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National Boards => General Highway Talk => Topic started by: Quillz on October 30, 2010, 01:51:58 PM

Title: Route 0?
Post by: Quillz on October 30, 2010, 01:51:58 PM
Do any states have a Route 0? I know that AASHTO doesn't allow 0 to be used on either the Interstate or US Route networks, but every state generally maintains its own network of roads.

Frankly, though, I see no reason why there couldn't be an Interstate 0 or Route 0. It's a perfectly valid even number (could have 100, 200, 300, etc. as 3di) and would work very well as an even more southerly Interstate (south of 10) or the most northerly US Route (north of 2.) At least, it could have had the number been put to use when both systems were being planned.
Title: Re: Route 0?
Post by: Chris on October 30, 2010, 02:24:45 PM
There some route 0 roads in Europe, for example R0 as the ring road of Brussels and M0 as the Budapest beltway. I believe there is another A0 somewhere in Asia or the Caribbean, but I can't recall where.
Title: Re: Route 0?
Post by: vdeane on October 31, 2010, 01:03:51 PM
The mathematical reason: The interstate numbers are a subset of the set of positive integers, and since 0 isn't a positive integer, it can't be used.

The actual reason: I don't know.  It might be to "normalize" the grid system a little (there's one more north-south transcontinental possible than east-west).  It might also be because most people (who aren't programmers) start counting at 1.
Title: Re: Route 0?
Post by: Truvelo on October 31, 2010, 02:33:53 PM
Quote from: Chris on October 30, 2010, 02:24:45 PM
There some route 0 roads in Europe, for example R0 as the ring road of Brussels and M0 as the Budapest beltway. I believe there is another A0 somewhere in Asia or the Caribbean, but I can't recall where.

There's one in Sri Lanka.
Title: Re: Route 0?
Post by: Kacie Jane on October 31, 2010, 09:35:52 PM
Quote from: deanej on October 31, 2010, 01:03:51 PM
The mathematical reason: The interstate numbers are a subset of the set of positive integers, and since 0 isn't a positive integer, it can't be used.

The actual reason: I don't know.  It might be to "normalize" the grid system a little (there's one more north-south transcontinental possible than east-west).  It might also be because most people (who aren't programmers) start counting at 1.

Your mathematical reason fails, because while they are a subset of the positive integers, if we're arguing from a solely mathematical standpoint, they are also a subset of the non-negative integers, and for that matter, of all integers, rational numbers, etc.  (I have a sudden urge to change my avatar to the shield for Interstate Pi.)

Essentially what the original poster is asking is why the interstate numbers are thus far limited to the positive integers (also known as the counting numbers) and I have a feeling it's the last reason you gave.
Title: Re: Route 0?
Post by: Bickendan on October 31, 2010, 11:42:37 PM
I use Interstate Pi for some of my maps, along with Interstate i, e, Delta and Sigma, to fill in the more diagonal routes outside the grid proper.
Title: Re: Route 0?
Post by: agentsteel53 on October 31, 2010, 11:46:24 PM
yes, but is there an e, pi, i, 1 multiplex?  if so, is it with route 0?
Title: Re: Route 0?
Post by: Bickendan on October 31, 2010, 11:48:29 PM
There is now :twisted:
Title: Re: Route 0?
Post by: Scott5114 on October 31, 2010, 11:49:50 PM
Oklahoma's planning maps show a few SH-0s, as well as a SH-0B in Langston. None of them are signed, however. More likely the "SH-00" label is just to show that the route is state maintained but not numbered or marked.
Title: Re: Route 0?
Post by: NE2 on November 01, 2010, 12:34:43 AM
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fupload.wikimedia.org%2Fwikipedia%2Fcommons%2Fthumb%2F0%2F01%2FSSR_O_mo13.jpg%2F800px-SSR_O_mo13.jpg&hash=e2124519519a6d3312440eb72adb0d963863063e) (http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:SSR_O_mo13.jpg)
Close enough for me... (photo by Scott5114, cc-by-sa)
Title: Re: Route 0?
Post by: Quillz on November 01, 2010, 02:05:11 AM
Zero is neither positive nor negative but it is an even number, and thus I don't see why AASHTO couldn't have had an east-west Route/Interstate 0, other than them just finding it to cause confusion or something.
Title: Re: Route 0?
Post by: nyratk1 on November 01, 2010, 02:42:03 AM
I want a Route π, it would be delicious.
Title: Re: Route 0?
Post by: Quillz on November 01, 2010, 03:25:27 AM
Quote from: nyratk1 on November 01, 2010, 02:42:03 AM
I want a Route π, it would be delicious.
I know some countries, like New Zealand, have a Route R, while other have Route <letter>.
Title: Re: Route 0?
Post by: Scott5114 on November 01, 2010, 09:53:17 AM
Quote from: Quillz on November 01, 2010, 02:05:11 AM
Zero is neither positive nor negative but it is an even number, and thus I don't see why AASHTO couldn't have had an east-west Route/Interstate 0, other than them just finding it to cause confusion or something.

Well, if you define an "even number" to be any number divisible by two, it is an even number, but then again it is also an odd number, because 0 is divisible by anything. I guess.
Title: Re: Route 0?
Post by: agentsteel53 on November 01, 2010, 10:25:02 AM
Quote from: Scott5114 on November 01, 2010, 09:53:17 AMbut then again it is also an odd number, because 0 is divisible by anything.

that is not the definition of an odd number.  odd numbers are those of the form 2N + 1, where N is an integer.  0 is not of that form.
Title: Re: Route 0?
Post by: Truvelo on November 01, 2010, 12:13:51 PM
Here's (http://maps.google.com/?ie=UTF8&ll=44.590876,-89.747134&spn=0.047371,0.144196&z=14&layer=c&cbll=44.590876,-89.747134&panoid=1wZpHKYleXJABFy_c_lxag&cbp=12,230.03,,1,-0.92) one, although I cheated slightly :-D
Title: Re: Route 0?
Post by: agentsteel53 on November 01, 2010, 12:19:14 PM
I believe Wisconsin features County OO and County OOO as well.
Title: Re: Route 0?
Post by: mightyace on November 01, 2010, 12:34:14 PM
Quote from: Bickendan on October 31, 2010, 11:42:37 PM
I use Interstate Pi for some of my maps, along with Interstate i, e, Delta and Sigma, to fill in the more diagonal routes outside the grid proper.

Does that mean that Interstate Pi has Pi-holes instead of potholes?  :-D
Title: Re: Route 0?
Post by: Bickendan on November 02, 2010, 12:03:41 AM
Yes -- strawberry rhubarb, apple cinnamon, pumpkin, cherry... :meh:
Title: Re: Route 0?
Post by: english si on November 02, 2010, 08:17:26 AM
Don't forget Steak and Kidney, Fish, Chicken and Mushroom and, at Christmas, mincemeat (which doesn't contain any meat nor is savoury) :P
Title: Re: Route 0?
Post by: realjd on November 02, 2010, 10:03:39 AM
Quote from: agentsteel53 on October 31, 2010, 11:46:24 PM
yes, but is there an e, pi, i, 1 multiplex?  if so, is it with route 0?

Come on now. That would be highly irrational.
Title: Re: Route 0?
Post by: on_wisconsin on November 02, 2010, 10:20:51 AM
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fupload.wikimedia.org%2Fwikipedia%2Fcommons%2Fthumb%2Fd%2Fd6%2FWIS_County_OO.svg%2F384px-WIS_County_OO.svg.png&hash=8060bf086bb754ffab0497ccc41d4eafcf4cef4e)
:sombrero:
Title: Re: Route 0?
Post by: Alps on November 02, 2010, 09:50:52 PM
Quote from: english si on November 02, 2010, 08:17:26 AM
Don't forget Steak and Kidney, Fish, Chicken and Mushroom and, at Christmas, mincemeat (which doesn't contain any meat nor is savoury) :P
Mincemeat can contain meat.  I should know.
Title: Re: Route 0?
Post by: english si on November 02, 2010, 10:26:29 PM
Not normally, any more, though.
Title: Re: Route 0?
Post by: Ian on November 02, 2010, 10:31:38 PM
Don't mean to hijack the thread, but I have a curious question about Wisconsin and Missouri's lettered routes. Do they ever cross the capital "I"s to prevent it from getting mixed up with a "1"? Do they even have a route I or route II?
Title: Re: Route 0?
Post by: Quillz on November 02, 2010, 10:32:36 PM
Quote from: PennDOTFan on November 02, 2010, 10:31:38 PM
Don't mean to hijack the thread, but I have a curious question about Wisconsin and Missouri's lettered routes. Do they ever cross the capital "I"s to prevent it from getting mixed up with a "1"?
Doesn't the "1" under both FHWA Series and Clearview have that little tail to distinguish it from a lowercase L or uppercase I?
Title: Re: Route 0?
Post by: Alps on November 02, 2010, 10:42:39 PM
Quote from: PennDOTFan on November 02, 2010, 10:31:38 PM
Don't mean to hijack the thread, but I have a curious question about Wisconsin and Missouri's lettered routes. Do they ever cross the capital "I"s to prevent it from getting mixed up with a "1"? Do they even have a route I or route II?

Ilion, NY is signed with a crossed capital I to prevent it from reading |||on.  On the other hand, I don't believe Illinois does that with their state name.
Title: Re: Route 0?
Post by: Scott5114 on November 03, 2010, 12:53:25 AM
Missouri doesn't use G, I, Q, S, or X in their lettered routes, to prevent confusion with 6, 1, O, and 5 respectively. (No idea why they don't use X.)
Title: Re: Route 0?
Post by: agentsteel53 on November 03, 2010, 12:57:22 AM
Quote from: Scott5114 on November 03, 2010, 12:53:25 AM(No idea why they don't use X.)

looks too much like a digit "3".

seriously, I have no idea why.  Is X used for planning purposes as a route whose number/letter designation has not yet been finalized?
Title: Re: Route 0?
Post by: Scott5114 on November 03, 2010, 12:59:56 AM
I don't know for sure. In the article that I gleaned the information from, the author just made a lame joke about "nobody wants to drive on an X-rated highway". I'm sure if someone really wanted to know, you could email MoDOT and they'd answer. I know R is generally reserved for roads to recreation areas, but that too was outright stated in the article.
Title: Re: Route 0?
Post by: on_wisconsin on November 03, 2010, 02:16:24 AM
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fupload.wikimedia.org%2Fwikipedia%2Fcommons%2Fthumb%2F6%2F6a%2FWIS_County_I.svg%2F200px-WIS_County_I.svg.png&hash=45e7d46575d0a55324bedec6f9634392ca22cfb5)(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fupload.wikimedia.org%2Fwikipedia%2Fcommons%2Fthumb%2F8%2F8a%2FWIS_County_X.svg%2F200px-WIS_County_X.svg.png&hash=3e106b29454d18fcd0778cc0e4d9bf6909d084fc)
There is not a highway numbered "1" (in WI) so the letter I works fine as a county road marker and just for added fun:
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fupload.wikimedia.org%2Fwikipedia%2Fcommons%2Fthumb%2Fb%2Fb8%2FWIS_County_XX.svg%2F200px-WIS_County_XX.svg.png&hash=f1be626d35a314e590f412ce8a097fb5ca6350df)(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fupload.wikimedia.org%2Fwikipedia%2Fcommons%2Fthumb%2F3%2F3e%2FWIS_County_XXX.svg%2F200px-WIS_County_XXX.svg.png&hash=4d98009b1e9840e335aefcedd2db46a486cab831)
Title: Re: Route 0?
Post by: mightyace on November 03, 2010, 11:01:40 AM
County XXX could also be a bootleggers' route.  :sombrero:

I remember in many of those old cartoons, alcohol was in this jug with "XXX" on it.
Title: Re: Route 0?
Post by: Andrew T. on November 03, 2010, 01:41:02 PM
Quote from: PennDOTFan on November 02, 2010, 10:31:38 PM
Don't mean to hijack the thread, but I have a curious question about Wisconsin and Missouri's lettered routes. Do they ever cross the capital "I"s to prevent it from getting mixed up with a "1"? Do they even have a route I or route II?

From what I've seen, most of the "County I" signs in Wisconsin do actually put serifs on the letter.  (Here's (https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=2090.0) a picture of one.)  That said, a lot of county route markers are furnished by county sign shops and have fonts that are a little "off."

I'm aware of a few County IIs around the state...don't know of any III, though!
Title: Re: Route 0?
Post by: Chicagosuburban on July 15, 2011, 03:53:27 PM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:I-0.svg (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:I-0.svg)  :D
Title: Re: Route 0?
Post by: Desert Man on August 07, 2011, 09:12:24 PM
The US interstate and highway systems never considered zero (0) a real number to ever be used/commissioned. Note they start from 5 to 99 (from West to East) and 4 to 96 (from South to North), to leave out the first 3 numbers is an interest of mine I pondered. In the highway system: 1 to 101 (East coast to west) and 2 to 98 (North to south) the virtual opposite of the Interstate system. The state and country road system have their own rules, they can decide on what to name and number a road, but be cautious with the number #13 and the triple-K associated with a hate group.
Title: Re: Route 0?
Post by: texaskdog on August 07, 2011, 09:19:47 PM
Quote from: Mike D boy on August 07, 2011, 09:12:24 PM
The US interstate and highway systems never considered zero (0) a real number to ever be used/commissioned. Note they start from 5 to 99 (from West to East) and 4 to 96 (from South to North), to leave out the first 3 numbers is an interest of mine I pondered. In the highway system: 1 to 101 (East coast to west) and 2 to 98 (North to south) the virtual opposite of the Interstate system. The state and country road system have their own rules, they can decide on what to name and number a road, but be cautious with the number #13 and the triple-K associated with a hate group.

Funny how the US system considered 0 & 1 to be the important numbers, yet the interstate uses 5 & 0 as the alpha numbers.
Title: Re: Route 0?
Post by: Zmapper on August 07, 2011, 10:03:13 PM
Sorta related, but the bus route along Broadway in Denver is Route 0. The reason for this is because of the address system in the Denver region. The center point is Broadway and Ellsworth, with the numbers increasing accordingly as you travel from that intersection.

Because Denver is a grid city, RTD tries to match bus route numbers to the roads address. So Route 6 would travel on the street that is 6 blocks from the center intersection, Route 40 on 4000, Route 120 on 12000, etc. (Does that make sense?) As such, because Broadway is 000, the bus route number is 0.
Title: Re: Route 0?
Post by: mgk920 on August 08, 2011, 12:12:00 AM
Quote from: on_wisconsin on November 02, 2010, 10:20:51 AM
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fupload.wikimedia.org%2Fwikipedia%2Fcommons%2Fthumb%2Fd%2Fd6%2FWIS_County_OO.svg%2F384px-WIS_County_OO.svg.png&hash=8060bf086bb754ffab0497ccc41d4eafcf4cef4e)
:sombrero:

Northland Ave across Appleton's north side (late 1930s-1960 routing of US 41) is Outagamie County 'OO'.  The locals call it "Double Oh".

Quote from: Andrew T. on November 03, 2010, 01:41:02 PM
Quote from: PennDOTFan on November 02, 2010, 10:31:38 PM
Don't mean to hijack the thread, but I have a curious question about Wisconsin and Missouri's lettered routes. Do they ever cross the capital "I"s to prevent it from getting mixed up with a "1"? Do they even have a route I or route II?

From what I've seen, most of the "County I" signs in Wisconsin do actually put serifs on the letter.  (Here's (https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=2090.0) a picture of one.)  That said, a lot of county route markers are furnished by county sign shops and have fonts that are a little "off."

I'm aware of a few County IIs around the state...don't know of any III, though!

Winnebago County 'II' (road is formerly WI 110 and WI 150) is marked with signs like that.

Anyways, there is no confusion with that in Wisconsin as ALL county highways in the state are lettered.

Also, I like Wisconsin's standard county shield much, much, much more than the MUTCD pentagon.

:cheers:

Mike
Title: Re: Route 0?
Post by: pianocello on August 08, 2011, 08:21:31 AM
Quote from: Scott5114 on November 03, 2010, 12:53:25 AM
Missouri doesn't use G, I, Q, S, or X in their lettered routes, to prevent confusion with 6, 1, O, and 5 respectively. (No idea why they don't use X.)

Then why is there a highway OO? http://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&ll=36.662756,-93.416061&spn=0,0.027466&z=16&layer=c&cbll=36.66284,-93.416066&panoid=dCi-CgUGv7heGF_jImGWbA&cbp=12,217.05,,0,7.42
Title: Re: Route 0?
Post by: Scott5114 on August 08, 2011, 09:45:22 AM
Quote from: pianocello on August 08, 2011, 08:21:31 AM
Quote from: Scott5114 on November 03, 2010, 12:53:25 AM
Missouri doesn't use G, I, Q, S, or X in their lettered routes, to prevent confusion with 6, 1, O, and 5 respectively. (No idea why they don't use X.)

Then why is there a highway OO? http://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&ll=36.662756,-93.416061&spn=0,0.027466&z=16&layer=c&cbll=36.66284,-93.416066&panoid=dCi-CgUGv7heGF_jImGWbA&cbp=12,217.05,,0,7.42

Letter O is used. Q is not, used, however, because it could be confused with letter O. Apparently MoDOT doesn't consider letter O being confused with zero to be enough of an issue to warrant not using letter O in lettered routes. (There's plenty of single O routes too–I've clinched Greene County's.)
Title: Re: Route 0?
Post by: formulanone on August 08, 2011, 04:26:38 PM
Quote from: realjd on November 02, 2010, 10:03:39 AM
Come on now. That would be highly irrational.

Yeah, keep it Real.

(//www.aaroads.com/shields/img/FL/FL194800011.jpg)
Title: Re: Route 0?
Post by: thenetwork on August 12, 2011, 12:09:36 AM
Quote from: agentsteel53 on November 01, 2010, 12:19:14 PM
I believe Wisconsin features County OO and County OOO as well.

Isn't the latter route (OOO) more commonly known as the "Merv Griffin Highway"?   :-D

You young'uns probably won't get that one.