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https://www.toledoblade.com/local/transportation/2024/06/17/state-lays-out-vision-us-23-corridor-through-central-ohio/stories/20240617126

QuoteDELAWARE, Ohio – State transportation officials on Monday laid out a proposal for overhauling the last stretch of U.S. 23 north of Columbus that they say will reduce the number of stoplights from 39 to seven by building new interchanges, overpasses, and restricted U-turn lanes.

But Gov. Mike DeWine stressed that this is not the state's answer to finding a faster and safer way for the Toledo area to connect with the state capital. The proposed answer to that question will come later this year.

"We're not taking anything else off the table," he said at Columbus State Community College's Delaware campus. "...The question of how long it takes to get from the Statehouse to downtown Toledo is intertwined deeply with what goes on in Route 23. ... These are things that we are comfortable doing that we know will save lives and will help anybody who drives on north 23 out of Columbus."

And it would also be extremely expensive, with the very preliminary ballpark at between $1.4 and $1.9 billion and would take years to complete. So far the state has committed just $17 million for initial design work for a segment north of the city of Delaware.

The $13.5 billion, two-year transportation budget enacted last year held $10 million for a Strategic Transportation and Development Analysis of demographic and congestion trends over the next 10, 20, and 30 years. The idea is to predict future needs to keep traffic flowing.

As part of that study, the Ohio Department of Transportation, the Toledo Metropolitan Area Council of Governments, and the Mid-Ohio Regional Planning Commission are looking at potential corridors better connecting Columbus with both Toledo and Sandusky.

Improvements to the 23-mile stretch of heavily congested, stoplight-ridden Route 23 corridor between the I-270 Columbus Beltway in Worthington and Waldo, about 100 miles south of Toledo, could be just one step in that direction.

Public hearings on the recommendations for this stretch will be held in early August.

The Route 23 corridor carries some 30 percent more traffic than it was designed for. Southbound highway traffic from I-75 and State Rt. 15 bottlenecks further south, particularly in the heavily developed cities of Delaware and Lewis Center before reaching I-270.

Does anyone think this has any chance of eventually being constructed? The corridor is very built-up between Columbus and Waldo, and I imagine the NIMBYs would be screaming "bloody murder" about any improvements, especially between Interstate 270 and the city of Delaware. I suppose they could build more underpasses like the one that exists just north of 270: https://www.google.com/maps/@40.117216,-83.0161782,3a,75y,341.06h,89.55t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sz3MNd03u3w-oGo6FDnOhUA!2e0!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fpanoid%3Dz3MNd03u3w-oGo6FDnOhUA%26cb_client%3Dmaps_sv.share%26w%3D900%26h%3D600%26yaw%3D341.0594631891904%26pitch%3D0.448495318116386%26thumbfov%3D90!7i16384!8i8192?coh=205410&entry=ttu. I'll believe it when I see it.

This proposal has legs because it is coming from Gov. DeWine's office. Here are the official press release and recommendations:

https://governor.ohio.gov/media/news-and-media/governor-dewine-odot-announce-safety-recommendations-for-us-23-corridor

https://content.govdelivery.com/attachments/OHIOGOVERNOR/2024/06/14/file_attachments/2908678/US%2023%20Recommendations%20One-Pager-FINAL%20%281%29.pdf

He has had multiple press conferences with ODOT for priorities of his office, including other safety projects that have been completed or are currently underway.

Quote from: carbaugh2 on June 18, 2024, 05:25:24 PMThis proposal has legs because it is coming from Gov. DeWine's office. Here are the official press release and recommendations:

I just hope they don't end up doing what they did to US 19 in Pinellas county, Florida, where they installed a bunch of overpasses. I don't like how they elevated the road. Things just don't flow naturally between the traffic and the shopping centers and everything else going on. I don't like the way it looks and I think it disrupts how people get to shopping, dining and all of the other things they need to do and in their everyday life with respect to the businesses along US 19.

I think they should install a bunch of J-turns up until you get to Kroger. North of Kroger, you can start installing overpasses. Maybe you can install an overpass at Powell Road. That won't be too disruptive.

DeWine did say that this is not going to be the Toledo to Columbus fix. This is only to fix US 23 between Columbus and Waldo.

The segment between Columbus and Waldo is the most pressing segment that needs upgrading. The portion from Waldo to Carey is already a four-lane roadway with bypasses, and I'm not sure if the portion from Carey to Toledo needs an expansion to four lanes.

Quote from: The Ghostbuster on June 19, 2024, 11:28:40 AMThe segment between Columbus and Waldo is the most pressing segment that needs upgrading. The portion from Waldo to Carey is already a four-lane roadway with bypasses, and I'm not sure if the portion from Carey to Toledo needs an expansion to four lanes.

It's unclear why ODOT hasn't petitioned to move the US-23 designation onto OH-15 and I-75, though that was clearly the intent when they built out the 4-lane expressway between Findlay and Carey. Nobody besides roadgeeks and folks blindly following route designations has a reason to follow US-23 instead of staying on the 4-lane.

If AASHTO wants to maintain a US Highway designation on the existing US-23 section, ODOT can extend US-223 south (ideally, having it follow I-475 and I-75 around the north side of Toledo to I-280, then south. Otherwise, extending OH-420 would work fine.

Wonder if they'll do like Independence Blvd. (US 74) in Charlotte, NC and make it a superstreet.  Build tight interchanges where feasible, prohibit all left turns (make u-turns at the interchanges), and maintain driveway access to existing businesses via a dedicated right turn lane.  Could even have an HOV or bus lane element in the median.

Quote from: JREwing78 on June 19, 2024, 08:25:23 PMIt's unclear why ODOT hasn't petitioned to move the US-23 designation onto OH-15 and I-75, though that was clearly the intent when they built out the 4-lane expressway between Findlay and Carey. Nobody besides roadgeeks and folks blindly following route designations has a reason to follow US-23 instead of staying on the 4-lane.

There are a several of these kinds of anomalies that need to be fixed:
-Ohio 161/37/16 East of Columbus

-US 33 needs to be removed from surface roads going through Columbus. Two options: 1) Either I-270 connecting both US 33 segments; or, 2) US 33 follows Ohio 104/71/315/270 to connect the two segments. Option 1 seems cleaner and less confusing. US 33 inside I-270 can be given a different number.

- US 23/Ohio 15

- US 23/Ohio 823

I'm sure there are more, but that's what I can think of off the top of my head.

Quote from: JREwing78 on June 19, 2024, 08:25:23 PM

Quote from: The Ghostbuster on June 19, 2024, 11:28:40 AMThe segment between Columbus and Waldo is the most pressing segment that needs upgrading. The portion from Waldo to Carey is already a four-lane roadway with bypasses, and I'm not sure if the portion from Carey to Toledo needs an expansion to four lanes.

It's unclear why ODOT hasn't petitioned to move the US-23 designation onto OH-15 and I-75, though that was clearly the intent when they built out the 4-lane expressway between Findlay and Carey. Nobody besides roadgeeks and folks blindly following route designations has a reason to follow US-23 instead of staying on the 4-lane.

If AASHTO wants to maintain a US Highway designation on the existing US-23 section, ODOT can extend US-223 south (ideally, having it follow I-475 and I-75 around the north side of Toledo to I-280, then south. Otherwise, extending OH-420 would work fine.

Actually, they really messed up and moved it from modern-day SR 199 to another random two-lane road... Whoever was in charge, both at AASHTO and ODOT during those years, did the public a great disservice with that plan. Was Fostoria upset at the prospect of losing US highway access? If that was the case, extending 223 down that corridor would have been a much better option.

Quote from: JREwing78 on June 19, 2024, 08:25:23 PMIf AASHTO wants to maintain a US Highway designation on the existing US-23 section, ODOT can extend US-223 south (ideally, having it follow I-475 and I-75 around the north side of Toledo to I-280, then south.

That extension routing makes less sense than the current routing of US-23.  You're not helping the argument to eliminate an illogical routing by proposing an even more ludicrous one.

Quote from: Molandfreak on June 23, 2024, 03:39:01 PMIt's unclear why ODOT hasn't petitioned to move the US-23 designation onto OH-15 and I-75, though that was clearly the intent when they built out the 4-lane expressway between Findlay and Carey. Nobody besides roadgeeks and folks blindly following route designations has a reason to follow US-23 instead of staying on the 4-lane.

If AASHTO wants to maintain a US Highway designation on the existing US-23 section, ODOT can extend US-223 south (ideally, having it follow I-475 and I-75 around the north side of Toledo to I-280, then south. Otherwise, extending OH-420 would work fine.

It's not so much about messing up as it is about NEVER GETTING FIXED. You would think someone at ODOT would say, "Hey, this is pretty stupid. Let's fix it." Same with US 33 through Columbus. I don't get it.

Quote from: wanderer2575 on June 23, 2024, 05:31:55 PMThat extension routing makes less sense than the current routing of US-23.  You're not helping the argument to eliminate an illogical routing by proposing an even more ludicrous one.

There is nothing at all illogical about it. For all intents and purposes, Ohio 15 and US 23 are the same highway. A highway that appears to the driver as a single highway should have a uniform number rather than switching numbers for no apparent reason, not to mention that it is a four lane highway through most of the state.

US 23 to I-75, then concurrent with I-75 until I-475 W. Problem solved.

The two lane segment of US 23 can become US 223. You can even put decals over the existing signs if you want to save a few bucks.

Quote from: wanderer2575 on June 23, 2024, 05:31:55 PM

Quote from: JREwing78 on June 19, 2024, 08:25:23 PMIf AASHTO wants to maintain a US Highway designation on the existing US-23 section, ODOT can extend US-223 south (ideally, having it follow I-475 and I-75 around the north side of Toledo to I-280, then south.

That extension routing makes less sense than the current routing of US-23.  You're not helping the argument to eliminate an illogical routing by proposing an even more ludicrous one.

How does using 223 as a crutch make less sense than having a US highway following a long-distance expressway suddenly exit that expressway to serve some random podunk towns, then rejoin the expressway routing later?

Quote from: TempoNick on June 23, 2024, 05:39:48 PM

Quote from: wanderer2575 on June 23, 2024, 05:31:55 PMThat extension routing makes less sense than the current routing of US-23.  You're not helping the argument to eliminate an illogical routing by proposing an even more ludicrous one.

There is nothing at all illogical about it. For all intents and purposes, Ohio 15 and US 23 are the same highway. A highway that appears to the driver as a single highway should have a uniform number rather than switching numbers for no apparent reason, not to mention that it is a four lane highway through most of the state.

US 23 to I-75, then concurrent with I-75 until I-475 W. Problem solved.

I don't argue against that at all.  I argue that the suggested extension routing of US-224 (to keep a US route on the existing US-23 alignment) makes even less sense than the current US-23 routing.  "For all intents and purposes, Ohio 15 and US 23 are the same highway."  I agree.  Are you going to say that I-475 <-> I-75 <-> I-280 also is, for all intents and purposes, one highway?  (Although an interesting side effect is that the I-280 and OH-420 designations could be eliminated.)

Quote from: wanderer2575 on June 23, 2024, 05:53:20 PMI don't argue against that at all.  I argue that the suggested extension routing of US-224 (to keep a US route on the existing US-23 alignment) makes even less sense than the current US-23 routing.  "For all intents and purposes, Ohio 15 and US 23 are the same highway."  I agree.  Are you going to say that I-475 <-> I-75 <-> I-280 also is, for all intents and purposes, one highway?  (Although an interesting side effect is that the I-280 and OH-420 designations could be eliminated.)

Yeah, I have to agree with you there. Just a quick look at the map shows that OH 420 is the only one that "might" make sense. I don't know, is it some kind of a big insult against the town if the road going to it is downgraded from a US Route to a state route? Doesn't sound like that big of a deal to me. After all, US Routes are just state routes that (usually) cross more than one state.

I guess they could call it Alt 23 if they want.

Quote from: TempoNick on June 25, 2024, 12:29:33 AM

Quote from: wanderer2575 on June 23, 2024, 05:53:20 PMI don't argue against that at all.  I argue that the suggested extension routing of US-224 (to keep a US route on the existing US-23 alignment) makes even less sense than the current US-23 routing.  "For all intents and purposes, Ohio 15 and US 23 are the same highway."  I agree.  Are you going to say that I-475 <-> I-75 <-> I-280 also is, for all intents and purposes, one highway?  (Although an interesting side effect is that the I-280 and OH-420 designations could be eliminated.)

Yeah, I have to agree with you there. Just a quick look at the map shows that OH 420 is the only one that "might" make sense. I don't know, is it some kind of a big insult against the town if the road going to it is downgraded from a US Route to a state route? Doesn't sound like that big of a deal to me. After all, US Routes are just state routes that (usually) cross more than one state.

Well, look at all the states and cities that have pushed over the years to get US routes upgraded to Interstate designations (and I'm not talking about physical road features; I'm talking about the red-white-blue route shield) for the sake of that magical "economic development," and I can see where a city or town might have an issue with losing even the US route designation.  Fostoria, for one, is a decent-sized town that might take exception, although other posted state routes run through it.

Then again, I don't know that there was significant pushback when long stretches of US-24 and US-30 were turned over to counties and townships, not even getting state route designations, as new expressway alignments were built.  (OH-424 being an exception, but the designation no longer exists.)

Quote from: wanderer2575 on June 26, 2024, 12:43:37 PMWell, look at all the states and cities that have pushed over the years to get US routes upgraded to Interstate designations (and I'm not talking about physical road features; I'm talking about the red-white-blue route shield) for the sake of that magical "economic development,"

I am all for that because I think that Red White and Blue shield sends a message to drivers, that message being that you're going to be driving on a four-lane divided highway and you're not going to be stuck in traffic lights.

Quote from: TempoNick on June 27, 2024, 03:16:18 PMthat message being that you're going to be driving on a four-lane divided highway

And those of us who know how to read maps know that without the fancy R/W/B sign.

I would be interested to hear how Ohio handles renumbering / realignments. Perhaps Ohio prefers not to have a concurrency between Interstates and non-interstates?

If that were the case, perhaps Ohio would prefer US 23 not to have a 50-mile concurrency with I-75 / 475. Also, why not leave US 23 as an alternative to I-75 by leaving it as-is? US 40 parallels I-70 most of the way through the state, I don't see the problem with US 23 doing the same.

Also, personally, I think it's better to have routes going through the city (i.e. Columbus) over getting clumped on the beltway (i.e. Indianapolis).

Quote from: PColumbus73 on June 28, 2024, 04:51:17 PMI would be interested to hear how Ohio handles renumbering / realignments. Perhaps Ohio prefers not to have a concurrency between Interstates and non-interstates?

If that were the case, perhaps Ohio would prefer US 23 not to have a 50-mile concurrency with I-75 / 475. Also, why not leave US 23 as an alternative to I-75 by leaving it as-is? US 40 parallels I-70 most of the way through the state, I don't see the problem with US 23 doing the same.

Also, personally, I think it's better to have routes going through the city (i.e. Columbus) over getting clumped on the beltway (i.e. Indianapolis).

In any case, the status quo is terrible because US 23 is an expressway (for the most part) throughout the rest of Ohio and a good chunk of Michigan (heck, almost all of it north of Georgia). Swapping route quality from the expressway you take a long distance to the parallel surface road, then back again makes zero sense. Even worse that AASHTO approved a move from its original surface route to another random-ass surface street. It shows that they weren't doing their jobs correctly since it is their job to ensure US highways follow the most efficient route between two points. Wyoming is forced to keep US 87 on an alignment that is permanently closed because AASHTO wants it moved to I-90 rather than WYO 193, the nearest parallel surface alignment. The same should have happened to US 23--Ohio should have been forced to either keep it on its original surface street alignment or move it to SR 15/I-75/I-475.

The status quo is not helpful to travellers between Flint/Ann Arbor and Columbus. The US highway serving the three cities should follow the best route possible, ensuring travellers don't have to keep track of staying on US 23 until SR 15, then taking SR 15 to I-75, then taking I-75 to I-475, then getting back on US 23. Why is that logical when it could all be US 23?

US 40 makes sense because it is consistent in quality as a parallel route. In no place is it the main route between major metropolitan areas, so leaving it is not unhelpful to motorists visiting who may not wish to rely on their GPS all the time. Unless Ohio does something like the Avenue of the Saints to assign one state route number to the entire Toledo-Columbus corridor, there's no comparison there.

Quote from: Molandfreak on June 28, 2024, 05:30:44 PM

Quote from: PColumbus73 on June 28, 2024, 04:51:17 PMI would be interested to hear how Ohio handles renumbering / realignments. Perhaps Ohio prefers not to have a concurrency between Interstates and non-interstates?

If that were the case, perhaps Ohio would prefer US 23 not to have a 50-mile concurrency with I-75 / 475. Also, why not leave US 23 as an alternative to I-75 by leaving it as-is? US 40 parallels I-70 most of the way through the state, I don't see the problem with US 23 doing the same.

Also, personally, I think it's better to have routes going through the city (i.e. Columbus) over getting clumped on the beltway (i.e. Indianapolis).

In any case, the status quo is terrible because US 23 is an expressway (for the most part) throughout the rest of Ohio and a good chunk of Michigan (heck, almost all of it north of Georgia). Swapping route quality from the expressway you take a long distance to the parallel surface road, then back again makes zero sense. Even worse that AASHTO approved a move from its original surface route to another random-ass surface street. It shows that they weren't doing their jobs correctly since it is their job to ensure US highways follow the most efficient route between two points. Wyoming is forced to keep US 87 on an alignment that is permanently closed because AASHTO wants it moved to I-90 rather than WYO 193, the nearest parallel surface alignment. The same should have happened to US 23--Ohio should have been forced to either keep it on its original surface street alignment or move it to SR 15/I-75/I-475.

The status quo is not helpful to travellers between Flint/Ann Arbor and Columbus. The US highway serving the three cities should follow the best route possible, ensuring travellers don't have to keep track of staying on US 23 until SR 15, then taking SR 15 to I-75, then taking I-75 to I-475, then getting back on US 23. Why is that logical when it could all be US 23?

US 40 makes sense because it is consistent in quality as a parallel route. In no place is it the main route between major metropolitan areas, so leaving it is not unhelpful to motorists visiting who may not wish to rely on their GPS all the time. Unless Ohio does something like the Avenue of the Saints to assign one state route number to the entire Toledo-Columbus corridor, there's no comparison there.

The two-lane portion of US 23 can still maintain a 55 MPH speed limit outside the cities. And yes, it is a four-lane highway for a healthy portion, but that doesn't dictate that the entire stretch has to be four lanes. And except for going through Fostoria, US 23 runs in a straight line between US 20 and OH 15. So even though that section is not an expressway, it's still a fairly straight and efficient route between Toledo and Columbus, drivers simply can't do 65-70 MPH (legally).

Regarding GPS users, it's my impression that they're listening more for the turn instructions. And it's not like OH 15 isn't well-signed for I-75 and Toledo, and for Columbus heading southbound. I don't really see anything that would shock regular drivers. In my neck of the woods, it doesn't shock or confuse anyone when they have to take SC 38 to connect between I-95 and US 501 to get to Myrtle Beach. In that example the four-lane 'expressway' defaults onto SC 38 to connect to I-95 the while US 501 route exits and reduces to a two-lane road. For both OH 15 and SC 38, it's not like anyone feels they're taking some random back road to get to where they are going.

Quote from: PColumbus73 on June 28, 2024, 10:09:23 PM

Quote from: Molandfreak on June 28, 2024, 05:30:44 PM

Quote from: PColumbus73 on June 28, 2024, 04:51:17 PMI would be interested to hear how Ohio handles renumbering / realignments. Perhaps Ohio prefers not to have a concurrency between Interstates and non-interstates?

If that were the case, perhaps Ohio would prefer US 23 not to have a 50-mile concurrency with I-75 / 475. Also, why not leave US 23 as an alternative to I-75 by leaving it as-is? US 40 parallels I-70 most of the way through the state, I don't see the problem with US 23 doing the same.

Also, personally, I think it's better to have routes going through the city (i.e. Columbus) over getting clumped on the beltway (i.e. Indianapolis).

In any case, the status quo is terrible because US 23 is an expressway (for the most part) throughout the rest of Ohio and a good chunk of Michigan (heck, almost all of it north of Georgia). Swapping route quality from the expressway you take a long distance to the parallel surface road, then back again makes zero sense. Even worse that AASHTO approved a move from its original surface route to another random-ass surface street. It shows that they weren't doing their jobs correctly since it is their job to ensure US highways follow the most efficient route between two points. Wyoming is forced to keep US 87 on an alignment that is permanently closed because AASHTO wants it moved to I-90 rather than WYO 193, the nearest parallel surface alignment. The same should have happened to US 23--Ohio should have been forced to either keep it on its original surface street alignment or move it to SR 15/I-75/I-475.

The status quo is not helpful to travellers between Flint/Ann Arbor and Columbus. The US highway serving the three cities should follow the best route possible, ensuring travellers don't have to keep track of staying on US 23 until SR 15, then taking SR 15 to I-75, then taking I-75 to I-475, then getting back on US 23. Why is that logical when it could all be US 23?

US 40 makes sense because it is consistent in quality as a parallel route. In no place is it the main route between major metropolitan areas, so leaving it is not unhelpful to motorists visiting who may not wish to rely on their GPS all the time. Unless Ohio does something like the Avenue of the Saints to assign one state route number to the entire Toledo-Columbus corridor, there's no comparison there.

The two-lane portion of US 23 can still maintain a 55 MPH speed limit outside the cities. And yes, it is a four-lane highway for a healthy portion, but that doesn't dictate that the entire stretch has to be four lanes. And except for going through Fostoria, US 23 runs in a straight line between US 20 and OH 15. So even though that section is not an expressway, it's still a fairly straight and efficient route between Toledo and Columbus, drivers simply can't do 65-70 MPH (legally).

Regarding GPS users, it's my impression that they're listening more for the turn instructions. And it's not like OH 15 isn't well-signed for I-75 and Toledo, and for Columbus heading southbound. I don't really see anything that would shock regular drivers. In my neck of the woods, it doesn't shock or confuse anyone when they have to take SC 38 to connect between I-95 and US 501 to get to Myrtle Beach. In that example the four-lane 'expressway' defaults onto SC 38 to connect to I-95 the while US 501 route exits and reduces to a two-lane road. For both OH 15 and SC 38, it's not like anyone feels they're taking some random back road to get to where they are going.

How is it helpful when there is a good chance that US 23 will return to being your "main" route later on? The higher route designation suddenly exits to some random back road, only to return to being important later. I can think of only one other US highway that does this within a 100-mile span, and it's US 218 along the Avenue of the Saints. But the main road is clearly defined along IA-27. SR-15 has an unrelated component west of Findlay and ends abruptly on the expressway, so it's significantly more to keep track of.

If the goal was to provide a decent two-lane road between Columbus and Toledo, why doesn't it serve Toledo proper until it returns to an expressway alignment along I-475?

Quote from: Molandfreak on June 28, 2024, 11:14:00 PM

Quote from: PColumbus73 on June 28, 2024, 10:09:23 PM

Quote from: Molandfreak on June 28, 2024, 05:30:44 PM

Quote from: PColumbus73 on June 28, 2024, 04:51:17 PMI would be interested to hear how Ohio handles renumbering / realignments. Perhaps Ohio prefers not to have a concurrency between Interstates and non-interstates?

If that were the case, perhaps Ohio would prefer US 23 not to have a 50-mile concurrency with I-75 / 475. Also, why not leave US 23 as an alternative to I-75 by leaving it as-is? US 40 parallels I-70 most of the way through the state, I don't see the problem with US 23 doing the same.

Also, personally, I think it's better to have routes going through the city (i.e. Columbus) over getting clumped on the beltway (i.e. Indianapolis).

In any case, the status quo is terrible because US 23 is an expressway (for the most part) throughout the rest of Ohio and a good chunk of Michigan (heck, almost all of it north of Georgia). Swapping route quality from the expressway you take a long distance to the parallel surface road, then back again makes zero sense. Even worse that AASHTO approved a move from its original surface route to another random-ass surface street. It shows that they weren't doing their jobs correctly since it is their job to ensure US highways follow the most efficient route between two points. Wyoming is forced to keep US 87 on an alignment that is permanently closed because AASHTO wants it moved to I-90 rather than WYO 193, the nearest parallel surface alignment. The same should have happened to US 23--Ohio should have been forced to either keep it on its original surface street alignment or move it to SR 15/I-75/I-475.

The status quo is not helpful to travellers between Flint/Ann Arbor and Columbus. The US highway serving the three cities should follow the best route possible, ensuring travellers don't have to keep track of staying on US 23 until SR 15, then taking SR 15 to I-75, then taking I-75 to I-475, then getting back on US 23. Why is that logical when it could all be US 23?

US 40 makes sense because it is consistent in quality as a parallel route. In no place is it the main route between major metropolitan areas, so leaving it is not unhelpful to motorists visiting who may not wish to rely on their GPS all the time. Unless Ohio does something like the Avenue of the Saints to assign one state route number to the entire Toledo-Columbus corridor, there's no comparison there.

The two-lane portion of US 23 can still maintain a 55 MPH speed limit outside the cities. And yes, it is a four-lane highway for a healthy portion, but that doesn't dictate that the entire stretch has to be four lanes. And except for going through Fostoria, US 23 runs in a straight line between US 20 and OH 15. So even though that section is not an expressway, it's still a fairly straight and efficient route between Toledo and Columbus, drivers simply can't do 65-70 MPH (legally).

Regarding GPS users, it's my impression that they're listening more for the turn instructions. And it's not like OH 15 isn't well-signed for I-75 and Toledo, and for Columbus heading southbound. I don't really see anything that would shock regular drivers. In my neck of the woods, it doesn't shock or confuse anyone when they have to take SC 38 to connect between I-95 and US 501 to get to Myrtle Beach. In that example the four-lane 'expressway' defaults onto SC 38 to connect to I-95 the while US 501 route exits and reduces to a two-lane road. For both OH 15 and SC 38, it's not like anyone feels they're taking some random back road to get to where they are going.

How is it helpful when there is a good chance that US 23 will return to being your "main" route later on? The higher route designation suddenly exits to some random back road, only to return to being important later. I can think of only one other US highway that does this within a 100-mile span, and it's US 218 along the Avenue of the Saints. But the main road is clearly defined along IA-27. SR-15 has an unrelated component west of Findlay and ends abruptly on the expressway, so it's significantly more to keep track of.

If the goal was to provide a decent two-lane road between Columbus and Toledo, why doesn't it serve Toledo proper until it returns to an expressway alignment along I-475?

The difference between a US route and a state route is that the US route is continuous across state lines. If the Interstates were never conceived, there might be more incentive to maintain US routes on the higher order roadway, but since they do, I think that allows the US routes to serve as intermediate arterials and fill a gap between the Interstates and state routes with the ability to adjust as the capacity commands, whether it be a two-lane road, or a multi-lane freeway or expressway. Currently, North Carolina is realigning some US routes (70 and 264 come to mind) off of limited access corridors, US 70 being rerouted through Greensboro, and US 264 to parallel the new I-587. For US 70, I think the reasoning is to make it easier to navigate through the city. Either way, since I-75 exists, and US 23 parallels it for 50 miles or so, I think it allows US 23 to serve as a local arterial while I-75 handles the through traffic.

And again, I think there is navigational value for allowing US routes to be maintained or reassigned off an Interstate, either for local use or as an incident bypass. It also becomes more cumbersome the more routes that get assigned to one alignment, I think that's another reason North Carolina as realigned some of their routes to older, two-lane alignments. Also, referencing back to I-465, which omits all the US and state routes that are concurrent with it, is there a record of someone following US 36, following the signs to use I-465, getting bamboozled because US 36 suddenly disappears on the beltway? For US and state routes that are concurrent to the Interstates, they often take a backseat anyway, so assuming US 23 was realigned, even as a secret concurrency, onto I-75/475, I don't think many would notice.

Lastly, just because US 23 doesn't enter the Toledo city limits doesn't mean it's not serving Toledo. I-70 doesn't enter the Dayton city limits, so does that mean I-70 doesn't serve Dayton at all?

Quote from: Molandfreak on June 28, 2024, 05:30:44 PMIn any case, the status quo is terrible because US 23 is an expressway (for the most part) throughout the rest of Ohio and a good chunk of Michigan (heck, almost all of it north of Georgia). Swapping route quality from the expressway you take a long distance to the parallel surface road, then back again makes zero sense. Even worse that AASHTO approved a move from its original surface route to another random-ass surface street. It shows that they weren't doing their jobs correctly since it is their job to ensure US highways follow the most efficient route between two points. Wyoming is forced to keep US 87 on an alignment that is permanently closed because AASHTO wants it moved to I-90 rather than WYO 193, the nearest parallel surface alignment. The same should have happened to US 23--Ohio should have been forced to either keep it on its original surface street alignment or move it to SR 15/I-75/I-475.

The status quo is not helpful to travellers between Flint/Ann Arbor and Columbus. The US highway serving the three cities should follow the best route possible, ensuring travellers don't have to keep track of staying on US 23 until SR 15, then taking SR 15 to I-75, then taking I-75 to I-475, then getting back on US 23. Why is that logical when it could all be US 23?

US 40 makes sense because it is consistent in quality as a parallel route. In no place is it the main route between major metropolitan areas, so leaving it is not unhelpful to motorists visiting who may not wish to rely on their GPS all the time. Unless Ohio does something like the Avenue of the Saints to assign one state route number to the entire Toledo-Columbus corridor, there's no comparison there.

Completely agree, and as I've said, US 33 should follow the same kind of routing. By virtue of being four laned from Columbus to I-77, it is a four-lane highway to Columbus and beyond. It makes absolutely no sense to go from four lane highway to surface roads nobody cares about within I-270 and then back to Highway again. These roads needs to be signed in a way that makes sense for the way people travel today. This is not 1950 where people are taking the 3C Highway to Cincinnati and Cleveland.

Quote from: PColumbus73 on June 29, 2024, 10:02:16 AMIf that were the case, perhaps Ohio would prefer US 23 not to have a 50-mile concurrency with I-75 / 475. Also, why not leave US 23 as an alternative to I-75 by leaving it as-is? US 40 parallels I-70 most of the way through the state, I don't see the problem with US 23 doing the same.

But it's simply isn't the way people travel. Everybody knows the route people would take from Columbus to Ann Arbor. That is US 23. There is no sense in cluttering things up by throwing Ohio 15 in the mix.

US 33 makes even less sense. Livingston Avenue being US 33 just does not work the way people travel today. Perhaps less of an argument on Dublin Road and Riverside Drive, but I would still opt for giving it a different number like Ohio 933 or something like that. Or just extend Ohio 257.

Running US-23 down I-75 to Findlay would be about a 35 mile concurrency with I-75. OH-15 east of I-75 has no purpose as a designation with a US-23 designation, and would go away. It's obvious the OH-15 designation is a placeholder, and the ultimate intent was for US-23 to continue to Findlay, then concurrent with I-75 to I-475. That is the undisputed through route, the highest-quality route between the two locations. There's no reason it shouldn't carry the US-23 designation.

Currently, the only reason for US-23 existence on the Woodville to Carey section is historical, and maintaining that path has resulted in some convoluted routing, with a short wrong-way concurrency with I-75 in Perrysburg and a longer concurrency with US-20 that serves no apparent purpose other than continuity. 

US-23 between US-20 and Carey is by no means a priority corridor. It's your typical low-traffic narrow 2-lane country roadway connecting a handful of small towns, with the traffic counts to match. Particularly since the six-laning of I-75 between Findlay and I-475, the only logical reason to choose US-23 past Carey would be a major traffic incident on I-75.

Quote from: wanderer2575 on June 23, 2024, 05:53:20 PM

Quote from: TempoNick on June 23, 2024, 05:39:48 PM

Quote from: wanderer2575 on June 23, 2024, 05:31:55 PMThat extension routing makes less sense than the current routing of US-23.  You're not helping the argument to eliminate an illogical routing by proposing an even more ludicrous one.

There is nothing at all illogical about it. For all intents and purposes, Ohio 15 and US 23 are the same highway. A highway that appears to the driver as a single highway should have a uniform number rather than switching numbers for no apparent reason, not to mention that it is a four lane highway through most of the state.

US 23 to I-75, then concurrent with I-75 until I-475 W. Problem solved.

I don't argue against that at all.  I argue that the suggested extension routing of US-224 (to keep a US route on the existing US-23 alignment) makes even less sense than the current US-23 routing.  "For all intents and purposes, Ohio 15 and US 23 are the same highway."  I agree.  Are you going to say that I-475 <-> I-75 <-> I-280 also is, for all intents and purposes, one highway?  (Although an interesting side effect is that the I-280 and OH-420 designations could be eliminated.)

I agree extending OH-420 south makes the most sense; Fostoria doesn't need a US-highway designation. But clearly *something* is forcing Ohio to keep the existing illogical US-23 routing. I'm trying to come up with ideas so Ohio can fix it.

Looking over an ODOT map from 1966 (https://www.oldmapsonline.org/en/Lucas_County,_Ohio?gid=2959dca8-9d79-5d71-914b-651274cf549a#position=9.2516/41.417/-83.652&year=1966), it looks like OH-199 and US-23 subsequently flip-flopped designations north of Fostoria, AFTER the OH-15 expressway was designated between Findlay and Carey. That lends even more credence to the idea that ODOT wanted to reroute US-23 out of Fostoria but couldn't. I suspect AASHTO is that reason - that they want to maintain a US-highway designation in Fostoria. Bringing down US-223 would be the least confusing way to do it.

A single route designation guiding folks around Toledo's north and east sides doesn't exist now. Following I-475 north (east) to I-75 north (east) to I-280 south is the most direct path to the eastbound Ohio Turnpike for folks coming from Michigan. It makes more sense than extending another US-route designation down the west side and along US-20.

If I have to maintain a US-highway designation in Fostoria, I might as well give it a navigational purpose. Currently it takes 5 different route designations to navigate from Carey around the north and east sides of Toledo. Giving that path one designation would aid navigation, and I'm trading worthless concurrencies for one that's slightly less worthless. Oh, and now the currently 46-mile long US-223 can be a 118-mile US-223.

Quote from: PColumbus73 on June 29, 2024, 10:02:16 AMLastly, just because US 23 doesn't enter the Toledo city limits doesn't mean it's not serving Toledo. I-70 doesn't enter the Dayton city limits, so does that mean I-70 doesn't serve Dayton at all?

No. Taking a freeway/expressway long distance is different from a parallel surface street. Close enough to the core city is good enough for freeways to "serve" the city, because there is a clear purpose of the route to maintain a consistent route standard. What US 23 currently does is go on a random tangent along an unimportant back road, stop short of an important city, then cut over to a brief wrong-way concurrency with I-75 before reassuming the important route.

Outside of moving US 23, the next-best scenario for the corridor would be to axe SR 15 east of I-75, renumber current SR 63 and run a new SR 63 "Central Ohio expressway" along the entire expressway. This is essentially what SR 32 does in relation to US 50, and I have no problem with it since each route has a clearly defined purpose, there are no highways ending abruptly in the middle of an expressway corridor, and SR 32 does not exist outside of the expressway alignment. But that's fictional.

Quote from: JREwing78 on June 29, 2024, 03:53:59 PM

Quote from: wanderer2575 on June 23, 2024, 05:53:20 PM

Quote from: TempoNick on June 23, 2024, 05:39:48 PM

Quote from: wanderer2575 on June 23, 2024, 05:31:55 PMThat extension routing makes less sense than the current routing of US-23.  You're not helping the argument to eliminate an illogical routing by proposing an even more ludicrous one.

There is nothing at all illogical about it. For all intents and purposes, Ohio 15 and US 23 are the same highway. A highway that appears to the driver as a single highway should have a uniform number rather than switching numbers for no apparent reason, not to mention that it is a four lane highway through most of the state.

US 23 to I-75, then concurrent with I-75 until I-475 W. Problem solved.

I don't argue against that at all.  I argue that the suggested extension routing of US-224 (to keep a US route on the existing US-23 alignment) makes even less sense than the current US-23 routing.  "For all intents and purposes, Ohio 15 and US 23 are the same highway."  I agree.  Are you going to say that I-475 <-> I-75 <-> I-280 also is, for all intents and purposes, one highway?  (Although an interesting side effect is that the I-280 and OH-420 designations could be eliminated.)

I agree extending OH-420 south makes the most sense; Fostoria doesn't need a US-highway designation. But clearly *something* is forcing Ohio to keep the existing illogical US-23 routing. I'm trying to come up with ideas so Ohio can fix it.

Looking over an ODOT map from 1966 (https://www.oldmapsonline.org/en/Lucas_County,_Ohio?gid=2959dca8-9d79-5d71-914b-651274cf549a#position=9.2516/41.417/-83.652&year=1966), it looks like OH-199 and US-23 subsequently flip-flopped designations north of Fostoria, AFTER the OH-15 expressway was designated between Findlay and Carey. That lends even more credence to the idea that ODOT wanted to reroute US-23 out of Fostoria but couldn't. I suspect AASHTO is that reason - that they want to maintain a US-highway designation in Fostoria. Bringing down US-223 would be the least confusing way to do it.

A single route designation guiding folks around Toledo's north and east sides doesn't exist now. Following I-475 north (east) to I-75 north (east) to I-280 south is the most direct path to the eastbound Ohio Turnpike for folks coming from Michigan. It makes more sense than extending another US-route designation down the west side and along US-20.

If I have to maintain a US-highway designation in Fostoria, I might as well give it a navigational purpose. Currently it takes 5 different route designations to navigate from Carey around the north and east sides of Toledo. Giving that path one designation would aid navigation, and I'm trading worthless concurrencies for one that's slightly less worthless. Oh, and now the currently 46-mile long US-223 can be a 118-mile US-223.

If that is what actually happened, AASHTO officials still weren't doing their jobs correctly by not proposing a viable alternative for the thru route. This is what alternate routes are for. Heck, I would even be ok with a long US 23 Business serving Fostoria.

Has ODOT considered that the Columbus-Waldo connection could just as easily - perhaps even more easily - be made via I-71 and US 36, either with upgrades to US 36 or an entirely new alignment between I-71 and Waldo? I would think that would remove all the true long distance traffic from US 23 (including Columbus-Toledo, except the parts of the Columbus metro north of I-270), and the existing route would function fine for the local and short distance traffic.

Quote from: webny99 on June 29, 2024, 07:34:01 PMHas ODOT considered that the Columbus-Waldo connection could just as easily - perhaps even more easily - be made via I-71 and US 36, either with upgrades to US 36 or an entirely new alignment between I-71 and Waldo? I would think that would remove all the true long distance traffic from US 23 (including Columbus-Toledo, except the parts of the Columbus metro north of I-270), and the existing route would function fine for the local and short distance traffic.

Yes. It's been considered on multiple occasions.

In my mailbox this week:

Join us for Route 23 Connect public meetings!

ODOT is hosting public meetings to share results of evaluation of project concepts for improvements along U.S. 23 and get your input. These concepts, which were introduced at the Fall 2023 public meetings, range from smaller changes that improve existing stop-and-go conditions, to larger changes that would create a more freeway-like condition. The concepts use combinations of improvement options that aim to balance more reliable travel times with maintaining local access points along U.S. 23. We hope to gather your feedback on:

    Which of the improvements makes sense to you and should be a priority?
    Which metrics are the most important to you?
    Is there other information you feel should be considered when selecting the concepts to move forward?

Project Background

The Route 23 Connect Study focuses on improvements along the U.S. 23 corridor between I-270 and Waldo. This study has developed concepts which are being evaluated to guide a corridor action plan that will identify specific projects that can be advanced into project development. The study concepts range in size and scope, aiming to provide safer and more efficient travel, including improved travel time reliability for through traffic.

Route 23 already has 30% more traffic than the roadway was designed to accommodate, leading to increased congestion, unpredictable travel times, bottlenecks, and higher crash rates. This study will support Columbus as a national logistics hub by strengthening connection and access to northwest Ohio, Michigan, and Canada.

Additional project information and meeting materials are located on the project website here: publicinput.com/23Connect

In-person Meetings

In order to ensure all interested members of the public are able to participate, ODOT has scheduled six in-person meetings over a two-week time period. The meetings will be hosted in an open-house format with no formal presentation. The same information will be available at all in-person meetings. Please stop by to provide input at any time during the meeting hours indicated.

In-Person Meetings 1 & 2

When: Tuesday, August 6, 2024

Time: 12:00PM - 2:00 PM & 5:00 PM - 7:00 PM

Location: Nationwide Hotel and Conference Center, North Carolina Building*,

100 Green Meadows Drive, Lewis Center, OH 43035

* Event venue at SR 750 entrance nearest to U.S. 23

In-Person Meetings 3 & 4

When: Wednesday, August 14, 2024

Time: 12:00 PM - 2:00 PM & 5:00 PM - 7:00 PM

Location: Delaware County Fairgrounds, Ag Building

236 Pennsylvania Avenue, Delaware, OH 43015

In-Person Meetings 5 & 6

When: Thursday, August 15, 2024

Time: 12:00 PM - 2:00 PM & 5:00 PM - 7:00 PM

Location: Brookshire Event Venue,

405 Greif Parkway, Delaware, Ohio 43015

Online Q&A Sessions

All materials displayed at the public meeting will also be available on the website. If you are unable to attend an in-person meeting, ODOT will host two online question & answer sessions as well. A brief presentation will be given at the beginning of each online session. Following this presentation, the project team will answer questions from the public. Online session information is as follows:

Online Session 1
When: Wednesday, August 7, 2024

Time: 12:00PM
Location: publicinput.com/23Connect | Join by phone at: (855) 925-2801, code: 4637

Online Session 2
When: Tuesday, August 13, 2024
Time: 6:00PM
Location: publicinput.com/23Connect | Join by phone at: (855) 925-2801, code: 4637

Individuals who require interpretation services or a reasonable accommodation to participate in these meetings should contact Hannah Salem at 740-833-8268 no later than July 30, 2024. Public participation is solicited without regard to race, color, sex, age, national origin, or disability.

Learn more and submit comments online!

Project information, meeting materials, and an online comment form are located on the project website: publicinput.com/23Connect

Questions and comments can be submitted on the project website and by mail, email, or phone.

Please submit your comments by Monday, September 16, 2024 to be considered during this phase of the study.
   
   
Sent on behalf of Ohio DOT by PublicInput
2409 Crabtree Blvd, Suite 107, Raleigh, NC 27604

   

Eesh.  Section 106 and 4(f) will be a bear for this project (historical resources and parkland, e.g.).

I think I like the "most freeway like" proposals from I-70 through about Home Road. Just shut off all those secondary roads and feed them through service roads or through some other way.

Quote from: Rothman on July 07, 2024, 11:34:37 PMEesh.  Section 106 and 4(f) will be a bear for this project (historical resources and parkland, e.g.).

It's beginning to look a lot like the US 31 solution in the Indianapolis area. I don't know if it's good or bad to have an overpass where a traffic light used to be if you are a property owner. The property owners who are losing street level access, aren't going to be happy. We'll see I guess.

There is also some interesting utility work in that area, particularly with the sewer lines. I know Sheetz had to put in a pump station when they opened their new store.

Quote from: JREwing78 on June 29, 2024, 03:53:59 PM

Quote from: wanderer2575 on June 23, 2024, 05:53:20 PM

Quote from: TempoNick on June 23, 2024, 05:39:48 PM

Quote from: wanderer2575 on June 23, 2024, 05:31:55 PMThat extension routing makes less sense than the current routing of US-23.  You're not helping the argument to eliminate an illogical routing by proposing an even more ludicrous one.

There is nothing at all illogical about it. For all intents and purposes, Ohio 15 and US 23 are the same highway. A highway that appears to the driver as a single highway should have a uniform number rather than switching numbers for no apparent reason, not to mention that it is a four lane highway through most of the state.

US 23 to I-75, then concurrent with I-75 until I-475 W. Problem solved.

I don't argue against that at all.  I argue that the suggested extension routing of US-224 (to keep a US route on the existing US-23 alignment) makes even less sense than the current US-23 routing.  "For all intents and purposes, Ohio 15 and US 23 are the same highway."  I agree.  Are you going to say that I-475 <-> I-75 <-> I-280 also is, for all intents and purposes, one highway?  (Although an interesting side effect is that the I-280 and OH-420 designations could be eliminated.)

I agree extending OH-420 south makes the most sense; Fostoria doesn't need a US-highway designation. But clearly *something* is forcing Ohio to keep the existing illogical US-23 routing. I'm trying to come up with ideas so Ohio can fix it.

Looking over an ODOT map from 1966 (https://www.oldmapsonline.org/en/Lucas_County,_Ohio?gid=2959dca8-9d79-5d71-914b-651274cf549a#position=9.2516/41.417/-83.652&year=1966), it looks like OH-199 and US-23 subsequently flip-flopped designations north of Fostoria, AFTER the OH-15 expressway was designated between Findlay and Carey. That lends even more credence to the idea that ODOT wanted to reroute US-23 out of Fostoria but couldn't. I suspect AASHTO is that reason - that they want to maintain a US-highway designation in Fostoria. Bringing down US-223 would be the least confusing way to do it.

A single route designation guiding folks around Toledo's north and east sides doesn't exist now. Following I-475 north (east) to I-75 north (east) to I-280 south is the most direct path to the eastbound Ohio Turnpike for folks coming from Michigan. It makes more sense than extending another US-route designation down the west side and along US-20.

If I have to maintain a US-highway designation in Fostoria, I might as well give it a navigational purpose. Currently it takes 5 different route designations to navigate from Carey around the north and east sides of Toledo. Giving that path one designation would aid navigation, and I'm trading worthless concurrencies for one that's slightly less worthless. Oh, and now the currently 46-mile long US-223 can be a 118-mile US-223.

Many of the State and US routes in and around Toledo have flip-flopped alignments  over the decades (like the SR 199/US 23 flip flop) -- the biggest, and most recent was the Toledo reroutings of 1986, where pretty much all non-interstate numbered routes were either re-routed (SR 120), swapped (portions of US 24 and SR 25 traded alignments), truncated (US 223) or extended (SR 65 & SR 51).  US 20 was left unaffected as was SR 246 and SR 420.

So any changing of numbered route alignments is somewhat normal for that area.

Here's a very simple solution for the SR-15 debacle -- move US 23 to the current SR-15 alignment, then duplex 23 along I-75  to I 475...

Then extend **US 68** from it's current northern terminus in Findlay (at the I 75/SR 15 interchange), east along the relocated US 23 to Carey, then US 68 would follow the old 23 alignment north to US 20, then replace the short SR 420 segment, ending at the Ohio Turnpike/I 80/I 90.

For those of you who didn't know, at one time US 68 ran all the way up to, and ended in, Toledo. Now it returns (close) to it's original terminus town.

US-23 is now on it's most logical routing on all limited access highways from Carey to Perrysburg and Fostoria still gets a US route (68) running through it. US 68 also becomes a "bypass route" of sorts for those travelers wanting to avoid I-75 to access the eastern fringe of Toledo and points east.

I would put in a rail commuter service instead. Marion>Columbus, with stops at Waldo, Delaware, OSU, Fairgrounds and the Convention Center/Nationwide Arena.

There can be both. But I'm a little disappointed that right-in and right-out intersections are being considered in the ultimate build-out scenario.

Quote from: thenetwork on July 19, 2024, 08:55:52 PM

Quote from: JREwing78 on June 29, 2024, 03:53:59 PM

Quote from: wanderer2575 on June 23, 2024, 05:53:20 PM

Quote from: TempoNick on June 23, 2024, 05:39:48 PM

Quote from: wanderer2575 on June 23, 2024, 05:31:55 PMThat extension routing makes less sense than the current routing of US-23.  You're not helping the argument to eliminate an illogical routing by proposing an even more ludicrous one.

There is nothing at all illogical about it. For all intents and purposes, Ohio 15 and US 23 are the same highway. A highway that appears to the driver as a single highway should have a uniform number rather than switching numbers for no apparent reason, not to mention that it is a four lane highway through most of the state.

US 23 to I-75, then concurrent with I-75 until I-475 W. Problem solved.

I don't argue against that at all.  I argue that the suggested extension routing of US-224 (to keep a US route on the existing US-23 alignment) makes even less sense than the current US-23 routing.  "For all intents and purposes, Ohio 15 and US 23 are the same highway."  I agree.  Are you going to say that I-475 <-> I-75 <-> I-280 also is, for all intents and purposes, one highway?  (Although an interesting side effect is that the I-280 and OH-420 designations could be eliminated.)

I agree extending OH-420 south makes the most sense; Fostoria doesn't need a US-highway designation. But clearly *something* is forcing Ohio to keep the existing illogical US-23 routing. I'm trying to come up with ideas so Ohio can fix it.

Looking over an ODOT map from 1966 (https://www.oldmapsonline.org/en/Lucas_County,_Ohio?gid=2959dca8-9d79-5d71-914b-651274cf549a#position=9.2516/41.417/-83.652&year=1966), it looks like OH-199 and US-23 subsequently flip-flopped designations north of Fostoria, AFTER the OH-15 expressway was designated between Findlay and Carey. That lends even more credence to the idea that ODOT wanted to reroute US-23 out of Fostoria but couldn't. I suspect AASHTO is that reason - that they want to maintain a US-highway designation in Fostoria. Bringing down US-223 would be the least confusing way to do it.

A single route designation guiding folks around Toledo's north and east sides doesn't exist now. Following I-475 north (east) to I-75 north (east) to I-280 south is the most direct path to the eastbound Ohio Turnpike for folks coming from Michigan. It makes more sense than extending another US-route designation down the west side and along US-20.

If I have to maintain a US-highway designation in Fostoria, I might as well give it a navigational purpose. Currently it takes 5 different route designations to navigate from Carey around the north and east sides of Toledo. Giving that path one designation would aid navigation, and I'm trading worthless concurrencies for one that's slightly less worthless. Oh, and now the currently 46-mile long US-223 can be a 118-mile US-223.

Many of the State and US routes in and around Toledo have flip-flopped alignments  over the decades (like the SR 199/US 23 flip flop) -- the biggest, and most recent was the Toledo reroutings of 1986, where pretty much all non-interstate numbered routes were either re-routed (SR 120), swapped (portions of US 24 and SR 25 traded alignments), truncated (US 223) or extended (SR 65 & SR 51).  US 20 was left unaffected as was SR 246 and SR 420.

So any changing of numbered route alignments is somewhat normal for that area.

Here's a very simple solution for the SR-15 debacle -- move US 23 to the current SR-15 alignment, then duplex 23 along I-75  to I 475...

Then extend **US 68** from it's current northern terminus in Findlay (at the I 75/SR 15 interchange), east along the relocated US 23 to Carey, then US 68 would follow the old 23 alignment north to US 20, then replace the short SR 420 segment, ending at the Ohio Turnpike/I 80/I 90.

For those of you who didn't know, at one time US 68 ran all the way up to, and ended in, Toledo. Now it returns (close) to it's original terminus town.

US-23 is now on it's most logical routing on all limited access highways from Carey to Perrysburg and Fostoria still gets a US route (68) running through it. US 68 also becomes a "bypass route" of sorts for those travelers wanting to avoid I-75 to access the eastern fringe of Toledo and points east.

As a nearly 20-year resident of NW Ohio, I can think of not a single person who is confused with the current numbering. Everyone knows SR 15 is the way to Columbus. Regarding US 23 through Fostoria, I've heard over the years that pressure has been strong to maintain the US route through Fostoria; we should also think about parallel, emergency routes -- US 23 *does* serve as an unsigned alternate between about Carey and Toledo, particularly between Cygnet and Findlay, where the old US 25 was not expanded to four lanes as it was north of Cygnet, through Bowling Green.

Quote from: westerninterloper on July 24, 2024, 11:02:08 AM

Quote from: thenetwork on July 19, 2024, 08:55:52 PM

Quote from: JREwing78 on June 29, 2024, 03:53:59 PM

Quote from: wanderer2575 on June 23, 2024, 05:53:20 PM

Quote from: TempoNick on June 23, 2024, 05:39:48 PM

Quote from: wanderer2575 on June 23, 2024, 05:31:55 PMThat extension routing makes less sense than the current routing of US-23.  You're not helping the argument to eliminate an illogical routing by proposing an even more ludicrous one.

There is nothing at all illogical about it. For all intents and purposes, Ohio 15 and US 23 are the same highway. A highway that appears to the driver as a single highway should have a uniform number rather than switching numbers for no apparent reason, not to mention that it is a four lane highway through most of the state.

US 23 to I-75, then concurrent with I-75 until I-475 W. Problem solved.

I don't argue against that at all.  I argue that the suggested extension routing of US-224 (to keep a US route on the existing US-23 alignment) makes even less sense than the current US-23 routing.  "For all intents and purposes, Ohio 15 and US 23 are the same highway."  I agree.  Are you going to say that I-475 <-> I-75 <-> I-280 also is, for all intents and purposes, one highway?  (Although an interesting side effect is that the I-280 and OH-420 designations could be eliminated.)

I agree extending OH-420 south makes the most sense; Fostoria doesn't need a US-highway designation. But clearly *something* is forcing Ohio to keep the existing illogical US-23 routing. I'm trying to come up with ideas so Ohio can fix it.

Looking over an ODOT map from 1966 (https://www.oldmapsonline.org/en/Lucas_County,_Ohio?gid=2959dca8-9d79-5d71-914b-651274cf549a#position=9.2516/41.417/-83.652&year=1966), it looks like OH-199 and US-23 subsequently flip-flopped designations north of Fostoria, AFTER the OH-15 expressway was designated between Findlay and Carey. That lends even more credence to the idea that ODOT wanted to reroute US-23 out of Fostoria but couldn't. I suspect AASHTO is that reason - that they want to maintain a US-highway designation in Fostoria. Bringing down US-223 would be the least confusing way to do it.

A single route designation guiding folks around Toledo's north and east sides doesn't exist now. Following I-475 north (east) to I-75 north (east) to I-280 south is the most direct path to the eastbound Ohio Turnpike for folks coming from Michigan. It makes more sense than extending another US-route designation down the west side and along US-20.

If I have to maintain a US-highway designation in Fostoria, I might as well give it a navigational purpose. Currently it takes 5 different route designations to navigate from Carey around the north and east sides of Toledo. Giving that path one designation would aid navigation, and I'm trading worthless concurrencies for one that's slightly less worthless. Oh, and now the currently 46-mile long US-223 can be a 118-mile US-223.

Many of the State and US routes in and around Toledo have flip-flopped alignments  over the decades (like the SR 199/US 23 flip flop) -- the biggest, and most recent was the Toledo reroutings of 1986, where pretty much all non-interstate numbered routes were either re-routed (SR 120), swapped (portions of US 24 and SR 25 traded alignments), truncated (US 223) or extended (SR 65 & SR 51).  US 20 was left unaffected as was SR 246 and SR 420.

So any changing of numbered route alignments is somewhat normal for that area.

Here's a very simple solution for the SR-15 debacle -- move US 23 to the current SR-15 alignment, then duplex 23 along I-75  to I 475...

Then extend **US 68** from it's current northern terminus in Findlay (at the I 75/SR 15 interchange), east along the relocated US 23 to Carey, then US 68 would follow the old 23 alignment north to US 20, then replace the short SR 420 segment, ending at the Ohio Turnpike/I 80/I 90.

For those of you who didn't know, at one time US 68 ran all the way up to, and ended in, Toledo. Now it returns (close) to it's original terminus town.

US-23 is now on it's most logical routing on all limited access highways from Carey to Perrysburg and Fostoria still gets a US route (68) running through it. US 68 also becomes a "bypass route" of sorts for those travelers wanting to avoid I-75 to access the eastern fringe of Toledo and points east.

As a nearly 20-year resident of NW Ohio, I can think of not a single person who is confused with the current numbering. Everyone knows SR 15 is the way to Columbus. Regarding US 23 through Fostoria, I've heard over the years that pressure has been strong to maintain the US route through Fostoria; we should also think about parallel, emergency routes -- US 23 *does* serve as an unsigned alternate between about Carey and Toledo, particularly between Cygnet and Findlay, where the old US 25 was not expanded to four lanes as it was north of Cygnet, through Bowling Green.

A potential rerouting wouldn't be for the benefit of locals, just visitors. Whatever, if Fostoria needs a US highway, they can have US 23A, US 23 Business, or US 223. Mainline 23 should be consistent in quality.

Quote from: seicer on July 24, 2024, 09:48:21 AMThere can be both. But I'm a little disappointed that right-in and right-out intersections are being considered in the ultimate build-out scenario.

There can, however, by leaving the traffic lights in on US-23 north, and not converting them makes the train service more desirable.

Sometime DOT's will forgo large expensive expansions of existing highways in order to build up transit demand.

Spending billions to upgrade an urban highway to get maybe on average 7-12 minutes of travel improvement seems to be a difficult trade off. So let demand shift to transit over the next 20-25 years, then if demand still warrants it, upgrade the highway in parts.

Quote from: westerninterloper on July 24, 2024, 11:02:08 AMAs a nearly 20-year resident of NW Ohio, I can think of not a single person who is confused with the current numbering. Everyone knows SR 15 is the way to Columbus. Regarding US 23 through Fostoria, I've heard over the years that pressure has been strong to maintain the US route through Fostoria; we should also think about parallel, emergency routes -- US 23 *does* serve as an unsigned alternate between about Carey and Toledo, particularly between Cygnet and Findlay, where the old US 25 was not expanded to four lanes as it was north of Cygnet, through Bowling Green.

Of course it's not confusing for you. It's for someone driving in from Michigan or Indiana or Iowa or wherever else are coming from. It's confusing for them. That's who you're designing it for, not to mention that it's simply bad form.

Or, if they want to be stubborn about it, they could just sign everything from Carey to Columbus as Ohio 15 running concurrently with US 23. Not a great solution, but at least there will be consistent numbering.

Quote from: TempoNick on July 26, 2024, 03:36:30 AMIt's for someone driving in from Michigan or Indiana or Iowa or wherever else are coming from

And unless they're too dumb to properly read a map or use GPS, they're not confused either.

Just like people coming up I-75 from Ohio headed to "Up North" Michigan can figure out that taking US-23 from Toledo to Flint is the better route than staying on I-75.

Quote from: GaryV on July 26, 2024, 07:35:51 AM

Quote from: TempoNick on July 26, 2024, 03:36:30 AMIt's for someone driving in from Michigan or Indiana or Iowa or wherever else are coming from

And unless they're too dumb to properly read a map or use GPS, they're not confused either.

Just like people coming up I-75 from Ohio headed to "Up North" Michigan can figure out that taking US-23 from Toledo to Flint is the better route than staying on I-75.

Not everyone wants to rely on their GPS 100% of the time, or is able to in the case of foreign visitors.

Quote from: GaryV on July 26, 2024, 07:35:51 AM

Quote from: TempoNick on July 26, 2024, 03:36:30 AMIt's for someone driving in from Michigan or Indiana or Iowa or wherever else are coming from

And unless they're too dumb to properly read a map or use GPS, they're not confused either.

Just like people coming up I-75 from Ohio headed to "Up North" Michigan can figure out that taking US-23 from Toledo to Flint is the better route than staying on I-75.

We're not all geniuses like you. A lot of us follow the general direction and depend on the signs to get us there. That 15 is enough to put a doubt in the mind of a traveler who's not familiar with the area.

Engineers should have more pride in their work than to have sloppy numbering like this. It's not only third rate engineering, it's very bad form.

Seriously, what even is the point of having highway numbers or AASHTO if they can go in random, unimportant tangents like this for no good reason? They are supposed to be helpful guides for motorists to navigate without having to rely on external devices or maps. We might as well just go back to using auto trails.

Quote from: TempoNick on July 26, 2024, 01:20:50 PM

Quote from: GaryV on July 26, 2024, 07:35:51 AM

Quote from: TempoNick on July 26, 2024, 03:36:30 AMIt's for someone driving in from Michigan or Indiana or Iowa or wherever else are coming from

And unless they're too dumb to properly read a map or use GPS, they're not confused either.

Just like people coming up I-75 from Ohio headed to "Up North" Michigan can figure out that taking US-23 from Toledo to Flint is the better route than staying on I-75.

We're not all geniuses like you. A lot of us follow the general direction and depend on the signs to get us there. That 15 is enough to put a doubt in the mind of a traveler who's not familiar with the area.

Engineers should have more pride in their work than to have sloppy numbering like this. It's not only third rate engineering, it's very bad form.

If they can't follow maps or GPS, maybe they can follow signs.
Like this one:  https://maps.app.goo.gl/kUKGaExiugACqhGq6
Followed by this one: https://maps.app.goo.gl/gcK3EsdfDj4jhyo17

If they don't know the way from Columbus to Toledo, maybe they shouldn't be trying to drive it.

When the US system was created nearly a century ago, the current routing of US-23 was the shortest and fastest way between Columbus and Toledo. Now it's still shortest, but not fastest.

Quote from: GaryV on July 26, 2024, 02:37:58 PM

Quote from: TempoNick on July 26, 2024, 01:20:50 PM

Quote from: GaryV on July 26, 2024, 07:35:51 AM

Quote from: TempoNick on July 26, 2024, 03:36:30 AMIt's for someone driving in from Michigan or Indiana or Iowa or wherever else are coming from

And unless they're too dumb to properly read a map or use GPS, they're not confused either.

Just like people coming up I-75 from Ohio headed to "Up North" Michigan can figure out that taking US-23 from Toledo to Flint is the better route than staying on I-75.

We're not all geniuses like you. A lot of us follow the general direction and depend on the signs to get us there. That 15 is enough to put a doubt in the mind of a traveler who's not familiar with the area.

Engineers should have more pride in their work than to have sloppy numbering like this. It's not only third rate engineering, it's very bad form.

If they can't follow maps or GPS, maybe they can follow signs.
Like this one:  https://maps.app.goo.gl/kUKGaExiugACqhGq6
Followed by this one: https://maps.app.goo.gl/gcK3EsdfDj4jhyo17

If they don't know the way from Columbus to Toledo, maybe they shouldn't be trying to drive it.

When the US system was created nearly a century ago, the current routing of US-23 was the shortest and fastest way between Columbus and Toledo. Now it's still shortest, but not fastest.

Nope, now SR 199 has taken over the original route of US 23. US 23 is on a random back road that has no historical relevance, not that historical relevance has any meaning to today's traffic patterns whatsoever.

Why do you have to be so pretentious about your ability to read maps? Why shouldn't these highway numbers be a helpful supplement and follow the traffic patterns of today?

If someone doesn't know how to read a map, how do they know which number to follow?

And I wasn't aware of the Ohio 199 routing being the original US-23, sorry. But that route wouldn't make any more sense in today's travels either.

Quote from: GaryV on July 26, 2024, 02:37:58 PM

Quote from: TempoNick on July 26, 2024, 01:20:50 PM

Quote from: GaryV on July 26, 2024, 07:35:51 AM

Quote from: TempoNick on July 26, 2024, 03:36:30 AMIt's for someone driving in from Michigan or Indiana or Iowa or wherever else are coming from

And unless they're too dumb to properly read a map or use GPS, they're not confused either.

Just like people coming up I-75 from Ohio headed to "Up North" Michigan can figure out that taking US-23 from Toledo to Flint is the better route than staying on I-75.

We're not all geniuses like you. A lot of us follow the general direction and depend on the signs to get us there. That 15 is enough to put a doubt in the mind of a traveler who's not familiar with the area.

Engineers should have more pride in their work than to have sloppy numbering like this. It's not only third rate engineering, it's very bad form.

If they can't follow maps or GPS, maybe they can follow signs.
Like this one:  https://maps.app.goo.gl/kUKGaExiugACqhGq6
Followed by this one: https://maps.app.goo.gl/gcK3EsdfDj4jhyo17

If they don't know the way from Columbus to Toledo, maybe they shouldn't be trying to drive it.

When the US system was created nearly a century ago, the current routing of US-23 was the shortest and fastest way between Columbus and Toledo. Now it's still shortest, but not fastest.

This is the same state as this sign (https://www.google.com/maps/@41.4929415,-81.6807987,3a,45y,284.93h,90.95t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1skF5cF0j6CGDEK_gGP1DASQ!2e0!7i16384!8i8192?authuser=0&coh=205409&entry=ttu), which sends motorists on a wild goose chase through downtown Cleveland.  Much faster to continue straight to Carnegie and loop around to the ramp accessible only from the other direction of 9th.

If humans were 100% logical like computers and not subject to grogginess or wandering thoughts, maybe the "just read the map correctly" argument would have some merit. Actually, if we were 100% logical, this would never fly in anyone's mind and 23 would already follow SR 15 and I-75.

The fact that some hand-holding still needs to be done with the "15 north to 75" signs is pretty much a tacit admission by the DOT that the way the highways are aligned makes no sense. Put yourself in the mindset of a low-income motorist from Kentucky with a limited data plan on their phone, or a foreigner who wants to rent a car and explore this part of the country without racking up exorbitant roaming charges--they just want to have a nice vacation to northern Michigan and follow the best route possible. With just two exceptions up to this point--I-270 to bypass Columbus and US 23 Truck to bypass Portsmouth, their best route has followed US 23 the entire time. At this point, would this motorist think the current arrangement makes any sense? Absolutely not. Something like this would get the point across in a much more direct way:
(https://i.imgur.com/iLIwuQr.jpeg)

Or, you could substitute US 23A with US 23 Business, US 223, SR 420, or whatever else you want. Go nuts with it. The point is that this is significantly less confusing to these sets of motorists who are unfamiliar with the area. An alternate doesn't even have to be signed with this amount of fanfare; ODOT posts an alternate route for I-76/US 224 in Akron (https://www.google.com/maps/@41.1194679,-81.6422135,3a,15y,248.74h,99.6t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1s5krSf2NdoWcxiLvYinOxNA!2e0!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fpanoid%3D5krSf2NdoWcxiLvYinOxNA%26cb_client%3Dmaps_sv.share%26w%3D900%26h%3D600%26yaw%3D248.73656837074526%26pitch%3D-9.598225410305432%26thumbfov%3D90!7i16384!8i8192?authuser=0&coh=205410&entry=ttu), which amusingly is picked up by Google Maps even though it is obviously not the primary highway number. They can and should do the same to provide an alternate route for I-75/US 23 in this area, if it is needed.

There is a time and a place where US Highways are useful as alternate routes, if they are consistent in quality. Nevada had the right idea to move US 395 to I-580, because that way it is consistent in quality as the thru north-south route people take. There is also a signed alternate that is useful for motorists in the event of an emergency or if they simply choose not to take the freeway--the point is that the thru route is very clearly designated and consistently numbered.

Excellent post. I am thinking about sending it to the Ohio House of Representatives Transportation Committee members in the affected districts. This really is stupid, shoddy, third rate and something really does need to be done about it.

Quote from: Molandfreak on July 27, 2024, 01:34:24 PMThey can and should do the same to provide an alternate route for I-75/US 23 in this area, if it is needed.

There is a time and a place where US Highways are useful as alternate routes, if they are consistent in quality. Nevada had the right idea to move US 395 to I-580, because that way it is consistent in quality as the thru north-south route people take. There is also a signed alternate that is useful for motorists in the event of an emergency or if they simply choose not to take the freeway--the point is that the thru route is very clearly designated and consistently numbered.

I completely agree.

And since we are already talking fixing US-23, I think that MDOT should redesignate the 21 miles of M-13 from Kawkawlin to Standish (as well as the 2½ mile M-13 Connector to I-75) back to US-23, rerouting it from the mainline freeway.

Huron Road is a perfectly acceptable, 5-lane alternative route that I take often on the summer Sundays when I-75 SB becomes overloaded. (Not to mention the road still has Pinconning Cheeseries and Rosie's Pies).

It would be good for out of staters to be able to feel more comfortable on it as most folks feel U.S. Roads have more panache than a state road. Road geeks know better, but this change wouldn't be for them.

Did anybody attend the open house today?

Preliminary Delaware County Feasability Study is out: https://publicinput.com/q554343 (https://publicinput.com/q554343)

There's a lot to look at so take your time. Lots of RIROs is all I can say.

I saw a news segment on the release and they seemed to think only those projects with a PID and Tier 1 would be addressed in the near future, which means Coover Rd and Troutman Rd. Big shocker. Those are both north of Delaware, have plenty of ROW to work with and more importantly... will encounter the least resistance from the populace.

I did notice an important section, Lewis Center Rd, a Tier 1 without a PID had a caveat where the eventual configuration was dependent on the Home Rd interchange which tells me they are a package deal. A $170mil package deal. Neither has a PID. 

Oh yeah the number of meetings with businesses represented -- especially big chains -- are likely to slow the proceedings big time in built-up areas.

It's not the worst concept and is likely the most affordable option for the state with the least resistance. South of Delaware, the plan adds a through lane, overpasses at major junctions with ramps, right-in/right-out (RIRO) access for all driveways and side roads, additional U-turn movements, and a fixed barrier closing all median openings. 

While these designs typically increase speeds, I worry they may not reduce accidents as much as expected. Higher speeds combined with turning traffic often lead to more severe crashes. They function well until traffic volumes increase—similar road designs in New Jersey can become chaotic. 

From the map, it's unclear how many interchanges are planned or the spacing between exits. Do you have more details on that?

^So it's a little weird,I think the yellow boxes and triangles with signals are interchanges in the Executive Summary. Triangles are probably diamonds. I hope the boxes aren't cloverleafs.

No offense, guys. ODOT can't even get their signmaking shop fixed and you expect me to trust their decision-making skills when it comes to dozens of RIRO's being the answer?

:-D

Chillicothe Pike and US 35, Jackson, Ohio

(https://scontent-ord5-2.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t39.30808-6/480966787_2359149194418082_1654123628205415579_n.jpg?stp=dst-jpg_s720x720_tt6&_nc_cat=106&ccb=1-7&_nc_sid=aa7b47&_nc_ohc=7BNSw66w2iEQ7kNvgHm5u-j&_nc_oc=Adg1thOvwt-dNchWce7bilJgcYpNPN93cqZIrx7y4ezKmj4NtyX7fOt9t-OUHPI8r48&_nc_zt=23&_nc_ht=scontent-ord5-2.xx&_nc_gid=AtFBMJSu6lEcXguuWgqSR42&oh=00_AYDWJ96cp_-gZnEj4oQfDp9lRPCdZK46rVTbn4DwC3HuWg&oe=67C06183)

Quote from: seicer on February 20, 2025, 09:49:51 AMIt's not the worst concept and is likely the most affordable option for the state with the least resistance. South of Delaware, the plan adds a through lane, overpasses at major junctions with ramps, right-in/right-out (RIRO) access for all driveways and side roads, additional U-turn movements, and a fixed barrier closing all median openings.

While these designs typically increase speeds, I worry they may not reduce accidents as much as expected. Higher speeds combined with turning traffic often lead to more severe crashes. They function well until traffic volumes increase—similar road designs in New Jersey can become chaotic.

From the map, it's unclear how many interchanges are planned or the spacing between exits. Do you have more details on that?

I just concluded a whirlwind tour of Southeastern Ohio taking US 23 down to Chillicothe, then US 35 to Jackson and Wellston, OH 93 to Logan and then US 33 back home.

Just a roadgeek's observations:

1. US 23 - The 50 mph sections are unacceptable. That thing should be four lane freeway at least to South Bloomfield and my preference would be to Chillicothe.

2. US 35 - why has there never been a westbound US 35 offramp from US 35. I understand the surface roads probably work, but this is just sloppy work. I don't understand why you would build a nice highway and not build that at the same time. But then again, these are the RIRO people.

3. US 35 to Jackson is a nice stretch of road. I wonder why they didn't remove all the at grade crossings in that stretch between Richmond Dale and just before Jackson. I just don't like those at grade crossings because of the terrain. I don't think they are very safe. At the very least, they should put up some led lights at the crossings for night time travel.

4. US 35/OH 32 to Wellston - no complaints other than the fact that it would be nice to have an interchange between US 35 and OH 32.

5. OH 93 - No complaints. It's curvy and tight in places, but I don't expect two lane roads out in the boonies to be designed perfectly. I do expect perfection from the four-lane roads!

6. US 33 from Logan to Columbus - I think there is too much traffic. The entire thing should be freeway from Logan to Columbus. Entering/exiting the rest area is dangerous. Again, they need to at least light up all the at-grade crossings. I don't know if that would interfere with seeing cars coming, but it just seems very dark.

Logan rest area was pretty creepy. Maybe I'm just paranoid because of what used to go on at the old Lancaster rest area.  :-D

Quote from: TempoNick on February 22, 2025, 08:39:54 PM2. US 35 - why has there never been a westbound US 35 offramp from US 35. I understand the surface roads probably work, but this is just sloppy work. I don't understand why you would build a nice highway and not build that at the same time. But then again, these are the RIRO people.

I presume you mean SBD US-23 to WBD US-35 in Chillicothe. Otherwise, that statement made no sense.

1960's era ODOT likely found that movement to not be warranted due to lack of traffic that was expected. Even now, there's no signage advising WBD US-35 traffic how to exit US-23. They can exit one exit early at Bus US-23 or one exit late at Western Ave (US 50 West) and re-enter WBD US-35.

The US-35 interchange with BUS US-23 is also pretty short-spaced to the US-23/35 interchange and would only have about 1000' of weave/merge space for SBD US-23 traffic to enter and BUS US-23-bound traffic to exit without grade-separating the two movements.

To do this correctly, they would need to overpass the WBD exit to Bus US-23 (including over the railroad tracks), then widen the Bus US-23 overpass and provide a weave/merge area for traffic entering WBD US-35. Those additional lanes would have to continue west over the Scicto River to become weave/merge lanes for the interchange at OH-104 to allow enough distance for drivers to complete the movements. That's a lot of expensive bridgework to safely manage what I presume to be very light traffic.

Maybe, but it's still half-assed. Screw 104. If any southbound connection should be circuitous, that should be the one. Like I said, it's a nice stretch of highway overall, but they always seem to do some half-assed thing like that.

I grew up in Chillicothe and never really thought much about it. I'm of the opinion that incomplete interchanges are fine if traffic volumes don't warrant the movements.

If the US 23/35 bypass were being built today, I could see the argument of trumpeting US 35 into US 23 given the amount traffic there is on Bridge Street. But I also don't think it needs to be treated as an urgent fix. The OH 104 / 207 connection is a bit bulbous, but it isn't terrible. Most of the people who would use 23 South to 35 West or the reverse would be local traffic or people who live in southwest Ross County.

If anything, I think OH 207 could be replaced with OH 180 now that it connects between 104 and 159, maybe add a new route or extend OH 180 or 28 along Veterans Pkwy, Pleasant Valley and Moundsville Road to connect US 50 to 104.

I imagine most people from out of town heed the signs and use 207/104 to get to 35 west since they don't idealize alternate scenarios. It mostly irks locals and roadgeeks that know that the direct connection is missing.

$2B US 23 improvements north of Columbus (Facebook link): https://www.nbc4i.com/news/local-news/central-ohio-news/odot-introduces-2b-road-improvement-project-for-u-s-23-north-of-columbus/amp/?fbclid=IwZXh0bgNhZW0CMTEAAR27mbswtWIuUK1F5u6dx4oRCWZaZpGxZKY6mAACXPRVRJKpQpl-JrugVdg_aem_aTSmtNawBYua9FFt4D5sRA

South Bloomfield Set to Begin Major US 23 Widening Project

SOUTH BLOOMFIELD, OH – A long-awaited infrastructure improvement project is set to begin in South Bloomfield, as crews prepare to widen US 23 to enhance traffic flow and safety. The project, made possible through funding from the Ohio Public Works Commission, the Pickaway County Traffic Improvement District, and state legislative initiatives, is expected to be completed by September 29, 2025.

https://www.sciotopost.com/south-bloomfield-set-to-begin-major-us-23-widening-project/ (https://www.sciotopost.com/south-bloomfield-set-to-begin-major-us-23-widening-project/)

I was there Monday and it must just be the utility work starting as traffic was not affected. I didn't see anything going on despite the start date being February 17. But get ready to avoid the area as going down to two lanes will back up traffic a lot as seen a couple months ago when other utility work closed lanes.

Remember this is not the bypass but rather the Concept 2 from the 2006 plan. Both are still planned as they do not affect each other from a construction standpoint.

https://www.13abc.com/2025/03/12/odot-turnpike-could-be-forced-come-up-with-us-23-alternative-toledocolumbus-route/

What do we have here? Another feasibility study for US 23!

It's hilarious that they have plenty of video footage of the other bottleneck along US 23 thrown in there, which only requires moving it to SR 15 and I-75...

Quote from: Great Lakes Roads on March 12, 2025, 09:06:21 PMhttps://www.13abc.com/2025/03/12/odot-turnpike-could-be-forced-come-up-with-us-23-alternative-toledocolumbus-route/

What do we have here? Another feasibility study for US 23!

Quote from: Great Lakes Roads on March 12, 2025, 09:06:21 PMhttps://www.13abc.com/2025/03/12/odot-turnpike-could-be-forced-come-up-with-us-23-alternative-toledocolumbus-route/

What do we have here? Another feasibility study for US 23!

I never had OHIO TURNPIKE COMMISSION or TOLL ROAD on my US-23 Alternative Bingo Card, nor did I ever think of a possibility of having an Ohio Turnpike "spur" in Central Ohio, especially since its been about 70 years since the Ohio Turnpike, I-71, and the lower half of Ohio were mentioned in the same breath.

But I will say, if anyone can make a highway bypass around the US-23 mess from Delaware happen -- Hell, if anyone can make a FULL I-73 interstate between Toledo and Columbus,

Quote from: thenetwork on March 13, 2025, 08:40:37 AMBut I will say, if anyone can make a highway bypass around the US-23 mess from Delaware happen -- Hell, if anyone can make a FULL I-73 interstate between Toledo and Columbus,

Now there's a cliffhanger!  :popcorn:


I think any connector built on a new alignment should take a NW/SE routing from I-71 just north of US 36 to Waldo.

Quote from: webny99 on March 13, 2025, 11:46:56 AM

Quote from: thenetwork on March 13, 2025, 08:40:37 AMBut I will say, if anyone can make a highway bypass around the US-23 mess from Delaware happen -- Hell, if anyone can make a FULL I-73 interstate between Toledo and Columbus,

Now there's a cliffhanger!  :popcorn:


I think any connector built on a new alignment should take a NW/SE routing from I-71 just north of US 36 to Waldo.

I wouldn't mind the Turnpike fully upgrade/build and toll not only the stretch of bypyass US-23 from a future connector to I-71, but the stretch between Carey and the I-280/I-80/I-90 junction. Then the free Toledo-Columbus alternative would remain on the existing 4-lanes of US-23/SR-15/I-75.  There would definitely be enough traffic volume on the new Toll Roads to make it profitable for the Pike.

Quote from: thenetwork on March 13, 2025, 01:54:01 PM

Quote from: webny99 on March 13, 2025, 11:46:56 AM

Quote from: thenetwork on March 13, 2025, 08:40:37 AMBut I will say, if anyone can make a highway bypass around the US-23 mess from Delaware happen -- Hell, if anyone can make a FULL I-73 interstate between Toledo and Columbus,

Now there's a cliffhanger!  :popcorn:


I think any connector built on a new alignment should take a NW/SE routing from I-71 just north of US 36 to Waldo.

I wouldn't mind the Turnpike fully upgrade/build and toll not only the stretch of bypyass US-23 from a future connector to I-71, but the stretch between Carey and the I-280/I-80/I-90 junction. Then the free Toledo-Columbus alternative would remain on the existing 4-lanes of US-23/SR-15/I-75.  There would definitely be enough traffic volume on the new Toll Roads to make it profitable for the Pike.

The turnpike commission was supposed to be looking at building I-73, so I don't have any problem with this idea either. If ODOT can't get motivated to build it, let the turnpike commission build a toll road (with very limited exits) as a connector. Chicagoland has toll roads all around and they seem to do just fine with them.

^^^ I bet that ODOT would get off their butts and build it if they had the Turnpike Commission on their tail. You know how these agencies try to protect their turf.

Quote from: Great Lakes Roads on March 12, 2025, 09:06:21 PMhttps://www.13abc.com/2025/03/12/odot-turnpike-could-be-forced-come-up-with-us-23-alternative-toledocolumbus-route/

What do we have here? Another feasibility study for US 23!

The feasibility study is for the entire US 23 corridor in order to make it Interstate 73 and must be complete by December 31, 2026. There is a separate section that gives ODOT and the Turnpike Commission 3 months to design a bypass of US 23 in Delaware County from 4 options, provide 5 alternatives for those options, and determine if it is best handled by ODOT or the OTC (and whether OTC has jurisdiction).

Here is the text of the portions we care about in this forum from the bill. You can find the most current version at https://ohiosenate.gov/legislation/136/hb54.

I apologize for the length.

 Section 755.50. The Director of Transportation shall conduct a feasibility study for the creation of an Interstate Route 73 corridor connecting the municipal corporation of Toledo to the municipal corporation of Chesapeake, primarily alongside
current United States Route 23. The purpose of the new corridor is to better connect Interstate Route 74, Interstate Route 75, and the states of Michigan, Ohio, West Virginia, Virginia, North
Carolina, and South Carolina along one continuous interstate route.
The feasibility study shall examine how to alleviate
congestion along United States Route 23, the economic impacts of a new interstate corridor, safety concerns, connectivity issues, and methods for coordinating with the other states and the United States Department of Transportation for the creation of the corridor.
The Director shall complete the feasibility study not later than December 31, 2026.

Section 755.60.
(A) The Department of Transportation and the Ohio Turnpike and Infrastructure Commission shall work together to create a joint plan regarding the feasibility of connecting U.S. Route 23 to Interstate Route 71 by doing one of the following:
 (1) Expanding State Route 229 in northern Delaware County;
 (2) Expanding another similar state route or other highway in northern Delaware County;
 (3) Creating a new freeway between U.S. Route 23 and Interstate Route 71 in northern Delaware County;
 (4) Creating a toll road between U.S. Route 23 and Interstate Route 71 in northern Delaware County.
(B) As part of the plan, related to the options specified in divisions (A)(3) and (4) of this section, the Department and Commission shall prepare a preliminary engineering report that determines the most feasible routes for the new freeway or toll
road. As part of the report, the Department and Commission shall determine five potential alignments for the freeway or toll road and specify which alignment is the preferred route.
 (C) The plan shall be completed not later than three months after the effective date of this section.
 (D) As part of the plan, the Department and the Commission shall determine whether construction would be best conducted by the Department or the Commission. If construction is best conducted by the Commission, the plan also shall include whether the Commission's statutory authority is sufficient to make the project a turnpike project.
 (E) The Department and Commission shall submit their plan to the President of the Senate, the Speaker of the House of Representatives, the Minority Leaders of both the Senate and the
House of Representatives, and the chairpersons of the respective committees of the House of Representatives and Senate responsible for transportation related matters.

This isn't speculation anymore. Keep in mind that both the House Speaker and Senate President are from NW Ohio, so the language isn't there by accident. In addition, the budget unanimously passed the House, so I have trouble believing this is coming out.

Side note: I'm not bumping the I-73 thread unless the language is in the bill that gets signed. : )

Quote from: TempoNick on March 13, 2025, 04:44:46 PM^^^ I bet that ODOT would get off their butts and build it if they had the Turnpike Commission on their tail. You know how these agencies try to protect their turf.

Wouldn't this be a win for ODOT? Seems like they're reluctant to convert US 23 to a freeway and it would be one less highway to maintain if it were built by the Turnpike Commission. I never considered a Columbus Spur of the Ohio Turnpike, but it makes a lot of sense for it to extend off of I-280 down to I-71.

I think it'd be better off if they abandoned the single I-73 route from Michigan to South Carolina and break it up into smaller projects. Whether that means a 'Columbus Spur' becomes the Northern I-73, or it becomes an extension of I-280.

Based on the budget bill, the Turnpike's involvement is limited to the I-71/US 23 connector. The intent is not to create a long extension of the Ohio Turnpike.

Quote from: PColumbus73 on March 13, 2025, 08:03:42 PM

Quote from: TempoNick on March 13, 2025, 04:44:46 PM^^^ I bet that ODOT would get off their butts and build it if they had the Turnpike Commission on their tail. You know how these agencies try to protect their turf.

Wouldn't this be a win for ODOT? Seems like they're reluctant to convert US 23 to a freeway and it would be one less highway to maintain if it were built by the Turnpike Commission. I never considered a Columbus Spur of the Ohio Turnpike, but it makes a lot of sense for it to extend off of I-280 down to I-71.

I think it'd be better off if they abandoned the single I-73 route from Michigan to South Carolina and break it up into smaller projects. Whether that means a 'Columbus Spur' becomes the Northern I-73, or it becomes an extension of I-280.

I-73 is good in the long run, but for the time being I've always thought it should be I-875 or I-877. If you're wondering why I-877, they could take one of the other diagonal roads into Southern Ohio to connect to I-77. I don't think tolls will fly in that part of the state, however. Too poor.

I also wonder if tolls will fly on a road like US 23 which is already in place. It seems to me that the existing 23 should not be tolled. However tolling is legitimate on any new segments that are built.

Recently, I've been thinking what might also work at least in the interim is to incorporate the outer-outerbelt from Sunbury to Lancaster into I-73. Then just upgrade US 33 until you get to I-77.

Quote from: TempoNick on March 14, 2025, 01:34:04 AM

Quote from: PColumbus73 on March 13, 2025, 08:03:42 PM

Quote from: TempoNick on March 13, 2025, 04:44:46 PM^^^ I bet that ODOT would get off their butts and build it if they had the Turnpike Commission on their tail. You know how these agencies try to protect their turf.

Wouldn't this be a win for ODOT? Seems like they're reluctant to convert US 23 to a freeway and it would be one less highway to maintain if it were built by the Turnpike Commission. I never considered a Columbus Spur of the Ohio Turnpike, but it makes a lot of sense for it to extend off of I-280 down to I-71.

I think it'd be better off if they abandoned the single I-73 route from Michigan to South Carolina and break it up into smaller projects. Whether that means a 'Columbus Spur' becomes the Northern I-73, or it becomes an extension of I-280.

I-73 is good in the long run, but for the time being I've always thought it should be I-875 or I-877. If you're wondering why I-877, they could take one of the other diagonal roads into Southern Ohio to connect to I-77. I don't think tolls will fly in that part of the state, however. Too poor.

I also wonder if tolls will fly on a road like US 23 which is already in place. It seems to me that the existing 23 should not be tolled. However tolling is legitimate on any new segments that are built.

Recently, I've been thinking what might also work at least in the interim is to incorporate the outer-outerbelt from Sunbury to Lancaster into I-73. Then just upgrade US 33 until you get to I-77.

I could see a future where there's a 4-route concurrency on the WV Turnpike (64,73,74,77) if this proposal gets built. If it were to utilize a 3di number it would probably be first digit odd (175, 377, etc.) as it would act more as a spur (see I-135 KS, I-380 IA) through a major city

Getting into obnoxious fictional territory here, but one of the issues with using I-73 in Ohio is the presence of the rather lengthy and well-known SR 73 which it could intersect near Portsmouth. While it would be a grid-buster, I would suggest using I-63, acknowledging that the corridors will likely never connect.

Isn't it that if there is a number conflict that the state route has to change numbers, not the Federal?

Quote from: Molandfreak on March 14, 2025, 04:36:29 PMGetting into obnoxious fictional territory here, but one of the issues with using I-73 in Ohio is the presence of the rather lengthy and well-known SR 73 which it could intersect near Portsmouth. While it would be a grid-buster, I would suggest using I-63, acknowledging that the corridors will likely never connect.

I support rebranding the Ohio portion as I-63.

Quote from: GCrites on March 14, 2025, 06:14:38 PMIsn't it that if there is a number conflict that the state route has to change numbers, not the Federal?

That's probably why I-42 was chosen over I-36 in North Carolina. I don't believe there would be a number conflict between I & OH 73, but the state avoids duplicates.

Quote from: I-55 on March 14, 2025, 04:08:53 PM

Quote from: TempoNick on March 14, 2025, 01:34:04 AM

Quote from: PColumbus73 on March 13, 2025, 08:03:42 PM

Quote from: TempoNick on March 13, 2025, 04:44:46 PM^^^ I bet that ODOT would get off their butts and build it if they had the Turnpike Commission on their tail. You know how these agencies try to protect their turf.

Wouldn't this be a win for ODOT? Seems like they're reluctant to convert US 23 to a freeway and it would be one less highway to maintain if it were built by the Turnpike Commission. I never considered a Columbus Spur of the Ohio Turnpike, but it makes a lot of sense for it to extend off of I-280 down to I-71.

I think it'd be better off if they abandoned the single I-73 route from Michigan to South Carolina and break it up into smaller projects. Whether that means a 'Columbus Spur' becomes the Northern I-73, or it becomes an extension of I-280.

I-73 is good in the long run, but for the time being I've always thought it should be I-875 or I-877. If you're wondering why I-877, they could take one of the other diagonal roads into Southern Ohio to connect to I-77. I don't think tolls will fly in that part of the state, however. Too poor.

I also wonder if tolls will fly on a road like US 23 which is already in place. It seems to me that the existing 23 should not be tolled. However tolling is legitimate on any new segments that are built.

Recently, I've been thinking what might also work at least in the interim is to incorporate the outer-outerbelt from Sunbury to Lancaster into I-73. Then just upgrade US 33 until you get to I-77.

I could see a future where there's a 4-route concurrency on the WV Turnpike (64,73,74,77) if this proposal gets built. If it were to utilize a 3di number it would probably be first digit odd (175, 377, etc.) as it would act more as a spur (see I-135 KS, I-380 IA) through a major city

Don't spur numbers usually dead end somewhere? I know I-380 in Iowa dead ends right into US 20 in Waterloo. I guess you could have two spurs, I-175 to the Northwest and I-377 to the southeast.

Re: Ohio 73

I don't think anybody is going to miss Ohio 73 which could easily become 173, 273, 373, etc. whichever of those numbers are available. Remember, when I-75 was completed, Ohio 75 was thrown into the trash heap of History!

If nothing is available, which I doubt, we can do it Kentucky style with four digits. 😆

If OH 73 had to be renumbered to make way for an Interstate 73 within the state, renumbering it to OH 1, OH 69, or OH 92 are possibilities, since those designations are not currently in use.

MD 68 and I-68 have coexisted peacefully for decades.

Oh wait.  I-73 won't be done in my childrens' lifetimes...whatever.

Quote from: Rothman on March 14, 2025, 11:33:24 PMMD 68 and I-68 have coexisted peacefully for decades.

Oh wait.  I-73 won't be done in my childrens' lifetimes...whatever.

I told you guys this the last time the legislature passed something on I-73 within the last couple of years and I was mocked. When there is this much conversation about a supposedly dead topic at the Statehouse, something is brewing that we don't know about.

Kind of like the US 33 four-laning, and the new bridge into West Virginia. I don't think that was on anybody's radar. Is Ohio getting a bunch of money dumped on it thanks to the fact that our Vice President comes from our beloved state? I wouldn't bet against it.

If you remember the last time we had a bunch of money dumped on us, it was during the 2009 meltdown and we got the long dormant Nelsonville bypass completed. Also helping matters was the fact that we had a governor / former congressman from Appalachia.

Something's brewing. That doesn't mean all of I-73 will get completed, but I'm pretty confident something is going to happen at least between Toledo and Columbus.

This isn't about federal money coming in because of the vice president coming from Ohio. It is about a large contingent of legislative leadership (both houses, both parties) representing places along the US 23 corridor, especially Northwest Ohio, that are tired of the status quo on 23. I'm sure that the RIRO plan released by ODOT was the proverbial final straw.

2 years ago, the former Speaker got the Chesapeake Bypass revived, while the House Finance Chair (from Nelsonville) got the US 33 expansion. They also restarted the I-73 discussion using the transportation budget. This time around, the Speaker (former Senate President) is from Lima, while the new House Finance Chair represents Circleville. The current Senate President represents Bowling Green and areas near Findlay.

It shows 2 things: First, the legislature (97-0 in the House, and I wouldn't be surprised if it ends up unanimously passing the Senate) is telling ODOT that the RIRO plan isn't viable. Second, it also shows that the legislature is telling Delaware County residents that this is going to happen.

Quote from: carbaugh2 on March 15, 2025, 06:56:44 AMThis isn't about federal money coming in because of the vice president coming from Ohio. It is about a large contingent of legislative leadership (both houses, both parties) representing places along the US 23 corridor, especially Northwest Ohio, that are tired of the status quo on 23. I'm sure that the RIRO plan released by ODOT was the proverbial final straw.

2 years ago, the former Speaker got the Chesapeake Bypass revived, while the House Finance Chair (from Nelsonville) got the US 33 expansion. They also restarted the I-73 discussion using the transportation budget. This time around, the Speaker (former Senate President) is from Lima, while the new House Finance Chair represents Circleville. The current Senate President represents Bowling Green and areas near Findlay.

It shows 2 things: First, the legislature (97-0 in the House, and I wouldn't be surprised if it ends up unanimously passing the Senate) is telling ODOT that the RIRO plan isn't viable. Second, it also shows that the legislature is telling Delaware County residents that this is going to happen.

All of what you said may have merit. Maybe the extremely stupid RIRO plan was indeed the proverbial last straw. But you need to read into the history of the Nelsonville bypass, it needed Federal juice to get done. It was a 200 million dollar project that was DOA until Ted Strickland got Obama to dump 150 million into it. It was a priority for Strickland because he has always been an advocate for Appalachia. Don't kid yourself that it doesn't pay to have friends in high places. Real life is not like they teach you in 12th grade civics class.

Quote from: carbaugh2 on March 15, 2025, 06:56:44 AMIt shows 2 things: First, the legislature (97-0 in the House, and I wouldn't be surprised if it ends up unanimously passing the Senate) is telling ODOT that the RIRO plan isn't viable. Second, it also shows that the legislature is telling Delaware County residents that this is going to happen.

Hmm, I didn't think of that initially but you may be right. I looked at it like, "The Statehouse is trying to get attention from their constituents with this big flashy project then end up doing nothing" since that happens all the time with politicians. And I also haven't seen an entire legislative house stand up to ODOT like that. Individual politicians, yes. But if the politicians are serious you called it.

Quote from: TempoNick on March 15, 2025, 09:21:35 AMAll of what you said may have merit. Maybe the extremely stupid RIRO plan was indeed the proverbial last straw. But you need to read into the history of the Nelsonville bypass, it needed Federal juice to get done. It was a 200 million dollar project that was DOA until Ted Strickland got Obama to dump 150 million into it. It was a priority for Strickland because he has always been an advocate for Appalachia. Don't kid yourself that it doesn't pay to have friends in high places. Real life is not like they teach you in 12th grade civics class.

The current legislature does side with Appalachia on a lot of issues but there isn't anyone lately that can bring home giant projects like the big bypasses and 32. Those really do take Appalachians at the very top like Vern Riffe, Gov. Roads and Strickland.

Quote from: carbaugh2 on March 15, 2025, 06:56:44 AMThis isn't about federal money coming in because of the vice president coming from Ohio. It is about a large contingent of legislative leadership (both houses, both parties) representing places along the US 23 corridor, especially Northwest Ohio, that are tired of the status quo on 23. I'm sure that the RIRO plan released by ODOT was the proverbial final straw.

I remember whan ODOT said, "Let's eliminate the US-23 'bottlenecks'by I-270, and build a Northbound-ONLY "Express Trench" so traffic can bypass some of the first busy intersections when they come off of I-270".

ODOT and the state keep doing stupid half-assed projects like that and it's no wonder that the traffic keeps getting worse and current alternatives are being scoffed at.

Quote from: GCrites on March 15, 2025, 12:15:36 PMThe current legislature does side with Appalachia on a lot of issues but there isn't anyone lately that can bring home giant projects like the big bypasses and 32. Those really do take Appalachians at the very top like Vern Riffe, Gov. Roads and Strickland.

Well, we kind of have one now, almost at the very top with JD. Let's hope he has some pull.

Quote from: thenetwork on March 15, 2025, 12:48:14 PMI remember whan ODOT said, "Let's eliminate the US-23 'bottlenecks'by I-270, and build a Northbound-ONLY "Express Trench" so traffic can bypass some of the first busy intersections when they come off of I-270".

ODOT and the state keep doing stupid half-assed projects like that and it's no wonder that the traffic keeps getting worse and current alternatives are being scoffed at.

Yup. That has been what I've been ranting about with this debacle. It's almost like they're looking for reasons not to fix it. You don't have to be an engineer. Anybody can see what the problem is and what the solution is. They paid millions to that engineering company for a bunch of pretty slides and pretty reports that come up with a very stupid result. And they go with it like it was etched in a tablet and handed down by Moses. That's why I'm saying ODOT should be blown up. (Figuratively, that is.)

Indiana builds I-69 and North Carolina builds I-73 and I-74. We build RIROs and J-turns.

Conspiracy time:

1. Do you think ODOT has been captured by all these mass transit weenies and urbanist wankers? Are they deliberately trying to choke the area to force us into choo-choo's? I have nothing against trains by the way, but not at the expense of the kinds of roads we need.

2. Are Kokosing and Shelly and Sands lobbying against this behind the scenes? Is fixing something once and for all versus endless Band-Aids less profitable for them?

If anything the proposed southern Delaware County is trying to please business interests first since an all new alignment takes away their valuable drive-by traffic. The area in question is not a high-priority transit corridor due to its location far from the core city. Most rail transit ideas stop at Polaris at the furthest. Even in a city that prioritizes rail anything north of Polaris would see low-frequency commuter rail at best.

IMO ODOT is trying to keep the cost down (even with the $2B price tag) while maintaining business access and that's why the RIROs are so prolific. It seems like nothing that doesn't cost $1B matters anymore.

I would guess an interstate conversion of US 23 would require the 23-71 connection to be built, which would be a good reason for business interests between Delaware and I-270 to lobby against it.

Quote from: GCrites on March 15, 2025, 12:10:42 PM

Quote from: carbaugh2 on March 15, 2025, 06:56:44 AMIt shows 2 things: First, the legislature (97-0 in the House, and I wouldn't be surprised if it ends up unanimously passing the Senate) is telling ODOT that the RIRO plan isn't viable. Second, it also shows that the legislature is telling Delaware County residents that this is going to happen.

Hmm, I didn't think of that initially but you may be right. I looked at it like, "The Statehouse is trying to get attention from their constituents with this big flashy project then end up doing nothing" since that happens all the time with politicians. And I also haven't seen an entire legislative house stand up to ODOT like that. Individual politicians, yes. But if the politicians are serious you called it.

The House didn't "stand up to ODOT." They voted for the statewide transportation funding bill.

Oh I see, it is a "Why not both?" situation.

This is very simple, at least to me:

1) Fix US 23 as a freeway with a connector to I-71 first;
2) Do some traffic calming on US 23 to make it 35 mph or 45 mph (Traffic circles maybe) to force traffic off the road and onto the connector;
3) Reassess.

You may not need to do any major fixes to US 23 after this, but you may need a fourth/fifth lane on I-71 to wherever the connector ends up being.

Quote from: TempoNick on March 17, 2025, 05:17:24 PMThis is very simple, at least to me:

1) Fix US 23 as a freeway with a connector to I-71 first;
2) Do some traffic calming on US 23 to make it 35 mph or 45 mph (Traffic circles maybe) to force traffic off the road and onto the c

Quote from: TempoNick on March 17, 2025, 05:17:24 PMThis is very simple, at least to me:


2) Do some traffic calming on US 23 to make it 35 mph or 45 mph (Traffic circles maybe) to force traffic off the road and onto the connector

That's what the newest section of Sawmill Parkway is from US-42 in Delaware down into Powell -- 45 MPH with roundabouts. 

A limited-access highway connection between 23 and 71 (freeway or tollway) should take off enough regional and long-distance traffic south of Deleware.

Not sure if it's been brought up before, but on the topic on US 23 upgrades in Ohio, there is a project scheduled for 2027 that will convert the at grade intersection at OH 294 between Marion and Upper to a full diamond interchange:

https://www.transportation.ohio.gov/projects/projects/121424

Ohio 529: "Fifth option for potential U.S. 23 bypass put on table"


Archived at:
https://archive.is/33fLi

Original link: https://www.toledoblade.com/local/transportation/2025/03/19/potential-us-23-bypass-northwest-ohio-columbus-fifth-option-put-on-tabl

Update on the budget bill:

The 5th option stayed in the bill. The Senate passed it 32-0, and the House concurred 87-3. No word on when Gov. DeWine will sign it into law.

As a reminder, Section 755.60 states that the report on the plan and preliminary engineering must be submitted to the legislature with 90 days of the effective date of the legislation, which puts it at the end of September (Fiscal Year 2026 starts on July 1st).

DeWine signs transportation budget with provision to create alternative on Toledo-Columbus route

TOLEDO, Ohio (WTVG) - Ohio Gov. Mike DeWine signed the transportation budget on Monday, which includes a mandate for Ohio transportation experts to come up with a plan to create a better route between Toledo and Columbus.

https://www.13abc.com/2025/03/31/dewine-signs-transportation-budget-with-provision-create-alternative-toledocolumbus-route/

A mandate...to study the corridor! :D

Quote from: Rothman on April 01, 2025, 12:53:34 AMA mandate...to study the corridor! :D

If there's anything you can count on the Columbus metro to do every time it is pay for studies.

It appears Interstate 270 has a proposed interchange at Davidson Rd. Can anyone tell me about that proposal?

No interchange is proposed by ODOT. It's also not in the TRAC list.

Quote from: seicer on April 02, 2025, 02:16:13 PMNo interchange is proposed by ODOT. It's also not in the TRAC list.

The hotly debated I-71 / Boston Road interchange on the Strongsville (Cuyahoga County) / Brunswick (Medina County) border has been shelved for now.

Apparantly this stretch of I-71 Between SR-82 and SR-303 has the distinction of the *urban freeway* (not toll) with the largest gap between 2 exits in the US at just shy of 6 miles.

Quote from: thenetwork on April 02, 2025, 08:38:42 PM

Quote from: seicer on April 02, 2025, 02:16:13 PMNo interchange is proposed by ODOT. It's also not in the TRAC list.

The hotly debated I-71 / Boston Road interchange on the Strongsville (Cuyahoga County) / Brunswick (Medina County) border has been shelved for now.

Apparantly this stretch of I-71 Between SR-82 and SR-303 has the distinction of the *urban freeway* (not toll) with the largest gap between 2 exits in the US at just shy of 6 miles.

My cousin lives near there. That is a stupid place to dump a lot of traffic into. Everything west of there through US 42 is two-lane residential, the way I remember it. Unless someone wants to buy up all the houses along Boston Road, feeding I-71 to and from there would be insane.

Quote from: thenetwork on April 02, 2025, 08:38:42 PM

Quote from: seicer on April 02, 2025, 02:16:13 PMNo interchange is proposed by ODOT. It's also not in the TRAC list.

The hotly debated I-71 / Boston Road interchange on the Strongsville (Cuyahoga County) / Brunswick (Medina County) border has been shelved for now.

Apparantly this stretch of I-71 Between SR-82 and SR-303 has the distinction of the *urban freeway* (not toll) with the largest gap between 2 exits in the US at just shy of 6 miles.

It doesn't. Florida I-275 has 7 miles north of Tampa. Unless that doesn't count as urban because it's immediately surrounded by green?

But how the shit did the topic get here?

I read the article from the Toledo station, but it didn't get much into detail. Here is the language that is being added to the Ohio Revised Code. There are two studies- the full US 23/Interstate 73 corridor that is due at the end of 2026, and a connector route between US 23 and Interstate 71 that would bypass the mess of traffic between 270 and Waldo that is due 90 days after the enactment of the budget, so the end of September. The study for the connector feels like it has more teeth than a normal study such as the one for the full 73 corridor.


SECTION 755.50.
The Director of Transportation shall conduct a feasibility study for the creation of an Interstate Route 73 corridor connecting the municipal corporation of Toledo to the municipal corporation of Chesapeake, primarily alongside current United States Route 23. The purpose of the new corridor is to better connect Interstate Route 74, Interstate Route 75, and the states of Michigan, Ohio, West Virginia, Virginia, North Carolina, and South Carolina along one
continuous interstate route.
The feasibility study shall examine how to alleviate congestion along United States Route 23, the economic impacts of a new interstate corridor, safety concerns, connectivity issues, and methods for coordinating with the other states and the United States Department of Transportation
for the creation of the corridor.
The Director shall complete the feasibility study not later than December 31, 2026.
 
SECTION 755.60.
(A) The Department of Transportation and the Ohio Turnpike and Infrastructure Commission shall work together to create a joint plan regarding the feasibility of connecting U.S. Route 23 to Interstate Route 71 by doing one of the following:
 (1) Expanding State Route 229 in northern Delaware County;
 (2) Expanding another similar state route or other highway in northern Delaware County;
 (3) Creating a new freeway between U.S. Route 23 and Interstate Route 71 in northern Delaware County;
 (4) Creating a toll road between U.S. Route 23 and Interstate Route 71 in northern Delaware County;
 (5) Creating a new freeway, which may be a toll road, in the region between State Route 529 and Waldo, Ohio heading eastward toward Interstate Route 71 north of Marengo, Ohio in Marion County and Morrow County.
 (B) As part of the plan, related to the options specified in divisions (A)(3) and (4) of this section, the Department and Commission shall prepare a preliminary engineering report that determines the most feasible routes for the new freeway or toll road. As part of the report, the Department and Commission shall determine five potential alignments for the freeway or toll road and specify which alignment is the preferred route.
 (C) The plan shall be completed not later than three months after the effective date of this section.
 (D) As part of the plan, the Department and the Commission shall determine whether construction would be best conducted by the Department or the Commission. If construction is best conducted by the Commission, the plan also shall include whether the Commission's statutory
authority is sufficient to make the project a turnpike project.
 (E) The Department and Commission shall submit their plan to the President of the Senate, the Speaker of the House of Representatives, the Minority Leaders of both the Senate and the House of Representatives, and the chairpersons of the respective committees of the House of Representatives and Senate responsible for transportation related matters.

(page 222 of https://search-prod.lis.state.oh.us/api/v2/general_assembly_136/legislation/hb54/07_EN/pdf/)

^ Thanks for that ORC language. It'll be interesting to see what comes of this.

Editorial:

"ODOT's plan is to clutter up an already overly congested lower Delaware County with intersection and turn lane upgrades to marginally increase (sic) trip time through the area."

https://www.toledoblade.com/opinion/editorials/2025/04/03/editorial-us-23-bypass-design-clears-big-hurdle-ohio-dewine-transportation-bill/stories/20250403012

https://www.transportation.ohio.gov/projects/projects/119804

Proposed project to replace the US 23/SR 229 intersection with a new interchange.

I like Alternative 3 since SR 229 is on a continuous alignment instead of an awkward 90-degree right turn. 

The RV dealership at US-23 and OH-762 is in the process of moving out of the path of the proposed interchange up to a higher spot out of its path.

Quote from: Great Lakes Roads on April 23, 2025, 04:16:38 PMhttps://www.transportation.ohio.gov/projects/projects/119804

Proposed project to replace the US 23/SR 229 intersection with a new interchange.

I like Alternative 3 since SR 229 is on a continuous alignment instead of an awkward 90-degree right turn. 

The original plans from 1964 called for an interchange at SR 229 (PDF (https://collectornew.dot.state.oh.us/arcgis/rest/directories/arcgisjobs/row_monuments/projectwiseplansetreaderbyguid_gpserver/jeeed68a6074d4a23b30e51491cdb897a/scratch/ROW370_0ys3o.pdf)). The northbound ramps on US 23 would have formed a half-diamond within the existing right-of-way, while it would be two slip ramps for southbound US 23. Options 2 and 3 are my preferred.

Quote from: Great Lakes Roads on April 23, 2025, 04:16:38 PMhttps://www.transportation.ohio.gov/projects/projects/119804

Proposed project to replace the US 23/SR 229 intersection with a new interchange.

I like Alternative 3 since SR 229 is on a continuous alignment instead of an awkward 90-degree right turn. 

The evaluation matrix makes the case the alternative 3 is the best overall option and costs $4.5 million less than alternatives 2 and 4. I also prefer alternative 3 since it allows 229 to flow continuously. My thought on the timing of this is that we should read this project as a confirmation that a widened Ohio 229 is out as a solution for the US 23 to I-71 connector study passed in the transportation budget.

Quote from: seicer on April 24, 2025, 09:13:10 AM

Quote from: Great Lakes Roads on April 23, 2025, 04:16:38 PMhttps://www.transportation.ohio.gov/projects/projects/119804

Proposed project to replace the US 23/SR 229 intersection with a new interchange.

I like Alternative 3 since SR 229 is on a continuous alignment instead of an awkward 90-degree right turn. 

The original plans from 1964 called for an interchange at SR 229 (PDF (https://collectornew.dot.state.oh.us/arcgis/rest/directories/arcgisjobs/row_monuments/projectwiseplansetreaderbyguid_gpserver/jeeed68a6074d4a23b30e51491cdb897a/scratch/ROW370_0ys3o.pdf)). The northbound ramps on US 23 would have formed a half-diamond within the existing right-of-way, while it would be two slip ramps for southbound US 23. Options 2 and 3 are my preferred.

That PDF link doesn't work. My hunch is it's only good for a short time after you requested the resource from the system. Could you stick a copy on Google Drive or something, and share a link to it there?

Quote from: vtk on April 29, 2025, 05:59:22 PM

Quote from: seicer on April 24, 2025, 09:13:10 AM

Quote from: Great Lakes Roads on April 23, 2025, 04:16:38 PMhttps://www.transportation.ohio.gov/projects/projects/119804

Proposed project to replace the US 23/SR 229 intersection with a new interchange.

I like Alternative 3 since SR 229 is on a continuous alignment instead of an awkward 90-degree right turn. 

The original plans from 1964 called for an interchange at SR 229 (PDF (https://collectornew.dot.state.oh.us/arcgis/rest/directories/arcgisjobs/row_monuments/projectwiseplansetreaderbyguid_gpserver/jeeed68a6074d4a23b30e51491cdb897a/scratch/ROW370_0ys3o.pdf)). The northbound ramps on US 23 would have formed a half-diamond within the existing right-of-way, while it would be two slip ramps for southbound US 23. Options 2 and 3 are my preferred.

That PDF link doesn't work. My hunch is it's only good for a short time after you requested the resource from the system. Could you stick a copy on Google Drive or something, and share a link to it there?

Check out https://gis3.dot.state.oh.us/ohrow_viewer/ (https://gis3.dot.state.oh.us/ohrow_viewer/) and search for DEL-23-17.48. Once you get the plan, scroll down a few pages and you'll see the ramps. That particular plan can be seen at https://drive.google.com/file/d/1R_ExhlN6aZnILLBxld0CDlpJXnWtADOD/view?usp=drive_link (https://drive.google.com/file/d/1R_ExhlN6aZnILLBxld0CDlpJXnWtADOD/view?usp=drive_link)

Thanks!

The rebuilt South Bloomfield rest area has been open for months now yet the signs for it on 23 that were removed while it was closed have not been replaced. So it's just "Surprise, rest area!" for people who don't know it's there. On the other hand, Denvil Curry Man With No Vocal Cord signs remain.

Quote from: GCrites on June 23, 2025, 03:23:47 PMDenvil Curry Man With No Vocal Cord

You'd think "no vocal cord" means he whispers everything, but actually he sounds more like Mickey Mouse.

They've actually added another Denvil Curry sign on US-23 North as well. It's one of my wife and my favorite sightings on our trips between NC and Michigan!