Interesting article from Wired about how automakers are having to contend with figuring out how long to support software features and how to ensure that they'll work that long. It looks like we might be looking at planned obsolescence for cars like we already do for phones (and, for people who don't run Linux, desktop/laptop computers). What's missing from the article, however, are the security implications of a car that's connected to the internet but not receiving updates. This is especially noteworthy as cars aren't more secure than phones or desktop/laptop computers - the automakers actually have a reputation for making software that's LESS secure. A LOT less.
https://www.wired.com/story/cars-are-now-rolling-computers-so-how-long-will-they-get-updates-automakers-cant-say/
I am part of the users whose vehicle no longer has OnStar support. The reason? 3G support which was a very much a viable option when my vehicle was first put into production, is no longer supported by any of the mobile providers, and there is no way to upgrade the radio to support 4G. My vehicle was assembled in May, 2013.
Quote from: vdeane on July 28, 2024, 05:22:38 PMIt looks like we might be looking at planned obsolescence for cars...
If there's one way to shock the US into becoming a transit-oriented country, it's this. New cars are already expensive enough that a lot of people can't afford them and can only afford used cars. (And even used cars are too expensive for some Gen Zers.) If the used-car market gets destroyed by a profit grab in the form of planned obsolescence, car ownership will be out of reach for enough people that you then have critical mass for cities that don't have trains to start getting them.
I would hope for some upgradeability to be designed into the cars. EU mandates certain support window for parts, concept can be extended to feature support as well.
I am not sure Android Auto and Bluetooth would age nicely as well.
My humble opinion is that some standardized entertainment units, which could be upgraded without affecting core functions like engine ignition control, should become the thing.
Quote from: ZLoth on July 28, 2024, 07:32:35 PMI am part of the users whose vehicle no longer has OnStar support. The reason? 3G support which was a very much a viable option when my vehicle was first put into production, is no longer supported by any of the mobile providers, and there is no way to upgrade the radio to support 4G. My vehicle was assembled in May, 2013.
The MyLink system on my 2014 Sonic went bust when I was approaching 100,000 miles. I never bothered to fix it given the car was old and there was nothing broken that made it go. I would imagine my feelings to my current aged car will still be predicated on whether or not it is mechanically sound.
Quote from: vdeane on July 28, 2024, 05:22:38 PMInteresting article from Wired about how automakers are having to contend with figuring out how long to support software features and how to ensure that they'll work that long. It looks like we might be looking at planned obsolescence for cars like we already do for phones (and, for people who don't run Linux, desktop/laptop computers). What's missing from the article, however, are the security implications of a car that's connected to the internet but not receiving updates. This is especially noteworthy as cars aren't more secure than phones or desktop/laptop computers - the automakers actually have a reputation for making software that's LESS secure. A LOT less.
https://www.wired.com/story/cars-are-now-rolling-computers-so-how-long-will-they-get-updates-automakers-cant-say/
As I said over on Facebook, this is partially why I'm doing everything I can to keep my 2007 Camry on the road, because I'm concerned about the hackability of today's much more computer-integrated vehicles. It seems that more and more automakers are going down Tesla's road of having a completely "smart" car (not to be confused with Smart cars, also known as "certain death if you're ever involved in a collision"), beyond just having radio/multimedia/GPS displays that are basically tablets. The 2025 Camry (only available as a hybrid) has a completely computerized HUD with no analog gauges or speed/tachometers - if that breaks you basically have a brick.
Just like with 'touchscreen' controls, could this also result in a public outcry for a return to the 'old school' way of doing things?
Mike
Well I can say this, collection agencies love this as they can repossess a car by using a GPS to find it.
The mechanics can see your driving habits to determine factors on what you do to create problems and such. They know when you need an oil change and such. Clark Howard says they use it to report common driving habits for whatever other reasons.
The car companies are not known for embracing the "latest and greatest" in technology, and some of the past choices in implementing technology have left some head scratching, including using some underpowered processors in the integrations. Then, you have certain companies who want to implement their own "smart solution" instead of utilizing the standard Android Auto or Carplay solutions already availalbe.
As for Bluetooth, the newer standards are backwards compatible with the older standards. It's here to stay since CD players are practically obsolete.
Meanwhile the consumer has to pay for this added shit to your vehicles. At one time computers were luxury items and an expensive option.
Even power windows were an option founded in cars except Lincoln's and Cadillacs where, for obvious reasons, were standard. Now they're standard to all buyers as we all know. Todays kids never heard of a window crank.
Quote from: mgk920 on July 29, 2024, 11:07:48 AMJust like with 'touchscreen' controls, could this also result in a public outcry for a return to the 'old school' way of doing things?
Mike
Public outcry is always attenuated by the masses swooned by shiny new objects.
Quote from: mgk920 on July 29, 2024, 11:07:48 AMJust like with 'touchscreen' controls, could this also result in a public outcry for a return to the 'old school' way of doing things?
Mike
It sort of did, at least for Civics. I have an '18 Civic Si which is almost all screen controlled and there was so much backlash (it's pretty bad) that they went back to some physical controls. So there's at least a little market correction now and then.
Someone once mentioned on line how Berets were for military men serving a certain amount time spent in service. Now they offer them to Privates, which got the poster upset as he considered it stolen valor to offer that to all military.
I consider technology nowadays to be that as at one time owning a piece of the latest was a result of hard work and savings to obtain it. Nowadays everyone can obtain it eliminating that satisfaction of owning that piece of equipment one felt upon purchasing it.
Cell phones are the perfect example. When I first got mine, the average Joe didn't have one due to the cost. So in essence I felt honored to own one. Now that our society demands cell phones, it gives me that stolen valor feeling and owning a phone is like " So What?"
Ditto with computers in cars. Now society forces automakers to produce them, not only are we all possessing what only those in higher incomes once could afford, but we are forced to be in more debt due to still pay for these items that we definitely can live without.
Comparing military "stolen valor" to owning technology framed as "stolen valor" is quite the thing.
Anyway, what you describe has been happening for quite a long time. New inventions that were once available only to those with resources become more commonplace as production costs decrease and supply increases.
There is always new technology to purchase if you want the status symbol that comes with it.
Henry Ford's wife, Clara, didn't drive a Ford car. Instead she drove a car made by Detroit Electric. That way she didn't need to use a crank start.
No cars have a crank start anymore today. The electric starter became ubiquitous - but it was not always so. For a while, it was a technology for the rich, used in luxury vehicles.
Just like any other part of technology, eventually the option becomes standard. In some cases, it's because the majority of buyers want that option, and it is less complex to build every car with the device than to skip it for a few.
It doesn't mean that something that's supposed to be exclusive it now available to the masses. It just means that technology has become more available.
Quote from: GaryV on July 30, 2024, 03:27:43 PMHenry Ford's wife, Clara, didn't drive a Ford car. Instead she drove a car made by Detroit Electric. That way she didn't need to use a crank start.
No cars have a crank start anymore today. The electric starter became ubiquitous - but it was not always so. For a while, it was a technology for the rich, used in luxury vehicles.
Just like any other part of technology, eventually the option becomes standard. In some cases, it's because the majority of buyers want that option, and it is less complex to build every car with the device than to skip it for a few.
It doesn't mean that something that's supposed to be exclusive it now available to the masses. It just means that technology has become more available.
If any thing seems to be typed by an Artificial Intelligence, it is that has been featured inside the quote box.
Quote from: In_Correct on July 31, 2024, 07:30:03 AMQuote from: GaryV on July 30, 2024, 03:27:43 PMHenry Ford's wife, Clara, didn't drive a Ford car. Instead she drove a car made by Detroit Electric. That way she didn't need to use a crank start.
No cars have a crank start anymore today. The electric starter became ubiquitous - but it was not always so. For a while, it was a technology for the rich, used in luxury vehicles.
Just like any other part of technology, eventually the option becomes standard. In some cases, it's because the majority of buyers want that option, and it is less complex to build every car with the device than to skip it for a few.
It doesn't mean that something that's supposed to be exclusive it now available to the masses. It just means that technology has become more available.
If any thing seems to be typed by an Artificial Intelligence, it is that has been featured inside the quote box.
I thought it was a good post. Very interesting and educational.
Agreed in many ways, ICE cars themselves at one time made the transition from 'rich mans' toys' to a practical transportation option. But even then such things can and do often go too far.
Mike
Quote from: Molandfreak on July 31, 2024, 10:45:31 AMQuote from: In_Correct on July 31, 2024, 07:30:03 AMQuote from: GaryV on July 30, 2024, 03:27:43 PMHenry Ford's wife, Clara, didn't drive a Ford car. Instead she drove a car made by Detroit Electric. That way she didn't need to use a crank start.
No cars have a crank start anymore today. The electric starter became ubiquitous - but it was not always so. For a while, it was a technology for the rich, used in luxury vehicles.
Just like any other part of technology, eventually the option becomes standard. In some cases, it's because the majority of buyers want that option, and it is less complex to build every car with the device than to skip it for a few.
It doesn't mean that something that's supposed to be exclusive it now available to the masses. It just means that technology has become more available.
If any thing seems to be typed by an Artificial Intelligence, it is that has been featured inside the quote box.
I thought it was a good post. Very interesting and educational.
Another One ?!
The actual interesting and educational is that the technology such as Dry Erase Marker Boards, Teleprinters, Even The Internet It Self, and even in the case of Automotible Engine ... The Battery Electric, and The Diesel Electric ... and other Hybrid Engines. ... have exist more than one century now.
I most certainly do not shun technology development. I love to drive Chain car. I shall refuse to be drive the Belt car ever again. Chain car is much better.
A C.V.T. Car is not better, thus I do not like it.
And this so called technology lacks development. It is poorly designed to begin with ... perhaps if you have a Linux ... Red Hat Enterprise Linux for example ... also I support Digital Federal Credit Union ...
And as for Windows, and for Web Browsers, there are peoples that kindly made it easier to use via Extensions and other Modifications to reduce the Unwanted Nonsense. If they are going to have software in every thing, do it right the first time. However, they do not even bother. And if they are not going to bother getting it right the first time with Automobiles, that results in many more Recalls.
The reaction to Unwanted Nonsense is unacceptable. Get the Ear Pieces out of your ears before it is too late.
I should wrap this up now. I do not want to risk being late.
I think you're the AI.
Quote from: hotdogPi on July 31, 2024, 04:15:10 PMI think you're the AI.
Maybe.
Because it's not me that's the AI. I'm not intelligent enough for that. I do have one artificial body part ...
You buy a new one, just like a computer.
Quote from: SSOWorld on July 31, 2024, 06:30:44 PMYou buy a new one, just like a computer.
Sure, cause everyone has $50,000 to spend every 4 years on a new model.
As I said above, if that's the business model the car manufacturers want to go with, all of a sudden transit will start to look real nice for a lot of people.
Quote from: Scott5114 on July 31, 2024, 08:12:26 PMQuote from: SSOWorld on July 31, 2024, 06:30:44 PMYou buy a new one, just like a computer.
Sure, cause everyone has $50,000 to spend every 4 years on a new model.
As I said above, if that's the business model the car manufacturers want to go with, all of a sudden transit will start to look real nice for a lot of people.
I'm pretty sure the business model they want to go with is making the car itself a subscription.
Quote from: vdeane on July 31, 2024, 10:29:28 PMQuote from: Scott5114 on July 31, 2024, 08:12:26 PMQuote from: SSOWorld on July 31, 2024, 06:30:44 PMYou buy a new one, just like a computer.
Sure, cause everyone has $50,000 to spend every 4 years on a new model.
As I said above, if that's the business model the car manufacturers want to go with, all of a sudden transit will start to look real nice for a lot of people.
I'm pretty sure the business model they want to go with is making the car itself a subscription.
Fuel, maintenance, insurance, and tag/registration are the existing subscription charges.
Quote from: Scott5114 on July 31, 2024, 08:12:26 PMQuote from: SSOWorld on July 31, 2024, 06:30:44 PMYou buy a new one, just like a computer.
Sure, cause everyone has $50,000 to spend every 4 years on a new model.
As I said above, if that's the business model the car manufacturers want to go with, all of a sudden transit will start to look real nice for a lot of people.
They'll go with older used vehicles instead. The average age and mileage of the typical vehicle will climb as people would rather maintain and keep than buy a new $50k car.
Quote from: vdeane on July 31, 2024, 10:29:28 PMQuote from: Scott5114 on July 31, 2024, 08:12:26 PMQuote from: SSOWorld on July 31, 2024, 06:30:44 PMYou buy a new one, just like a computer.
Sure, cause everyone has $50,000 to spend every 4 years on a new model.
As I said above, if that's the business model the car manufacturers want to go with, all of a sudden transit will start to look real nice for a lot of people.
I'm pretty sure the business model they want to go with is making the car itself a subscription.
it is called "lease"
Quote from: SSOWorld on July 31, 2024, 06:30:44 PMYou buy a new one, just like a computer.
Cars are much more expensive than personal computers, and most of purchase a car, pay off the loan, and then drive it until it no longer runs which is about 15-20 years. I know personally that I cannot afford a new car until I get my home paid off, and that won't occur until early 2030. That means I have to TLC of my existing vehicles and cross my fingers.
Quote from: kalvado on August 01, 2024, 07:53:22 AMQuote from: vdeane on July 31, 2024, 10:29:28 PMQuote from: Scott5114 on July 31, 2024, 08:12:26 PMQuote from: SSOWorld on July 31, 2024, 06:30:44 PMYou buy a new one, just like a computer.
Sure, cause everyone has $50,000 to spend every 4 years on a new model.
As I said above, if that's the business model the car manufacturers want to go with, all of a sudden transit will start to look real nice for a lot of people.
I'm pretty sure the business model they want to go with is making the car itself a subscription.
it is called "lease"
That's what they're currently pushing, but the long-term goal is self-driving cars that you would summon on a phone app when you want one.
If you live in an area with little to no road salting and not literally on the coast, as long as the body stays painted and not wrecked, there's no reason that a replacement/rebuilt engine or transmission wouldn't keep a 10 year or older car on the road. Tech is just a distraction and source of obsolescence. Besides, other than the tiny screen, a smartphone is imminently more useful than anything OEMs put into cars anymore as long as you at least have a Bluetooth headunit.
Quote from: vdeane on July 31, 2024, 10:29:28 PMQuote from: Scott5114 on July 31, 2024, 08:12:26 PMQuote from: SSOWorld on July 31, 2024, 06:30:44 PMYou buy a new one, just like a computer.
Sure, cause everyone has $50,000 to spend every 4 years on a new model.
As I said above, if that's the business model the car manufacturers want to go with, all of a sudden transit will start to look real nice for a lot of people.
I'm pretty sure the business model they want to go with is making the car itself a subscription.
If I wanted to lease a car, I would have done so already.
I'm a buy it new and then drive it until it falls apart guy.
Quote from: MikieTimT on August 01, 2024, 01:43:45 PMIf you live in an area with little to no road salting and not literally on the coast, as long as the body stays painted and not wrecked, there's no reason that a replacement/rebuilt engine or transmission wouldn't keep a 10 year or older car on the road. Tech is just a distraction and source of obsolescence. Besides, other than the tiny screen, a smartphone is imminently more useful than anything OEMs put into cars anymore as long as you at least have a Bluetooth headunit.
I always thought that computer control is primarily about drivetrain tuning and diagnostics. Everything else is bells and whistles.
Quote from: Scott5114 on July 31, 2024, 08:12:26 PMQuote from: SSOWorld on July 31, 2024, 06:30:44 PMYou buy a new one, just like a computer.
Sure, cause everyone has $50,000 to spend every 4 years on a new model.
As I said above, if that's the business model the car manufacturers want to go with, all of a sudden transit will start to look real nice for a lot of people.
1. Most Americans own their cars for more than five years.
https://www.thezebra.com/resources/driving/average-length-of-car-ownership/
2. You can buy a used car at a lower price.
3. You can choose to lease instead.
Car companies know what they are doing. They know that they will push out the high margin new cars that people want, and the used car and lease market will take care of those who want to (or have to) spend less.
Quote from: SEWIGuy on August 02, 2024, 08:47:41 AMQuote from: Scott5114 on July 31, 2024, 08:12:26 PMQuote from: SSOWorld on July 31, 2024, 06:30:44 PMYou buy a new one, just like a computer.
Sure, cause everyone has $50,000 to spend every 4 years on a new model.
As I said above, if that's the business model the car manufacturers want to go with, all of a sudden transit will start to look real nice for a lot of people.
1. Most Americans own their cars for more than five years.
https://www.thezebra.com/resources/driving/average-length-of-car-ownership/
2. You can buy a used car at a lower price.
3. You can choose to lease instead.
Car companies know what they are doing. They know that they will push out the high margin new cars that people want, and the used car and lease market will take care of those who want to (or have to) spend less.
How does buying used or keeping a car longer change the software no longer being updated? At best you're looking at functionality going away as it falls out of support (potentially with nagging from the car company), but it's also a security concern as security vulnerabilities go unaddressed. There's a reason why many people who are familiar with technology won't keep devices that are connected to the internet and are no longer recieving updates.
And yes, car companies are aggressively pushing leases, but I hardly want to live in a world where all cars are a lease. I could see leases evolving into a subscription model where you just pay a monthly rate for a car (not your specific car, just "a car") and they would come swap it out when it was time (no more trading in the old car, selecting a new one, and signing a new lease). This might then evolve into the self-driving ridesharing fleet concept many were pushing before it because clear that self-driving cars were further away than pundits thought.
Quote from: vdeane on August 02, 2024, 12:45:38 PMQuote from: SEWIGuy on August 02, 2024, 08:47:41 AMQuote from: Scott5114 on July 31, 2024, 08:12:26 PMQuote from: SSOWorld on July 31, 2024, 06:30:44 PMYou buy a new one, just like a computer.
Sure, cause everyone has $50,000 to spend every 4 years on a new model.
As I said above, if that's the business model the car manufacturers want to go with, all of a sudden transit will start to look real nice for a lot of people.
1. Most Americans own their cars for more than five years.
https://www.thezebra.com/resources/driving/average-length-of-car-ownership/
2. You can buy a used car at a lower price.
3. You can choose to lease instead.
Car companies know what they are doing. They know that they will push out the high margin new cars that people want, and the used car and lease market will take care of those who want to (or have to) spend less.
How does buying used or keeping a car longer change the software no longer being updated? At best you're looking at functionality going away as it falls out of support (potentially with nagging from the car company), but it's also a security concern as security vulnerabilities go unaddressed. There's a reason why many people who are familiar with technology won't keep devices that are connected to the internet and are no longer recieving updates.
And yes, car companies are aggressively pushing leases, but I hardly want to live in a world where all cars are a lease. I could see leases evolving into a subscription model where you just pay a monthly rate for a car (not your specific car, just "a car") and they would come swap it out when it was time (no more trading in the old car, selecting a new one, and signing a new lease). This might then evolve into the self-driving ridesharing fleet concept many were pushing before it because clear that self-driving cars were further away than pundits thought.
So far, connectivity loss and associated loss of over-the-air features, is the biggest example of car obsolescence- not the other way around Loosing remote start is bad, but not critical.
I doubt any car would be non-driveable without connectivity, there are enough remote areas where nothing works. Selling a car which wouldn't start after a hike in (insert your nearby national or big state park) may crash sales for that model.
Major thing that I may see is apple-style pairing of car components for compatibility. Moving used transmission from another car may become interesting. I just hope they wouldn't go as far as digitally signing brake pads.
Quote from: kkt on August 01, 2024, 01:47:17 PMQuote from: vdeane on July 31, 2024, 10:29:28 PMQuote from: Scott5114 on July 31, 2024, 08:12:26 PMQuote from: SSOWorld on July 31, 2024, 06:30:44 PMYou buy a new one, just like a computer.
Sure, cause everyone has $50,000 to spend every 4 years on a new model.
As I said above, if that's the business model the car manufacturers want to go with, all of a sudden transit will start to look real nice for a lot of people.
I'm pretty sure the business model they want to go with is making the car itself a subscription.
If I wanted to lease a car, I would have done so already.
I'm a buy it new and then drive it until it falls apart guy.
Also, no auto manufacturer has increased their warranty time-or-mileage coverage in about 15 years. That's a pretty good tell that they just want you to keep replacing them.
This is something I don't know much about. I know about automotives, but I stopped keeping up with advances years ago. I love roads and driving and have less than no interest in whatever it is people are doing with those onboard computers. I've never used or wanted to use a car to access the Internet or GPS service or connect with another device, so I ignore those features. I just want a car to start, go faster, go slower, and steer. The only computers I need are the ones that have been on there for 30 years, controlling the fuel injection and transmission. Do I care if the thing that makes noises and lights I'd rather not have is updated? I don't know enough to know whether I should. Is there a reason I shouldn't pull whatever fuse or cut whatever wire connects it to the Internet in order to keep it from being hacked? Will the engine not start if it can't look up instructions for how to activate the starter? Will the wheels not steer because the computer doesn't know the difference between clockwise and counterclockwise and needs to ask Google? I have the computer set to stop asking to pair with a device every time I get in, and then I just ignore it. If I knew more about it, I'd probably be inclined to just pull the damned thing out because a hole in the dashboard is better than an annoyance and security risk. Are people worried about the car not actually working anymore or are they just worried about not being able to connect the latest devices for purposes that have nothing to do with getting down the road? Do I need to brush up on carburetor rebuilding principles, buy a dwell meter, and dig up my old timing light in order to avoid automotive cyberhell?
Do you ever want to turn on your defroster or A/C? That's a feature on my screen now, not a button.
Personally I prefer to use Android Auto so I can access Google Maps or Waze instead of relying on the built-in map feature on the car. Because we found out that not only doesn't it have real-time traffic, it often doesn't have road updates or closures that happened months or even years ago. (An alternative would be to use the phone itself, like I did in my previous vehicles that didn't have all the fancy gadgets.)
I prefer just using my cell phone in a mount to Android Auto.
Forthcoming 'Right to repair' laws, too. I have also heard the 'horror' stories of common consumable replacement items, like headlight and other light bulbs, having to pass an OEM 'chip match' test in order to work, Just like with computer printers. The next few years will be very interesting in that regard.
Mike
Quote from: kalvado on August 02, 2024, 02:21:32 PMSo far, connectivity loss and associated loss of over-the-air features, is the biggest example of car obsolescence- not the other way around Loosing remote start is bad, but not critical.
I doubt any car would be non-driveable without connectivity, there are enough remote areas where nothing works. Selling a car which wouldn't start after a hike in (insert your nearby national or big state park) may crash sales for that model.
Major thing that I may see is apple-style pairing of car components for compatibility. Moving used transmission from another car may become interesting. I just hope they wouldn't go as far as digitally signing brake pads.
I'm still waiting for the first cases of hacked cars to hit the news. Honestly, given how much of a nightmare software security in cars is, I'm surprised it hasn't happened already. Imagine ransomware on a car, or a car's computer being turned into part of a bot net.
Quote from: wxfree on August 02, 2024, 03:06:14 PMIs there a reason I shouldn't pull whatever fuse or cut whatever wire connects it to the Internet in order to keep it from being hacked?
You do realize that cassette tape players and CD players are practically extinct on new cars now. That means that you will either be reliant on terrestrial radio, possibly SiriusXM, audio from a Bluetooth connection, maybe an Aux connection, or streaming through the Internet.
What is more worrying to me is how the automakers are trying to further monetarize some features of the car as part of a monthly subscription to the point of putting up walls and not allowing Android Auto/Carplay to run in favor of their own in-house apps.
Quote from: ZLoth on August 03, 2024, 07:18:35 AMWhat is more worrying to me is how the automakers are trying to further monetarize some features of the car as part of a monthly subscription to the point of putting up walls and not allowing Android Auto/Carplay to run in favor of their own in-house apps.
And then there's the opposite, with Google trying to get even more data by building the car's OS and having the driver's Google account tied to everything rather than going through the phone.