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From SOURCE:

Local car repair shops turning away jobs over 'financial restraints,' costly tech for new vehicles — why taking your car to a dealership for a fix-up might be your only option soon

QuoteAs the technology in new vehicles becomes increasingly sophisticated, local repair shops, like Ted's Auto Clinic in Chicago, owned by brothers George and Chris Geropoulos, face mounting financial and logistical barriers to repairing modern cars.

The auto repair shop, opened by their father in 1982, is increasingly unable to service newer cars, which often require a special scanner and a subscription service to access the car's computer to perform diagnostics and make repairs.

FULL ARTICLE HERE (https://markholtz.info/2wi)

I hope the feds do something about this.  Having to go to the dealer for maintenance and repairs would suck.  When my battery failed in 2020, I took it to Warren Tire, and they were able to have it replaced in 5-10 minutes.  When I called the dealer earlier, they said it would take three hours.  I don't have anyone to ferry me around while they work, so I'd have to sit and wait, and I don't have that kind of time.

The last straw was when I did a routine service interval with them (oil change/tire rotation/etc.).  They had a deal for booking online, so I did so.  The online booking doesn't exactly match what the maintenance minder says, and does have a way to put in the tire rotation, so I just put in the oil change and reminded them about the tire rotation when I got there (I forget if there was anything else).  2.5 hours later, they're done, and only did the oil change, no tire rotation.  I didn't have any more time at that point, so I basically skipped the tire rotation for that service interval, which sucked, because I can feel the difference when I drive, and it's ~10k miles between service intervals.  Meanwhile, Warren Tire can do the equivalent service in 30 minutes, maybe an hour if they're busy.

I also got free NYS inspections for the life of the car, but after enough times where I had to remind them of that and sit there for who knows how long while they figured it out, I gave up and just go to Warren Tire for that too.

And my local dealer is fairly reputable.  Some areas don't have any trustworthy dealers.  I remember when my Mom brought one of her past vehicles into the dealer for a recall, and she said that every single person who was there would have the dealer come back saying something was "wrong" with the car that needed to be fixed.

My new Corolla Hybrid has a 5,000 mile service interval.  Thing is that the 5,000 mile service essentially amounts to a tire rotation and a multi-point inspection.  I didn't bother and just turned off the 5,000 maintenance indicator.  I'll wait until 10,000 for the rotation when the oil is due.  This just strikes me as Toyota trying to drive extra service traffic to dealerships.

I haven't had to take a car in to do anything but routine maintenance in ages, but when that time comes I'm definitely going to a dealer. I don't really trust the mom and pop shops with today's cars anyway.

Quote from: vdeane on November 09, 2024, 08:12:14 PMI hope the feds do something about this.  Having to go to the dealer for maintenance and repairs would suck.  When my battery failed in 2020, I took it to Warren Tire, and they were able to have it replaced in 5-10 minutes.  When I called the dealer earlier, they said it would take three hours.  I don't have anyone to ferry me around while they work, so I'd have to sit and wait, and I don't have that kind of time.

The last straw was when I did a routine service interval with them (oil change/tire rotation/etc.).  They had a deal for booking online, so I did so.  The online booking doesn't exactly match what the maintenance minder says, and does have a way to put in the tire rotation, so I just put in the oil change and reminded them about the tire rotation when I got there (I forget if there was anything else).  2.5 hours later, they're done, and only did the oil change, no tire rotation.  I didn't have any more time at that point, so I basically skipped the tire rotation for that service interval, which sucked, because I can feel the difference when I drive, and it's ~10k miles between service intervals.  Meanwhile, Warren Tire can do the equivalent service in 30 minutes, maybe an hour if they're busy.

I also got free NYS inspections for the life of the car, but after enough times where I had to remind them of that and sit there for who knows how long while they figured it out, I gave up and just go to Warren Tire for that too.

And my local dealer is fairly reputable.  Some areas don't have any trustworthy dealers.  I remember when my Mom brought one of her past vehicles into the dealer for a recall, and she said that every single person who was there would have the dealer come back saying something was "wrong" with the car that needed to be fixed.

If you buy your tires from a place like Discount Tire, they do the rotate and balance for free as a part of buying the tires from them.  It takes maybe a half hour or so, depending on how busy they are.  Maybe Warren Tire has the same deal?

Quote from: Max Rockatansky on November 09, 2024, 08:35:22 PMMy new Corolla Hybrid has a 5,000 mile service interval.  Thing is that the 5,000 mile service essentially amounts to a tire rotation and a multi-point inspection.  I didn't bother and just turned off the 5,000 maintenance indicator.  I'll wait until 10,000 for the rotation when the oil is due.  This just strikes me as Toyota trying to drive extra service traffic to dealerships.

There is still a gap between oil manufacturers saying oil is good for 10k miles and Valvoline oil change place saying 3k.
That is given most modern cars require full synthetic 0w20 or better.

There's really nothing the Feds can do since they're in charge of making sure vehicles maintain minimum safety standards, not how the car should be built and maintained.

Glancing around, it doesn't appear these services are insanely expensive. Maybe a few hundred bucks per month, which a repair facility can spread out to the hundreds of cars they may work on each month. Sure, very small repair shops may feel the bite a bit more, but if they're good with customer service, they should be abke to roll the cost into the price with no problem.

That all said, I generally take my vehicles to the dealer for maintenance. While they're good and don't make up phantom issues from my experiences, the only problem I've had lately is my hybrid should be able to go 90k between transmission fluid changes. The dealership prefers 30k-45k. Even for normal modern vehicles that's probably more than necessary, but at least it's close to the manufacturers recommendations. They're trying to apply a full ICE maintenance schedule to my hybrid, which is just mostly profit to them.

Quote from: kalvado on November 10, 2024, 09:04:09 AMThere is still a gap between oil manufacturers saying oil is good for 10k miles and Valvoline oil change place saying 3k.
That is given most modern cars require full synthetic 0w20 or better.

Oil change places make their money off of oil changes. Since modern oils don't require changing 3 times as long, that's 3 times less a car needs to be services. So those places, Valvoline, Jiffy Libe, etc, need to manufacture reasons why this is still 1970 and you should get your oil changed every 3,000 miles.

Quote from: kalvado on November 10, 2024, 09:04:09 AM

Quote from: Max Rockatansky on November 09, 2024, 08:35:22 PMMy new Corolla Hybrid has a 5,000 mile service interval.  Thing is that the 5,000 mile service essentially amounts to a tire rotation and a multi-point inspection.  I didn't bother and just turned off the 5,000 maintenance indicator.  I'll wait until 10,000 for the rotation when the oil is due.  This just strikes me as Toyota trying to drive extra service traffic to dealerships.

There is still a gap between oil manufacturers saying oil is good for 10k miles and Valvoline oil change place saying 3k.
That is given most modern cars require full synthetic 0w20 or better.

Depends on the oil change place.  Jiffy Lube (at least the one I visit) is sticking to what manufacturer recommendation is.

I'm a little bit sinful in this regard because I change the oil in my cars only once a year to correspond with the Texas emissions testing (and it used to include safe inspection as well), and only because I'm rarely driving. Both vehicles are driven once a week, with my car when I'm solo, and my mother's car when I'm taking her on a errand. Both use synthetic oil.

I'm slightly amused when I did a google search and found this post from a dealership (https://www.toyotaoflouisville.com/service/service-tips/how-often-should-you-change-your-oil/):

QuoteAn oil change service doesn't take long, but its results last for thousands of miles. And while the old rule of thumb was to change your oil every 3,000 miles or so, modern automotive technology has stretched that figure even further. Due to better engineering and better oil formulations, now you can expect between 7,500 to 10,000 miles between oil changes!

No wonder we have the dealer upsells. But, yeah, on modern cars, 3k miles is more than likely too often to change the oil.

As for tires, I end up going to Discount Tire (aka America's Tire in California) because of the free air pressure checks as well as the tire rotations.

More reasons to expect a trend towards adopting strong  'right to repair' laws in coming years.

Mike

Quote from: mgk920 on November 10, 2024, 11:46:04 AMMore reasons to expect a trend towards adopting strong  'right to repair' laws in coming years.

Mike

I doubt it.  Businesses run our government, not consumers.

Quote from: Max Rockatansky on November 10, 2024, 10:19:58 AM

Quote from: kalvado on November 10, 2024, 09:04:09 AM

Quote from: Max Rockatansky on November 09, 2024, 08:35:22 PMMy new Corolla Hybrid has a 5,000 mile service interval.  Thing is that the 5,000 mile service essentially amounts to a tire rotation and a multi-point inspection.  I didn't bother and just turned off the 5,000 maintenance indicator.  I'll wait until 10,000 for the rotation when the oil is due.  This just strikes me as Toyota trying to drive extra service traffic to dealerships.

There is still a gap between oil manufacturers saying oil is good for 10k miles and Valvoline oil change place saying 3k.
That is given most modern cars require full synthetic 0w20 or better.

Depends on the oil change place.  Jiffy Lube (at least the one I visit) is sticking to what manufacturer recommendation is.

Even OEM numbers seem to be below oil manufacturers numbers. I did that simple paper chromatography test before last service, and as far as I understand there was still plenty of life in that oil. But since NY has annual inspection requirement which was coming overdue....

Quote from: jeffandnicole on November 10, 2024, 10:08:23 AMThere's really nothing the Feds can do since they're in charge of making sure vehicles maintain minimum safety standards, not how the car should be built and maintained.

Yes, the Feds *can* do something about it.  Lawmakers can ignore automaker lobbyists, and pass the Motor Vehicle Owners' Right To Repair Act (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motor_Vehicle_Owners%27_Right_to_Repair_Act).

I enjoying watching automotive content on YouTube.  Mostly content related to revivals of older cars, but sometimes newer neglected cars.  Most YouTube automotive content creators have at least one video where they discuss Right To Repair and how important it is both to DIYers as well as repair shops.

Quote from: wriddle082 on November 10, 2024, 03:46:25 PM

Quote from: jeffandnicole on November 10, 2024, 10:08:23 AMThere's really nothing the Feds can do since they're in charge of making sure vehicles maintain minimum safety standards, not how the car should be built and maintained.

Yes, the Feds *can* do something about it.  Lawmakers can ignore automaker lobbyists, and pass the Motor Vehicle Owners' Right To Repair Act (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motor_Vehicle_Owners%27_Right_to_Repair_Act).

I enjoying watching automotive content on YouTube.  Mostly content related to revivals of older cars, but sometimes newer neglected cars.  Most YouTube automotive content creators have at least one video where they discuss Right To Repair and how important it is both to DIYers as well as repair shops.

They can, but they won't.

Quote from: Rothman on November 10, 2024, 08:06:32 PM

Quote from: wriddle082 on November 10, 2024, 03:46:25 PM

Quote from: jeffandnicole on November 10, 2024, 10:08:23 AMThere's really nothing the Feds can do since they're in charge of making sure vehicles maintain minimum safety standards, not how the car should be built and maintained.

Yes, the Feds *can* do something about it.  Lawmakers can ignore automaker lobbyists, and pass the Motor Vehicle Owners' Right To Repair Act (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motor_Vehicle_Owners%27_Right_to_Repair_Act).

I enjoying watching automotive content on YouTube.  Mostly content related to revivals of older cars, but sometimes newer neglected cars.  Most YouTube automotive content creators have at least one video where they discuss Right To Repair and how important it is both to DIYers as well as repair shops.

They can, but they won't.

Of course not. Can't upset the billionaire companies.

Quote from: LilianaUwU on November 10, 2024, 08:29:58 PM

Quote from: Rothman on November 10, 2024, 08:06:32 PM

Quote from: wriddle082 on November 10, 2024, 03:46:25 PM

Quote from: jeffandnicole on November 10, 2024, 10:08:23 AMThere's really nothing the Feds can do since they're in charge of making sure vehicles maintain minimum safety standards, not how the car should be built and maintained.

Yes, the Feds *can* do something about it.  Lawmakers can ignore automaker lobbyists, and pass the Motor Vehicle Owners' Right To Repair Act (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motor_Vehicle_Owners%27_Right_to_Repair_Act).

I enjoying watching automotive content on YouTube.  Mostly content related to revivals of older cars, but sometimes newer neglected cars.  Most YouTube automotive content creators have at least one video where they discuss Right To Repair and how important it is both to DIYers as well as repair shops.

They can, but they won't.

Of course not. Can't upset the billionaire companies.

And I realize that both of you live in Northern climates where road salt is a way of life and thus older cars are nearly extinct due to rust.  But a good chunk of the population now lives in warmer climates.  Here in the middle of South Carolina, I honestly don't remember the last time SCDOT had to brine/salt the roads because it's just not even a yearly thing down here (but at least once a year in the Upstate).

A consequence of this is, especially in my area, many vehicles are older because they don't rust away, and we're much more willing to continue to repair to make them last as long as possible.  For example, I drive a nearly 20-yo GMC pickup truck with 305k miles, very little rust (though the paint isn't all that great), and a very reliable engine.  I really haven't put a great deal of money into maintaining it, and I try to do as much on my own as I can.  And considering the age, GM of course has long since forgotten about my truck, and probably wishes they never made it in the first place because of its reliability and lower revenue stream from parts and/or repairs.

As much as I love my truck, it's not going to last forever.  Because my father-in-law is a GM retiree (30 years at the old Fisher Body in Lansing, MI), we are a solid GM family and get GM Employee Pricing on new cars.  Before I married into this family, I had owned one GM in the past but at the time I owned a Jeep and a Honda.  Traded the Honda for my truck right before we got married because I had a legitimate need for it at the time.

Fast forward to today, and once I do finally need a new vehicle, I will be a bit scared.  I am still beholden to GM makes, and I really can't find one that appeals to me in the slightest.  And all pickup trucks are way too expensive.  I don't necessarily need another truck these days, as a midsize or full size SUV would fulfill my needs, but GM's offerings are either too expensive or unappealing.  It's like they're only concerned with gouging their customers for as much as they can at the expense of quality and customer loyalty, when they could go the route of Honda or Toyota or even Ford, who at least seem to care about not riling up their loyal customers unnecessarily.

Of course, after the time comes when I am no longer beholden to GM, if their corporate culture hasn't improved by then, I'm going back to Honda.

Quote from: wriddle082 on November 11, 2024, 09:16:50 AM

Quote from: LilianaUwU on November 10, 2024, 08:29:58 PM

Quote from: Rothman on November 10, 2024, 08:06:32 PM

Quote from: wriddle082 on November 10, 2024, 03:46:25 PM

Quote from: jeffandnicole on November 10, 2024, 10:08:23 AMThere's really nothing the Feds can do since they're in charge of making sure vehicles maintain minimum safety standards, not how the car should be built and maintained.

Yes, the Feds *can* do something about it.  Lawmakers can ignore automaker lobbyists, and pass the Motor Vehicle Owners' Right To Repair Act (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motor_Vehicle_Owners%27_Right_to_Repair_Act).

I enjoying watching automotive content on YouTube.  Mostly content related to revivals of older cars, but sometimes newer neglected cars.  Most YouTube automotive content creators have at least one video where they discuss Right To Repair and how important it is both to DIYers as well as repair shops.

They can, but they won't.

Of course not. Can't upset the billionaire companies.

And I realize that both of you live in Northern climates where road salt is a way of life and thus older cars are nearly extinct due to rust.  But a good chunk of the population now lives in warmer climates.  Here in the middle of South Carolina, I honestly don't remember the last time SCDOT had to brine/salt the roads because it's just not even a yearly thing down here (but at least once a year in the Upstate).

A consequence of this is, especially in my area, many vehicles are older because they don't rust away, and we're much more willing to continue to repair to make them last as long as possible.  For example, I drive a nearly 20-yo GMC pickup truck with 305k miles, very little rust (though the paint isn't all that great), and a very reliable engine.  I really haven't put a great deal of money into maintaining it, and I try to do as much on my own as I can.  And considering the age, GM of course has long since forgotten about my truck, and probably wishes they never made it in the first place because of its reliability and lower revenue stream from parts and/or repairs.

As much as I love my truck, it's not going to last forever.  Because my father-in-law is a GM retiree (30 years at the old Fisher Body in Lansing, MI), we are a solid GM family and get GM Employee Pricing on new cars.  Before I married into this family, I had owned one GM in the past but at the time I owned a Jeep and a Honda.  Traded the Honda for my truck right before we got married because I had a legitimate need for it at the time.

Fast forward to today, and once I do finally need a new vehicle, I will be a bit scared.  I am still beholden to GM makes, and I really can't find one that appeals to me in the slightest.  And all pickup trucks are way too expensive.  I don't necessarily need another truck these days, as a midsize or full size SUV would fulfill my needs, but GM's offerings are either too expensive or unappealing.  It's like they're only concerned with gouging their customers for as much as they can at the expense of quality and customer loyalty, when they could go the route of Honda or Toyota or even Ford, who at least seem to care about not riling up their loyal customers unnecessarily.

Of course, after the time comes when I am no longer beholden to GM, if their corporate culture hasn't improved by then, I'm going back to Honda.

Not sure how your preference for GM and wanting to be able to continue to repair them negates the fact that right to repair is probably quite a long shot given our our legislative branch is funded.

It can be done at the state level. Massachusetts passed it via ballot initiative in 2020.

Quote from: hotdogPi on November 11, 2024, 08:47:27 PMIt can be done at the state level. Massachusetts passed it via ballot initiative in 2020.

From the discussion in this thread, makes me wonder if that ballot initiative has had the teeth desired.

The only recent state level legislation that really that had a significant impact on the auto industry in CEQA.  A lot of that power given to the California Air Resource Board is contingent upon the state maintaining a Federal waiver to set their own automotive emission standards.  I suspect that waiver is likely in peril with the upcoming administration given it was a prior target. 

Quote from: Rothman on November 11, 2024, 08:31:11 PMNot sure how your preference for GM and wanting to be able to continue to repair them negates the fact that right to repair is probably quite a long shot given our our legislative branch is funded.

My point is that not everyone can afford to, or has a desire to, go to a dealership to get their vehicle fixed.  Once a vehicle's warranty has run out, they shouldn't have a useless lump of metal in their driveway a short time later that they can't afford to fix out of pocket.  Also, some people are thrifty and don't enjoy having some sort of car payment for the rest of their lives in order to always be driving something that's under warranty.  And finally, a great many people (who aren't lucky enough to be employed by a cozy DOT in a Northeastern state that likely pays very well and probably offers one hell of a pension at retirement) are on fixed incomes, are unemployed, or may be struggling to find work.  If they have a vehicle, the last thing they need to worry about is how they're gonna be able to afford overpriced automotive repairs from dealerships.  So if the voices of the people are loud enough, and enough legislators from both parties hear them, maybe something will happen.  Sure it's a longshot, but one can only hope.

GM's current business model is already very flawed.  They are about to stop offering Apple CarPlay and Android Auto in their new offerings, starting with their electric lineup and then eventually everything else.  Other automakers are doubling down on those extremely useful infotainment features, because the customer wants them.  GM's move is going to backfire in a big way, their sales will suffer (most will probably go to rental car fleets), and their executive leadership will hopefully face the consequences from their board of directors or shareholders.  And I really don't want to see the once proud GM suffer any more than they already have over the years (and my father-in-law potentially lose any more retirement benefits), though it's likely inevitable at this point.  As much as I can't stand Ford's offerings, they may soon be the last wholly American manufacturer of traditional automobiles.

Quote from: jeffandnicole on November 10, 2024, 10:08:23 AMThere's really nothing the Feds can do since they're in charge of making sure vehicles maintain minimum safety standards, not how the car should be built and maintained.

They are in charge of maintaining competitive business practices, however. If the car manufacturers are intentionally engineering cars to only be serviced by dealers, that would be something they could regulate under antitrust law.

Not that I expect that to actually happen after this past Tuesday, but still.

Quote from: wriddle082 on November 12, 2024, 12:04:25 AM

Quote from: Rothman on November 11, 2024, 08:31:11 PMNot sure how your preference for GM and wanting to be able to continue to repair them negates the fact that right to repair is probably quite a long shot given our our legislative branch is funded.

My point is that not everyone can afford to, or has a desire to, go to a dealership to get their vehicle fixed.  Once a vehicle's warranty has run out, they shouldn't have a useless lump of metal in their driveway a short time later that they can't afford to fix out of pocket.  Also, some people are thrifty and don't enjoy having some sort of car payment for the rest of their lives in order to always be driving something that's under warranty.  And finally, a great many people (who aren't lucky enough to be employed by a cozy DOT in a Northeastern state that likely pays very well and probably offers one hell of a pension at retirement) are on fixed incomes, are unemployed, or may be struggling to find work.  If they have a vehicle, the last thing they need to worry about is how they're gonna be able to afford overpriced automotive repairs from dealerships.  So if the voices of the people are loud enough, and enough legislators from both parties hear them, maybe something will happen.  Sure it's a longshot, but one can only hope.

GM's current business model is already very flawed.  They are about to stop offering Apple CarPlay and Android Auto in their new offerings, starting with their electric lineup and then eventually everything else.  Other automakers are doubling down on those extremely useful infotainment features, because the customer wants them.  GM's move is going to backfire in a big way, their sales will suffer (most will probably go to rental car fleets), and their executive leadership will hopefully face the consequences from their board of directors or shareholders.  And I really don't want to see the once proud GM suffer any more than they already have over the years (and my father-in-law potentially lose any more retirement benefits), though it's likely inevitable at this point.  As much as I can't stand Ford's offerings, they may soon be the last wholly American manufacturer of traditional automobiles.

The voice of the people on this matter will never be loud enough to drown out the corporation dollars from which legislators benefit.

And does anyone have a more or less personal example of a repair actually needing dealership involvement?
I can see several aspects.
First is, of course, authentic parts needed to be OEM approved. FU Steve Jobs.
Second is more reliable overall construction, with little small repairs needed until the point where cars were previously junked anyway.
Third, a more complicated electronic control system where things require an engineer rather than mechanic to diagnose.

Any other aspects of it?

Quote from: Scott5114 on November 12, 2024, 12:05:31 AM

Quote from: jeffandnicole on November 10, 2024, 10:08:23 AMThere's really nothing the Feds can do since they're in charge of making sure vehicles maintain minimum safety standards, not how the car should be built and maintained.

They are in charge of maintaining competitive business practices, however. If the car manufacturers are intentionally engineering cars to only be serviced by dealers, that would be something they could regulate under antitrust law.

Not that I expect that to actually happen after this past Tuesday, but still.

I believe the only vehicle manufacturer that does that currently is Tesla. Just inform Elon that he can't do that... (haha)

In reality though, many repairs are quite routine - tires, oils, etc that most places can do without issue. Dealerships won't be able to handle the volume of all repairs though, inlcuding with more sophisticated equipment. They could always work with repair shops to be "certified" or "authorized" repair shops that have the equipment and training to deal with their vehicles.

Quote from: jeffandnicole on November 12, 2024, 12:21:11 PM

Quote from: Scott5114 on November 12, 2024, 12:05:31 AM

Quote from: jeffandnicole on November 10, 2024, 10:08:23 AMThere's really nothing the Feds can do since they're in charge of making sure vehicles maintain minimum safety standards, not how the car should be built and maintained.

They are in charge of maintaining competitive business practices, however. If the car manufacturers are intentionally engineering cars to only be serviced by dealers, that would be something they could regulate under antitrust law.

Not that I expect that to actually happen after this past Tuesday, but still.

I believe the only vehicle manufacturer that does that currently is Tesla. Just inform Elon that he can't do that... (haha)

Well, yeah, he's sucking up to the President-Elect of the United States, so he can do no wrong in the eyes of our government now. He's certainly not going to be legislated against in the next four years. In my opinion, that shouldn't be how it is, but this is America: it's about who you know and how much money you have, not about anything like fairness or whether something is a good idea or not.

In retrospect—and this is not a political opinion, because it was an opinion I've shared years before Musk was involved in politics—the best part of this election cycle was seeing the Governor of Minnesota calling Elon Musk a dipshit.

Quote from: jeffandnicole on November 12, 2024, 12:21:11 PM

Quote from: Scott5114 on November 12, 2024, 12:05:31 AM

Quote from: jeffandnicole on November 10, 2024, 10:08:23 AMThere's really nothing the Feds can do since they're in charge of making sure vehicles maintain minimum safety standards, not how the car should be built and maintained.

They are in charge of maintaining competitive business practices, however. If the car manufacturers are intentionally engineering cars to only be serviced by dealers, that would be something they could regulate under antitrust law.

Not that I expect that to actually happen after this past Tuesday, but still.

I believe the only vehicle manufacturer that does that currently is Tesla. Just inform Elon that he can't do that... (haha)
t-Elect of the United States, so he can do no wrong in the eyes of our government now. He's certainly not going to be legislated against in the next four years. In my opinion, that shouldn't be how it is, but this is America: it's about who you know and how much money you have, not about anything like fairness or whether so
In reality though, many repairs are quite routine - tires, oils, etc that most places can do without issue. Dealerships won't be able to handle the volume of all repairs though, inlcuding with more sophisticated equipment. They could always work with repair shops to be "certified" or "authorized" repair shops that have the equipment and training to deal with their vehicles.

Back in the day, just before covid, I happened to be at a presentation given by a big shot from Google - VP for research if I remember correctly?
One of the big points he made is that with more reliable product (he was specifically talking phones, but I assume cars are on a same page), manufacturer has to be able to collect payments during the service life of the product to justify extending service life. (and we need longer life for environmental reasons, etc etc). Hence desire to move from one-time buy to subscription service.
I can easily see cars and repair services seeing similar trend.  Spares is one of big sources of income for OEM as well.

So I can see an argument made to lawmakers and public - more open repair rules would lead to higher prices, shorter lifetime, and after all is bad for general public.

 

Quote from: kalvado on November 12, 2024, 05:05:45 PMOne of the big points he made is that with more reliable product (he was specifically talking phones, but I assume cars are on a same page), manufacturer has to be able to collect payments during the service life of the product to justify extending service life.

The manufacturer doesn't have to be able to collect payments for the service life of the product. They want to be able to collect payments for the service life of the product.

My wife has had the same LG washer and dryer since before I met her. She's had them so long that she bought them from the Sears in Norman, back when Norman had a Sears. They're currently in storage here in Las Vegas, awaiting installation in the house we end up buying here. We don't pay LG anything for the washer and dryer, and last I checked LG was still a $62 billion company.

For most of the 20th century, reliability was considered a good thing in a product because it built brand loyalty. That only went out the window when companies started uniformly being run by greedy sons of bitches.

When my Saturn Vue was still running (and I still hold out hope it can be resurrected), it would tell me when it needed an oil change. There's an oil life sensor in it that takes mileage into consideration, but it's not the only factor. Generally, I'd be reminded that I needed to have an oil change every 10-12,000 miles. Meanwhile Valvoline Instant Oil Change (where I had all my oil changes done) would send me a postcard every three months reminding me that I was due for an oil change and giving me a coupon to entice me to come in.

Quote from: hbelkins on November 12, 2024, 08:19:08 PMWhen my Saturn Vue was still running (and I still hold out hope it can be resurrected), it would tell me when it needed an oil change. There's an oil life sensor in it that takes mileage into consideration, but it's not the only factor. Generally, I'd be reminded that I needed to have an oil change every 10-12,000 miles. Meanwhile Valvoline Instant Oil Change (where I had all my oil changes done) would send me a postcard every three months reminding me that I was due for an oil change and giving me a coupon to entice me to come in.

An interesting question is if there is actually a sensor. As far as I understand, a different brand has some calculations based on mileage, trip length, weather, and maybe something else. That's why a manual reset is done after oil change.

Quote from: jeffandnicole on November 12, 2024, 12:21:11 PM

Quote from: Scott5114 on November 12, 2024, 12:05:31 AM

Quote from: jeffandnicole on November 10, 2024, 10:08:23 AMThere's really nothing the Feds can do since they're in charge of making sure vehicles maintain minimum safety standards, not how the car should be built and maintained.

They are in charge of maintaining competitive business practices, however. If the car manufacturers are intentionally engineering cars to only be serviced by dealers, that would be something they could regulate under antitrust law.

Not that I expect that to actually happen after this past Tuesday, but still.

I believe the only vehicle manufacturer that does that currently is Tesla. Just inform Elon that he can't do that... (haha)

You're speaking of the future head of this new department?
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/GX_-MBjWgAAKbRi.jpg)

Quote from: Scott5114 on November 12, 2024, 07:36:37 PM

Quote from: kalvado on November 12, 2024, 05:05:45 PMOne of the big points he made is that with more reliable product (he was specifically talking phones, but I assume cars are on a same page), manufacturer has to be able to collect payments during the service life of the product to justify extending service life.

The manufacturer doesn't have to be able to collect payments for the service life of the product. They want to be able to collect payments for the service life of the product.

My wife has had the same LG washer and dryer since before I met her. She's had them so long that she bought them from the Sears in Norman, back when Norman had a Sears. They're currently in storage here in Las Vegas, awaiting installation in the house we end up buying here. We don't pay LG anything for the washer and dryer, and last I checked LG was still a $62 billion company.

For most of the 20th century, reliability was considered a good thing in a product because it built brand loyalty. That only went out the window when companies started uniformly being run by greedy sons of bitches.

And a point would be made that washer and dryer do not need too much support - unlike phones and cars, where software updates and spares are a long term (costly) obligation..

Quote from: kalvado on November 13, 2024, 08:36:39 AMAnd a point would be made that washer and dryer do not need too much support - unlike phones and cars, where software updates and spares are a long term (costly) obligation..

If you made a car in such a way that its software needs to be updated, that means you are bad at writing software. Learn to use gdb and try again.

Quote from: Scott5114 on November 13, 2024, 09:35:23 AMIf you made a car in such a way that its software needs to be updated, that means you are bad at writing software. Learn to use gdb and try again.

Why is this? I use Python, and I very frequently encounter things that work in some of 3.9, 3.10, 3.11, and 3.12, but not all of them. (3.13 is out now, but I haven't used it yet.)

I imagine the same would be the same with every C++ version, although slightly less since they update every 3 years instead of every 1.

Plus even ignoring programming languages — Massachusetts exit number changes, new roundabouts, etc. if there's a GPS built into the car.

Quote from: Scott5114 on November 12, 2024, 12:05:31 AM

Quote from: jeffandnicole on November 10, 2024, 10:08:23 AMThere's really nothing the Feds can do since they're in charge of making sure vehicles maintain minimum safety standards, not how the car should be built and maintained.

They are in charge of maintaining competitive business practices, however. If the car manufacturers are intentionally engineering cars to only be serviced by dealers, that would be something they could regulate under antitrust law.

Not that I expect that to actually happen after this past Tuesday, but still.

Maybe, maybe not, any particular presidential administration notwithstanding.  John Deere was fighting a right-to-repair movement for years before settling with the Federal Trade Commission, and I'm guessing they settled only because its bean counters said it had reached the point where settling was the least costly option.  Even so, right-to-repair doesn't mean the manufacturer has to do anything to make repairs easier for the equipment owner.

Quote from: kalvado on November 13, 2024, 08:36:39 AMAnd a point would be made that washer and dryer do not need too much support - unlike phones and cars, where software updates and spares are a long term (costly) obligation

With all these "smart" appliances these days ...

I'm not sure why I want my washing machine to text me when my load is done. If I'm too busy to do something about it when the washer signals, I'll eventually get to it. I don't need a reminder.

Quote from: Scott5114 on November 13, 2024, 09:35:23 AM

Quote from: kalvado on November 13, 2024, 08:36:39 AMAnd a point would be made that washer and dryer do not need too much support - unlike phones and cars, where software updates and spares are a long term (costly) obligation..

If you made a car in such a way that its software needs to be updated, that means you are bad at writing software. Learn to use gdb and try again.

Look up history of Toyota unintended accelerations... Look up what Boeing did with 737...

Quote from: GaryV on November 13, 2024, 09:47:45 AM

Quote from: kalvado on November 13, 2024, 08:36:39 AMAnd a point would be made that washer and dryer do not need too much support - unlike phones and cars, where software updates and spares are a long term (costly) obligation

With all these "smart" appliances these days ...

I'm not sure why I want my washing machine to text me when my load is done. If I'm too busy to do something about it when the washer signals, I'll eventually get to it. I don't need a reminder.

Scott was referring to his old set, without too much extra features.
I am sure modern ones would try to collect as much subscription money as possible.  One of the reasons we turned down otherwise best on the market Bosch dishwasher.

Quote from: hotdogPi on November 13, 2024, 09:39:38 AM

Quote from: Scott5114 on November 13, 2024, 09:35:23 AMIf you made a car in such a way that its software needs to be updated, that means you are bad at writing software. Learn to use gdb and try again.

Why is this? I use Python, and I very frequently encounter things that work in some of 3.9, 3.10, 3.11, and 3.12, but not all of them. (3.13 is out now, but I haven't used it yet.)

I imagine the same would be the same with every C++ version, although slightly less since they update every 3 years instead of every 1.

This is one reason I won't use Python and why I curse PHP every time I have to use it. Python is an interpreted language, meaning there is a program that reads in the source code directly and converts it to machine instructions at runtime. This means that if the interpreter changes, it will break old code. (Note that this is not a guaranteed feature of an interpreted language; Perl is an interpreted language as well and I believe that it hasn't had a code-breaking change since the early 1990s.)

C and C++ are compiled languages, meaning that the programmer runs the code through a program called a compiler, which converts the source code to a series of machine instructions that are stores as a binary file (on Windows, this will be a file with the .exe extension). The binary then runs directly with no interpreter in the background, which is more efficient and uses less resources. Since there is no need for the code to be intepreted, normally just the binaries are distributed. The binaries will, theoretically, always work so long as it's hosted on a compatible processor and the correct version of any library files used are available (on Windows this is normally handled by just having copies of the correct version of any library files in the same directory as the EXE). The downsides of this is that any change to the code requires running the compiler again, debugging requires special tools like gdb to "see inside" the program, and also that it is easy to obscure how a program works by just not distributing the source code.

Of course, since the compiler is the one who rules what is and is valid language, I can write code in C89 if I really want to, and so long as I use a compiler from 1989, or one that has a switch that causes it to accept C89, I can generate brand new binaries that will run perfectly fine despite using code that's 35 years out of date, and nobody will be any the wiser. (There are reasons why this is probably not a great idea, but they mostly have to do with it being a pain in the ass on the programmer's end rather than it not being able to run on users' machines.)

Visual Basic is, incredibly, a compiled language, and I have a few silly VB6 programs I wrote in 2005 that will still run just fine on Windows.

This whole "you get to waste the afternoon debugging code that worked perfectly fine last week because the interpreter devs got a wild hair to change how the if statement works" stuff is a comparatively new, and particularly stupid, phenomenon. And it bites you in the ass even if you're not the dev—I have an Inkscape plugin that I depend on for my job that's currently broken because there's some bullshit going on with my Python version that I don't know how to resolve. As a workaround I've just been using my laptop and scrupulously not updating Python.

If someone is actually running interpreted code on an embedded system like a car, we should use that car to drive them 19 miles south of Battle Mountain and drop them off there without a ride back. Not only is it inefficient in a way that is impractical in a resource-limited system, it is also not secure because changing the code is a matter of editing a text file (modifying a compiled binary is possible, but it is extremely difficult, since you are more or less tweaking individual low-level processor instructions at that point).

Quote from: hotdogPi on November 13, 2024, 09:39:38 AMPlus even ignoring programming languages — Massachusetts exit number changes, new roundabouts, etc. if there's a GPS built into the car.

This is why I don't have a GPS built into my car. I don't want the car managing that.

Quote from: Scott5114 on November 13, 2024, 12:09:56 PM

Quote from: hotdogPi on November 13, 2024, 09:39:38 AM

Quote from: Scott5114 on November 13, 2024, 09:35:23 AMIf you made a car in such a way that its software needs to be updated, that means you are bad at writing software. Learn to use gdb and try again.

Why is this? I use Python, and I very frequently encounter things that work in some of 3.9, 3.10, 3.11, and 3.12, but not all of them. (3.13 is out now, but I haven't used it yet.)

I imagine the same would be the same with every C++ version, although slightly less since they update every 3 years instead of every 1.

This is one reason I won't use Python and why I curse PHP every time I have to use it. Python is an interpreted language, meaning there is a program that reads in the source code directly and converts it to machine instructions at runtime. This means that if the interpreter changes, it will break old code. (Note that this is not a guaranteed feature of an interpreted language; Perl is an interpreted language as well and I believe that it hasn't had a code-breaking change since the early 1990s.)

C and C++ are compiled languages, meaning that the programmer runs the code through a program called a compiler, which converts the source code to a series of machine instructions that are stores as a binary file (on Windows, this will be a file with the .exe extension). The binary then runs directly with no interpreter in the background, which is more efficient and uses less resources. Since there is no need for the code to be intepreted, normally just the binaries are distributed. The binaries will, theoretically, always work so long as it's hosted on a compatible processor and the correct version of any library files used are available (on Windows this is normally handled by just having copies of the correct version of any library files in the same directory as the EXE). The downsides of this is that any change to the code requires running the compiler again, debugging requires special tools like gdb to "see inside" the program, and also that it is easy to obscure how a program works by just not distributing the source code.

Of course, since the compiler is the one who rules what is and is valid language, I can write code in C89 if I really want to, and so long as I use a compiler from 1989, or one that has a switch that causes it to accept C89, I can generate brand new binaries that will run perfectly fine despite using code that's 35 years out of date, and nobody will be any the wiser. (There are reasons why this is probably not a great idea, but they mostly have to do with it being a pain in the ass on the programmer's end rather than it not being able to run on users' machines.)

Visual Basic is, incredibly, a compiled language, and I have a few silly VB6 programs I wrote in 2005 that will still run just fine on Windows.

This whole "you get to waste the afternoon debugging code that worked perfectly fine last week because the interpreter devs got a wild hair to change how the if statement works" stuff is a comparatively new, and particularly stupid, phenomenon. And it bites you in the ass even if you're not the dev—I have an Inkscape plugin that I depend on for my job that's currently broken because there's some bullshit going on with my Python version that I don't know how to resolve. As a workaround I've just been using my laptop and scrupulously not updating Python.

If someone is actually running interpreted code on an embedded system like a car, we should use that car to drive them 19 miles south of Battle Mountain and drop them off there without a ride back. Not only is it inefficient in a way that is impractical in a resource-limited system, it is also not secure because changing the code is a matter of editing a text file (modifying a compiled binary is possible, but it is extremely difficult, since you are more or less tweaking individual low-level processor instructions at that point).

Quote from: hotdogPi on November 13, 2024, 09:39:38 AMPlus even ignoring programming languages — Massachusetts exit number changes, new roundabouts, etc. if there's a GPS built into the car.

This is why I don't have a GPS built into my car. I don't want the car managing that.

In an unexpected twist of events, US government strongly recommends not to use C or C++ any more.

Quote from: kalvado on November 13, 2024, 01:20:20 PMIn an unexpected twist of events, US government strongly recommends not to use C or C++ any more.

Yes, because C/C++ do not do anything to stop you from accessing memory you shouldn't. Suppose you have an array of ten items, which in C would be numbered item[0] through item[9] and stored in consecutive memory cells.* But if you have a brain fart and, thinking "I have ten items", try to access item[10] (which is called a buffer overrun), it will happily serve up whatever happens to be in the cell next to item[9]. If that memory belongs to another program, this is called a segmentation fault and the OS should machinegun your process for it, but if that memory belongs to your program, then really anything can happen. And that presents a potential security issue.

This is traditionally handled by being a competent programmer and not accessing array indices that don't exist, but that is easier said than done. Newer languages manage memory automatically, which makes them less efficient, but it means that there are fewer potential mistakes a programmer can make. In a newer language, accessing the eleventh element of a ten-element array normally just results in memory being allocated for item[10] on the fly, and it will be treated like any other uninitialized variable would.

This has nothing to do with compiled vs. interpreted languages, mind you; Rust is an example of a newer compiled language that does dynamic memory management. Nor does it have anything to do with the frequency of breaking changes in interpreters; Perl also does dynamic memory management despite rarely making breaking changes.

*Array indices start at 0 because internally the array is handled as a pointer (which is a link to a memory address, much like a URL is a link to a Web page) to the first element of the array combined with an offset. So item[0] is "the element 0 items past the array pointer", item[1] is "the element 1 item past the pointer", and so on. (Incidentally, pointers are signified in C with a leading *, and this footnote about pointers also has a leading *.)

Quote from: Scott5114 on November 12, 2024, 12:05:31 AM

Quote from: jeffandnicole on November 10, 2024, 10:08:23 AMThere's really nothing the Feds can do since they're in charge of making sure vehicles maintain minimum safety standards, not how the car should be built and maintained.

They are in charge of maintaining competitive business practices, however. If the car manufacturers are intentionally engineering cars to only be serviced by dealers, that would be something they could regulate under antitrust law.

Not that I expect that to actually happen after this past Tuesday, but still.

There is also the Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnuson%E2%80%93Moss_Warranty_Act) to serve as a check on automakers' cash grabs.  Among other things, it prohibits automakers from requiring that customers go to the dealer for routine maintenance.

Quote from: kalvado on November 12, 2024, 08:48:36 AMAnd does anyone have a more or less personal example of a repair actually needing dealership involvement?

I can see several aspects.

First is, of course, authentic parts needed to be OEM approved. FU Steve Jobs.

Second is more reliable overall construction, with little small repairs needed until the point where cars were previously junked anyway.

Third, a more complicated electronic control system where things require an engineer rather than mechanic to diagnose.

Any other aspects of it?

The family fleet includes vehicles that are 15, 19, and 30 years old.  Of the three, only the 15-year-old has been to a dealer for actual repair in the past decade (earlier this year, for replacement of front brake pads, and again several years ago to replace a blower switch that failed prematurely due to a slip-up in the manufacturer's supply chain management).  We do visit dealer parts departments maybe once a year for OEM parts.

In addition to the reasons cited for going to the dealer, some manufacturers require customers to go through their dealers to access specific defect repair programs.  One example is the one Toyota offered for the oil-burning 2AZ-FE four-cylinder engine (at one time the base engine for the Camry and several other models).  In order for Toyota to finance the repair, which I understand consisted of complete replacement of the short block, a Toyota dealer had to verify that the engine was below a certain age (in terms of years and miles) and perform a test to determine that it was burning oil at more than a designated minimum rate.  Customers who missed any these thresholds had to have the repair performed at their own expense and could elect to have third-party shops (which include some Toyota specialists) handle it.

Quote from: wriddle082 on November 11, 2024, 09:16:50 AMFast forward to today, and once I do finally need a new vehicle, I will be a bit scared.

I would absolutely hate to try shopping for a new vehicle right now.  It's less about the money and more about the fact the current technologies are trash.

*  Turbos will drive oil sludging.

*  Gasoline direct injection is a good way to leave deposits on intake valves.

*  Touchscreens are a pain to work with and still underappreciated as an accident driver.

---

Regarding oil change intervals, I do my own oil changes with Pennzoil Platinum full synthetic (which I prefer based on Sequence IIIG test results) and go by the manufacturer's recommended mileage intervals (3,000 miles for the Saturn, 5,000 miles for the Toyota) unless the vehicle has an oil life minder.  Only the Honda does and the intervals its OLM suggests are generally around 7,500 miles.

I don't use a time interval.  All of the vehicles have good air filtration and no defects in oil temperature management we aren't aware of, so as long as total base number remains above unity, the oil is good to go.  One vehicle had its last oil change on January 8, 2018.

Quote from: J N Winkler on November 13, 2024, 02:43:03 PM

Quote from: Scott5114 on November 12, 2024, 12:05:31 AM

Quote from: jeffandnicole on November 10, 2024, 10:08:23 AMThere's really nothing the Feds can do since they're in charge of making sure vehicles maintain minimum safety standards, not how the car should be built and maintained.

They are in charge of maintaining competitive business practices, however. If the car manufacturers are intentionally engineering cars to only be serviced by dealers, that would be something they could regulate under antitrust law.

Not that I expect that to actually happen after this past Tuesday, but still.

There is also the Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnuson%E2%80%93Moss_Warranty_Act) to serve as a check on automakers' cash grabs.  Among other things, it prohibits automakers from requiring that customers go to the dealer for routine maintenance.

Quote from: kalvado on November 12, 2024, 08:48:36 AMAnd does anyone have a more or less personal example of a repair actually needing dealership involvement?

I can see several aspects.

First is, of course, authentic parts needed to be OEM approved. FU Steve Jobs.

Second is more reliable overall construction, with little small repairs needed until the point where cars were previously junked anyway.

Third, a more complicated electronic control system where things require an engineer rather than mechanic to diagnose.

Any other aspects of it?

The family fleet includes vehicles that are 15, 19, and 30 years old.  Of the three, only the 15-year-old has been to a dealer for actual repair in the past decade (earlier this year, for replacement of front brake pads, and again several years ago to replace a blower switch that failed prematurely due to a slip-up in the manufacturer's supply chain management).  We do visit dealer parts departments maybe once a year for OEM parts.

In addition to the reasons cited for going to the dealer, some manufacturers require customers to go through their dealers to access specific defect repair programs.  One example is the one Toyota offered for the oil-burning 2AZ-FE four-cylinder engine (at one time the base engine for the Camry and several other models).  In order for Toyota to finance the repair, which I understand consisted of complete replacement of the short block, a Toyota dealer had to verify that the engine was below a certain age (in terms of years and miles) and perform a test to determine that it was burning oil at more than a designated minimum rate.  Customers who missed any these thresholds had to have the repair performed at their own expense and could elect to have third-party shops (which include some Toyota specialists) handle it.

Quote from: wriddle082 on November 11, 2024, 09:16:50 AMFast forward to today, and once I do finally need a new vehicle, I will be a bit scared.

I would absolutely hate to try shopping for a new vehicle right now.  It's less about the money and more about the fact the current technologies are trash.

*  Turbos will drive oil sludging.

*  Gasoline direct injection is a good way to leave deposits on intake valves.

*  Touchscreens are a pain to work with and still underappreciated as an accident driver.

---

Regarding oil change intervals, I do my own oil changes with Pennzoil Platinum full synthetic (which I prefer based on Sequence IIIG test results) and go by the manufacturer's recommended mileage intervals (3,000 miles for the Saturn, 5,000 miles for the Toyota) unless the vehicle has an oil life minder.  Only the Honda does and the intervals its OLM suggests are generally around 7,500 miles.

I don't use a time interval.  All of the vehicles have good air filtration and no defects in oil temperature management we aren't aware of, so as long as total base number remains above unity, the oil is good to go.  One vehicle had its last oil change on January 8, 2018.

I do all of my own oil changes in my nearly 20 year old truck, with Mobil 1 oil and Wix XP oil filters.  I can also do other routine services, including brakes, though I have not done them in some time (I did recently buy a better floor jack because I plan on trying to replace my shocks soon).

I feel like AutoZone, Advance, O'Reilly, and all manufacturers of aftermarket auto parts should have a stronger lobby to help keep the automakers in check.

Quote from: Scott5114 on November 13, 2024, 02:40:35 PM

Quote from: kalvado on November 13, 2024, 01:20:20 PMIn an unexpected twist of events, US government strongly recommends not to use C or C++ any more.

Yes, because C/C++ do not do anything to stop you from accessing memory you shouldn't. Suppose you have an array of ten items, which in C would be numbered item[0] through item[9] and stored in consecutive memory cells.* But if you have a brain fart and, thinking "I have ten items", try to access item[10] (which is called a buffer overrun), it will happily serve up whatever happens to be in the cell next to item[9]. If that memory belongs to another program, this is called a segmentation fault and the OS should machinegun your process for it, but if that memory belongs to your program, then really anything can happen. And that presents a potential security issue.

This is traditionally handled by being a competent programmer and not accessing array indices that don't exist, but that is easier said than done. Newer languages manage memory automatically, which makes them less efficient, but it means that there are fewer potential mistakes a programmer can make. In a newer language, accessing the eleventh element of a ten-element array normally just results in memory being allocated for item[10] on the fly, and it will be treated like any other uninitialized variable would.

This has nothing to do with compiled vs. interpreted languages, mind you; Rust is an example of a newer compiled language that does dynamic memory management. Nor does it have anything to do with the frequency of breaking changes in interpreters; Perl also does dynamic memory management despite rarely making breaking changes.

*Array indices start at 0 because internally the array is handled as a pointer (which is a link to a memory address, much like a URL is a link to a Web page) to the first element of the array combined with an offset. So item[0] is "the element 0 items past the array pointer", item[1] is "the element 1 item past the pointer", and so on. (Incidentally, pointers are signified in C with a leading *, and this footnote about pointers also has a leading *.)

mov ax, 1
 lmsw ax

your move!

Quote from: Brandon on November 10, 2024, 08:57:10 AMIf you buy your tires from a place like Discount Tire, they do the rotate and balance for free as a part of buying the tires from them.  It takes maybe a half hour or so, depending on how busy they are.  Maybe Warren Tire has the same deal?

*checks recipt*
Yep, same deal.  Mount & Balance N/C - $0.00

Quote from: GaryV on November 13, 2024, 09:47:45 AM

Quote from: kalvado on November 13, 2024, 08:36:39 AMAnd a point would be made that washer and dryer do not need too much support - unlike phones and cars, where software updates and spares are a long term (costly) obligation

With all these "smart" appliances these days ...

I'm not sure why I want my washing machine to text me when my load is done. If I'm too busy to do something about it when the washer signals, I'll eventually get to it. I don't need a reminder.

I'd kind of like that feature because the washer is in a laundry closet downstairs and I can't hear the chime upstairs. As it is, I set a timer.

Quote from: 1995hoo on November 19, 2024, 01:14:54 PM

Quote from: GaryV on November 13, 2024, 09:47:45 AM

Quote from: kalvado on November 13, 2024, 08:36:39 AMAnd a point would be made that washer and dryer do not need too much support - unlike phones and cars, where software updates and spares are a long term (costly) obligation

With all these "smart" appliances these days ...

I'm not sure why I want my washing machine to text me when my load is done. If I'm too busy to do something about it when the washer signals, I'll eventually get to it. I don't need a reminder.

I'd kind of like that feature because the washer is in a laundry closet downstairs and I can't hear the chime upstairs. As it is, I set a timer.

Problem is that manufacturers love to do that via their cloud instead of some local link. And once they decide to stop supporting the feature - or you have a local network issue - cool stuff is no more. That is, leaving privacy concerns aside (I just hope they don't store pictures of my dirty laundry... at least not yet), potentially a service life limiting thing for the appliance. 
As a bad example of such net-dependent feature, Bosch dishwashers do not set delayed wash from the panel - that is done via app and cloud only. There may be workarounds, but... Not that delayed wash is a show-stopper for me, but my better part is adamant that is a must-have one

Quote from: vdeane on November 19, 2024, 12:43:31 PM

Quote from: Brandon on November 10, 2024, 08:57:10 AMIf you buy your tires from a place like Discount Tire, they do the rotate and balance for free as a part of buying the tires from them.  It takes maybe a half hour or so, depending on how busy they are.  Maybe Warren Tire has the same deal?

*checks recipt*

Yep, same deal.  Mount & Balance N/C - $0.00

The catch:  they won't touch your tires the instant they turn 10 years old.  (This is Discount Tire corporate policy, which was--untruthfully--explained to me as required by USDOT regulations.)

Quote from: J N Winkler on November 19, 2024, 03:27:21 PM

Quote from: vdeane on November 19, 2024, 12:43:31 PM

Quote from: Brandon on November 10, 2024, 08:57:10 AMIf you buy your tires from a place like Discount Tire, they do the rotate and balance for free as a part of buying the tires from them.  It takes maybe a half hour or so, depending on how busy they are.  Maybe Warren Tire has the same deal?

*checks recipt*

Yep, same deal.  Mount & Balance N/C - $0.00

The catch:  they won't touch your tires the instant they turn 10 years old.  (This is Discount Tire corporate policy, which was--untruthfully--explained to me as required by USDOT regulations.)

Makes sense, given that dry rot doesn't care how much you drive.  The idea that some people are driving on decade-old tires is kinda terrifying. :-o

No idea what Warren Tire's policy is on that, but tires don't last me a decade, so I have no cause to find out.  Incidentally, it seems like all-weather tires do have a less smooth ride than all-season tires; having the new tires feel the same as the old tires did when something was wrong with them all the time will take getting used to.

Quote from: Brandon on November 10, 2024, 08:57:10 AMIf you buy your tires from a place like Discount Tire, they do the rotate and balance for free as a part of buying the tires from them.  It takes maybe a half hour or so, depending on how busy they are.

That's a complete change from the "4 Tires, $100" promotion they ran for quite awhile.  That included bare-bones tires and nothing else -- no installation, valve stems, balancing, tire disposal, rotation, or road hazard warranty.

Quote from: 1995hoo on November 19, 2024, 01:14:54 PM

Quote from: GaryV on November 13, 2024, 09:47:45 AM

Quote from: kalvado on November 13, 2024, 08:36:39 AMAnd a point would be made that washer and dryer do not need too much support - unlike phones and cars, where software updates and spares are a long term (costly) obligation

With all these "smart" appliances these days ...

I'm not sure why I want my washing machine to text me when my load is done. If I'm too busy to do something about it when the washer signals, I'll eventually get to it. I don't need a reminder.

I'd kind of like that feature because the washer is in a laundry closet downstairs and I can't hear the chime upstairs. As it is, I set a timer.

Decent dimple 'old school' mechanical timers are über-cheap, too.

Mike

Quote from: J N Winkler on November 19, 2024, 03:27:21 PM

Quote from: vdeane on November 19, 2024, 12:43:31 PM

Quote from: Brandon on November 10, 2024, 08:57:10 AMIf you buy your tires from a place like Discount Tire, they do the rotate and balance for free as a part of buying the tires from them.  It takes maybe a half hour or so, depending on how busy they are.  Maybe Warren Tire has the same deal?

*checks recipt*

Yep, same deal.  Mount & Balance N/C - $0.00

The catch:  they won't touch your tires the instant they turn 10 years old.  (This is Discount Tire corporate policy, which was--untruthfully--explained to me as required by USDOT regulations.)

This was also corporate policy when I worked at Firestone. They also wouldn't repair a tire that was over five years old.

Quote from: Takumi on November 20, 2024, 03:04:16 PM

Quote from: J N Winkler on November 19, 2024, 03:27:21 PM

Quote from: vdeane on November 19, 2024, 12:43:31 PM

Quote from: Brandon on November 10, 2024, 08:57:10 AMIf you buy your tires from a place like Discount Tire, they do the rotate and balance for free as a part of buying the tires from them.  It takes maybe a half hour or so, depending on how busy they are.  Maybe Warren Tire has the same deal?

*checks recipt*

Yep, same deal.  Mount & Balance N/C - $0.00

The catch:  they won't touch your tires the instant they turn 10 years old.  (This is Discount Tire corporate policy, which was--untruthfully--explained to me as required by USDOT regulations.)

This was also corporate policy when I worked at Firestone. They also wouldn't repair a tire that was over five years old.

Walmart Auto Center won't touch 'em, either.

My mom got an old Chrysler Town & Country last year, and when we went to Walmart recently to get the tires rotated, they refused. We asked why, and they said the tires were 10 years old and then showed me the manufacturing date on the sidewall. Sure enough, they were made in March 2014. We had no idea the tires were that old. We got a new set last month.

Quote from: LM117 on November 22, 2024, 11:41:56 AM

Quote from: Takumi on November 20, 2024, 03:04:16 PM

Quote from: J N Winkler on November 19, 2024, 03:27:21 PM

Quote from: vdeane on November 19, 2024, 12:43:31 PM

Quote from: Brandon on November 10, 2024, 08:57:10 AMIf you buy your tires from a place like Discount Tire, they do the rotate and balance for free as a part of buying the tires from them.  It takes maybe a half hour or so, depending on how busy they are.  Maybe Warren Tire has the same deal?

*checks recipt*

Yep, same deal.  Mount & Balance N/C - $0.00

The catch:  they won't touch your tires the instant they turn 10 years old.  (This is Discount Tire corporate policy, which was--untruthfully--explained to me as required by USDOT regulations.)

This was also corporate policy when I worked at Firestone. They also wouldn't repair a tire that was over five years old.

Walmart Auto Center won't touch 'em, either.

My mom got an old Chrysler Town & Country last year, and when we went to Walmart recently to get the tires rotated, they refused. We asked why, and they said the tires were 10 years old and then showed me the manufacturing date on the sidewall. Sure enough, they were made in March 2014. We had no idea the tires were that old. We got a new set last month.

Not even a rotation? That seems rather anal-rententive.

Quote from: hbelkins on November 22, 2024, 01:56:36 PMNot even a rotation? That seems rather anal-retentive.

Not even a rotation.  The threshold for liability is "last person to touch the tire."

The shops that I feel are honest about this constraint tend to mention insurance rather than government regulations.  NHTSA (which is part of USDOT) did propose a 10-year age limit for passenger car tires in rulemaking in 2003, but this was abandoned when it was discovered that the 27% of insurance policyholders that live in four warm-weather states--California, Arizona, Texas, and Florida--account for 84% of all loss experience nationally that involves tire failure.

While dry rot is a thing, it is also discoverable through visual inspection.  Excessive heat, which can result not just from high ambient temperatures but also from running underinflated, still remains a principal cause of tire destruction.  In my view, there is little justification for forcing a person to replace a tire solely due to age if he or she has used it primarily in four-seasons areas, it is in good condition visually, and it has consistently been maintained at or above label pressures.

Do people still get their tires rotated? I haven't done that for years.

Quote from: SEWIGuy on November 22, 2024, 03:57:08 PMDo people still get their tires rotated? I haven't done that for years.

Yes.  Extends the life of the tires.

Quote from: SEWIGuy on November 22, 2024, 03:57:08 PMDo people still get their tires rotated? I haven't done that for years.

Every other oil change for me.

Quote from: SEWIGuy on November 22, 2024, 03:57:08 PMDo people still get their tires rotated? I haven't done that for years.

I do mine every oil change.  Not only is it in the maintenance schedule, but I can feel the difference in how the car handles.

Huh. I've owned cars for 30 years and have never rotated tires. They've lasted longer than advertised too.

Quote from: J N Winkler on November 22, 2024, 02:46:17 PMThe shops that I feel are honest about this constraint tend to mention insurance rather than government regulations.  NHTSA (which is part of USDOT) did propose a 10-year age limit for passenger car tires in rulemaking in 2003, but this was abandoned when it was discovered that the 27% of insurance policyholders that live in four warm-weather states--California, Arizona, Texas, and Florida--account for 84% of all loss experience nationally that involves tire failure.

While dry rot is a thing, it is also discoverable through visual inspection.  Excessive heat, which can result not just from high ambient temperatures but also from running underinflated, still remains a principal cause of tire destruction.  In my view, there is little justification for forcing a person to replace a tire solely due to age if he or she has used it primarily in four-seasons areas, it is in good condition visually, and it has consistently been maintained at or above label pressures.

Several years ago, I was going to be due for an oil change while on a trip in Florida.  I could've taken care of it early up here, but knew of a nearby Honda dealership near where we were staying and figured we can just do lunch nearby.

During the oil change, the service advisor 'advised' me that the tires were over 5 years old.  There was 1 over that age - I had to replace a tire due to an unrepairable nail in the sidewall, and used a slightly older tire that was in good shape.  The other 3 were newer.  The advisor then told me that Florida has a state law that tires cannot be over 5 years old.  She knew I was a NJ resident, so I figured she was trying to pull a fast one over me.  I declined to get new tires, and ultimately she stated that they wouldn't be responsible if anything happened to my tires (duh). 

When I got the bill, not too surprisingly nothing was mentioned about the supposed state law or even the tires' age in writing.

When I got home, I took a look, and as I suspected there doesn't appear to be any law regarding the age of tires in Florida.

It's one of those times I wished I had recorded the conversation.  Without it in writing, it's a "he said she said" situation that goes nowhere.  Having that recorded on my phone could've been a nice YouTube video documenting potential fraud.

Quote from: SEWIGuy on November 23, 2024, 07:24:58 AMHuh. I've owned cars for 30 years and have never rotated tires. They've lasted longer than advertised too.

*checks tread depths* :D

Quote from: hbelkins on November 22, 2024, 01:56:36 PM

Quote from: LM117 on November 22, 2024, 11:41:56 AM

Quote from: Takumi on November 20, 2024, 03:04:16 PM

Quote from: J N Winkler on November 19, 2024, 03:27:21 PM

Quote from: vdeane on November 19, 2024, 12:43:31 PM

Quote from: Brandon on November 10, 2024, 08:57:10 AMIf you buy your tires from a place like Discount Tire, they do the rotate and balance for free as a part of buying the tires from them.  It takes maybe a half hour or so, depending on how busy they are.  Maybe Warren Tire has the same deal?

*checks recipt*

Yep, same deal.  Mount & Balance N/C - $0.00

The catch:  they won't touch your tires the instant they turn 10 years old.  (This is Discount Tire corporate policy, which was--untruthfully--explained to me as required by USDOT regulations.)

This was also corporate policy when I worked at Firestone. They also wouldn't repair a tire that was over five years old.

Walmart Auto Center won't touch 'em, either.

My mom got an old Chrysler Town & Country last year, and when we went to Walmart recently to get the tires rotated, they refused. We asked why, and they said the tires were 10 years old and then showed me the manufacturing date on the sidewall. Sure enough, they were made in March 2014. We had no idea the tires were that old. We got a new set last month.

Not even a rotation? That seems rather anal-rententive.

Most (if not all) auto shops have that policy in order to shield them from potential lawsuits in case an old tire blew and a customer attempted to blame the shop that last touched the tire.

Walmart did check the air in the tires and made sure they had 36psi that the van called for, so there's that.

Quote from: SEWIGuy on November 23, 2024, 07:24:58 AMHuh. I've owned cars for 30 years and have never rotated tires. They've lasted longer than advertised too.

Many years ago, when I had tires from Sears that were covered by a lifetime rotate-and-balance warranty, I took the vehicle in for that service about once a year.  I didn't care about the rotation, but I did notice the immediate NVH improvement from restored wheel balance.

For a car that carries the majority of its weight on one axle, tire rotation can be beneficial in and of itself since it spreads the wear more evenly and raises the likelihood that at the next tire replacement, tread depth will justify replacement of all four tires rather than just the tires on one axle, which would leave you with an older set on the other axle that can age out of easy access to servicing.  However, my own experience has been that even some front-wheel-drive cars have pretty even weight distribution (it's about 55-45 for a 2005 Toyota Camry XLE V6, for example), and a high proportion of highway miles in the driving mix tends to promote uniform wear.

These days, I tend to avoid the need for wheel balancing by avoiding maneuvers that flat-spot the tires (e.g., I straighten out the steering wheel as I back up the car, instead of backing up, stopping, and cranking the steering while the car is stationary), and try to maintain good alignment by avoiding roads that are in poor repair.  I dislike having wheel alignments done because far too many shops cut corners by adjusting front toe on just one side, which results in the steering wheel being cocked to one side when the wheels are pointed straight ahead.

Quote from: jeffandnicole on November 23, 2024, 09:23:33 AMSeveral years ago, I was going to be due for an oil change while on a trip in Florida.  I could've taken care of it early up here, but knew of a nearby Honda dealership near where we were staying and figured we can just do lunch nearby.

During the oil change, the service advisor 'advised' me that the tires were over 5 years old.  There was 1 over that age - I had to replace a tire due to an unrepairable nail in the sidewall, and used a slightly older tire that was in good shape.  The other 3 were newer.  The advisor then told me that Florida has a state law that tires cannot be over 5 years old.  She knew I was a NJ resident, so I figured she was trying to pull a fast one over me.  I declined to get new tires, and ultimately she stated that they wouldn't be responsible if anything happened to my tires (duh). 

When I got the bill, not too surprisingly nothing was mentioned about the supposed state law or even the tires' age in writing.

When I got home, I took a look, and as I suspected there doesn't appear to be any law regarding the age of tires in Florida.

It's one of those times I wished I had recorded the conversation.  Without it in writing, it's a "he said she said" situation that goes nowhere.  Having that recorded on my phone could've been a nice YouTube video documenting potential fraud.

It totally doesn't surprise me that there are shops out there that use tire age to ease into upselling, even to the point of attempted fraud.  I have heard of some states that have seriously debated age limits--California proposed 10 years at one point--but I am not aware that such proposals have actually made their way onto the statute book.

The stylized fact is that the curve of tire failure rate plotted against age has a knee at six years.  This is why many car owners' manuals recommend replacement at that age.  However, I believe this reflects pessimistic assumptions about maintenance and service, such as no regular pressure checks or compensation for drops in ambient temperature and air percolation through the tire carcass.

Avoiding roads that are poorly maintained must cause some really fun detours.

Quote from: J N Winkler on November 23, 2024, 02:17:43 PMI didn't care about the rotation, but I did notice the immediate NVH improvement from restored wheel balance.

That's why I wouldn't skimp on them.  I have had NVH changes signal something being wrong with the car or tires many, many times, so I tend to get worried whenever I experience more vibration; it often means that there's a leaky tire, and one time it meant my wheel bering was going bad.  It always throws me when driving out of state, since most states seem to use asphalt mixes that cause more vibration than NY's.  I've had multiple trips just this year where I thought something was wrong with the car only to have the issue magically disappear once I got back in NY.

Quote from: J N Winkler on November 23, 2024, 02:17:43 PMHowever, I believe this reflects pessimistic assumptions about maintenance and service, such as no regular pressure checks or compensation for drops in ambient temperature and air percolation through the tire carcass.

Indeed.  I've had people assume that I had a flat tire just for doing routine top-ups of the air pressure while parked at my apartment.  Even just checking the pressure can cause people to ask questions.  People just don't do it.

Quote from: Rothman on November 23, 2024, 03:35:42 PMAvoiding roads that are poorly maintained must cause some really fun detours.

Indeed.  Although it will be interesting to see if I have fewer tire issues now that the two horrible sections of road that I drove on every day were finally repaved by the town over the last couple years.  I'm pretty sure there were potholes inside other potholes.

Quote from: Rothman on November 23, 2024, 03:35:42 PMAvoiding roads that are poorly maintained must cause some really fun detours.

He lives in Kansas.

Quote from: Scott5114 on November 23, 2024, 09:08:16 PM

Quote from: Rothman on November 23, 2024, 03:35:42 PMAvoiding roads that are poorly maintained must cause some really fun detours.

He lives in Kansas.

I might have been a little sarcastic.

Quote from: Rothman on November 23, 2024, 09:49:17 PM

Quote from: Scott5114 on November 23, 2024, 09:08:16 PM

Quote from: Rothman on November 23, 2024, 03:35:42 PMAvoiding roads that are poorly maintained must cause some really fun detours.

He lives in Kansas.

I might have been a little sarcastic.

You?

Quote from: Rothman on November 23, 2024, 09:49:17 PM

Quote from: Scott5114 on November 23, 2024, 09:08:16 PM

Quote from: Rothman on November 23, 2024, 03:35:42 PMAvoiding roads that are poorly maintained must cause some really fun detours.

He lives in Kansas.

I might have been a little sarcastic.

[sarcastic]I might have been a little sarcastic.[/sarcastic]

Quote from: Scott5114 on November 13, 2024, 02:40:35 PM

Quote from: kalvado on November 13, 2024, 01:20:20 PMIn an unexpected twist of events, US government strongly recommends not to use C or C++ any more.

Yes, because C/C++ do not do anything to stop you from accessing memory you shouldn't.

C was created as an alternative to assembly language for writing OS kernels and device drivers.  Being able to access whatever memory you want was an essential design choice.  Unfortunately, C and its descendents have come to be used for all sorts of things for which safety would be a better design choice.

Quote from: kkt on November 27, 2024, 06:52:23 PMC was created as an alternative to assembly language for writing OS kernels and device drivers.  Being able to access whatever memory you want was an essential design choice.  Unfortunately, C and its descendents have come to be used for all sorts of things for which safety would be a better design choice.

I'm not sure if it's true everywhere, but where I went to college, C practically had a cult-like status among the computer science students.  "If you can, do it in C" was very much the culture there.  The Kernighan and Ritchie book had a reverent status on par with the Bible.  It was not helped by the fact that a lot of the more popular classes used it as the main language of instruction.

Quote from: vdeane on November 27, 2024, 09:14:15 PM

Quote from: kkt on November 27, 2024, 06:52:23 PMC was created as an alternative to assembly language for writing OS kernels and device drivers.  Being able to access whatever memory you want was an essential design choice.  Unfortunately, C and its descendents have come to be used for all sorts of things for which safety would be a better design choice.

I'm not sure if it's true everywhere, but where I went to college, C practically had a cult-like status among the computer science students.  "If you can, do it in C" was very much the culture there.  The Kernighan and Ritchie book had a reverent status on par with the Bible.  It was not helped by the fact that a lot of the more popular classes used it as the main language of instruction.

Programming in C is like driving a manual. They both appeal to the same sort people for the same sort of reasons.

I do think that knowing C makes you a better programmer because it forces you to understand what is going on under the hood in a way that other languages do not. (I don't necessarily know if knowing how to drive stick makes you a better driver, though.)

Quote from: Scott5114 on November 27, 2024, 09:57:27 PMI don't necessarily know if knowing how to drive stick makes you a better driver, though.

Maybe not knowing how, but driving one certainly does.  Several bad habits most drivers seem to have become really annoying and/or difficult to do when you have to manually shift gears.

Quote from: Scott5114 on November 27, 2024, 09:57:27 PMProgramming in C is like driving a manual. They both appeal to the same sort people for the same sort of reasons.

Sort of, but the big reason I reach for C is speed, or (less commonly) systems programming that isn't available in something higher level. However, the kids nowadays will recommend Rust, Zig or even Go in that space, though I like the fact that a C compiler is available for just about everything. But I'm no longer hip.

Quote from: vdeane on November 28, 2024, 12:24:37 PM

Quote from: Scott5114 on November 27, 2024, 09:57:27 PMI don't necessarily know if knowing how to drive stick makes you a better driver, though.

Maybe not knowing how, but driving one certainly does.  Several bad habits most drivers seem to have become really annoying and/or difficult to do when you have to manually shift gears.

A manual transmission also really does give a driver better control over the car.

Mike

Quote from: mgk920 on November 29, 2024, 01:11:39 PMA manual transmission also really does give a driver better control over the car.

Indeed.  I could not imagine trying to drive on a snow-covered road on anything else.

Quote from: ClassicHasClass on November 28, 2024, 09:28:16 PM

Quote from: Scott5114 on November 27, 2024, 09:57:27 PMProgramming in C is like driving a manual. They both appeal to the same sort people for the same sort of reasons.

Sort of, but the big reason I reach for C is speed, or (less commonly) systems programming that isn't available in something higher level. However, the kids nowadays will recommend Rust, Zig or even Go in that space, though I like the fact that a C compiler is available for just about everything. But I'm no longer hip.

This makes sense, although what speed you gain from C, you often lose back while you play the World Series of malloc() or try to figure out which pointer has shot off into space and segfaulted. C is fun to putter around with, but if it's something I actually intend to use on a regular basis, I normally reach for Perl. There's a greater chance I'll actually finish the thing.

I haven't ever written any Rust, but I did read its documentation once. Some of the ways it solves C's problems are pretty clever, so I keep meaning to go back and give it a fair shot.

Quote from: Scott5114 on November 30, 2024, 01:09:22 PMI normally reach for Perl.

Somebody else still uses Perl! I just can't get into Python.

For utilities where speed isn't critical, Perl is exactly what I usually write it in.

Quote from: ClassicHasClass on November 30, 2024, 03:27:44 PM

Quote from: Scott5114 on November 30, 2024, 01:09:22 PMI normally reach for Perl.

Somebody else still uses Perl! I just can't get into Python.

For utilities where speed isn't critical, Perl is exactly what I usually write it in.

Perl sticks in my brain a lot better than other languages because it is just the right amount of weird for me. Any other language I have to look up what the equivalent to "chomp" is every time I use it, but Perl...well, it's chomp, that's unusual enough of a name that I remember it. Also it's nice not having your interpreter break your code every other update. (I spent way too much time once tracing down a sudden PHP bug that manifested because they made a subtle change to what evaluates to 'true' and 'false'.)