I was doing a bit of Google Earth surfing. I lived in the NYC area during my college years, so I was checking out a couple spots on I-78. It was a common entry-exit corridor in/out of the Greater NYC area. I remember the former I-78 corridor thru the Allentown-Bethlehem metro being tolled across the Delaware River. But I didn't realize the newer South bypass for I-78 was tolled as well. Then I got to looking further. Just about every highway of significance is tolled crossing from New Jersey into Pennsylvania. It's free going East. But you're gonna pay going West. Funny thing: the toll bridges stop happening when the Delaware River turns into a NY/PA border, starting with I-84. So this seems to be a New Jersey vs Pennsylvania thing.
As far as I can tell, the NJ/PA border has more toll bridges along it than any other US state to state border. At least 16 toll bridges if I counted correctly. And on the free to cross bridges in the various little townships, most of those damned things have traffic signals and guard shacks.
Is there something the folks in New Jersey and Pennsylvania aren't telling the rest of us in the country? Is the Delaware River a secret demilitarized zone? Are they prepared to go to war one day or something?
Here's a list of all the crossings from the mouth of the Delaware River up to the first fully free major highway crossing in New York State (moving South to North, not counting railroad bridges):
• US-9 Ferry (Toll)
• Fortis Ferry Crossing (Apr-Oct, no cars)(Toll)
• I-295 Wilmington (Toll)
• US-322 Bridgeport (Toll)
• I-76 Walt Whitman Bridge • Philadelphia (Toll)
• I-676 Ben Franklin Bridge • Philadelphia (Toll)
• NJ-90 Besty Ross Bridge • Philadelphia (Toll)
• NJ-73 Tacony Palmyra Bridge • Philadelphia (Toll)
• PA-413 Burlington Bristol Bridge • Philadelphia (Toll)
• I-95 PA TPK/NJ TPK Extension • Philadelphia (Toll)
• US-1 Trenton (Toll)
• Lincoln Highway • Trenton (Free)
• Calhoun Street Bridge • Trenton (Free)
• I-295 Trenton (Toll)
• Washington Crossing (Free)
• Bridge Street • New Hope, PA; Lambertville, NJ (Free)
• US-202 New Hope, PA (Toll)
• Bridge Street • Stockton, NJ (Free)
• Pedestrian Bridge • Lumberville, PA (Free)
• Bridge Street • Frenchtown, NJ (Free)
• Bridge Street • Milford, NJ (Free)
• Delaware Road • Riegelsville, PA (Free)
• I-78, Williamsport, PA Bypass (Toll)
• US-22, Phillipsburg, NJ (Toll)
• Water Street • Belvidere, NJ (Free)
• NJ-94 Portland Columbia Bridge (Toll)
• Portland Columbia Pedestrian Bridge (Free)
• I-80 East Stroudsburg, PA (Toll)
• US-206 Montague, NJ (Toll)
• I-84 Carpenters Point (Free)
It's pretty much a New Jersey thing...
NY
Outerbridge Crossing (toll)
Goethals Bridge (toll)
Bayonne Bridge (toll)
Holland Tunnel (toll)
Lincoln Tunnel (toll)
George Washington Bridge (toll)
Bridges and tunnels are expensive infrastructure to maintain and operate, so they have to either:
a) make one of the DOTs do the majority of the work (NJDOT or PennDOT)
b) make a tolling entity that will operate and maintain a set of infrastructure pieces (DRJTBC, PANYNJ, etc.)
They are bi-state authorities formed with approval by the federal government, with the President's signature.
Per the DRPA website for what ultimately became their 4 bridges. The first bridge was what is known now as the Ben Franklin Bridge. The second bridge referenced is the Walt Whitman Bridge.
JULY 17, 1951
After Pennsylvania and New Jersey reach an agreement, President Harry S. Truman signs the bill creating the Delaware River Port Authority as the successor agency to the Delaware River Bridge Joint Commission. The legislation gives the new agency the responsibility to promote international trade for Delaware River ports. President Truman also signs a companion bill that permits construction of a second bridge across the Delaware River.
Quote from: Bobby5280 on February 03, 2024, 12:40:43 AM
And on the free to cross bridges in the various little townships, most of those damned things have traffic signals and guard shacks.
Also to point this out: These bridges (starting in Trenton and going North) are all toll-supported bridges owned by the DRJTBC. Some have traffic signals on either end of the bridge because of crossroads located near the bridge. The guard shacks are utilized by the commission for a place their security/police detail and maintenance detail can use.
Additional Delaware crossing: Northampton St Bridge in Easton (free)
The Scudders Falls bridge (now 295) used to be free until they redid it.
Deleted old post and rewrote to correct errors I posted the first time around.
I have used all of these crossings except the Fortis Ferry crossing (which I have never heard of) and the Portland Columbia pedestrian bridge, which I did not know about.
There are at least two road bridges upstream of Trenton that were destroyed by floodwaters.
One was at Point Pleasant PA, a couple miles upstream from Lumberville pedestrian bridge. This was destroyed by Hurricane Diane floodwaters in 1955.
Another one around Delaware, NJ (between Belvidere NJ and Columbia NJ) --- possibly also by Hurricane Diane but I am not sure about that. I think US 46 used to cross this bridge and immediately terminate at then-US 611 on the PA side. Once this bridge no longer existed, US 46 was extended northward along the NJ side to Columbia. And so US 46 became in intrastate route only.
You can still see the foundations of the old Point Pleasant Bridge.
I only recently became aware of the Delaware, NJ bridge and therefore have not seen this site.
IIRC, all of the toll bridges north of US 1 were toll at the time I was driving on them (1990s), with the exception of the already mentioned Scudder Falls Bridge.
And the rule of thumb at least is that you have to pay to leave New Jersey.
Historically they were toll bridges because states didn't want to build interstate crossings, so they were left to private companies (and later interstate authorities). Other state lines have or had relatively small toll bridges that would most likely be free if they were intrastate:
http://www.oldtownbridge.com/photos.htm
http://www.bridgemeister.com/pic.php?pid=2112
https://iowadot.gov/historicbridges/historic-bridges/st-francisville-bridge
Quote from: tmoore952I have used all of these crossings except the Fortis Ferry crossing (which I have never heard of) and the Portland Columbia pedestrian bridge, which I did not know about.
It runs from Delaware City, DE to a point near Pennsville Township in New Jersey, several miles South of the I-295 bridge crossing from DE to NJ.
Quote from: Bobby5280 on February 04, 2024, 12:49:57 AM
Quote from: tmoore952I have used all of these crossings except the Fortis Ferry crossing (which I have never heard of) and the Portland Columbia pedestrian bridge, which I did not know about.
It runs from Delaware City, DE to a point near Pennsville Township in New Jersey, several miles South of the I-295 bridge crossing from DE to NJ.
Fort Mott, NJ to be exact.
Quote from: roadman65 on February 04, 2024, 08:24:06 PM
Quote from: Bobby5280 on February 04, 2024, 12:49:57 AM
Quote from: tmoore952I have used all of these crossings except the Fortis Ferry crossing (which I have never heard of) and the Portland Columbia pedestrian bridge, which I did not know about.
It runs from Delaware City, DE to a point near Pennsville Township in New Jersey, several miles South of the I-295 bridge crossing from DE to NJ.
Fort Mott, NJ to be exact.
If this is the ferry that stops at Fort Delaware along the way, then I have taken this from Delaware City to Fort Delaware, in the early 1980s. I don't remember it going to NJ then. It also wasn't called Fortis Ferry then. Which is why I said I had never heard of it.
I thought I heard a few years back about resurrecting the ferry service from New Castle DE to Pennsville NJ. Did that ever happen?
Quote from: tmoore952 on February 04, 2024, 08:35:51 PM
Quote from: roadman65 on February 04, 2024, 08:24:06 PM
Quote from: Bobby5280 on February 04, 2024, 12:49:57 AM
Quote from: tmoore952I have used all of these crossings except the Fortis Ferry crossing (which I have never heard of) and the Portland Columbia pedestrian bridge, which I did not know about.
It runs from Delaware City, DE to a point near Pennsville Township in New Jersey, several miles South of the I-295 bridge crossing from DE to NJ.
Fort Mott, NJ to be exact.
If this is the ferry that stops at Fort Delaware along the way, then I have taken this from Delaware City to Fort Delaware, in the early 1980s. I don't remember it going to NJ then. It also wasn't called Fortis Ferry then. Which is why I said I had never heard of it.
I thought I heard a few years back about resurrecting the ferry service from New Castle DE to Pennsville NJ. Did that ever happen?
I googled the Fortis Ferry and this crossing never appeared in results. I had to research it further to find info on it.
Quote from: tmoore952 on February 03, 2024, 11:33:32 AM
You can still see the foundations of the old Point Pleasant Bridge.
I only recently became aware of the Delaware, NJ bridge and therefore have not seen this site.
IIRC, all of the toll bridges north of US 1 were toll at the time I was driving on them (1990s), with the exception of the already mentioned Scudder Falls Bridge.
The Delaware, NJ bridge is NJ 163. I had a road meet stop there and it is well worth a visit.
It's because the two states are separated by a wide river and crossing over it requires bridges that are very expensive to build and maintain. It's the same reason why every crossing of the Hudson south of Albany is tolled.
Quote from: kernals12 on February 06, 2024, 08:40:53 AM
It's because the two states are separated by a wide river and crossing over it requires bridges that are very expensive to build and maintain. It's the same reason why every crossing of the Hudson south of Albany is tolled.
The Delaware River isn't very wide north of Trenton.
The Amtrak rail line bridge across the Delaware River in Trenton is the dead end point for any barge traffic. Going North past Trenton the Delaware River gets pretty ordinary.
You have to pay a toll going west on I-80 from NJ into PA.
You have to pay a toll going east on the George Washington Bridge from NJ into NY.
Is New Jersey charging an "exit toll" to leave that state? Is that even constitutional?
Quote from: kramie13 on February 08, 2024, 12:17:46 PM
You have to pay a toll going west on I-80 from NJ into PA.
You have to pay a toll going east on the George Washington Bridge from NJ into NY.
Is New Jersey charging an "exit toll" to leave that state? Is that even constitutional?
It's often joked that you want to get out of New Jersey so badly, you need to pay to leave. However, it's more innocent than that. Over the years, the toll agencies had 2 way tolls, so you were paying in both directions. When the tolling agencies & authorities switched to one way tolling, they independently decided which direction to toll, which happens to be leaving the state.
NJ itself isn't charging the toll. In fact, I don't think they receive any of the revenue from those tolls.
Also, there are numerous ways to leave the state without paying a toll. Several bridges over the Delaware River between NJ & PA don't charge a toll. And all the land crossings between NJ & NY don't charge a toll.
Quote from: jeffandnicole on February 08, 2024, 12:34:29 PM
Quote from: kramie13 on February 08, 2024, 12:17:46 PM
You have to pay a toll going west on I-80 from NJ into PA.
You have to pay a toll going east on the George Washington Bridge from NJ into NY.
Is New Jersey charging an "exit toll" to leave that state? Is that even constitutional?
It's often joked that you want to get out of New Jersey so badly, you need to pay to leave. However, it's more innocent than that. Over the years, the toll agencies had 2 way tolls, so you were paying in both directions. When the tolling agencies & authorities switched to one way tolling, they independently decided which direction to toll, which happens to be leaving the state.
NJ itself isn't charging the toll. In fact, I don't think they receive any of the revenue from those tolls.
Also, there are numerous ways to leave the state without paying a toll. Several bridges over the Delaware River between NJ & PA don't charge a toll. And all the land crossings between NJ & NY don't charge a toll.
At the risk of stating the obvious, but I'll do so anyway --- the one-way tolls over each river all need to be in the same direction to avoid what I'll call "shun-tolling" to avoid all tolls over that particular river (I remember this being mentioned in the Philadelphia newspapers at the time the change was made from two-way tolling to one-way tolling - for the Delaware River this would be important only in the Philly area and south where all the bridges are tolled). I'm not privy as to why it was decided that leaving NJ was the direction to be tolled..
==============================
However, expanding the topic slightly, if the Verazzano Bridge is also a one-way toll, is there a (toll-cost) advantage to go from NJ to Long Island (or vice versa-- depending on which direction the Verazzano is tolled) by way of Manhattan and using a free bridge over the East River instead? (not that it would be any faster)
Quote from: tmoore952 on February 08, 2024, 06:49:16 PM
Quote from: jeffandnicole on February 08, 2024, 12:34:29 PM
Quote from: kramie13 on February 08, 2024, 12:17:46 PM
You have to pay a toll going west on I-80 from NJ into PA.
You have to pay a toll going east on the George Washington Bridge from NJ into NY.
Is New Jersey charging an "exit toll" to leave that state? Is that even constitutional?
It's often joked that you want to get out of New Jersey so badly, you need to pay to leave. However, it's more innocent than that. Over the years, the toll agencies had 2 way tolls, so you were paying in both directions. When the tolling agencies & authorities switched to one way tolling, they independently decided which direction to toll, which happens to be leaving the state.
NJ itself isn't charging the toll. In fact, I don't think they receive any of the revenue from those tolls.
Also, there are numerous ways to leave the state without paying a toll. Several bridges over the Delaware River between NJ & PA don't charge a toll. And all the land crossings between NJ & NY don't charge a toll.
At the risk of stating the obvious, but I'll do so anyway --- the one-way tolls over each river all need to be in the same direction to avoid what I'll call "shun-tolling" to avoid all tolls over that particular river (I remember this being mentioned in the Philadelphia newspapers at the time the change was made from two-way tolling to one-way tolling - for the Delaware River this would be important only in the Philly area and south where all the bridges are tolled). I'm not privy as to why it was decided that leaving NJ was the direction to be tolled..
==============================
However, expanding the topic slightly, if the Verazzano Bridge is also a one-way toll, is there a (toll-cost) advantage to go from NJ to Long Island (or vice versa-- depending on which direction the Verazzano is tolled) by way of Manhattan and using a free bridge over the East River instead? (not that it would be any faster)
1) It is always a toll entering the city. Philly or NYC. And all other bridges on the same river follow suit (including within NYS).
2) Verrazano is 2-way now. But when it was 1-way, you wanted to use 278 going into Long Island and through Manhattan going home.
Quote from: Alps on February 08, 2024, 07:34:46 PM
Quote from: tmoore952 on February 08, 2024, 06:49:16 PM
Quote from: jeffandnicole on February 08, 2024, 12:34:29 PM
Quote from: kramie13 on February 08, 2024, 12:17:46 PM
You have to pay a toll going west on I-80 from NJ into PA.
You have to pay a toll going east on the George Washington Bridge from NJ into NY.
Is New Jersey charging an "exit toll" to leave that state? Is that even constitutional?
It's often joked that you want to get out of New Jersey so badly, you need to pay to leave. However, it's more innocent than that. Over the years, the toll agencies had 2 way tolls, so you were paying in both directions. When the tolling agencies & authorities switched to one way tolling, they independently decided which direction to toll, which happens to be leaving the state.
NJ itself isn't charging the toll. In fact, I don't think they receive any of the revenue from those tolls.
Also, there are numerous ways to leave the state without paying a toll. Several bridges over the Delaware River between NJ & PA don't charge a toll. And all the land crossings between NJ & NY don't charge a toll.
At the risk of stating the obvious, but I'll do so anyway --- the one-way tolls over each river all need to be in the same direction to avoid what I'll call "shun-tolling" to avoid all tolls over that particular river (I remember this being mentioned in the Philadelphia newspapers at the time the change was made from two-way tolling to one-way tolling - for the Delaware River this would be important only in the Philly area and south where all the bridges are tolled). I'm not privy as to why it was decided that leaving NJ was the direction to be tolled..
==============================
However, expanding the topic slightly, if the Verazzano Bridge is also a one-way toll, is there a (toll-cost) advantage to go from NJ to Long Island (or vice versa-- depending on which direction the Verazzano is tolled) by way of Manhattan and using a free bridge over the East River instead? (not that it would be any faster)
1) It is always a toll entering the city. Philly or NYC. And all other bridges on the same river follow suit (including within NYS).
2) Verrazano is 2-way now. But when it was 1-way, you wanted to use 278 going into Long Island and through Manhattan going home.
Or...LIRR...
Quote from: Alps on February 08, 2024, 07:34:46 PM
Quote from: tmoore952 on February 08, 2024, 06:49:16 PM
Quote from: jeffandnicole on February 08, 2024, 12:34:29 PM
Quote from: kramie13 on February 08, 2024, 12:17:46 PM
You have to pay a toll going west on I-80 from NJ into PA.
You have to pay a toll going east on the George Washington Bridge from NJ into NY.
Is New Jersey charging an "exit toll" to leave that state? Is that even constitutional?
It's often joked that you want to get out of New Jersey so badly, you need to pay to leave. However, it's more innocent than that. Over the years, the toll agencies had 2 way tolls, so you were paying in both directions. When the tolling agencies & authorities switched to one way tolling, they independently decided which direction to toll, which happens to be leaving the state.
NJ itself isn't charging the toll. In fact, I don't think they receive any of the revenue from those tolls.
Also, there are numerous ways to leave the state without paying a toll. Several bridges over the Delaware River between NJ & PA don't charge a toll. And all the land crossings between NJ & NY don't charge a toll.
At the risk of stating the obvious, but I'll do so anyway --- the one-way tolls over each river all need to be in the same direction to avoid what I'll call "shun-tolling" to avoid all tolls over that particular river (I remember this being mentioned in the Philadelphia newspapers at the time the change was made from two-way tolling to one-way tolling - for the Delaware River this would be important only in the Philly area and south where all the bridges are tolled). I'm not privy as to why it was decided that leaving NJ was the direction to be tolled..
==============================
However, expanding the topic slightly, if the Verazzano Bridge is also a one-way toll, is there a (toll-cost) advantage to go from NJ to Long Island (or vice versa-- depending on which direction the Verazzano is tolled) by way of Manhattan and using a free bridge over the East River instead? (not that it would be any faster)
1) It is always a toll entering the city. Philly or NYC. And all other bridges on the same river follow suit (including within NYS).
2) Verrazano is 2-way now. But when it was 1-way, you wanted to use 278 going into Long Island and through Manhattan going home.
That holds true even out on the West Coast. All of the toll bridges that cross San Francisco Bay (SF-Oakland Bay Bridge, San Mateo-Hayward Bridge, Golden Gate Bridge, Richmond-San Rafael Bridge, and Dumbarton Bridge) charge the toll for traffic inbound to San Francisco, while no toll is charged for outbound traffic across those bridges.
Quote from: Alps on February 08, 2024, 07:34:46 PM
2) Verrazano is 2-way now. But when it was 1-way, you wanted to use 278 going into Long Island and through Manhattan going home.
Didn't know it was 2-way now. I haven't driven up there since the late 1990s.
Quote from: tmoore952 on February 08, 2024, 09:26:05 PM
Quote from: Alps on February 08, 2024, 07:34:46 PM
2) Verrazano is 2-way now. But when it was 1-way, you wanted to use 278 going into Long Island and through Manhattan going home.
Didn't know it was 2-way now. I haven't driven up there since the late 1990s.
It was fairly recent - December 2020 according to Wikipedia (aka after AET had been implemented). Last time I drove to Long Island in 2018, I similarly took advantage of the one-way tolling by using Goethals/Verrazzano heading east and Throgs Neck/George Washington heading back west.
Quote from: Bobby5280 on February 06, 2024, 01:23:55 PM
The Amtrak rail line bridge across the Delaware River in Trenton is the dead end point for any barge traffic. Going North past Trenton the Delaware River gets pretty ordinary.
Look up "fall line".
Quote from: tmoore952Didn't know it was 2-way now. I haven't driven up there since the late 1990s.
I lived on Fort Wadsworth from 1986-1990 due to being a military brat. I'd started college at an art school in Manhattan and moved to Brooklyn to finish when my parents got stationed elsewhere. The Verrazano Bridge and historic Battery Weed fortress was a short walk out the back door. South Beach was nearby, which is the only place I've seen LOTS of horseshoe crabs washed up on shore. It's easily the most scenic place we were ever stationed, and we've had beautiful surroundings in other places like Yuma, Arizona and Iwakuni, Japan. IIRC, the one-way toll for the Verrazano Bridge back in the late 80's was $3.50. Seems like a bargain now. With everything shifted to electronic tolling it makes sense to get rid of the one way tolls and just keep tabs on all traffic movements in both directions.
One-way tolling on the Verrazano began in 1986 because of air pollution concerns for nearby residents. I remember we had a discussion here when there was a proposal to restore two-way tolling in which someone pointed out that Congress had forced one-way tolling and thus Congress had to repeal that mandate, which finally happened in late 2019 (it took a while longer to implement because of the need to install the appropriate equipment).
In the department of things younger people today might find baffling, when the Verrazano opened, the toll was 50¢ and the guy who paid the first toll paid it with a single coin. (The toll collector kept the coin for himself and replaced it with 50¢ of his own money.)
It's Verrazzano...
Quote from: Rothman on February 10, 2024, 09:26:20 AM
It's Verrazzano...
But it wasn't in 1964 and 1986, the two times for which I specifically referred to it by name. I didn't use the name when referring to 2019–20.
Quote from: 1995hoo on February 10, 2024, 09:32:13 AM
Quote from: Rothman on February 10, 2024, 09:26:20 AM
It's Verrazzano...
But it wasn't in 1964 and 1986, the two times for which I specifically referred to it by name. I didn't use the name when referring to 2019–20.
The name update was a correction to make it accurate. It's not like a new bridge was built or they changed who the name referred to.
Quote from: Rothman on February 10, 2024, 09:34:40 AM
Quote from: 1995hoo on February 10, 2024, 09:32:13 AM
Quote from: Rothman on February 10, 2024, 09:26:20 AM
It's Verrazzano...
But it wasn't in 1964 and 1986, the two times for which I specifically referred to it by name. I didn't use the name when referring to 2019–20.
The name update was a correction to make it accurate. It's not like a new bridge was built or they changed who the name referred to.
Of course it was a typo in the original documents. Doesn't mean anyone else is wrong to use that spelling when referring to the period when it was spelled that way, but if you prefer, I can just call it the Narrows Bridge like many people did when it opened.
I'm not about to use the other rather offensive name my late grandmother used to refer to it (hint: second word is "Gangplank").
Quote from: 1995hoo on February 10, 2024, 09:41:17 AM
Quote from: Rothman on February 10, 2024, 09:34:40 AM
Quote from: 1995hoo on February 10, 2024, 09:32:13 AM
Quote from: Rothman on February 10, 2024, 09:26:20 AM
It's Verrazzano...
But it wasn't in 1964 and 1986, the two times for which I specifically referred to it by name. I didn't use the name when referring to 2019–20.
The name update was a correction to make it accurate. It's not like a new bridge was built or they changed who the name referred to.
Of course it was a typo in the original documents. Doesn't mean anyone else is wrong to use that spelling when referring to the period when it was spelled that way, but if you prefer, I can just call it the Narrows Bridge like many people did when it opened.
I'm not about to use the other rather offensive name my late grandmother used to refer to it (hint: second word is "Gangplank").
I'm the one who originally brought up the Verrazano/Verrazzano Bridge in this thread. It came up in a addition I made to a discussion about one-way tolling in NYC. And I also stated later that I had not been up there since the late 1990s, so I didn't know about the change and also didn't hear about in the media.
I'll gently suggest, when bringing up things like this, that something is also added which actually contributes to the thread. That's what I try to do. IMO, in my short time here, too many interesting threads get derailed/hijacked by arguments over terminology or wording.
Or maybe we've just run out of useful things to say about this??
Quote from: Rothman on February 10, 2024, 09:26:20 AM
It's Verrazzano...
Wasn't it misspelled on at least one sign in the area of the bridge itself and very few people noticed?
One thing to remember is that the one-way tolling is a thing that happened over time for all of the various bi-state agencies (including the Port Authority of NY/NJ). Pretty much every bridge (and tunnel) was built with two-way tolling, and at various points from 1970 through 1991, tolls for the NJ-bound direction were eliminated and the tolls towards PA or NY were doubled. I'm actually a tad bit surprised that we're not hearing more agencies looking for a return to two-way tolling with the moves to AET so they can capture people who might look to leave NJ via a free means and return via one of those crossings since there's no toll back to NJ.
Quote from: storm2k on February 11, 2024, 05:15:08 PM
One thing to remember is that the one-way tolling is a thing that happened over time for all of the various bi-state agencies (including the Port Authority of NY/NJ). Pretty much every bridge (and tunnel) was built with two-way tolling, and at various points from 1970 through 1991, tolls for the NJ-bound direction were eliminated and the tolls towards PA or NY were doubled. I'm actually a tad bit surprised that we're not hearing more agencies looking for a return to two-way tolling with the moves to AET so they can capture people who might look to leave NJ via a free means and return via one of those crossings since there's no toll back to NJ.
There are added costs for equipment installation and maintenance for tolling both directions. Processing costs, as a percentage of revenue, are also higher. That being said, with AET, I'd prefer seeing two-way tolling as a matter of fairness.
Quote from: Bitmapped on February 11, 2024, 07:48:31 PM
Quote from: storm2k on February 11, 2024, 05:15:08 PM
One thing to remember is that the one-way tolling is a thing that happened over time for all of the various bi-state agencies (including the Port Authority of NY/NJ). Pretty much every bridge (and tunnel) was built with two-way tolling, and at various points from 1970 through 1991, tolls for the NJ-bound direction were eliminated and the tolls towards PA or NY were doubled. I'm actually a tad bit surprised that we're not hearing more agencies looking for a return to two-way tolling with the moves to AET so they can capture people who might look to leave NJ via a free means and return via one of those crossings since there's no toll back to NJ.
There are added costs for equipment installation and maintenance for tolling both directions. Processing costs, as a percentage of revenue, are also higher. That being said, with AET, I'd prefer seeing two-way tolling as a matter of fairness.
With Staten Island one way tolling works to some degree as there are no free means off the island for vehicles. One must eventually pass the other way.
Key Biscayne in Florida is another as well as Sanibel Island. One can only enter and leave via one crossing so no one can really shunpike and either crossing one must use both ways being those islands have no outlets to any other roads leading off the islands.
Quote from: storm2k on February 11, 2024, 05:15:08 PM
I'm actually a tad bit surprised that we're not hearing more agencies looking for a return to two-way tolling with the moves to AET so they can capture people who might look to leave NJ via a free means and return via one of those crossings since there's no toll back to NJ.
I was thinking along the same lines -- that with AET it would be very easy to go back to two way tolling.
When I lived near Trenton, I used to try to avoid tolls all the time using the method you describe.
It is a lot harder logistically if you live south of there, since there are no free bridges south of there.
Quote from: tmoore952 on February 12, 2024, 11:36:24 AM
Quote from: storm2k on February 11, 2024, 05:15:08 PM
I'm actually a tad bit surprised that we're not hearing more agencies looking for a return to two-way tolling with the moves to AET so they can capture people who might look to leave NJ via a free means and return via one of those crossings since there's no toll back to NJ.
I was thinking along the same lines -- that with AET it would be very easy to go back to two way tolling.
When I lived near Trenton, I used to try to avoid tolls all the time using the method you describe.
It is a lot harder logistically if you live south of there, since there are no free bridges south of there.
"Very easy" also equals "Very expensive".
A toll agency will have to purchase double of everything. Increased unpaid tolls. Double the research reviewing tag numbers. Increased mailings and charges. Double the maintenance. Yet the overall revenue would be about the same.
Look at DE's I-95: It has 2 way tolling, so people just avoid the toll plaza 2 ways instead of 1 way since there are reasonably close free alternatives. Some people, such as me, will often avoid it one direction and pay it the other direction, which at least cuts down on what I was charged. With 1 way tolling, I'll be more inclined to avoid it the tolled direction completely, deriving DelDOT of all its revenue.
And with the DRJTBC from Trenton on North, same thing. As above, look what you're doing - you're already avoiding the toll. So why would the Commission add more tolls to opposing traffic, just for people to avoid them again? It would be a smarter option to add one-way WB tolls to the *free* bridges, so motorists don't have an easily ability to avoid the toll completely.
Quote from: jeffandnicole on February 12, 2024, 12:25:27 PM
Quote from: tmoore952 on February 12, 2024, 11:36:24 AM
Quote from: storm2k on February 11, 2024, 05:15:08 PM
I'm actually a tad bit surprised that we're not hearing more agencies looking for a return to two-way tolling with the moves to AET so they can capture people who might look to leave NJ via a free means and return via one of those crossings since there's no toll back to NJ.
I was thinking along the same lines -- that with AET it would be very easy to go back to two way tolling.
When I lived near Trenton, I used to try to avoid tolls all the time using the method you describe.
It is a lot harder logistically if you live south of there, since there are no free bridges south of there.
"Very easy" also equals "Very expensive".
A toll agency will have to purchase double of everything. Increased unpaid tolls. Double the research reviewing tag numbers. Increased mailings and charges. Double the maintenance. Yet the overall revenue would be about the same.
Look at DE's I-95: It has 2 way tolling, so people just avoid the toll plaza 2 ways instead of 1 way since there are reasonably close free alternatives. Some people, such as me, will often avoid it one direction and pay it the other direction, which at least cuts down on what I was charged. With 1 way tolling, I'll be more inclined to avoid it the tolled direction completely, deriving DelDOT of all its revenue.
And with the DRJTBC from Trenton on North, same thing. As above, look what you're doing - you're already avoiding the toll. So why would the Commission add more tolls to opposing traffic, just for people to avoid them again? It would be a smarter option to add one-way WB tolls to the *free* bridges, so motorists don't have an easily ability to avoid the toll completely.
Part of the reasoning for one-way tolling, as least initially, was to cut down on the need for human toll takers (and [I hope it was at least] a desire to be kinder to the environment by reducing emissions from idling).
Anyway, that was the perspective I was looking at as far as AET -- no humans to worry about.
But I do see what you are saying wrt to infrastructure etc.
OTOH, IMO driving around the toll makes sense if it is easy to do, and it is worth it timewise. That generally isn't the case north of Easton anyway.
Explanation of the Delaware NJ bridge:
The former crossing at Delaware was the original Delaware, Lackawanna and Western Railway bridge over the Delaware River. When they built the new bridge (still there), they sold off the old structure to Reverend Henry Darlington, a local Episcopal minister. He turned into a road toll bridge to cross the river. He was the toughest person to sell to the bi-state organization that bought up the private bridges. Most people sold for under $100,000 in that time period, Darlington held them hostage for $275,000 in 1932 (about $5MM now). The bridge was there until 1953, when the Portland-Columbia Bridge was built and they dismantled it.
Quote from: abqtraveler on February 08, 2024, 09:20:31 PM
That holds true even out on the West Coast. All of the toll bridges that cross San Francisco Bay (SF-Oakland Bay Bridge, San Mateo-Hayward Bridge, Golden Gate Bridge, Richmond-San Rafael Bridge, and Dumbarton Bridge) charge the toll for traffic inbound to San Francisco, while no toll is charged for outbound traffic across those bridges.
But then you have the three north-south bridges over Carquinez Bay and its extensions. Like the other state operate bridges (the Golden Gate Bridge is separate), they charge going from the Alameda/Contra Costa County side to the other. So for I-80, the Bay Bridge is a westbound toll but the Carquinez Bridge (Vallejo) is an eastbound toll.
When I lived in the South Bay, this did set up a great shun-bridging opportunity when going wine-tasting in the Napa Valley. It was go north on the peninsula and across the Golden Gate Bridge (no-toll direction), then return home over the Carquinez Bridge (no-toll direction) and then down I-880 to the San Jose area.