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National Boards => General Highway Talk => Topic started by: kernals12 on August 02, 2024, 12:01:08 PM

Title: Might today's temporary roadways set the stage for tomorrow's permanent ones?
Post by: kernals12 on August 02, 2024, 12:01:08 PM
(https://i.imgur.com/XNG00Ys.jpeg)

Many industries (utilities, logging, oil and gas etc.) find themselves needing to bring vehicles to remote areas where there are no paved roads for miles. Not wanting to go to the effort of putting caterpillar tracks on their trucks or the expense of building a traditional road, they put up temporary roads. They come in many forms: plastic tiles, wood planks, and even rubber mats that get rolled out. They are very, very cheap to install and once the work is done, they can be removed.

These portable roads are not nearly durable enough to act as permanent highways... so far. But with breakthroughs in material science, such as a recent discovery (https://interestingengineering.com/science/purdue-researchers-ceramics-dislocations-plasticity) of a way to make ceramics that don't shatter uncontrollably, I see no reason why these couldn't be used for tomorrow's highways, they could be built much cheaper and faster than today's highways, they'd be exceptionally smooth, easy to maintain (a damaged tile could be replaced in just a few minutes), not prone to potholes or rutting, and allow variety in appearance.
Title: Re: Might today's temporary roadways set the stage for tomorrow's permanent ones?
Post by: SEWIGuy on August 02, 2024, 12:20:31 PM
Eventually sure. Cost is the main factor.
Title: Re: Might today's temporary roadways set the stage for tomorrow's permanent ones?
Post by: 1995hoo on August 02, 2024, 12:34:56 PM
One question might be how such things hold up in colder climates where the freeze/thaw cycle results in frost heaves. Even if a particular tile doesn't shatter, presumably there would still be seams between the tiles that would be vulnerable to separation.
Title: Re: Might today's temporary roadways set the stage for tomorrow's permanent ones?
Post by: jeffandnicole on August 02, 2024, 01:23:17 PM
Quote from: kernals12 on August 02, 2024, 12:01:08 PM(https://i.imgur.com/XNG00Ys.jpeg)

Many industries (utilities, logging, oil and gas etc.) find themselves needing to bring vehicles to remote areas where there are no paved roads for miles. Not wanting to go to the effort of putting caterpillar tracks on their trucks or the expense of building a traditional road, they put up temporary roads. They come in many forms: plastic tiles, wood planks, and even rubber mats that get rolled out. They are very, very cheap to install and once the work is done, they can be removed.

These portable roads are not nearly durable enough to act as permanent highways... so far. But with breakthroughs in material science, such as a recent discovery (https://interestingengineering.com/science/purdue-researchers-ceramics-dislocations-plasticity) of a way to make ceramics that don't shatter uncontrollably, I see no reason why these couldn't be used for tomorrow's highways, they could be built much cheaper and faster than today's highways, they'd be exceptionally smooth, easy to maintain (a damaged tile could be replaced in just a few minutes), not prone to potholes or rutting, and allow variety in appearance.

I don't know if I've ever seen any sort of roadway without a decent subbase hold up well for very long. Water would get under the mats and eventually decay whatever is under them.
Title: Re: Might today's temporary roadways set the stage for tomorrow's permanent ones?
Post by: kernals12 on August 02, 2024, 02:16:34 PM
Quote from: jeffandnicole on August 02, 2024, 01:23:17 PM
Quote from: kernals12 on August 02, 2024, 12:01:08 PM(https://i.imgur.com/XNG00Ys.jpeg)

Many industries (utilities, logging, oil and gas etc.) find themselves needing to bring vehicles to remote areas where there are no paved roads for miles. Not wanting to go to the effort of putting caterpillar tracks on their trucks or the expense of building a traditional road, they put up temporary roads. They come in many forms: plastic tiles, wood planks, and even rubber mats that get rolled out. They are very, very cheap to install and once the work is done, they can be removed.

These portable roads are not nearly durable enough to act as permanent highways... so far. But with breakthroughs in material science, such as a recent discovery (https://interestingengineering.com/science/purdue-researchers-ceramics-dislocations-plasticity) of a way to make ceramics that don't shatter uncontrollably, I see no reason why these couldn't be used for tomorrow's highways, they could be built much cheaper and faster than today's highways, they'd be exceptionally smooth, easy to maintain (a damaged tile could be replaced in just a few minutes), not prone to potholes or rutting, and allow variety in appearance.

I don't know if I've ever seen any sort of roadway without a decent subbase hold up well for very long. Water would get under the mats and eventually decay whatever is under them.

We have bridges that span thousands of feet without any subbase. It's just a matter of strength.
Title: Re: Might today's temporary roadways set the stage for tomorrow's permanent ones?
Post by: paulthemapguy on August 02, 2024, 02:36:18 PM
 :wave: Yeah so I have a question. If a material is "strong" enough, it can sit in the air inches or feet above the ground and support traffic loads?  Islands in the sky aren't real.

Any pavement is a structure.  The downward force (load) needs to get transferred downward through whichever pavement structure is chosen, and that pavement structure would also need to perform the task of distributing the load outward into the Earth. These tiles really just prevent trucks from getting their wheels stuck in the mud. We need a pavement to provide side-friction forces (see: angled gravel vs. round gravel) to prevent rutting, raveling, and plastic deformation of the pavement.
Title: Re: Might today's temporary roadways set the stage for tomorrow's permanent ones?
Post by: kernals12 on August 02, 2024, 02:47:56 PM
Quote from: paulthemapguy on August 02, 2024, 02:36:18 PM:wave: Yeah so I have a question. If a material is "strong" enough, it can sit in the air inches or feet above the ground and support traffic loads?  Islands in the sky aren't real.

Any pavement is a structure.  The downward force (load) needs to get transferred downward through whichever pavement structure is chosen, and that pavement structure would also need to perform the task of distributing the load outward into the Earth. These tiles really just prevent trucks from getting their wheels stuck in the mud. We need a pavement to provide side-friction forces (see: angled gravel vs. round gravel) to prevent rutting, raveling, and plastic deformation of the pavement.
If it's supported on both ends, then yes.
Title: Re: Might today's temporary roadways set the stage for tomorrow's permanent ones?
Post by: GaryV on August 02, 2024, 03:30:21 PM
Quote from: kernals12 on August 02, 2024, 02:16:34 PMWe have bridges that span thousands of feet without any subbase.
Bridge pier supports are floating on the ground without any deep support? Who knew.
 :confused:
Title: Re: Might today's temporary roadways set the stage for tomorrow's permanent ones?
Post by: kernals12 on August 02, 2024, 03:44:04 PM
Quote from: GaryV on August 02, 2024, 03:30:21 PM
Quote from: kernals12 on August 02, 2024, 02:16:34 PMWe have bridges that span thousands of feet without any subbase.
Bridge pier supports are floating on the ground without any deep support? Who knew.
 :confused:

So then anchor the tiles to the ground with studs.
Title: Re: Might today's temporary roadways set the stage for tomorrow's permanent ones?
Post by: Rothman on August 02, 2024, 04:12:39 PM
Another k12 thread goes the way of all the others. :D
Title: Re: Might today's temporary roadways set the stage for tomorrow's permanent ones?
Post by: GaryV on August 02, 2024, 06:18:18 PM
Quote from: kernals12 on August 02, 2024, 03:44:04 PM
Quote from: GaryV on August 02, 2024, 03:30:21 PM
Quote from: kernals12 on August 02, 2024, 02:16:34 PMWe have bridges that span thousands of feet without any subbase.
Bridge pier supports are floating on the ground without any deep support? Who knew.
 :confused:

So then anchor the tiles to the ground with studs.

Yeah, that'll keep the rain from washing the soil out from under the tiles.   :banghead:
Title: Re: Might today's temporary roadways set the stage for tomorrow's permanent ones?
Post by: kernals12 on August 02, 2024, 07:30:20 PM
Quote from: GaryV on August 02, 2024, 06:18:18 PM
Quote from: kernals12 on August 02, 2024, 03:44:04 PM
Quote from: GaryV on August 02, 2024, 03:30:21 PM
Quote from: kernals12 on August 02, 2024, 02:16:34 PMWe have bridges that span thousands of feet without any subbase.
Bridge pier supports are floating on the ground without any deep support? Who knew.
 :confused:

So then anchor the tiles to the ground with studs.

Yeah, that'll keep the rain from washing the soil out from under the tiles.   :banghead:

What keeps the rain from washing the soil out from under conventional asphalt roads?
Title: Re: Might today's temporary roadways set the stage for tomorrow's permanent ones?
Post by: SEWIGuy on August 02, 2024, 08:09:07 PM
Quote from: Rothman on August 02, 2024, 04:12:39 PMAnother k12 thread goes the way of all the others. :D

See, this is art to me.
Title: Re: Might today's temporary roadways set the stage for tomorrow's permanent ones?
Post by: GaryV on August 03, 2024, 06:52:17 AM
Quote from: kernals12 on August 02, 2024, 07:30:20 PM
Quote from: GaryV on August 02, 2024, 06:18:18 PM
Quote from: kernals12 on August 02, 2024, 03:44:04 PM
Quote from: GaryV on August 02, 2024, 03:30:21 PM
Quote from: kernals12 on August 02, 2024, 02:16:34 PMWe have bridges that span thousands of feet without any subbase.
Bridge pier supports are floating on the ground without any deep support? Who knew.
 :confused:

So then anchor the tiles to the ground with studs.

Yeah, that'll keep the rain from washing the soil out from under the tiles.   :banghead:

What keeps the rain from washing the soil out from under conventional asphalt roads?

The built up base of gravel.

I'm not sure if you're being intentionally obtuse about this. Did you not know that roads are not simply a layer of asphalt or cement plopped on top of the dirt?
Title: Re: Might today's temporary roadways set the stage for tomorrow's permanent ones?
Post by: kernals12 on August 03, 2024, 11:36:38 AM
Quote from: GaryV on August 03, 2024, 06:52:17 AM
Quote from: kernals12 on August 02, 2024, 07:30:20 PM
Quote from: GaryV on August 02, 2024, 06:18:18 PM
Quote from: kernals12 on August 02, 2024, 03:44:04 PM
Quote from: GaryV on August 02, 2024, 03:30:21 PM
Quote from: kernals12 on August 02, 2024, 02:16:34 PMWe have bridges that span thousands of feet without any subbase.
Bridge pier supports are floating on the ground without any deep support? Who knew.
 :confused:

So then anchor the tiles to the ground with studs.

Yeah, that'll keep the rain from washing the soil out from under the tiles.   :banghead:

What keeps the rain from washing the soil out from under conventional asphalt roads?

The built up base of gravel.

I'm not sure if you're being intentionally obtuse about this. Did you not know that roads are not simply a layer of asphalt or cement plopped on top of the dirt?


I was aware of that, I assumed the purpose of the gravel was to provide a relatively flat surface for the asphalt to go on top. And the internet says the main purpose of the subgrade is too evenly distribute the load forces into the ground, meaning that it's really needed to make up for the poor strength of the asphalt concrete on top.
Title: Re: Might today's temporary roadways set the stage for tomorrow's permanent ones?
Post by: wanderer2575 on August 03, 2024, 01:00:53 PM
Well, if the Internet says so, it must be so.

A kernals12 thread being Exhibit A.
Title: Re: Might today's temporary roadways set the stage for tomorrow's permanent ones?
Post by: Max Rockatansky on August 03, 2024, 01:19:27 PM
Quote from: SEWIGuy on August 02, 2024, 08:09:07 PM
Quote from: Rothman on August 02, 2024, 04:12:39 PMAnother k12 thread goes the way of all the others. :D

See, this is art to me.

Kid wants to believe he's the next great futurist.   I'm not sure what he getting out this rinse and repeat process in his threads.
Title: Re: Might today's temporary roadways set the stage for tomorrow's permanent ones?
Post by: Plutonic Panda on August 03, 2024, 03:06:28 PM
Quote from: paulthemapguy on August 02, 2024, 02:36:18 PMIslands in the sky aren't real.
You sir have clearly not played BioShock. ;)
Title: Re: Might today's temporary roadways set the stage for tomorrow's permanent ones?
Post by: Max Rockatansky on August 03, 2024, 03:12:57 PM
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on August 03, 2024, 03:06:28 PM
Quote from: paulthemapguy on August 02, 2024, 02:36:18 PMIslands in the sky aren't real.
You sir have clearly not played BioShock. ;)

Or been to Canyonlands National Park.
Title: Re: Might today's temporary roadways set the stage for tomorrow's permanent ones?
Post by: Plutonic Panda on August 03, 2024, 03:18:33 PM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on August 03, 2024, 03:12:57 PM
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on August 03, 2024, 03:06:28 PM
Quote from: paulthemapguy on August 02, 2024, 02:36:18 PMIslands in the sky aren't real.
You sir have clearly not played BioShock. ;)

Or been to Canyonlands National Park.
Kind of off topic but you've mentioned you enjoy a number of roads off the maps of dirt and natures soil variety, I've been wanting to hit the backroads of Canyonlands for awhile as my spot is Arches, I have a 2019 Subaru Forester completely stock. Would that be ideal to take out there?
Title: Re: Might today's temporary roadways set the stage for tomorrow's permanent ones?
Post by: Max Rockatansky on August 03, 2024, 03:37:40 PM
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on August 03, 2024, 03:18:33 PM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on August 03, 2024, 03:12:57 PM
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on August 03, 2024, 03:06:28 PM
Quote from: paulthemapguy on August 02, 2024, 02:36:18 PMIslands in the sky aren't real.
You sir have clearly not played BioShock. ;)

Or been to Canyonlands National Park.
Kind of off topic but you've mentioned you enjoy a number of roads off the maps of dirt and natures soil variety, I've been wanting to hit the backroads of Canyonlands for awhile as my spot is Arches, I have a 2019 Subaru Forester completely stock. Would that be ideal to take out there?

A Forester probably could make through stuff like the Shafer Canyon Road.  The primary concern I would have is the Subaru CVT kind of sucks when it comes to long descents. 
Title: Re: Might today's temporary roadways set the stage for tomorrow's permanent ones?
Post by: pderocco on August 03, 2024, 06:09:21 PM
Quote from: kernals12 on August 03, 2024, 11:36:38 AM
Quote from: GaryV on August 03, 2024, 06:52:17 AMThe built up base of gravel.

I'm not sure if you're being intentionally obtuse about this. Did you not know that roads are not simply a layer of asphalt or cement plopped on top of the dirt?

I was aware of that, I assumed the purpose of the gravel was to provide a relatively flat surface for the asphalt to go on top. And the internet says the main purpose of the subgrade is too evenly distribute the load forces into the ground, meaning that it's really needed to make up for the poor strength of the asphalt concrete on top.
In cold climates, the gravel provides drainage so that you don't end up with water freezing right under the asphalt or concrete and cracking it. When Caltrans was replacing I-5 through the Pyramid Lake to Gorman area, I noticed that they didn't use gravel at all. They laid down rebar, covered it with at least a foot of concrete, added another layer of rebar, and another foot of concrete. I assume that's because even up at 4000 feet, it never gets cold enough to freeze water under the road.

But it's certainly the case that no matter what you make the prefab surface out of, you can't lay it down on an uneven surface and expect it to work very well. And you'd have to smooth the dirt even better if you're laying down something hard, rather than something that can fill the voids itself.
Title: Re: Might today's temporary roadways set the stage for tomorrow's permanent ones?
Post by: Road Hog on August 03, 2024, 07:31:58 PM
I noticed through recent construction that an asphalt base will be laid down, followed by rebar and then the 12-foot concrete apparatus that'll put in the top surface in a single go. There might be a joint where the crew knocks off for the day.
Title: Re: Might today's temporary roadways set the stage for tomorrow's permanent ones?
Post by: pderocco on August 04, 2024, 03:52:20 PM
Quote from: Road Hog on August 03, 2024, 07:31:58 PMI noticed through recent construction that an asphalt base will be laid down, followed by rebar and then the 12-foot concrete apparatus that'll put in the top surface in a single go. There might be a joint where the crew knocks off for the day.
There might be quite a few when they knock off for the day.