Yes, I know the Federal Government maintains these roads and not the states, so they won't be in the official state logs. Frankly, nobody cares. It's confusing to have US 20 and US 191 just vanish going into Yellowstone. Especially in Yellowstone with its many interchanges throughout the park, the US highways should be signed.
This is something that varies between, and sometimes within, states. For example, Colorado seems to take the position that US 34 exists within Rocky Mountain NP. California law insists that CA 120 disappears at the west boundary of Yosemite NP, then reappears on the other side. (But there are some obviously fake CA 120 markers within the park, to guide tourists to exits from the park.) Parts of CA 190 and CA 178 exist within Death Valley NP, though I think the highways were there before the park was created or expanded, and the Park Service probably doesn't mind keeping them in the state system. I-40 passes through Petrified Forest NP in Arizona, perhaps for similar reasons.
Yosemite and Yellowstone are among the oldest NPs, which might explain their poorly/un-signed highways.
Quote from: oscar on September 19, 2025, 07:10:44 PMThis is something that varies between, and sometimes within, states. For example, Colorado seems to take the position that US 34 exists within Rocky Mountain NP. California law insists that CA 120 disappears at the west boundary of Yosemite NP, then reappears on the other side. (But there are some obviously fake CA 120 markers within the park, to guide tourists to exits from the park.) Parts of CA 190 and CA 178 exist within Death Valley NP, though I think the highways were there before the park was created or expanded, and the Park Service probably doesn't mind keeping them in the state system. I-40 passes through Petrified Forest NP in Arizona, perhaps for similar reasons.
Yosemite and Yellowstone are among the oldest NPs, which might explain their poorly/un-signed highways.
Death Valley was also only a national monument until 1994, plus there is no enterence toll.
Quote from: oscar on September 19, 2025, 07:10:44 PMThis is something that varies between, and sometimes within, states. For example, Colorado seems to take the position that US 34 exists within Rocky Mountain NP. California law insists that CA 120 disappears at the west boundary of Yosemite NP, then reappears on the other side. (But there are some obviously fake CA 120 markers within the park, to guide tourists to exits from the park.) Parts of CA 190 and CA 178 exist within Death Valley NP, though I think the highways were there before the park was created or expanded, and the Park Service probably doesn't mind keeping them in the state system. I-40 passes through Petrified Forest NP in Arizona, perhaps for similar reasons.
I suspect there's some legal reason that Interstate highways can't lose their numbers and signage if they happen to pass through a National Park. The Mojave Reserve avoids the problem by having its border run right along the I-15 ROW.
This is really just a specific case of the more general idea that route number signage should be purely for navigational purposes, and not for indicating maintenance responsibility. But with National Parks, Monuments, etc., the elegant solution would be to have nice brown signs styled like either US or state highway shields, so that you'd still know you're on the right road, but also know you're in the park.
In the case of Yosemite and SR 120, it highlights that Caltrans only does the snow removal up to the park boundaries, and the National Park Service does that work within the park. Same thing with Lassen Volcanic National Park and SR 89.
something something Calrog something something federal highways
In all seriousness, though, slap some "TO" assemblies and you're golden.
Quote from: gonealookin on September 19, 2025, 08:19:08 PMIn the case of Yosemite and SR 120, it highlights that Caltrans only does the snow removal up to the park boundaries, and the National Park Service does that work within the park. Same thing with Lassen Volcanic National Park and SR 89.
Who benefits from that knowledge? The Caltrans plow driver, who needs to know when to turn around?
Probably is more interesting when they aren't signed or have weird off-spec signage.
Quote from: pderocco on September 19, 2025, 08:25:17 PMQuote from: gonealookin on September 19, 2025, 08:19:08 PMIn the case of Yosemite and SR 120, it highlights that Caltrans only does the snow removal up to the park boundaries, and the National Park Service does that work within the park. Same thing with Lassen Volcanic National Park and SR 89.
Who benefits from that knowledge? The Caltrans plow driver, who needs to know when to turn around?
It gives Caltrans a good response to the people who are mad that they can't enter Yosemite from the east via SR 120 and the Tioga Road early in the season. Caltrans usually has its work done fairly early, well before Memorial Day, but Memorial Day is about the earliest NPS ever gets their section open. I'm not blaming NPS for that; they have something like 40 miles of roadway above 8000 feet elevation to clear, while Caltrans has just a few miles above that elevation (the Caltrans stretch is very prone to rockslides and resulting road damage though).
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on September 19, 2025, 07:17:16 PMDeath Valley was also only a national monument until 1994, plus there is no enterence toll.
The park does charge an entrance fee. But payment at the unmanned kiosks (no gates) is on an honor system. There are many dishonorable visitors, as well as some who visit only remote areas of the park far away from the kiosks.
To be fair I'm not paying a NPS entrance fee if I'm staying on free to use CA 190. Then again I have an active Annual National Park Pass.
Quote from: oscar on September 19, 2025, 08:57:12 PMQuote from: Roadgeekteen on September 19, 2025, 07:17:16 PMDeath Valley was also only a national monument until 1994, plus there is no enterence toll.
The park does charge an entrance fee. But payment at the unmanned kiosks (no gates) is on an honor system. There are many dishonorable visitors, as well as some who visit only remote areas of the park far away from the kiosks.
I mean they don't charge to drive through without stopping. Great Smoky Mountains is like that, also with a 15 dollar parking pass.
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on September 19, 2025, 06:36:17 PMYes, I know the Federal Government maintains these roads and not the states, so they won't be in the official state logs. Frankly, nobody cares. It's confusing to have US 20 and US 191 just vanish going into Yellowstone. Especially in Yellowstone with its many interchanges throughout the park, the US highways should be signed.
I'm sure those designations would be hidden, to ensure continuity. But having them signed through the park would be even better.
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on September 19, 2025, 06:36:17 PMYes, I know the Federal Government maintains these roads and not the states, so they won't be in the official state logs. Frankly, nobody cares. It's confusing to have US 20 and US 191 just vanish going into Yellowstone. Especially in Yellowstone with its many interchanges throughout the park, the US highways should be signed.
In the case of Yellowstone, as US-20 does not exist within the park, then you'd still have to decide which of
the (https://maps.app.goo.gl/1JD9oonEU583Wr7X7)
two (https://maps.app.goo.gl/Y9EMXwqrqmLRujic6) non-US-20 routes to sign as US-20.
Quote from: kphoger on September 19, 2025, 09:52:55 PMQuote from: Roadgeekteen on September 19, 2025, 06:36:17 PMYes, I know the Federal Government maintains these roads and not the states, so they won't be in the official state logs. Frankly, nobody cares. It's confusing to have US 20 and US 191 just vanish going into Yellowstone. Especially in Yellowstone with its many interchanges throughout the park, the US highways should be signed.
In the case of Yellowstone, as US-20 does not exist within the park, then you'd still have to decide which of the (https://maps.app.goo.gl/1JD9oonEU583Wr7X7) two (https://maps.app.goo.gl/Y9EMXwqrqmLRujic6) non-US-20 routes to sign as US-20.
It seems like the southern route is the unofficial routing, though the northern one is actually shorter.
Quote from: oscar on September 19, 2025, 08:57:12 PMQuote from: Roadgeekteen on September 19, 2025, 07:17:16 PMDeath Valley was also only a national monument until 1994, plus there is no enterence toll.
The park does charge an entrance fee. But payment at the unmanned kiosks (no gates) is on an honor system. There are many dishonorable visitors, as well as some who visit only remote areas of the park far away from the kiosks.
Besides, if you're on 190 and just driving through, you should feel absolutely entitled to do so without paying a cent.
I think the only way fees like this get enforced is by patrols checking parked cars. If you don't park, you're never checked.
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on September 19, 2025, 07:17:16 PMQuote from: oscar on September 19, 2025, 07:10:44 PMThis is something that varies between, and sometimes within, states. For example, Colorado seems to take the position that US 34 exists within Rocky Mountain NP. California law insists that CA 120 disappears at the west boundary of Yosemite NP, then reappears on the other side. (But there are some obviously fake CA 120 markers within the park, to guide tourists to exits from the park.) Parts of CA 190 and CA 178 exist within Death Valley NP, though I think the highways were there before the park was created or expanded, and the Park Service probably doesn't mind keeping them in the state system. I-40 passes through Petrified Forest NP in Arizona, perhaps for similar reasons.
Yosemite and Yellowstone are among the oldest NPs, which might explain their poorly/un-signed highways.
Death Valley was also only a national monument until 1994, plus there is no enterence toll.
Yup. As I learned, it's just honor system. You're supposed to buy a pass, but it's not really enforced.
I bought the America the Beautiful annual pass, though.
Quote from: pderocco on September 19, 2025, 10:10:07 PMQuote from: oscar on September 19, 2025, 08:57:12 PMQuote from: Roadgeekteen on September 19, 2025, 07:17:16 PMDeath Valley was also only a national monument until 1994, plus there is no enterence toll.
The park does charge an entrance fee. But payment at the unmanned kiosks (no gates) is on an honor system. There are many dishonorable visitors, as well as some who visit only remote areas of the park far away from the kiosks.
Besides, if you're on 190 and just driving through, you should file absolutely entitled to do so without paying a cent.
I think the only way fees like this get enforced is by patrols checking parked cars. If you don't park, you're never checked.
Does anyone know if CA 190 is maintained by Caltrans or the National Park Service?
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on September 19, 2025, 10:11:20 PMQuote from: pderocco on September 19, 2025, 10:10:07 PMQuote from: oscar on September 19, 2025, 08:57:12 PMQuote from: Roadgeekteen on September 19, 2025, 07:17:16 PMDeath Valley was also only a national monument until 1994, plus there is no enterence toll.
The park does charge an entrance fee. But payment at the unmanned kiosks (no gates) is on an honor system. There are many dishonorable visitors, as well as some who visit only remote areas of the park far away from the kiosks.
Besides, if you're on 190 and just driving through, you should file absolutely entitled to do so without paying a cent.
I think the only way fees like this get enforced is by patrols checking parked cars. If you don't park, you're never checked.
Does anyone know if CA 190 is maintained by Caltrans or the National Park Service?
Caltrans
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on September 19, 2025, 10:14:21 PMQuote from: Roadgeekteen on September 19, 2025, 10:11:20 PMQuote from: pderocco on September 19, 2025, 10:10:07 PMQuote from: oscar on September 19, 2025, 08:57:12 PMQuote from: Roadgeekteen on September 19, 2025, 07:17:16 PMDeath Valley was also only a national monument until 1994, plus there is no enterence toll.
The park does charge an entrance fee. But payment at the unmanned kiosks (no gates) is on an honor system. There are many dishonorable visitors, as well as some who visit only remote areas of the park far away from the kiosks.
Besides, if you're on 190 and just driving through, you should file absolutely entitled to do so without paying a cent.
I think the only way fees like this get enforced is by patrols checking parked cars. If you don't park, you're never checked.
Does anyone know if CA 190 is maintained by Caltrans or the National Park Service?
Caltrans
That makes sense as the road was there before the park. I believe the NPS built CA 120 through Yosemite.
I do like the suggestion of specialized shields to maintain navigational assistance but also distinguish maintenance responsibility. Caltrans could send NPS some blank spade shields, and NPS could paint them brown and put the arcing letters "YOSEMITE N.P." where "CALIFORNIA" usually goes above the "120". Makes everybody happy!
To keep things inconsistent, OR 62 is officially routed and signed through Crater Lake NP.
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on September 19, 2025, 10:16:10 PMQuote from: Max Rockatansky on September 19, 2025, 10:14:21 PMQuote from: Roadgeekteen on September 19, 2025, 10:11:20 PMQuote from: pderocco on September 19, 2025, 10:10:07 PMQuote from: oscar on September 19, 2025, 08:57:12 PMQuote from: Roadgeekteen on September 19, 2025, 07:17:16 PMDeath Valley was also only a national monument until 1994, plus there is no enterence toll.
The park does charge an entrance fee. But payment at the unmanned kiosks (no gates) is on an honor system. There are many dishonorable visitors, as well as some who visit only remote areas of the park far away from the kiosks.
Besides, if you're on 190 and just driving through, you should file absolutely entitled to do so without paying a cent.
I think the only way fees like this get enforced is by patrols checking parked cars. If you don't park, you're never checked.
Does anyone know if CA 190 is maintained by Caltrans or the National Park Service?
Caltrans
That makes sense as the road was there before the park. I believe the NPS built CA 120 through Yosemite.
The original alignment predates the NPS but was developed by the state and Federal government. Rather than repeat what I wrote probably six times I'll just link this:
https://www.gribblenation.org/2021/11/paper-highways-us-route-6-to-san.html?m=1
I have a blog somewhere else that goes into way more detail on the modern Tioga Road inside Yosemite.
Quote from: gonealookin on September 19, 2025, 10:24:59 PMI do like the suggestion of specialized shields to maintain navigational assistance but also distinguish maintenance responsibility. Caltrans could send NPS some blank spade shields, and NPS could paint them brown and put the arcing letters "YOSEMITE N.P." where "CALIFORNIA" usually goes above the "120". Makes everybody happy!
Honestly, I feel like that's still unnecessarily confusing. Just post the normal signs; motorists don't need to know who is paving the road. Some state highways are town-maintained already.
Quote from: gonealookin on September 19, 2025, 10:24:59 PMI do like the suggestion of specialized shields to maintain navigational assistance but also distinguish maintenance responsibility. Caltrans could send NPS some blank spade shields, and NPS could paint them brown and put the arcing letters "YOSEMITE N.P." where "CALIFORNIA" usually goes above the "120". Makes everybody happy!
Shields (independently mounted), 10" numerals
(https://i.imgur.com/pkzDwFW.png)(https://i.imgur.com/z3IWSO3.png)(https://i.imgur.com/Go5XRnx.png)
Markers (guide signs), 10" numerals
(https://i.imgur.com/sjs6j0n.png)(https://i.imgur.com/cbsNLgQ.png)(https://i.imgur.com/SDqfMX5.png)
Black-on-yellow is my idea for marking route alignments that are not state maintained, including county routes and national parks. (Personally, never liked the pentagon much).
I guess US route shields could be yellow, too.
Interestingly yellow was one of the front runner colors for the 1964 California spade coloring. It tested well in foggy and snowy conditions.
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on September 19, 2025, 10:44:38 PMQuote from: gonealookin on September 19, 2025, 10:24:59 PMI do like the suggestion of specialized shields to maintain navigational assistance but also distinguish maintenance responsibility. Caltrans could send NPS some blank spade shields, and NPS could paint them brown and put the arcing letters "YOSEMITE N.P." where "CALIFORNIA" usually goes above the "120". Makes everybody happy!
Honestly, I feel like that's still unnecessarily confusing. Just post the normal signs; motorists don't need to know who is paving the road. Some state highways are town-maintained already.
I'm fine this myself, but I think realistically a middle ground approach of different colors schemes is more likely. I like yellow or brown. Other colors like purple already have an unofficial purpose, like tolled roads.
Quote from: Quillz on September 19, 2025, 10:10:51 PMQuote from: Roadgeekteen on September 19, 2025, 07:17:16 PMQuote from: oscar on September 19, 2025, 07:10:44 PMThis is something that varies between, and sometimes within, states. For example, Colorado seems to take the position that US 34 exists within Rocky Mountain NP. California law insists that CA 120 disappears at the west boundary of Yosemite NP, then reappears on the other side. (But there are some obviously fake CA 120 markers within the park, to guide tourists to exits from the park.) Parts of CA 190 and CA 178 exist within Death Valley NP, though I think the highways were there before the park was created or expanded, and the Park Service probably doesn't mind keeping them in the state system. I-40 passes through Petrified Forest NP in Arizona, perhaps for similar reasons.
Yosemite and Yellowstone are among the oldest NPs, which might explain their poorly/un-signed highways.
Death Valley was also only a national monument until 1994, plus there is no enterence toll.
Yup. As I learned, it's just honor system. You're supposed to buy a pass, but it's not really enforced.
I bought the America the Beautiful annual pass, though.
I haven't had to deal with this since I got my senior pass. Now I just waltz into any US park for free. One of the two things good about getting old.
Quote from: gonealookin on September 19, 2025, 10:24:59 PMI do like the suggestion of specialized shields to maintain navigational assistance but also distinguish maintenance responsibility. Caltrans could send NPS some blank spade shields, and NPS could paint them brown and put the arcing letters "YOSEMITE N.P." where "CALIFORNIA" usually goes above the "120". Makes everybody happy!
Amusingly Kings Canyon National Park just used actual Caltrans spec CA 180 shields in Grant Grove. That has always been a gap in state highway maintenance and apparently has always been signed.
Quote from: pderocco on September 20, 2025, 12:53:27 AMQuote from: Quillz on September 19, 2025, 10:10:51 PMQuote from: Roadgeekteen on September 19, 2025, 07:17:16 PMQuote from: oscar on September 19, 2025, 07:10:44 PMThis is something that varies between, and sometimes within, states. For example, Colorado seems to take the position that US 34 exists within Rocky Mountain NP. California law insists that CA 120 disappears at the west boundary of Yosemite NP, then reappears on the other side. (But there are some obviously fake CA 120 markers within the park, to guide tourists to exits from the park.) Parts of CA 190 and CA 178 exist within Death Valley NP, though I think the highways were there before the park was created or expanded, and the Park Service probably doesn't mind keeping them in the state system. I-40 passes through Petrified Forest NP in Arizona, perhaps for similar reasons.
Yosemite and Yellowstone are among the oldest NPs, which might explain their poorly/un-signed highways.
Death Valley was also only a national monument until 1994, plus there is no enterence toll.
Yup. As I learned, it's just honor system. You're supposed to buy a pass, but it's not really enforced.
I bought the America the Beautiful annual pass, though.
I haven't had to deal with this since I got my senior pass. Now I just waltz into any US park for free. One of the two things good about getting old.
Might be able to do state parks and national monuments, too. That's what the pass covers.
Quote from: Quillz on September 20, 2025, 01:05:18 AMQuote from: pderocco on September 20, 2025, 12:53:27 AMQuote from: Quillz on September 19, 2025, 10:10:51 PMQuote from: Roadgeekteen on September 19, 2025, 07:17:16 PMQuote from: oscar on September 19, 2025, 07:10:44 PMThis is something that varies between, and sometimes within, states. For example, Colorado seems to take the position that US 34 exists within Rocky Mountain NP. California law insists that CA 120 disappears at the west boundary of Yosemite NP, then reappears on the other side. (But there are some obviously fake CA 120 markers within the park, to guide tourists to exits from the park.) Parts of CA 190 and CA 178 exist within Death Valley NP, though I think the highways were there before the park was created or expanded, and the Park Service probably doesn't mind keeping them in the state system. I-40 passes through Petrified Forest NP in Arizona, perhaps for similar reasons.
Yosemite and Yellowstone are among the oldest NPs, which might explain their poorly/un-signed highways.
Death Valley was also only a national monument until 1994, plus there is no enterence toll.
Yup. As I learned, it's just honor system. You're supposed to buy a pass, but it's not really enforced.
I bought the America the Beautiful annual pass, though.
I haven't had to deal with this since I got my senior pass. Now I just waltz into any US park for free. One of the two things good about getting old.
Might be able to do state parks and national monuments, too. That's what the pass covers.
I think it cover monuments and I think National Forests. State parks are under a completely different juristiction and is not covered by the pass.
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on September 20, 2025, 01:40:57 AMQuote from: Quillz on September 20, 2025, 01:05:18 AMQuote from: pderocco on September 20, 2025, 12:53:27 AMQuote from: Quillz on September 19, 2025, 10:10:51 PMQuote from: Roadgeekteen on September 19, 2025, 07:17:16 PMQuote from: oscar on September 19, 2025, 07:10:44 PMThis is something that varies between, and sometimes within, states. For example, Colorado seems to take the position that US 34 exists within Rocky Mountain NP. California law insists that CA 120 disappears at the west boundary of Yosemite NP, then reappears on the other side. (But there are some obviously fake CA 120 markers within the park, to guide tourists to exits from the park.) Parts of CA 190 and CA 178 exist within Death Valley NP, though I think the highways were there before the park was created or expanded, and the Park Service probably doesn't mind keeping them in the state system. I-40 passes through Petrified Forest NP in Arizona, perhaps for similar reasons.
Yosemite and Yellowstone are among the oldest NPs, which might explain their poorly/un-signed highways.
Death Valley was also only a national monument until 1994, plus there is no enterence toll.
Yup. As I learned, it's just honor system. You're supposed to buy a pass, but it's not really enforced.
I bought the America the Beautiful annual pass, though.
I haven't had to deal with this since I got my senior pass. Now I just waltz into any US park for free. One of the two things good about getting old.
Might be able to do state parks and national monuments, too. That's what the pass covers.
I think it cover monuments and I think National Forests. State parks are under a completely different juristiction and is not covered by the pass.
It also covers BLM lands that have fees, except if there's an event going on.
I am surprised that nobody has mentioned the possibility that highways are intentionally not signed through parks to deter thru traffic from cutting through the park unnecessarily.
Quote from: Scott5114 on September 20, 2025, 04:44:06 AMI am surprised that nobody has mentioned the possibility that highways are intentionally not signed through parks to deter thru traffic from cutting through the park unnecessarily.
Charging money for entry is a much bigger deterrent, and I doubt that such use of the roads is ever a significant percentage of the traffic. I've driven 190 through Death Valley a couple times just to get across it, but I suspect there are 100 times as many tourists who are there to visit it.
Quote from: pderocco on September 20, 2025, 04:56:33 AMQuote from: Scott5114 on September 20, 2025, 04:44:06 AMI am surprised that nobody has mentioned the possibility that highways are intentionally not signed through parks to deter thru traffic from cutting through the park unnecessarily.
Charging money for entry is a much bigger deterrent, and I doubt that such use of the roads is ever a significant percentage of the traffic. I've driven 190 through Death Valley a couple times just to get across it, but I suspect there are 100 times as many tourists who are there to visit it.
That monster grade on Towne Pass west of Death Valley probably is what actually scares off truckers.
Quote from: Scott5114 on September 20, 2025, 04:44:06 AMI am surprised that nobody has mentioned the possibility that highways are intentionally not signed through parks to deter thru traffic from cutting through the park unnecessarily.
This is why the NPS had all US 441 signage removed in Great Smoky Mtns NP, to deter through traffic. All commercial traffic is prohibited, and extra thru traffic would clog up Newfound Gap Rd much worse than it already can get.
Although, the road still is officially US 441 still. just no signs.
Quote from: Scott5114 on September 20, 2025, 04:44:06 AMI am surprised that nobody has mentioned the possibility that highways are intentionally not signed through parks to deter thru traffic from cutting through the park unnecessarily.
There are some traffic movements though that are impossible to do practically without going through the park. How else are you supposed to go from Rexburg to Cody without going through Yellowstone? In the days of GPS however people will just be routed through there anyway.
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on September 20, 2025, 06:11:31 PMQuote from: Scott5114 on September 20, 2025, 04:44:06 AMI am surprised that nobody has mentioned the possibility that highways are intentionally not signed through parks to deter thru traffic from cutting through the park unnecessarily.
There are some traffic movements though that are impossible to do practically without going through the park. How else are you supposed to go from Rexburg to Cody without going through Yellowstone? In the days of GPS however people will just be routed through there anyway.
Heh, for one year the locals around Yosemite got the park to issue timed tickets to cross the Tioga Road during the summer reservation period. Apparently, it wasn't popular with the Park Service folks, and they dropped it this year. Essentially if you wanted to get to Mono County and didn't have a reservation one had to detour via CA 108 or some other road south of CA 190.
Then again, I'm not sure why a local couldn't just get out of bed and get inside Yosemite before the reservation system started at 7 AM. My wife tells me frequently how wrong I am about this; I chalk it up to people being lazy.
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on September 20, 2025, 06:29:31 PMQuote from: Roadgeekteen on September 20, 2025, 06:11:31 PMQuote from: Scott5114 on September 20, 2025, 04:44:06 AMI am surprised that nobody has mentioned the possibility that highways are intentionally not signed through parks to deter thru traffic from cutting through the park unnecessarily.
There are some traffic movements though that are impossible to do practically without going through the park. How else are you supposed to go from Rexburg to Cody without going through Yellowstone? In the days of GPS however people will just be routed through there anyway.
Heh, for one year the locals around Yosemite got the park to issue timed tickets to cross the Tioga Road during the summer reservation period. Apparently, it wasn't popular with the Park Service folks, and they dropped it this year. Essentially if you wanted to get to Mono County and didn't have a reservation one had to detour via CA 108 or some other road south of CA 190.
Then again, I'm not sure why a local couldn't just get out of bed and get inside Yosemite before the reservation system started at 7 AM. My wife tells me frequently how wrong I am about this; I chalk it up to people being lazy.
People need to travel at all times of the day, not everyone can leave before 7 AM. And some people might be coming from even further.
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on September 20, 2025, 06:30:52 PMQuote from: Max Rockatansky on September 20, 2025, 06:29:31 PMQuote from: Roadgeekteen on September 20, 2025, 06:11:31 PMQuote from: Scott5114 on September 20, 2025, 04:44:06 AMI am surprised that nobody has mentioned the possibility that highways are intentionally not signed through parks to deter thru traffic from cutting through the park unnecessarily.
There are some traffic movements though that are impossible to do practically without going through the park. How else are you supposed to go from Rexburg to Cody without going through Yellowstone? In the days of GPS however people will just be routed through there anyway.
Heh, for one year the locals around Yosemite got the park to issue timed tickets to cross the Tioga Road during the summer reservation period. Apparently, it wasn't popular with the Park Service folks, and they dropped it this year. Essentially if you wanted to get to Mono County and didn't have a reservation one had to detour via CA 108 or some other road south of CA 190.
Then again, I'm not sure why a local couldn't just get out of bed and get inside Yosemite before the reservation system started at 7 AM. My wife tells me frequently how wrong I am about this; I chalk it up to people being lazy.
People need to travel at all times of the day, not everyone can leave before 7 AM. And some people might be coming from even further.
Guess you're taking the long way to Mammoth Lakes then. To clarify, you needed to be "in the park" before 7 AM.
Then again, you could be a total badass instead by taking Chowchilla Mountain Road or the Coulterville Road into Yosemite. There aren't any manned gates on either of those roads.
Quote from: pderocco on September 19, 2025, 10:10:07 PMQuote from: oscar on September 19, 2025, 08:57:12 PMQuote from: Roadgeekteen on September 19, 2025, 07:17:16 PMDeath Valley was also only a national monument until 1994, plus there is no enterence toll.
The park does charge an entrance fee. But payment at the unmanned kiosks (no gates) is on an honor system. There are many dishonorable visitors, as well as some who visit only remote areas of the park far away from the kiosks.
Besides, if you're on 190 and just driving through, you should feel absolutely entitled to do so without paying a cent.
I think the only way fees like this get enforced is by patrols checking parked cars. If you don't park, you're never checked.
If the park is maintaining the road, the park needs to get some money for doing so.
Quote from: pderocco on September 20, 2025, 12:53:27 AMQuote from: Quillz on September 19, 2025, 10:10:51 PMQuote from: Roadgeekteen on September 19, 2025, 07:17:16 PMQuote from: oscar on September 19, 2025, 07:10:44 PMThis is something that varies between, and sometimes within, states. For example, Colorado seems to take the position that US 34 exists within Rocky Mountain NP. California law insists that CA 120 disappears at the west boundary of Yosemite NP, then reappears on the other side. (But there are some obviously fake CA 120 markers within the park, to guide tourists to exits from the park.) Parts of CA 190 and CA 178 exist within Death Valley NP, though I think the highways were there before the park was created or expanded, and the Park Service probably doesn't mind keeping them in the state system. I-40 passes through Petrified Forest NP in Arizona, perhaps for similar reasons.
Yosemite and Yellowstone are among the oldest NPs, which might explain their poorly/un-signed highways.
Death Valley was also only a national monument until 1994, plus there is no enterence toll.
Yup. As I learned, it's just honor system. You're supposed to buy a pass, but it's not really enforced.
I bought the America the Beautiful annual pass, though.
I haven't had to deal with this since I got my senior pass. Now I just waltz into any US park for free. One of the two things good about getting old.
What's the other one?
Quote from: kkt on September 20, 2025, 08:00:13 PMQuote from: pderocco on September 19, 2025, 10:10:07 PMQuote from: oscar on September 19, 2025, 08:57:12 PMQuote from: Roadgeekteen on September 19, 2025, 07:17:16 PMDeath Valley was also only a national monument until 1994, plus there is no enterence toll.
The park does charge an entrance fee. But payment at the unmanned kiosks (no gates) is on an honor system. There are many dishonorable visitors, as well as some who visit only remote areas of the park far away from the kiosks.
Besides, if you're on 190 and just driving through, you should feel absolutely entitled to do so without paying a cent.
I think the only way fees like this get enforced is by patrols checking parked cars. If you don't park, you're never checked.
If the park is maintaining the road, the park needs to get some money for doing so.
They aren't in the case of CA 190.
Quote from: Scott5114 on September 20, 2025, 04:44:06 AMI am surprised that nobody has mentioned the possibility that highways are intentionally not signed through parks to deter thru traffic from cutting through the park unnecessarily.
Isn't that what the entrance fees are for?
Quote from: Quillz on September 19, 2025, 10:10:51 PMQuote from: Roadgeekteen on September 19, 2025, 07:17:16 PMQuote from: oscar on September 19, 2025, 07:10:44 PMThis is something that varies between, and sometimes within, states. For example, Colorado seems to take the position that US 34 exists within Rocky Mountain NP. California law insists that CA 120 disappears at the west boundary of Yosemite NP, then reappears on the other side. (But there are some obviously fake CA 120 markers within the park, to guide tourists to exits from the park.) Parts of CA 190 and CA 178 exist within Death Valley NP, though I think the highways were there before the park was created or expanded, and the Park Service probably doesn't mind keeping them in the state system. I-40 passes through Petrified Forest NP in Arizona, perhaps for similar reasons.
Yosemite and Yellowstone are among the oldest NPs, which might explain their poorly/un-signed highways.
Death Valley was also only a national monument until 1994, plus there is no enterence toll.
Yup. As I learned, it's just honor system. You're supposed to buy a pass, but it's not really enforced.
I bought the America the Beautiful annual pass, though.
Visit With Honor
Quote from: Quillz on September 20, 2025, 09:35:26 PMQuote from: Scott5114 on September 20, 2025, 04:44:06 AMI am surprised that nobody has mentioned the possibility that highways are intentionally not signed through parks to deter thru traffic from cutting through the park unnecessarily.
Isn't that what the entrance fees are for?
Some parks don't have entrance fees, but yes, that should discourage normal traffic. Though many people who live near parks probably have annual passes already.
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on September 20, 2025, 11:10:47 PMQuote from: Quillz on September 20, 2025, 09:35:26 PMQuote from: Scott5114 on September 20, 2025, 04:44:06 AMI am surprised that nobody has mentioned the possibility that highways are intentionally not signed through parks to deter thru traffic from cutting through the park unnecessarily.
Isn't that what the entrance fees are for?
Some parks don't have entrance fees, but yes, that should discourage normal traffic. Though many people who live near parks probably have annual passes already.
Might be a broad assumption. Most people I'm friends within Oakhurst and Mariposa rarely visit Yosemite. My own wife had never been to Kings Canyon or Sequoia despite being an hour away until I took her in 2017.
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on September 20, 2025, 11:20:28 PMQuote from: Roadgeekteen on September 20, 2025, 11:10:47 PMQuote from: Quillz on September 20, 2025, 09:35:26 PMQuote from: Scott5114 on September 20, 2025, 04:44:06 AMI am surprised that nobody has mentioned the possibility that highways are intentionally not signed through parks to deter thru traffic from cutting through the park unnecessarily.
Isn't that what the entrance fees are for?
Some parks don't have entrance fees, but yes, that should discourage normal traffic. Though many people who live near parks probably have annual passes already.
Might be a broad assumption. Most people I'm friends within Oakhurst and Mariposa rarely visit Yosemite. My own wife had never been to Kings Canyon or Sequoia despite being an hour away until I took her in 2017.
My father mainly lived in Trenton, NJ until he was a teenager and never saw the Liberty Bell (Independence NHP).
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on September 20, 2025, 11:20:28 PMQuote from: Roadgeekteen on September 20, 2025, 11:10:47 PMQuote from: Quillz on September 20, 2025, 09:35:26 PMQuote from: Scott5114 on September 20, 2025, 04:44:06 AMI am surprised that nobody has mentioned the possibility that highways are intentionally not signed through parks to deter thru traffic from cutting through the park unnecessarily.
Isn't that what the entrance fees are for?
Some parks don't have entrance fees, but yes, that should discourage normal traffic. Though many people who live near parks probably have annual passes already.
Might be a broad assumption. Most people I'm friends within Oakhurst and Mariposa rarely visit Yosemite. My own wife had never been to Kings Canyon or Sequoia despite being an hour away until I took her in 2017.
I mean yeah. Sounds crazy for me, but some people just aren't outdoors people.
Quote from: Quillz on September 20, 2025, 09:35:26 PMQuote from: Scott5114 on September 20, 2025, 04:44:06 AMI am surprised that nobody has mentioned the possibility that highways are intentionally not signed through parks to deter thru traffic from cutting through the park unnecessarily.
Isn't that what the entrance fees are for?
Entrance fees require someone there to collect them to be a deterrent. That can be easier said than done.
I cut through Lake Mead NRA during a clinch trip, and stopped at the payment booth at the end of NV 147 to find nobody there. I flagged down a ranger to ask how to pay, and he said the A/C had been out in the booth all summer, so they weren't collecting fees at that entrance. So that wouldn't have been much of a deterrent if I had been wanting to use the park to bypass I-11 or something.
Quote from: Scott5114 on September 21, 2025, 02:01:22 AMQuote from: Quillz on September 20, 2025, 09:35:26 PMQuote from: Scott5114 on September 20, 2025, 04:44:06 AMI am surprised that nobody has mentioned the possibility that highways are intentionally not signed through parks to deter thru traffic from cutting through the park unnecessarily.
Isn't that what the entrance fees are for?
Entrance fees require someone there to collect them to be a deterrent. That can be easier said than done.
I cut through Lake Mead NRA during a clinch trip, and stopped at the payment booth at the end of NV 147 to find nobody there. I flagged down a ranger to ask how to pay, and he said the A/C had been out in the booth all summer, so they weren't collecting fees at that entrance. So that wouldn't have been much of a deterrent if I had been wanting to use the park to bypass I-11 or something.
When I was at Yellowstone, in the middle of the night, nobody was there collecting fees. Probably the ammount of lost revenue at the time would be so low that it wasn't worth paying someone to be there.
Quote from: pderocco on September 19, 2025, 07:30:49 PMThis is really just a specific case of the more general idea that route number signage should be purely for navigational purposes, and not for indicating maintenance responsibility. But with National Parks, Monuments, etc., the elegant solution would be to have nice brown signs styled like either US or state highway shields, so that you'd still know you're on the right road, but also know you're in the park.
Could not agree more. This is why route shields exist. I have said before, and I will die on this roundabout, that the typical motorist does not care and does not need to know who maintains the road. If that needs to be known for whatever reason, it's something that can be found out later.
The one that always comes to mind for me is CA-190, specifically the Sherman Pass Highway. It is almost completely unknown to the typical motorist, and yet it's one of the few crossings of the southern Sierra. Even I tend to forget how to navigate it, as there is zero signage. All I needed are some generic black-on-white "190" shields. The way it is, you have to remember to take Western Divide Highway, turn here, turn there... Make sure you make the right turn in Kennedy Meadows. Without knowing ahead of time, it's hard to navigate here.
Quote from: Quillz on September 21, 2025, 02:28:17 AM...the typical motorist does not care and does not need to know who maintains the road...
The number of people on r/vegaslocals who will gripe about the city not fixing things on NV 147 or NDOT not fixing things on Sahara seems to indicate that isn't true.
Quote from: kkt on September 20, 2025, 08:06:27 PMQuote from: pderocco on September 20, 2025, 12:53:27 AMQuote from: Quillz on September 19, 2025, 10:10:51 PMQuote from: Roadgeekteen on September 19, 2025, 07:17:16 PMQuote from: oscar on September 19, 2025, 07:10:44 PMThis is something that varies between, and sometimes within, states. For example, Colorado seems to take the position that US 34 exists within Rocky Mountain NP. California law insists that CA 120 disappears at the west boundary of Yosemite NP, then reappears on the other side. (But there are some obviously fake CA 120 markers within the park, to guide tourists to exits from the park.) Parts of CA 190 and CA 178 exist within Death Valley NP, though I think the highways were there before the park was created or expanded, and the Park Service probably doesn't mind keeping them in the state system. I-40 passes through Petrified Forest NP in Arizona, perhaps for similar reasons.
Yosemite and Yellowstone are among the oldest NPs, which might explain their poorly/un-signed highways.
Death Valley was also only a national monument until 1994, plus there is no enterence toll.
Yup. As I learned, it's just honor system. You're supposed to buy a pass, but it's not really enforced.
I bought the America the Beautiful annual pass, though.
I haven't had to deal with this since I got my senior pass. Now I just waltz into any US park for free. One of the two things good about getting old.
What's the other one?
Um, I forget.
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on September 20, 2025, 11:20:28 PMMost people I'm friends within Oakhurst and Mariposa rarely visit Yosemite. My own wife had never been to Kings Canyon or Sequoia despite being an hour away until I took her in 2017.
I've noticed that in my own life. I grew up in Massachusetts, and there are so many places around there that I never went to, like Nantucket. That's because I could always do it some other time, so there was no rush. If you're going far from home, though, you plan to see as many sights as possible while you're there.
Quote from: pderocco on September 21, 2025, 03:44:28 AMQuote from: Max Rockatansky on September 20, 2025, 11:20:28 PMMost people I'm friends within Oakhurst and Mariposa rarely visit Yosemite. My own wife had never been to Kings Canyon or Sequoia despite being an hour away until I took her in 2017.
I've noticed that in my own life. I grew up in Massachusetts, and there are so many places around there that I never went to, like Nantucket. That's because I could always do it some other time, so there was no rush. If you're going far from home, though, you plan to see as many sights as possible while you're there.
Same with my parents in regards to Mackinaw Island or the Upper Peninsula of Michigan. We went lots of famous places around the country when I was a kid but not those of our own state.
Quote from: Scott5114 on September 21, 2025, 02:45:22 AMQuote from: Quillz on September 21, 2025, 02:28:17 AM...the typical motorist does not care and does not need to know who maintains the road...
The number of people on r/vegaslocals who will gripe about the city not fixing things on NV 147 or NDOT not fixing things on Sahara seems to indicate that isn't true.
Perhaps an "end state maintenance" sign would help.
The first example that came to my mind is that I-94 is fully marked through Theodore Roosevelt N.P. in North Dakota. Also, does any numbered highway enter the boundaries of Cuyahoga Valley N.P. in Ohio?
Mike
Quote from: mgk920 on September 21, 2025, 12:12:36 PMdoes any numbered highway enter the boundaries of Cuyahoga Valley N.P. in Ohio?
Um, yeah. I-80 and I-271 for example.
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on September 21, 2025, 11:57:28 AMQuote from: Scott5114 on September 21, 2025, 02:45:22 AMQuote from: Quillz on September 21, 2025, 02:28:17 AM...the typical motorist does not care and does not need to know who maintains the road...
The number of people on r/vegaslocals who will gripe about the city not fixing things on NV 147 or NDOT not fixing things on Sahara seems to indicate that isn't true.
Perhaps an "end state maintenance" sign would help.
Bold to assume normals would even read or understand what that means. Currently the NV 147 Postmiles give way at the end of NDOT maintenance and give way to NPS style Mile Markers.
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on September 21, 2025, 01:15:48 PMQuote from: Roadgeekteen on September 21, 2025, 11:57:28 AMQuote from: Scott5114 on September 21, 2025, 02:45:22 AMQuote from: Quillz on September 21, 2025, 02:28:17 AM...the typical motorist does not care and does not need to know who maintains the road...
The number of people on r/vegaslocals who will gripe about the city not fixing things on NV 147 or NDOT not fixing things on Sahara seems to indicate that isn't true.
Perhaps an "end state maintenance" sign would help.
Bold to assume normals would even read or understand what that means. Currently the NV 147 Postmiles give way at the end of NDOT maintenance and give way to NPS style Mile Markers.
But it could give the state an excuse when people complain to them.
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on September 21, 2025, 01:57:43 PMQuote from: Max Rockatansky on September 21, 2025, 01:15:48 PMQuote from: Roadgeekteen on September 21, 2025, 11:57:28 AMQuote from: Scott5114 on September 21, 2025, 02:45:22 AMQuote from: Quillz on September 21, 2025, 02:28:17 AM...the typical motorist does not care and does not need to know who maintains the road...
The number of people on r/vegaslocals who will gripe about the city not fixing things on NV 147 or NDOT not fixing things on Sahara seems to indicate that isn't true.
Perhaps an "end state maintenance" sign would help.
Bold to assume normals would even read or understand what that means. Currently the NV 147 Postmiles give way at the end of NDOT maintenance and give way to NPS style Mile Markers.
But it could give the state an excuse when people complain to them.
Why would NDOT need an excuse for a segment of highway they don't maintain?
Quote from: pderocco on September 21, 2025, 03:44:28 AMQuote from: Max Rockatansky on September 20, 2025, 11:20:28 PMMost people I'm friends within Oakhurst and Mariposa rarely visit Yosemite. My own wife had never been to Kings Canyon or Sequoia despite being an hour away until I took her in 2017.
I've noticed that in my own life. I grew up in Massachusetts, and there are so many places around there that I never went to, like Nantucket. That's because I could always do it some other time, so there was no rush. If you're going far from home, though, you plan to see as many sights as possible while you're there.
When I visit Alaska, I love looking at the northern lights. When I talk to people who live in Alaska, they rarely go outside to look at it, because it's just a normal thing and not that big a deal anymore. I guess living near a national park would be similar, if Yosemite is only an hour drive away for you, you probably won't think much of it.
Like for me, I go to the beach a lot. I don't consider it a big deal. But I always forget a lot of people live in the Midwest and some have never seen the ocean or a beach in their entire life.
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on September 21, 2025, 11:57:28 AMQuote from: Scott5114 on September 21, 2025, 02:45:22 AMQuote from: Quillz on September 21, 2025, 02:28:17 AM...the typical motorist does not care and does not need to know who maintains the road...
The number of people on r/vegaslocals who will gripe about the city not fixing things on NV 147 or NDOT not fixing things on Sahara seems to indicate that isn't true.
Perhaps an "end state maintenance" sign would help.
I've seen that in a few places, but it's for rural local roads, usually to indicate that even if it's some kind of thru road (they usually aren't), it's not really intended for main traffic. And usually the signs will just say "NO STATE MAINTENANCE" or w/e.
I'd say combining that with some kind of special shield that indicates non-state control (and perhaps even combined with the postmile system mentioned above) could be a good way to do things. Then if/when issues arise, some state organization can claim no responsibility since it's not their segment.
But that's why I feel it's getting overly technical at that point. Just sign the road for navigation first and foremost. The simpler the better.
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on September 21, 2025, 02:09:45 PMQuote from: Roadgeekteen on September 21, 2025, 01:57:43 PMQuote from: Max Rockatansky on September 21, 2025, 01:15:48 PMQuote from: Roadgeekteen on September 21, 2025, 11:57:28 AMQuote from: Scott5114 on September 21, 2025, 02:45:22 AMQuote from: Quillz on September 21, 2025, 02:28:17 AM...the typical motorist does not care and does not need to know who maintains the road...
The number of people on r/vegaslocals who will gripe about the city not fixing things on NV 147 or NDOT not fixing things on Sahara seems to indicate that isn't true.
Perhaps an "end state maintenance" sign would help.
Bold to assume normals would even read or understand what that means. Currently the NV 147 Postmiles give way at the end of NDOT maintenance and give way to NPS style Mile Markers.
But it could give the state an excuse when people complain to them.
Why would NDOT need an excuse for a segment of highway they don't maintain?
Probably less "excuse" and more "correct answer that can also be demonstrated on the road." And it makes sense, because when people complain about stuff, they always will blame whoever makes the product. Like in software design, anytime something goes wrong with a third-party iPhone app, Apple gets blamed, even though they don't make the app. That's just how people are. So NDOT will get blamed for any road issues, even the ones they don't have any authority to maintain.
Quote from: Quillz on September 21, 2025, 02:36:11 PMQuote from: Max Rockatansky on September 21, 2025, 02:09:45 PMQuote from: Roadgeekteen on September 21, 2025, 01:57:43 PMQuote from: Max Rockatansky on September 21, 2025, 01:15:48 PMQuote from: Roadgeekteen on September 21, 2025, 11:57:28 AMQuote from: Scott5114 on September 21, 2025, 02:45:22 AMQuote from: Quillz on September 21, 2025, 02:28:17 AM...the typical motorist does not care and does not need to know who maintains the road...
The number of people on r/vegaslocals who will gripe about the city not fixing things on NV 147 or NDOT not fixing things on Sahara seems to indicate that isn't true.
Perhaps an "end state maintenance" sign would help.
Bold to assume normals would even read or understand what that means. Currently the NV 147 Postmiles give way at the end of NDOT maintenance and give way to NPS style Mile Markers.
But it could give the state an excuse when people complain to them.
Why would NDOT need an excuse for a segment of highway they don't maintain?
Probably less "excuse" and more "correct answer that can also be demonstrated on the road." And it makes sense, because when people complain about stuff, they always will blame whoever makes the product. Like in software design, anytime something goes wrong with a third-party iPhone app, Apple gets blamed, even though they don't make the app. That's just how people are. So NDOT will get blamed for any road issues, even the ones they don't have any authority to maintain.
How would any of this change the NDOT response to a compliant? The answer is going to be "not our road" either way.
So they can cite postmiles that physically exist to demonstrate where maintenance ends. As opposed to just saying "we don't maintain this part," I don't know. How many complaints they'd get regarding that section to begin with, I don't know.
Quote from: Quillz on September 21, 2025, 03:03:00 PMSo they can cite postmiles that physically exist to demonstrate where maintenance ends. As opposed to just saying "we don't maintain this part," I don't know. How many complaints they'd get regarding that section to begin with, I don't know.
Postmile CC 14.25 is literally at the pavement transition from the end of NV 147 at the National Recreation Area. "Sorry, we don't maintain Lake Mead Boulevard past Postmile 14.25 which is the start of NPS jurisdiction."
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on September 20, 2025, 06:11:31 PMIn the days of GPS however people will just be routed through there anyway
I suspect that many areas of National Parks and other lands have sparse signals, and those trying to follow their GPS device would get lost.
Quote from: GaryV on September 21, 2025, 04:40:09 PMQuote from: Roadgeekteen on September 20, 2025, 06:11:31 PMIn the days of GPS however people will just be routed through there anyway
I suspect that many areas of National Parks and other lands have sparse signals, and those trying to follow their GPS device would get lost.
I found that GPS sometimes works when there is no cell signal, it is hit or miss.
There's also the problem of "is there no postmile here because the city maintains it, or because the postmile got stolen"?
Quote from: GaryV on September 21, 2025, 04:40:09 PMQuote from: Roadgeekteen on September 20, 2025, 06:11:31 PMIn the days of GPS however people will just be routed through there anyway
I suspect that many areas of National Parks and other lands have sparse signals, and those trying to follow their GPS device would get lost.
Yeah, it's pretty hit-or-miss. One of the newer features Apple added to their iPhone is letting you download maps for offline use (took them long enough) Last year's iOS 18 specifically had a strong focus on hiking within national parks. There is also the NPS app that lets you download everything you'd need map wise ahead of time.
Offhand, I remember having good coverage all through Crater Lake. Lava Beds is also pretty good. Lassen was okay near the southern entrance (the main area), but nothing near the northern entrance.
Quote from: Quillz on Today at 01:26:34 AMQuote from: GaryV on September 21, 2025, 04:40:09 PMQuote from: Roadgeekteen on September 20, 2025, 06:11:31 PMIn the days of GPS however people will just be routed through there anyway
I suspect that many areas of National Parks and other lands have sparse signals, and those trying to follow their GPS device would get lost.
Yeah, it's pretty hit-or-miss. One of the newer features Apple added to their iPhone is letting you download maps for offline use (took them long enough) Last year's iOS 18 specifically had a strong focus on hiking within national parks. There is also the NPS app that lets you download everything you'd need map wise ahead of time.
Offhand, I remember having good coverage all through Crater Lake. Lava Beds is also pretty good. Lassen was okay near the southern entrance (the main area), but nothing near the northern entrance.
You have been able to download google maps maps for years.
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on Today at 01:28:50 AMQuote from: Quillz on Today at 01:26:34 AMQuote from: GaryV on September 21, 2025, 04:40:09 PMQuote from: Roadgeekteen on September 20, 2025, 06:11:31 PMIn the days of GPS however people will just be routed through there anyway
I suspect that many areas of National Parks and other lands have sparse signals, and those trying to follow their GPS device would get lost.
Yeah, it's pretty hit-or-miss. One of the newer features Apple added to their iPhone is letting you download maps for offline use (took them long enough) Last year's iOS 18 specifically had a strong focus on hiking within national parks. There is also the NPS app that lets you download everything you'd need map wise ahead of time.
Offhand, I remember having good coverage all through Crater Lake. Lava Beds is also pretty good. Lassen was okay near the southern entrance (the main area), but nothing near the northern entrance.
You have been able to download google maps maps for years.
Yes, but not Apple Maps. I don't use Google Maps as much.
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on September 21, 2025, 04:45:19 PMQuote from: GaryV on September 21, 2025, 04:40:09 PMQuote from: Roadgeekteen on September 20, 2025, 06:11:31 PMIn the days of GPS however people will just be routed through there anyway
I suspect that many areas of National Parks and other lands have sparse signals, and those trying to follow their GPS device would get lost.
I found that GPS sometimes works when there is no cell signal, it is hit or miss.
GPS works anywhere in the world unless you're in a deep canyon, especially if there's a lot of tree cover. Phones work wherever there are cell sites, although if you're in a deep canyon, that would require micro sites along the road, which aren't common in such places.
I, for one, don't see why a highway that isn't actually a US Route needs to be signed as a US Route.
If the NPS needs to sign US-20 within Yellowstone, then let them sign it with National Park route shields. There's nothing stopping them from designing them and using them.
Quote from: MUTCD, 11th EditionChapter 2D — Guide Signs — Conventional Roads
Section 2D.11 — Design of Route Signs
Standard:
01 — The design of standard route signs shall conform to the designs provided in the "Standard Highway Signs" publication (see Section 1A.05). The design of other route signs shall be established by the authority having jurisdiction and shall be in general conformance with the designs provided in the "Standard Highway Signs" publication.
17 — The design of the National Forest Route (M1-7) sign (see Figure 2D-4) shall be as detailed in the "Standard Highway Signs" publication (see Section 1A.05). Route signs for other park and forest roads shall be designed with an appropriate level of distinctiveness and adequate legibility, but in general compliance with the design principles for route signs and of a size compatible with other route signs used in common assemblies.
It would pretty simple to just modify the M1-7 sign, perhaps like this:
(https://i.imgur.com/kJFMpzk.png)