I haven't mentioned this here, but I had heart surgery on Friday because of a heart condition I've had for a long time. The good news is that this surgery is said to greatly improve quality of life and restore your normal level of energy. The problem with that is that I will most likely need to get back to work, because they don't give out disability benefits unless you're practically on your deathbed.
I haven't been able to work in a while because of heart and other conditions. When I worked before then, I wasn't earning nearly enough to retire at 51. I made a little bit of money from some scattered projects, but not much. I have to start my career over, and I want to become an investigative journalist.
How do you become an investigative journalist when you're 51 with no college degree and you have a gap in your work history?
Again, it is extremely - and I mean extremely - difficult to qualify for disability. And it's just as hard to stay on it for more than a few years. Odds are you will be thrown off disability before long. I have PTSD because of some things that happened in my youth, but I don't think the government takes PTSD seriously, so I can't just qualify on that alone. Also, some of my life history is not the best, but that wasn't even my fault. Other health conditions I have also are not being taken seriously. I've been chronically ill for over half my life, but I'm expected to work as hard as I did when I was an energetic 21-year-old when I worked at the library.
I've done a lot of amateur and semipro writing projects over the years, but how would I really make investigative journalism a self-sustaining career at 51? Should I try to buy a printing press or something? Should I just grovel at some news site until they hire me, even though I don't have a degree?
It would be great if I could become relatively healthy again, but I know that my remaining health problems won't be taken seriously, so I will need to find some source of income instead of just disability benefits.
I worked very hard when I was younger and healthier, and it frustrates me when I can't keep working.
Also, keep in mind that around here, there's no sort of social services to help people with employment, housing, or any other basic needs.
Even the investigative journalists with decades of experience are having trouble keeping jobs these days. The average person is not willing to pay to subscribe to a source of journalism. Investigative journalism is more expensive than other kinds of journalism because an article can take months of work to produce and sometimes it doesn't even pan out to anything. This is why so many news outlets known for investigative journalism are owned by billionaires; they're the only ones who can afford to lose money on an unprofitable institution (and of course now they're directing their editors to spike content left and right to suck up to the people they'd be investigating in normal times).
There's also the problem these days that you could put in months of effort on a story, completely nail the bad guy's ass to the wall, and then about half the population will call it fake news and completely ignore it. Or the subject pays off enough people that your story is swept under the rug and forgotten.
If none of this deters you, you probably need to freelance until you break some sort of story that gets wide attention, so you have some sort of credibility to whoever you'd be applying to work for.
You might also need to move to a different region. The area you live in is not exactly awash in the sort of stories that the few people getting paid to do investigative journalism tend to cover.
1. I'm very sorry to hear about how life has treated you and I hope things get better
2. It's 2025, the printing press is an anachronism and most news outlets are firing off people with a lot more experience than you left and right. I think your best bet would be starting a substack.
3. If you are in a precarious financial situation, then don't bet on this as your bread and butter. Just find work, even if it's not enjoyable, that will let you make ends meet.
Quote from: Scott5114 on January 27, 2025, 08:31:14 PMThe average person is not willing to pay to subscribe to a source of journalism.
Not to mention, the way we consume news these days doesn't support that model. Just 30 years ago, people would subscribe to the local paper, watch the news on TV, and if they were really into news, maybe one of the national papers like the New York Times, and they would get all of their news from those sources. These days, we've become accustomed to clicking links from social media and news aggregators to any number of sources. Having to subscribe to individual outlets doesn't make sense in the current model.
Personally, I'd be willing to pay for news, but it would have to be something where I could have an account (like E-ZPass, but for news) where I could be assessed a small amount per article and then get billed on regular basis (say monthly) based on what I read. I'm not willing to give up being able to read news from wherever. I'm not paying for that many subscriptions (bad enough I'm subscribed to six streaming services because each of them has at least a couple things I want to watch), and it's easier to just remember not to click on the few sources that have paywalls I can't easily bypass.
Quote from: Scott5114 on January 27, 2025, 08:31:14 PMYou might also need to move to a different region. The area you live in is not exactly awash in the sort of stories that the few people getting paid to do investigative journalism tend to cover.
That is not the kind of advice I would give to someone in his situation.
I'm planning on considering something like a career change (probably safety administration) once I hit my full pension tenure. I have 8 years to that point myself but don't plan seriously on looking into I hit 55. By the time I'm that age I'll have been working in the same field for 36-37 years. A change would be welcome, especially if it has me in line for another pension.
That said, print media and journalism is about as dead as it can get.
Quote from: kernals12 on January 27, 2025, 08:58:08 PMQuote from: Scott5114 on January 27, 2025, 08:31:14 PMYou might also need to move to a different region. The area you live in is not exactly awash in the sort of stories that the few people getting paid to do investigative journalism tend to cover.
That is not the kind of advice I would give to someone in his situation.
If you find yourself needing to start over, relocating is often a good step—one of the things that can hold you back, especially in a career situation, is a lack of jobs in the field of work you want to pursue. There are also benefits to immersing yourself in the culture of a city or state that is not familiar to you—being too ensconced in one's comfort zone can make it more difficult to achieve one's goals, career or otherwise.
This is not to say that everyone can or should relocate from where they're used to. But it is often helpful, or perhaps even the only way to achieve certain goals. If you grew up in Tonopah, Nevada, you are probably not going to have a very successful career as a marine biologist unless you're okay with moving away from your hometown.
(I would imagine these are all things you've thought a lot about, having gone through a major move yourself recently. I have as well, and while there are a few things about my post-move life I'm not entirely happy about, altogether I feel like I'm quite a bit better off than I was.)
A change of scenery is healthy every couple years I've found. I've moved across the country for both career opportunities and because I was bored (if not both). That said, all of these moves were all done before I was married.
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on January 27, 2025, 10:27:15 PMA change of scenery is healthy every couple years I've found. I've moved across the country for both career opportunities and because I was bored (if not both). That said, all of these moves were all done before I was married.
Marriage is the great anchor.
Bandit, what's your background/education in? Do you have a degree?
Quote from: Scott5114 on January 27, 2025, 10:21:35 PMQuote from: kernals12 on January 27, 2025, 08:58:08 PMQuote from: Scott5114 on January 27, 2025, 08:31:14 PMYou might also need to move to a different region. The area you live in is not exactly awash in the sort of stories that the few people getting paid to do investigative journalism tend to cover.
That is not the kind of advice I would give to someone in his situation.
If you find yourself needing to start over, relocating is often a good step—one of the things that can hold you back, especially in a career situation, is a lack of jobs in the field of work you want to pursue. There are also benefits to immersing yourself in the culture of a city or state that is not familiar to you—being too ensconced in one's comfort zone can make it more difficult to achieve one's goals, career or otherwise.
This is not to say that everyone can or should relocate from where they're used to. But it is often helpful, or perhaps even the only way to achieve certain goals. If you grew up in Tonopah, Nevada, you are probably not going to have a very successful career as a marine biologist unless you're okay with moving away from your hometown.
(I would imagine these are all things you've thought a lot about, having gone through a major move yourself recently. I have as well, and while there are a few things about my post-move life I'm not entirely happy about, altogether I feel like I'm quite a bit better off than I was.)
I'm worried Bandit might move to Washington (easily the best place to start a career in investigative journalism) on a wing and a prayer and burn through all his savings ultimately unable to get his dream job. And if his health takes a turn for the worse again, it would be very bad if it happened in a city where he has no friends or family to lean on.
Quote from: Rothman on January 27, 2025, 11:04:00 PMBandit, what's your background/education in? Do you have a degree?
I was majoring in radio/TV in college but I wasn't able to get my degree.
But I wasn't really studying investigative journalism, because I was mostly into radio production.
Quote from: bandit957 on January 27, 2025, 11:41:15 PMQuote from: Rothman on January 27, 2025, 11:04:00 PMBandit, what's your background/education in? Do you have a degree?
I was majoring in radio/TV in college but I wasn't able to get my degree.
But I wasn't really studying investigative journalism, because I was mostly into radio production.
And what kind of jobs have you had since college?
Quote from: kernals12 on January 27, 2025, 11:49:13 PMAnd what kind of jobs have you had since college?
I worked at the local library for a while, had a temporary job delivering phone books, worked briefly on a federal government project (which was abandoned), and worked as a writer. Now I don't really write to make a living, because the stuff I write is for people who don't have any money to actually pay for it. I know I tried to do something else too, but I forget what it was. Whatever it was, it didn't last long.
For a few years, I actually had ads through Google AdSense on my blog, but then AdSense yanked my account and stole the money I had coming. There was a class action suit about this, and I would have won good money from it, but my incident was just a few weeks outside the time frame the suit covered.
Quote from: bandit957 on January 28, 2025, 12:03:38 AMQuote from: kernals12 on January 27, 2025, 11:49:13 PMAnd what kind of jobs have you had since college?
I worked at the local library for a while, had a temporary job delivering phone books, worked briefly on a federal government project (which was abandoned), and worked as a writer. Now I don't really write to make a living, because the stuff I write is for people who don't have any money to actually pay for it. I know I tried to do something else too, but I forget what it was. Whatever it was, it didn't last long.
For a few years, I actually had ads through Google AdSense on my blog, but then AdSense yanked my account and stole the money I had coming. There was a class action suit about this, and I would have won good money from it, but my incident was just a few weeks outside the time frame the suit covered.
Have you thought about starting a podcast?
Quote from: kernals12 on January 28, 2025, 12:20:51 AMHave you thought about starting a podcast?
I used to do a regular YouTube feature, but it wasn't anything big.
Getting that kind of stuff to generate revenue isn't exactly easy either.
This is a video of Flint, Mich., but it reminds me so much of my hometown of Highland Heights, Ky...
Highland Heights used to be a pretty good place, but it got really bad in the late '80s.
Quote from: bandit957 on January 28, 2025, 12:26:17 AMQuote from: kernals12 on January 28, 2025, 12:20:51 AMHave you thought about starting a podcast?
I used to do a regular YouTube feature, but it wasn't anything big.
Do you know what you might do if your journalism dream doesn't work out?
Quote from: kernals12 on January 28, 2025, 12:37:56 AMDo you know what you might do if your journalism dream doesn't work out?
I'd probably be out of luck. I might try to do other forms of writing again.
I should also note that I was not the most efficient reader and was basically a lousy student throughout my youth. I read very slowly. Our school system refused to make accommodations for this.
Quote from: bandit957 on January 28, 2025, 12:56:38 AMI should also note that I was not the most efficient reader and was basically a lousy student throughout my youth. I read very slowly. Our school system refused to make accommodations for this.
Dyslexia?
Run for president.
Another thing is that I assume being an investigative journalist requires you have a lot of friends in high places. They're the ones that will give you hot scoops.
I will say that if you were able to make a living off of whatever writing you were doing before, you should do that again.
As someone who was in both the radio on-air and news reporting in same, I would also echo the thoughts about print journalism and radio/tv in general....currently a dying media (but you never know). The internet and podcasts/internet channels have possibility. You have to come up with a niche and if video related, a look. I would also recommend striving for accuracy, since you can say just about anything on the internet, true or false, and some people will believe you. If you're seen as accurate, you will likely get a better cross section to recommend you.
Quote from: Life in Paradise on January 28, 2025, 12:27:50 PMYou have to come up with ... a look.
Did you forget? He already has a look.
Quote from: bandit957 on November 06, 2016, 09:35:50 AMPunk rocker teeth (defined as crooked teeth that look cool) and an associated asymmetrical crossbite.
- Five missing teeth, including one broken off at the gum line from being punched in the jaw in high school. I haven't had the tooth replaced in 28 years.
Quote from: bandit957 on November 28, 2016, 12:01:17 PMCrooked teeth, missing teeth, I'm proud to say I have it all! So I rock it, because that's what we cool people do.
Quote from: bandit957 on March 29, 2017, 05:04:49 PMThe ladies love my twisted gnashers and asymmetrical crossbite
Quote from: bandit957 on May 31, 2018, 09:55:41 PMCrooked teeth are really cool. It's probably my best poverty symbol.
Quote from: bandit957 on July 23, 2021, 12:27:49 PMBad teeth are cool.
You're sitting on top of a goldmine for news there in the NKY/Cincy area. I'm no great fan of his, but I'd suggest you take a look at Eric Deters' stuff. He's been on the case of the medical establishment in the region.
A lot of the people I'm connected with on social media are big players in the NKY political scene -- Chris Wiest, TJ Roberts, Jerry Gearding to name three -- and they're in tune with a lot of stories that could be turned into big news if someone wanted to look into them.
I've tried to pursue a moonlighting career in political commentary for several years, with no success. I'm firmly convinced that my writing skills and my take on politics and current events are both as valid as any of the big national names -- think George Will, Jennifer Rubin, David Brooks, David Frum, Thomas Friedman, Paul Krugman, any big-name commentator you can think of on both sides -- but while they are rich and famous, I toiled in poverty and obscurity in eastern Kentucky. I finally got discouraged and quit writing my blog, although I'm thinking of reviving it. It became a chore to pour my heart and soul into political analysis, only for it to only get a handful of views on Blogspot.
If you want to make money, get a Twitter (X) account, get a blue check, and post outrageous stuff for clickbait and roll in the ad revenue. There's a long list of people from both sides of the political spectrum getting rich (Harry Sisson, JoJo From Jerz, Brooklyn Dad, Catturd, etc.) from their content. You have a pretty influential social media personality there in NKY in Nick Sortor. He's broken quite a bit of news the last few years.
Or get a TikTok account. I keep hearing how people make so much money on TikTok.
Quote from: kphoger on January 28, 2025, 01:01:06 PMHe already has a look.
Maybe with that look he should move to Britain to become successful.
Quote from: GaryV on January 28, 2025, 02:58:58 PMMaybe with that look he should move to Britain to become successful.
That would totally bip.
Quote from: bandit957 on January 28, 2025, 12:49:09 AMQuote from: kernals12 on January 28, 2025, 12:37:56 AMDo you know what you might do if your journalism dream doesn't work out?
I'd probably be out of luck. I might try to do other forms of writing again.
I could see you writing a Grishamesque crime novel; that certainly would fit in with your aspirations of being an investigative journalist.
If you want to simply write and not do the video thing, start a Substack account. Then create an X account to draw readers to that Substack, and when you get enough readers, you can charge a premium.
However I know a couple people who have gone this route, and it is extremely difficult. You better be a really good writer who write about things that people care about. And you have to constantly generate content. And these people started as national writers who went out on their own - so they had an audience already. They didn't build from scratch.
So my advice is that you better have an alternative way to earn income in the meantime.
I do have a Substack account that I use for a series of reports about something that's been in the news over the past 5 years. These reports might be somewhat controversial, as they back up a set of policy stances I have regarding this matter. But I think this is another situation where people aren't going to pay to read it, because I think my ideas appeal to people with less money.
It's a good project, but it's just not a money maker. It's great that this project is around. I haven't worked on it in a few months, because I became literally sick to my stomach over some of the incidents I had to cover, but I think I've made a good contribution to public discourse.
I also will not change my stances just because I'm paid more for it. This notion is lost on some commentators who I used to follow.
Quote from: bandit957 on January 29, 2025, 11:35:08 AMI do have a Substack account that I use for a series of reports about something that's been in the news over the past 5 years. These reports might be somewhat controversial, as they back up a set of policy stances I have regarding this matter. But I think this is another situation where people aren't going to pay to read it, because I think my ideas appeal to people with less money.
It's a good project, but it's just not a money maker. It's great that this project is around. I haven't worked on it in a few months, because I became literally sick to my stomach over some of the incidents I had to cover, but I think I've made a good contribution to public discourse.
I also will not change my stances just because I'm paid more for it. This notion is lost on some commentators who I used to follow.
What do you mean by that?
Quote from: bandit957 on January 29, 2025, 11:35:08 AMI do have a Substack account that I use for a series of reports about something that's been in the news over the past 5 years. These reports might be somewhat controversial, as they back up a set of policy stances I have regarding this matter. But I think this is another situation where people aren't going to pay to read it, because I think my ideas appeal to people with less money.
It's a good project, but it's just not a money maker. It's great that this project is around. I haven't worked on it in a few months, because I became literally sick to my stomach over some of the incidents I had to cover, but I think I've made a good contribution to public discourse.
I also will not change my stances just because I'm paid more for it. This notion is lost on some commentators who I used to follow.
I think you're making a mistake right now in not promoting yourself. You seem to have a decent following on this forum. So why not share your substack link here and maybe you'll pick up a few subscribers.
Quote from: kernals12 on January 29, 2025, 11:46:44 AMWhat do you mean by that?
My experience is that people with less money usually share my public policy views. They don't have much money to spend reading paid Substack accounts. My Substack reports are free.
My reports get in the realm of public policy that's generally outside the scope of this forum.
My impression is that even the most successful social media stars eventually burn out, for only so long having been able to withstand the constant need for more content. At that point, they either change their social media presence into a hobby and don't care if it's financially successful, or else they bow out entirely; either way, a career change is in order at that point anyway.
My opinion: don't kick that can a few years down the road. If you need to switch careers, do it now.
Can you not simply get an entry-level job at a restaurant or coffee shop or something?
Quote from: kphoger on January 29, 2025, 12:25:07 PMCan you not simply get an entry-level job at a restaurant or coffee shop or something?
Not too long ago, I offered to work at a store, but they essentially laughed at my offer.
Quote from: bandit957 on January 29, 2025, 12:27:16 PMQuote from: kphoger on January 29, 2025, 12:25:07 PMCan you not simply get an entry-level job at a restaurant or coffee shop or something?
Not too long ago, I offered to work at a store, but they essentially laughed at my offer.
Offer or apply to work at a store?
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on January 29, 2025, 12:33:00 PMOffer or apply to work at a store?
I basically just went right ahead and offered.
Quote from: bandit957 on January 29, 2025, 12:39:39 PMQuote from: Max Rockatansky on January 29, 2025, 12:33:00 PMOffer or apply to work at a store?
I basically just went right ahead and offered.
If it was a chain retailer they'll have a formal application process (usually online for posted openings). You can't just drop off a resume anymore with stores like that.
And one rejected offer does not mean you're un-hire-able.
Why not drive for Uber or Lyft?
Quote from: kernals12 on January 29, 2025, 01:18:13 PMWhy not drive for Uber or Lyft?
I should probably try to get my driver's license back first. That's another long story.
Since we're talking about Uber and Lyft, another thing I'm pretty good at is geographic analysis. I've built up databases of local roads and other geographic features. I downloaded some of it from OpenStreetMap and added to it or corrected some of it. I wrote up some computer programs to process it from time to time. I used to use FreeBASIC for this, but recently I learned some Python.
I use QGIS too.
These are great things to have around, but I use a lot of it just for personal use, since it doesn't have much professional potential. The personal interest and excitement over it is endless, but this isn't really an occupation.
I get wrapped up in these projects for days on end.
I use both Python and QGIS in my current job.
Quote from: bandit957 on January 29, 2025, 01:32:44 PMSince we're talking about Uber and Lyft, another thing I'm pretty good at is geographic analysis. I've built up databases of local roads and other geographic features. I downloaded some of it from OpenStreetMap and added to it or corrected some of it. I wrote up some computer programs to process it from time to time. I used to use FreeBASIC for this, but recently I learned some Python.
I use QGIS too.
These are great things to have around, but I use a lot of it just for personal use, since it doesn't have much professional potential. The personal interest and excitement over it is endless, but this isn't really an occupation.
I get wrapped up in these projects for days on end.
Are you kidding? Tons of people have careers doing GIS.
But is using GIS tools for your own private enjoyment going to get you in the door to an actual job which uses them?
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on January 29, 2025, 01:46:37 PMBut is using GIS tools for your own private enjoyment going to get you in the door to an actual job which uses them?
Is the Pope Catholic?
Quote from: kernals12 on January 29, 2025, 01:50:43 PMQuote from: Max Rockatansky on January 29, 2025, 01:46:37 PMBut is using GIS tools for your own private enjoyment going to get you in the door to an actual job which uses them?
Is the Pope Catholic?
Unless the aim is at entry-level there is a pretty big barrier to changing career fields in anything. Someone using GIS tools for fun probably isn't getting anyone a well paying related job. That doesn't mean it can't be built upon, but it would take time to develop a serious career.
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on January 29, 2025, 01:56:43 PMQuote from: kernals12 on January 29, 2025, 01:50:43 PMQuote from: Max Rockatansky on January 29, 2025, 01:46:37 PMBut is using GIS tools for your own private enjoyment going to get you in the door to an actual job which uses them?
Is the Pope Catholic?
Unless the aim is at entry-level there is a pretty big barrier to changing career fields in anything. Someone using GIS tools for fun probably isn't getting anyone a well paying related job. That doesn't mean it can't be built upon, but it would take time to develop a serious career.
So what? We all have to start somewhere
Edit: Also, it depends on your idea of "well paying".
Quote from: kernals12 on January 29, 2025, 02:00:28 PMQuote from: Max Rockatansky on January 29, 2025, 01:56:43 PMQuote from: kernals12 on January 29, 2025, 01:50:43 PMQuote from: Max Rockatansky on January 29, 2025, 01:46:37 PMBut is using GIS tools for your own private enjoyment going to get you in the door to an actual job which uses them?
Is the Pope Catholic?
Unless the aim is at entry-level there is a pretty big barrier to changing career fields in anything. Someone using GIS tools for fun probably isn't getting anyone a well paying related job. That doesn't mean it can't be built upon, but it would take time to develop a serious career.
So what? We all have to start somewhere
Edit: Also, it depends on your idea of "well paying".
So what is your point of contention? All I was pointing out was that anything but entry-level wasn't likely to be obtainable with just hobby experience. If that is worth it to Bandit, I don't see that as bad per se. It seems that you agree?
In the area Bandit lives I would imagine well paying is likely less than where I reside.
Quote from: kernals12 on January 29, 2025, 01:50:43 PMIs the Pope Catholic?
That's a good question these days... [/religion]
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on January 29, 2025, 02:13:07 PMQuote from: kernals12 on January 29, 2025, 02:00:28 PMQuote from: Max Rockatansky on January 29, 2025, 01:56:43 PMQuote from: kernals12 on January 29, 2025, 01:50:43 PMQuote from: Max Rockatansky on January 29, 2025, 01:46:37 PMBut is using GIS tools for your own private enjoyment going to get you in the door to an actual job which uses them?
Is the Pope Catholic?
Unless the aim is at entry-level there is a pretty big barrier to changing career fields in anything. Someone using GIS tools for fun probably isn't getting anyone a well paying related job. That doesn't mean it can't be built upon, but it would take time to develop a serious career.
So what? We all have to start somewhere
Edit: Also, it depends on your idea of "well paying".
So what is your point of contention? All I was pointing out was that anything but entry-level wasn't likely to be obtainable with just hobby experience. If that is worth it to Bandit, I don't see that as bad per se. It seems that you agree?
In the area Bandit lives I would imagine well paying is likely less than where I reside.
You questioned whether his hobby experience with GIS would get him an "actual job". Now you're moving to goalpost to "anything but entry level".
Quote from: kernals12 on January 29, 2025, 02:16:03 PMQuote from: Max Rockatansky on January 29, 2025, 02:13:07 PMQuote from: kernals12 on January 29, 2025, 02:00:28 PMQuote from: Max Rockatansky on January 29, 2025, 01:56:43 PMQuote from: kernals12 on January 29, 2025, 01:50:43 PMQuote from: Max Rockatansky on January 29, 2025, 01:46:37 PMBut is using GIS tools for your own private enjoyment going to get you in the door to an actual job which uses them?
Is the Pope Catholic?
Unless the aim is at entry-level there is a pretty big barrier to changing career fields in anything. Someone using GIS tools for fun probably isn't getting anyone a well paying related job. That doesn't mean it can't be built upon, but it would take time to develop a serious career.
So what? We all have to start somewhere
Edit: Also, it depends on your idea of "well paying".
So what is your point of contention? All I was pointing out was that anything but entry-level wasn't likely to be obtainable with just hobby experience. If that is worth it to Bandit, I don't see that as bad per se. It seems that you agree?
In the area Bandit lives I would imagine well paying is likely less than where I reside.
You questioned whether his hobby experience with GIS would get him an "actual job". Now you're moving to goalpost to "anything but entry level".
I would argue that hobby interests have a tough time getting an entry-level "career path" job. Just liking to dabble in coding isn't going to get you an entry level job at Google, for instance.
Given that I know two people with actual college degrees in GIS who are both working in unrelated fields because they weren't able to find anything that used their degree, applying for a GIS job with "I mess around with QGIS in my spare time" as your experience probably isn't too likely to be successful.
Quote from: Scott5114 on January 29, 2025, 02:30:56 PMGiven that I know two people with actual college degrees in GIS who are both working in unrelated fields because they weren't able to find anything that used their degree, applying for a GIS job with "I mess around with QGIS in my spare time" as your experience probably isn't too likely to be successful.
The fact that he's created maps should pique the interest of employers.
And he says he's worked with Python, that's also something.
My point is that he clearly has some skills and I think he should be able to find a job that will keep a roof over his head.
Quote from: kernals12 on January 29, 2025, 02:35:37 PMQuote from: Scott5114 on January 29, 2025, 02:30:56 PMGiven that I know two people with actual college degrees in GIS who are both working in unrelated fields because they weren't able to find anything that used their degree, applying for a GIS job with "I mess around with QGIS in my spare time" as your experience probably isn't too likely to be successful.
The fact that he's created maps should pique the interest of employers.
And he says he's worked with Python, that's also something.
My point is that he clearly has some skills and I think he should be able to find a job that will keep a roof over his head.
I'm not disagreeing with skills acquired. I would just argue they're not particularly marketable.
Quote from: JayhawkCO on January 29, 2025, 02:40:06 PMI'm not disagreeing with skills acquired. I would just argue they're not particularly marketable.
That's a problem I've always had. When I started college, I decided I would major in radio/TV. People warned me to pick something else, because they said radio/TV wasn't marketable. They thought I should major in some healthcare field, which I didn't have any interest in.
Quote from: bandit957 on January 29, 2025, 02:43:58 PMQuote from: JayhawkCO on January 29, 2025, 02:40:06 PMI'm not disagreeing with skills acquired. I would just argue they're not particularly marketable.
That's a problem I've always had. When I started college, I decided I would major in radio/TV. People warned me to pick something else, because they said radio/TV wasn't marketable. They thought I should major in some healthcare field, which I didn't have any interest in.
I understand not wanting to be in a field that doesn't interest you. If I'm completely honest, my current job bores the hell out of me (hence why I can spend time on AARoads), but I have a family and it's a means to an end.
Quote from: kernals12 on January 29, 2025, 02:16:03 PMQuote from: Max Rockatansky on January 29, 2025, 02:13:07 PMQuote from: kernals12 on January 29, 2025, 02:00:28 PMQuote from: Max Rockatansky on January 29, 2025, 01:56:43 PMQuote from: kernals12 on January 29, 2025, 01:50:43 PMQuote from: Max Rockatansky on January 29, 2025, 01:46:37 PMBut is using GIS tools for your own private enjoyment going to get you in the door to an actual job which uses them?
Is the Pope Catholic?
Unless the aim is at entry-level there is a pretty big barrier to changing career fields in anything. Someone using GIS tools for fun probably isn't getting anyone a well paying related job. That doesn't mean it can't be built upon, but it would take time to develop a serious career.
So what? We all have to start somewhere
Edit: Also, it depends on your idea of "well paying".
So what is your point of contention? All I was pointing out was that anything but entry-level wasn't likely to be obtainable with just hobby experience. If that is worth it to Bandit, I don't see that as bad per se. It seems that you agree?
In the area Bandit lives I would imagine well paying is likely less than where I reside.
You questioned whether his hobby experience with GIS would get him an "actual job". Now you're moving to goalpost to "anything but entry level".
Still a tall order even getting an entry level job in that scenario. You seem to think that it is a sure thing when a lot of us are telling you it isn't.
Quote from: kphoger on January 29, 2025, 02:14:33 PMQuote from: kernals12 on January 29, 2025, 01:50:43 PMIs the Pope Catholic?
That's a good question these days... [/religion]
Paraphrasing Ted Baxter, character on the Mary Tyler Moore show: "I'm pretty sure he is. I don't know about the last one though."
Quote from: GaryV on January 29, 2025, 03:36:38 PMParaphrasing Ted Baxter, character on the Mary Tyler Moore show: "I'm pretty sure he is. I don't know about the last one though."
John XXIII ain't got nothin' on this guy! :spin:
Quote from: kernals12 on January 29, 2025, 02:35:37 PMThe fact that he's created maps should pique the interest of employers.
It should but it doesn't.
Job postings these days are filled algorithmically in most large companies. If you don't meet the qualifications they have listed, your application gets filtered out before an actual human ever sees it.
And even if you have a human looking at it, if you have an applicant with a GIS degree, why would you turn them down for someone who is self-educated? You don't know what gaps a self-educated person might have in their knowledge.
Hell, that assumes that the jobs posted even exist. 8 in 10 recruiters post job listings with no intent to hire anyone (https://fortune.com/2024/08/19/recruiters-posting-ghost-jobs-problem-job-seekers/), for the purposes of making the company look like it's doing better than it actually is.
Quote from: Scott5114 on January 29, 2025, 04:20:39 PMQuote from: kernals12 on January 29, 2025, 02:35:37 PMThe fact that he's created maps should pique the interest of employers.
It should but it doesn't.
Job postings these days are filled algorithmically in most large companies. If you don't meet the qualifications they have listed, your application gets filtered out before an actual human ever sees it.
And even if you have a human looking at it, if you have an applicant with a GIS degree, why would you turn them down for someone who is self-educated? You don't know what gaps a self-educated person might have in their knowledge.
Hell, that assumes that the jobs posted even exist. 8 in 10 recruiters post job listings with no intent to hire anyone (https://fortune.com/2024/08/19/recruiters-posting-ghost-jobs-problem-job-seekers/), for the purposes of making the company look like it's doing better than it actually is.
I'm not disagreeing with the content of the post or the article, but it's worth pointing out that the statistic is intentionally misleading to the subset of our population that can't read. It's not 8 in 10
jobs are fake - not even close based on the article. It's that 8 in 10 recruiters, most of whom post many different jobs, have posted a fake job before or believes that their company has.
Quote from: kernals12 on January 29, 2025, 11:46:44 AMWhat do you mean by that?
I can never read this sentence in any other tone besides this
https://youtu.be/b8G0ni2TTac?si=CnbMU3-QvJ1YrHTx
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on January 29, 2025, 02:46:22 PMQuote from: kernals12 on January 29, 2025, 02:16:03 PMQuote from: Max Rockatansky on January 29, 2025, 02:13:07 PMQuote from: kernals12 on January 29, 2025, 02:00:28 PMQuote from: Max Rockatansky on January 29, 2025, 01:56:43 PMQuote from: kernals12 on January 29, 2025, 01:50:43 PMQuote from: Max Rockatansky on January 29, 2025, 01:46:37 PMBut is using GIS tools for your own private enjoyment going to get you in the door to an actual job which uses them?
Is the Pope Catholic?
Unless the aim is at entry-level there is a pretty big barrier to changing career fields in anything. Someone using GIS tools for fun probably isn't getting anyone a well paying related job. That doesn't mean it can't be built upon, but it would take time to develop a serious career.
So what? We all have to start somewhere
Edit: Also, it depends on your idea of "well paying".
So what is your point of contention? All I was pointing out was that anything but entry-level wasn't likely to be obtainable with just hobby experience. If that is worth it to Bandit, I don't see that as bad per se. It seems that you agree?
In the area Bandit lives I would imagine well paying is likely less than where I reside.
You questioned whether his hobby experience with GIS would get him an "actual job". Now you're moving to goalpost to "anything but entry level".
Still a tall order even getting an entry level job in that scenario. You seem to think that it is a sure thing when a lot of us are telling you it isn't.
Yeah sorry but a 51 year old without a degree and no history in the field as a professional isn't getting even an entry level GIS position because he dabbles in it as a hobby. I guarantee employers would rather hire a 22 year old straight out of college.
It reminds me of the guy here who marketed himself as a transportation consultant because he likes maps. The dude whose picture included a cigar.
Quote from: SEWIGuy on January 29, 2025, 04:53:29 PMQuote from: Max Rockatansky on January 29, 2025, 02:46:22 PMQuote from: kernals12 on January 29, 2025, 02:16:03 PMQuote from: Max Rockatansky on January 29, 2025, 02:13:07 PMQuote from: kernals12 on January 29, 2025, 02:00:28 PMQuote from: Max Rockatansky on January 29, 2025, 01:56:43 PMQuote from: kernals12 on January 29, 2025, 01:50:43 PMQuote from: Max Rockatansky on January 29, 2025, 01:46:37 PMBut is using GIS tools for your own private enjoyment going to get you in the door to an actual job which uses them?
Is the Pope Catholic?
Unless the aim is at entry-level there is a pretty big barrier to changing career fields in anything. Someone using GIS tools for fun probably isn't getting anyone a well paying related job. That doesn't mean it can't be built upon, but it would take time to develop a serious career.
So what? We all have to start somewhere
Edit: Also, it depends on your idea of "well paying".
So what is your point of contention? All I was pointing out was that anything but entry-level wasn't likely to be obtainable with just hobby experience. If that is worth it to Bandit, I don't see that as bad per se. It seems that you agree?
In the area Bandit lives I would imagine well paying is likely less than where I reside.
You questioned whether his hobby experience with GIS would get him an "actual job". Now you're moving to goalpost to "anything but entry level".
Still a tall order even getting an entry level job in that scenario. You seem to think that it is a sure thing when a lot of us are telling you it isn't.
Yeah sorry but a 51 year old without a degree and no history in the field as a professional isn't getting even an entry level GIS position because he dabbles in it as a hobby. I guarantee employers would rather hire a 22 year old straight out of college.
It reminds me of the guy here who marketed himself as a transportation consultant because he likes maps. The dude whose picture included a cigar.
Ah yes, Fiddler something. He got a hard rebuff on some Facebook road groups for much of the same also.
Quote from: SEWIGuy on January 29, 2025, 04:53:29 PMQuote from: Max Rockatansky on January 29, 2025, 02:46:22 PMQuote from: kernals12 on January 29, 2025, 02:16:03 PMQuote from: Max Rockatansky on January 29, 2025, 02:13:07 PMQuote from: kernals12 on January 29, 2025, 02:00:28 PMQuote from: Max Rockatansky on January 29, 2025, 01:56:43 PMQuote from: kernals12 on January 29, 2025, 01:50:43 PMQuote from: Max Rockatansky on January 29, 2025, 01:46:37 PMBut is using GIS tools for your own private enjoyment going to get you in the door to an actual job which uses them?
Is the Pope Catholic?
Unless the aim is at entry-level there is a pretty big barrier to changing career fields in anything. Someone using GIS tools for fun probably isn't getting anyone a well paying related job. That doesn't mean it can't be built upon, but it would take time to develop a serious career.
So what? We all have to start somewhere
Edit: Also, it depends on your idea of "well paying".
So what is your point of contention? All I was pointing out was that anything but entry-level wasn't likely to be obtainable with just hobby experience. If that is worth it to Bandit, I don't see that as bad per se. It seems that you agree?
In the area Bandit lives I would imagine well paying is likely less than where I reside.
You questioned whether his hobby experience with GIS would get him an "actual job". Now you're moving to goalpost to "anything but entry level".
Still a tall order even getting an entry level job in that scenario. You seem to think that it is a sure thing when a lot of us are telling you it isn't.
Yeah sorry but a 51 year old without a degree and no history in the field as a professional isn't getting even an entry level GIS position because he dabbles in it as a hobby. I guarantee employers would rather hire a 22 year old straight out of college.
It reminds me of the guy here who marketed himself as a transportation consultant because he likes maps. The dude whose picture included a cigar.
I'd hardly call spending days at a time on such projects as "dabbling"
Dabbling or not, this wasn't something close to professional:
https://fiddling-with-maps.webador.com/what-s-inside
Quote from: kernals12 on January 29, 2025, 04:57:22 PMQuote from: SEWIGuy on January 29, 2025, 04:53:29 PMQuote from: Max Rockatansky on January 29, 2025, 02:46:22 PMQuote from: kernals12 on January 29, 2025, 02:16:03 PMQuote from: Max Rockatansky on January 29, 2025, 02:13:07 PMQuote from: kernals12 on January 29, 2025, 02:00:28 PMQuote from: Max Rockatansky on January 29, 2025, 01:56:43 PMQuote from: kernals12 on January 29, 2025, 01:50:43 PMQuote from: Max Rockatansky on January 29, 2025, 01:46:37 PMBut is using GIS tools for your own private enjoyment going to get you in the door to an actual job which uses them?
Is the Pope Catholic?
Unless the aim is at entry-level there is a pretty big barrier to changing career fields in anything. Someone using GIS tools for fun probably isn't getting anyone a well paying related job. That doesn't mean it can't be built upon, but it would take time to develop a serious career.
So what? We all have to start somewhere
Edit: Also, it depends on your idea of "well paying".
So what is your point of contention? All I was pointing out was that anything but entry-level wasn't likely to be obtainable with just hobby experience. If that is worth it to Bandit, I don't see that as bad per se. It seems that you agree?
In the area Bandit lives I would imagine well paying is likely less than where I reside.
You questioned whether his hobby experience with GIS would get him an "actual job". Now you're moving to goalpost to "anything but entry level".
Still a tall order even getting an entry level job in that scenario. You seem to think that it is a sure thing when a lot of us are telling you it isn't.
Yeah sorry but a 51 year old without a degree and no history in the field as a professional isn't getting even an entry level GIS position because he dabbles in it as a hobby. I guarantee employers would rather hire a 22 year old straight out of college.
It reminds me of the guy here who marketed himself as a transportation consultant because he likes maps. The dude whose picture included a cigar.
I'd hardly call spending days at a time on such projects as "dabbling"
From an employer's point of view, it's just a hobbyist's dabbling.
I think everyone can agree that spending days on end on a self-directed project means that someone is likely to have more skill at whatever they're working on than someone who has no experience at all at it. But that's usually not enough when you're competing with someone who actually has paid experience in the field, or a degree in it, because those are likely to confer knowledge that isn't obvious to someone who just picked it up for personal enrichment.
Case in point, one of the people I know with a GIS degree made a map once. I commented on his font choices, and he mentioned offhand that the convention he was taught in school was that wide-area features like counties and states should be labeled with serif fonts, water features should get italic serif fonts, and other types of features get sans-serif fonts. Makes sense, but that's not something you'd be guaranteed to pick up just by doing your own QGIS project.
Quote from: Scott5114 on January 29, 2025, 05:38:11 PMI think everyone can agree that spending days on end on a self-directed project means that someone is likely to have more skill at whatever they're working on than someone who has no experience at all at it. But that's usually not enough when you're competing with someone who actually has paid experience in the field, or a degree in it, because those are likely to confer knowledge that isn't obvious to someone who just picked it up for personal enrichment.
Case in point, one of the people I know with a GIS degree made a map once. I commented on his font choices, and he mentioned offhand that the convention he was taught in school was that wide-area features like counties and states should be labeled with serif fonts, water features should get italic serif fonts, and other types of features get sans-serif fonts. Makes sense, but that's not something you'd be guaranteed to pick up just by doing your own QGIS project.
Exactly. Furthermore someone who has graduated with a GIS degree has oftentimes worked as an intern, or gathered some type of experience, that would indicate how they manage projects, handle themselves in a team environment, etc.
I am certainly not saying that bandit couldn't do the job. But that employers aren't going to take a chance on hiring someone with his background when they would likely be numerous applicants with work experience and a degree in the field.
At 51, I was given an awful lot of money by my company to take early retirement. Enough to live on if we were very frugal, but not enough to fund regular retirement. I took the offer for several reasons.
So I went looking. I realized that even with my decades of experience, what I was doing was mostly self-taught. I'd modernized the old FORTRAN programs we used and converted them to run in MSAccess database, which I had picked up on my own at home.
I went to a "not a job fair" networking thing at Lawrence Tech University. They encouraged me to look at their graduate program. Naw, I didn't really want to go back to school, did I? But the more I looked at it, and realizing that I'd need provable skills that weren't just picked up on my own, and the fact that it was a very, very good deal, I went back to school for 2 years while we economized at home to live on the early retirement pension. It served me well - I was able to work for another decade, and was able to put a lot into my retirement funds.
All I can say is that, if you meet the minimum requirements, getting a job with the State of NY is now easier than in the robot-resume-reading private sector. Never put anyone through more than one interview and have never seen the need.