The treasury department just announced today that they will stop making new pennies so no more new pennies will go into circulation after 2026. Just curious how everyone feels about this. I frankly don't care too much. If businesses are being told to round up to the nearest five cents, I don't see that as much of an issue if pennies cost four cents to make.
Full support. I really don't see why we use pennies anymore. I was in Paris where everything was rounded to the nearest 10 euro cents (they have a 0.20 coin instead of a 0.25), and I really liked it.
Of note: places that round to the nearest 5¢ for cash purchases, such as Canada, Australia, and Switzerland, round whichever way is closer, not always up. In New Zealand, which rounds to the nearest 10¢, 5 rounds down, not up.
I was always taught that with a .5 figure that needs rounding, you round to the even number. Both 3.5 and 4.5 would round to 4, for example.
I'm Ok with it. Pennies have long outlived their usefulness as currency, even before the emergence of e-commerce. Besides, there are so many in circulation they'll never completely go away.
It also doesn't make sense to keep them if it cost 4 cents to make them but they're only 1 cent, it seems like they should've been done away with awhile ago.
Let's get rid of nickels and quarters, too, and round to ten cents. We can have dimes, half-dollars, and dollar coins. That's my dream.
Quote from: hbelkins on May 22, 2025, 01:44:39 PMI was always taught that with a .5 figure that needs rounding, you round to the even number. Both 3.5 and 4.5 would round to 4, for example.
I've never heard that, but I like the logic in that it evens things out over the long-term.
Quote from: SectorZ on May 22, 2025, 01:59:10 PMQuote from: hbelkins on May 22, 2025, 01:44:39 PMI was always taught that with a .5 figure that needs rounding, you round to the even number. Both 3.5 and 4.5 would round to 4, for example.
I've never heard that, but I like the logic in that it evens things out over the long-term.
I only heard that in college, otherwise told to always round up in that case.
Also, will stores still end all prices with .99?
Quote from: Big John on May 22, 2025, 02:13:21 PMAlso, will stores still end all prices with .99?
My experience with Paris (which was the nearest was 0.10) is no. There were a few that ended in 5, and exactly one place had a .99; it was an internal gift shop next to the Mona Lisa in the Louvre. Most prices were to the nearest 0.1, though, and many only listed one decimal place.
I can't remember what they did in Québec City when I was there in 2019.
I believe that if places do switch, they'll switch to .95, not the whole dollar. I've seen some restaurants already do that, not that it really matters since you're not paying the exact amount listed because of tax and tip.
Quote from: Big John on May 22, 2025, 02:13:21 PMAlso, will stores still end all prices with .99?
If so, will stores round each individual item or round the total?
Quote from: Big John on May 22, 2025, 02:13:21 PMAlso, will stores still end all prices with .99?
Probably. After all, gas prices still end in nine-tenths of a cent.
When I was in Italy, most grocery prices were rounded to the nearest 10 lire, and the total was paid in the nearest 50 or 100 lire. (There was one store that would use 10- and 20-lira coins for change to cut back on the total amount given out.)
*pinches pennies*
I'm in full support. It's about time.
Quote from: Big John on May 22, 2025, 02:13:21 PMAlso, will stores still end all prices with .99?
They'll stop as soon as gas stations stop ending all their prices with .099, I imagine.
Quote from: hbelkins on May 22, 2025, 01:44:39 PMI was always taught that with a .5 figure that needs rounding, you round to the even number. Both 3.5 and 4.5 would round to 4, for example.
Interesting. I was always taught to round up when I was in grade school, but some instructors in college used the "even number rule".
When Canada phased out its penny in 2012, banks were at some point ordered to stop providing pennies to retailers and other customers (so they couldn't replenish the pennies in their drawers), and to instead sell to the government any pennies they had on hand or received from customers. Those measures did a pretty good job of quickly hoovering up the pennies still in circulation in Canada. But especially in rural areas of Canada, well into the 2010s I still saw some "leave a penny, take a penny" trays in stores, perhaps as a favor to old-fashioned customers slow to give up on the penny.
Canada's official guidance to retailers was to round the total sales price (after taxes) up or down to the nearest nickel for cash transactions, but no rounding for credit transactions.
I don't know if the U.S. Treasury will be content to let the penny supply in circulation slowly dry up, or will like Canada try to speed up the process of making pennies go away.
Quote from: SectorZ on May 22, 2025, 01:58:13 PMLet's get rid of nickels and quarters, too, and round to ten cents. We can have dimes, half-dollars, and dollar coins. That's my dream.
I'd get rid off all coins except nickels, quarters and dollars. You can make every combination from $0.05 up through $1.95 with only 8 coins.
Getting rid of $1 bills should be next.
Quote from: kphoger on May 22, 2025, 02:37:06 PMI'm in full support. It's about time.
Quote from: Big John on May 22, 2025, 02:13:21 PMAlso, will stores still end all prices with .99?
They'll stop as soon as gas stations stop ending all their prices with .099, I imagine.
The U.S. dollar is still legally divided into cents and mills even though no coin denominated in mills has circulated since the half cent was withdrawn (I believe they stopped minting those in 1857 or so). There's no real reason why those amounts can't still be used for electronic transactions.
Quote from: Big John on May 22, 2025, 02:13:21 PMAlso, will stores still end all prices with .99?
Why not? The sales tax will make it 1.05 or 1.06 or 1.072 or whatever the local rates are.
Quote from: GaryV on May 22, 2025, 04:27:33 PMQuote from: Big John on May 22, 2025, 02:13:21 PMAlso, will stores still end all prices with .99?
Why not? The sales tax will make it 1.05 or 1.06 or 1.072 or whatever the local rates are.
Only in places where that item is taxed.
Quote from: NWI_Irish96 on May 22, 2025, 03:57:27 PMI'd get rid off all coins except nickels, quarters and dollars. You can make every combination from $0.05 up through $1.95 with only 8 coins.
If only nickels weren't an even bigger money-sap to produce than pennies are.
Quote from: NWI_Irish96 on May 22, 2025, 03:57:27 PMGetting rid of $1 bills should be next.
Count me in. I've wanted that for years.
Quote from: kphoger on May 22, 2025, 04:41:36 PMIf only nickels weren't an even bigger money-sap to produce than pennies are.
Other countries have changed to steel or aluminum. We could do the same.
Quote from: hotdogPi on May 22, 2025, 04:48:11 PMQuote from: kphoger on May 22, 2025, 04:41:36 PMIf only nickels weren't an even bigger money-sap to produce than pennies are.
Other countries have changed to steel or aluminum. We could do the same.
Like the 1943 steel penny?
Quote from: NWI_Irish96 on May 22, 2025, 03:57:27 PMQuote from: SectorZ on May 22, 2025, 01:58:13 PMLet's get rid of nickels and quarters, too, and round to ten cents. We can have dimes, half-dollars, and dollar coins. That's my dream.
I'd get rid off all coins except nickels, quarters and dollars. You can make every combination from $0.05 up through $1.95 with only 8 coins.
As someone who worked with large amounts of cash on a daily basis, you're a monster. You must be stopped.
Quote from: NWI_Irish96 on May 22, 2025, 03:57:27 PMGetting rid of $1 bills should be next.
This would be illegal—the company that makes the bill paper got their Senator to pass a law that prohibits the government from changing the $1 bill in any way. (This is why its design doesn't match the other denominations.)
Over here I've refused to carry any coins less than €0.05 for a while now. When I get anything lower as change, I set them apart until I can exchange them for a larger coin.
I believe it was one of our senators from Massachusetts who saw to it that no changes could come to the dollar bill. The paper is manufactured by the Crane Paper Company in Dalton.
I barely use cash anymore, so I have no real reason to care.
Quote from: NWI_Irish96 on May 22, 2025, 03:57:27 PMGetting rid of $1 bills should be next.
Quote from: Scott5114 on May 22, 2025, 05:20:30 PMThis would be illegal—the company that makes the bill paper got their Senator to pass a law that prohibits the government from changing the $1 bill in any way. (This is why its design doesn't match the other denominations.)
The bill (https://www.govinfo.gov/content/pkg/PLAW-114publ113/pdf/PLAW-114publ113.pdf) (888-page .pdf warning) only prohibits redesigning the dollar bill. It doesn't say they can't stop printing them or remove them from circulation.
Quote from: Consolidated Appropriations Act, 2016Public Law 114-113 — 114th Congress
Division E — Financial Services and General Government Appropriations Act, 2016
Title I — Department of the Treasury
Administrative Provisions — Department of the Treasury
Sec. 117 — None of the funds appropriated in this Act or otherwise available to the Department of the Treasury or the Bureau of Engraving and Printing may be used to redesign the $1 Federal Reserve note.
Quote from: kphoger on May 22, 2025, 04:41:36 PMQuote from: NWI_Irish96 on May 22, 2025, 03:57:27 PMI'd get rid off all coins except nickels, quarters and dollars. You can make every combination from $0.05 up through $1.95 with only 8 coins.
If only nickels weren't an even bigger money-sap to produce than pennies are.
Quote from: NWI_Irish96 on May 22, 2025, 03:57:27 PMGetting rid of $1 bills should be next.
Count me in. I've wanted that for years.
As I have said in here before, I'd go with a slate of coins for 25¢, $1, $2 and $5 and banknotes for $10 on up (subject to further inflation-related changes).
Right now, 'Pennies' and Nickels cannot be made at a profit by the feds and the local coin laundry (the perfect place to get ones' money cleaned!) would LOVE the higher-valued coins.
Mike
I doubt anybody would care if the price of any product they purchase were changed to nearest 25¢. In fact, I suspect most of them wouldn't even notice.
Quote from: Ted$8roadFan on Today at 05:31:16 AMI believe it was one of our senators from Massachusetts who saw to it that no changes could come to the dollar bill. The paper is manufactured by the Crane Paper Company in Dalton.
The (late) Teddy Kennedy?
Mike
I've had two local pizza/sub places of the "mainly takeout/delivery" type round down to the nearest 50¢ when I pay cash, even if up is closer. The owner of my local Magic: the Gathering store also rounds to the nearest dollar when I pay cash for events, although it's sometimes the opposite direction if the rounding has gone up or down the last few times I've paid.
I support rounding to the nearest 25¢. It might be a bit too much of a gap; I would prefer 10¢ rounding, but this is impossible because we have a coin that's not a multiple of 10¢.
Most things that have a price difference of less than 25¢ are fairly arbitrary; for example, if a 48 oz tub of yogurt is $2.89 and a 48 oz tub of applesauce is $2.79, they could both be made $2.75 or $3.00, or even $3.00 for the yogurt and $2.75 for the applesauce, without much of an issue. This assumes prices are rounded per item, too, which they might or might not be.
Quote from: NWI_Irish96 on May 22, 2025, 03:57:27 PMI'd get rid off all coins except nickels, quarters and dollars. You can make every combination from $0.05 up through $1.95 with only 8 coins.
Quote from: Scott5114 on May 22, 2025, 05:20:30 PMAs someone who worked with large amounts of cash on a daily basis, you're a monster. You must be stopped.
And yes, I fully expect a detailed reply from you on this, but...
Will you please explain how that would be bad? I get that 45¢ would be one quarter and four nickels instead of one quarter and two dimes, but that doesn't really seem like a big deal to me—certainly no worse than 44¢ right now being seven coins.
(By the way, Google AI thinks you can make 44¢ with only six coins: 1 quarter, 1 dime, 1 nickel, 3 pennies.)
I wonder if perhaps the next administration of a different party than the current administration would reverse that decision and start minting the penny again?
Sorta makes me wish I hadn't cashed in all those pennies I had saved a couple of years ago.
Quote from: hbelkins on Today at 12:08:11 PMI wonder if perhaps the next administration of a different party than the current administration would reverse that decision and start minting the penny again?
Sorta makes me wish I hadn't cashed in all those pennies I had saved a couple of years ago.
I know just about everything today is partisan, but I don't think this is. The only people truly in favor of still minting pennies are those from Illinois, regardless of party.
Quote from: hbelkins on Today at 12:08:11 PMSorta makes me wish I hadn't cashed in all those pennies I had saved a couple of years ago.
Why? Do you imagine they'd be worth a fortune soon?
Canadian pennies haven't seen a spike in value the way, say, wheat pennies in the US have. The same is true with pretty much every recently discontinued coin.
I wouldn't foresee pennies being vacuumed out of circulation like in the US or prices of each individual item rounded (at least, not in most places). Maybe if Congress passed a law that would happen, but this is just Trump not wanting to make more, so it's likely the existing ones will continue to circulate because to get rid of them would make this change permanent enough to trigger the lobbying that's prevented it all these years. If/when pennies get scarce, businesses will likely round naturally to the nearest nickel for cash purchases since that's the same method that's used to round to the nearest dollar for taxes. As for prices, sales tax means that everything won't be nice and neat regardless, so why should prices round when that won't mean much? I could see maybe in jurisdictions that don't have sales tax, but not elsewhere, unless it's something priced nationally. The countries where prices changed have their taxes built in to the listed prices, so there's no percentage applied at the end.
Quote from: kphoger on Today at 10:51:04 AMQuote from: NWI_Irish96 on May 22, 2025, 03:57:27 PMGetting rid of $1 bills should be next.
Quote from: Scott5114 on May 22, 2025, 05:20:30 PMThis would be illegal—the company that makes the bill paper got their Senator to pass a law that prohibits the government from changing the $1 bill in any way. (This is why its design doesn't match the other denominations.)
The bill (https://www.govinfo.gov/content/pkg/PLAW-114publ113/pdf/PLAW-114publ113.pdf) (888-page .pdf warning) only prohibits redesigning the dollar bill. It doesn't say they can't stop printing them or remove them from circulation.
Quote from: Consolidated Appropriations Act, 2016Public Law 114-113 — 114th Congress
Division E — Financial Services and General Government Appropriations Act, 2016
Title I — Department of the Treasury
Administrative Provisions — Department of the Treasury
Sec. 117 — None of the funds appropriated in this Act or otherwise available to the Department of the Treasury or the Bureau of Engraving and Printing may be used to redesign the $1 Federal Reserve note.
I get why they don't want the bill discontinued in favor of a coin (like the rest of the world has done), but why keep the bill's design locked in time?
Quote from: vdeane on Today at 12:46:39 PMAs for prices, sales tax means that everything won't be nice and neat regardless, so why should prices round when that won't mean much? I could see maybe in jurisdictions that don't have sales tax, but not elsewhere, unless it's something priced nationally. The countries where prices changed have their taxes built in to the listed prices, so there's no percentage applied at the end.
Groceries are untaxed in most states.
Quote from: hotdogPi on Today at 12:49:43 PMGroceries are untaxed in most states
Sure, but you buy one bottle of dish washing liquid, and there you go.
An interesting conundrum would be that if sales taxes need to round off, who would eat that? The State sure doesn't want to.
Quote from: GaryV on Today at 01:13:03 PMQuote from: hotdogPi on Today at 12:49:43 PMGroceries are untaxed in most states
Sure, but you buy one bottle of dish washing liquid, and there you go.
An interesting conundrum would be that if sales taxes need to round off, who would eat that? The State sure doesn't want to.
One of the issues is that states may have laws rounding purchases or sales taxes to the nearest penny. As with many things being pushed thru currently, either no thought or no care is being given to issues that may arise.
What will outlast the other:
US PENNY
or
JC PENNEY?
Let the betting begin...
Quote from: NWI_Irish96 on Today at 12:18:07 PMQuote from: hbelkins on Today at 12:08:11 PMI wonder if perhaps the next administration of a different party than the current administration would reverse that decision and start minting the penny again?
Sorta makes me wish I hadn't cashed in all those pennies I had saved a couple of years ago.
I know just about everything today is partisan, but I don't think this is. The only people truly in favor of still minting pennies are those from Illinois, regardless of party.
Also Tennessee (where the maker of the blanks is from).
Mike
Quote from: hotdogPi on Today at 12:24:41 PMCanadian pennies haven't seen a spike in value the way, say, wheat pennies in the US have. The same is true with pretty much every recently discontinued coin.
Common USA 'Wheaties' (1936 dated and later) in normal circulated condition are now just under 3.25¢ each - melt value for all bronzies (made until late 1982).
Mike
Quote from: GaryV on Today at 01:13:03 PMAn interesting conundrum would be that if sales taxes need to round off, who would eat that? The State sure doesn't want to.
What does the bolded phrase mean?
Just set the rate card to round the final tax total up/down to the nearest increment of what is currently in circulation.
Mike
I don't understand what the phrase means to begin with. How do sales taxes 'round off'?
Quote from: kphoger on Today at 03:11:05 PMI don't understand what the phrase means to begin with. How do sales taxes 'round off'?
If the result is not a factor of five, round up...
Well, the tax is whatever the percent rate is of the total of all taxable items, rounded up/down to the nearest 1¢. No 'Pennies' in circulation? then set it to round up/down to the nearest 5¢.
Mike
Quote from: Rothman on Today at 03:12:14 PMIf the result is not a factor of five, round up...
So, exactly how sales tax
already rounds off?
Sales tax in my city is 7.5%. If I go to the gas station and buy a drink that costs $1.79, the tax I owe should be 13.425¢. But, of course, that 0.425¢ gets rounded off.
The State sure doesn't want to eat that!
Oh wow, the US is doing what we did back in 2012. For what it's worth, we round to the nearest multiple of 5, and this includes taxes, but nowadays people mostly use debit/credit so it doesn't matter all that often, as those aren't rounded.
Quote from: kphoger on Today at 03:24:03 PMQuote from: Rothman on Today at 03:12:14 PMIf the result is not a factor of five, round up...
So, exactly how sales tax already rounds off?
Sales tax in my city is 7.5%. If I go to the gas station and buy a drink that costs $1.79, the tax I owe should be 13.425¢. But, of course, that 0.425¢ gets rounded off. The State sure doesn't want to eat that!
Now, your total bill is $1.92. 'After', it will be $1.90. Pretty easy to figure out.
Mike
Quote from: kphoger on Today at 03:24:03 PMSo, exactly how sales tax already rounds off?
Sales tax in my city is 7.5%. If I go to the gas station and buy a drink that costs $1.79, the tax I owe should be 13.425¢. But, of course, that 0.425¢ gets rounded off. The State sure doesn't want to eat that!
Quote from: mgk920 on Today at 03:35:18 PMNow, your total bill is $1.92. 'After', it will be $1.90. Pretty easy to figure out.
Yep. And if that drink is $1.89 instead, then the theoretical tax due is currently 14.175¢. Of course, that gets rounded off too.
Now, my total is $2.03. 'After', it will be $2.05. Pretty easy to figure out.
Two cents down in one instance, two cents up in the other.
Quote from: kphoger on Today at 10:51:04 AMThe bill (https://www.govinfo.gov/content/pkg/PLAW-114publ113/pdf/PLAW-114publ113.pdf) (888-page .pdf warning) only prohibits redesigning the dollar bill. It doesn't say they can't stop printing them or remove them from circulation.
The law in question far predates that—it was passed during the early 2000s in response to the Sacajawea dollar. (I've dug it up once before, but it was long enough ago I can't quote chapter and verse.)
Quote from: kphoger on Today at 12:01:31 PMWill you please explain how that would be bad? I get that 45¢ would be one quarter and four nickels instead of one quarter and two dimes, but that doesn't really seem like a big deal to me—certainly no worse than 44¢ right now being seven coins.
Because a roll of coins contains either 40 or 50 pieces. (For nickels, it's 40.) So you only need ten transactions involving four nickels and you've run through a whole roll, which means you have to close the window to get more nickels, which means customers start screaming. So much screaming. I can still hear it when I drift off to sleep sometimes...
Most cash drawers have enough space for a roll or two of extra change, but not enough space to hold enough rolls of nickels to get you through an 8 hour shift if you're using 4 of them per transaction.
With the current coin system, you will never have a transaction where you give away more than one nickel, meaning that your worst case scenario is having to get nickels every 40 transactions. You will also never have a transaction where you give away more than two dimes, meaning that your worst case scenario is having to get dimes every 25 transactions (50 dimes to the roll).
So, then... is there any way in which nickels don't suck?
Quote from: kphoger on Today at 04:01:58 PMSo, then... is there any way in which nickels don't suck?
Nope. They were always my least favorite coin. (Which is sad, because I sort of like Thomas Jefferson.)
(In case you were wondering what my least favorite denomination of paper money is—and I know you're
all on tenterhooks for that information—probably the $50, followed close by the $5, but the latter is entirely due to Fed mismanagement rather than anything inherently wrong with the denomination itself.)
Make $1 a coin, ramp up production of $2 bills so western Massachusetts doesn't get mad, and you'll still have plenty of Jeffersons.
All of the arguments against killing the penny I've ever heard (not just this thread) only mention non-problems or very solvable problems.
I also wonder if I shouldn't have cashed in huge quantities of pennies, as I have done in recent months.
Quote from: Jim on Today at 04:09:48 PMI also wonder if I shouldn't have cashed in huge quantities of pennies
Why?
Quote from: kphoger on Today at 04:34:09 PMQuote from: Jim on Today at 04:09:48 PMI also wonder if I shouldn't have cashed in huge quantities of pennies
Why?
They probably won't be, but maybe they'd be worth more than a 1 cent each at some point. In any case, it probably isn't going to make or break my future financial security.