AARoads Forum

I had a fascinating experience with a local barber shop recently that prompts me to ask: what are your thoughts on service cancellation policies for when you need to cancel, change or reschedule any kind of service appointment at the last minute?

I'll share my story later once it's finished playing out, but I wanted to put this out there so others can share their thoughts and experiences. Thanks in advance!

(Edited 03/06/2025 to change subject title)

Quote from: webny99 on December 27, 2024, 10:31:11 PMI had a fascinating experience with a local barber shop recently that prompts me to ask: what are your thoughts on service cancellation policies writ large? And what is the ideal policy for service oriented cancellations, if there is such a thing?

I'll share my story later once it's finished playing out, but I wanted to put this out there so others can share their thoughts and experiences. Thanks in advance!

I have no idea what you're getting at, including what kind of "service cancellation policies" are at issue. Maybe supply more context, without waiting for the story to play out?

Quote from: oscar on December 27, 2024, 10:48:09 PMI have no idea what you're getting at, including what kind of "service cancellation policies" are at issue. Maybe supply more context, without waiting for the story to play out?

Sorry for the lack of clarity. I'm referring to when you have to change or cancel any kind of service appointment (personal, home, property or otherwise) at the last minute, and specifically whether you should have to pay for the service if you didn't recieve it. I updated the OP for clarity too.

I take it your barber doesn't like last-minute cancellations?

Quote from: Rothman on December 27, 2024, 11:03:49 PMI take it your barber doesn't like last-minute cancellations?

Fair assumption.

Quote from: webny99 on December 27, 2024, 11:10:35 PM

Quote from: Rothman on December 27, 2024, 11:03:49 PMI take it your barber doesn't like last-minute cancellations?

Fair assumption.

That's typically the case in the cosmetology/hairdressing/barber world.

I guess I don't know what they can really do to you other than say you're not welcome back until you pay the demanded fee. They probably don't have your card on file or a contractual agreement to charge you for inconvenience, like for example hotels have both of these things lined up to charge you if you cancel late or no-show.

About a week ago, I had to cancel work plans for travel to north-central New Jersey for the first Monday in January. This is common enough for my job that approximately every third or fourth project changes, for some reason. The hotel I booked had a twenty-one day cancellation notice, or would charge the first night's room rate as a penalty, even if not pre-paid. Admittedly, I've become complacent and not double-checked that their policy had increased tenfold compared to everywhere else I've booked over the last 15 years. 

The usual hotels charge that one-night rate as a cancellation usually within 24-48 hours; it used to reliably be "if before 6pm of that first night" before COVID, with some exceptions for special events or those who pre-paid their hotel stay for a lower rate. This 21-day nonsense surprised the heck out of me because it was a Hampton Inn and not in a particularly small nor large city. (I won't shame them because they dropped the fee/charge due to my hotel loyalty status, but only after an extra phone call.)

Typically, the airline ticket goes back to a "specific-airline-usable credit", if booked more than 24 hours prior, and if not a fully-refundable fare.* My rental car is usually outright cancelled without charge, about two hours before rental. I've only been charged a no-show fee once, but it was also overturned when I had rented elsewhere in the country, but many hours later that same day.

I figured I'd bring that up here since this will probably not be the last of this kind of situation which happens, unless the hotels become more weary of overturning their own policies and processes before the public does...

* There's a number of different fares airlines have at most times; Basic Economy (pay less, but without refund...not done in my line of work, for reasons explained above), Economy/Coach, Premium Fares (extra legroom), and First/Business. For everything besides Basic, there's usually a Fully Refundable Fare class-within-a-class that determines whether you get your money back without question, or an airline credit/voucher. Most people don't spend the extra money on a fully-refundable fare, unless they're forced to do so (for example, the last few seats/tickets on an aircraft are sometimes sold as "fully-refundable fares", because the aircraft is either oversold or figures you have to be somewhat serious about paying too much for that flight), or constantly have very flexible or immediately-changing travel plans. This only scratches the surface and there's always exceptions and can't cover every instance and possibility (there's a whole, more-knowledgeable space on the Internet for that).

Totally non-refundable pre-paid hotel reaervations are quite common.  "We'll give you a discount if you pay up front...but no show?  We keep the money."

I've never dealt with a cancellation policy at a barbershop, but then I've also never had to make an appointment for a haircut except in summer 2020 during the first two or three months of reopening following the COVID shutdowns.

Hotel cancellation policies are routine and I always check those very carefully before I book somewhere. The policy Rothman notes is, as he says, quite common—if you're absolutely certain you'll make the trip, you might be able to save some money, but for things like business travel I never take that risk (no reason to do so if I'm getting reimbursed for it anyway).

My dentist has a policy that you have to cancel 48 hours in advance or you may be charged a fee if they cannot fill the slot (hence why it's 48 hours instead of 24—gives them more time to fill the slot). That sort of thing is quite common. The other prong of their policy is that if you have more than one last-minute cancellation, you may be asked to find a different dentist. I don't know how common that sort of thing is (and I assume there is likely some level of flexibility depending on the reason why you cancel).

For things like a plumber or an electrician I tend to pay less attention because if I call them, there is a minimal chance I'd cancel the appointment.

As a general matter, I don't have a strong objection to these sorts of policies as long as they're clearly communicated when you make the appointment or reservation. As my dentist's policy makes clear, they've held that slot for you. They rely on appointments to make money, and if you have to cancel at the last second, they don't make any money on that slot if they can't fill it.

I think the problem is that a lot of people just don't show up, and there is an expense to that. You are open and paying employees, but had to forego revenue because someone either doesn't show or cancels late.

My experience is that, if you are a good customer and call, apologize and explain the problem, they often give you the benefit of the doubt and will allow you to reschedule.

Charge them if they're a no-call no-show, otherwise forgive them.

Quote from: epzik8 on December 28, 2024, 10:23:38 AMCharge them if they're a no-call no-show, otherwise forgive them.

If a client doesn't show up, it still means there are costs for providers which are normally covered by client charge. Hourly staff payroll, rent, utilities. Provider may take an unpaid break - but is that what they plan for?

As far as I understand, appointment discipline went down after covid; and a secondary market for some reservations - NYC restaurants, for example - emerged. It messes things up ..

https://ny.eater.com/2024/12/18/24324546/restaurant-reservation-black-market-illegal-passing-hochul
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/reservations-top-new-york-city-restaurants-are-selling-hundreds-dollar-rcna151702

Quote from: SEWIGuy on December 28, 2024, 09:37:46 AM...

My experience is that, if you are a good customer and call, apologize and explain the problem, they often give you the benefit of the doubt and will allow you to reschedule.

To some extent this goes along with my comment about the reason for cancelling. I once had to cancel at the last minute with my former dentist (he's now retired) due to an unexpected sudden business trip to Pittsburgh on 24 hours' notice. He didn't charge me and said that I'd been a longtime patient and it was circumstances beyond my control.

Quote from: TheHighwayMan3561 on December 28, 2024, 12:18:00 AMI guess I don't know what they can really do to you other than say you're not welcome back until you pay the demanded fee. They probably don't have your card on file or a contractual agreement to charge you for inconvenience, like for example hotels have both of these things lined up to charge you if you cancel late or no-show.

In my case, they actually did because I used an online booking service and I guess I put my card info in the first time I booked. It was so long ago that I had forgotten, since I had used the same site a number of times since without having to enter a card.

Quote from: Rothman on December 28, 2024, 07:16:38 AMTotally non-refundable pre-paid hotel reaervations are quite common.  "We'll give you a discount if you pay up front...but no show?  We keep the money."

I used to take advantage of these quite often.  I've stopped since getting married since my wife gets weird about bailing trips if the weather turns bad.  Usually I just now opt for the higher hotel price that offers cancellation.

Quote from: kalvado on December 28, 2024, 10:38:48 AM

Quote from: epzik8 on December 28, 2024, 10:23:38 AMCharge them if they're a no-call no-show, otherwise forgive them.

If a client doesn't show up, it still means there are costs for providers which are normally covered by client charge. Hourly staff payroll, rent, utilities. Provider may take an unpaid break - but is that what they plan for?

As far as I understand, appointment discipline went down after covid; and a secondary market for some reservations - NYC restaurants, for example - emerged. It messes things up ..

https://ny.eater.com/2024/12/18/24324546/restaurant-reservation-black-market-illegal-passing-hochul
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/reservations-top-new-york-city-restaurants-are-selling-hundreds-dollar-rcna151702

The fact that NY has to save people from themselves spending thousands of alleged dollars on black-market dining reservations is really a first world problem I refuse to get upset about.

Quote from: SectorZ on December 28, 2024, 08:42:47 PM

Quote from: kalvado on December 28, 2024, 10:38:48 AM

Quote from: epzik8 on December 28, 2024, 10:23:38 AMCharge them if they're a no-call no-show, otherwise forgive them.

If a client doesn't show up, it still means there are costs for providers which are normally covered by client charge. Hourly staff payroll, rent, utilities. Provider may take an unpaid break - but is that what they plan for?

As far as I understand, appointment discipline went down after covid; and a secondary market for some reservations - NYC restaurants, for example - emerged. It messes things up ..

https://ny.eater.com/2024/12/18/24324546/restaurant-reservation-black-market-illegal-passing-hochul
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/reservations-top-new-york-city-restaurants-are-selling-hundreds-dollar-rcna151702

The fact that NY has to save people from themselves spending thousands of alleged dollars on black-market dining reservations is really a first world problem I refuse to get upset about.

I am totally not upset, but the fact that it escalated as far as state law can tell you about things getting crazy

Quote from: Max Rockatansky on December 28, 2024, 03:21:08 PM

Quote from: Rothman on December 28, 2024, 07:16:38 AMTotally non-refundable pre-paid hotel reaervations are quite common.  "We'll give you a discount if you pay up front...but no show?  We keep the money."

I used to take advantage of these quite often.  I've stopped since getting married since my wife gets weird about bailing trips if the weather turns bad.  Usually I just now opt for the higher hotel price that offers cancellation.

When the practice first started with hotels, the difference was so minimal ($2 or $3) that it really didn't make sense to take the prepaid rate. There can be a slightly larger difference now, but often it's still relatively minimal compared to the loss of the prepayment if the trip doesn't occur.

Quote from: webny99 on December 27, 2024, 10:31:11 PMI had a fascinating experience with a local barber shop recently that prompts me to ask: what are your thoughts on service cancellation policies for when you need to cancel, change or reschedule any kind of service appointment at the last minute?

I'll share my story later once it's finished playing out, but I wanted to put this out there so others can share their thoughts and experiences. Thanks in advance!

When an appointment is cancelled at the last minute, that's a loss of pay to the employee. Imagine if your job told you they're not going to pay you for 30-60 minutes. Oh, and you can't leave.

Sometimes changes are unavoidable. If they do refund you the no-show charge, tip your barber extra next time.

My wife used to have a specialist doctor in Oklahoma City who she saw every few months. We lived in Norman and had basically no reason to be in that part of OKC other than to see that doctor. So there were a few times where we were a few minutes late getting to an appointment because we didn't know the traffic in the area well enough to know when we needed to leave extra time to get there. Shouldn't have been a big deal, since they were one of those offices where you get to sit in the waiting room for 30 minutes to an hour before they call you back anyway. But the office staff got snotty about it. (The actual doctor didn't really seem to care much.)

Anyway we got tired of the snide remarks and quit going to that doctor altogether. I guess that solved whatever problem we were causing them.

Quote from: webny99 on December 27, 2024, 10:31:11 PMI'll share my story later once it's finished playing out

Alright, here goes. I started off on the wrong foot by not booking my haircut far enough in advance of the holiday season, so I had to settle for a Friday afternoon appointment that required me to leave work early. Predictably, I ran late, and while I was on my way they called to ask if I was coming and I said yes, but they soured after finding I'd be close to 15 minutes late.

I offered to rebook, but they were swamped so I couldn't rebook with my usual barber until next week, so I very reluctantly accepted the no show fee (full price) and a rebooking for Saturday afternoon with another barber.

I then called their other location to see about an earlier time slot. They had a Saturday morning appointment that I preferred, so I took it.

Since I typically pay cash, I honestly didn't think they had my card on file to charge, but I checked an hour later and sure enough they'd already charged it. I was pretty annoyed by paying almost $30 for nothing (partly my own fault, I'm aware) so I dumped a one star review on Google and figured I'd see if anything came of it.

Within an hour their number called again and I was busy, so I called back later when I got a good chance, still mildly annoyed but optimistic.

The guy I spoke to earlier (who turned out to be the owner) was pretty worked up and confused about why I left one star but then rebooked at their other location, and told me that I wasn't welcome for my appointment in the morning because of the review. I didn't have much to say except I wasn't happy about paying for a haircut and getting nothing, but he was set on me either accepting the charge (and removing the review) or canceling my rebooked appointment.

And, he'd only credit my card if I wasn't returning. Crediting my card and continuing to do business together wasn't an option.

Well, none of those options appealed to me, but neither did finding a new barber and I needed the haircut ASAP, so I stalled for time for a bit, let him do a bit more talking, and eventually after close to 20 minutes on the phone, I agreed to keep the keep the appointment, and removed my review.

So I got my hair cut without incident yesterday but concluded that the vibes are now so weird that I'm going to find a new barber anyways. The deciding factor was that the owner *told* my barber that I left a one star review, so now that's going to be hanging over our relationship and he's a really good guy and I can't face the awkwardness of that for either of us.

And since the owner cared so much about the review, I also left a new *three* star review stating that they were tripping over dollars to pick up pennies and that they valued my review more than my business, so they could have what they valued most, but that I did have a good experience with both of the barbers that had cut my hair. So there you have it.

Quote from: jeffandnicole on December 28, 2024, 10:59:48 PMWhen an appointment is cancelled at the last minute, that's a loss of pay to the employee. Imagine if your job told you they're not going to pay you for 30-60 minutes. Oh, and you can't leave.

My response to that is: Why?

As far as I know, there's no legal requirement or mandate they employees can't get paid if they're not actively working, so it doesn't *have* to be that way. What about slow days, or appointments that go quicker than expected? It's not like the appointment revenue is going direct to the employee's paycheck - they're two separate things and it's ultimately up to the owners/managers of the company to decide how those situations will be handled.

Seems the moral of the story is not to be late.

Quote from: Rothman on December 29, 2024, 03:38:57 PMSeems the moral of the story is not to be late.

Exactly. If he is on-time none of this is an issue. And then getting mad, and posting a bad review, because they enforced a no-show policy that he agreed to seems to be a bit much.

Just be on time.

I dunno, I think if a barber was that up their own ass about the schedule I'd find a new barber anyway. I generally have a policy of not spending money with people that stress me out if I have other options. And there's plenty of people that cut hair.

Quote from: Scott5114 on December 29, 2024, 03:58:21 PMI dunno, I think if a barber was that up their own ass about the schedule I'd find a new barber anyway. I generally have a policy of not spending money with people that stress me out if I have other options. And there's plenty of people that cut hair.

Sure.  Just go to a barber that takes walk-ins.  No problem with that.  But make appointments that you aren't sure you can be on time for?  Not a good practice.

Quote from: Rothman on December 29, 2024, 03:38:57 PMSeems the moral of the story is not to be late.

There is always a non-zero chance of things not adding up.

Quote from: kalvado on December 29, 2024, 04:12:26 PM

Quote from: Rothman on December 29, 2024, 03:38:57 PMSeems the moral of the story is not to be late.

There is always a non-zero chance of things not adding up.

Sure, and if it was a real emergency, that's one thing.  Losing track of time at work?  Not so much.

Quote from: Rothman on December 29, 2024, 04:11:35 PM

Quote from: Scott5114 on December 29, 2024, 03:58:21 PMI dunno, I think if a barber was that up their own ass about the schedule I'd find a new barber anyway. I generally have a policy of not spending money with people that stress me out if I have other options. And there's plenty of people that cut hair.

Sure.  Just go to a barber that takes walk-ins.  No problem with that.  But make appointments that you aren't sure you can be on time for?  Not a good practice.

Walkins for the haircut during holidays week?
Maybe at a self-service place....

Quote from: kalvado on December 29, 2024, 04:14:08 PM

Quote from: Rothman on December 29, 2024, 04:11:35 PM

Quote from: Scott5114 on December 29, 2024, 03:58:21 PMI dunno, I think if a barber was that up their own ass about the schedule I'd find a new barber anyway. I generally have a policy of not spending money with people that stress me out if I have other options. And there's plenty of people that cut hair.

Sure.  Just go to a barber that takes walk-ins.  No problem with that.  But make appointments that you aren't sure you can be on time for?  Not a good practice.

Walkins for the haircut during holidays week?
Maybe at a self-service place....

Pay the no-show fee then, if you don't show up.

I have yet to pay a no-show fee for a missed appointment over my decades of existence...

Quote from: Rothman on December 29, 2024, 04:13:10 PM

Quote from: kalvado on December 29, 2024, 04:12:26 PM

Quote from: Rothman on December 29, 2024, 03:38:57 PMSeems the moral of the story is not to be late.

There is always a non-zero chance of things not adding up.

Sure, and if it was a real emergency, that's one thing.  Losing track of time at work?  Not so much.

Would there be an appointment cancellation fee if the customer couldn't come due to serious medical conditions? I heard some service providers requesting cancellation fee to be paid in case of customer death as well. That's for long term service contracts like cell service, but yet.

Quote from: kalvado on December 29, 2024, 04:18:06 PM

Quote from: Rothman on December 29, 2024, 04:13:10 PM

Quote from: kalvado on December 29, 2024, 04:12:26 PM

Quote from: Rothman on December 29, 2024, 03:38:57 PMSeems the moral of the story is not to be late.

There is always a non-zero chance of things not adding up.

Sure, and if it was a real emergency, that's one thing.  Losing track of time at work?  Not so much.

Would there be an appointment cancellation fee if the customer couldn't come due to serious medical conditions? I heard some service providers requesting cancellation fee to be paid in case of customer death as well. That's for long term service contracts like cell service, but yet.

Not what happened in this case.

Quote from: Scott5114 on December 29, 2024, 03:58:21 PMI dunno, I think if a barber was that up their own ass about the schedule I'd find a new barber anyway. I generally have a policy of not spending money with people that stress me out if I have other options. And there's plenty of people that cut hair.

Which is obviously acceptable. And the owner sounds like he doesn't want to deal with people who stress him out as well.

Quote from: SEWIGuy on December 29, 2024, 03:49:05 PM

Quote from: Rothman on December 29, 2024, 03:38:57 PMSeems the moral of the story is not to be late.

Exactly. If he is on-time none of this is an issue. And then getting mad, and posting a bad review, because they enforced a no-show policy that he agreed to seems to be a bit much.

Just be on time.

Wow, you'd think I was *trying* to be late. Of course my goal was to be on time, and I was on track to be for most of the day before a bunch of last minute stuff happened.

And I wasn't mad, just disappointed.  :sombrero:

Quote from: webny99 on December 29, 2024, 04:27:11 PM

Quote from: SEWIGuy on December 29, 2024, 03:49:05 PM

Quote from: Rothman on December 29, 2024, 03:38:57 PMSeems the moral of the story is not to be late.

Exactly. If he is on-time none of this is an issue. And then getting mad, and posting a bad review, because they enforced a no-show policy that he agreed to seems to be a bit much.

Just be on time.

Wow, you'd think I was *trying* to be late. Of course my goal was to be on time, and I was on track to be for most of the day before a bunch of last minute stuff happened.

And I wasn't mad, just disappointed.  :sombrero:

"Boss, as we arranged, I need to leave work to get to an appointment..."

Quote from: webny99 on December 29, 2024, 04:27:11 PM

Quote from: SEWIGuy on December 29, 2024, 03:49:05 PM

Quote from: Rothman on December 29, 2024, 03:38:57 PMSeems the moral of the story is not to be late.

Exactly. If he is on-time none of this is an issue. And then getting mad, and posting a bad review, because they enforced a no-show policy that he agreed to seems to be a bit much.

Just be on time.

Wow, you'd think I was *trying* to be late. Of course my goal was to be on time, and I was on track to be for most of the day before a bunch of last minute stuff happened.

And I wasn't mad, just disappointed.  :sombrero:

You were still late. You then agreed to the cancellation fee. Then still left a poor review.

And then made the owner sit on the phone with you for 20 minutes.

Honestly you're lucky they accepted you back as a customer.

Quote from: SEWIGuy on December 29, 2024, 04:26:06 PM

Quote from: Scott5114 on December 29, 2024, 03:58:21 PMI dunno, I think if a barber was that up their own ass about the schedule I'd find a new barber anyway. I generally have a policy of not spending money with people that stress me out if I have other options. And there's plenty of people that cut hair.

Which is obviously acceptable. And the owner sounds like he doesn't want to deal with people who stress him out as well.

Which is his right, of course. But man, based on my experience with the General Public, I'd think he'd have to be a pretty freakin' special barber to be able to find enough people willing to put up with that to stay in business in this day and age.

Trying to put the screws to someone over a bad review is pretty unprofessional, though. I think some review sites penalize businesses that are reported doing things like that.

Quote from: SEWIGuy on December 29, 2024, 04:34:10 PMYou were still late. You then agreed to the cancellation fee. Then still left a poor review.

Yeah, I'm aware. You're restating the obvious here.

QuoteAnd then made the owner sit on the phone with you for 20 minutes.

Actually it was entirely the other way around. He called me first and proceeded to do probably 75% of the talking when I called back. Honestly the vast majority of people in my situation wouldn't have the energy or the guts to call back in the first place, and I really only did so because I was curious and optimistic that he might be either apologizing, offering to credit my money back, or both. What I got couldn't have been more opposite.

QuoteHonestly you're lucky they accepted you back as a customer.

Ok, I am thoroughly confused now. If you think a business should refuse service to a loyal customer because of a bad review, you are missing the point and clearly lack understanding of (a) the purpose of Google reviews, (b) the purpose of customer service, and (c) how relationship building and client retention works in the real business world.

Quote from: Rothman on December 29, 2024, 04:32:33 PM"Boss, as we arranged, I need to leave work to get to an appointment..."

Normally, yes, but without getting even further in the weeds, it wasn't stuff I could hand back to my boss to finish, nor was it him or anyone else at work that detained me. Just my own perfectionism and lack of effective time management during the critical last hour, and I take 100% responsibility for having room to improve there.

I know entirely how customer acquisition and retention works. It's the business I am in. And I know that sometimes cutting bait with a difficult customer is for the best.

The customer simply isn't always right. And in your case, I can see how the business owner came to that conclusion.

So to understand what happened with the reviews: You've been going here for years. Never left a positive review.

You ran late, which wasn't the fault of the shop. They charged you a fee for missing the appointment, which you agreed to, regardless if you recall agreeing to that. You left a 1 star review.

Businesses hate people like you.  Even the 3 star review wasn't warranted. You said everything went well with the service you paid for.

Quote from: webny99 on December 29, 2024, 02:37:30 PM

Quote from: jeffandnicole on December 28, 2024, 10:59:48 PMWhen an appointment is cancelled at the last minute, that's a loss of pay to the employee. Imagine if your job told you they're not going to pay you for 30-60 minutes. Oh, and you can't leave.

My response to that is: Why?

As far as I know, there's no legal requirement or mandate they employees can't get paid if they're not actively working, so it doesn't *have* to be that way. What about slow days, or appointments that go quicker than expected? It's not like the appointment revenue is going direct to the employee's paycheck - they're two separate things and it's ultimately up to the owners/managers of the company to decide how those situations will be handled.

I didn't say there was a legal requirement.  If you have any hairdresser friends, talk to them about how noshows affect their pay, and how they can't exactly just leave since they'll have minimal time between appointments, unless of course it's the last appointment of the day.

Quote from: Scott5114 on December 29, 2024, 04:35:27 PMTrying to put the screws to someone over a bad review is pretty unprofessional, though. I think some review sites penalize businesses that are reported doing things like that.

I thought so too, but didn't know how to convey that at the time. It was honestly a very weird experience to be talking about a Google review over the phone (that he was just assuming was mine since I don't post my name on Google, and I didn't even leave any specific comments or anything), yet his attitude was that the review was a threat to his business and that he'd already lost me as a customer.

That couldn't have been further from the truth - I literally rebooked my haircut with his company and he had a great opportunity to turn a dissatisfied customer into a long time loyal customer, but he simply could not see past the cancellation fee or the review.

Quote from: webny99 on December 29, 2024, 06:58:12 PM

Quote from: Scott5114 on December 29, 2024, 04:35:27 PMTrying to put the screws to someone over a bad review is pretty unprofessional, though. I think some review sites penalize businesses that are reported doing things like that.

I thought so too, but didn't know how to convey that at the time. It was honestly a very weird experience to be talking about a Google review over the phone (that he was just assuming was mine since I don't post my name on Google, and I didn't even leave any specific comments or anything), yet his attitude was that the review was a threat to his business and that he'd already lost me as a customer.

That couldn't have been further from the truth - I literally rebooked my haircut with his company and he had a great opportunity to turn a dissatisfied customer into a long time loyal customer, but he simply could not see past the cancellation fee or the review.

"I ran late and violated the cancellation policy and left a poor review even though I agreed to pay it, but the business owner didn't do what I wanted so I'm leaving."

Such entitled nonsense.

Quote from: webny99 on December 29, 2024, 06:37:02 PM

Quote from: Rothman on December 29, 2024, 04:32:33 PM"Boss, as we arranged, I need to leave work to get to an appointment..."

Normally, yes, but without getting even further in the weeds, it wasn't stuff I could hand back to my boss to finish, nor was it him or anyone else at work that detained me. Just my own perfectionism and lack of effective time management during the critical last hour, and I take 100% responsibility for having room to improve there.

Glad to have my description of events confirmed.

Quote from: jeffandnicole on December 29, 2024, 06:48:15 PMBusinesses hate people like you. 

They're in business because of people like me, so I guess they hate being in business too.

Quote from: jeffandnicole on December 29, 2024, 06:48:15 PM

QuoteAs far as I know, there's no legal requirement or mandate they employees can't get paid if they're not actively working, so it doesn't *have* to be that way. What about slow days, or appointments that go quicker than expected? It's not like the appointment revenue is going direct to the employee's paycheck - they're two separate things and it's ultimately up to the owners/managers of the company to decide how those situations will be handled.

I didn't say there was a legal requirement.  If you have any hairdresser friends, talk to them about how noshows affect their pay, and how they can't exactly just leave since they'll have minimal time between appointments, unless of course it's the last appointment of the day.

I'm not disputing that, but you're missing the point, which is that the owners/managers have control over whether or not to pay their employees in that situation.

In this case, I was talking with the owner. He kept saying "the barbers don't get paid if there's a cancellation", and he could have kept saying it until he was blue in the face, but it doesn't change the fact that not paying them is his choice. He's the owner. He could absolutely pay them and factor it in to the cost of doing business if he so chose, but he chose to protect his profits and enforce the cancellation fee instead.

Quote from: SEWIGuy on December 29, 2024, 07:08:21 PM"I ran late and violated the cancellation policy and left a poor review even though I agreed to pay it, but the business owner didn't do what I wanted so I'm leaving."

Such entitled nonsense.

Whoops, I think you forgot to read the text you quoted. In case it wasn't clear before, he *told* me to leave. He literally said "You are not welcome back and we'll be cancelling the appointment for tomorrow morning" before I said anything more than hello. It was a massive overreaction to a one star review that he clearly viewed as a threat when it was nothing of the sort.

Quote from: webny99 on December 29, 2024, 08:18:12 PM

Quote from: SEWIGuy on December 29, 2024, 07:08:21 PM"I ran late and violated the cancellation policy and left a poor review even though I agreed to pay it, but the business owner didn't do what I wanted so I'm leaving."

Such entitled nonsense.

Whoops, I think you forgot to read the text you quoted. In case it wasn't clear before, he *told* me to leave. He literally said "You are not welcome back and we'll be cancelling the appointment for tomorrow morning" before I said anything more than hello. It was a massive overreaction to a one star review that he clearly viewed as a threat when it was nothing of the sort.

It was an overreaction, but it is a sympathetic one in my opinion. Customers who think they are worth more than they truly are, and are largely going to be d-bags about it even though it was THEIR fault, aren't worth the effort to retain.

Quote from: kalvado on December 29, 2024, 04:18:06 PMWould there be an appointment cancellation fee if the customer couldn't come due to serious medical conditions?

Not necessarily. A couple years ago we were on vacation when we were called home because my daughter was in the hospital. We called the hotel we were due to stay at that night, and they cancelled our reservation without penalty, even though we missed the 24-hour notice.

Quote from: GaryV on December 29, 2024, 08:28:59 PM

Quote from: kalvado on December 29, 2024, 04:18:06 PMWould there be an appointment cancellation fee if the customer couldn't come due to serious medical conditions?

Not necessarily. A couple years ago we were on vacation when we were called home because my daughter was in the hospital. We called the hotel we were due to stay at that night, and they cancelled our reservation without penalty, even though we missed the 24-hour notice.

Had to get a bulging tire replaced in Newfoundland that totally screwed up my travel plans.  Hotel had a "pay in full with too little notice" and didn't charge it due to the situation when I called.

Quote from: SEWIGuy on December 29, 2024, 08:22:16 PMCustomers who think they are worth more than they truly are, and are largely going to be d-bags about it even though it was THEIR fault, aren't worth the effort to retain.

I don't disagree with this sentiment, but I'm not in the barbershop business, so it's not my place to say if I'm overestimating my worth or not.

What I will say is that I've been there four times and paid more in tips in those four visits than the entire cancellation fee was worth. Crediting the fee would have guaranteed my business for at least a year. At ~8-10 cuts per year, that's triple the value of the fee right there. So I guess you can do the math, but like I said earlier, I think they're tripping over dollars to pick up pennies.

Quote from: webny99 on December 29, 2024, 08:36:28 PMWhat I will say is that I've been there four times and paid more in tips in those four visits than the entire cancellation fee was worth.

How many positive Google reviews did you leave after those trips?

Quote from: webny99 on December 29, 2024, 02:37:30 PM

Quote from: jeffandnicole on December 28, 2024, 10:59:48 PMWhen an appointment is cancelled at the last minute, that's a loss of pay to the employee. Imagine if your job told you they're not going to pay you for 30-60 minutes. Oh, and you can't leave.

My response to that is: Why?

As far as I know, there's no legal requirement or mandate they employees can't get paid if they're not actively working, so it doesn't *have* to be that way. What about slow days, or appointments that go quicker than expected? It's not like the appointment revenue is going direct to the employee's paycheck - they're two separate things and it's ultimately up to the owners/managers of the company to decide how those situations will be handled.

Not everyone works salary.  People in the service sector typically work hourly or even per client (much like how many people in sales are paid per commission only).

Quote from: webny99 on December 29, 2024, 06:28:28 PMActually it was entirely the other way around.

Quote from: webny99 on December 29, 2024, 01:53:11 PMso I stalled for time for a bit, let him do a bit more talking, and eventually after close to 20 minutes on the phone,

You're contradicting yourself here.

Seriously, it's not hard to see why they reacted as they did.  You made an appointment you couldn't guarantee you could keep, accepted the cancellation fee rather than re-book for the following week (which is what you should have done), then left a 1-star review because you only accepted the cancellation fee because you assumed you could get away with not paying it, and then proceeded to play games with the appointments.

Honestly, it probably wasn't hard for them to figure out it was you who left the review on Google.  Just because you posted "anonymously" doesn't mean they can't figure out who you were based on what you posted.  How many people do you think get called because they're running late, accept the cancellation fee rather than re-book with the same barber, and then proceed to leave a 1-star review?  Pro tip: nothing on the internet is truly anonymous unless you're extremely stingy with revealing information that can be linked to you and use a VPN/Tor.

They're not in business because of people like you.  They're in business because of people who actually keep their appointments.  If every customer acted like you, they'd bleed money so fast they'd be out of business before the paint dried on their walls.

Quote from: SEWIGuy on December 29, 2024, 08:38:43 PM

Quote from: webny99 on December 29, 2024, 08:36:28 PMWhat I will say is that I've been there four times and paid more in tips in those four visits than the entire cancellation fee was worth.

How many positive Google reviews did you leave after those trips?

Zero, but what does that have to do with anything? What do you think the purpose of Google reviews are, anyways?

IMO, since you asked: Reviews are helpful for informing the public and can be useful as a customer satisfaction metric for businesses in the aggregate, but they hold pretty much no value to the person writing them.

I have only 10 Google reviews posted currently. Seven are one or two stars (bad experiences), one is four stars (informative), one is five stars (positive feedback), and the last is the the three star one I left for the barbershop that I'm sure anyone could find pretty easily by now if they so desired.

I'm typically only inspired to post a review if I feel there's something the public should know about a place that's not already obvious or made clear by other reviews. I've never received a response to any of my reviews until now, and irony of all ironies, I've actually been a repeat customer of three of the places that I left one-star reviews  :-D

Just goes to show that reviews are a fickle and ultimately pretty meaningless tool that everyone uses in their own way for their own reasons.

Quote from: webny99 on December 29, 2024, 08:08:15 PM

Quote from: jeffandnicole on December 29, 2024, 06:48:15 PM

QuoteAs far as I know, there's no legal requirement or mandate they employees can't get paid if they're not actively working, so it doesn't *have* to be that way. What about slow days, or appointments that go quicker than expected? It's not like the appointment revenue is going direct to the employee's paycheck - they're two separate things and it's ultimately up to the owners/managers of the company to decide how those situations will be handled.

I didn't say there was a legal requirement.  If you have any hairdresser friends, talk to them about how noshows affect their pay, and how they can't exactly just leave since they'll have minimal time between appointments, unless of course it's the last appointment of the day.

I'm not disputing that, but you're missing the point, which is that the owners/managers have control over whether or not to pay their employees in that situation.

In this case, I was talking with the owner. He kept saying "the barbers don't get paid if there's a cancellation", and he could have kept saying it until he was blue in the face, but it doesn't change the fact that not paying them is his choice. He's the owner. He could absolutely pay them and factor it in to the cost of doing business if he so chose, but he chose to protect his profits and enforce the cancellation fee instead.

The barbers and hairdressers may not even be employees, but individual contractors. They rent a chair at the business. They bring their own supplies. They don't have a supply closest, but rather buy certain supplies from the business.

The business may get a percentage of the revenue to the barber. The barbers may make their own hours. They don't healthcare or vacation days or sick time. At the end of the year, they get a 1099, not a W-2.

Quote from: vdeane on December 29, 2024, 09:11:27 PM

QuoteActually it was entirely the other way around.

Quoteso I stalled for time for a bit, let him do a bit more talking, and eventually after close to 20 minutes on the phone,

You're contradicting yourself here.

What's contradictory about that? He called to rant about a poor review, and I let him do exactly that. He chose to call (I chose to call back, same difference).

Quote from: vdeane on December 29, 2024, 09:11:27 PMYou made an appointment you couldn't guarantee you could keep

If you want to go down that road, that's literally every appointment ever booked.

Quote from: vdeane on December 29, 2024, 09:11:27 PMYou... accepted the cancellation fee rather than re-book for the following week (which is what you should have done),

To clarify regarding your entire post, rebooking with the same barber would NOT have waived the cancellation fee. I had to pay the cancellation fee no matter what, even if I rebooked with the same barber. I think that may be affecting your view on things and should help clarify why I accepted the cancellation fee despite being very hesitant: I literally had no choice at that point.

But just in case, I'll add that whether I should have re-booked for a week later is a personal hygiene decision and it happened to not work for me to wait that long. If I was saving the cancellation fee by doing so, I may have considered it, but that wasn't the case.

Quote from: kalvado on December 29, 2024, 04:14:08 PM

Quote from: Rothman on December 29, 2024, 04:11:35 PM

Quote from: Scott5114 on December 29, 2024, 03:58:21 PMI dunno, I think if a barber was that up their own ass about the schedule I'd find a new barber anyway. I generally have a policy of not spending money with people that stress me out if I have other options. And there's plenty of people that cut hair.

Sure.  Just go to a barber that takes walk-ins.  No problem with that.  But make appointments that you aren't sure you can be on time for?  Not a good practice.

Walkins for the haircut during holidays week?

The barber shop I go to is this. Old school. 3 barbers, 6 waiting chairs. No appointments. No credit cards. If you go and want to wait for a specific barber you can. Anyone that's a regular there knows what to expect.

Quote from: webny99 on December 29, 2024, 09:17:13 PM

Quote from: SEWIGuy on December 29, 2024, 08:38:43 PM

Quote from: webny99 on December 29, 2024, 08:36:28 PMWhat I will say is that I've been there four times and paid more in tips in those four visits than the entire cancellation fee was worth.

How many positive Google reviews did you leave after those trips?

Zero,

So you are just a complainer.

Again it may be an overreaction, but I wouldn't want to deal with you either. Can't blame him.

Quote from: SEWIGuy on December 30, 2024, 08:26:54 AM

Quote

QuoteHow many positive Google reviews did you leave after those trips?

Zero,

So you are just a complainer.

You are more than welcome to think that, but then the owner is even more of complainer for literally complaining to a customer about their review.

I also think you need to re-consider what I said about the value and purpose of reviews.

Quote from: webny99 on December 30, 2024, 10:19:22 AM

Quote from: SEWIGuy on December 30, 2024, 08:26:54 AM

Quote

QuoteHow many positive Google reviews did you leave after those trips?

Zero,

So you are just a complainer.

You are more than welcome to think that, but then the owner is even more of complainer for literally complaining to a customer about their review.

I also think you need to re-consider what I said about the value and purpose of reviews.

Two wrongs don't make a single right in this case.
 I just suspect that the owner is sick and tired of those who take non-prepaid reservations as a mere suggestion.

Quote from: webny99 on December 29, 2024, 09:50:48 PM

Quote

QuoteActually it was entirely the other way around.

Quoteso I stalled for time for a bit, let him do a bit more talking, and eventually after close to 20 minutes on the phone,

You're contradicting yourself here.

What's contradictory about that? He called to rant about a poor review, and I let him do exactly that. He chose to call (I chose to call back, same difference).

You literally said that you stalled for time.

Quote from: webny99 on December 29, 2024, 01:53:11 PMSince I typically pay cash, I honestly didn't think they had my card on file to charge, but I checked an hour later and sure enough they'd already charged it. I was pretty annoyed by paying almost $30 for nothing (partly my own fault, I'm aware) so I dumped a one star review on Google and figured I'd see if anything came of it.

You should have disputed that charge with your credit card issuer.

Quote from: hbelkins on December 30, 2024, 02:46:16 PM

Quote from: webny99 on December 29, 2024, 01:53:11 PMSince I typically pay cash, I honestly didn't think they had my card on file to charge, but I checked an hour later and sure enough they'd already charged it. I was pretty annoyed by paying almost $30 for nothing (partly my own fault, I'm aware) so I dumped a one star review on Google and figured I'd see if anything came of it.

You should have disputed that charge with your credit card issuer.

This issue isn't what credit card disputes are for.  The agreement was in place for the merchant to charge the credit card for a no-show fee. That's exactly what occurred.

If webny went to his appointment, paid for it, and didn't receive a haircut, then he can dispute that.

Also, if the credit card company decides a dispute may be valid, they will contact the merchant.  If the owner is already unhappy with webny, things aren't going to get any better.

Quote from: vdeane on December 30, 2024, 12:47:37 PM

QuoteWhat's contradictory about that? He called to rant about a poor review, and I let him do exactly that. He chose to call (I chose to call back, same difference).

You literally said that you stalled for time.

We are verging on beating a dead horse here, but there is no significance in that distinction because it was his choice to be on the phone with me in the first place. "Stalling for time" was simply inherent to the bizarre nature of the conversation.

Quote from: jeffandnicole on December 30, 2024, 03:01:35 PMIf webny went to his appointment, paid for it, and didn't receive a haircut, then he can dispute that.

Technically, I did "go" to my appointment and came as close as driving by the building. I was certainly in no mood to walk in and see what happened at that point, though maybe things would have turned out better if I had.

"I drove by your business and didn't stop, so I shouldn't have to pay the cancellation fee" actually made me crack a smile.

Quote from: Rothman on December 30, 2024, 03:27:54 PM"I drove by your business and didn't stop, so I shouldn't have to pay the cancellation fee" actually made me crack a smile.

I'm glad you can appreciate the irony.

It seems like the goal of this thread was to get all of us upset about cancelation fees so as to ultimately generate sympathy for the OP and the situation he got himself into.

Quote from: CtrlAltDel on December 30, 2024, 04:15:45 PMIt seems like the goal of this thread was to get all of us upset about cancelation fees so as to ultimately generate sympathy for the OP and the situation he got himself into.

Ha, I have been around here MUCH too long to expect that. Enough said about my experiences though. I really just wanted an interesting discussion around business policies, customer service, and Google reviews.

Quote from: webny99 on December 30, 2024, 03:14:24 PM

Quote from: jeffandnicole on December 30, 2024, 03:01:35 PMIf webny went to his appointment, paid for it, and didn't receive a haircut, then he can dispute that.

Technically, I did "go" to my appointment and came as close as driving by the building. I was certainly in no mood to walk in and see what happened at that point, though maybe things would have turned out better if I had.

In hindsight, you absolutely should've stopped in.  There you would've seen your actual barber, and he/she may have had the time to give you the haircut anyway, or come up with another time slot that works for the both of you.

Or, look, any good barbershop has some mob affiliation to it.  You're in New York.  I'm from Joisey.  Money talks.  Slip someone a 20 and suddenly problems are forgotten.  If players and fans can literally barter for goods in the middle of a pro-football game in South Philly, you can barter for a haircut 15 minutes past your appointment time in upstate New York.  Or give them a folding table.  Whatever works.

Quote from: webny99 on December 29, 2024, 04:27:11 PMWow, you'd think I was *trying* to be late. Of course my goal was to be on time, and I was on track to be for most of the day before a bunch of last minute stuff happened.

You were on time until it came time to be on time, then you weren't? You expect the barber to give you a gold star for  being on time most of the day? A pat on the head maybe?

Quote from: davewiecking on December 30, 2024, 08:34:41 PM

Quote from: webny99 on December 29, 2024, 04:27:11 PMWow, you'd think I was *trying* to be late. Of course my goal was to be on time, and I was on track to be for most of the day before a bunch of last minute stuff happened.

You were on time until it came time to be on time, then you weren't? You expect the barber to give you a gold star for  being on time most of the day? A pat on the head maybe?

I would have preferred a haircut, actually. :eyebrow:

Quote from: webny99 on December 30, 2024, 03:14:24 PM"Stalling for time" was simply inherent to the bizarre nature of the conversation.

"Stalling for time" is a statement of intent.  It means that you let it drag on longer than it otherwise would have in the hopes that circumstances would somehow change.  It does not mean "I would have ended the conversation sooner but the guy decided to yap for a while".

Quote from: vdeane on December 30, 2024, 09:23:56 PM

Quote"Stalling for time" was simply inherent to the bizarre nature of the conversation.

"Stalling for time" is a statement of intent.  It means that you let it drag on longer than it otherwise would have in the hopes that circumstances would somehow change.  It does not mean "I would have ended the conversation sooner but the guy decided to yap for a while".

Of course I was hoping that the circumstances would change. Why else would I have called back in the first place?

Quote from: jeffandnicole on December 30, 2024, 06:24:46 PMMoney talks.  Slip someone a 20 and suddenly problems are forgotten. 

Haha, some tremendous irony there considering that a 20 and change was what *started* the problems here. :sombrero:

Quote from: webny99 on December 30, 2024, 09:59:54 PM

Quote from: vdeane on December 30, 2024, 09:23:56 PM

Quote"Stalling for time" was simply inherent to the bizarre nature of the conversation.

"Stalling for time" is a statement of intent.  It means that you let it drag on longer than it otherwise would have in the hopes that circumstances would somehow change.  It does not mean "I would have ended the conversation sooner but the guy decided to yap for a while".

Of course I was hoping that the circumstances would change. Why else would I have called back in the first place?

I meant after the call had started...

Is there some generational thing going on?  Is this like boomers getting exasperated at how my generation and people younger use the word "literally" (as in, "I have literally seen people's heads explode over this")?  Or how one of my high school teachers felt the urge to correct us whenever we used "like" (as in "it was, like, 50 degrees outside")?

Quote from: vdeane on December 31, 2024, 12:55:09 PMIs there some generational thing going on?  Is this like boomers getting exasperated at how my generation and people younger use the word "literally" (as in, "I have literally seen people's heads explode over this")?  Or how one of my high school teachers felt the urge to correct us whenever we used "like" (as in "it was, like, 50 degrees outside")?

I think you and I are, by most definitions, in the same generation, so I'm not sure what you mean by that here.

Quote from: webny99 on December 31, 2024, 01:09:09 PM

Quote from: vdeane on December 31, 2024, 12:55:09 PMIs there some generational thing going on?  Is this like boomers getting exasperated at how my generation and people younger use the word "literally" (as in, "I have literally seen people's heads explode over this")?  Or how one of my high school teachers felt the urge to correct us whenever we used "like" (as in "it was, like, 50 degrees outside")?

I think you and I are, by most definitions, in the same generation, so I'm not sure what you mean by that here.

I wasn't sure if Gen Z had come up with some alternate usage of "stalled for time" like Millennials did.

Incidentally, I usually see the dividing line as being in the 1995-1998 range.  Granted, you're a couple years closer to that line than I assumed, but I'm still firmly on the Millennial side (so Gen Alpha probably considers me older than dirt).

Quote from: SectorZ on January 01, 2025, 10:45:52 AM

Quote from: webny99 on December 31, 2024, 01:09:09 PM

Quote from: vdeane on December 31, 2024, 12:55:09 PMIs there some generational thing going on?  Is this like boomers getting exasperated at how my generation and people younger use the word "literally" (as in, "I have literally seen people's heads explode over this")?  Or how one of my high school teachers felt the urge to correct us whenever we used "like" (as in "it was, like, 50 degrees outside")?

I think you and I are, by most definitions, in the same generation, so I'm not sure what you mean by that here.

In, like, the same generation, or literally in the same one?

That's what my teacher would say whenever we used "like", except she used actually instead of literally.

Quote from: kalvado on December 30, 2024, 10:24:03 AM

Quote from: webny99 on December 30, 2024, 10:19:22 AM

Quote from: SEWIGuy on December 30, 2024, 08:26:54 AMSo you are just a complainer.

You are more than welcome to think that, but then the owner is even more of complainer for literally complaining to a customer about their review.

Two wrongs don't make a single right in this case.

Whoops, seeing as I missed this earlier, this is hilarious because "two wrongs don't make a right" applies to the second wrong, i.e. you shouldn't retaliate if you feel you have been harmed. So, you're speaking to the barbershop owner on this one, not me. And that is true no matter how you feel about the cancellation fee:

If enforcing the fee was right, then leaving a poor review was the first wrong.
If enforcing the fee was wrong, then leaving a poor review was not a wrong at all.

Quote from: webny99 on January 03, 2025, 08:33:11 AM

Quote from: kalvado on December 30, 2024, 10:24:03 AM

Quote from: webny99 on December 30, 2024, 10:19:22 AM

Quote from: SEWIGuy on December 30, 2024, 08:26:54 AMSo you are just a complainer.

You are more than welcome to think that, but then the owner is even more of complainer for literally complaining to a customer about their review.

Two wrongs don't make a single right in this case.

Whoops, seeing as I missed this earlier, this is hilarious because "two wrongs don't make a right" applies to the second wrong, i.e. you shouldn't retaliate if you feel you have been harmed. So, you're speaking to the barbershop owner on this one, not me. And that is true no matter how you feel about the cancellation fee:

If enforcing the fee was right, then leaving a poor review was the first wrong.
If enforcing the fee was wrong, then leaving a poor review was not a wrong at all.

The first wrong which started the chain of retaliations was being late and not giving an as early notice as possible. So whatever happened after that was second, third and fourth wrongs. Which still didn't add up to a right.

How many wrongs do add up to a right, then?  I would have thought four would have done it.

Quote from: Rothman on January 03, 2025, 09:21:46 AMHow many wrongs do add up to a right, then?  I would have thought four would have done it.

You should ask your NYSDOT friends how it works. 6 roundabouts at Malta are apparently not enough, so your answer is " no less than 7"

Quote from: kalvado on January 03, 2025, 09:06:42 AM

Quote from: webny99 on January 03, 2025, 08:33:11 AM...

If enforcing the fee was right, then leaving a poor review was the first wrong.
If enforcing the fee was wrong, then leaving a poor review was not a wrong at all.

The first wrong which started the chain of retaliations was being late and not giving an as early notice as possible.

It was definitely as early as possible, I just happen to value keeping my job and completing what had to be done before the weekend over getting a haircut, so that happened to not be early enough. Like I said, things started out on the wrong foot by booking for Friday afternoon. Lesson learned.

Quote from: kalvado on January 03, 2025, 09:32:09 AM

Quote from: Rothman on January 03, 2025, 09:21:46 AMHow many wrongs do add up to a right, then?  I would have thought four would have done it.

You should ask your NYSDOT friends how it works. 6 roundabouts at Malta are apparently not enough, so your answer is " no less than 7"

I thought that was how many angels could dance on the head of a pin.

Quote from: webny99 on January 03, 2025, 01:58:52 PM

Quote from: kalvado on January 03, 2025, 09:06:42 AM

Quote from: webny99 on January 03, 2025, 08:33:11 AM...

If enforcing the fee was right, then leaving a poor review was the first wrong.
If enforcing the fee was wrong, then leaving a poor review was not a wrong at all.

The first wrong which started the chain of retaliations was being late and not giving an as early notice as possible.

It was definitely as early as possible, I just happen to value keeping my job and completing what had to be done before the weekend over getting a haircut, so that happened to not be early enough. Like I said, things started out on the wrong foot by booking for Friday afternoon. Lesson learned.

Do I remember correctly that it was the shop calling you to find out you're running late? If that is the case, you definitely wasn't proactive enough. 

Thank you, |webny99|, for directing me to this thread.  Here is my take:

Quote from: webny99 on December 29, 2024, 01:53:11 PMI ran late, and while I was on my way they called to ask if I was coming and I said yes, but they soured after finding I'd be close to 15 minutes late.

I offered to rebook, but they were swamped so I couldn't rebook with my usual barber until next week, so I very reluctantly accepted the no show fee (full price) and a rebooking for Saturday afternoon with another barber.

I then called their other location to see about an earlier time slot. They had a Saturday morning appointment that I preferred, so I took it.

Since I typically pay cash, I honestly didn't think they had my card on file to charge, but I checked an hour later and sure enough they'd already charged it.

This is where the story should have ended.  You were late, they charged you a fee, and you booked a new appointment.  That's how things work.

Any other day, they may have been able to fit you in later the same day, but obviously they were too busy for that to be a solution.

Quote from: webny99 on December 29, 2024, 01:53:11 PMI was pretty annoyed by paying almost $30 for nothing (partly my own fault, I'm aware) so I dumped a one star review on Google and figured I'd see if anything came of it.

Quote from: webny99 on December 29, 2024, 06:28:28 PMyou are missing the point and clearly lack understanding of the purpose of Google reviews

No, I think it's you who doesn't understand the purpose of Google reviews.  Their purpose is not to strong-arm the business owner into giving in to you demands.  What else could you have meant by "I'd see if anything came of it" than that you wanted your 1-star review to compel the business owner to make the situation better? that you expected them to know it was you who left the review? that you expected them to call you back and make it right?

Quote from: webny99 on December 29, 2024, 01:53:11 PMWithin an hour their number called again and I was busy, so I called back later when I got a good chance, still mildly annoyed but optimistic.

See?  Something came of it.  Just like you expected.  (Of course, that's not the purpose of Google reviews...)

Quote from: webny99 on December 29, 2024, 01:53:11 PMThe guy I spoke to earlier (who turned out to be the owner) was pretty worked up and confused about why I left one star but then rebooked at their other location, and told me that I wasn't welcome for my appointment in the morning because of the review.

I'm not 100% settled on this take, but I think that was unacceptable of him.  A customer should not be refused service just because he or she left a bad review.  I do, of course, also see the merchant's side of it.

Quote from: webny99 on December 29, 2024, 01:53:11 PMSo I got my hair cut without incident yesterday but concluded that the vibes are now so weird that I'm going to find a new barber anyways.

...

And since the owner cared so much about the review, I also left a new *three* star review stating that they were tripping over dollars to pick up pennies and that they valued my review more than my business, so they could have what they valued most, but that I did have a good experience with both of the barbers that had cut my hair. So there you have it.

That's a fair response after all, and it's the only thing you should have done on Google to begin with.  You shouldn't have left the 1-star review but saved your review till the situation was fully resolved.  And it sounds like the later 3-star review actually falls in line with "the purpose of Google reviews", which you later correctly asserted to be that...

Quote from: webny99 on December 29, 2024, 09:17:13 PMReviews are helpful for informing the public and can be useful as a customer satisfaction metric for businesses

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Quote from: webny99 on December 29, 2024, 08:36:28 PMI've been there four times

Quote from: webny99 on December 29, 2024, 06:28:28 PMIf you think a business should refuse service to a loyal customer because of a bad review,

You're not a loyal customer.  You've only been there four times.

---

Quote from: webny99 on December 29, 2024, 02:37:30 PMAs far as I know, there's no legal requirement or mandate they employees can't get paid if they're not actively working, so it doesn't *have* to be that way. What about slow days, or appointments that go quicker than expected? It's not like the appointment revenue is going direct to the employee's paycheck - they're two separate things and it's ultimately up to the owners/managers of the company to decide how those situations will be handled.

Quote from: webny99 on December 29, 2024, 08:08:15 PMthe owners/managers have control over whether or not to pay their employees in that situation.

In this case, I was talking with the owner. He kept saying "the barbers don't get paid if there's a cancellation", and he could have kept saying it until he was blue in the face, but it doesn't change the fact that not paying them is his choice. He's the owner. He could absolutely pay them and factor it in to the cost of doing business if he so chose, but he chose to protect his profits and enforce the cancellation fee instead.

Quote from: jeffandnicole on December 29, 2024, 09:46:06 PMThe barbers and hairdressers may not even be employees, but individual contractors. They rent a chair at the business. They bring their own supplies. They don't have a supply closest, but rather buy certain supplies from the business.

The business may get a percentage of the revenue to the barber. The barbers may make their own hours. They don't healthcare or vacation days or sick time. At the end of the year, they get a 1099, not a W-2.

Either this reply by |jeffandnicole| went unnoticed, or else you have deliberately ignored it.

Back when I was going to the barber shop, each barber was his own independent contractor who rented his space in the shop.  If I took my three sons to get their haircuts, then I had to pay each barber individually.  The owner of the barber shop was not paying them an hourly wage.  So no, if I missed my appointment, then she couldn't just "pay them and factor it in to the cost of doing business", because she wasn't someone who paid them at all in the first place.  When one of the barbers left to set up in a different shop, we followed him, and it worked the same was as the first shop.  I think we followed him through three different moves before his rates got too expensive for our family, and my impression over that time was that this business model is fairly commonplace in the barber shop world.

My wife's salon operates the same way.  Each hairdresser there is an independent contractor who rents her space in the shop.  If my wife misses her appointment and the stylist can't fill it with another customer, then she simply doesn't get paid for that timeslot.  The owner of the salon can't simply keep her "on the clock", because there's no such thing as "the clock".  They're paid directly by the customer.  In fact, because my wife sells Scentsy and her stylist uses Scentsy, my wife often actually pays for her haircut in Scentsy products rather than cash.

Just seeing this thread. As someone who ran restaurants for years, I side with the business owners every time here. You make policies to prevent you from losing irreplaceable revenue and so should expect your customers to follow them. I had one couple who made reservations for my restaurant every Friday night at 7:00 (aka prime time). There was a two month stretch where they only showed up once and I no-showed them the other seven times. The next time we were calling to confirm reservations the day before, I proceeded to let them know that I wouldn't be accepting their reservation requests due to them not actually showing up for seven of the eight previous Fridays. They pushed back a little bit telling me that I was going to lose their business completely, and I told them, in a moment of less-than-professionalism, that it appeared I already had.

We'd also have private parties book our private rooms, signing contracts and agreeing to a minimum spend and then get grumpy when I'd add a room charge when they didn't meet their minimums. Most of the time I was nice and would let them take home bottles of wine if they were cool about it, but the jerks that weren't? I just met the terms of the contract and got some free revenue.

A few weeks ago, I had to cancel a dog boarding reservation at the last minute - less than 24 hours. I have to put a deposit down to reserve at this place, and when I asked if I would get that back she said, "not if it is within 24 hours."

When I said "OK, I understand," her response was, "well since you have never cancelled at the last minute before, we would be happy to give it back as in-store credit." I thanked them repeatedly.

My point is that oftentimes businesses will bend their policies if you are indeed a good customer, and are nice about it. Strong-arming them through online reviews doesn't help.

I work in the telecom business, and our techs are contractors.  If you're moving into a new house and schedule a cable tech to come out and install services for you, but then you're not there when the tech shows up during the scheduled timeframe, then here's what happens:

1.  Our company doesn't get paid.  Depending on the market, we either get paid by the job type or by the point based on individual job codes.  If our contractor doesn't complete a job, then we don't get paid for the job.

2.  Our tech doesn't get paid.  Depending on the market, they either get paid by the job type or by the point based on individual job codes.  If they don't complete a job, then they don't get paid for the job.  Yes, it was our company's decision to employ the techs as contractors and pay them by the job or by the point, rather than employ them as employees and pay them hourly, but this does not negate (1) above.  Even if we paid them hourly, of course, we'd still require them to clock out between jobs if they were just sitting around.

3.  The tech did, however, pay for the gas to get to your house.  He's already at a net-negative.

4.  Because you had an appointment scheduled, your installation was taking up quota for the day.  So it's likely that there isn't another job for the tech to do in the meantime, unless someone else is running behind in his area.  So now he's stuck sitting around, calling other customers to see if they might be available early.  If they aren't, then he can't make money until his next scheduled job, and neither can our company.

5.  The customer is not charged for missing the appointment.  So we lose money, but the customer is not penalized.

Quote from: JayhawkCO on February 24, 2025, 10:25:13 AMJust seeing this thread. As someone who ran restaurants for years, I side with the business owners every time here. You make policies to prevent you from losing irreplaceable revenue and so should expect your customers to follow them. I had one couple who made reservations for my restaurant every Friday night at 7:00 (aka prime time). There was a two month stretch where they only showed up once and I no-showed them the other seven times. The next time we were calling to confirm reservations the day before, I proceeded to let them know that I wouldn't be accepting their reservation requests due to them not actually showing up for seven of the eight previous Fridays. They pushed back a little bit telling me that I was going to lose their business completely, and I told them, in a moment of less-than-professionalism, that it appeared I already had.

We'd also have private parties book our private rooms, signing contracts and agreeing to a minimum spend and then get grumpy when I'd add a room charge when they didn't meet their minimums. Most of the time I was nice and would let them take home bottles of wine if they were cool about it, but the jerks that weren't? I just met the terms of the contract and got some free revenue.

I agree with this.  Along the same line (but not near the $$ impact that JayhawkCO was dealing with), I used to be treasurer for an organization of professionals.  We had monthly dinner meetings where someone was brought in to do an hour-long presentation on a relevant topic.  Registrations were online with a credit card, but we had one person who insisted on bringing a check to the event.  I was willing to handle that additional hassle each time, but then after she no-showed a few times I put my foot down and said she needed to mail us the check ahead of time and we'd register her after we receive it.  She was a little snarky about that.

I was also amazed at the number of people who registered but didn't attend and then wanted a refund because "it's not my fault I had a family emergency/had to work late/had car trouble/etc."  I'm sorry about that, but it's not our fault either.  You don't think you should have to pay for the dinner we reserved and paid for at your direction; why do you think WE should have to absorb the cost?

Quote from: wanderer2575 on February 24, 2025, 02:34:13 PM

Quote from: JayhawkCO on February 24, 2025, 10:25:13 AMJust seeing this thread. As someone who ran restaurants for years, I side with the business owners every time here. You make policies to prevent you from losing irreplaceable revenue and so should expect your customers to follow them. I had one couple who made reservations for my restaurant every Friday night at 7:00 (aka prime time). There was a two month stretch where they only showed up once and I no-showed them the other seven times. The next time we were calling to confirm reservations the day before, I proceeded to let them know that I wouldn't be accepting their reservation requests due to them not actually showing up for seven of the eight previous Fridays. They pushed back a little bit telling me that I was going to lose their business completely, and I told them, in a moment of less-than-professionalism, that it appeared I already had.

We'd also have private parties book our private rooms, signing contracts and agreeing to a minimum spend and then get grumpy when I'd add a room charge when they didn't meet their minimums. Most of the time I was nice and would let them take home bottles of wine if they were cool about it, but the jerks that weren't? I just met the terms of the contract and got some free revenue.

I agree with this.  Along the same line (but not near the $$ impact that JayhawkCO was dealing with), I used to be treasurer for an organization of professionals.  We had monthly dinner meetings where someone was brought in to do an hour-long presentation on a relevant topic.  Registrations were online with a credit card, but we had one person who insisted on bringing a check to the event.  I was willing to handle that additional hassle each time, but then after she no-showed a few times I put my foot down and said she needed to mail us the check ahead of time and we'd register her after we receive it.  She was a little snarky about that.

I was also amazed at the number of people who registered but didn't attend and then wanted a refund because "it's not my fault I had a family emergency/had to work late/had car trouble/etc."  I'm sorry about that, but it's not our fault either.  You don't think you should have to pay for the dinner we reserved and paid for at your direction; why do you think WE should have to absorb the cost?

My most fun "absorb the cost" story from the last restaurant I ran:

We had this one regular who always made early reservations, specifically requesting one of the most popular tables. Her normal MO would be to sit there with a friend for 3-4 hours, drinking one glass of wine and one appetizer. So, she's clearly not a particularly profitable guest.

One night when I was getting ready to leave, my AGM tells me that this woman wants to talk to me, and I knew she had left over an hour ago so was wondering what was up. Turns out she hadn't finished all of the Brussels sprouts that she ordered and took them to go. But, she had put the container in a bag with some fabric samples that she had borrowed from some company, and the box leaked and got all over the samples. She was expecting me to reimburse her several hundreds of dollars because she made a bad decision. I refused on principle, and obviously wasn't going to make an exception since she wasn't a great guest. She kept threatening to get me fired, etc. because I wouldn't budge. Thankfully, she never returned. Rich people not getting their way was the most common headache I had at that place -- most have never heard someone tell them "no".

Quote from: kphoger on February 24, 2025, 10:13:17 AMThank you, |webny99|, for directing me to this thread.

And thank you for reviving it. I am glad to see that something substantive may come of it.

Quote from: kphoger on February 24, 2025, 10:13:17 AMNo, I think it's you who doesn't understand the purpose of Google reviews. Their purpose is not to strong-arm the business owner into giving in to you demands.  What else could you have meant by "I'd see if anything came of it" than that you wanted your 1-star review to compel the business owner to make the situation better? that you expected them to know it was you who left the review? that you expected them to call you back and make it right?

The overall purpose of Google reviews  has been well established here. Reviews are generally informative and beneficial to the general public in the aggregate, but typically hold very little future value to the reviewer themselves, because in most cases, the reviewer has already visited the business - so they have no reason to care about the business's rating, unless they either love the business so much they want their rating to go up, or hate the business so much they want their rating to go down.

As such, the purpose of an individual review can vary wildly from one review to the next. That purpose is typically - but not always - centered around information sharing - because of course everyone wants to share their experiences. But sometimes businesses offer incentives for reviews too, so someone may place a positive review to earn something they want, or, like in my case, place a negative review in hopes of getting something they want.

You are of course welcome to disagree with the *premise* of using a review for a certain purpose, or simply disagree with using a review for any self-serving purpose that doesn't explicitly benefit the general public (any rating posted without content typically doesn't benefit the public much, except as an aggregation tool, and even then, you can bet those reviews have been heavily incentivized or even "bought" by the business, especially if there's a large number of them). But ultimately, the reviewer themself is the only one who can define the "intention or objective" of a particular review.

See also:

Quote from: webny99 on December 29, 2024, 09:17:13 PMreviews are a fickle and ultimately pretty meaningless tool that everyone uses in their own way for their own reasons.

Quote from: kphoger on February 24, 2025, 10:13:17 AM

QuoteThe guy I spoke to earlier (who turned out to be the owner) was pretty worked up and confused about why I left one star but then rebooked at their other location, and told me that I wasn't welcome for my appointment in the morning because of the review.

I'm not 100% settled on this take, but I think that was unacceptable of him.  A customer should not be refused service just because he or she left a bad review.

I agree, and that's why I pointed up the irony of the fact that, of seven one-star reviews I've written, I have ended up being a repeat customer of three of them. All three responded to my one star review in the same manner: with no response at all. Zip, zero, zilch.

Yes, they chose ignoring the review over contacting me to make the situation better. But importantly, they also chose ignoring the review over contacting me to make the situation worse. And telling a customer they can't return always makes the situation worse. If the customer was unsure, it will sway them towards not returning. And if they had already decided not to return, they're going to be even more sure of their decision, they're more likely to tell others about their bad experience, and they're certainly never going to remove their review. They might even add profanity or threats to the review, or worse.

But if the customer already had active plans to return, I can't even make heads or tails of how they are supposed to respond to being told they can't. I couldn't in the moment, and I still can't now: hence why this thread exists.

Quote from: kphoger on February 24, 2025, 10:13:17 AM

QuoteI've been there four times

QuoteIf you think a business should refuse service to a loyal customer because of a bad review,

You're not a loyal customer.  You've only been there four times.

Let me ask you this: what constitutes loyalty, and how do you measure it?

If four times isn't enough, let me assure you: I would have become a loyal customer over time. I had found a good barber, liked the way he cut my hair, had a good relationship with him, and certainly had no interest in finding a new one. Whatever your threshold for loyalty is, I had every intention of eventually meeting it, and I'd be two trips closer if this incident did not occur.

Quote from: kphoger on February 24, 2025, 10:13:17 AMEither this reply by |jeffandnicole| went unnoticed, or else you have deliberately ignored it.

Neither one, actually. I noticed it, but I wasn't sure if it applied to this barbershop or not, and since I didn't intend to find out, I didn't have anything to add.

Quote from: webny99 on February 24, 2025, 06:21:13 PMAnd telling a customer they can't return always makes the situation worse.

Eh...not always. There's one customer where I work who managed to spend so much time emailing the customer-service staff that management ran the numbers and found out that, when the wages paid to answer his message were deducted from the profit margin made from him, he was actually costing us money. So management told him not to return.

He's since disregarded that and started buying things again. Management said to fulfill the orders but not to otherwise acknowledge he exists. He left a mediocre review complaining about the lack of customer service, and we're definitely selling him fewer products now, but we're at least profiting from him, which we weren't before.

Quote from: webny99 on February 24, 2025, 06:21:13 PMLet me ask you this: what constitutes loyalty, and how do you measure it?

If four times isn't enough, let me assure you: I would have become a loyal customer over time. I had found a good barber, liked the way he cut my hair, had a good relationship with him, and certainly had no interest in finding a new one. Whatever your threshold for loyalty is, I had every intention of eventually meeting it, and I'd be two trips closer if this incident did not occur.

Loyalty is relatively undefined, because your definition of loyalty will probably be different from the owner/barber's loyalty.

For me:  I've been going to the same barbershop since, well, my first haircut.  It's a small 3 chair place.  They know me, I know them.  But I also go about once every 2 months.  The shop has regulars that are there every two weeks.  Maybe even every week.  They're ultra-loyal.  If they're going to do something for a loyal customer, they'll do it for them way before they do it for me.

Another example: A bar near me had a Facebook post a while back.  They get frequent requests to donate for various causes.  The owner tries to donate when he can.  Some get pissed when he doesn't, saying they won't frequent his business.  It's a small town bar.  The owner and bartenders know who often frequent the place.  If any of his customers - even his non-frequent customers - ask for a donation, he'll help them out.  If someone walks in and asks the owner if the owner is in, that's usually not a good start.  The owner isn't worried about losing business from someone who lives 20 minutes away and still has the Google Maps directions open on their phone. He's owned the business longer than the person has been soliciting donations.  He knows it's their first and last time they'll step in the place.

Quote from: Scott5114 on February 24, 2025, 07:13:30 PM

Quote from: webny99 on February 24, 2025, 06:21:13 PMAnd telling a customer they can't return always makes the situation worse.

Eh...not always.

The most obscene example I have of this:  I knew someone who started going to a restaurant, where she would sit at the bar and study.  She would get...a water.  The owner finally told her not to come back. She was pissed, but the place wasn't making a damn dime from her.

Quote from: Scott5114 on February 24, 2025, 07:13:30 PM

Quote from: webny99 on February 24, 2025, 06:21:13 PMAnd telling a customer they can't return always makes the situation worse.

Eh...not always. There's one customer where I work who managed to spend so much time emailing the customer-service staff that management ran the numbers and found out that, when the wages paid to answer his message were deducted from the profit margin made from him, he was actually costing us money. So management told him not to return.

That's fair enough from a business perspective. I meant it makes things worse for the customer, and generally also the relationship. But obviously, the value of a customer relationship varies quite a bit from one business to another... and often even from one customer to another within the same business.

In this case, it's kind of tough to say if the customer is worse off since I don't know what value they were getting from emailing incessantly, but if they're still buying despite being ignored, it must not have been much.

Quote from: webny99 on February 24, 2025, 06:21:13 PM"Purpose" is both a noun and a verb.

The purpose (noun) of Google reviews has been well established.

[...]

As such, the purpose (verb) of an individual review can vary wildly from one review to the next.

[...]

You're using the noun version of purpose in both cases.

It seems like the idea you're trying to convey is retrospective as opposed to prospective.

Either way, your dedication to explaining why you are not wrong is extraordinary.

Quote from: webny99 on February 24, 2025, 06:21:13 PMAs such, the purpose (verb) of an individual review can vary wildly from one review to the next.

That's not how grammar works.  In the phrase "the purpose of an individual review", the word "purpose" is indisputably a noun.  The only verb in your sentence is the verb phrase "can vary".

Quote from: webny99 on February 24, 2025, 06:21:13 PMLet me ask you this: what constitutes loyalty, and how do you measure it?

There's no hard number, and it depends on the type of business.  But four times to a barber is not 'loyalty'.  Loyalty can be measured in different ways, but generally businesses measure it by how long you've been a consistent customer.  I'd posit that four times is barely enough for most barbers to even recognize a customer, let alone consider him to be a loyal customer. 

Quote from: webny99 on February 24, 2025, 06:21:13 PMIf four times isn't enough, let me assure you: I would have become a loyal customer over time ... I had every intention of eventually meeting it,

I don't doubt it.  But the phrase you used was "refuse service to a loyal customer".  Whether you would have become a loyal customer over time is irrelevant:  I stand by my assertion that they did not refuse service to a loyal customer.

Quote from: webny99 on February 24, 2025, 06:21:13 PMAnd telling a customer they can't return always makes the situation worse.

Quote from: webny99 on February 24, 2025, 08:04:18 PMThat's fair enough from a business perspective. I meant it makes things worse for the customer, and generally also the relationship.

That only matters to the business if they even want the person as a customer to begin with.

Quote from: SEWIGuy on February 24, 2025, 12:19:18 PMStrong-arming them through online reviews doesn't help.

See, I just fundamentally disagree that leaving a poor review is "strong-arming" in any context. A single review (especially one without an explanation for the public to read that could influence their decision to do business with that company) simply doesn't affect the business in any meaningful way.

And I knew that. I did it anyways because I figured throwing it in the average would make the average slightly more accurate for others. And it did exactly that, even after changing it to three stars.

Quote from: CtrlAltDel on February 24, 2025, 08:24:23 PMIt seems like the idea you're trying to convey is retrospective as opposed to prospective.

Is that a problem?

Quote from: CtrlAltDel on February 24, 2025, 08:24:23 PMEither way, your dedication to explaining why you are not wrong is extraordinary.

Of course it was wrong to be late for the appointment. I couldn't be in two places at once, so tough choices had to be made. But I have long since moved on from that, and you may have noticed that the current discussion isn't even about that anyways.

Quote from: kphoger on February 24, 2025, 09:49:13 PM

Quote from: webny99 on February 24, 2025, 06:21:13 PMLet me ask you this: what constitutes loyalty, and how do you measure it?

There's no hard number, and it depends on the type of business.  But four times to a barber is not 'loyalty'.  Loyalty can be measured in different ways, but generally businesses measure it by how long you've been a consistent customer.  I'd posit that four times is barely enough for most barbers to even recognize a customer, let alone consider him to be a loyal customer. 

Quote from: webny99 on February 24, 2025, 06:21:13 PMIf four times isn't enough, let me assure you: I would have become a loyal customer over time ... I had every intention of eventually meeting it,

I don't doubt it.  But the phrase you used was "refuse service to a loyal customer".  Whether you would have become a loyal customer over time is irrelevant:  I stand by my assertion that they did not refuse service to a loyal customer.

Ok, fine. I accept that loyalty is conceptual and pretty much impossible to assign a numeric value to, so how about a repeat customer? The specfic number of visits just doesn't make any practical difference here anyways.

And no, the business owner doesn't know me from a load of hay, but my barber knew me plenty well after two visits, not to mention four.

Quote from: kphoger on February 24, 2025, 09:49:13 PMThat only matters to the business if they even want the person as a customer to begin with.

And I totally get it when a business selling to other businesses (B2B), doesn't want to sell to a specific customer.

But I don't get it at all for a service business that is founded and built on relationships with their customers. Telling someone "you are not welcome here" should be extremely rare and require a level of offense that is in a different stratosphere than "left a poor review", regardless of the context of the review or even the content of the review unless it was something veritably false.

Quote from: webny99 on February 24, 2025, 10:40:26 PMAnd I totally get it when a business selling to other businesses (B2B), doesn't want to sell to a specific customer.

But I don't get it at all for a service business that is founded and built on relationships with their customers.

So if you were to come to my city and cheat at blackjack, you "wouldn't get it" if you got kicked out?

Quote from: Scott5114 on February 24, 2025, 10:45:27 PM

Quote from: webny99 on February 24, 2025, 10:40:26 PMAnd I totally get it when a business selling to other businesses (B2B), doesn't want to sell to a specific customer.

But I don't get it at all for a service business that is founded and built on relationships with their customers.

So if you were to come to my city and cheat at blackjack, you "wouldn't get it" if you got kicked out?

Never understood how card counting was cheating, but thought they use a gazillion decks now or whatnot.

...

Of course, my casino visits have been very infrequent over the years...

Quote from: Scott5114 on February 24, 2025, 10:45:27 PM

Quote from: webny99 on February 24, 2025, 10:40:26 PMAnd I totally get it when a business selling to other businesses (B2B), doesn't want to sell to a specific customer.

But I don't get it at all for a service business that is founded and built on relationships with their customers.

So if you were to come to my city and cheat at blackjack, you "wouldn't get it" if you got kicked out?

I don't know much of anything about blackjack but I would consider cheating at anything to be a much greater offense than leaving a poor review.. and also one that has very obvious consequences if you get caught.

I mean really, applying the concept of being "caught" to reviews is laughable. Newark Airport has almost 10,000 one star reviews. I wonder how many of those people are spending their days in fear of lifetime relegation to LaGuardia.

Quote from: webny99 on February 24, 2025, 10:14:17 PM

Quote from: CtrlAltDel on February 24, 2025, 08:24:23 PMIt seems like the idea you're trying to convey is retrospective as opposed to prospective.

Is that a problem?

Of course not, I was just attempting to clarify your thoughts, since your discussion of nouns and verbs was inaccurate.

Quote from: webny99 on February 24, 2025, 10:14:17 PM

Quote from: CtrlAltDel on February 24, 2025, 08:24:23 PMEither way, your dedication to explaining why you are not wrong is extraordinary.

Of course it was wrong to be late for the appointment. I couldn't be in two places at once, so tough choices had to be made. But I have long since moved on from that, and you may have noticed that the current discussion isn't even about that anyways.

I have.

Quote from: webny99 on February 24, 2025, 10:07:20 PM

Quote from: SEWIGuy on February 24, 2025, 12:19:18 PMStrong-arming them through online reviews doesn't help.

See, I just fundamentally disagree that leaving a poor review is "strong-arming" in any context. A single review (especially one without an explanation for the public to read that could influence their decision to do business with that company) simply doesn't affect the business in any meaningful way.

And I knew that. I did it anyways because I figured throwing it in the average would make the average slightly more accurate for others. And it did exactly that, even after changing it to three stars.

But you were in the wrong. You violated their policy and then complained when they enforced it. 

And it's cute that you think there is "accuracy" in on line reviews.

Quote from: CtrlAltDel on February 24, 2025, 08:24:23 PMYou're using the noun version of purpose in both cases.

Quote from: kphoger on February 24, 2025, 09:49:13 PMThat's not how grammar works.  In the phrase "the purpose of an individual review", the word "purpose" is indisputably a noun.  The only verb in your sentence is the verb phrase "can vary".

You're both right, of course. It made sense when I started writing, but by the time I'd finished, my usage of the second one had morphed back into a noun, and I never came back to double check myself. But that was never important to the distinction I was making, which was:

1) Purpose (the reason for existence) of Google reviews vs.
2) Purpose (intention or objective) of an individual review.


Here is the revised post:

Quote from: webny99 on February 24, 2025, 06:21:13 PMThe overall purpose of Google reviews  has been well established here. Reviews are generally informative and beneficial to the general public in the aggregate, but typically hold very little future value to the reviewer themselves, because in most cases, the reviewer has already visited the business - so they have no reason to care about the business's rating, unless they either love the business so much they want their rating to go up, or hate the business so much they want their rating to go down.

As such, the purpose of an individual review can vary wildly from one review to the next. That purpose is typically - but not always - centered around information sharing - because of course everyone wants to share their experiences. But sometimes businesses offer incentives for reviews too, so someone may place a positive review to earn something they want, or, like in my case, place a negative review in hopes of getting something they want.

You are of course welcome to disagree with the *premise* of using a review for a certain purpose, or simply disagree with using a review for any self-serving purpose that doesn't explicitly benefit the general public (any rating posted without content typically doesn't benefit the public much, except as an aggregation tool, and even then, you can bet those reviews have been heavily incentivized or even "bought" by the business, especially if there's a large number of them). But ultimately, the reviewer themself is the only one who can define the "intention or objective" of a particular review.

Quote from: SEWIGuy on February 25, 2025, 04:44:06 AMAnd it's cute that you think there is "accuracy" in on line reviews.

Riddle me this: if you accept the premise that online reviews are inaccurate, why is it such a big deal that my review was (in your view) inaccurate?

The only possible conclusion is that you appreciate and accept that everyone else can leave inaccurate reviews all they want, but my reviews must always be the gold standard of perfection.

And that's fine. I appreciate being held to a high standard. But I won't continue arguing about it if there's going to be a double standard.

Moving on...

Quote from: wanderer2575 on February 24, 2025, 02:34:13 PMI was also amazed at the number of people who registered but didn't attend and then wanted a refund because "it's not my fault I had a family emergency/had to work late/had car trouble/etc."  I'm sorry about that, but it's not our fault either.  You don't think you should have to pay for the dinner we reserved and paid for at your direction; why do you think WE should have to absorb the cost?

If you don't mind me asking, what sort of size was the event? I ask because if it was small (say 20-30 people or less) you're obviously taking a loss to refund no-shows. But if it was a large event (say 100+ people), a certain number of no-shows are probably expected, so maybe that could have been factored into the cost of the event, either by ordering less food to account for them or just accepting a certain percentage of no shows as part of the cost.

Quote from: JayhawkCO on February 24, 2025, 02:44:34 PMOne night when I was getting ready to leave, my AGM tells me that this woman wants to talk to me, and I knew she had left over an hour ago so was wondering what was up. Turns out she hadn't finished all of the Brussels sprouts that she ordered and took them to go. But, she had put the container in a bag with some fabric samples that she had borrowed from some company, and the box leaked and got all over the samples. She was expecting me to reimburse her several hundreds of dollars because she made a bad decision. I refused on principle, and obviously wasn't going to make an exception since she wasn't a great guest. She kept threatening to get me fired, etc. because I wouldn't budge. Thankfully, she never returned.

Wow. Had she spent hundreds of dollars at the restaurant or was she expecting reimbursement for the carpet samples? Putting perishable food in a purse is a terrible idea, so it seems kind of absurd to involve the restaurant in that situation. I can maybe see a "bad packaging" argument, but even that is a big stretch, because what kind of food packaging is immune from being bounced around in a purse long enough? Thanks for sharing, that is just bizarre all around.

Quote from: jeffandnicole on February 24, 2025, 07:37:11 PMThe most obscene example I have of this:  I knew someone who started going to a restaurant, where she would sit at the bar and study.  She would get...a water.  The owner finally told her not to come back. She was pissed, but the place wasn't making a damn dime from her.

This is one where I can see both sides. It kind of depends on the nature of the restaurant, the image they want to portray, and whether or not her presence was a disruption. There are some places, like Starbucks, that welcome and invite people to come and work and even have extra seating just for that purpose. Sure they're expecting them to buy something, but I don't think they'd kick them out if they weren't. A crowded bar where she's constantly taking a seat from a profitable customer during a busy time is obviously a different story.

Quote from: webny99 on February 24, 2025, 10:07:20 PMI just fundamentally disagree that leaving a poor review is "strong-arming" in any context.

How can you say that with a straight face, when your stated purpose in leaving the poor review was to "see if anything came of it", and when you later explicitly defined the "anything" as "getting something [you wanted]"?

You left your poor review for the intended purpose of getting the business owner to give you what you wanted.  That's strong-arming them.

Quote from: webny99 on December 29, 2024, 01:53:11 PMI dumped a one star review on Google and figured I'd see if anything came of it.

Quote from: webny99 on February 24, 2025, 06:21:13 PMlike in my case, place a negative review in hopes of getting something they want.

---

Quote from: webny99 on February 24, 2025, 10:14:17 PMI couldn't be in two places at once, so tough choices had to be made.

It's not really a "tough choice" to make, if you expect to have no repercussions for your decision.  You wanted to have your cake and eat it too, then threw a Google review hissy-fit when they said no.

Quote from: webny99 on February 24, 2025, 10:40:26 PMI accept that loyalty is conceptual and pretty much impossible to assign a numeric value to, so how about a repeat customer? The specific number of visits just doesn't make any practical difference here anyways.

The specific number of visits absolutely makes a difference.  The expectation of special treatment because you're a repeat/loyal customer should be judged as either reasonable or unreasonable based on the extent to which you are in fact a repeat/loyal customer, and the number of times you've patronized the business is a large part of that definition.  If you had been going there monthly for ten years solid, then you'd have much more right to expect them to bend over backwards for you.

Quote from: webny99 on February 24, 2025, 10:40:26 PMTelling someone "you are not welcome here" should be extremely rare and require a level of offense that is in a different stratosphere than "left a poor review", regardless of the context of the review or even the content of the review unless it was something veritably false.

Why should any review, ever, be evaluated "regardless of the context ... or even the content"?  That makes no sense to me.

You were a customer who made it publicly known to all the world that the business was awful, then you expected special treatment from them because of your loyalty.  That's precisely the sort of customer a business might want to make unwelcome.

Quote from: webny99 on February 25, 2025, 09:20:12 AM

Quote from: JayhawkCO on February 24, 2025, 02:44:34 PMOne night when I was getting ready to leave, my AGM tells me that this woman wants to talk to me, and I knew she had left over an hour ago so was wondering what was up. Turns out she hadn't finished all of the Brussels sprouts that she ordered and took them to go. But, she had put the container in a bag with some fabric samples that she had borrowed from some company, and the box leaked and got all over the samples. She was expecting me to reimburse her several hundreds of dollars because she made a bad decision. I refused on principle, and obviously wasn't going to make an exception since she wasn't a great guest. She kept threatening to get me fired, etc. because I wouldn't budge. Thankfully, she never returned.

Wow. Had she spent hundreds of dollars at the restaurant or was she expecting reimbursement for the carpet samples? Putting perishable food in a purse is a terrible idea, so it seems kind of absurd to involve the restaurant in that situation. I can maybe see a "bad packaging" argument, but even that is a big stretch, because what kind of food packaging is immune from being bounced around in a purse long enough? Thanks for sharing, that is just bizarre all around.

Her tab was $60 or so, which was normal for her 3-4 hour adventures at the restaurant. (For scale, a normal party of two that were in and out in two hours was around $150-$160 on average.) I'd take the "bad packaging" argument had she not seen how the food was packaged before placing it in her bag.

I also had a woman once complain that she was given brown avocados on her to-go salad when she came back two hours after we gave it two her. I politely explained oxidation.

Quote from: webny99 on February 25, 2025, 08:41:09 AM

Quote from: SEWIGuy on February 25, 2025, 04:44:06 AMAnd it's cute that you think there is "accuracy" in on line reviews.

Riddle me this: if you accept the premise that online reviews are inaccurate, why is it such a big deal that my review was (in your view) inaccurate?

The only possible conclusion is that you appreciate and accept that everyone else can leave inaccurate reviews all they want, but my reviews must always be the gold standard of perfection.

And that's fine. I appreciate being held to a high standard. But I won't continue arguing about it if there's going to be a double standard.

I have never left a review in my life.

Quote from: SEWIGuy on February 25, 2025, 11:52:09 AM

Quote from: webny99 on February 25, 2025, 08:41:09 AM

Quote from: SEWIGuy on February 25, 2025, 04:44:06 AMAnd it's cute that you think there is "accuracy" in on line reviews.

Riddle me this: if you accept the premise that online reviews are inaccurate, why is it such a big deal that my review was (in your view) inaccurate?

The only possible conclusion is that you appreciate and accept that everyone else can leave inaccurate reviews all they want, but my reviews must always be the gold standard of perfection.

And that's fine. I appreciate being held to a high standard. But I won't continue arguing about it if there's going to be a double standard.

I have never left a review in my life.

Well if you start, they'd be more accurate.  :awesomeface:

Quote from: kphoger on February 25, 2025, 09:33:53 AM

QuoteI couldn't be in two places at once, so tough choices had to be made.

It's not really a "tough choice" to make, if you expect to have no repercussions for your decision.  You wanted to have your cake and eat it too

Having my cake and eating it too would have been finishing my work and being on time to my appointment. That ended up not being possible, hence why the "choice" (be on time to the appointment but leave work unfinished, or finish work and be late to the appointment) had to be made. And of course there were going to be repercussions either way.

Quote from: kphoger on February 25, 2025, 09:33:53 AMYou left your poor review for the intended purpose of getting the business owner to give you what you wanted.  That's strong-arming them.

No, it's not. In fact, it doesn't come close. It's not using force or violence, and it didn't inherently have any impact on them or their business at all. Responding to a poor review was their choice. They were by no means required or obligated to respond in any manner. Whether I wanted them to respond is completely irrelevant. There was zero obligation on their part.


But if you want to talk about what might actually be strong-arming, sure: telling a customer they are not welcome for an appointment they have already booked because they left a poor review comes pretty close to strong-arming, because I absolutely had to respond: if I didn't respond, I would have had to book a new appointment and find a new barber, the day before a holiday weekend, potentially upending my schedule for the next 24-48 hours, and also risk not getting my hair cut when I needed it by. Or, you know, I could delete my poor review, despite being increasingly certain that it was valid after all. If you don't think there's an element of "force" on the business owner's part here, think a little more carefully.

Quote from: kphoger on February 25, 2025, 09:33:53 AM

QuoteTelling someone "you are not welcome here" should be extremely rare and require a level of offense that is in a different stratosphere than "left a poor review", regardless of the context of the review or even the content of the review unless it was something veritably false.

Why should any review, ever, be evaluated "regardless of the context ... or even the content"?  That makes no sense to me.

I didn't mean that they should be evaluated regardless of the context or content. I meant that there is no context in which a review would rise to the level of banning a customer, with only very limited exceptions (such as falsehoods or threats).

Quote from: webny99 on February 25, 2025, 12:50:32 PMHaving my cake and eating it too would have been finishing my work and being on time to my appointment.

Having your cake and eating it too would be missing your appointment and not being out any money.  After they charged you for the missed appointment, a charge which you had already "very reluctantly accepted", you left a one-star review in response.  You clearly expected to be able to leave work late (eating your cake) and also keep all your money (having your cake).

Quote from: webny99 on February 25, 2025, 12:50:32 PMNo, it's not. In fact, it doesn't come close. It's not using force or violence, and it didn't inherently have any impact on them or their business at all.

Do you honestly believe that a lower Google rating doesn't negatively affect a business?

Quote from: webny99 on February 25, 2025, 12:50:32 PMtelling a customer they are not welcome for an appointment they have already booked because they left a poor review comes pretty close to strong-arming,

I already said I think they were wrong to do that, if only tentatively.

But on the other hand, you had already publicly shamed them as a one-star business just because they didn't refund your money when you missed your appointment—and even though they had managed to book you a new appointment the very next morning.  That is to say, they had conducted normal business in everything leading up to that point, and your response was to leave a one-star review.  Why would they expect any better from you in the future?

Quote from: webny99 on February 25, 2025, 12:50:32 PMI absolutely had to respond: if I didn't respond, I would have had to book a new appointment and find a new barber, the day before a holiday weekend, potentially upending my schedule for the next 24-48 hours, and also risk not getting my hair cut when I needed it by. Or, you know, I could delete my poor review, despite being increasingly certain that it was valid after all. If you don't think there's an element of "force" on the business owner's part here, think a little more carefully.

It sounds like you had several options, one of which was to accept the loss and not get your hair cut till later on.  Obviously you didn't like that option, but it was an option.

Quote from: Rothman on February 24, 2025, 10:58:53 PMNever understood how card counting was cheating, but thought they use a gazillion decks now or whatnot.

Technically, it's not. But the casino has the right to refuse service to anyone like any other business...and if you're counting you're not a profitable customer.

Quote from: webny99 on February 24, 2025, 11:17:03 PMI don't know much of anything about blackjack but I would consider cheating at anything to be a much greater offense than leaving a poor review.. and also one that has very obvious consequences if you get caught.

Either way, you're negatively impacting the business's profitability, and the business has the right to take steps to ensure that you do not continue to do so.

Quote from: webny99 on February 25, 2025, 12:50:32 PMI meant that there is no context in which a review would rise to the level of banning a customer, with only very limited exceptions (such as falsehoods or threats).

Look at it this way:  you are only one customer, but your one-star review might turn away two potential new customers.  You are now a net loss to them.  Why should they be obligated to keep doing business with a customer who is a net loss to them?

Quote from: kphoger on February 25, 2025, 01:24:36 PMHaving your cake and eating it too would be missing your appointment and not being out any money.  After they charged you for the missed appointment, a charge which you had already "very reluctantly accepted", you left a one-star review in response.  You clearly expected to be able to leave work late (eating your cake) and also keep all your money (having your cake).

Slight correction... I expected to be late to my appointment and not be out any additional money over and above the cost of the haircut. The possibility of paying for the service without receiving anything never occurred to me beforehand (you could argue it should have, but it didn't). Had I predicted this outcome, I obviously would have adjusted my schedule earlier in the day, or just not answered the phone and showed up in hopes that they could fit me in somehow.

Quote from: kphoger on February 25, 2025, 01:24:36 PMDo you honestly believe that a lower Google rating doesn't negatively affect a business?

I honestly believe that a single review's contribution to their Google rating does not negatively affect them in any meaningful way, especially when it is just a "rating" with no "review".

Quote from: kphoger on February 25, 2025, 01:24:36 PMyou had already publicly shamed them as a one-star business

Quote from: kphoger on February 25, 2025, 09:33:53 AMyou were a customer who made it publicly known to all the world that the business was awful,

Quote from: kphoger on February 25, 2025, 01:31:31 PMyou are only one customer, but your one-star review might turn away two potential new customers.

You're falling into the same trap that the business owner did. You're blowing the poor review WAY out of proportion relative to its true value. It's one review of hundreds, and I didn't even say anything negative about the business. In the grand scheme of things, that one review hardly budged their rating. And a single low rating with no explanation is certainly not going to cost them any new customers. If anything, potential customers will write it off and skip right past it to the reviews with stories or detailed explanations of the services offered. That one review is a hair's breadth away from being entirely meaningless, and to say otherwise is a major overreaction.

The argument that I am automatically a "net loss" as a customer because I left a poor rating is so far removed from reality that it's beyond comprehension. That's also assuming that I had no past or future net positive value to them - which is also so far removed from reality that it's beyond comprehension. They were profitable on my first four visits, and would have certainly retained me as a customer and continued to be profitable on future visits had they not overreacted to the review.

Quote from: webny99 on February 25, 2025, 04:43:41 PMSlight correction... I expected to be late to my appointment and not be out any additional money over and above the cost of the haircut.

You weren't, were you?  You described the no-show fee as "full price" and "almost $30".  Isn't that the cost of a haircut?  Or is it more than the cost of a haircut?

The fact that you scheduled a new appointment the next day doesn't negate the fact that you missed your appointment on Friday.  They charged you the cost of a haircut, and you made a new appointment.

And yes, being late to an appointment is missing the appointment.

Quote from: webny99 on February 25, 2025, 04:43:41 PMThe possibility of paying for the service without receiving anything never occurred to me beforehand (you could argue it should have, but it didn't).

I suppose it should have occurred to you.  But then, you didn't even know they had a way of getting the money from you.

Quote from: webny99 on February 25, 2025, 04:43:41 PMI honestly believe that a single review's contribution to their Google rating does not negatively affect them in any meaningful way, especially when it is just a "rating" with no "review" ... You're falling into the same trap that the business owner did. You're blowing the poor review WAY out of proportion relative to its true value. It's one review of hundreds, and I didn't even say anything negative about the business. In the grand scheme of things, that one review hardly budged their rating. And a single low rating with no explanation is certainly not going to cost them any new customers. If anything, potential customers will write it off and skip right past it to the reviews with stories or detailed explanations of the services offered. That one review is a hair's breadth away from being entirely meaningless, and to say otherwise is a major overreaction.

Hardly.  Personally, when I look at Google reviews, I sort them by "most recent".  If I had been looking for a barber shortly after you left that one-star review, then I certainly would have taken your rating into account when deciding where to go.  I do of course give more consideration to bad ratings with comments than to bad ratings with no comments, but I do give both consideration—especially when they're recent.

Quote from: kphoger on February 25, 2025, 04:57:34 PMYou described the no-show fee as "full price" and "almost $30".  Isn't that the cost of a haircut?  Or is it more than the cost of a haircut?

It's exactly the cost of a haircut, but 100% of it was "additional money over and above the cost of the haircut" because I still had to pay the money I was expecting to pay when I actually got my hair cut the following day.

Quote from: kphoger on February 25, 2025, 04:57:34 PMbeing late to an appointment is missing the appointment.

As currently worded, I disagree. If I had been less than say 7 or 8 minutes late, I would have been in the chair getting my hair cut before they even called. If I had been just a minute or two late, they probably wouldn't have even noticed. I may have even had to wait for the barber.

If you added the word "time" to the end of this statement, then I would agree.

Quote from: Scott5114 on February 24, 2025, 10:45:27 PMSo if you were to come to my city and cheat at blackjack, you "wouldn't get it" if you got kicked out?

Have some fun and split 10s on occasion.  That'll throw them off.

Quote from: Rothman on February 24, 2025, 10:58:53 PMNever understood how card counting was cheating, but thought they use a gazillion decks now or whatnot.

They use a continuous shuffle machine now, so regardless the number of decks they can immediately input the cards just played.

Quote from: webny99 on February 25, 2025, 09:20:12 AM

Quote from: jeffandnicole on February 24, 2025, 07:37:11 PMThe most obscene example I have of this:  I knew someone who started going to a restaurant, where she would sit at the bar and study.  She would get...a water.  The owner finally told her not to come back. She was pissed, but the place wasn't making a damn dime from her.

This is one where I can see both sides. It kind of depends on the nature of the restaurant, the image they want to portray, and whether or not her presence was a disruption. There are some places, like Starbucks, that welcome and invite people to come and work and even have extra seating just for that purpose. Sure they're expecting them to buy something, but I don't think they'd kick them out if they weren't. A crowded bar where she's constantly taking a seat from a profitable customer during a busy time is obviously a different story.

Re: Starbucks.  No more.  https://www.cbsnews.com/news/starbucks-open-door-policy-reversal-purchase-now-required/

As far as any other place goes: They're in business to sell stuff.  There's no 2 sides to it. If you're a *loyal* customer and stop by once to study, sure, the staff who knows you well probably won't say a thing.  Start doing it on a regular basis, and, oops, suddenly that staff loyalty becomes a bit frayed when they see themselves babysitting someone no longer buying stuff from the business.

Quote from: jeffandnicole on February 25, 2025, 05:47:30 PMHave some fun and split 10s on occasion.  That'll throw them off.

Maybe at El Cortez... Anywhere else, that's too expensive for me to have much fun with.  :-D

Quote from: jeffandnicole on February 25, 2025, 05:47:30 PMThey use a continuous shuffle machine now, so regardless the number of decks they can immediately input the cards just played.

Depends on the table. A decent number of players refuse to play on a continuous-shuffler table (not even necessarily because they're counting, some just perceive that they lose more), so casinos are forced to spread a few games with a traditional shoe. Your casual players don't know the difference, but the regulars that are there blowing money every week are what keep the lights on so you have to accommodate for them. Some casinos still even run pitch games (one or two decks, dealt manually). Usually these type of games will have lower limits or the dreaded 6:5 payout to try and discourage you from playing them.

Personally I prefer shoe games just because the break at the end of the shoe for a shuffle adds some rhythm to the game that's missing on a continuous shuffler table.

Quote from: webny99 on February 25, 2025, 12:50:32 PMNo, it's not. In fact, it doesn't come close. It's not using force or violence, and it didn't inherently have any impact on them or their business at all. Responding to a poor review was their choice. They were by no means required or obligated to respond in any manner. Whether I wanted them to respond is completely irrelevant. There was zero obligation on their part.


But if you want to talk about what might actually be strong-arming, sure: telling a customer they are not welcome for an appointment they have already booked because they left a poor review comes pretty close to strong-arming, because I absolutely had to respond: if I didn't respond, I would have had to book a new appointment and find a new barber, the day before a holiday weekend, potentially upending my schedule for the next 24-48 hours, and also risk not getting my hair cut when I needed it by. Or, you know, I could delete my poor review, despite being increasingly certain that it was valid after all. If you don't think there's an element of "force" on the business owner's part here, think a little more carefully.

Honestly you sound like a customer that I wouldn't want to deal with either.

Quote from: Scott5114 on February 25, 2025, 06:01:57 PM

Quote from: jeffandnicole on February 25, 2025, 05:47:30 PMHave some fun and split 10s on occasion.  That'll throw them off.

Maybe at El Cortez... Anywhere else, that's too expensive for me to have much fun with.  :-D

Quote from: jeffandnicole on February 25, 2025, 05:47:30 PMThey use a continuous shuffle machine now, so regardless the number of decks they can immediately input the cards just played.

Depends on the table. A decent number of players refuse to play on a continuous-shuffler table (not even necessarily because they're counting, some just perceive that they lose more), so casinos are forced to spread a few games with a traditional shoe. Your casual players don't know the difference, but the regulars that are there blowing money every week are what keep the lights on so you have to accommodate for them. Some casinos still even run pitch games (one or two decks, dealt manually). Usually these type of games will have lower limits or the dreaded 6:5 payout to try and discourage you from playing them.

Personally I prefer shoe games just because the break at the end of the shoe for a shuffle adds some rhythm to the game that's missing on a continuous shuffler table.

I was going to Vegas when they were 'testing' 6:5 BJ.  Now from what I gather it's almost impossible to find a 3:2 table for less than $25 or $50 most places on the Strip.

Quote from: jeffandnicole on February 25, 2025, 07:06:16 PMI was going to Vegas when they were 'testing' 6:5 BJ.  Now from what I gather it's almost impossible to find a 3:2 table for less than $25 or $50 most places on the Strip.

You can't find a table at all for less than $25 on the Strip. Gotta go to Fremont for that. (And even the $25 tables are 6:5.)

Quote from: SEWIGuy on February 25, 2025, 06:10:29 PM

QuoteNo, it's not. In fact, it doesn't come close. It's not using force or violence, and it didn't inherently have any impact on them or their business at all. Responding to a poor review was their choice. They were by no means required or obligated to respond in any manner. Whether I wanted them to respond is completely irrelevant. There was zero obligation on their part.


But if you want to talk about what might actually be strong-arming, sure: telling a customer they are not welcome for an appointment they have already booked because they left a poor review comes pretty close to strong-arming, because I absolutely had to respond: if I didn't respond, I would have had to book a new appointment and find a new barber, the day before a holiday weekend, potentially upending my schedule for the next 24-48 hours, and also risk not getting my hair cut when I needed it by. Or, you know, I could delete my poor review, despite being increasingly certain that it was valid after all. If you don't think there's an element of "force" on the business owner's part here, think a little more carefully.

Honestly you sound like a customer that I wouldn't want to deal with either.

Yeah, you already made that clear.

But we will forgive you for repeating yourself because at least we can now chuckle about the certified Most Whopping Non-Sequitur Of All Time™.

Quote from: kphoger on February 25, 2025, 04:57:34 PMPersonally, when I look at Google reviews, I sort them by "most recent".  If I had been looking for a barber shortly after you left that one-star review, then I certainly would have taken your rating into account when deciding where to go.  I do of course give more consideration to bad ratings with comments than to bad ratings with no comments, but I do give both consideration—especially when they're recent.

I'm curious to know if others here sort and analyze reviews in this manner too, or if not, how they sort and analyze them and why.


I thought of this last night when... stay with me here... there was a crash (https://13wham.com/news/local/driver-partially-ejected-from-pickup-truck-after-crash-on-interstate-490-rochester-new-york-state-police-nysp) on I-490 between Exits 19 and 20, which happened to be the third crash on that exact segment in the past week. I got to thinking that, if someone blew in from outer space (or, you know, even just out of town) a week ago and had no previous context, they'd probably think that was a treacherous, high risk stretch of highway that should be avoided. In reality, it does have accidents on occasion, but historically, it's not significantly more dangerous than any other stretch of highway in the area, and I probably wouldn't even put it in the top 5 crash-prone freeway segments.

But if one only had the recent data, one could end up coming to a biased conclusion. I know that having knowledge of three crashes in one week is still informative. It could even be an indicator of changing traffic patterns that could change future accident rate projections. And I certainly understand that this doesn't necessarily have a one to one application to Google reviews or any other review platform. But I'm putting it out there anyways because I figured it was food for thought.

---

PS: In an effort to broaden discussion and move on from my original anecdote, I have changed the subject title to "Customer Service Policies"

I think you understand where I'm coming from, then.  In general, I consider the most recent reviews to be the ones that most accurately reflect what the business is like now.  A good or bad review from five years ago doesn't matter a whole lot to me because, not only might they have gotten better or worse since then, but who knows if it's even the same management anymore.

Quote from: webny99 on March 06, 2025, 08:58:47 AM

Quote from: kphoger on February 25, 2025, 04:57:34 PMPersonally, when I look at Google reviews, I sort them by "most recent".  If I had been looking for a barber shortly after you left that one-star review, then I certainly would have taken your rating into account when deciding where to go.  I do of course give more consideration to bad ratings with comments than to bad ratings with no comments, but I do give both consideration—especially when they're recent.

I'm curious to know if others here sort and analyze reviews in this manner too, or if not, how they sort and analyze them and why.


I thought of this last night when... stay with me here... there was a crash (https://13wham.com/news/local/driver-partially-ejected-from-pickup-truck-after-crash-on-interstate-490-rochester-new-york-state-police-nysp) on I-490 between Exits 19 and 20, which happened to be the third crash on that exact segment in the past week. I got to thinking that, if someone blew in from outer space (or, you know, even just out of town) a week ago and had no previous context, they'd probably think that was a treacherous, high risk stretch of highway that should be avoided. In reality, it does have accidents on occasion, but historically, it's not significantly more dangerous than any other stretch of highway in the area, and I probably wouldn't even put it in the top 5 crash-prone freeway segments.

But if one only had the recent data, one could end up coming to a biased conclusion. I know that having knowledge of three crashes in one week is still informative. It could even be an indicator of changing traffic patterns that could change future accident rate projections. And I certainly understand that this doesn't necessarily have a one to one application to Google reviews or any other review platform. But I'm putting it out there anyways because I figured it was food for thought.

---

PS: In an effort to broaden discussion and move on from my original anecdote, I have changed the subject title to "Customer Service Policies"

As with anything, the plural of anecdote is not data. There is nuance to all things, so if I'm planning on spending a decent amount of money on something, I'll research it thoroughly and read a lot of reviews, not just the first presented to me, and not just the most recent either. That said, for some things I will weight more recent reviews more heavily.

An easy example. I lived in Seattle for one year back in 2006-2007 and I worked at a really good restaurant there that was known for being one of the best in town. We were always insanely busy and it was one of those places where it was difficult to get a reservation. Reviews of this restaurant were pretty universally high. Last time I was in Seattle, I took my wife there and was really depressed to see the state of the place. The exact same decor was there, lots of it dirty and chipped/dinged. The food wasn't particularly great either. I happened to see one of the managers there and remembered him from my time working there -- he was one of the worst servers at the time. I glanced at Google reviews and noticed it was all the way down to a 4.1 and a lot of the recent reviews mentioned the same things I saw. If you were looking and saw 4.1, you'd think, "hey, that place has to be above average", but given that it used to be at a 4.8 or so, you now know the current state.

Quote from: kphoger on March 06, 2025, 10:40:03 AMI think you understand where I'm coming from, then.  In general, I consider the most recent reviews to be the ones that most accurately reflect what the business is like now.  A good or bad review from five years ago doesn't matter a whole lot to me because, not only might they have gotten better or worse since then, but who knows if it's even the same management anymore.

I actually also look to see if a poor review is an outlier - perhaps written by someone who has trouble dealing being late and having the place actually enforce their stated policy for being late.

Quote from: SEWIGuy on March 06, 2025, 10:54:32 AMI actually also look to see if a poor review is an outlier - perhaps written by someone who has trouble dealing being late and having the place actually enforce their stated policy for being late.

Absolutely.  You can usually tell the difference between someone who is impossible to please or a true problem customer, someone who appears unable to grasp the fact that some things are beyond the company's control, someone whose problem was likely to be a rare occurrence, and someone whose bad review is actually worth taking into consideration.

Quote from: SEWIGuy on March 06, 2025, 10:54:32 AMI actually also look to see if a poor review is an outlier

I hope you do the same thing for positive reviews, because many businesses heavily incentivize positive reviews.

Quote from: kphoger on March 06, 2025, 11:07:20 AMYou can usually tell the difference between someone who is impossible to please or a true problem customer, someone who appears unable to grasp the fact that some things are beyond the company's control, someone whose problem was likely to be a rare occurrence, and someone whose bad review is actually worth taking into consideration.

A rating posted without a review doesn't tell you any of those things. In fact, it doesn't tell you much of anything.

Quote from: kphoger on March 06, 2025, 11:07:20 AMYou can usually tell the difference between someone who is impossible to please or a true problem customer, someone who appears unable to grasp the fact that some things are beyond the company's control, someone whose problem was likely to be a rare occurrence, and someone whose bad review is actually worth taking into consideration.

Quote from: webny99 on March 06, 2025, 11:57:18 AMA rating posted without a review doesn't tell you any of those things. In fact, it doesn't tell you much of anything.

Correct.  Your one-star review, therefore, leads one to believe you think the business is truly awful, but without any additional information that might lead one to treat your review as an outlier or otherwise worth disregarding.

Quote from: JayhawkCO on March 06, 2025, 10:51:17 AMIf you were looking and saw 4.1, you'd think, "hey, that place has to be above average",

I wouldn't. 4.1 is closer to what you might expect for an average fast casual or fast food joint, but below average to poor for a good restaurant, especially a high end one.

For comparison, my local Wendy's is also currently rated 4.1 stars... and that's Wendy's. You know what you're getting, but the level of expectations are very different from a restaurant where you'd expect to spend $50+. Meanwhile, Black & Blue Steak and Crab, a fairly high-end restaurant in Pittsford, is currently rated 4.6 stars.

Quote from: webny99 on March 06, 2025, 12:15:22 PM

Quote from: JayhawkCO on March 06, 2025, 10:51:17 AMIf you were looking and saw 4.1, you'd think, "hey, that place has to be above average",

I wouldn't. 4.1 is closer to what you might expect for an average fast casual or fast food joint, but below average to poor for a good restaurant, especially a high end one.

For comparison, my local Wendy's is also currently rated 4.1 stars... and that's Wendy's. You know what you're getting, but the level of expectations are very different from a restaurant where you'd expect to spend $50+. Meanwhile, Black & Blue Steak and Crab, a fairly high-end restaurant in Pittsford, is currently rated 4.6 stars.

To this day, I can't imagine taking time to rate a Wendy's on Google. It's fuckin' Wendy's.

Quote from: webny99 on March 06, 2025, 11:57:18 AM

Quote from: SEWIGuy on March 06, 2025, 10:54:32 AMI actually also look to see if a poor review is an outlier

I hope you do the same thing for positive reviews, because many businesses heavily incentivize positive reviews.

Of course!

I usually filter Google Maps locations by 4 stars and above, 3.5 stars only if I really really have to.  Anything below 3.5 stars on Google is going to be really sketchy.  Below 3 stars, and reading the reviews should be done for entertainment purposes more than anything.

Quote from: kphoger on March 06, 2025, 12:11:48 PM

QuoteA rating posted without a review doesn't tell you any of those things. In fact, it doesn't tell you much of anything.

Correct.  Your one-star review, therefore, leads one to believe you think the business is truly awful, but without any additional information that might lead one to treat your review as an outlier or otherwise worth disregarding.

Serious question: is that a problem?

Quote from: webny99 on March 06, 2025, 12:30:39 PMSerious question: is that a problem?

If you want people to not patronize that business, then no.  But if that wasn't your intention, then yes.

Quote from: JayhawkCO on March 06, 2025, 12:16:51 PMTo this day, I can't imagine taking time to rate a Wendy's on Google.

I'm actually going to contradict myself just a bit here: while this is true, there is some degree of variance from one fast food location to another. I've been to the 4.1 star Wendy's location a number of times, and it's always met/exceeded my expectations, with perfect order accuracy, fairly quick service, and no quality concerns besides, you know, it's Wendy's.

Upon checking now, most other Wendy's in my area are rated in the 3.4 to 3.9 range, so I think the 4.1 rating is reflective of that.

Oh yeah, there's a Wendy's location I can think of, across the street from a large hospital, that does an excellent job of processing orders quickly and accurately.  At least, it did before COVID;  we haven't been back more than once or twice since then to know if they're still rock stars.

Quote from: kphoger on March 06, 2025, 12:28:08 PMI usually filter Google Maps locations by 4 stars and above, 3.5 stars only if I really really have to.  Anything below 3.5 stars on Google is going to be really sketchy.  Below 3 stars, and reading the reviews should be done for entertainment purposes more than anything.

It does also depend on the type of establishment being reviewed. Some places get review-bombed, and those are usually very entertaining to read. And some low-rated places are preferably avoided but essential, such as most airports and train stations.

Quote from: kphoger on March 06, 2025, 12:42:56 PM

QuoteSerious question: is that a problem?

If you want people to not patronize that business, then no.  But if that wasn't your intention, then yes.

Except that (1) I don't care at all if others patronize the business or not, and (2) I don't think an individual rating has much impact on whether they will or not, nor should it.

Quote from: webny99 on March 06, 2025, 12:57:18 PMAnd some low-rated places are preferably avoided but essential, such as most airports and train stations.

Headquarters of places (e.g. National Grid, Xfinity) often get low reviews. Some of them are legitimate (bad customer service call), while others are just reviewing the company.

My personal favorite is this, with a perfect 5-star rating with four reviews: the WCRB tower.
https://www.google.com/maps/place/WCRB-FM+transmitter+site/@42.6538649,-71.2193722,17z/data=!4m8!3m7!1s0x89e3a7a309a80af3:0xc23b77e832ba93eb!8m2!3d42.653861!4d-71.2167919!9m1!1b1!16s%2Fg%2F11bw67jpnz?entry=ttu&g_ep=EgoyMDI1MDMwMy4wIKXMDSoASAFQAw%3D%3D

"Great view from the top of the tower"

Quote from: kphoger on March 06, 2025, 12:28:08 PMI usually filter Google Maps locations by 4 stars and above, 3.5 stars only if I really really have to.  Anything below 3.5 stars on Google is going to be really sketchy.  Below 3 stars, and reading the reviews should be done for entertainment purposes more than anything.

Quote from: webny99 on March 06, 2025, 12:57:18 PMIt does also depend on the type of establishment being reviewed. Some places get review-bombed, and those are usually very entertaining to read. And some low-rated places are preferably avoided but essential, such as most airports and train stations.

Motels are the best.  There used to be a Motel 6 location here in Wichita that, before it was torn down, was the most entertaining compendium of Google reviews.  Every other review mentioned drug deals in the hallway, prostitution, and/or the pervasive smell of urine.

Also, people leave reviews of places they've never been, way out in the middle of nowhere in far northern Canada or whatever, just for fun.  Example:  this 4.6 star rating (https://maps.app.goo.gl/4A3dg4WQ1DwjqvpG9) means nothing, which you quickly discover from reading the reviews.  Finding such review-bomb locations is kind of a hobby of mine.

For the purposes of determining if I want to actually spend money on something, I typically read the one- and two-star reviews to see if there's anything there that actually sounds like a plausible thing that could happen to me. If it's just entitled people complaining about dumb stuff, or if it's complaining about something that isn't relevant to me (e.g. a feature I don't care about doesn't work well), then I feel more confident spending the money. Of course, if it's something that sounds like a legitimate problem with the business that could affect me, I might search alternatives.

Looking at reviews for entertainment purposes...there's nothing better for that than Nevada brothels (especially the ones in Pahrump, which get the clueless Vegas tourists, who are more inclined to go in with expectations than someone going to one in Battle Mountain or whatever).

My wife occasionally listens to the Your Stupid Opinions podcast, where two comedians go through the reviews of selected businesses and make fun of the reviewers and/or the businesses. It's pretty funny.

Quote from: webny99 on March 06, 2025, 12:15:22 PMFor comparison, my local Wendy's is also currently rated 4.1 stars

That's pretty good for a Wendy's or any fast food.  I usually find that places like that are 3 point something, so it's reflected in a difference in the rating, not what the rating means.

Quote from: webny99 on March 06, 2025, 12:57:18 PMI don't care at all if others patronize the business or not,

The business sure does, however.

Rarely am I looking at reviews for local places.  There's a few places where, if I were traveling, I would never stop there based on the reviews. But when they're local to home, I don't give it a second thought.

Quote from: Scott5114 on March 06, 2025, 05:29:35 PMFor the purposes of determining if I want to actually spend money on something, I typically read the one- and two-star reviews to see if there's anything there that actually sounds like a plausible thing that could happen to me.

In my experience, this method of skipping straight to the bad reviews first seems to be more common than kphoger's method.

Quote from: vdeane on March 06, 2025, 09:59:58 PM

QuoteFor comparison, my local Wendy's is also currently rated 4.1 stars

That's pretty good for a Wendy's or any fast food.  I usually find that places like that are 3 point something

Agreed on that (https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=35578.msg2972464#msg2972464).

Quote from: vdeane on March 06, 2025, 09:59:58 PMit's reflected in a difference in the rating, not what the rating means.

I am not entirely sure what this means.

---

Quote from: vdeane on March 06, 2025, 09:59:58 PM

QuoteI don't care at all if others patronize the business or not,

The business sure does, however.

Of course they do, as they should, and I am not disputing that. I do however dispute the notion that a single rating with no content has any meaningful or measurable impact on whether others patronize the business.

Quote from: webny99 on March 07, 2025, 08:32:48 AM

Quoteit's reflected in a difference in the rating, not what the rating means.

I am not entirely sure what this means.

Exactly what it says: instead of a 4.1 meaning something different for a fast food place than for a more upscale place, instead the fast food place is more likely to just have a lower rating.  I've noticed this with hotels, too.  People seem to be very bad at adjusting their expectations for the type of place they're patronizing.

Quote from: vdeane on March 07, 2025, 01:04:50 PMPeople seem to be very bad at adjusting their expectations for the type of place they're patronizing.

Such as...

Man, my experience at this Fazoli's was nothing like what I've come to expect from Macaroni Grill.  One star!

Man, this Macaroni Grill blows Fazoli's out of the water!  Five stars!!!!!

Quote from: vdeane on March 07, 2025, 01:04:50 PM

Quote from: webny99 on March 07, 2025, 08:32:48 AM

Quoteit's reflected in a difference in the rating, not what the rating means.

I am not entirely sure what this means.

Exactly what it says: instead of a 4.1 meaning something different for a fast food place than for a more upscale place, instead the fast food place is more likely to just have a lower rating.  I've noticed this with hotels, too.  People seem to be very bad at adjusting their expectations for the type of place they're patronizing.

And people tend to expect minimal anything at fast food places. If the order was correct, there was a clean table and the employees were alive, that beats many people's expectations.

Whereas at a high-end restaurant or hotel, people want to be treated as royalty.  Anything less and that goes against those type places.

Quote from: vdeane on March 07, 2025, 01:04:50 PM

Quote

Quoteit's reflected in a difference in the rating, not what the rating means.

I am not entirely sure what this means.

Exactly what it says: instead of a 4.1 meaning something different for a fast food place than for a more upscale place, instead the fast food place is more likely to just have a lower rating.  I've noticed this with hotels, too.  People seem to be very bad at adjusting their expectations for the type of place they're patronizing.

I've also noticed that fast food places, hotels, etc. tend to have lower ratings, mostly for pretty obvious reasons.

I just think comparing ratings between Wendy's and an upscale restaurant is apples to oranges because expectations, cost, and overall experience are very different, as they should be. Hence why I would interpret 4.1 as "meh" for an upscale restaurant but "decent" for Wendy's, even if the overall experience might be correctly rated as a 4.1 at both.

Quote from: webny99 on March 07, 2025, 01:42:57 PMI just think comparing ratings between Wendy's and an upscale restaurant is apples to oranges because expectations, cost, and overall experience are very different, as they should be. Hence why I would interpret 4.1 as "meh" for an upscale restaurant but "decent" for Wendy's, even if the overall experience might be correctly rated as a 4.1 at both.

But I think the point is that that should work both ways.  If a fast food place met but didn't exceed your expectations, then why shouldn't that get the same rating as when an upscale place met but didn't exceed your expectations?

It's not like our stars are Michelin stars...

Quote from: kphoger on March 07, 2025, 01:53:41 PM

QuoteI just think comparing ratings between Wendy's and an upscale restaurant is apples to oranges because expectations, cost, and overall experience are very different, as they should be. Hence why I would interpret 4.1 as "meh" for an upscale restaurant but "decent" for Wendy's, even if the overall experience might be correctly rated as a 4.1 at both.

But I think the point is that that should work both ways.  If a fast food place met but didn't exceed your expectations, then why shouldn't that get the same rating as when an upscale place met but didn't exceed your expectations?

It should.

Met expectations at a fast food restaurant = ~4 stars. But also, that's pretty decent for a fast food restaurant.
Met expectations at an upscale restaurant = ~4 stars. But also, that's pretty meh for an upscale restaurant.

Quote from: webny99 on March 07, 2025, 03:25:09 PMMet expectations at a fast food restaurant = ~4 stars. But also, that's pretty decent for a fast food restaurant.
Met expectations at an upscale restaurant = ~4 stars. But also, that's pretty meh for an upscale restaurant.

It sounds to me like you need to adjust your expectations.

Quote from: kphoger on March 07, 2025, 03:33:38 PM

Quote from: webny99 on March 07, 2025, 03:25:09 PMMet expectations at a fast food restaurant = ~4 stars. But also, that's pretty decent for a fast food restaurant.
Met expectations at an upscale restaurant = ~4 stars. But also, that's pretty meh for an upscale restaurant.

It sounds to me like you need to adjust your expectations.

Take a look at ratings for fast food restaurants you like going to.

Take a look at ratings for upscale restaurants you like going to.

He ain't far off.

Quote from: jeffandnicole on March 07, 2025, 03:44:19 PMTake a look at ratings for fast food restaurants you like going to.

Take a look at ratings for upscale restaurants you like going to.

He ain't far off.

I picked two at random.

Braum's @ Central/Edgemoor = 4.1 stars
BJ's @ Kellogg/Rock = 4.2 stars

What's your point?  What am I supposed to know from that?  Or is BJ's not "upscale" enough?

Quote from: kphoger on March 07, 2025, 03:33:38 PMIt sounds to me like you everyone needs to adjust your their expectations.

FTFY  :D

But... do they really, though? I think it's OK to expect a ~five-star experience from an upscale restaurant while expecting a ~three-star experience from a fast food restaurant as a baseline.

Quote from: webny99 on March 07, 2025, 04:14:23 PMIt sounds to me like you everyone needs to adjust your their expectations.

Ah, so you interpret ✭✭✭✭ as a "four star experience", whereas I interpret ✭✭✭✭ as a "B".

Quote from: kphoger on March 07, 2025, 04:19:44 PM

QuoteIt sounds to me like you everyone needs to adjust your their expectations.

Ah, so you interpret ✭✭✭✭ as a "four star experience", whereas I interpret ✭✭✭✭ as a "B".

More or less, yes.

To your earlier point, I do think there tends to be "Michelin star" element with reviews of restaurants specifically. And that might not even necessarily be the intent of the reviewers, but it shows up pretty reliably in the aggregate ratings.

I would imagine that fast food restaurants tend to have lower ratings than nicer restaurants just because most fast food restaurants typically run perilously close to total meltdown even on a good day. (The need for less overhead means you have less staff in place to handle any problems that arise, and if someone gets sick or doesn't show up then you have fewer people to pick up the slack.) So you're more likely to end up catching one in the throes of a disaster than you are a good sit-down place.

Quote from: Scott5114 on March 07, 2025, 07:10:50 PMI would imagine that fast food restaurants tend to have lower ratings than nicer restaurants just because most fast food restaurants typically run perilously close to total meltdown even on a good day. (The need for less overhead means you have less staff in place to handle any problems that arise, and if someone gets sick or doesn't show up then you have fewer people to pick up the slack.) So you're more likely to end up catching one in the throes of a disaster than you are a good sit-down place.

You might be surprised. The margins on fast food is considerably higher than nicer restaurants. The skill gap makes up the difference in staffing levels. Fast food restaurants probably have more people working comparatively than you might think.

I likewise also interpret four stars as "a B" rather than a "four star experience".  In my mind, five stars is "excellent", four is "good/met expectations", three is "meh, not great, but also not really bad", two is "bad but at least it wasn't worse", and one is "horrible, some fundamental aspect of the experience was broken".

This whole thing of a good rating varying in how many stars it is by how "upscale" the place is reminds me of the stories of supervisors never giving new employees an "outstanding" performance review because the new person didn't have the experience to contribute at the same level as someone who has been there 20 years and gotten a promotion or two.

Quote from: JayhawkCO on March 07, 2025, 08:08:16 PM

Quote from: Scott5114 on March 07, 2025, 07:10:50 PMI would imagine that fast food restaurants tend to have lower ratings than nicer restaurants just because most fast food restaurants typically run perilously close to total meltdown even on a good day. (The need for less overhead means you have less staff in place to handle any problems that arise, and if someone gets sick or doesn't show up then you have fewer people to pick up the slack.) So you're more likely to end up catching one in the throes of a disaster than you are a good sit-down place.

You might be surprised. The margins on fast food is considerably higher than nicer restaurants. The skill gap makes up the difference in staffing levels. Fast food restaurants probably have more people working comparatively than you might think.

I've never worked in a nice restaurant, just fast food. At the Burger King I managed, we had one person who was responsible for the entire front of house (lobby, bathrooms, and front counter register), two in the kitchen (who also washed dishes and cleaned the equipment), one in the drive thru, and then the manager, who also covered breaks and allocated the food coming out of the kitchen to the proper orders. As you can imagine, if just one of those people were missing or less-than-capable, it led to some pretty fantastic breakdowns. I imagine there are at least a few non-fast-food restaurants with similarly lean staffing, but is that the norm?

Quote from: Scott5114 on March 07, 2025, 09:25:31 PM

Quote from: JayhawkCO on March 07, 2025, 08:08:16 PM

Quote from: Scott5114 on March 07, 2025, 07:10:50 PMI would imagine that fast food restaurants tend to have lower ratings than nicer restaurants just because most fast food restaurants typically run perilously close to total meltdown even on a good day. (The need for less overhead means you have less staff in place to handle any problems that arise, and if someone gets sick or doesn't show up then you have fewer people to pick up the slack.) So you're more likely to end up catching one in the throes of a disaster than you are a good sit-down place.

You might be surprised. The margins on fast food is considerably higher than nicer restaurants. The skill gap makes up the difference in staffing levels. Fast food restaurants probably have more people working comparatively than you might think.

I've never worked in a nice restaurant, just fast food. At the Burger King I managed, we had one person who was responsible for the entire front of house (lobby, bathrooms, and front counter register), two in the kitchen (who also washed dishes and cleaned the equipment), one in the drive thru, and then the manager, who also covered breaks and allocated the food coming out of the kitchen to the proper orders. As you can imagine, if just one of those people were missing or less-than-capable, it led to some pretty fantastic breakdowns. I imagine there are at least a few non-fast-food restaurants with similarly lean staffing, but is that the norm?

We used to run lunch shifts at TAG (the first restaurant I was GM of) with me, a server, a bartender, two chefs, and a dishwasher. If it got particularly busy, it was a nightmare, since I was the host/food runner/server/busser/phone answerer/sometimes cook, etc. The things you do to try to make money. So we ran a similar amount of people while also providing full service (i.e., taking orders, refilling drinks, pouring wine/cocktails, etc.). This is fairly normal.

Quote from: SEWIGuy on December 29, 2024, 08:38:43 PM

Quote from: webny99 on December 29, 2024, 08:36:28 PMWhat I will say is that I've been there four times and paid more in tips in those four visits than the entire cancellation fee was worth.

How many positive Google reviews did you leave after those trips?

How many Google reviews do I ever think are real?

Quote from: JayhawkCO on March 08, 2025, 12:44:45 PM

QuoteI've never worked in a nice restaurant, just fast food. At the Burger King I managed, we had one person who was responsible for the entire front of house (lobby, bathrooms, and front counter register), two in the kitchen (who also washed dishes and cleaned the equipment), one in the drive thru, and then the manager, who also covered breaks and allocated the food coming out of the kitchen to the proper orders. As you can imagine, if just one of those people were missing or less-than-capable, it led to some pretty fantastic breakdowns. I imagine there are at least a few non-fast-food restaurants with similarly lean staffing, but is that the norm?

We used to run lunch shifts at TAG (the first restaurant I was GM of) with me, a server, a bartender, two chefs, and a dishwasher. If it got particularly busy, it was a nightmare, since I was the host/food runner/server/busser/phone answerer/sometimes cook, etc. The things you do to try to make money. So we ran a similar amount of people while also providing full service (i.e., taking orders, refilling drinks, pouring wine/cocktails, etc.). This is fairly normal.

I have my doubts that the number of customers served was similar to a fast food joint. Even so, it actually makes a lot of sense to me that staffing levels would be fairly similar between a fast food restaurant and an upscale restaurant, because one is serving more people but average orders are fairly small and they're getting them through quickly with limited service, while the other is serving fewer but with much larger average orders (both in terms of price and food volume) while also offering full service.

Quote from: webny99 on March 10, 2025, 08:49:36 AM

Quote from: JayhawkCO on March 08, 2025, 12:44:45 PM

QuoteI've never worked in a nice restaurant, just fast food. At the Burger King I managed, we had one person who was responsible for the entire front of house (lobby, bathrooms, and front counter register), two in the kitchen (who also washed dishes and cleaned the equipment), one in the drive thru, and then the manager, who also covered breaks and allocated the food coming out of the kitchen to the proper orders. As you can imagine, if just one of those people were missing or less-than-capable, it led to some pretty fantastic breakdowns. I imagine there are at least a few non-fast-food restaurants with similarly lean staffing, but is that the norm?

We used to run lunch shifts at TAG (the first restaurant I was GM of) with me, a server, a bartender, two chefs, and a dishwasher. If it got particularly busy, it was a nightmare, since I was the host/food runner/server/busser/phone answerer/sometimes cook, etc. The things you do to try to make money. So we ran a similar amount of people while also providing full service (i.e., taking orders, refilling drinks, pouring wine/cocktails, etc.). This is fairly normal.

I have my doubts that the number of customers served was similar to a fast food joint. Even so, it actually makes a lot of sense to me that staffing levels would be fairly similar between a fast food restaurant and an upscale restaurant, because one is serving more people but average orders are fairly small and they're getting them through quickly with limited service, while the other is serving fewer but with much larger average orders (both in terms of price and food volume) while also offering full service.

Of course we served way less people. Say 50-60 on a given day. But obviously it takes more effort to serve beverages (no self-serve soda machine, hand-made cocktails, water refills, etc.) and food (actually cooking food instead of just rewarming and assembling things). I would argue the average foot speed of those working was probably double an average fast food restaurant.

Quote from: JayhawkCO on March 10, 2025, 09:22:54 AM

Quote

QuoteWe used to run lunch shifts at TAG (the first restaurant I was GM of) with me, a server, a bartender, two chefs, and a dishwasher. If it got particularly busy, it was a nightmare, since I was the host/food runner/server/busser/phone answerer/sometimes cook, etc. The things you do to try to make money. So we ran a similar amount of people while also providing full service (i.e., taking orders, refilling drinks, pouring wine/cocktails, etc.). This is fairly normal.

I have my doubts that the number of customers served was similar to a fast food joint. Even so, it actually makes a lot of sense to me that staffing levels would be fairly similar between a fast food restaurant and an upscale restaurant, because one is serving more people but average orders are fairly small and they're getting them through quickly with limited service, while the other is serving fewer but with much larger average orders (both in terms of price and food volume) while also offering full service.

Of course we served way less people. Say 50-60 on a given day. But obviously it takes more effort to serve beverages (no self-serve soda machine, hand-made cocktails, water refills, etc.) and food (actually cooking food instead of just rewarming and assembling things). I would argue the average foot speed of those working was probably double an average fast food restaurant.

That makes sense. I had erroneously interpreted the bolded comment as referring to customers instead of employees.

And I don't doubt it regarding the foot speed, but there's also inherently way more walking distance being traveled in a full service environment.

Quote from: webny99 on March 10, 2025, 10:03:44 AM

Quote from: JayhawkCO on March 10, 2025, 09:22:54 AM

Quote

QuoteWe used to run lunch shifts at TAG (the first restaurant I was GM of) with me, a server, a bartender, two chefs, and a dishwasher. If it got particularly busy, it was a nightmare, since I was the host/food runner/server/busser/phone answerer/sometimes cook, etc. The things you do to try to make money. So we ran a similar amount of people while also providing full service (i.e., taking orders, refilling drinks, pouring wine/cocktails, etc.). This is fairly normal.

I have my doubts that the number of customers served was similar to a fast food joint. Even so, it actually makes a lot of sense to me that staffing levels would be fairly similar between a fast food restaurant and an upscale restaurant, because one is serving more people but average orders are fairly small and they're getting them through quickly with limited service, while the other is serving fewer but with much larger average orders (both in terms of price and food volume) while also offering full service.

Of course we served way less people. Say 50-60 on a given day. But obviously it takes more effort to serve beverages (no self-serve soda machine, hand-made cocktails, water refills, etc.) and food (actually cooking food instead of just rewarming and assembling things). I would argue the average foot speed of those working was probably double an average fast food restaurant.

That makes sense. I had erroneously interpreted the bolded comment as referring to customers instead of employees.

And I don't doubt it regarding the foot speed, but there's also inherently way more walking distance being traveled in a full service environment.

In the back of house, a.k.a. kitchen, you might be surprised. TAG specifically (RIP) had a kitchen smaller than your average McDonald's kitchen. When I look back at it, it was amazing what we pumped out of that kitchen.

Another "policy" thing that tends to create issues: return policies.

In my mind "return" is pretty much synonymous with "headache", so I try my best not to have to return things personally, sometimes even just opting to keep some low value item rather than deal with the hassle of returning it.  But I used to deal with returns quite a bit at my job, so I got pretty familiar with the ins and outs of various company's return policies.

I recall one instance that left me very frustrated at the time: we had placed an order that wasn't needed and discovered the error after the order had shipped, but before it arrived. The smartest move probably would have been to reject the shipment, but that wasn't communicated in time, so the order arrived and was signed for, and I had to go through the standard returns process as a result. That company has a flat 20% restocking fee on all returns. We were a long time customer and it was high value product; that seemed like a lot of money, so I asked if they could reduce it to 10%. They replied and said they could not offer 10% per policy. I replied (summarizing here) that 20% of that dollar value was completely unreasonable for a single box shipment, and that I wouldn't guarantee we would pay the restock fee. Then the sales manager got involved and said that they appreciated our business and were working to improve our account pricing, but they couldn't budge on the 20% restocking fee. I was pretty annoyed, but 80% back was a whole lot better than nothing, so 20% it was, and we continued to do business together.

Looking back on it now, even though I felt the policy was unreasonable, and even though making an exception for a long time customer would have been more than fair, I do begrudgingly respect them for sticking to their policy. And, in time, I would have felt the same way about the barbershop cancellation fee, because creating policies and sticking to them is something that large and successful businesses tend to do.

Quote from: webny99 on March 10, 2025, 01:17:34 PMAnother "policy" thing that tends to create issues: return policies.

I used to work in the returns warehouse of a Christian publishing company.  It had once been a small company, but then one of its publications became a New York Times bestseller, then a sequel was published that was also a bestseller, and so on.  Big expansion, new warehouse built, but nobody in the company had ever played ball in the big leagues before.

One of the company's most important customers was the middleman distributor for Wal-Mart, to whom they made an 'in stock' guarantee.  That's around the time I was hired.  Here's how I remember it going:

1.  They buy $100,000 worth of product, then put Wal-Mart price stickers on the cover of every item.

2.  They later send $80,000 work of the product back as returns and issue themselves $80,000 of credit.

3.  They order another $100,000 worth of product.  This process repeats.

4.  After a few days or weeks, depending on backlog, we in the warehouse scan each item individually into the system as a return, and sort it depending on condition.

5.  The Wal-Mart stickers are impossible to remove, so most every book ends up being sorted as 'damaged'.  The damaged books from this NYT bestseller series now accumulate by the pallet, but new ones still need to be printed for new orders.

6.  We send our total returns amount to accounting, who attempts to square the amount against the credit amount that the customer has already given themselves.

7.  With help from a coworker who likes playing around in Microsoft Access for fun, I develop a database to make our end of this process more transparent.

8.  The customer disputes our numbers.  I find out that the way they assign their own dollar amount is by taking the average weight of all our products, counting how many products they put in each pallet of returns, doing the multiplication, and then subtracting the average weight of the pallet itself.

9.  I call BS, because the weight of each pallet on the trucking company's bill of lading is listed as the same weight (let's say 1,800 pounds), every shipment, every day, no matter what's inside.  I also determine that their average pallet weight is off by dozens of pounds.  None of that matters, of course, because this is how they play the game, and it's their game and their rules.

10.  The number of pallets of returned books begins to exceed our warehouse capacity, so we but a new warehouse offsite and start making truck runs over there every week.  We lease half of the warehouse space to another company, which actually generates profit to our company because it's more than what we paid for the warehouse.

11.  Every few months, we send a few truckloads of these books to an industrial shredder in Tennessee.

12.  We eventually get wind that someone is paying the shredder to load the books onto their own truck instead of shredding them, then that someone sells them out from under us for cheap.  So now someone from our company flies down there each time to basically just watch and make sure they actually get shredded.

Wow, kphoger. I remember you sharing at least part of that experience previously, but I think that's even more insane than I remembered.

Quote from: kphoger on March 10, 2025, 02:07:21 PMOne of the company's most important customers was the middleman distributor for Wal-Mart, to whom they made an 'in stock' guarantee.  That's around the time I was hired.  Here's how I remember it going:

1.  They buy $100,000 worth of product, then put Wal-Mart price stickers on the cover of every item.

2.  They later send $80,000 work of the product back as returns and issue themselves $80,000 of credit.

3.  They order another $100,000 worth of product.  This process repeats.

What was the point of this process? I assume it was some sort of work-around to fulfill the stock guarantee while not actually paying for the stock, but I can't imagine how this is simpler or more effective than just stocking up to a certain level and placing new orders as the stock is used.

Quote from: kphoger on March 10, 2025, 02:07:21 PM5.  The Wal-Mart stickers are impossible to remove, so most every book ends up being sorted as 'damaged'.  The damaged books from this NYT bestseller series now accumulate by the pallet, but new ones still need to be printed for new orders.

Why not just play along and fill new orders with the returned books? Even if they insist on returning them, you'd think they'd actually prefer to receive the stickered books, since it would save them the process of stickering the new ones.

Quote from: webny99 on March 10, 2025, 03:19:16 PMWhat was the point of this process? I assume it was some sort of work-around to fulfill the stock guarantee while not actually paying for the stock, but I can't imagine how this is simpler or more effective than just stocking up to a certain level and placing new orders as the stock is used.

I'm not entirely sure.  I don't know if it's an artifact of their being such a huge network, or a way of rotating warehouse stock to ensure they're always supplying their stores with newer product, or what.

Quote from: webny99 on March 10, 2025, 03:19:16 PMWhy not just play along and fill new orders with the returned books? Even if they insist on returning them, you'd think they'd actually prefer to receive the stickered books, since it would save them the process of stickering the new ones.

We actually talked them into that for a while.  As I recall, it didn't last long.

Quote from: kphoger on March 10, 2025, 02:07:21 PM2.  They later send $80,000 work of the product back as returns and issue themselves $80,000 of credit.

...
6.  We send our total returns amount to accounting, who attempts to square the amount against the credit amount that the customer has already given themselves.

Talking B2B here, I generally think that customers giving themselves credit is tacky and poor business practice.

But there are some exceptions. I work with a company that takes such an insanely long time to process credits - whether for returns, pricing issues, or anything else - that it could be two or three seasons from now by the time they get around to it. At a certain point, the admin time chasing down the credits to no avail and having them outstanding on all the billing reports for months on end simply wasn't worth it, so we started just immediately taking the credits ourselves and letting them figure it out. Then when an actual credit from that company shows up in the snail mail months later, it's a quick double check to make sure it's case closed and straight to file 13. And to my knowledge, we've had zero issues doing things that way. They do sometimes ask for more information, which we are of course willing and able to provide, but there's been no major or unsolvable disputes.

Quote from: webny99 on March 10, 2025, 01:17:34 PMAnother "policy" thing that tends to create issues: return policies.

This it the main reason I still continue to use Amazon despite me having issues with big business. Returns there are about as easy as any company could make it.  I also love REI's policies as well.

Quote from: JayhawkCO on March 10, 2025, 04:02:59 PMThis it the main reason I still continue to use Amazon despite me having issues with big business. Returns there are about as easy as any company could make it.

I think that's because they recognized it early on as a sticking-point. Returns tend to create disputes in both retail and distribution business models, but they do such massive volume that they are able to offer a super customer-friendly return policy and essentially take a loss on returns.

Quote from: webny99 on March 10, 2025, 04:12:32 PM

Quote from: JayhawkCO on March 10, 2025, 04:02:59 PMThis it the main reason I still continue to use Amazon despite me having issues with big business. Returns there are about as easy as any company could make it.

I think that's because they recognized it early on as a sticking-point. Returns tend to create disputes in both retail and distribution business models, but they do such massive volume that they are able to offer a super customer-friendly return policy and essentially take a loss on returns.

And they're basically a logistics company just as much as they are a retailer. That helps the cause too.

Quote from: kphoger on February 24, 2025, 10:13:17 AMThis is where the story should have ended.  You were late, they charged you a fee, and you booked a new appointment.  That's how things work.
...

That's a fair response after all, and it's the only thing you should have done on Google to begin with.  You shouldn't have left the 1-star review but saved your review till the situation was fully resolved.  And it sounds like the later 3-star review actually falls in line with "the purpose of Google reviews"

So the three-star review should have also been the end of the story.... right? ...right? Well, it was as far as I was concerned, but the barbershop owner finally replied to my review just last week. I think he was waiting to find out if I was going to come back or not (noticing a theme here...?)

Anyways, his version of events was that I rebooked the appointment at their other location to avoid paying the no-show fee... which was untrue*. He also said that because of this, I shouldn't have been surprised by them refusing service, and that I should know better because I'm in [position x] at a [local] business... which I found insanely creepy and unprofessional, if not also illegal. And finally, I don't use my full name on Google, but he used it in the reply.

So I added a mini-rant to my review, calling out the fact that he had literally called me to complain about my review and was now attempting to reveal my identity online... which prompted a revision addressing me as "Anonymous" and stating that my diatribe was irrelevant to their business. Ha! So a meaningless one-star rating was grounds for refusing service, but a review which contained legitimate criticisms was suddenly not relevant at all. Talk about cognitive dissonance! :-D I then made a final edit removing the majority of my rant and clarifying that I did indeed pay the no show fee and that the reason they lost my business was not because of the fee that I agreed to and paid, but because of their [descriptive adjectives] response to a poor Google rating, which proved my point. End of story, for good this time.

Quote from: vdeane on December 29, 2024, 09:11:27 PMthen left a 1-star review because you only accepted the cancellation fee because you assumed you could get away with not paying it

Apparently, the owner had the same view-point. But instead of just ignoring the 'irrelevant' rating or politely calling to clarify that I had to pay the fee*, he was immediately confrontational and stated that I could not return because I had rebooked and then left a poor rating.

*I had no idea that rebooking was a potential way to workaround the fee, and even if I did, I wouldn't have left a poor rating without being certain that I had to pay the fee. If they were literally going to credit the fee because I rebooked 'elsewhere', then I unwittingly exposed a massive loophole in their system, which is hilarious in hindsight... but also should have been very easy to identify and clear up in a polite manner.

Quote from: webny99 on May 17, 2025, 09:05:32 AM[still thinking about this six months later]

webny99 : this barber :: Poiponen : Jade

Quote from: webny99 on December 29, 2024, 01:53:11 PMSince I typically pay cash, I honestly didn't think they had my card on file to charge, but I checked an hour later and sure enough they'd already charged it. I was pretty annoyed by paying almost $30 for nothing (partly my own fault, I'm aware) so I dumped a one star review on Google and figured I'd see if anything came of it.

...

And since the owner cared so much about the review, I also left a new *three* star review stating that they were tripping over dollars to pick up pennies and that they valued my review more than my business, so they could have what they valued most, but that I did have a good experience with both of the barbers that had cut my hair. So there you have it.

I think it ultimately comes down to this.  You took the charge thinking they couldn't charge you (because you forgot that your credit card was on file), decided to leave a bad review to "see if anything came of it", what came of it wasn't what you wanted, things got awkward, and then you left a mediocre review and continued the feud.

I let my typical opinion of businesses be known by my absence. Plus word of mouth.

Be legendary or be legendary not.There is no "try." But I'll cut a trying business some slack.

Quote from: Scott5114 on May 17, 2025, 10:16:38 AM

Quote from: webny99 on May 17, 2025, 09:05:32 AM[still thinking about this six months later]

webny99 : this barber :: Poiponen : Jade

Ha!  Too bad likes are no longer a thing...

Quote from: vdeane on May 17, 2025, 04:19:45 PMI think it ultimately comes down to this.  You took the charge thinking they couldn't charge you (because you forgot that your credit card was on file), decided to leave a bad review to "see if anything came of it", what came of it wasn't what you wanted, things got awkward, and then you left a mediocre review and continued the feud.

The irony of it all is that the payment of the fee didn't even occur to me until later, so it was not a factor in accepting the rebooking. Otherwise, fair summary.

Still, there was no reason for a mediocre review to be grounds for continuing the feud, and the fact that it did, only proved my point.

Quote from: webny99 on May 17, 2025, 05:51:38 PM

QuoteI think it ultimately comes down to this.  You took the charge thinking they couldn't charge you (because you forgot that your credit card was on file), decided to leave a bad review to "see if anything came of it", what came of it wasn't what you wanted, things got awkward, and then you left a mediocre review and continued the feud.

The irony of it all is that the payment of the fee didn't even occur to me until later, so it was not a factor in accepting the rebooking. Otherwise, fair summary.

Still, there was no reason for a mediocre review to be grounds for continuing the feud, and the fact that it did, only proved my point.

I didn't say you rebooked to avoid the fee, you yourself said that you didn't expect they could assess the fee because you didn't think they had your credit card information on file.  They did, you got surprised, and left a one star review.  I can understand why they'd be mad at that.  You took down that review so you could get their haircut the next day, but then you posted a three star review because you were mad that they were mad about the one star review.