I've been seeing many websites saying three different cities are the tenth most populous US city.
One source reveals Jacksonville, FL. Another San Jose, CA. Than a third reveals Austin, TX to be the tenth spot.
However all websites admit in one way that those three cities are 10-11-12 in various orders.
The official 2020 census lists San Jose as the 10th largest city. Anything else is someone guessing at what it might be.
The 10th largest metropolitan statistical area in the U.S. as of the 2020 Census is Boston (4.9 million). Phoenix has surpassed it to take 10th in the 2023 estimates after they hit 5 million.
The 10th largest combined statistical area in the U.S. as of the 2020 Census and 2023 estimate is Atlanta.
The 10th largest population within city limits as of the 2020 Census is San Jose (1,013,240). As of the 2023 estimate, Jacksonville (985,843) is in 10th, ahead of Austin; San Jose had dropped down to 13th.
Some websites are using the 2020 Census for city populations or metro area populations (MSA and CSA can also be a factor); some might be using more recent estimates. Don't trust anything that doesn't cite their sources (as with most things online). I find using just the city population to be pointless when comparing places across the nation; the metropolitan areas are usually more sensible because city boundaries can be arbitrarily small (as is the case on the West Coast) or too large (Columbus, Jacksonville, San Antonio). But even then, the MSA might be missing areas (such as Kitsap County not being included in the Seattle MSA).
CSAs can be kind of weird, too—the one including Las Vegas gloms Pahrump onto it. While, yeah, it's the one major-ish Southern Nevada town that isn't in Clark County, it's also on the other side of a mountain pass, such that I doubt that most people in Pahrump actually come to Las Vegas very often.
Quote from: Scott5114 on November 14, 2024, 08:43:14 PMCSAs can be kind of weird, too—the one including Las Vegas gloms Pahrump onto it. While, yeah, it's the one major-ish Southern Nevada town that isn't in Clark County, it's also on the other side of a mountain pass, such that I doubt that most people in Pahrump actually come to Las Vegas very often.
When I first heard that there was a town in Nevada called Pahrump, this was my reaction:
:rofl:
In all seriousness though, I think it's interesting that CSAs go by county and not by the general surrounding area. I guess it does make organizing metro areas easier though, so I wouldn't argue against it.
Quote from: PNWRoadgeek on November 14, 2024, 09:05:25 PMWhen I first heard that there was a town in Nevada called Pahrump, this was my reaction:
:rofl:
Making it worse:
- It is the closest town to Las Vegas with legal prostitution
- They insist on putting the emphasis on the 2nd syllable (it's pah-RUMP, not PAH-rump)
- They have a casino called the Pahrump Nugget.
Quote from: Scott5114 on November 14, 2024, 09:08:59 PMMaking it worse:
- It is the closest town to Las Vegas with legal prostitution
- They insist on putting the emphasis on the 2nd syllable (it's pah-RUMP, not PAH-rump)
- They have a casino called the Pahrump Nugget.
Ah, Pahrump seems like quite an interesting place, doesn't it? I've never been to Pahrump, so I'm not an expert on what typically goes on there, especially whatever that Pahrump Nugget place is. I assume it's a casino considering the Golden Nugget has a similar name? I don't know.
Quote from: PNWRoadgeek on November 14, 2024, 10:13:55 PMI've never been to Pahrump, so I'm not an expert on what typically goes on there...
My favorite Pahrump story is that they once had two people running for a justice of peace office, campaigning that they knew the justice system better because they had been arrested more times than their opponent. There was also that time they elected a dead pimp to represent them in the State Assembly. There also used to be a national radio show broadcast from there about paranormal activities.
I've been there once since I moved to Nevada and I think that's probably enough for the time being.
Quote from: Scott5114 on November 14, 2024, 10:42:47 PMMy favorite Pahrump story is that they once had two people running for a justice of peace office, campaigning that they knew the justice system better because they had been arrested more times than their opponent. There was also that time they elected a dead pimp to represent them in the State Assembly. There also used to be a national radio show broadcast from there about paranormal activities.
I've been there once since I moved to Nevada and I think that's probably enough for the time being.
This definitely gave me a good chuckle. I think once would be enough for me as well. Heck, even if I didn't visit Pahrump at all I wouldn't be missing out on anything good.
A little over twenty years ago when I was doing support for a dial-up ISP, we also did after-hours support two-three other ISPs including a Las Vegas-based one which serviced the town of Pahrump. One of the user logins was "stuckinpahrump".
One of the challenges that I have with comparing city sizes is that they often rely on the city population and ignore the surrounding cities. This may have been true back in the 1940s-1950s, but things have changed. Consider these city population figures from 2020:
- Houston, TX: 2,301,572
- Dallas, TX: 1,304,379
- Fort Worth, TX: 956,709
- Las Vegas, NV: 641,903
- Detroit, MI: 639,111
- Sacramento, CA: 524,943
Right, but like I said, this ignore surrounding communities. DFW, for example, is considered one big metroplex. One way to look at it is to use the "Metropolitian Statistical Areas" (MSAs) as a comparison point which combines several contiguous counties into one area. Consider:
- Dallas–Fort Worth–Arlington, TX MSA - 7,637,387 which includes Dallas (17.1%) and Fort Worth (12.5%)
- Houston–Pasadena–The Woodlands, TX MSA - 7,149,642 which includes Houston (32.2%)
- Detroit–Warren–Dearborn, MI MSA - 4,392,041 which includes Detroit (14.6%)
- Las Vegas–Henderson–North Las Vegas, NV MSA - 2,265,461 which includes Las Vegas (28.3%)
- Sacramento–Roseville–Folsom, CA MSA - 2,397,382 which includes Sacramento (21.8%)
I would consider myself a resident of Dallas even though I actually live in one of the smaller cities and am just one mile from the Dallas County line. The congressional district which I live in goes into the city of Dallas. Much of what we consider the "Las Vegas Strip" actually in the unincorporated area of Paradise, NV, but even has a large "Welcome to Vegas" sign, and is where the Las Vegas Raiders play. The Dallas Cowboys actually play in Arlington, TX, and their practice facilities and headquarters are in Frisco, TX.
If you want to look at New York City's MSA, you'll find that it's population exceeds that of New York State and includes parts of New Jersey and Connecticut.
Quote from: PNWRoadgeek on November 14, 2024, 09:05:25 PMIn all seriousness though, I think it's interesting that CSAs go by county and not by the general surrounding area. I guess it does make organizing metro areas easier though, so I wouldn't argue against it.
The Census Bureau has separate classifications for urbanized areas that don't have to follow county lines, but these aren't used as much.
MSAs have their own issues, though - they're built on:
• Counties, which are fixed, so can't adjust based on new growth patterns (other than adding other counties), and can contain large rural swaths,
• Commuting data, which was perhaps a useful metric in the days of single-income worker commuting to a dominant employment center, but in the days of multiple income earners (and often multiple jobs among those earners), multiple major employment centers in one area, and remote work, seems antiquated and ignores a multitude of other socio-economic factors (which are admittedly harder to track with hard data).
So in California, for example, you end up with situations like:
• Santa Barbara County, which has two urban areas (Santa Barbara and Santa Maria) at opposite ends of the county, 75 miles apart. Each are big enough to be their own metro area, but because of county lines, they're the same metro;
• San Francisco-Oakland and San Jose, which have unbroken urban development between them and are considered one region (the Bay Area) by media, academics, and socially, but because of commuting data, are broken into two metros;
• San Bernardino County, which has 2.4 million people, nearly all concentrated in the southwest corner of the county, but because the county itself is so huge, Needles, population 4,500, separated from San Bernardino by 210 miles of desert, is considered part of the metropolitan area.
Census-defined Urban Areas solve this problem to an extent (using contiguous built-up areas as a building block, ignoring governmental boundaries), but still uses commuting data (so San Francisco and San Jose are still separated), yet allows small geographic breaks to separate areas (so Antioch-Pittsburg, Concord-Walnut Creek, and Oakland are separate urban areas because of breaks of under 3 miles of hills).
One of the fundamental concepts at work here that is endlessly fascinating is:
- are certain metro/urban areas truly centered on one city, or can the focal point be actually amongst multiple cities?
Sure, that's obvious in region names (i.e. the Dallas-Fort Worth Metroplex) but the above posts also highlight how much trying to create a granular explanation of the above can be difficult if trying to use objective boundaries/measures.
i.e. Solano County: most of it is very much Bay Area (Vallejo, Benicia) but Dixon at its furthest east is pretty much Central Valley/almost metro Sacramento.
Growing up in the Bay I was born in SF but live in a nearby suburb and always tell people I'm from that suburb - identifying or self-identifying from San Francisco is something very specific to people in city limits for the most part, especially with the sporting and cultural rivalries/divide between them and Oakland.
Lots of media folk often mix up cities and their CSAs.
Example of weird MSA-ness in Michigan:
Allegan County called the Holland MSA. Holland is in both Allegan County and Ottawa County. The main part of the city, including downtown, is in Ottawa County. But Ottawa County is in the Grand Rapids MSA.
Quote from: DTComposer on November 14, 2024, 11:50:49 PMMSAs have their own issues, though - they're built on:
• Counties, which are fixed, so can't adjust based on new growth patterns (other than adding other counties), and can contain large rural swaths,
• Commuting data, which was perhaps a useful metric in the days of single-income worker commuting to a dominant employment center, but in the days of multiple income earners (and often multiple jobs among those earners), multiple major employment centers in one area, and remote work, seems antiquated and ignores a multitude of other socio-economic factors (which are admittedly harder to track with hard data).
So in California, for example, you end up with situations like:
• Santa Barbara County, which has two urban areas (Santa Barbara and Santa Maria) at opposite ends of the county, 75 miles apart. Each are big enough to be their own metro area, but because of county lines, they're the same metro;
• San Francisco-Oakland and San Jose, which have unbroken urban development between them and are considered one region (the Bay Area) by media, academics, and socially, but because of commuting data, are broken into two metros;
• San Bernardino County, which has 2.4 million people, nearly all concentrated in the southwest corner of the county, but because the county itself is so huge, Needles, population 4,500, separated from San Bernardino by 210 miles of desert, is considered part of the metropolitan area.
Census-defined Urban Areas solve this problem to an extent (using contiguous built-up areas as a building block, ignoring governmental boundaries), but still uses commuting data (so San Francisco and San Jose are still separated), yet allows small geographic breaks to separate areas (so Antioch-Pittsburg, Concord-Walnut Creek, and Oakland are separate urban areas because of breaks of under 3 miles of hills).
There are also New England's NECTAs, which are town-based by necessity due to some states no longer having county governments, but in a way they could work in other parts of the country with strange county boundaries.
Quote from: DTComposer on November 14, 2024, 11:50:49 PMMSAs have their own issues, though - they're built on:
• Counties, which are fixed, so can't adjust based on new growth patterns (other than adding other counties), and can contain large rural swaths
I agree. The Sacramento–Roseville–Folsom, CA MSA, for example, includes Placer and El Dorado counties which stretch from Sacramento county to the Lake Tahoe area of the California State Line. Likewise, as previously pointed out, San Bernardino County, at 20,105 square miles, is the largest county within the United States, and is bigger than that the total area of Maryland.
Can't believe Jacksonville is the ~10th-largest city. The only time city population is useful is to infer the effects of municipal boundaries on certain statistics. i.e. St. Louis' crime rate is astronomical in part because the city limits are tight compared to most major cities, and as a result contain less of the further-reaching neighborhoods that tend to have lower crime and bring down a city's averages.
By the end of this decade, I suspect:
-- Houston will catch Chicago for 3rd largest city.
-- San Antonio will catch Philadelphia for the 6th largest city.
-- Only a quarter-million will separate Dallas ahead of Ft. Worth by 2030.
-- Florida will be the eight (8th) state in US history to have a millionaire city: Jacksonville.
-- Texas will be the only state to have five (5) millionaire cities (Austin and Ft. Worth should reach the million mark milestone within the next couple of years).
-- DFW metroplex will be the first in North America history to have ever have a pair of millionaire cities within the same metro area.
Quote from: jgb191 on November 15, 2024, 12:01:06 PM-- DFW metroplex will be the first in North America history to have ever have a pair of millionaire cities within the same metro area.
Too late for this one. Mexico City, Ecatepec, and Nezahualcóyotl are all in the Mexico City metro.
Zapopan and Guadalajara are both in the same metro too.
I always look at urban population over city proper or metro population. Boston is in 10th place. With that it goes NYC, LA, Chicago, Miami, Houston, Dallas-Fort Worth, Philly, DC, Atlanta and Boston.
Quote from: Flint1979 on November 15, 2024, 12:08:33 PMI always look at urban population over city proper or metro population. Boston is in 10th place. With that it goes NYC, LA, Chicago, Miami, Houston, Dallas-Fort Worth, Philly, DC, Atlanta and Boston.
This is generally what I use as well, except the Census Bureau introduces commuting data that pulls the definitions away from the reality of continuous urban development.
For example, the boundary between two separate urban areas (Los Angeles-Long Beach and Riverside-San Bernardino) runs through this picture. Any guess where? Hint: it is a very irregular boundary that runs diagonally though the picture and almost never follows a freeway or arterial road.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/54142521663_da8a533ac7_k.jpg)
The same thing happens between Dallas-Fort Worth and Frisco-McKinney, between San Francisco and San Jose, and other places. For the Bay Area, the reality is there is a string of unbroken urban development (save for the Golden Gate Bridge) from Novato south to San Jose and north to Crockett with 5.3 million people.
From Jupiter to Homestead in Florida. All unbroken urban development.
What about now between Wilmington and Philadelphia and from Philadelphia to New York?
One can really say from Northern Virginia to Massachusetts is all one long developed area of continuous communities.
One measure is by the television market. Per this article (https://www.sportsbusinessjournal.com/Articles/2024/09/30/nielsen-markets), the DFW area gained 134,060 television household while Philadelphia lost 30,620 households. That now makes the DFW television market the #4 television market while Philadelphia drops to #5.
That's not a very good measurement, though, because a lot of people don't follow traditional television anymore. That article talks about NYC losing 100,000 TV homes, but I doubt it lost 100,000 actual people; they just stopped watching TV. (The article doesn't give the context of whether a home that's streaming only counts as a "TV home" per these measurements.)
The television markets are population based, and covers more than a city, but multiple surrounding areas as well. The top 25 Television Markets cover 50% of the television households. The problem is that Nielson hasn't released a full list of markets for the past 3 years. Also, practically the entire state of Utah is considered a single television market.
Quote from: Scott5114 on November 18, 2024, 04:58:02 AMThat's not a very good measurement, though, because a lot of people don't follow traditional television anymore. That article talks about NYC losing 100,000 TV homes, but I doubt it lost 100,000 actual people; they just stopped watching TV. (The article doesn't give the context of whether a home that's streaming only counts as a "TV home" per these measurements.)
Seems like Nielson Media would be better qualified to know what's a good measurement than people who don't measure ratings as their business model. This article isn't for the average person; it's geared to advertisers who determine how to market their products.
Note the article was very specific to TV homes. They have numerous other analytics to determine how people are watching programs. You're reading more into this than what is intended. (And if NYC lost 100,000 TV homes, you're thinking 1 person = 1 TV home. It's probably more like 2.3 people, and then that's subdivided down into sex, age, and other demographics)
Quote from: jeffandnicole on November 18, 2024, 08:45:54 AMQuote from: Scott5114 on November 18, 2024, 04:58:02 AMThat's not a very good measurement, though, because a lot of people don't follow traditional television anymore. That article talks about NYC losing 100,000 TV homes, but I doubt it lost 100,000 actual people; they just stopped watching TV. (The article doesn't give the context of whether a home that's streaming only counts as a "TV home" per these measurements.)
Seems like Nielson Media would be better qualified to know what's a good measurement than people who don't measure ratings as their business model. This article isn't for the average person; it's geared to advertisers who determine how to market their products.
Then why did
@ZLoth post it in a thread that is not at all about marketing products, gearing to advertisers, or modelling businesses?
Seems like if someone is holding it out as a general-purpose measuring stick one can critique its usage as such without someone jumping down their throat about how Capitalism Is Always Right Actually.
Quote from: Scott5114 on November 18, 2024, 09:00:08 AMQuote from: jeffandnicole on November 18, 2024, 08:45:54 AMSeems like Nielson Media would be better qualified to know what's a good measurement than people who don't measure ratings as their business model. This article isn't for the average person; it's geared to advertisers who determine how to market their products.
Then why did @ZLoth post it in a thread that is not at all about marketing products, gearing to advertisers, or modelling businesses?
Because it's another method of measuring and ranking a collections of metropolitan areas, cities, towns, villages, or what have you. In this case, the measurement area for number ten is San Francisco-Oakland-San Jose.
There is no question that the top three is New York, Los Angeles, and San Jose. Beyond that, it's subject to interpretation based upon what methodology you elect to use.
Quote from: DTComposer on November 15, 2024, 05:08:33 PMQuote from: Flint1979 on November 15, 2024, 12:08:33 PMI always look at urban population over city proper or metro population. Boston is in 10th place. With that it goes NYC, LA, Chicago, Miami, Houston, Dallas-Fort Worth, Philly, DC, Atlanta and Boston.
This is generally what I use as well, except the Census Bureau introduces commuting data that pulls the definitions away from the reality of continuous urban development.
For example, the boundary between two separate urban areas (Los Angeles-Long Beach and Riverside-San Bernardino) runs through this picture. Any guess where? Hint: it is a very irregular boundary that runs diagonally though the picture and almost never follows a freeway or arterial road.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/54142521663_da8a533ac7_k.jpg)
The same thing happens between Dallas-Fort Worth and Frisco-McKinney, between San Francisco and San Jose, and other places. For the Bay Area, the reality is there is a string of unbroken urban development (save for the Golden Gate Bridge) from Novato south to San Jose and north to Crockett with 5.3 million people.
True and also My guess the Industrial buildings on the east side are Inland Empire and the houses that are on the west side of the picture is Los Angeles county.
(https://solanopublictransitfans.neocities.org/Screenshot%202025-04-05%2016:52:25.png)
Quote from: ZLoth on November 14, 2024, 11:06:52 PMA little over twenty years ago when I was doing support for a dial-up ISP, we also did after-hours support two-three other ISPs including a Las Vegas-based one which serviced the town of Pahrump. One of the user logins was "stuckinpahrump".
One of the challenges that I have with comparing city sizes is that they often rely on the city population and ignore the surrounding cities. This may have been true back in the 1940s-1950s, but things have changed. Consider these city population figures from 2020:
- Houston, TX: 2,301,572
- Dallas, TX: 1,304,379
- Fort Worth, TX: 956,709
- Las Vegas, NV: 641,903
- Detroit, MI: 639,111
- Sacramento, CA: 524,943
Right, but like I said, this ignore surrounding communities. DFW, for example, is considered one big metroplex. One way to look at it is to use the "Metropolitian Statistical Areas" (MSAs) as a comparison point which combines several contiguous counties into one area. Consider:
- Dallas–Fort Worth–Arlington, TX MSA - 7,637,387 which includes Dallas (17.1%) and Fort Worth (12.5%)
- Houston–Pasadena–The Woodlands, TX MSA - 7,149,642 which includes Houston (32.2%)
- Detroit–Warren–Dearborn, MI MSA - 4,392,041 which includes Detroit (14.6%)
- Las Vegas–Henderson–North Las Vegas, NV MSA - 2,265,461 which includes Las Vegas (28.3%)
- Sacramento–Roseville–Folsom, CA MSA - 2,397,382 which includes Sacramento (21.8%)
I would consider myself a resident of Dallas even though I actually live in one of the smaller cities and am just one mile from the Dallas County line. The congressional district which I live in goes into the city of Dallas. Much of what we consider the "Las Vegas Strip" actually in the unincorporated area of Paradise, NV, but even has a large "Welcome to Vegas" sign, and is where the Las Vegas Raiders play. The Dallas Cowboys actually play in Arlington, TX, and their practice facilities and headquarters are in Frisco, TX.
If you want to look at New York City's MSA, you'll find that it's population exceeds that of New York State and includes parts of New Jersey and Connecticut.
What handicaps Detroit is that once it grew out to the 139 square miles that the city is they couldn't annex anymore land because of other cities and Redford being a charter township bordering it. Detroit has that population in 139 square miles. Detroit is located in Wayne County and Wayne County has a land area of 612 square miles which is about the same size as the mega cities like Houston and Phoenix and so on. In those 612 square miles Wayne County has a population of 1,793,561. That would be the 5th largest city in the United States if the entire county was one city. Wayne County now is actually below Detroit's peak population as well, Detroit peaked at 1,849,568 in 1950 and Wayne County peaked at 2,666,751 in 1970 and both have lost population in every census since.
Quote from: ZLoth on November 18, 2024, 06:30:34 AMThe television markets are population based, and covers more than a city, but multiple surrounding areas as well. The top 25 Television Markets cover 50% of the television households. The problem is that Nielson hasn't released a full list of markets for the past 3 years. Also, practically the entire state of Utah is considered a single television market.
When I lived in Little Rock, the LR TV stations treated Arkansas as their whole market even though nobody in each corner of the state was watching or could.
According to 2023, San Jose (city proper) is around 970K, so I'm wondering how accurate the 2020 figure was; doesn't seem like it's reached a million just yet but it will reach a million in a year or two the way it's been growing fast; only a matter of time before California sees its third millionaire city.
Talk about a hot button topic if there ever was one! If we were to include the 10 most populous cities in America, the usual suspects come to mind (Chicago, L.A., New York, Philly), but then you'd see newcomers that didn't even crack the million mark 30 years ago. So here it is by population as of 2023, according to Wikipedia:
1. New York, NY (8,258,035)
2. Los Angeles, CA (3,820,914)
3. Chicago, IL (2,664,452)
4. Houston, TX (2,314,157)
5. Phoenix, AZ (1,650,070)
6. Philadelphia, PA (1,550,542)
7. San Antonio, TX (1,495,295)
8. San Diego, CA (1,388,320)
9. Dallas, TX (1,302,868)
10. Jacksonville, FL (985,843)
Quote from: jgb191 on April 08, 2025, 08:16:47 PMAccording to 2023, San Jose (city proper) is around 970K, so I'm wondering how accurate the 2020 figure was; doesn't seem like it's reached a million just yet but it will reach a million in a year or two the way it's been growing fast; only a matter of time before California sees its third millionaire city.
Like the majority of the largest cities in the country, San Jose lost population 2020-2021; the housing affordability issue has meant that the largest California cities (Los Angeles, San Diego, San Jose, San Francisco) have been slower to turn that around than the rest of the country.
According to the Census estimates for cities, from 2022-2023 Los Angeles and San Jose had minimal losses, and San Diego and San Francisco had minimal gains.
The 2024 estimates for counties has been released (estimates for cities come out later in the year), and it shows Santa Clara County gaining 29,000 from 2023-2024. Since San Jose is half the county's population, one would expect to see growth for the city.
Estimates should always be taken with a grain of salt, and it should be noted that the Census Bureau revises previous estimates with each new release. For example, comparing the 2023 city estimates and 2024 county estimates for San Francisco (co-extensive city-county), for 2024 they have revised their estimates upward for each year (July 1 2020, 2021, 2022, 2023).
Quote from: Scott5114 on November 14, 2024, 09:08:59 PMThey have a casino called the Pahrump Nugget
Quote from: PNWRoadgeek on November 14, 2024, 10:13:55 PMwhatever that Pahrump Nugget place is. I assume it's a casino
And they say Americans have low reading comprehension.
Quote from: kphoger on April 09, 2025, 11:58:06 AMQuote from: Scott5114 on November 14, 2024, 09:08:59 PMThey have a casino called the Pahrump Nugget
Quote from: PNWRoadgeek on November 14, 2024, 10:13:55 PMwhatever that Pahrump Nugget place is. I assume it's a casino
And they say Americans have low reading comprehension.
They also say that Americans don't read well.
To be fair, outside of me who on this forum has been a frequent visitor to Pahrump?
Quote from: kphoger on April 09, 2025, 11:58:06 AMQuote from: Scott5114 on November 14, 2024, 09:08:59 PMThey have a casino called the Pahrump Nugget
Quote from: PNWRoadgeek on November 14, 2024, 10:13:55 PMwhatever that Pahrump Nugget place is. I assume it's a casino
And they say Americans have low reading comprehension.
(https://i.redd.it/i3j7ouvqd3ub1.jpg)
Quote from: TheStranger on November 15, 2024, 04:59:35 AMi.e. Solano County: most of it is very much Bay Area (Vallejo, Benicia) but Dixon at its furthest east is pretty much Central Valley/almost metro Sacramento.
Growing up in the Bay I was born in SF but live in a nearby suburb and always tell people I'm from that suburb - identifying or self-identifying from San Francisco is something very specific to people in city limits for the most part, especially with the sporting and cultural rivalries/divide between them and Oakland.
Solano County is a case of having to respond to suburban sprawl coming from two different census areas like Sacramento and Bay Area in this case. I am in one of these households where the rest of my family works in the Bay Area while I work in Sacramento.