I think this deserves it's own thread because it asks why other areas did not follow the NJTP model.
As I drive this road, it has to be my favorite because of how smooth it is to go from NYC through NJ at usual highway speeds. This is the most stressless part of the drive, which I did not appreciate in full until I decided to try and see the I-95 interchange in PA, so I took the NJTP to 95 through Philly. I left with a new perspective on how amazing and spoiled we are for being able to go from DC/MD to NY without having to worry about Philly traffic for the most part (aside from DE, but that is another story).
Think about it, at some points you are within 10 miles of Center City, yet you would never it as it feels like you are in the country. You do not get anywhere close to the congestion or chaos like you would get within 15 miles of DC or NY, and it truly is a tribute to the ingenuity of the NJTP.
I thought to myself, how much worse and harder would it be going from VA to NYC all these years if I had to contend with local METRO Philly stop and go traffic? Never mind congestion, just all the exits. Sure the southern part of the NJTP only has 2 lanes, but rarely is it below highway speeds and you just do not get the weaving.
- Does anybody else think this way?
- How much a product of luck is it that we have a true skipover of METRO Philly? I mean, if NJ was not so proactive and the NJTP did not get built pre-interstate, would they really have built both 295 and NJTP or would we all have to travel on 295 and be subject to local congestion, weaving, and chaos like on 495 outside DC or 95 in VA or just about any other metro area?
- Isn't it a shame that nobody else really followed the NJ/Philly model of having a true road that bypasses?
It really is a world apart from Philly, especially Salem and Gloucester counties. I'd say it's not a product of luck so much as New Jersey's expert planning.
All I see is the forum getting cluttered up again with crappy threads recently.
Quote from: Rothman on June 19, 2024, 10:05:17 PMAll I see is the forum getting cluttered up again with crappy threads recently.
All I see is 0 for 3:
(https://imgur.com/sHJHq6G.jpg)
Quote from: bluecountry on June 19, 2024, 06:31:02 PM- Does anybody else think this way?
Actually I tend to think of it from the opposite point of view. Being from the Rochester, NY area which is effectively bypassed by the Thruway, I consider us fortunate not to have long distance and truck traffic mixing in with all the local traffic which would add to the congestion on our freeway network. Similarly, the NJTP not only makes for a better trip for the long distance travelers, it also reduces congestion for those that live and commute within the Philly metro.
Quote from: bluecountry on June 19, 2024, 06:31:02 PM- How much a product of luck is it that we have a true skipover of METRO Philly? I mean, if NJ was not so proactive and the NJTP did not get built pre-interstate, would they really have built both 295 and NJTP or would we all have to travel on 295 and be subject to local congestion, weaving, and chaos like on 495 outside DC or 95 in VA or just about any other metro area?
The fact that the NJTP was built first was great planning/foresight, but even if I-295 had become the only option it would likely be wider than it is now, and may have even ended up in the same 3+3/3+3 configuration that the Turnpike has now. It would still essentially serve as a Philly bypass that would still be a much better option than taking I-95 through Philly.
Quote from: bluecountry on June 19, 2024, 06:31:02 PM- Isn't it a shame that nobody else really followed the NJ/Philly model of having a true road that bypasses?
While the I-295/NJTP setup is unique, there are quite a few cities with total bypasses. I-80 bypasses Cleveland; I-80/I-90 bypasses Toledo; I-90 bypasses Rochester, and to a lesser degree, Syracuse; the NY Thruway bypasses Albany, (albeit with two different route numbers and one unnumbered section); and the PA Turnpike bypasses Pittsburgh, just to name a few.
California's pre-interstate freeway development was super extensive and focused on urban areas, so there really are only a few examples where total bypassing occurred:
- I-5 between Wheeler Ridge and Stockton, then from Stockton to Elk Grove, then from Sacramento International Airport to Red Bluff - the entire West Side Freeway corridor. Created ca. 1958 after removing planned I-5 from what was US 99 (now Route 99) from Wheeler Ridge to Sacramento.
Great for trucks, not so great for scenery (cue up that recent I-5 vs. Route 99 thread), which makes it amusing parts of the West Side Freeway do have the official California Scenic Highway designation.
---
- I-15 between Devore and Temecula. I-15 originally ended at I-10 in Colton with US 395 continuing south, then was planned to follow all of 395 to Temecula and San Diego (at least up to today's 163/15 junction, back then the proposed 395/103 split).
In the mid-1970s CalTrans redesignated existing/planned I-15 between Devore and Temecula as I-15E, later becoming I-215/temporary Route 215 in 1982. I-15 was instead shifted to follow what was the southernmost corridor of existing Route 71 (including a portion of former US 395) and the then-unbuilt Route 31 from Corona north to Devore.
Given the Riverside cloverleaf of 215/60/91 did not receive flyovers until about a decade and a half ago, having 15 as a through route to the west made sense to at least bypass that particular chokepoint.
===
Beyond that, full-area bypassing isn't much of a thing in California -
- I guess one can argue that 680 (and its predecessor Route 21) serves that role a little for those wanting to get from the South Bay to points north, but it doesn't bypass San Jose itself at all
- Even with I-80 now using the northern Natomas alignment for the last 40 years instead of the through-downtown/midtown US 50, 80 still goes firmly into developed parts of the City of Sacramento. And while Route 143 was proposed then canceled as a north-south bypass connecting Elk Grove with the 80/244/Business 80 interchange, the planned route still goes deep into suburbia.
- the Mid-State Tollway plan that would have connected 505/80 with 205/580 might be the closest to the concept, and that has been canceled.
- I-8 doesn't go into downtown San Diego but that is also mostly because US 80 (which I-8 generally replaced) dipped south with US 395 to get there, until the mid-1950s. I-8 ended up following US 80's later routing west to what is now the I-5/I-8 junction (at the time, US 101 at US 80). Route 94 gets closer to downtown as an east-west corridor, and at one point followed 80 and 395 to 101 in the downtown core.
- US 101 as a freeway has never gone through downtown San Jose, since its post-1964 routing followed what essentially was Bypass US 101 along the Bayshore corridor - but I-280, otherwise a bypass route from Cupertino to the 19th Avenue/Route 1 split in San Francisco/Daly City, becomes an urban connector, with Route 87 as a spur off of 101 from the north.
- 99 doesn't go through Stockton, Bakersfield, or Fresno's downtowns but is closely parallel to the pre-freeway historic US 99 surface streets in all of those locales. The Route 65 gap between Exeter and Roseville, while still on the books as a planned third north-south Central Valley highway, has never been filled in, save for the existing surface roads in Rancho Cordova that were slated to be on the route (Sunrise Boulevard) then ending up not becoming part of a signed highway.
- Route 102 was a one-time proposed northern bypass of Sacramento from I-80 in Auburn west to the 99/5 junction at Sacramento International Airport; while the Placer Parkway project has elements similar to this, it is a much shorter segment on a slightly different latitude than what 102 would have provided.
- A Route 138 upgrade was proposed as a Metropolitan Bypass Freeway project from Gorman southeast towards Palmdale and then to I-15 - a project that never made it off the drawing board, along with several other Antelope Valley proposals. The later High Desert Corridor in that area has also been nixed for the forseeable future.
The NJ Turnpike did right by only having two interchanges in the Delaware Valley area specifically Camden area. It kept development down to two places and any development in between is limited to local interstate 295.
Many cities sadly build bypasses which open the eyes of commissioners and greedy real estate moguls to use to their advantage to profit.
The scene in Back To School where Thornton Mellon gave the snobbish Professor a 101 in business is accurate. He stated real business men bribe their way to doing things and that is correct. The professor and his teaching the business world is legit Eisenhower a fantasy. Yes it's the right way, but not what's happening.
A real legitimate business does need to be built in fantasyland as we live in a crooked society.
Enough rant, but I have to say that NJ did proactively do something right in the alignment placement of their freeway.
Quote from: webny99 on June 19, 2024, 10:34:31 PMQuote from: Rothman on June 19, 2024, 10:05:17 PMAll I see is the forum getting cluttered up again with crappy threads recently.
All I see is 0 for 3:
(https://imgur.com/sHJHq6G.jpg)
You should take your own advice.
Anyone thinking that Gloucester County and South Jersey avoided congestion because of the Turnpike's lack of exits may need to look at Google's traffic maps, especially during rush hour. I've spent over 20 years dealing with daily 10-14 mile backups on 295, and delays exiting at Exit 3 off the Turnpike can be 20 minutes or greater some days.
Didn't there used to be a speed limit drop to 55 approaching the Philadelphia area just as there is one now approaching the New York area? I think the fact that it's 65 now all the way to the southern terminus contributes to the "Philly obliviousness"
Quote from: jeffandnicole on June 20, 2024, 11:29:58 PMAnyone thinking that Gloucester County and South Jersey avoided congestion because of the Turnpike's lack of exits may need to look at Google's traffic maps, especially during rush hour. I've spent over 20 years dealing with daily 10-14 mile backups on 295, and delays exiting at Exit 3 off the Turnpike can be 20 minutes or greater some days.
The only traffic I see is sometimes at exit 4 the drop from 3 to 2, and yes from 1 to 4 traffic maybe at 65 MPH not 85.
I really think this was a genius design that no other major market did (DC, NY).
I mean you really would never guess on the NJTP you are in the equivalent of Tysons or Springfield in terms of the urban core.
I am always amazed with how unbuilt up Salem and Gloucester County are, part of me thinks this is less the NJTP design and more a product of the lack of Philly growth and demand that otherwise would have consumed the land.
I also feel if not for NJ's ingenuity, had they waited til the interstate act, we would be stuck with all traffic on a 4 lane 295 and having to factor in Philly rush hour. We are so lucky and spoiled.
Quote from: bluecountryThink about it, at some points you are within 10 miles of Center City, yet you would never it as it feels like you are in the country. You do not get anywhere close to the congestion or chaos like you would get within 15 miles of DC or NY, and it truly is a tribute to the ingenuity of the NJTP.
The NJ Turnpike is pretty nice for the dual purposes it serves: as a bypass for the Philly-Trenton area as well as a
regional relief route for the Philly-Trenton area. A motorist can drive from the Wilmington area to NYC a lot faster on the NJTP than taking any combination of "free" highway routes.
As others have stated there are many other American cities that are bypassed by major turnpikes or freeways. A turnpike or freeway functioning as a larger regional relief route is more rare. It's possible to argue Florida's turnpike functions as an express/relief route for cities in Southeast Florida.
It is a bit surprising more relief freeways/tollways haven't been built in other parts of the nation. All the population growth and migration that has taken place in the past 20 or so years certainly calls for it. For instance, I think the US-281 corridor in Texas from San Antonio to Wichita Falls could function as a relief valve for I-35. Lots of trucks already use US-69 in Oklahoma as a shortcut from the DFW area to I-44, bypassing OKC and Tulsa in the process.
Quote from: bzakharin on June 21, 2024, 02:04:22 PMDidn't there used to be a speed limit drop to 55 approaching the Philadelphia area just as there is one now approaching the New York area? I think the fact that it's 65 now all the way to the southern terminus contributes to the "Philly obliviousness"
No, never a drop
Quote from: Bobby5280 on June 21, 2024, 03:59:23 PMIt is a bit surprising more relief freeways/tollways haven't been built in other parts of the nation. All the population growth and migration that has taken place in the past 20 or so years certainly calls for it.
I think it really depends on how gung-ho a state is for this sort of thing AND a mixture of local and regional willingness to have a highway be be built that doesn't itself become a development corridor.
Since I mentioned California earlier, I feel like the Mid-State Tollway project - which is not even that long mileage-wise - would be one of the few proposed within the last 30 years to fit that description, in that case a way to completely avoid both the heart of the Bay Area and metro Sacrmento - and it's been canceled for years.
On the other hand, would Texas's SH 130 be an example of a recent build of this philosophy - an eastern bypass of Austin that goes through very sparsely developed territory? Though I recall that highway, despite its elevated speed limit, has had trouble meeting revenue goals.
Route 125 in San Diego almost could fit this thread (and itself has revenue problems) but its northernmost segment from Route 54 onwards is very suburban.
Floridas Turnpike to I-95 is the same as the NJ Turnpike to I-295.
Between Jupiter and Stuart, the two freeways run parallel. In fact at the Martin/ Palm Beach County Line SB I-95's Entering Palm Beach County is on the flip side of the NB Turnpike's Entering Martin County sign. These two routes are a lot closer than the NJ Turnpike and I-295.
https://www.aaroads.com/fl/095/i-095-s-exit-087-2.jpg (https://www.aaroads.com/fl/095/i-095-s-exit-087-2.jpg)(https://www.aaroads.com/fl/095/i-095-s-exit-087-2.jpg)
(https://www.aaroads.com/fl/091/fl-tpk_nb_exit_133_03.jpg)
Quote from: TheStrangerI think it really depends on how gung-ho a state is for this sort of thing AND a mixture of local and regional willingness to have a highway be be built that doesn't itself become a development corridor.
Turnpikes can be designed where they don't become magnets for commercial and residential development. If the exits are few and far between that tends to cut down on development appeal. Some turnpikes incorporate service plazas to make up for the lack of development near the exits.
I think the Oklahoma Turnpike Authority might end up altering that design model with its ACCESS Oklahoma plans. They plan to add around a dozen new exits along the I-44 turnpikes between Lawton and Joplin. Cashless tolling technology eliminates the need to have manned toll booths, buildings, complicated trumpet ramp designs, etc. All they need now is just the metal toll gantries. The multitude of new exits along the highway is going to make it more attractive for developers to build near the turnpike exits.
Quote from: TheStrangerOn the other hand, would Texas's SH 130 be an example of a recent build of this philosophy - an eastern bypass of Austin that goes through very sparsely developed territory? Though I recall that highway, despite its elevated speed limit, has had trouble meeting revenue goals.
There's no doubt the intended purpose for TX-130 was a relief/express route around the Austin area. There are multiple reasons why the turnpike has missed revenue goals. First of all, unlike the New Jersey Turnpike, the TX-130 route is not very direct at all. There are lots of bends and turns along the way. The South terminus at I-10 is well East of San Antonio. Despite the speed limits as high as 85mph a motorist may end up not saving much time at all versus staying on I-35. Why pay all those tolls if it's not going to result in big time and mileage savings? The morning and late afternoon rushes will be different; TX-130 would have an advantage there.
With all the expansions along I-35 that are either under construction or proposed those projects would further water down the appeal of using TX-130.
Quote from: bluecountry on June 21, 2024, 02:09:59 PMQuote from: jeffandnicole on June 20, 2024, 11:29:58 PMAnyone thinking that Gloucester County and South Jersey avoided congestion because of the Turnpike's lack of exits may need to look at Google's traffic maps, especially during rush hour. I've spent over 20 years dealing with daily 10-14 mile backups on 295, and delays exiting at Exit 3 off the Turnpike can be 20 minutes or greater some days.
I really think this was a genius design that no other major market did (DC, NY).
I mean you really would never guess on the NJTP you are in the equivalent of Tysons or Springfield in terms of the urban core...
...I also feel if not for NJ's ingenuity, had they waited til the interstate act, we would be stuck with all traffic on a 4 lane 295 and having to factor in Philly rush hour. We are so lucky and spoiled.
Much of the Northeast was caught in a similar predicament. There was a need for roads in the Northeast US that could handle greater volumes and faster speeds, but the feds weren't passing a much talked about interstate act. So they built highways and bridges, only to have the interstate highway act finally pass. Without a Jersey Turnpike, 95 in NJ probably would've been built fairly close to its original design, and the same with 295. But that, along with anything that would've happened later, is completely anyone's guess. And PennDOT, for what it's worth, took their good ol' time anyway on their interstates, so I could only imagine how the areas's traffic would've been.
Quote from: bluecountry on June 21, 2024, 02:09:59 PMI am always amazed with how unbuilt up Salem and Gloucester County are, part of me thinks this is less the NJTP design and more a product of the lack of Philly growth and demand that otherwise would have consumed the land.
I'm probably not going to win this argument with an outsider, but Gloucester County is built up more than many on the Turnpike realize. Sure, there's plenty of rural land the further south and east you go, and the trees alongside the Turnpike really do insulate the Turnpike from the surrounding area. But the county has its share of congestion and Philly-related traffic. There was quite a bit of growth from Philly, as evidenced by the 3 additional bridges that were built between the 1950's and 1970's serving the Philly area.
Quote from: bluecountry on June 21, 2024, 02:09:59 PMI also feel if not for NJ's ingenuity, had they waited til the interstate act, we would be stuck with all traffic on a 4 lane 295 and having to factor in Philly rush hour. We are so lucky and spoiled.
At least 295 from I-76/NJ 42 and points North was always 6 lanes. It was widened south of I-76 (technically, south of Interchange 24) in the early 1990s.
I'm glad Delaware built DE 1 to have limited exits like the exits for Smyrna being on the south and north ends and not connecting to DE 6. This way development stays on Route 13 and no one builds up the area outside town on Route 6 creating more big box retail and such.
Ditto with Dover, but now I see they did build ramps to DE 8 though. Still limiting interchanges at cities is the smart thing as proven by other roads of the same nature as the New Jersey Turnpike.
Quote from: Bobby5280 on June 21, 2024, 03:59:23 PMAs others have stated there are many other American cities that are bypassed by major turnpikes or freeways.
I-70 bypasses Dayton to the north, though there's been enough suburban growth, plus an airport exit added, since the highway was built that it was added as a control city between Columbus and Indianapolis. I think I-70 was built north of Dayton because the National Road, or US-40, was as well.
US 40 bypasses Dayton like US 42 bypasses Columbus. For some reason Ohio liked to keep some roads out of major cities.
Then again US 20 in New York bypasses Buffalo and Syracuse.
However, with US 20 and 42, their freeway counterparts do enter the cities they bypass.
Quote from: Bobby5280 on June 21, 2024, 03:59:23 PMQuote from: bluecountryThink about it, at some points you are within 10 miles of Center City, yet you would never it as it feels like you are in the country. You do not get anywhere close to the congestion or chaos like you would get within 15 miles of DC or NY, and it truly is a tribute to the ingenuity of the NJTP.
The NJ Turnpike is pretty nice for the dual purposes it serves: as a bypass for the Philly-Trenton area as well as a regional relief route for the Philly-Trenton area. A motorist can drive from the Wilmington area to NYC a lot faster on the NJTP than taking any combination of "free" highway routes.
As others have stated there are many other American cities that are bypassed by major turnpikes or freeways. A turnpike or freeway functioning as a larger regional relief route is more rare. It's possible to argue Florida's turnpike functions as an express/relief route for cities in Southeast Florida.
Quote from: jeffandnicole on June 22, 2024, 05:12:32 PMNo other major market like Philly (top 15) one can be within 10 miles of the core and yet be completely oblivious.
Quote from: bluecountry on June 21, 2024, 02:09:59 PMQuote from: jeffandnicole on June 20, 2024, 11:29:58 PMAnyone thinking that Gloucester County and South Jersey avoided congestion because of the Turnpike's lack of exits may need to look at Google's traffic maps, especially during rush hour. I've spent over 20 years dealing with daily 10-14 mile backups on 295, and delays exiting at Exit 3 off the Turnpike can be 20 minutes or greater some days.
I really think this was a genius design that no other major market did (DC, NY).
I mean you really would never guess on the NJTP you are in the equivalent of Tysons or Springfield in terms of the urban core...
...I also feel if not for NJ's ingenuity, had they waited til the interstate act, we would be stuck with all traffic on a 4 lane 295 and having to factor in Philly rush hour. We are so lucky and spoiled.
Much of the Northeast was caught in a similar predicament. There was a need for roads in the Northeast US that could handle greater volumes and faster speeds, but the feds weren't passing a much talked about interstate act. So they built highways and bridges, only to have the interstate highway act finally pass. Without a Jersey Turnpike, 95 in NJ probably would've been built fairly close to its original design, and the same with 295. But that, along with anything that would've happened later, is completely anyone's guess. And PennDOT, for what it's worth, took their good ol' time anyway on their interstates, so I could only imagine how the areas's traffic would've been.
Quote from: bluecountry on June 21, 2024, 02:09:59 PMI am always amazed with how unbuilt up Salem and Gloucester County are, part of me thinks this is less the NJTP design and more a product of the lack of Philly growth and demand that otherwise would have consumed the land.
I'm probably not going to win this argument with an outsider, but Gloucester County is built up more than many on the Turnpike realize. Sure, there's plenty of rural land the further south and east you go, and the trees alongside the Turnpike really do insulate the Turnpike from the surrounding area. But the county has its share of congestion and Philly-related traffic. There was quite a bit of growth from Philly, as evidenced by the 3 additional bridges that were built between the 1950's and 1970's serving the Philly area.
Quote from: bluecountry on June 21, 2024, 02:09:59 PMI also feel if not for NJ's ingenuity, had they waited til the interstate act, we would be stuck with all traffic on a 4 lane 295 and having to factor in Philly rush hour. We are so lucky and spoiled.
At least 295 from I-76/NJ 42 and points North was always 6 lanes. It was widened south of I-76 (technically, south of Interchange 24) in the early 1990s.
Go to google satellite maps, do a 15 miles radius from NYC, Boston, DC and compare it to a 15 miles radius of Philly to the east in South Jersey. The difference in development is striking.
In your view, if NJ did not preempt the interstate act with the NJTP, if they waited like PA, MD, what would it be like driving the NY to DC corridor? I imagine we would have just a larger I-295 and it would be like driving I-95 in VA.
One aspect of all of this is some of the history.
FDR had planned a system of toll roads, basically three E-W and three N-S across the counrty. While they could be used for city to city travel, they purposefully were routed away from the cities so that the high speed roads would always be high speed, and local connectors were needed to get to the cities.
Now there was no funding for this, and it was also established that there would be no demand for such a system in the most rural areas of the country, but of course, parts of the designed system were built explaining why the oldest pre-interstate toll roads completely bypassed Philly, Pittsburgh, Cleveland, Buffalo, etc. as others have stated earlier.
So it was a phenomenal design to route NJTP in such a way that it doesn't even blink for Philly issues. It is across a river and across toll bridges so it is unaffected, even though a normal bypass like 476 would be somewhat affected.
And it is a shame that when the interstate highways were finally proposed by Ike, in order to get passed by Congress, it was redesigned to service the cities more directly. Beltways were also developed as a means of bypassing, but one of the problems with a typical beltway is that it was longer in distance than simply going through the center. So even long distance traffic would go through the center and since the Beltways had so many exits, they encouraged suburban development. Until recently, toll roads had far fewer exits becuase of the extra costs involved of creating all of the toll plazas. This limited development and kept the road as a long distance bypass with little development.
Quote from: mrsman on July 03, 2024, 02:38:08 PM.... and since the Beltways had so many exits, they encouraged suburban development. ...
This is definitely one of the key points. Even though the Capital Beltway works better than going straight through DC (due primarily to I-95 never having been finished, of course), it is nevertheless often referred to as the DC area's "Main Street." It's kind of striking when you look at maps how often a beltway has become a route through an area due to growth, rather than a route around an area. That's not unique to Interstate beltways, of course; the Charlottesville bypass, especially the US-250 portion east of where US-29 splits off, is a fine example of a road built a long time ago that no longer bypasses the area due to ongoing growth.
Quote from: 1995hoo on July 03, 2024, 03:44:53 PMQuote from: mrsman on July 03, 2024, 02:38:08 PM.... and since the Beltways had so many exits, they encouraged suburban development. ...
This is definitely one of the key points. Even though the Capital Beltway works better than going straight through DC (due primarily to I-95 never having been finished, of course), it is nevertheless often referred to as the DC area's "Main Street." It's kind of striking when you look at maps how often a beltway has become a route through an area due to growth, rather than a route around an area. That's not unique to Interstate beltways, of course; the Charlottesville bypass, especially the US-250 portion east of where US-29 splits off, is a fine example of a road built a long time ago that no longer bypasses the area due to ongoing growth.
The "through the area thing" is what define I-405 in LA (which I think I and others talked about a bit in the "bypasses/beltways that work" thread earlier this month).
Since you're local to the area, I wonder: from Beltsville to the Springfield Interchange (basically from each end of where 95 meets 495), have traffic patterns changed enough since I-695's completion in DC to make the 295/695/395 route (the future DC 295 to I-395 route) better at some times of day, than following the east half of the Beltway?
Quote from: roadman65 on June 23, 2024, 08:17:55 AMUS 40 bypasses Dayton like US 42 bypasses Columbus. For some reason Ohio liked to keep some roads out of major cities.
Then again US 20 in New York bypasses Buffalo and Syracuse.
However, with US 20 and 42, their freeway counterparts do enter the cities they bypass.
US routes were applied to existing surface routes, whereas Interstates were built as new alignments. US 40 was intended to follow the National Road in the eastern part of the country, so it went where the National Road went and didn't go where the National Road didn't. That's why US 40 doesn't serve Dayton - it wasn't on the National Road.
At the time US 42 was created, Columbus was much less significant than it is today. It's population was about 1/4 Cleveland's and about half of Cincinnati. Ohio had OH 3, which did (and continues to) connect Cleveland, Cincinnati, and Columbus. US 42 was not a single route prior to its designation, but its alignment was shorter than going through Columbus, which I suspect is why it was routed as it did.
Quote from: TheStranger on July 13, 2024, 02:04:50 AMQuote from: 1995hoo on July 03, 2024, 03:44:53 PMQuote from: mrsman on July 03, 2024, 02:38:08 PM.... and since the Beltways had so many exits, they encouraged suburban development. ...
This is definitely one of the key points. Even though the Capital Beltway works better than going straight through DC (due primarily to I-95 never having been finished, of course), it is nevertheless often referred to as the DC area's "Main Street." It's kind of striking when you look at maps how often a beltway has become a route through an area due to growth, rather than a route around an area. That's not unique to Interstate beltways, of course; the Charlottesville bypass, especially the US-250 portion east of where US-29 splits off, is a fine example of a road built a long time ago that no longer bypasses the area due to ongoing growth.
The "through the area thing" is what define I-405 in LA (which I think I and others talked about a bit in the "bypasses/beltways that work" thread earlier this month).
Since you're local to the area, I wonder: from Beltsville to the Springfield Interchange (basically from each end of where 95 meets 495), have traffic patterns changed enough since I-695's completion in DC to make the 295/695/395 route (the future DC 295 to I-395 route) better at some times of day, than following the east half of the Beltway?
I don't drive to that area of Maryland often enough to be certain, but my general sense is "not really," in part because DC-295 is not a very good road, in part because of heavy commuter traffic and relatively frequent accidents on the DC portion of I-395, in part because the timing can be so fickle if something is going on in DC like a baseball or soccer game (both located near the highway), and in part because if you're headed northbound there's just about always a backup approaching the 14th Street Bridge (unless you pay the toll for the express lanes).
Quote from: mrsman on July 03, 2024, 02:38:08 PMOne aspect of all of this is some of the history.
FDR had planned a system of toll roads, basically three E-W and three N-S across the counrty. While they could be used for city to city travel, they purposefully were routed away from the cities so that the high speed roads would always be high speed, and local connectors were needed to get to the cities.
Now there was no funding for this, and it was also established that there would be no demand for such a system in the most rural areas of the country, but of course, parts of the designed system were built explaining why the oldest pre-interstate toll roads completely bypassed Philly, Pittsburgh, Cleveland, Buffalo, etc. as others have stated earlier.
So it was a phenomenal design to route NJTP in such a way that it doesn't even blink for Philly issues. It is across a river and across toll bridges so it is unaffected, even though a normal bypass like 476 would be somewhat affected.
And it is a shame that when the interstate highways were finally proposed by Ike, in order to get passed by Congress, it was redesigned to service the cities more directly. Beltways were also developed as a means of bypassing, but one of the problems with a typical beltway is that it was longer in distance than simply going through the center. So even long distance traffic would go through the center and since the Beltways had so many exits, they encouraged suburban development. Until recently, toll roads had far fewer exits becuase of the extra costs involved of creating all of the toll plazas. This limited development and kept the road as a long distance bypass with little development.
Bolded. Yes, and it still amazes me and I think is undervalued just how fortunate we are to have this road which completely misses any Philly metro issues. Do they even cover the NJTP regularly on Philly traffic reports?
Quote from: 1995hoo on July 13, 2024, 10:43:40 AMQuote from: TheStranger on July 13, 2024, 02:04:50 AMQuote from: 1995hoo on July 03, 2024, 03:44:53 PMQuote from: mrsman on July 03, 2024, 02:38:08 PM.... and since the Beltways had so many exits, they encouraged suburban development. ...
This is definitely one of the key points. Even though the Capital Beltway works better than going straight through DC (due primarily to I-95 never having been finished, of course), it is nevertheless often referred to as the DC area's "Main Street." It's kind of striking when you look at maps how often a beltway has become a route through an area due to growth, rather than a route around an area. That's not unique to Interstate beltways, of course; the Charlottesville bypass, especially the US-250 portion east of where US-29 splits off, is a fine example of a road built a long time ago that no longer bypasses the area due to ongoing growth.
The "through the area thing" is what define I-405 in LA (which I think I and others talked about a bit in the "bypasses/beltways that work" thread earlier this month).
Since you're local to the area, I wonder: from Beltsville to the Springfield Interchange (basically from each end of where 95 meets 495), have traffic patterns changed enough since I-695's completion in DC to make the 295/695/395 route (the future DC 295 to I-395 route) better at some times of day, than following the east half of the Beltway?
I don't drive to that area of Maryland often enough to be certain, but my general sense is "not really," in part because DC-295 is not a very good road, in part because of heavy commuter traffic and relatively frequent accidents on the DC portion of I-395, in part because the timing can be so fickle if something is going on in DC like a baseball or soccer game (both located near the highway), and in part because if you're headed northbound there's just about always a backup approaching the 14th Street Bridge (unless you pay the toll for the express lanes).
Thanks for the local perspective!
For my own entertainment I looked at Google Maps to see what it recommends northbound at this hour (2:27 PM Eastern) from Springfield to Baltimore.
- the fastest route...uses none of 95 or the vast majority of MD 295/BWP north of the beltway! The fastest route is 95/495 on east side of Beltway, then 50, then I-97, then finally a short snippet of MD 295 to get into town, 68 miles at 1 hour 37 minutes.
- The other two suggested routes are:
West side of the Beltway + 95 = 2 hours 3 minutes, 59 miles
395 to 695 to 295 = 2 hours 3 minutes as well, but only 52 miles
I then did the same search on Google Maps but southbound:
- The fastest route Google reccommends is 295 south to the Beltway, then 495/95 south to Springfield, 1 hour 22 minutes at 58 miles
- Both the 295/695/395 route and the 95 to west half of Beltway route are 1 hour 27 minutes.
Heh, on Saturday my wife was driving home from Hershey and messed up the routing because she listened to her sat-nav instead of paying attention to the signs—she had wanted to take US-15 south to I-270, but her sat-nav told her to use southbound I-83 and she followed it before realizing which road it was using. So rather than turning around, she took I-83 down to Baltimore and then I-95 to the Beltway. When she got home, she was complaining that it then told her to exit onto the BW Parkway to head down through DC instead of just staying on the Beltway (at that point she ignored it and took the Beltway). She doesn't pay the extra to have the traffic data enabled on her sat-nav, so it was almost certainly going purely on "shortest distance."
Quote from: bluecountry on July 15, 2024, 01:37:17 PMDo they even cover the NJTP regularly on Philly traffic reports?
Before the widening between exits 6 and 9, there would be a regular northbound traffic jam between exits 6 and 8 which would always be mentioned on Philly traffic reports.
Quote from: bzakharin on July 16, 2024, 10:57:38 AMQuote from: bluecountry on July 15, 2024, 01:37:17 PMDo they even cover the NJTP regularly on Philly traffic reports?
Before the widening between exits 6 and 9, there would be a regular northbound traffic jam between exits 6 and 8 which would always be mentioned on Philly traffic reports.
And when there's an issue on the Turnpike further south, it's mentioned. Philly reporters don't take offense either Turnpike (NJ & PA) bypasses the city.
Personally, the traffic reports city-wide aren't great to begin with, but that's another story.
I have also been struck by how much the NJTP feels like the farthest thing from Philadelphia even though it passes directly through its metropolitan area and is a major part of the northeast corridor. Heck, it only had one exit that even directly connected to Philly until 95 was semi-completed in Bucks County.
A few reasons why include the obvious fact that it's a toll road; fewer exits; free alternatives (95 and 295); the fact it was completed before the other highways and not in response to suburban growth; and perhaps Philadelphia's second city status (judging by the fact that there was no direct connection between NYC and Philly for over half a century).
Quote from: Ted$8roadFan on July 18, 2024, 05:41:35 AMperhaps Philadelphia's second city status (judging by the fact that there was no direct connection between NYC and Philly for over half a century).
This is an interesting case of "chicken vs. egg". Philly obviously hasn't always been a second city dating back to the late 18th and 19th centuries. So was it already a second city prior to the 1950's, or did it start to feel that way only once it was completely bypassed by the Turnpike?
Quote from: Ted$8roadFan on July 18, 2024, 05:41:35 AMI have also been struck by how much the NJTP feels like the farthest thing from Philadelphia even though it passes directly through its metropolitan area and is a major part of the northeast corridor. Heck, it only had one exit that even directly connected to Philly until 95 was semi-completed in Bucks County.
A few reasons why include the obvious fact that it's a toll road; fewer exits; free alternatives (95 and 295); the fact it was completed before the other highways and not in response to suburban growth; and perhaps Philadelphia's second city status (judging by the fact that there was no direct connection between NYC and Philly for over half a century).
I think much of this feel comes from not seeing what's actually around the highway due to the tree curtain on either side of the highway. Since the Turnpike has ROW on either side of the highway that is not used yet which preserves that curtain. Though that does seem to be less in the winter when some trees have no leaves. I fear this feel will go away in some places with the coming widening when much of those trees within the ROW are cut down.
Quote from: Ted$8roadFan on July 18, 2024, 05:41:35 AMI have also been struck by how much the NJTP feels like the farthest thing from Philadelphia even though it passes directly through its metropolitan area and is a major part of the northeast corridor. Heck, it only had one exit that even directly connected to Philly until 95 was semi-completed in Bucks County.
A few reasons why include the obvious fact that it's a toll road; fewer exits; free alternatives (95 and 295); the fact it was completed before the other highways and not in response to suburban growth; and perhaps Philadelphia's second city status (judging by the fact that there was no direct connection between NYC and Philly for over half a century).
Quote from: BrianP on July 18, 2024, 11:36:24 AMI think it reflects the slang term for Philly, "BosRoit" (Boston-Detroit), whereas Center City is flourishing but other areas have more similarities to industrial decline.
What I mean is, take Long Island. Prior to suburbanization it was very much like South Jersey:
- East of the city, a lot of wetlands, no major rivers, opposite direction of most rail service (west).
Prior to post WWII Long Island like South Jersey sparsely populated and developed. This led to Long Island having a lot available land which quickly got consumed by housing due to the demand and vibrancy of the market.
South Jersey, well the railroads mainly headed west, which is where development originally followed. Post WWII, metro Philly had more land available to satisfy suburban demand (since it is not a peninsula like NY) which lowered the need to conquer the "boonies" in Jersey. But moreover, Philly is smaller but still a market; however it has not boomed. It has not really grown and that I think is why South Jersey has relatively speaking remained low density. I mean if you 25 miles west of Philly you are in the heart of the suburbs but on the NJTP you would never you are so close.
Quote from: Ted$8roadFan on July 18, 2024, 05:41:35 AMI have also been struck by how much the NJTP feels like the farthest thing from Philadelphia even though it passes directly through its metropolitan area and is a major part of the northeast corridor. Heck, it only had one exit that even directly connected to Philly until 95 was semi-completed in Bucks County.
A few reasons why include the obvious fact that it's a toll road; fewer exits; free alternatives (95 and 295); the fact it was completed before the other highways and not in response to suburban growth; and perhaps Philadelphia's second city status (judging by the fact that there was no direct connection between NYC and Philly for over half a century).
I think much of this feel comes from not seeing what's actually around the highway due to the tree curtain on either side of the highway. Since the Turnpike has ROW on either side of the highway that is not used yet which preserves that curtain. Though that does seem to be less in the winter when some trees have no leaves. I fear this feel will go away in some places with the coming widening when much of those trees within the ROW are cut down.
I disagree. First I can see on my maps how little there is south of exit 3.
Second, the development I do see is mostly very low density which is common in small markets or further out. Tress would not block apartment buildings, big offices, etc.
For the record, I love Philly, having once lived there. But there is something to its left-behind nature (perhaps more appropriate for another thread).
Quote from: webny99 on July 18, 2024, 08:48:27 AMQuote from: Ted$8roadFan on July 18, 2024, 05:41:35 AMperhaps Philadelphia's second city status (judging by the fact that there was no direct connection between NYC and Philly for over half a century).
This is an interesting case of "chicken vs. egg". Philly obviously hasn't always been a second city dating back to the late 18th and 19th centuries. So was it already a second city prior to the 1950's, or did it start to feel that way only once it was completely bypassed by the Turnpike?
Being so close to New York, yet so dwarfed by its size, it feels like a 2nd city.
It certainly gets the shaft by so many travelers going by it just several miles away and never realizing it. Due to the tree-line along the Turnpike and its tendency to have been built slightly below the existing grade in areas, the city is never visible to travelers.
On the parallel I-295, around Exit 23, and between Exit 25 & 26, there's a momentary view but you have to look away from the road to see it.
Working the Exit 1 toll plaza on the NJ Turnpike (this is back in 2000-2003), I had numerous SB drivers asking how much further to Philly. They weren't pleased when I told them they passed it about a half-hour ago, trying to explain that Exits 3 & 4 were marked for Philly. Of course, they also weren't familiar with how 95 'disappeared' from the Turnpike either, so they were expecting the highway to lead them directly into the city. I usually instructed them to continue into Delaware, then follow signs for I-495 North which was marked for Philadelphia.
For what its worth, when there were larger events - say sports teams from Philly & New York playing each other, they would reference it as a Turnpike series/game, relating the connection of the NJ Turnpike, even though it never entered either city (although very close to the Giants/Jets stadiums).
Quote from: 1995hoo on July 13, 2024, 10:43:40 AMQuote from: TheStranger on July 13, 2024, 02:04:50 AMQuote from: 1995hoo on July 03, 2024, 03:44:53 PMQuote from: mrsman on July 03, 2024, 02:38:08 PM.... and since the Beltways had so many exits, they encouraged suburban development. ...
This is definitely one of the key points. Even though the Capital Beltway works better than going straight through DC (due primarily to I-95 never having been finished, of course), it is nevertheless often referred to as the DC area's "Main Street." It's kind of striking when you look at maps how often a beltway has become a route through an area due to growth, rather than a route around an area. That's not unique to Interstate beltways, of course; the Charlottesville bypass, especially the US-250 portion east of where US-29 splits off, is a fine example of a road built a long time ago that no longer bypasses the area due to ongoing growth.
The "through the area thing" is what define I-405 in LA (which I think I and others talked about a bit in the "bypasses/beltways that work" thread earlier this month).
Since you're local to the area, I wonder: from Beltsville to the Springfield Interchange (basically from each end of where 95 meets 495), have traffic patterns changed enough since I-695's completion in DC to make the 295/695/395 route (the future DC 295 to I-395 route) better at some times of day, than following the east half of the Beltway?
I don't drive to that area of Maryland often enough to be certain, but my general sense is "not really," in part because DC-295 is not a very good road, in part because of heavy commuter traffic and relatively frequent accidents on the DC portion of I-395, in part because the timing can be so fickle if something is going on in DC like a baseball or soccer game (both located near the highway), and in part because if you're headed northbound there's just about always a backup approaching the 14th Street Bridge (unless you pay the toll for the express lanes).
My experiences tell me to avoid the 395/695/295 routing. The crossing of the Potomac on 395 is extremely bad and backed up as 1995hoo mentioned. The merger of 695 into 295 is also pretty lousy. The combined traffic of 695 and 295 into northbound DC-295 is down to 2 lanes in the NB direction. (It widens to 3 after East Capitol Street). That squeeze is also a big slow point. So much so that a lot of traffic even from Downtown DC will still use Independence Ave to East Capitol to DC-295 instead of I-695 to avoid that traffic squeeze. A similar traffic squeeze occurs where New York Ave traffic merges in at US 50. Thru traffic had to do a lot of lane changes and essentially there are points along the way where you don't even have two consistent lanes to make it all the way between Springfield and Greenbelt. The Beltway routings are far more consistent and really should be used instead when traveling between MD and VA unless your destination is well within the Beltway like Crystal City or Downtown DC.
In short, it is nice having an expressway/parkway routing through town, but it is far more deficient of a routing than what I-95 would have been as can be seen in how 95 is effective as a thru-town route for Baltimore or Philly.
I live closest to the Georgia Ave exit of the Beltway, so pretty much any VA trip means taking 495 via the American Legion Bridge and then exiting from there. As I don't commute to VA, I'm rarely doing this drive during morning rush hour, so the drive is pretty good to stay on Beltway to Springfield or to exit onto GW Pkwy or I-66 to get into Arlington.
Here's a video praising the design of the NJTP for much of the reasons that OP has cited.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fXFfQl-upz8