was just reading |TheHighwayMan394| wrong. I interpreted the bolded part as meaning outsiders are already familiar with the design of the flag—not that they could tell what state a flag is from just by looking at it.
Quote from: kphoger on December 20, 2023, 04:30:02 PM
Quote from: jlam on December 20, 2023, 04:05:02 PM
Quote from: JayhawkCO on December 20, 2023, 03:31:07 PM
Quote from: TheHighwayMan394 on December 20, 2023, 03:28:57 PM
Let's be honest though. What state flags are particularly well known to outsiders besides Texas's and California's? That's why I find the people hilarious who are complaining and claiming they'll continue to only recognize the old flag just to be spiteful and contrarian. They didn't care about the old flag or think about it one day in their lives.
Alaska, Arizona, Colorado, New Mexico, and Maryland stand out as some that outsiders know well.
Can't forget all the states with their name on their flag.
Quote from: jlam on December 20, 2023, 04:20:10 PM
The question was whether one can recognize the state given the flag, not the flag given the state.
Oh, I guess I can see that. Maybe I was just reading |TheHighwayMan394| wrong. I interpreted the bolded part as meaning outsiders are already familiar with the design of the flag—not that they could tell what state a flag is from just by looking at it.
I took "recognize" in the original quote to be "agreeing which flag is official", not "remembering what something looked like".
I don't really like the new flag; the colors appear too muted and the whole thing too geometric-paint-by-numbers. Though that might just be my personal preference.
But it's far and away better than the old flag.
The new flag is GORGEOUS compared to the old one, but I was hoping the tricolor would come with it!
Tight. Subtle.
The new flag is definitely an improvement over the old one! While I personally would have preferred the North Star Flag, I won't be deciding on which design Minnesotans should adopt (just as long as it's not a seal on a bedsheet!)
Quote from: boilerup25 on December 20, 2023, 06:33:38 PM
The new flag is definitely an improvement over the old one! While I personally would have preferred the North Star Flag, I won't be deciding on which design Minnesotans should adopt (just as long as it's not a seal on a bedsheet!)
I massively agree!
The inverted chevron was my favorite of the final 3. The North-Star-over-field flag wouldn't fly very well (literally). Sure, it looks good on a screen, but not as much on a pole in front of the capitol.
The new flag is an improvement, but not Utah-level. Bring Back the Tricolor.
Quote from: jlam on December 20, 2023, 06:41:08 PM
The inverted chevron was my favorite of the final 3. The North-Star-over-field flag wouldn't fly very well (literally). Sure, it looks good on a screen, but not as much on a pole in front of the capitol.
The new flag is an improvement, but not Utah-level. Bring Back the Tricolor.
Another point I massively agree with!
Quote from: boilerup25 on December 20, 2023, 06:33:38 PM
(just as long as it's not a seal on a bedsheet!)
This video helped me appreciate the "seal on a bedsheet" design a lot more. (I also highly recommend his videos in general.)
Quote from: kphoger on December 20, 2023, 03:35:41 PM
Quote from: TheHighwayMan394 on December 20, 2023, 03:28:57 PM
Quote from: JayhawkCO on December 20, 2023, 02:30:13 PM
Nate Silver on Twitter said, "Don't hate it but the vibe is "small island nation that you inevitably forget about when trying to list all countries in the world"." I kinda agree.
Let's be honest though. What state flags are particularly well known to outsiders besides Texas's and California's? That's why I find the people hilarious who are complaining and claiming they'll continue to only recognize the old flag just to be spiteful and contrarian. They didn't care about the old flag or think about it one day in their lives.
Let's be honest, though. What do state flags mean to locals either? (Alaska, Texas, New Mexico excepted) The reason so many state flags are just boring seals on squares is that state flags are unimportant. Or am I missing something, and does Mississippi's new flag create a sense of state civic pride and unity among its residents that residents of New York do not have because of their seal-on-square flag?
What a flag means to locals kind of depends on how good the flag is, honestly.
Look at the Texas flag, for instance. It's fairly simple and doesn't look like any of the other state flags (it sort of looks like Chile's flag, but that's beside the point). You could draw a Texas flag from memory in a few seconds. That means lots of Texans display the state flag proudly, work its design into the designs of other things, etc. I'm about to go to the grocery store and I will see a few different products there that include the Texas flag to advertise that's where they were (at least nominally) made. The state welcome sign is just a drawing of the flag. If I want to instantly convey to the viewer "this thing is from/about Texas" I can throw a Lone Star flag on there and people will know instantly that it is Texas-related.
Nobody does that with the Kansas flag because the Kansas flag kind of sucks. It's the state seal—okay, that represents the state government—but it doesn't really work in the way the Texas flag does. If you wanted to convey "This thing is from Kansas", you'd probably put a sunflower on it instead. The image of a sunflower represents Kansas the same way Texas's flag represents Texas. You see something similar with city flags; the flag of Las Vegas is pretty terrible, so people use some road sign (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Welcome_to_Fabulous_Las_Vegas_sign) to symbolize the city instead.
Which is fine, I guess. But it shows that everyone wants a symbol to represent their home. If the flag doesn't do an adequate job, people will find something else—when then raises the question of why even bother to have a flag at all if it doesn't do a good job as a symbol?
Despite NY's flag being a seal on a bedsheet, I think Liberty stomping on the British Crown is a wonderful representation of the state.
Excelsior, indeed.
CGP Grey had some commentary on this. I think my opinion matches his on this...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lFwwo0W5Ugg
I prefer this proposal (yes, this was actually posted on the submissions website):
(https://i.imgur.com/RiKRysy.jpg)
Quote from: LilianaUwU on December 20, 2023, 09:23:35 PM
I prefer this proposal (yes, this was actually posted on the submissions website):
(https://i.imgur.com/RiKRysy.jpg)
Amazing! It accurately depicts Minnesota's vast agricultural industry as well as its curvy borders in its east. Its vertical proportion makes it destined to be hung on a horizontal pole, rather than a vertical one. The simplicity of the flag makes it recognizable from a distance and memorable. Why Minnesota didn't use this design baffles me.
Quote from: Scott5114 on December 20, 2023, 08:25:28 PM
Quote from: kphoger on December 20, 2023, 03:35:41 PM
Quote from: TheHighwayMan394 on December 20, 2023, 03:28:57 PM
Quote from: JayhawkCO on December 20, 2023, 02:30:13 PM
Nate Silver on Twitter said, "Don't hate it but the vibe is "small island nation that you inevitably forget about when trying to list all countries in the world"." I kinda agree.
Let's be honest though. What state flags are particularly well known to outsiders besides Texas's and California's? That's why I find the people hilarious who are complaining and claiming they'll continue to only recognize the old flag just to be spiteful and contrarian. They didn't care about the old flag or think about it one day in their lives.
Let's be honest, though. What do state flags mean to locals either? (Alaska, Texas, New Mexico excepted) The reason so many state flags are just boring seals on squares is that state flags are unimportant. Or am I missing something, and does Mississippi's new flag create a sense of state civic pride and unity among its residents that residents of New York do not have because of their seal-on-square flag?
What a flag means to locals kind of depends on how good the flag is, honestly.
Look at the Texas flag, for instance.
Similar things can be said for the flag of Chicago, which flies practically everywhere, in no small part because it has a good design.
That said, to my eye, the flag of Chile more than "sort of looks like" the flag of Texas:
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/78/Flag_of_Chile.svg/1024px-Flag_of_Chile.svg.png) (https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/f7/Flag_of_Texas.svg)
From what I understand, this was done (yea, like the Minnesota state legislature doesn't have any other more pressing issues to worry about) because the original state seal was deemed to be too 'un PC'.
:rolleyes:
Mike
From what I understand, this was done because Minnesotans didn't like the flag. Why they didn't like it is beside the point—they have a right to ask to have it changed if they don't feel it represents them.
Quote from: mgk920 on December 21, 2023, 12:58:04 AM
From what I understand, this was done (yea, like the Minnesota state legislature doesn't have any other more pressing issues to worry about) because the original state seal was deemed to be too 'un PC'.
:rolleyes:
Mike
This is true, but it doesn't mean that there weren't multiple reasons people could want a new flag. The originality and improvements to the design are more interesting to discuss than this.
Quote from: mgk920 on December 21, 2023, 12:58:04 AM
From what I understand, this was done (yea, like the Minnesota state legislature doesn't have any other more pressing issues to worry about) because the original state seal was deemed to be too 'un PC'.
:rolleyes:
Mike
You might be displeased then to learn that your state's neighbor to the south is also looking to redesign its flag.
Quote from: TXtoNJ on December 20, 2023, 02:26:27 PM
Terrible Reddit flag. Cute gimmicks in place of any meaningful symbolism. "Oh look, the indented bisection looks like the state, kind of".
Mississippi's new flag broke most of the "rules" and it's by far the best one that's come out this decade. This one looks just as much "flag by numbers" as the old seal-on-blue-field
I don't hate it as much, but I do think it's a little bland. It suffered death by committee. It relies too much on modern design sensibilities in my opinion, especially with the colors. Give it the star on the original flag it was modified from and change the colors to something more flag-like and I think I'd grow to like it. Regardless though it's a massive improvement over the seal slapped onto a field.
That's also the problem I have with Utah's new flag. By a design standpoint it's good but from a flag standpoint I don't really like it. It relies too much on modern design/flat design and looks like something off of a webpage like a logo or something. Flags should be timeless. I feel like in 30 years time it's gonna look really dated. Take Milwaukee's 1975 redesign proposal for example:
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/ee/MilwaukeeFlag_1975winner.png/320px-MilwaukeeFlag_1975winner.png)
In 1975 it probably looked great to people, and it does meet the flag design rules mostly. But today it looks terrible. Dated and garish. The same is gonna happen with all these Reddit vexillology vector-looking flags in 30-40 years I feel.
The other thing I hate is when people follow the flag design "rules" religiously. They're not rules, they're guidelines, and the flag bible they get the rules from even says so itself. You can depart from them if well-executed and done with meaning. California's is excellent even though it uses text because of how iconic and historic it is. "CALIFORNIA REPUBLIC" looks back to not only its history but the cultural status of California today.
In terms of culture, the economy, and progress it's been the trendsetter for the rest of the country and is thus somewhat independent from the rest of America in that regard, symbolized by "REPUBLIC" on the flag. It very often goes its own way as a state.
I also think a little detail is fine so long as the overall basic shape of the symbols used isn't compromised. The flower on Mississippi's flag is good, and while I'm not a fan of the text, it's included in such a way as to be unintrusive, blending in with the existing pattern of stars. Since the flag was required to have text, that was the best way of doing it.
Here's an example of the problem with following the rules religiously. If anyone saw that CGP Grey video, the way he redesigned South Carolina's flag and the rationale for it drove me absolutely insane. He claims that the palmetto is mistaken for being a palm tree when he says everyone thinks it's a palm tree (BECAUSE IT IS), then says they should replace it with this ugly angel oak design that just looks...terrible, because apparently it's a better symbol for South Carolina. Nobody really pays much attention to the angel oak in terms of symbols, and it has no special meaning for South Carolina other than like one famous tree in Charleston.
And it completely ignores the deep historical meaning of the palmetto tree for the state. It represents how they blocked cannon fire during the Revolutionary War, in addition to the state's most prized asset, its coast. Then he said it's too detailed. No it's not? Even if you do have little hatches here and there, the overall shape of the palm is simple enough for a child to draw. It departs from the rules, yeah, but it does so gracefully.
I also don't like the rigid, simplistic look of the new flags in MN or UT, but, for some reason, I do like the modernistic Newfoundland and Labrador flag.
There's no accounting for taste. Literally.
Quote from: index on December 21, 2023, 03:13:36 AM
I also think a little detail is fine so long as the overall basic shape of the symbols used isn't compromised.
I agree with this in general. Detail is fine if you're doing the seal-on-a-bedsheet thing—which is fine if the seal is what really matters. But if you're not going in that direction, then avoid detail: it should be big swaths of color, with
maybe one large symbol. The symbol on the Algerian flag is good, because it's big and simple. Wyoming's is bad, because they should have gone with
either the state seal
or the bison, but not both.
Quote from: kphoger on December 21, 2023, 11:29:37 AM
Quote from: index on December 21, 2023, 03:13:36 AM
I also think a little detail is fine so long as the overall basic shape of the symbols used isn't compromised.
I agree with this in general. Detail is fine if you're doing the seal-on-a-bedsheet thing—which is fine if the seal is what really matters. But if you're not going in that direction, then avoid detail: it should be big swaths of color, with maybe one large symbol. The symbol on the Algerian flag is good, because it's big and simple. Wyoming's is bad, because they should have gone with either the state seal or the bison, but not both.
What was your feeling on the old Libyan flag?
Quote from: JayhawkCO on December 21, 2023, 11:45:07 AM
Quote from: kphoger on December 21, 2023, 11:29:37 AM
What was your feeling on the old Libyan flag?
A little too far in my opinion—but still better than the Austrian battle flag, which is a white eagle on a white background with a white border.
Quote from: LilianaUwU on December 20, 2023, 09:23:35 PM
I prefer this proposal (yes, this was actually posted on the submissions website):
(https://i.imgur.com/RiKRysy.jpg)
The dog one was great as well.
I love that some people make their flag the memeiest thing ever, and the internet always votes for it (if they are in that area changing their flag) :bigass:
Today we have someone on at work who served on the flag/seal redesign commission. A lot of the thought of removing the stripes had to do with the notion that every state has land, but as Minnesotans we are largely defined by water in ways other people may not so much be.
Quote from: TheHighwayMan394 on December 21, 2023, 05:16:20 PM
Today we have someone on at work who served on the flag/seal redesign commission. A lot of the thought of removing the stripes had to do with the notion that every state has land, but as Minnesotans we are largely defined by water in ways other people may not so much be.
To be fair... at least from my experience down here in Kansas... you're also defined by snow to an extent others are not. :biggrin:
After some careful thought I've came up with a design that has a little bit of what everyone likes. This should make everyone happy:
(https://i.imgur.com/l2alwY8.png)
the new MN flag if it was good
(https://i.imgur.com/0dRGZ77.jpg)
Quote from: index on December 21, 2023, 10:58:14 PM
After some careful thought I've came up with a design that has a little bit of what everyone likes. This should make everyone happy:
(https://i.imgur.com/l2alwY8.png)
It's the parentheses that make it.
Quote from: index on December 21, 2023, 10:58:14 PM
After some careful thought I've came up with a design that has a little bit of what everyone likes. This should make everyone happy:
(https://i.imgur.com/l2alwY8.png)
The dog's eyes and mouth will haunt my dreams! :clap:
Quote from: LilianaUwU on December 21, 2023, 11:49:28 PM
the new MN flag if it was good
(https://i.imgur.com/0dRGZ77.jpg)
This is excellent, I can see this being a popular flag! Did you make this?
Quote from: Scott5114 on December 20, 2023, 08:25:28 PM
Quote from: kphoger on December 20, 2023, 03:35:41 PM
Let's be honest, though. What do state flags mean to locals either? (Alaska, Texas, New Mexico excepted)
What a flag means to locals kind of depends on how good the flag is, honestly.
Agreed, and I don't think it's coincidence that the three states kphoger chose as exceptions have great flags. States with great flags feature it everywhere (ex: MD, SC, CO, the latter even uses it on their route markers).
Quote from: TXtoNJ on December 20, 2023, 02:26:27 PM
Terrible Reddit flag. Cute gimmicks in place of any meaningful symbolism. "Oh look, the indented bisection looks like the state, kind of".
Mississippi's new flag broke most of the "rules" and it's by far the best one that's come out this decade. This one looks just as much "flag by numbers" as the old seal-on-blue-field
I respect where you're coming from, not everyone's going to be a fan of simplistic flags. But you have to admit, at least the new Minnesota flag will be easy to recognize, the old one is hard to identify in the wind.
Quote from: index on December 21, 2023, 03:13:36 AM
I don't hate it as much, but I do think it's a little bland. It suffered death by committee. It relies too much on modern design sensibilities in my opinion, especially with the colors. Give it the star on the original flag it was modified from and change the colors to something more flag-like and I think I'd grow to like it. Regardless though it's a massive improvement over the seal slapped onto a field.
I personally like the colours, the use of two shades of blue is pretty unique and looks nice IMO.
Quote from: index on December 21, 2023, 03:13:36 AM
Take Milwaukee's 1975 redesign proposal for example:
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/ee/MilwaukeeFlag_1975winner.png/320px-MilwaukeeFlag_1975winner.png)
In 1975 it probably looked great to people, and it does meet the flag design rules mostly. But today it looks terrible. Dated and garish. The same is gonna happen with all these Reddit vexillology vector-looking flags in 30-40 years I feel.
It's hard for me to image that flag ever looking good :-D. I also find it hard to believe the "Reddit" flags will look "garish" in the future. Bland or boring maybe, but not garish.
Quote from: index on December 21, 2023, 03:13:36 AM
The other thing I hate is when people follow the flag design "rules" religiously. They're not rules, they're guidelines, and the flag bible they get the rules from even says so itself. You can depart from them if well-executed and done with meaning. California's is excellent even though it uses text because of how iconic and historic it is. "CALIFORNIA REPUBLIC" looks back to not only its history but the cultural status of California today.
In terms of culture, the economy, and progress it's been the trendsetter for the rest of the country and is thus somewhat independent from the rest of America in that regard, symbolized by "REPUBLIC" on the flag. It very often goes its own way as a state.
Agreed, people can obsess over the guidelines too much. I'm usually not a fan of text, but I'll admit California's flag pulls it off, and the flag has a nice balance of being a bit more complex than many of the "Reddit" flags, but not excessively so like the state seals on blue bedsheets.
Another flag that doesn't strictly follow the guidelines that I like is the Qing dynasty flag (1889-1992)*:
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/b/b6/Flag_of_China_%281889%E2%80%931912%29.svg/512px-Flag_of_China_%281889%E2%80%931912%29.svg.png)
It visually has a lot of detail/complexity, but the concept is simple: a dragon, a red circle, and a field of yellow. It's distinctive and easy to recognize from afar, both crucial for a good flag.
* the triangular version is also cool (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flag_of_the_Qing_dynasty#/media/File:Flag_of_China_(1862%E2%80%931889).svg).
Quote from: 7/8 on December 22, 2023, 11:25:21 AM
States with great flags feature it everywhere (ex: MD,
Maryland's flag looks like it was made from horse jockeys' discarded silks.
Quote from: 7/8 on December 22, 2023, 10:58:29 AM
Quote from: LilianaUwU on December 21, 2023, 11:49:28 PM
the new MN flag if it was good
(https://i.imgur.com/0dRGZ77.jpg)
This is excellent, I can see this being a popular flag! Did you make this?
I blatantly stole it off Reddit, but I can see why you'd think I made it.
Quote from: kphoger on December 21, 2023, 11:29:37 AM
Quote from: index on December 21, 2023, 03:13:36 AM
I also think a little detail is fine so long as the overall basic shape of the symbols used isn't compromised.
I agree with this in general. Detail is fine if you're doing the seal-on-a-bedsheet thing—which is fine if the seal is what really matters. But if you're not going in that direction, then avoid detail: it should be big swaths of color, with maybe one large symbol. The symbol on the Algerian flag is good, because it's big and simple. Wyoming's is bad, because they should have gone with either the state seal or the bison, but not both.
To this point, if Oklahoma removed the text from its flag, and then bisected it using red (or added a red fess with white borders), it would be a top 5 flag even though it has a complicated symbol in the middle.
Then, there's this, the flag of Venice:
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/0f/Flag_of_Venice.svg/1280px-Flag_of_Venice.svg.png)
Quote from: CtrlAltDel on December 22, 2023, 07:04:03 PM
Then, there's this, the flag of Venice:
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/0f/Flag_of_Venice.svg/1280px-Flag_of_Venice.svg.png)
Venice's flag is both horrendous and beautiful at the same time.
(https://scontent-bos5-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t39.30808-6/412247795_984233423163724_4942280423596724595_n.jpg?_nc_cat=105&ccb=1-7&_nc_sid=3635dc&_nc_ohc=ib2VEJqlXiEAX-VhprQ&_nc_ht=scontent-bos5-1.xx&oh=00_AfA8giLB1oQNKm3x6YclAwbRxj6d8HOjY8-ONNE6ZiFriA&oe=658D0A8C)
From https://www.facebook.com/BeirutRestaurantWSP/posts/984121366508263
Quote from: 7/8 on December 22, 2023, 11:25:21 AM
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/b/b6/Flag_of_China_%281889%E2%80%931912%29.svg/512px-Flag_of_China_%281889%E2%80%931912%29.svg.png)
That dragon is playing kickball! Awesome.
U actually like how some state flags look. They should be identifiable right away. And some of them are just the state seal on a background.
To me, the good flags are: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_flags_of_the_United_States
Alaska, Arizona, California, Colorado, Hawaii, Illinois, Indiana, Iowa, Louisiana, Maryland, Mississippi, Missouri, Nevada, New Mexico, New York, Ohio, Oklahoma, Rhode Island, South Carolina, Tennessee, Texas, Washington, Wyoming.
I do like the new designs for Utah and Minnesota that go into effect in 2024.
Historical and proposed flags that I wish were still around because they were a good design (not because of what they represent):
Georgia 1879-1902
Kansas 1916-1917
Maine 1901-1909
Rhode Island 1882-1897
West Virginia 1905-1907
Even on the county and city level, there are some good ones.
Cook County, Illinois
Dallas County, Texas
Montgomery County, Maryland
Palm Beach County, Florida
Albquerque, NM
Anchorage, AK
Chicago, IL
Cincinnati, OH
Indianapolis, IN
Kansas City, MO
Miami, FL
New Orleans, LA
Orlando, FL
Phoenix, AZ
Pittsburgh, PA
Portland, OR
St Louis, MO
The flag of Miami appears to just be the flag of India with a seal pasted on. Not a good flag.
Here is some more perspective from JJ McCullough. His main point seems to be this: in the name of eradicating humdrum same-looking flags, but through dogmatic adherence to an arbitrary set of good-flag-making rules, we are instead ending up with differently same-looking flags—and not only is that not actually a real improvement, but in fact disallowing bizarre and quirky flag designs effectively funnels the chosen designs into being stale and un-unique.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kRtUiORUh7c
Quote from: kphoger on December 21, 2023, 12:03:39 PM
Quote from: JayhawkCO on December 21, 2023, 11:45:07 AM
Quote from: kphoger on December 21, 2023, 11:29:37 AM
What was your feeling on the old Libyan flag?
A little too far in my opinion—but still better than the Austrian battle flag, which is a white eagle on a white background with a white border.
Joke, right? Not seeing an all-white flag on https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Austrian_flags, and there are many eagles but they're pretty much all black.
Quote from: kkt on January 07, 2024, 07:38:45 PM
Quote from: kphoger on December 21, 2023, 12:03:39 PM
still better than the Austrian battle flag, which is a white eagle on a white background with a white border.
Joke, right? Not seeing an all-white flag on https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Austrian_flags, and there are many eagles but they're pretty much all black.
Right.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_flag#Contemporary_use
Quote from: kphoger on January 08, 2024, 10:41:18 AM
Quote from: kkt on January 07, 2024, 07:38:45 PM
Quote from: kphoger on December 21, 2023, 12:03:39 PM
still better than the Austrian battle flag, which is a white eagle on a white background with a white border.
Joke, right? Not seeing an all-white flag on https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Austrian_flags, and there are many eagles but they're pretty much all black.
Right.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_flag#Contemporary_use
Yes, although note that all white flags have had uses other than parley or surrender in the past: old regime France.
Quote from: Scott5114 on December 28, 2023, 06:45:20 PM
The flag of Miami appears to just be the flag of India with a seal pasted on. Not a good flag.
No lie, I used to do double-takes when I'd see the City of Miami flag. The colors are shared with University of Miami, and New Delhi is nearly at the same latitude, but culturally there's close to zero overlap between the two. We grow oranges, and there's lots of green...and just went with that.
Didn't Liechtenstein and Haiti have the same flag for many years? There's only so much choice with two-bar and tri-bar/color designs, so it's entirely possible to be unaware of your choice for years before the advent of encyclopedia salesmen.