In the USA and in a few places in Canada the North, West, East and South directions have their 1st letter enlarged. I know they started quite recently with this but when they exactly started with this and why they do it.
The large capital and small capital treatment in cardinal direction lettering for highway signs has been going on in the US for more than a decade. IIRC, it dates back to the early 2000's. The funny thing is those lettering treatments are worthless work-arounds. It's all fake.
None of the highway fonts currently in use or in use in the past have any kind of properly correct small capitals character sets. It does not exist at all in the limited FHWA Series Gothic character set. Clearview Highway does not have native small capitals at all either. But the Clearview One type family does have small capitals in its character set.
It's possible to gracefully fake small capitals in lettering using a variable font that has a variable weight axis. The weight of the large capital letters can be visually balanced with the weight of the small cap letters. But, alas, there are no highway fonts in variable form. Most industry-specific applications for sign making still do not support variable fonts.
I first saw it in use in Kansas in 1991.
When Michigan first started doing it, they got it wrong -- reducing the size of the other letters instead of enlarging the first.
For example: https://maps.app.goo.gl/PSra1PJcKLB1BuLF8
Quote from: Bobby5280 on December 12, 2024, 11:04:00 PMThe large capital and small capital treatment in cardinal direction lettering for highway signs has been going on in the US for more than a decade. IIRC, it dates back to the early 2000's. The funny thing is those lettering treatments are worthless work-arounds. It's all fake.
None of the highway fonts currently in use or in use in the past have any kind of properly correct small capitals character sets. It does not exist at all in the limited FHWA Series Gothic character set. Clearview Highway does not have native small capitals at all either. But the Clearview One type family does have small capitals in its character set.
It's possible to gracefully fake small capitals in lettering using a variable font that has a variable weight axis. The weight of the large capital letters can be visually balanced with the weight of the small cap letters. But, alas, there are no highway fonts in variable form. Most industry-specific applications for sign making still do not support variable fonts.
lol
(https://i.imgur.com/a3mA970.png)
Quote from: hbelkins on December 13, 2024, 03:07:54 PMI first saw it in use in Kansas in 1991.
Where in Kansas
The first time i saw those enlarged directions was in 2017 when i went from Montreal to New York City.
These signs in Salt Lake City (https://maps.app.goo.gl/7T8d439zaxG3fAL49) with small-capital directions likely date back to when that stretch of I-215 opened in the late 1980s.
Quote from: Zxct56y on December 12, 2024, 10:34:14 PMIn the USA and in a few places in Canada the North, West, East and South directions have their 1st letter enlarged. I know they started quite recently with this but when they exactly started with this and why they do it.
This is only "recent" if you consider the 80s or earlier as recent.
Guidance to have a larger first letter for a direction, was already in the 1988 edition of the MUTCD.
And here it is as a standard in 2000 (although idk when it became standard) 2D.15 in https://mutcd.fhwa.dot.gov/pdfs/millennium/12.18.00/2D.pdf
See also
https://www.federalregister.gov/documents/2000/12/18/00-31974/national-standards-for-traffic-control-devices-manual-on-uniform-traffic-control-devices-for-streets
"64. In Section 2D.15 Cardinal Direction Auxiliary Sign, the first letter of cardinal direction messages is increased by 10 percent. Increasing the first letter of cardinal direction signs such as EAST and WEST, helps the road user in the navigation task by providing a clearer distinction between the similar appearance of these two messages. This same principle is true for the NORTH and SOUTH cardinal directions. This change was previously adopted in revision number 5 to the 1988 MUTCD and is mentioned here to bring attention to the compliance date which was December 31, 1994. The FHWA received no docket comments on this section."
So, revision number 5 to the 1988 edition, whenever that was.
Quote from: US 89 on December 14, 2024, 06:27:02 PMThese signs in Salt Lake City (https://maps.app.goo.gl/7T8d439zaxG3fAL49) with small-capital directions likely date back to when that stretch of I-215 opened in the late 1980s.
Interesting discovery! So we have enlarged letters since the late 1980s
Despite knowing why they do it
(They do it for 2 reasons the first one is
like a phrase you start with capital letters so having a larger 1st capital letter and smaller capital words would make sense. The 2nd one i think is in my opinion is to make the directions more visible). In Canada some provinces do enlarge the 1st letter of directions in different forms. Quebec is the only one who dosen't do it because of the French Language
Quote from: ran4sh on December 14, 2024, 07:10:52 PMQuote from: Zxct56y on December 12, 2024, 10:34:14 PMIn the USA and in a few places in Canada the North, West, East and South directions have their 1st letter enlarged. I know they started quite recently with this but when they exactly started with this and why they do it.
This is only "recent" if you consider the 80s or earlier as recent.
Guidance to have a larger first letter for a direction, was already in the 1988 edition of the MUTCD.
And here it is as a standard in 2000 (although idk when it became standard) 2D.15 in https://mutcd.fhwa.dot.gov/pdfs/millennium/12.18.00/2D.pdf
I was referring that it wasn't until like 2011-2012 that they started doing that
IDOT still doesn't enlargen the first letter on the assembly signs, aside from some contractor installs. District 1 and downstate both. They do, however, enlargen it on BGS. ISTHA does enlargen it for both uses.
IDOT actually made an odd change to the EAST and WEST plaques within the last few years where the text is now series D instead of the more common and correct series C. I guess someone didn't understand why there was blank space to the sides of the words and just unilaterally changed it...
Old standard: https://maps.app.goo.gl/miFcAvkuVPVxfrZ78
New standard: https://maps.app.goo.gl/geHHTkaVxDNAfsbK6
Quote from: Zxct56y on December 14, 2024, 09:23:53 PMDespite knowing why they do it
(They do it for 2 reasons the first one is
like a phrase you start with capital letters so having a larger 1st capital letter and smaller capital words would make sense. The 2nd one i think is in my opinion is to make the directions more visible). In Canada some provinces do enlarge the 1st letter of directions in different forms. Quebec is the only one who dosen't do it because of the French Language
Why would what language it's in make a difference? No reason you can't have a sign for "A-15
NORD".
Quote from: US 89 on December 15, 2024, 12:56:25 PMQuote from: Zxct56y on December 14, 2024, 09:23:53 PMDespite knowing why they do it
(They do it for 2 reasons the first one is
like a phrase you start with capital letters so having a larger 1st capital letter and smaller capital words would make sense. The 2nd one i think is in my opinion is to make the directions more visible). In Canada some provinces do enlarge the 1st letter of directions in different forms. Quebec is the only one who dosen't do it because of the French Language
Why would what language it's in make a difference? No reason you can't have a sign for "A-15 NORD".
Also curious as to the exact reason, but I'm guessing it's "something something French doesn't capitalize as many things as English does".
Quote from: US 89 on December 15, 2024, 12:56:25 PMQuote from: Zxct56y on December 14, 2024, 09:23:53 PMDespite knowing why they do it
(They do it for 2 reasons the first one is
like a phrase you start with capital letters so having a larger 1st capital letter and smaller capital words would make sense. The 2nd one i think is in my opinion is to make the directions more visible). In Canada some provinces do enlarge the 1st letter of directions in different forms. Quebec is the only one who dosen't do it because of the French Language
Why would what language it's in make a difference? No reason you can't have a sign for "A-15 NORD".
Well the only direction in french that Kind of looks bad is OUEST (WEST in french) while NORD EST and SUD are fine OUEST is the only that dosen't look good with an enlarged 1st letter
And enlarged capitals is not restricted to directions only. This sign in New York has every word except the EXIT tab have enlarged capitals
https://www.alpsroads.net/roads/ny/i-87/n6.jpg
Quote from: Zxct56y on December 15, 2024, 02:45:57 PMAnd enlarged capitals is not restricted to directions only. This sign in New York has every word except the EXIT tab have enlarged capitals
https://www.alpsroads.net/roads/ny/i-87/n6.jpg
That's an error that's since been fixed.
Quote from: Zxct56y on December 15, 2024, 02:45:57 PMAnd enlarged capitals is not restricted to directions only. This sign in New York has every word except the EXIT tab have enlarged capitals
https://www.alpsroads.net/roads/ny/i-87/n6.jpg
That is the classic three-quarters error, which is described in detail in J.N. Winkler's comment to FHWA regarding the MUTCD 11e (https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=23747.msg2892265#msg2892265).
Quote from: vdeane on December 15, 2024, 02:52:35 PMQuote from: Zxct56y on December 15, 2024, 02:45:57 PMAnd enlarged capitals is not restricted to directions only. This sign in New York has every word except the EXIT tab have enlarged capitals
https://www.alpsroads.net/roads/ny/i-87/n6.jpg
That's an error that's since been fixed.
A very long time ago, to boot.
Quote from: Zxct56y on December 14, 2024, 09:08:55 PMQuote from: US 89 on December 14, 2024, 06:27:02 PMThese signs in Salt Lake City (https://maps.app.goo.gl/7T8d439zaxG3fAL49) with small-capital directions likely date back to when that stretch of I-215 opened in the late 1980s.
Interesting discovery! So we have enlarged letters since the late 1980s
That's when it was added to the MUTCD. It could have been practiced elsewhere earlier, but it wasn't a standard.
Quote from: Zxct56y on December 15, 2024, 02:39:42 PMQuote from: US 89 on December 15, 2024, 12:56:25 PMQuote from: Zxct56y on December 14, 2024, 09:23:53 PMDespite knowing why they do it
(They do it for 2 reasons the first one is
like a phrase you start with capital letters so having a larger 1st capital letter and smaller capital words would make sense. The 2nd one i think is in my opinion is to make the directions more visible). In Canada some provinces do enlarge the 1st letter of directions in different forms. Quebec is the only one who dosen't do it because of the French Language
Why would what language it's in make a difference? No reason you can't have a sign for "A-15 NORD".
Well the only direction in french that Kind of looks bad is OUEST (WEST in french) while NORD EST and SUD are fine OUEST is the only that dosen't look good with an enlarged 1st letter
One possible reason is that the words nord/sud and est/ouest are a bit more visually distinct from one another than north/south and east/west, at least in terms of width.
(https://i.imgur.com/Y1SoAXl.png)
Quote from: Zxct56y on December 14, 2024, 01:58:13 PMQuote from: hbelkins on December 13, 2024, 03:07:54 PMI first saw it in use in Kansas in 1991.
Where in Kansas
The first time i saw those enlarged directions was in 2017 when i went from Montreal to New York City.
On I-70. I'm not sure if it was present on the Kansas Turnpike section (KC to Topeka) or west of Topeka, but it was prevalent along the length of I-70.
West Virginia was the second place I saw it commonly in use (late 1990s.)
Quote from: Zxct56y on December 14, 2024, 09:23:53 PMDespite knowing why they do it
(They do it for 2 reasons the first one is
like a phrase you start with capital letters so having a larger 1st capital letter and smaller capital words would make sense. The 2nd one i think is in my opinion is to make the directions more visible). In Canada some provinces do enlarge the 1st letter of directions in different forms. Quebec is the only one who dosen't do it because of the French Language
The 2nd reason is actually the correct reason.
The 1st letter is supposed to be 10%-50% larger than the rest of the word. In my estimation 15%-20% is a typical enlargement, with 10%-25% being normal depending on the state.
My state, NJ, was a little late to the game on many of their signs, but it definitely was common before you took notice to it. In the 1990s most states had converted their signage practices to have a larger first letter.
This standard has nothing to do with Canadian signage.
There's occasional signage errors that should only be treated as errors. Along with the 3/4 issue already mentioned, I've seen TO with the T being larger than the O.
I've noticed some ridiculously oversized shields in MA when I visited, there was a I-195 sign that was almost the size of an overhead with oversized fonts crashing against the borders.
The dopey error of lowercase letters being decreased to 75% of their normal height persists on some signs in Oklahoma. Like this doozy:
https://www.google.com/maps/@34.1571541,-98.5127656,3a,75y,20.27h,93.04t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sMz7LDJ-_dvmEGdy4OGA-RA!2e0!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fcb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile%26w%3D900%26h%3D600%26pitch%3D-3.0423942798685175%26panoid%3DMz7LDJ-_dvmEGdy4OGA-RA%26yaw%3D20.269523925002247!7i16384!8i8192?authuser=0&entry=ttu&g_ep=EgoyMDI0MTIxMS4wIKXMDSoASAFQAw%3D%3D
Quote from: Voyager on December 18, 2024, 02:12:56 PMI've noticed some ridiculously oversized shields in MA when I visited, there was a I-195 sign that was almost the size of an overhead with oversized fonts crashing against the borders.
(https://aaroads.com/shields/img/MA/MA19880951i1.jpg)
(https://aaroads.com/shields/img/MA/MA19881952i1.jpg)
Quote from: Quillz on December 20, 2024, 05:10:29 PMQuote from: Voyager on December 18, 2024, 02:12:56 PMI've noticed some ridiculously oversized shields in MA when I visited, there was a I-195 sign that was almost the size of an overhead with oversized fonts crashing against the borders.
(https://aaroads.com/shields/img/MA/MA19880951i1.jpg)
(https://aaroads.com/shields/img/MA/MA19881952i1.jpg)
Thanks I hate it
Quote from: Quillz on December 20, 2024, 05:10:29 PMQuote from: Voyager on December 18, 2024, 02:12:56 PMI've noticed some ridiculously oversized shields in MA when I visited, there was a I-195 sign that was almost the size of an overhead with oversized fonts crashing against the borders.
(https://aaroads.com/shields/img/MA/MA19880951i1.jpg)
(https://aaroads.com/shields/img/MA/MA19881952i1.jpg)
I have no issues with the 195 sign, but it should have an appropriately signed cardinal direction plaque. Arguably that's more important as one is likely to be on the correct highway, but may not be going the correct direction.
The 95 sign is just stupid.
Those shields are SHOUTING. Damn.
Quote from: Bobby5280 on December 12, 2024, 11:04:00 PMThe large capital and small capital treatment in cardinal direction lettering for highway signs has been going on in the US for more than a decade. IIRC, it dates back to the early 2000's. The funny thing is those lettering treatments are worthless work-arounds. It's all fake.
None of the highway fonts currently in use or in use in the past have any kind of properly correct small capitals character sets.
This is one of the things you've said a number of times that's made me roll my eyes, so I went and made a properly weighted E (the easiest letter) for comparison purposes:
(https://i.imgur.com/njTGmgT.png)
And my observation is that there is a difference, and the unweighted version is not as good, although not to the level of disparagement you typically use to describe it. On the whole, though, aesthetically at least, I don't like either of them and would prefer all of the letters to be the same height.
The practice is unprofessional. Simple as that. I'm far less forgiving of the bullshit practice when it comes to fake small capitals in commercial sign designs. That's because the commercial "sign designers" have far more options. But too many of them are lazy as hell.
Quote from: Quillz on December 20, 2024, 05:10:29 PMQuote from: Voyager on December 18, 2024, 02:12:56 PMI've noticed some ridiculously oversized shields in MA when I visited, there was a I-195 sign that was almost the size of an overhead with oversized fonts crashing against the borders.
(https://aaroads.com/shields/img/MA/MA19880951i1.jpg)
(https://aaroads.com/shields/img/MA/MA19881952i1.jpg)
I kind of like that I-195 sign.
I never did like the large I-95 shields. I remember them being along I-95 in Wakefield, MA. They really only work on the 3dis. I-95 is the only 2di in Massachusetts I've seen them on.
Go big or go home.
Quote from: Rothman on December 23, 2024, 10:20:02 PMGo big or go home.
Do the letters change size if you are headed home? :bigass:
Quote from: CtrlAltDel on December 16, 2024, 01:59:14 AMQuote from: Zxct56y on December 15, 2024, 02:39:42 PMQuote from: US 89 on December 15, 2024, 12:56:25 PMQuote from: Zxct56y on December 14, 2024, 09:23:53 PMDespite knowing why they do it
(They do it for 2 reasons the first one is
like a phrase you start with capital letters so having a larger 1st capital letter and smaller capital words would make sense. The 2nd one i think is in my opinion is to make the directions more visible). In Canada some provinces do enlarge the 1st letter of directions in different forms. Quebec is the only one who dosen't do it because of the French Language
Why would what language it's in make a difference? No reason you can't have a sign for "A-15 NORD".
Well the only direction in french that Kind of looks bad is OUEST (WEST in french) while NORD EST and SUD are fine OUEST is the only that dosen't look good with an enlarged 1st letter
One possible reason is that the words nord/sud and est/ouest are a bit more visually distinct from one another than north/south and east/west, at least in terms of width.
(https://i.imgur.com/Y1SoAXl.png)
It would be better if the 1st letter would be a little bit larger tho
Quote from: Bobby5280 on December 22, 2024, 12:09:12 PMThe practice is unprofessional. Simple as that. I'm far less forgiving of the bullshit practice when it comes to fake small capitals in commercial sign designs. That's because the commercial "sign designers" have far more options. But too many of them are lazy as hell.
How is that "unprofessional?"
Quote from: Bobby5280 on December 22, 2024, 12:09:12 PMThe practice is unprofessional. Simple as that. I'm far less forgiving of the bullshit practice when it comes to fake small capitals in commercial sign designs. That's because the commercial "sign designers" have far more options. But too many of them are lazy as hell.
When the sign lettering is being used as directed, that's the perfect definition of "professional".
Should've fought it during the public comment period for the MUTCD if you think the 30+ year old standard is bad practice.
Quote from: jeffandnicoleWhen the sign lettering is being used as directed, that's the perfect definition of "professional".
You are assuming that. The fact is the agencies are just making due with the primitive fonts they have and that's all. This is just another item to add to the list of other unprofessional looking things commonly done to highway sign designs.
Scaling capital letters to 75% of their normal height (or any other percentage value) is visually inferior to using a typeface that has a native small caps character set. The only way the fakery can look graceful at all is by using a variable font and manually adjusting the weight axis on small cap letters so their letter strokes look balanced with the large cap characters.
At least as far as Chicago is concerned, IDOT has been late to the party, because the old button-copy signs on the expressways hung on until the mid- late-2010s, when they were replaced with newer signs that had the enlarged first letters. Even the 2000s-era Clearview signs that also got replaced did not have them!
Quote from: jeffandnicole on December 18, 2024, 01:19:23 PMMy state, NJ, was a little late to the game on many of their signs, but it definitely was common before you took notice to it. In the 1990s most states had converted their signage practices to have a larger first letter.
New York was late to the game also. I think they started showing up on some signs during the early 00s but widespread use didn't come along until the end of the decade.