Noticed that I-35 in Oklahoma has a wide median, mostly 90' or more, from south of Purcell to Marietta near the Texas border. But more interesting, all but 1 of the curves (at the sb foot of the climb over the Arbuckle 'mountains') are designed with a very gentle standard curve, about a 2 mile radius. A radius that happens to be wide enough to support 150 mph for passenger trains. The south ends lines up well with for a new track coming off the freeway southbound to join the BNSF line to cross into Texas. Similarly for the north end for a new track to cut over to the BNSF south of Purcell to then follow into the OKC metro.
Is that just a coincidence? I found some examples elsewhere in OK, but plenty of exceptions, and a quick search didn't find similarly large curves in Texas. I can think of plenty of other reasons for wide medians and gentle curves, but a little surprised at the standardization on the particular 76 mile stretch.
Although I would love to see it, after a really rough week, I sincerely appreciate the chuckle you gave me at insinuating Oklahoma with plan for practical long range, passenger rail lines, let alone HSR.
Now to its credit, it is upgrading, and it's extending the heartland flyer. But it can't even connect its two biggest cities with anything better than a 4+ hour, 45 MPH train line proposal which predictably went nowhere.
At some point I do believe there will be real high-speed rail between Oklahoma City and Dallas at least. When that will happen, I have no idea. But I highly doubt it's even on the radar for the state. Right now they just wanna upgrade the heartland flyer line.
Just a coincidence. It was built with a wide median because land was cheap in the 60s.
Oklahoma will probably be the last state in the union to get high speed rail. The sorts of people who ride trains aren't the sort of people that vote for Oklahoma politicians, or the sort of people who choose to live in Oklahoma, for that matter.
None of the Interstate highways in this country have medians that can accommodate true high speed rail lines for long distances. The proposed Brightline HSR corridor from Las Vegas to the West edge of the LA metro is supposed to be built in the median of I-15. But that's only going to work on long straight away paths. They'll have to do something else where the highway curves.
While it may seem like I-35 in Oklahoma has pretty gradual turns the road is very damned wiggly when it comes to high speed rail standards. And that's just looking at the road from overhead imagery. There are all kinds of little grade changes, like the hilly area around Davis. A true high speed rail line going through that area would need to be built on a lot of new terrain path and probably even need some tunnels.
Then there's the larger question of how practical a DFW-OKC HSR line would be. What good would it do for passengers? The DFW region has a fair amount of mass transit service. But it won't take you everywhere in the metroplex. OKC has far less mass transit service. Both metros are very spread out and very automobile-oriented. Passengers would be stuck at the train station having to rent a car or call an Uber. It still seems easier to just hop in the car and drive down I-35.
I have also noticed the very high design standards of I-35 in Oklahoma, especially compared to the original I-35 in Texas.
I always assumed it was because that section of I-35 was built in the late 1960s or early 1970s, which was in the latter part of the construction of the original interstate system, most of which was done 1957 to 1975. For example, the 1965 map linked below showing interstate construction status shows no activity on this section of I-35 in Oklahoma, while the adjacent section in Texas is complete.
Standards for interstate highway construction improved substantially in the 1960s, and Oklahoma, by proceeding more slowly to build interstates, benefited from the higher standards. Higher standards included wider medians and high-quality geometrics.
Texas, in contrast, was ahead of most states and built many interstates to the low standards that were in place before the interstate system was designated, or were built using the original (lower quality) standards of the late 1950s. Of course many sections in Texas were also built in the late 1960s and later, and the higher standards on these sections is clearly visible. Texas has been plagued by interstate highways built to original low standards, and is still working to remedy their shortcomings, for example I-35 between Denton and the Oklahoma state line.
As for high speed rail, I seriously doubt there was any consideration of its inclusion in the design for I-35 in Oklahoma.
http://dallasfreeways.com/dfwfreeways/old-highway-maps/1965_esso_us_texas_med.jpg (http://dallasfreeways.com/dfwfreeways/old-highway-maps/1965_esso_us_texas_med.jpg)
As others have stated, it's likely just a coincidence that Oklahoma has wide medians and that HSR requires it. The curve radii to maintain speed on HSR lines is measured in miles, however, so it's likely that any bends in the interstate would not be able to accommodate trains traveling over 160 MPH, although articulating trainsets do reduce this a fair amount. The future of HSR in this area relies entirely on the Dallas to Houston line getting built and then expanded from there, so until shovels start flying down south, I don't think Oklahoma will get 'on board' so to speak until they can realize the economic benefits of it.
Quote from: I-35 on January 29, 2024, 10:47:47 AM
The future of HSR in this area relies entirely on the Dallas to Houston line getting built and then expanded from there, so until shovels start flying down south, I don't think Oklahoma will get 'on board' so to speak until they can realize the economic benefits of it.
I'd go a step further and say that really wouldn't be worthwhile for the state to invest in HSR until the entire Texas triangle line is completed.
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on January 29, 2024, 05:09:39 PM
Quote from: I-35 on January 29, 2024, 10:47:47 AM
The future of HSR in this area relies entirely on the Dallas to Houston line getting built and then expanded from there, so until shovels start flying down south, I don't think Oklahoma will get 'on board' so to speak until they can realize the economic benefits of it.
I'd go a step further and say that really wouldn't be worthwhile for the state to invest in HSR until the entire Texas triangle line is completed.
I do think HSR from Dallas to Houston is quite feasible. You're talking downtown to downtown in 90 minutes as opposed to driving out to the airport, finding parking, clearing security, flying, waiting for your baggage, and finding a downtown shuttle — all of which could take 3 hours total.
OKC is closer to Dallas than Houston, but I don't know if the ridership is there yet.
Quote from: Road Hog on January 29, 2024, 05:21:09 PM
OKC is closer to Dallas than Houston, but I don't know if the ridership is there yet.
I don't think OKC–Dallas passenger rail traffic will
ever be there to justify the cost of building the infrastructure.
The downtown-to-downtown calculus (or destination to destination) comes into play for me for driving as well. For example, I've both driven and flown from DFW to New Orleans. Driving takes about seven hours with maybe one pit stop halfway (Nachitoches usually). Flying can be between 5-6 hours from the time I leave the house to the point I'm kicked up working a sudoku and an Irish Car Bomb at Monahan's just off Bourbon.
Quote from: kphoger on January 29, 2024, 05:22:57 PM
Quote from: Road Hog on January 29, 2024, 05:21:09 PM
OKC is closer to Dallas than Houston, but I don't know if the ridership is there yet.
I don't think OKC–Dallas passenger rail traffic will ever be there to justify the cost of building the infrastructure.
It all depends on how Oklahoma grows. There's actually some pretty big development starting to happen in Oklahoma and some pretty impressive growth in central Oklahoma. it's not at Austin or Dallas growth levels yet, but the growth level have been increasing and there are bigger and more exciting developments that get announced every year. if OKC ever hit anything close to Austin level growth, I can see a pretty solid case for standard high-speed rail within the next 15 to 20 years.
But every time I've been on the heartland flyer line it's actually had pretty decent ridership. It's not packed by any means. But still more than I would've thought.
Yes, as far as I can tell the OKC and Tulsa metros are growing, as well as Bryan County (Durant), which if you squint hard enough is commutable to the north Dallas suburbs.
Quote from: Road HogI do think HSR from Dallas to Houston is quite feasible. You're talking downtown to downtown in 90 minutes as opposed to driving out to the airport, finding parking, clearing security, flying, waiting for your baggage, and finding a downtown shuttle — all of which could take 3 hours total.
That's assuming they would be able to build such a line
downtown to downtown.
One reason why the HSR project in California turned into such a silly boondoogle is the fact the HSR line will only reach the outskirts of the LA and Bay Area metros when fully completed. Passengers will be forced to use other modes of travel to reach the city cores. The outcome probably won't be any different in Texas. Train passengers will be traveling from suburb to suburb,
or even exhurb to exhurb.
It's already very difficult to build ordinary
slower-speed commuter rail lines in the US. Look at the price tag for the 2nd Avenue Subway project in Manhattan. Building a HSR tunnel under a city like Dallas might cost more on its own than building out the rest of Texas' I-69 projects and then some.
Oklahoma most certainly is not going to build any High Speed Rail any where if they can not even finish U.S. 377 / S.H. 99 and even takes for ever to expand their toll roads.
As for rail projects it would be much better for the Knox Henderson Station to be opened, Texas Central Railway to be constructed, and extensions of other existing yet very incomplete projects.
To add to the main reasons why the median is large, it is not unlike the freeway segment north of McAlester. It was very easy to build corridors with minimal Environmental and Financial and Political and Social obstacles.
If there was ever going to be a time to build rail lines in the large median, it would be decades ago.
Several urban Interstates have local rail lines in the medians because they are straighter for the most part, and where there are curves, they are far more gradual and smoother than what the rural sections would demand. So while in theory HSR could run along I-35 between OKC and DFW, it's just unfeasible due to the many other factors that have been alluded to, such as the hilly terrain (which shocked even me, because I always thought OK was flat!). In any case, there should be a workaround on the whole thing, and if there's not going to be any HSR in the median, at least reserve some of it for future widening projects. The ROW is already there, so all that needs to be done is to build towards the middle, instead of away from it.
Perhaps it is best, considering that the new Bridges to span Red River in future includes plans to " convert an old one to a frontage road bridge " is to simply add Frontage Roads from Texas to The Red River to Oklahoma. And it would also be very useful for Ardmore, which is not that much different from Decatur. Ardmore in this case has insufficient tight clover ramps that makes it better to drive in the inside lanes in an attempt to avoid the traffic entering and exiting.
If I remember correctly, the only " Flat " areas in Oklahoma is in The Panhandle, and that was many years ago thus I am probably remembering it wrong. Much of Oklahoma has very small mountains, some of which have Beautiful Wind Turbines.
Quote from: HenrySeveral urban Interstates have local rail lines in the medians because they are straighter for the most part, and where there are curves, they are far more gradual and smoother than what the rural sections would demand.
Light rail/subway lines can be built in the median of an urban Interstate (or above/below it) because the trains never reach high speeds and have frequent stops. Regional commuter rail lines can run at higher speeds, but they don't often run at speeds faster than typical freeway traffic. Somewhat frequent stops hold down those top speeds.
Not only does a true high speed rail line require far more gradual curve and grade geometry than any super highway, the trains need considerably more distance between stops in order to achieve true high speeds and sustain them for any significant amount of time/distance. Even Amtrak's Acela line from DC to Boston can't be put in the median of a typical Interstate; its top speeds peak at around 150mph in limited places.
Quote from: In_CorrectIf I remember correctly, the only " Flat " areas in Oklahoma is in The Panhandle, and that was many years ago thus I am probably remembering it wrong. Much of Oklahoma has very small mountains, some of which have Beautiful Wind Turbines.
It's
mostly flat out in Oklahoma's Panhandle. The far Western edge has the highest point in the state, Black Mesa. That actually spans the OK/NM border. Then there is the caprock drop-off North of Boise City. IMHO, US-287 needs to be four-lane divided through there for safety sake regardless if I-27 is ever extended through there.
^^^^
It's amazing the change of scenery if you start at Black Mesa, and then head to the south east corner of the state. Oklahoma actually has alligators.
Quote from: In_Correct on February 01, 2024, 11:20:26 PM
Perhaps it is best, considering that the new Bridges to span Red River in future includes plans to " convert an old one to a frontage road bridge " is to simply add Frontage Roads from Texas to The Red River to Oklahoma. And it would also be very useful for Ardmore, which is not that much different from Decatur. Ardmore in this case has insufficient tight clover ramps that makes it better to drive in the inside lanes in an attempt to avoid the traffic entering and exiting.
If I remember correctly, the only " Flat " areas in Oklahoma is in The Panhandle, and that was many years ago thus I am probably remembering it wrong. Much of Oklahoma has very small mountains, some of which have Beautiful Wind Turbines.
If I'm not mistaken they are going to restore the old US77 connection across the river as the southbound bridge was originally US77 before they built out I35 at the river. The service road will link up to serve thackerville. Not really any point on having dual service roads linking to exit 1 for the Casino.
A service road bridge across the Red River next to new I-35 bridges could be convenient for people using the Chickasaw Travel Stop and Border Casino. The main entrance for WinStar is by Exit 3. The WinStar property is already enormous, but if they keep expanding it (and more stuff continues to get built nearby) they'll need to build continuous frontage roads from the Red River to Exit 3 (Rogers Rd) as well as add more lanes to surrounding roads. A SPUI would be good at Exit 3, but the WinStar water tower that was strangely built within the exit property would be a major obstacle.
You're gassing yourself up if you think the reactionaries that run the state will ever let that happen. Too many car dealers would be sad.
Quote from: Henry on February 01, 2024, 10:44:27 PM
I always thought OK was flat!
That's because you're from Illinois. Most states seem rather flat, compared to Illinois.
Quote from: motorola870 on February 02, 2024, 08:16:44 AM
Quote from: In_Correct on February 01, 2024, 11:20:26 PM
Perhaps it is best, considering that the new Bridges to span Red River in future includes plans to " convert an old one to a frontage road bridge " is to simply add Frontage Roads from Texas to The Red River to Oklahoma. And it would also be very useful for Ardmore, which is not that much different from Decatur. Ardmore in this case has insufficient tight clover ramps that makes it better to drive in the inside lanes in an attempt to avoid the traffic entering and exiting.
If I remember correctly, the only " Flat " areas in Oklahoma is in The Panhandle, and that was many years ago thus I am probably remembering it wrong. Much of Oklahoma has very small mountains, some of which have Beautiful Wind Turbines.
If I'm not mistaken they are going to restore the old US77 connection across the river as the southbound bridge was originally US77 before they built out I35 at the river. The service road will link up to serve Thackerville. Not really any point on having dual service roads linking to exit 1 for the Casino.
Sort of. The original I35 bridges were built in the early 60's. You are right that they used the US77 bridge for the southbound lanes but that bridge was replaced back in the 80s, then again not too long ago.
They need a 3rd bridge to act as a relief route when there is an accident at or near the existing bridges.
Quote from: Bobby5280 on February 02, 2024, 10:40:48 AM
A service road bridge across the Red River next to new I-35 bridges could be convenient for people using the Chickasaw Travel Stop and Border Casino. The main entrance for WinStar is by Exit 3. The WinStar property is already enormous, but if they keep expanding it (and more stuff continues to get built nearby) they'll need to build continuous frontage roads from the Red River to Exit 3 (Rogers Rd) as well as add more lanes to surrounding roads. A SPUI would be good at Exit 3, but the WinStar water tower that was strangely built within the exit property would be a major obstacle.
Amtrak could add a station to the current Heartland Flyer line a mile from Winstar and have the casino run shuttles from the NB and SB trains - I'm not sure why this is never discussed. I get that the casino makes money on bus shuttles, but the line is right there.
I believe that water tower also serves the welcome center just north of Exit 3. The Chickasaws paid for the welcome center, so I guess they figured if they put the water tower there they could run lines to both WinStar and the welcome center more cheaply.
I feel like the old way of accessing WinStar, getting off at Exit 1 and seeing the casino slowly come into view as you go up the frontage road, was a lot cooler than the approach from the north you get at Exit 3.
Quote from: I-35Amtrak could add a station to the current Heartland Flyer line a mile from Winstar and have the casino run shuttles from the NB and SB trains - I'm not sure why this is never discussed. I get that the casino makes money on bus shuttles, but the line is right there.
If they want a train station serving WinStar the Chickasaw tribe might have to put up some money for that too. I think Amtrak might be hesitant to build a station there since the one in Gainesville is just a short drive to the South. Even the casino people might not see much value in it. The Heartland Flyer runs just one train down from OKC to Fort Worth and back up to OKC per day. Casino operators might not want customers worrying about getting to a train station on time.
The Heartland Flyer is worth riding at least once. But it's an all-day thing, especially when riding to Fort Worth from OKC.
Quote from: Scott5114I feel like the old way of accessing WinStar, getting off at Exit 1 and seeing the casino slowly come into view as you go up the frontage road, was a lot cooler than the approach from the north you get at Exit 3.
At least the portion of I-35 in front of the casino is now improved to a 3x3 configuration.
If I were Amtrak, I'd be hesitant to build a new station just to serve a business that could conceivably shut down in a few years.
Quote from: kphoger on February 07, 2024, 01:21:11 PM
If I were Amtrak, I'd be hesitant to build a new station just to serve a business that could conceivably shut down in a few years.
It could almost be as little as a commuter train stop in urban areas. A State Police weigh station building would be more than enough.
In many places, you already have to use the train steps to board adn disembark.
Quote from: bwana39 on February 07, 2024, 05:30:30 PM
In many places, you already have to use the train steps to board adn disembark.
No longer ADA-compliant for new stations, except in certain situations, and then only if some other accommodation is made for disabled passengers.
Quote from: Code of Federal Regulations
Title 49 — Transportation
Subtitle A — Office of the Secretary of Transportation
Part 37 — Transportation Services for Individuals with Disabilities (ADA)
§ 37.42 — Service in an Integrated Setting to Passengers at Intercity, Commuter, and High-Speed Rail Station Platforms Constructed or Altered After February 1, 2012.
(b) For new or altered stations serving commuter, intercity, or high-speed rail lines or systems, in which no track passing through the station and adjacent to platforms is shared with existing freight rail operations, the performance standard of paragraph (a) of this section must be met by providing level-entry boarding to all accessible cars in each train that serves the station.
(c) For new or altered stations serving commuter, intercity, or high-speed rail lines or systems, in which track passing through the station and adjacent to platforms is shared with existing freight rail operations, the railroad operator may comply with the performance standard of paragraph (a) by use of one or more of the following means:
(1) Level-entry boarding;
(2) Car-borne lifts;
(3) Bridge plates, ramps or other appropriate devices;
(4) Mini-high platforms, with multiple mini-high platforms or multiple train stops, as needed, to permit access to all accessible cars available at that station; or
(5) Station-based lifts;
Quote from: U.S. Department of Transportation, Office of the Secretary of Transportation
General Counsel
49 CFR §§37.41-43; 37.9(a), (d);
49 CFR Part 37, App. A (810.5.3)
December 14, 2011
... section 37.42 requires a railroad that alters a station platform and does not provide level boarding to ensure that passengers with disabilities can board any accessible car of a train available to other passengers at that station, using means including car-borne lifts, station-based lifts, or mini-high platforms.
Quote from: kphoger on February 07, 2024, 01:21:11 PM
If I were Amtrak, I'd be hesitant to build a new station just to serve a business that could conceivably shut down in a few years.
The Chickasaw Nation has never closed a casino in the 40 years they've operated them.
Didn't they study a stop at WinStar not that long ago?
Quote from: Scott5114 on February 07, 2024, 11:27:47 PM
Quote from: kphoger on February 07, 2024, 01:21:11 PM
If I were Amtrak, I'd be hesitant to build a new station just to serve a business that could conceivably shut down in a few years.
The Chickasaw Nation has never closed a casino in the 40 years they've operated them.
That may be so, but it's a lot easier to close a business than an entire town.
The only way any casinos are going to shut down in Oklahoma via politics. And chances are very slim on that, despite how conservative the state's "lawmakers" can be. Things have gone the opposite direction on a couple issues, medical marijuana and the changes in liquor laws (no more 3.2 near beer BS). Even if our state's politicians wanted to ban casinos they would hit a brick wall with the sovereign status of tribal jurisdictions. The federal government wouldn't let them get anywhere. On top of that, they would risk pissing off a bunch of their own constituents. A bunch of white voters sure like spending a lot of time and money in those casinos.
Quote from: Bobby5280 on February 08, 2024, 10:21:18 AM
The only way any casinos are going to shut down in Oklahoma via politics. And chances are very slim on that, despite how conservative the state's "lawmakers" can be. Things have gone the opposite direction on a couple issues, medical marijuana and the changes in liquor laws (no more 3.2 near beer BS). Even if our state's politicians wanted to ban casinos they would hit a brick wall with the sovereign status of tribal jurisdictions. The federal government wouldn't let them get anywhere. On top of that, they would risk pissing off a bunch of their own constituents. A bunch of white voters sure like spending a lot of time and money in those casinos.
If mark Cuban and his friends have their way, it wouldn't close the casinos, but it would be like Tunica County MS.
As much as it would suck, Oklahoma's time leeching off of Texas's growth from casinos is limited. Oklahoma has had so many opportunities like full Vegas like commercialization of casinos and legalization of recreational weed and Psilocybin products the state could have reaped in money from Texas residents but chooses to chase after other issues that will not benefit it. The state gets what it deserves honestly. So many chances wasted.
Quote from: Scott5114 on February 07, 2024, 11:27:47 PM
Quote from: kphoger on February 07, 2024, 01:21:11 PM
If I were Amtrak, I'd be hesitant to build a new station just to serve a business that could conceivably shut down in a few years.
The Chickasaw Nation has never closed a casino in the 40 years they've operated them.
I agree Scott I do not see the "world's largest" casino closing anytime soon.
Quote from: bwana39 on February 08, 2024, 05:04:20 PM
Quote from: Bobby5280 on February 08, 2024, 10:21:18 AM
The only way any casinos are going to shut down in Oklahoma via politics. And chances are very slim on that, despite how conservative the state's "lawmakers" can be. Things have gone the opposite direction on a couple issues, medical marijuana and the changes in liquor laws (no more 3.2 near beer BS). Even if our state's politicians wanted to ban casinos they would hit a brick wall with the sovereign status of tribal jurisdictions. The federal government wouldn't let them get anywhere. On top of that, they would risk pissing off a bunch of their own constituents. A bunch of white voters sure like spending a lot of time and money in those casinos.
If mark Cuban and his friends have their way, it wouldn't close the casinos, but it would be like Tunica County MS.
Obviously billionaires have a plan, but if they roll out a limited number of licensed casinos in Texas, it's conceivable that the DFW area gets one or two. If that's the case, these casinos would have to be gargantuan to serve the captive market. And even with that, I just don't see them staying 'nice' for very long because two casinos do not go far for a market with eight million people an average 30-minute drive away. And I'm not sure they have major impacts on the ones in place at Winstar and Choctaw, because those are as easily reachable from the northern suburbs as a new one located in Fort Worth or near Irving, for instance. It would mark the death knell for Shreveport/Bossier, though.
Also a good time to point out that the Chickasaws already own Lone Star Park, so that's a shoe-in for a new casino should TX legalize gambling.
Not to mention that hardcore gamblers aren't rational actors so they don't treat casinos as fungible. If a gambler perceives (whether or not it is actually true) that a Texas casino doesn't pay out as well as WinStar, they will happily drive past the new casino to go to the one they're used to going to. And if they have enough of a history at WinStar to get comps it may make more sense to keep patronizing it than to try and build up a play history from scratch at a new place.
Quote from: Scott5114 on February 15, 2024, 01:43:18 PM
Not to mention that hardcore gamblers aren't rational actors so they don't treat casinos as fungible. If a gambler perceives (whether or not it is actually true) that a Texas casino doesn't pay out as well as WinStar, they will happily drive past the new casino to go to the one they're used to going to. And if they have enough of a history at WinStar to get comps it may make more sense to keep patronizing it than to try and build up a play history from scratch at a new place.
Agreed, I hadn't considered that aspect. A selfish part of me wants the tribal ones to remain robust because they have such an oversized economic impact on relatively lightly populated areas. A casino in Dallas, while popular, doesn't really increase the economic base of Dallas by anything significant. But it's a different story when they are in Love County or Durant.
Quote from: armadillo speedbump on January 29, 2024, 12:28:34 AM
Noticed that I-35 in Oklahoma has a wide median, mostly 90' or more, from south of Purcell to Marietta near the Texas border. But more interesting, all but 1 of the curves (at the sb foot of the climb over the Arbuckle 'mountains') are designed with a very gentle standard curve, about a 2 mile radius. A radius that happens to be wide enough to support 150 mph for passenger trains. The south ends lines up well with for a new track coming off the freeway southbound to join the BNSF line to cross into Texas. Similarly for the north end for a new track to cut over to the BNSF south of Purcell to then follow into the OKC metro.
Is that just a coincidence? I found some examples elsewhere in OK, but plenty of exceptions, and a quick search didn't find similarly large curves in Texas. I can think of plenty of other reasons for wide medians and gentle curves, but a little surprised at the standardization on the particular 76 mile stretch.
The biggest issue with this is the Arbuckle mountains. They are potentially going to have do work cutting out rock or stablelizing the cut throughs just to 3 lane the interstate to combat congestion from the traffic going from Dallas to Oklahoma City. The cost for a tunnel for rail in the mountains would be cost prohibitive.
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on February 07, 2024, 11:37:17 PM
Didn't they study a stop at WinStar not that long ago?
How would they do it though? The tracks are on the west side of US77 at exit 1. Would it be cost effective to cut through part of Thackerville with a spur that crosses the interstate to serve Winstar? Or just bus Casino patrons from a stop in Thackerville to the Casino via the exit 1 underpass?
Quote from: rte66man on February 04, 2024, 02:43:46 PM
Quote from: motorola870 on February 02, 2024, 08:16:44 AM
Quote from: In_Correct on February 01, 2024, 11:20:26 PM
Perhaps it is best, considering that the new Bridges to span Red River in future includes plans to " convert an old one to a frontage road bridge " is to simply add Frontage Roads from Texas to The Red River to Oklahoma. And it would also be very useful for Ardmore, which is not that much different from Decatur. Ardmore in this case has insufficient tight clover ramps that makes it better to drive in the inside lanes in an attempt to avoid the traffic entering and exiting.
If I remember correctly, the only " Flat " areas in Oklahoma is in The Panhandle, and that was many years ago thus I am probably remembering it wrong. Much of Oklahoma has very small mountains, some of which have Beautiful Wind Turbines.
If I'm not mistaken they are going to restore the old US77 connection across the river as the southbound bridge was originally US77 before they built out I35 at the river. The service road will link up to serve Thackerville. Not really any point on having dual service roads linking to exit 1 for the Casino.
Sort of. The original I35 bridges were built in the early 60's. You are right that they used the US77 bridge for the southbound lanes but that bridge was replaced back in the 80s, then again not too long ago.
They need a 3rd bridge to act as a relief route when there is an accident at or near the existing bridges.
Looking at the service road underpass at the state line on the texas side. They redecked the bridge and widened it to allow for a shoulder. The original bridge piers are still there just with an extension and metal underdecking supports.
Quote from: motorola870 on February 16, 2024, 02:17:45 AM
Quote from: armadillo speedbump on January 29, 2024, 12:28:34 AM
Noticed that I-35 in Oklahoma has a wide median, mostly 90' or more, from south of Purcell to Marietta near the Texas border. But more interesting, all but 1 of the curves (at the sb foot of the climb over the Arbuckle 'mountains') are designed with a very gentle standard curve, about a 2 mile radius. A radius that happens to be wide enough to support 150 mph for passenger trains. The south ends lines up well with for a new track coming off the freeway southbound to join the BNSF line to cross into Texas. Similarly for the north end for a new track to cut over to the BNSF south of Purcell to then follow into the OKC metro.
Is that just a coincidence? I found some examples elsewhere in OK, but plenty of exceptions, and a quick search didn't find similarly large curves in Texas. I can think of plenty of other reasons for wide medians and gentle curves, but a little surprised at the standardization on the particular 76 mile stretch.
The biggest issue with this is the Arbuckle mountains. They are potentially going to have do work cutting out rock or stabilizing the cut throughs just to 3 lane the interstate to combat congestion from the traffic going from Dallas to Oklahoma City. The cost for a tunnel for rail in the mountains would be cost prohibitive.
It's already 3 lanes SB because of the climbing lane. There is more than enough room to add the 3rd NB lane in the median.
Hmmm, I wasn't making a prediction of HSR or assessing feasibility, just asking about the original intent of the freeway designers. So thanks to those who actually answered that question.
To clear up several misconceptions:
Yes, HSR in the median is technically feasible, even over the Arbuckle ridge. HSR can handle 4% grades and the crossing would likely not require more than 3%. These are lightweight passenger trains, even heavy, heavy freight trains can handle 2% and even up to near 3%. Tunnel not required. It's not a matter of technical limitations, but financial ones. Cost effectiveness for population/distance/other factors.
Yes HSR can go downtown to downtown. The claim that CA HSR won't is false. Both ends will use the sensible approach of tying into existing commuter rail tracks, from San Jose to San Francisco and Burbank to LA to Anaheim, with shared rail ROW on separate tracks Gilroy-San Jose.
Yes, HSR can use freeway medians when appropriate, and not only on pure straight stretches. Brightline Orlando to Tampa will use the interstate median most of the way, designed for 150 mph. The state just executed the next step in provisioning the median to Brightline. Perhaps our board Expert On Everything should call and let them know that they don't know what they are doing (despite Brightline already building and now operating a higher speed rail line up to 125 mph). Similar for Brightline West, which will be built mostly in the median of I-15. Curvature matters, but trains do have brakes and acceleration. Case by case. The typical Euro approach is conventional tracks and speeds in/out of city centers, sometimes in choke points, and highest speeds on rural sections. Sometimes expensive urban tunneling or elevated tracks where necessary. Sometimes those are later upgrades, often decades later.
A station for the current once per day each way OKC-Fort Worth Amtrak train to serve a nearby rural OK casino is unlikely to happen, and probably shouldn't. Once per day, frequently late (to very late), slow, and relatively short distances. Too much hassle and uncertainty compared to driving. A few drunks might take it to detox on the way home, but it is unlikely to make any financial sense for the casino. For most of DFW the Ft. Worth station is in the wrong direction and the only other alternative station is Gainesville. If you drive to board at Gainesville you've already driven most of the way to the casino. That might be different if it were a corridor with at least a half dozen trains a day each way and more DFW area stations. But that's not happening any time soon, for many reasons.
For the usual political hot takes of "Oklahoma would never build HSR because they vote the wrong way"...the state authorized and paid for a high speed rail study between OKC and Tulsa. 2 decades ago.
https://www.odot.org/recovery/hs_rail/fra-final-app/prelim/cost-study.pdf (https://www.odot.org/recovery/hs_rail/fra-final-app/prelim/cost-study.pdf)
It studied using the tollway median or using the existing rail line. The tollway median was fastest but very expensive, the existing railroad too curvy and thus when straightened resulted in many takings of land and also being too expensive. As a result the 2002 report was shelved by both an R governor and a D-D legislature.
More passenger rail studies under a D-governor and R-R legislature in 2009, Tulsa-OKC-Texas:
https://www.odot.org/recovery/hs_rail/final-fra.htm (https://www.odot.org/recovery/hs_rail/final-fra.htm)
Under their current all R makeup they have continued to look at lower cost rail options like extending the Fort Worth-OKC Amtrak to Kansas (to connect east to Chicago and west to California). That project is a dog (wee hours transfer required to trains that can often run many hours late) but it and other rail projects have bipartisan interest. It all comes back to there are few circumstances where passenger rail has the demand, location, urban density, and/or enough transit connections to be feasible. I'm sorry that unicorns don't exist, but they don't. We mostly don't have European or Asian density and development patterns. Maybe someday in some places, and a few places get close now.
And while Big Red Motors may have illegally 'subsidized' OU football, "Big Auto Dealers" didn't stop the studies. LOL at such Roger Rabbit conspiracy nonsense.
Same for Texas. The R controlled legislature called for studies of various corridors over the years. The shot down Trans-Texas Corridor was designed to include HSR set asides in the triangle. Here's the study from 2016 for Oklahoma-DFW-Austin-SA-Laredo/Corpus/McAllen:
https://railroads.dot.gov/environment/environmental-reviews/texas-oklahoma-passenger-rail-study-corridor-south-texas-oklahoma (https://railroads.dot.gov/environment/environmental-reviews/texas-oklahoma-passenger-rail-study-corridor-south-texas-oklahoma)
One of the potential fatal flaws of the Texas Central proposal for Dallas-Houston is the use of Japanese rolling stock that is not allowed to use the same tracks as conventional railroad equipment in the US. Both a matter of crash safety standards and possibly width issues (though that is more a station platform issue). The proposal was funded by the Japanese, possibly as a loss leader to get the foot in the door and monopolize a future Texas Triangle system. So agreeing to a different, compatible trainset is about the last thing they'd agree to do (unless they can modify their equipment sufficiently). Unfortunately for them that also greatly increases the cost of reaching downtown Dallas and west loop 610 in Houston. The miles of elevated track above the existing freight tracks piles up costs, quick, probably overwhelming their wise decision to use electric utility corridors for most of the intercity portion. I'll be shocked if it ever gets built in its current design.
Doesn't help that the geniuses on the Dallas city council, after the project had already almost folded last year from likely funding issues, decided that the line should be underground for the last bit into downtown Dallas. The most expensive build option of all.
Jesus Christ dude you're talking out of your ass. Have you ever ridden the thruway bus from OKC to Newton? The Heartland Flyer? Do you live in Oklahoma and understand the mentality of the leaders in the state?
Because I can honestly say yes to all of the above. The Heartland Flyer always had decent ridership. It's rarely packed but always has several dozen people I've ridden it. Same with connecting to SW Chief via the thruway bus and waiting in Newton.
Regarding an OKC to Tulsa connection studies mean nothing. They're often the result of political pandering or a cute little look into what could be but that doesn't mean there's any real push to get it done anytime soon. ODOT also built the I-244 bridge with HSR tracks to be built on it in the future. That also means nothing.
I-35 in southern Oklahoma wasn't built to have HSR tracks and it isn't happening anytime soon and frankly I'd be surprised if it ever does. We'll probably be traveling through wormholes before HSR is built here.
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on February 21, 2024, 12:14:22 AM
Jesus Christ dude you're talking out of your ass.
A native Texan, I've worked for 2 different Class I railroads, going back to 1998, and participated in some (minor) passenger rail research projects. Along with non-rail projects. So yeah, good point, what would I possibly know about railroads, the transportation funding processes, or politics?
Sorry for bursting any bubbles.
Quote from: armadillo speedbump on February 21, 2024, 12:32:12 AM
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on February 21, 2024, 12:14:22 AM
Jesus Christ dude you're talking out of your ass.
A native Texan, I've worked for 2 different Class I railroads, going back to 1998, and participated in some (minor) passenger rail research projects. Along with non-rail projects. So yeah, good point, what would I possibly know about railroads, the transportation funding processes, or politics?
Sorry for bursting any bubbles.
I have no clue what any of that has to do with your knowledge of Oklahoma and its relationship with high-speed rail currently. But really I'm trying to figure out what your relevant knowledge of the current situation in the state actually is. The answer appears to be not much since you're asking questions on this thread and you're making statements that just aren't very true like your assumption on the usage of its current passenger rails.
Oklahoma in 2024 is a much different place than it was in 2004. What the Legislature did when Keating or Henry were governor isn't really relevant to the politics in the modern day.
Quote from: motorola870 on February 16, 2024, 02:24:32 AM
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on February 07, 2024, 11:37:17 PM
Didn't they study a stop at WinStar not that long ago?
How would they do it though? The tracks are on the west side of US77 at exit 1. Would it be cost effective to cut through part of Thackerville with a spur that crosses the interstate to serve Winstar? Or just bus Casino patrons from a stop in Thackerville to the Casino via the exit 1 underpass?
I assume Winstar would just run a shuttle or two over for scheduled stops, and it would be done via the county road at MM3 that is essentially the 'front' of the casino now. Don't ever expect casino patrons to walk anywhere until they are inside the gaming area.
Quote from: I-35 on February 22, 2024, 12:10:50 PM
Quote from: motorola870 on February 16, 2024, 02:24:32 AM
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on February 07, 2024, 11:37:17 PM
Didn't they study a stop at WinStar not that long ago?
How would they do it though? The tracks are on the west side of US77 at exit 1. Would it be cost effective to cut through part of Thackerville with a spur that crosses the interstate to serve Winstar? Or just bus Casino patrons from a stop in Thackerville to the Casino via the exit 1 underpass?
I assume Winstar would just run a shuttle or two over for scheduled stops, and it would be done via the county road at MM3 that is essentially the 'front' of the casino now. Don't ever expect casino patrons to walk anywhere until they are inside the gaming area.
Even then, your mileage may vary. I had a patron that got turned around and needed help finding the exit. As I brought him there he became very angry at how long of a walk it was to the exit. The exit that he had walked that far from in the first place...
Quote from: Scott5114 on February 22, 2024, 03:37:30 PM
Quote from: I-35 on February 22, 2024, 12:10:50 PM
Quote from: motorola870 on February 16, 2024, 02:24:32 AM
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on February 07, 2024, 11:37:17 PM
Didn't they study a stop at WinStar not that long ago?
How would they do it though? The tracks are on the west side of US77 at exit 1. Would it be cost effective to cut through part of Thackerville with a spur that crosses the interstate to serve Winstar? Or just bus Casino patrons from a stop in Thackerville to the Casino via the exit 1 underpass?
I assume Winstar would just run a shuttle or two over for scheduled stops, and it would be done via the county road at MM3 that is essentially the 'front' of the casino now. Don't ever expect casino patrons to walk anywhere until they are inside the gaming area.
Even then, your mileage may vary. I had a patron that got turned around and needed help finding the exit. As I brought him there he became very angry at how long of a walk it was to the exit. The exit that he had walked that far from in the first place...
Haha, not surprised. I think it's over a half mile from one end to the other? Thank goodness the guy didn't have a hotel room at the far end.
Quote from: Scott5114 on February 21, 2024, 03:44:43 PM
Oklahoma in 2024 is a much different place than it was in 2004. What the Legislature did when Keating or Henry were governor isn't really relevant to the politics in the modern day.
If I remember Correctly, the 2004 era ( and the 1960s also ) Infrastructure was completed very rapidly in Oklahoma. Since 2007, it has grind to halt. It seems very unlikely that it resumes at that level any time soon. Yes, it is very possible to add High Speed Rail for Interstate 35, costing Trillions for various Unnecessary Nonsense. Oklahoma would never spend Trillions for Rail Corridors. Any Infrastructure likely to be at least started is Beautiful Toll Roads. However, they can not even finish The Chickasaw Turnpike.
Adding an Amtrak Station to or near Win Star is much more easy. And No, Gainesville, Texas is insuficcient. It is in the middle of Gainesville, surrounded by hundreds of thousands of Automobiles, and also Traffic Signals.
Quote from: I-35 on February 22, 2024, 04:11:22 PM
Quote from: Scott5114 on February 22, 2024, 03:37:30 PM
Quote from: I-35 on February 22, 2024, 12:10:50 PM
Quote from: motorola870 on February 16, 2024, 02:24:32 AM
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on February 07, 2024, 11:37:17 PM
Didn't they study a stop at WinStar not that long ago?
How would they do it though? The tracks are on the west side of US77 at exit 1. Would it be cost effective to cut through part of Thackerville with a spur that crosses the interstate to serve Winstar? Or just bus Casino patrons from a stop in Thackerville to the Casino via the exit 1 underpass?
I assume Winstar would just run a shuttle or two over for scheduled stops, and it would be done via the county road at MM3 that is essentially the 'front' of the casino now. Don't ever expect casino patrons to walk anywhere until they are inside the gaming area.
Even then, your mileage may vary. I had a patron that got turned around and needed help finding the exit. As I brought him there he became very angry at how long of a walk it was to the exit. The exit that he had walked that far from in the first place...
Haha, not surprised. I think it's over a half mile from one end to the other? Thank goodness the guy didn't have a hotel room at the far end.
Haha, this wasn't even at WinStar, it was at Newcastle, which is a lot smaller (though it's still one of the bigger Oklahoma casinos).
The only thing I could think to say to the guy was "Well, we can't exactly bring the exit to you..."