MIT spinoff Commonwealth Fusion Systems (https://www.nytimes.com/2024/12/17/climate/commonwealth-fusion-power-plant.html) plans to build a 400 MW reactor near Richmond that will start producing electricity by the early 30s.
This is probably typical start up hype to get more money from investors, but the fact of the matter is that nuclear fusion is getting to reality with many breakthroughs by many organizations all over the world.
Paywall...
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on December 17, 2024, 09:34:57 PMPaywall...
https://www.wric.com/news/local-news/chesterfield-county/fusion-power-plant-chesterfield-announcement/
Will a Miles Davis song be the theme of it?
From the article:
QuoteThis fusion power plant's development hinges on the work being done by CFS on "SPARC," a tokamak machine that demonstrates fusion energy. According to the release, SPARC is expected to produce its first plasma in 2026 and then net fusion energy soon after, "demonstrating for the first time a commercially relevant design that will produce more power than consumed." Once that is done, ARC can become a reality.
OK, we'll see. Sounds like a lotta "if's" to me.
Quote from: GaryV on December 18, 2024, 06:08:59 AMFrom the article:
QuoteThis fusion power plant's development hinges on the work being done by CFS on "SPARC," a tokamak machine that demonstrates fusion energy. According to the release, SPARC is expected to produce its first plasma in 2026 and then net fusion energy soon after, "demonstrating for the first time a commercially relevant design that will produce more power than consumed." Once that is done, ARC can become a reality.
OK, we'll see. Sounds like a lotta "if's" to me.
It's incredibly stupid and seems to be a waste of time and money. This startup claims to have developed an innovative form of fusion that can work at the grid level, but given that there has never been a fusion reaction that truly produces more energy than it consumes, this seems like a pipe dream.
The only fusion reaction that claimed to be a net positive was in 2022, when the U.S. Department of Energy performed a reaction (https://bigthink.com/the-future/fusion-power-nif-hype-lose-energy/) that produced about 3.2 MJ of output from an input of about 2 MJ. The problem is, the lasers needed to start the reaction consumed 322 MJ of energy from the grid. So, in order to produce enough energy to power a dishwasher for one load of dishes, we had to input enough energy to power a whole household for 3 to 4 days. That is a
tremendous waste, and that's a conventional fusion reaction...this startup claims to have some weird innovative version.
So basically, everyone's power bills will skyrocket due to a massive increase in energy consumption. If the "innovative" reactor even works they plan to sell their energy to data centers, and this is being celebrated by crypto enthusiasts because they'd have access to tremendous energy for their crypto mining operations.
Virginia is being swindled and our governor and Chesterfield County are falling for it.
Quote from: Road Hog on December 18, 2024, 01:46:54 AMWill a Miles Davis song be the theme of it?
[ Freddie Freeloader intensifies ]
Quote from: WillWeaverRVA on December 18, 2024, 09:33:56 AMThe only fusion reaction that claimed to be a net positive was in 2022, when the U.S. Department of Energy performed a reaction (https://bigthink.com/the-future/fusion-power-nif-hype-lose-energy/) that produced about 3.2 MJ of output from an input of about 2 MJ. The problem is, the lasers needed to start the reaction consumed 322 MJ of energy from the grid. So, in order to produce enough energy to power a dishwasher for one load of dishes, we had to input enough energy to power a whole household for 3 to 4 days. That is a tremendous waste, and that's a conventional fusion reaction...this startup claims to have some weird innovative version.
The NIF facility was not designed to be an economical source of energy, it was designed to simulate nuclear weapons tests. And getting more energy out than was put in the pellet was still a massive milestone. Until that point, the only way humanity had ever achieved it was using nuclear bombs.
Cold fusion or true desirable efficiency this ain't.
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on December 18, 2024, 11:30:26 AMCold fusion or true desirable efficiency this ain't.
This makes me want to watch The Saint. Elizabeth Shue back in the day...
Quote from: JayhawkCO on December 18, 2024, 11:35:08 AMQuote from: Max Rockatansky on December 18, 2024, 11:30:26 AMCold fusion or true desirable efficiency this ain't.
This makes me want to watch The Saint. Elizabeth Shue back in the day...
She belongs in the Underrated thread. The only reason I remember that movie is because she is in it.
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on December 18, 2024, 12:48:21 PMQuote from: JayhawkCO on December 18, 2024, 11:35:08 AMQuote from: Max Rockatansky on December 18, 2024, 11:30:26 AMCold fusion or true desirable efficiency this ain't.
This makes me want to watch The Saint. Elizabeth Shue back in the day...
She belongs in the Underrated thread. The only reason I remember that movie is because she is in it.
She did win an Oscar...
will it be able to power the 150 mph cars?
The one thing I've been confused about is this company's SPARC and ARC reactors use deuterium-tritium fuel.
I just feel that acquiring both, especially tritium, in concentrations to sustain constant fusion reactions is the biggest hole in the plan here. Even deuterium is something like 1 in 5000 atoms, which granted is a lot (10^20 atoms per gram of hydrogen) but that's a lot of waste non-neutron carrying hydrogen to weed out. The fusion process does make some tritium on its own to boost it, but deuterium isn't created by anything so it's finite resource. Maybe finite to a long timescale, but is finite.
Maybe, especially since I am not a nuclear physicist, I am missing something here, but it seems that the experts are light on details while pulling in billions in taxpayer funds for it all.
However, if this works as planned and is scaled up over the years, it will be one of the biggest achievements in human history.
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on December 18, 2024, 01:00:51 PMwill it be able to power the 150 mph cars?
Not directly, but yes, it could provide energy to charge electric vehicles.
It could do much more beside. Some applications of an extremely low cost source of energy:
-Desalination of seawater
-Indoor farming
-Melting rock for earth removal
-Weather modification by pumping cool ocean water from the depth to the surface
Quote from: Rothman on December 18, 2024, 12:55:41 PMQuote from: Max Rockatansky on December 18, 2024, 12:48:21 PMQuote from: JayhawkCO on December 18, 2024, 11:35:08 AMQuote from: Max Rockatansky on December 18, 2024, 11:30:26 AMCold fusion or true desirable efficiency this ain't.
This makes me want to watch The Saint. Elizabeth Shue back in the day...
She belongs in the Underrated thread. The only reason I remember that movie is because she is in it.
She did win an Oscar...
Pretty sure that's not what either of us we're getting at...
Quote from: kernals12 on December 18, 2024, 01:48:35 PMQuote from: Roadgeekteen on December 18, 2024, 01:00:51 PMwill it be able to power the 150 mph cars?
Not directly, but yes, it could provide energy to charge electric vehicles.
It could do much more beside. Some applications of an extremely low cost source of energy:
-Desalination of seawater
-Indoor farming
-Melting rock for earth removal
-Weather modification by pumping cool ocean water from the depth to the surface
I can't believe you not only attempted to seriously answer that question, but you also included something that would absolutely devastate the global climate even more than it already is in the process (the pumping cool subsurface ocean water part).
Quote from: WillWeaverRVA on December 18, 2024, 02:57:37 PMQuote from: kernals12 on December 18, 2024, 01:48:35 PMQuote from: Roadgeekteen on December 18, 2024, 01:00:51 PMwill it be able to power the 150 mph cars?
Not directly, but yes, it could provide energy to charge electric vehicles.
It could do much more beside. Some applications of an extremely low cost source of energy:
-Desalination of seawater
-Indoor farming
-Melting rock for earth removal
-Weather modification by pumping cool ocean water from the depth to the surface
I can't believe you not only attempted to seriously answer that question, but you also included something that would absolutely devastate the global climate even more than it already is in the process (the pumping cool subsurface ocean water part).
He's already a pro-global warning advocate. Might be a strange stance, but at least it is consistent.
Quote from: WillWeaverRVA on December 18, 2024, 02:57:37 PMQuote from: kernals12 on December 18, 2024, 01:48:35 PMQuote from: Roadgeekteen on December 18, 2024, 01:00:51 PMwill it be able to power the 150 mph cars?
Not directly, but yes, it could provide energy to charge electric vehicles.
It could do much more beside. Some applications of an extremely low cost source of energy:
-Desalination of seawater
-Indoor farming
-Melting rock for earth removal
-Weather modification by pumping cool ocean water from the depth to the surface
I can't believe you not only attempted to seriously answer that question, but you also included something that would absolutely devastate the global climate even more than it already is in the process (the pumping cool subsurface ocean water part).
"devastate" or "improve"?
Quote from: kernals12 on December 18, 2024, 03:25:57 PMQuote from: WillWeaverRVA on December 18, 2024, 02:57:37 PMQuote from: kernals12 on December 18, 2024, 01:48:35 PMQuote from: Roadgeekteen on December 18, 2024, 01:00:51 PMwill it be able to power the 150 mph cars?
Not directly, but yes, it could provide energy to charge electric vehicles.
It could do much more beside. Some applications of an extremely low cost source of energy:
-Desalination of seawater
-Indoor farming
-Melting rock for earth removal
-Weather modification by pumping cool ocean water from the depth to the surface
I can't believe you not only attempted to seriously answer that question, but you also included something that would absolutely devastate the global climate even more than it already is in the process (the pumping cool subsurface ocean water part).
"devastate" or "improve"?
Considering that subsurface upwelling and glacial melting would contribute to the weakening of the Gulf Stream, which would have devastating impacts on the North American and European climates by reducing precipitation in the northeastern US and Canada, increased sea levels along the coast, and more extreme summers, I think it's obvious.
Quote from: WillWeaverRVA on December 18, 2024, 04:14:05 PMQuote from: kernals12 on December 18, 2024, 03:25:57 PMQuote from: WillWeaverRVA on December 18, 2024, 02:57:37 PMQuote from: kernals12 on December 18, 2024, 01:48:35 PMQuote from: Roadgeekteen on December 18, 2024, 01:00:51 PMwill it be able to power the 150 mph cars?
Not directly, but yes, it could provide energy to charge electric vehicles.
It could do much more beside. Some applications of an extremely low cost source of energy:
-Desalination of seawater
-Indoor farming
-Melting rock for earth removal
-Weather modification by pumping cool ocean water from the depth to the surface
I can't believe you not only attempted to seriously answer that question, but you also included something that would absolutely devastate the global climate even more than it already is in the process (the pumping cool subsurface ocean water part).
"devastate" or "improve"?
Considering that subsurface upwelling and glacial melting would contribute to the weakening of the Gulf Stream, which would have devastating impacts on the North American and European climates by reducing precipitation in the northeastern US and Canada, increased sea levels along the coast, and more extreme summers, I think it's obvious.
Quote from: formulanone on December 18, 2024, 11:06:35 AMQuote from: Road Hog on December 18, 2024, 01:46:54 AMWill a Miles Davis song be the theme of it?
[ Freddie Freeloader intensifies ]
Ok, Pharaoh's Dance.
Quote from: WillWeaverRVA on December 18, 2024, 04:14:05 PMQuote from: kernals12 on December 18, 2024, 03:25:57 PMQuote from: WillWeaverRVA on December 18, 2024, 02:57:37 PMQuote from: kernals12 on December 18, 2024, 01:48:35 PMQuote from: Roadgeekteen on December 18, 2024, 01:00:51 PMwill it be able to power the 150 mph cars?
Not directly, but yes, it could provide energy to charge electric vehicles.
It could do much more beside. Some applications of an extremely low cost source of energy:
-Desalination of seawater
-Indoor farming
-Melting rock for earth removal
-Weather modification by pumping cool ocean water from the depth to the surface
I can't believe you not only attempted to seriously answer that question, but you also included something that would absolutely devastate the global climate even more than it already is in the process (the pumping cool subsurface ocean water part).
"devastate" or "improve"?
Considering that subsurface upwelling and glacial melting would contribute to the weakening of the Gulf Stream, which would have devastating impacts on the North American and European climates by reducing precipitation in the northeastern US and Canada, increased sea levels along the coast, and more extreme summers, I think it's obvious.
The earth's thermohaline circulation system works by upwelling and downwelling water at different places. If upwelling increases in one place, then by simple arithmetic, downwelling has to increase somewhere else. The net effect would be a *strengthening* of ocean currents. Bringing cooler waters to the surface would also *moderate* summer temperatures. Finally, the creation of new high pressure areas at sea would send more moist sea air onto land, increasing precipitation.
Quote from: kernals12 on December 18, 2024, 03:25:57 PMQuote from: WillWeaverRVA on December 18, 2024, 02:57:37 PMQuote from: kernals12 on December 18, 2024, 01:48:35 PMQuote from: Roadgeekteen on December 18, 2024, 01:00:51 PMwill it be able to power the 150 mph cars?
Not directly, but yes, it could provide energy to charge electric vehicles.
It could do much more beside. Some applications of an extremely low cost source of energy:
-Desalination of seawater
-Indoor farming
-Melting rock for earth removal
-Weather modification by pumping cool ocean water from the depth to the surface
I can't believe you not only attempted to seriously answer that question, but you also included something that would absolutely devastate the global climate even more than it already is in the process (the pumping cool subsurface ocean water part).
"devastate" or "improve"?
Cool ocean water on the surface means less water evaporates, meaning less rain falls, worsening the drought which that river you depend on has been experiencing for the last 20 years.
Quote from: Scott5114 on December 18, 2024, 05:11:16 PMQuote from: kernals12 on December 18, 2024, 03:25:57 PMQuote from: WillWeaverRVA on December 18, 2024, 02:57:37 PMQuote from: kernals12 on December 18, 2024, 01:48:35 PMQuote from: Roadgeekteen on December 18, 2024, 01:00:51 PMwill it be able to power the 150 mph cars?
Not directly, but yes, it could provide energy to charge electric vehicles.
It could do much more beside. Some applications of an extremely low cost source of energy:
-Desalination of seawater
-Indoor farming
-Melting rock for earth removal
-Weather modification by pumping cool ocean water from the depth to the surface
I can't believe you not only attempted to seriously answer that question, but you also included something that would absolutely devastate the global climate even more than it already is in the process (the pumping cool subsurface ocean water part).
"devastate" or "improve"?
Cool ocean water on the surface means less water evaporates, meaning less rain falls, worsening the drought which that river you depend on has been experiencing for the last 20 years.
This study says otherwise (https://agupubs.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1029/2021GL093129). Rainfall over the sea is reduced but over land it increases.
What grade do you think Kernals got in science class in high school?
Another thing we learned today about Kernals, apparently he watched Snowpiercer and thought "hey, that's a good idea!"
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on December 18, 2024, 05:19:38 PMWhat grade do you think Kernals got in science class in high school?
I don't have my high school grades on hand but I got a B+ on GSCI 1050 at UCONN.
Quote from: SectorZ on December 18, 2024, 01:29:27 PMThe one thing I've been confused about is this company's SPARC and ARC reactors use deuterium-tritium fuel.
I just feel that acquiring both, especially tritium, in concentrations to sustain constant fusion reactions is the biggest hole in the plan here. Even deuterium is something like 1 in 5000 atoms, which granted is a lot (10^20 atoms per gram of hydrogen) but that's a lot of waste non-neutron carrying hydrogen to weed out. The fusion process does make some tritium on its own to boost it, but deuterium isn't created by anything so it's finite resource. Maybe finite to a long timescale, but is finite.
Maybe, especially since I am not a nuclear physicist, I am missing something here, but it seems that the experts are light on details while pulling in billions in taxpayer funds for it all.
However, if this works as planned and is scaled up over the years, it will be one of the biggest achievements in human history.
heavy water is sold by the ton. Tritium is a more interesting one, but primarily for weapon control reasons.
Anyway, fuel for these reactors is a well known business.
other interesting applications of fusion power
1) A massively overpowered garbage incinerator that would turn man's most toxic effluents into inert and useful materials in a matter of seconds
2) Air and spacecraft that would have far more usable payload without the weight of fuel.
Quote from: kernals12 on December 28, 2024, 12:23:12 PMother interesting applications of fusion power
1) A massively overpowered garbage incinerator that would turn man's most toxic effluents into inert and useful materials in a matter of seconds
2) Air and spacecraft that would have far more usable payload without the weight of fuel.
Ok, so dynamics of spaceflight is yet another area you don't know
Quote from: kalvado on December 28, 2024, 01:37:22 PMQuote from: kernals12 on December 28, 2024, 12:23:12 PMother interesting applications of fusion power
1) A massively overpowered garbage incinerator that would turn man's most toxic effluents into inert and useful materials in a matter of seconds
2) Air and spacecraft that would have far more usable payload without the weight of fuel.
Ok, so dynamics of spaceflight is yet another area you don't know
I guess this is going to be one of those times I bring something up, someone calls me an idiot, I cite a source (https://www.nasa.gov/general/the-fusion-driven-rocket-nuclear-propulsion-through-direct-conversion-of-fusion-energy/), and then that person just ignores it.
Quote from: kernals12 on December 28, 2024, 01:59:30 PMQuote from: kalvado on December 28, 2024, 01:37:22 PMQuote from: kernals12 on December 28, 2024, 12:23:12 PMother interesting applications of fusion power
1) A massively overpowered garbage incinerator that would turn man's most toxic effluents into inert and useful materials in a matter of seconds
2) Air and spacecraft that would have far more usable payload without the weight of fuel.
Ok, so dynamics of spaceflight is yet another area you don't know
I guess this is going to be one of those times I bring something up, someone calls me an idiot, I cite a source (https://www.nasa.gov/general/the-fusion-driven-rocket-nuclear-propulsion-through-direct-conversion-of-fusion-energy/), and then that person just ignores it.
Two things here. NASA is still playing with concerts from 1950s, but that's ok. but you are unable to understand even those. 3000s Isp would be great for flight to orbit, but up there is pretty modest. Xenon is doing it better.
Speaking 'fusion" what is the thoughts in the crowd about Metroid Fusion? I thought that was a top five game in the Gameboy Advance library.
Quote from: kalvado on December 28, 2024, 02:36:44 PMQuote from: kernals12 on December 28, 2024, 01:59:30 PMQuote from: kalvado on December 28, 2024, 01:37:22 PMQuote from: kernals12 on December 28, 2024, 12:23:12 PMother interesting applications of fusion power
1) A massively overpowered garbage incinerator that would turn man's most toxic effluents into inert and useful materials in a matter of seconds
2) Air and spacecraft that would have far more usable payload without the weight of fuel.
Ok, so dynamics of spaceflight is yet another area you don't know
I guess this is going to be one of those times I bring something up, someone calls me an idiot, I cite a source (https://www.nasa.gov/general/the-fusion-driven-rocket-nuclear-propulsion-through-direct-conversion-of-fusion-energy/), and then that person just ignores it.
Two things here. NASA is still playing with concerts from 1950s, but that's ok. but you are unable to understand even those. 3000s Isp would be great for flight to orbit, but up there is pretty modest. Xenon is doing it better.
Are you actually downplaying the impact of a 6 fold reduction in propellant needed to reach orbit?
Quote from: kernals12 on December 28, 2024, 03:33:55 PMQuote from: kalvado on December 28, 2024, 02:36:44 PMQuote from: kernals12 on December 28, 2024, 01:59:30 PMQuote from: kalvado on December 28, 2024, 01:37:22 PMQuote from: kernals12 on December 28, 2024, 12:23:12 PMother interesting applications of fusion power
1) A massively overpowered garbage incinerator that would turn man's most toxic effluents into inert and useful materials in a matter of seconds
2) Air and spacecraft that would have far more usable payload without the weight of fuel.
Ok, so dynamics of spaceflight is yet another area you don't know
I guess this is going to be one of those times I bring something up, someone calls me an idiot, I cite a source (https://www.nasa.gov/general/the-fusion-driven-rocket-nuclear-propulsion-through-direct-conversion-of-fusion-energy/), and then that person just ignores it.
Two things here. NASA is still playing with concerts from 1950s, but that's ok. but you are unable to understand even those. 3000s Isp would be great for flight to orbit, but up there is pretty modest. Xenon is doing it better.
Are you actually downplaying the impact of a 6 fold reduction in propellant needed to reach orbit?
If - and that an extremely huge if - such engine can be suitable for high thrust atmospheric operation withsome safety considerations - it would be a huge deal.
I didn't see much beyond conceptual sketches. This is on exact same page - "the first wall is not a problem!" Ok, boy, great job. Now run back to your mommy.
This will please Max to no end. One of the reasons for the recent spurt of progress in fusion is AI (https://www.cnn.com/2024/02/21/climate/nuclear-fusion-ai-climate-solution/index.html) that is proving useful in preventing the extremely hot plasma from escaping the magnetic field.
I prefer my fusion reactions to be done the analog way thank you very much. Save that AI for the 150 MPH cars where it belongs.
Quote from: kernals12 on December 28, 2024, 07:25:53 PMThis will please Max to no end. One of the reasons for the recent spurt of progress in fusion is AI (https://www.cnn.com/2024/02/21/climate/nuclear-fusion-ai-climate-solution/index.html) that is proving useful in preventing the extremely hot plasma from escaping the magnetic field.
QuoteScientists say they can use AI
Wake us when they actually do it. Scientists says they can do lots of things until they can't. The only thing AI is achieving right now is a new way to make shitty memes and creating a new massive carbon footprint that people with no carbon footprint will be rendered responsible to fix by increasingly moronic governments.
Fusion? AI? Sounds like a job for Spider Man...
Quote from: SectorZ on December 28, 2024, 08:40:21 PMQuote from: kernals12 on December 28, 2024, 07:25:53 PMThis will please Max to no end. One of the reasons for the recent spurt of progress in fusion is AI (https://www.cnn.com/2024/02/21/climate/nuclear-fusion-ai-climate-solution/index.html) that is proving useful in preventing the extremely hot plasma from escaping the magnetic field.
QuoteScientists say they can use AI
Wake us when they actually do it. Scientists says they can do lots of things until they can't. The only thing AI is achieving right now is a new way to make shitty memes and creating a new massive carbon footprint that people with no carbon footprint will be rendered responsible to fix by increasingly moronic governments.
Frankly speaking, a lot of this "scientists say" is actually "journalist didn't understand a damn thing, but has a deadline"
Fun thing about AI data centers, though, is that they are straining existing power grid big time. Next big blackout would be on chatgpt.
Quote from: vdeane on December 28, 2024, 08:48:47 PMFusion? AI? Sounds like a job for Spider Man...
I prefer the roles reversed version of Spider Man 2. The last second dig at Mary Jane Watson is the chef's kiss.
I mentioned fusion powered aircraft and yet nobody has bothered to bring this up. Shameful
(https://i.imgur.com/P1q1u0E.jpeg)
Probably because the amount of people who actually care on a road forum is limited.
Quote from: kernals12 on December 29, 2024, 12:27:31 AMI mentioned fusion powered aircraft and yet nobody has bothered to bring this up. Shameful
(https://i.imgur.com/P1q1u0E.jpeg)
(https://media1.tenor.com/m/khJthyXJxtcAAAAd/ken-jeong-community.gif)
Quote from: kernals12 on December 29, 2024, 12:27:31 AMI mentioned fusion powered aircraft and yet nobody has bothered to bring this up. Shameful
(https://i.imgur.com/P1q1u0E.jpeg)
And when is that from?
Quote from: kkt on December 29, 2024, 04:41:48 PMQuote from: kernals12 on December 29, 2024, 12:27:31 AMI mentioned fusion powered aircraft and yet nobody has bothered to bring this up. Shameful
(https://i.imgur.com/P1q1u0E.jpeg)
And when is that from?
2060s
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thunderbirds_(TV_series)
Quote from: kalvado on December 29, 2024, 05:53:38 PMQuote from: kkt on December 29, 2024, 04:41:48 PMQuote from: kernals12 on December 29, 2024, 12:27:31 AMI mentioned fusion powered aircraft and yet nobody has bothered to bring this up. Shameful
(https://i.imgur.com/P1q1u0E.jpeg)
And when is that from?
2060s
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thunderbirds_(TV_series)
Weirdly, for a show set that far in the future, there were few robots or computers
Quote from: kalvado on December 29, 2024, 05:53:38 PMQuote from: kkt on December 29, 2024, 04:41:48 PMQuote from: kernals12 on December 29, 2024, 12:27:31 AMI mentioned fusion powered aircraft and yet nobody has bothered to bring this up. Shameful
(https://i.imgur.com/P1q1u0E.jpeg)
And when is that from?
2060s
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thunderbirds_(TV_series)
Okay, I was really wondering when the vehicle was designed real world, not when it was supposed to be set. But it was on the wikipedia page. Mid 1960s.